 I welcome to the 28th meeting of the Criminal Justice Committee. We have no apologies this morning, and our first item of business is pre-budget scrutiny of the Scottish Government's forthcoming budget for 2023-2024. I refer members to papers 1, 2 and 3. I welcome to the meeting this morning Wendy Sinclair-Geeben, her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons for Scotland. I like, if I may, to just move straight into questions, and I'll open up with a very general question, if I may. It's really just to get your overarching thoughts on the implications of a potential flat cash resource settlement for the next few financial years, so I'm just going to hand straight over to you, Wendy. Not a problem. First of all, I think that it's extremely concerning for the prison service, in fact for justice overall, but if you think what the prison service do is they hold the most dangerous, the most violent and the most vulnerable people in our society, that's a reality. There's a good proportion that our victims themselves, there's a good proportion that have significant mental health issues, and what we're saying is a flat cash budget which, over four years, will reduce the overall budget hugely. I'm deeply concerned that many human rights breaches will occur, I'm deeply concerned that we risk a prisoner disturbance, and I'm deeply concerned that staff will be reduced to such an extent that we'll end up with what we would like to call humane containment and not actually protect community safety, because if you're bringing people into prison and you're then doing nothing with them, then you are releasing them back into society angrier than they were when they came in. That's not appropriate. I, as a person in the community, would like to think that the prison service is working with them to reduce the risk when they leave. So I think that a flat cash budget has massive implications for society, as well as for the individuals, as well as for the staff. Thanks very much for that. I suppose that my next question would be a similar overarching question, but specifically in relation to the implications for the capital budget, so in terms of current and future budgets for the prison service, I'm interested just to get a very general overview from your perspective. We see an ageing infrastructure in a goodly number of prisons, you know, Barlinny, Perth, the older ones, Highland and Dumfries, Greenock is shocking. The reality is that I would not like to think as a Scottish nation that we spend a huge amount of money building new prisons to cope. I would much rather that we had a look at radical justice reform and see if we can reduce the population so we can close the old ones and not have to replace the infrastructure. Prisons are hugely expensive. You know, there was a 2002 report which said that the cost of recidivism, somebody going back through the courts and into prison, is £200,000. Well, if we can reduce that and we can stop people going to prison, we will save a lot of money. That's not saying that you should in any way stop people going to prison, who frankly deserve to be there, but there are ways and means, I think, of reducing our infrastructure to meet demand that is better than we have at the moment. I know that other members are particularly interested in the issues around capital budget prison estate, but I can just ask one follow-up question in relation to that. In terms of the older sections of the prison estate as it stands at the moment, thinking ahead in terms of budget provision going forward into the next year, what are your main concerns about, in particular, that older section, if you like? There are two prisons that give me considerable concern. One is Greenock. For those of you who haven't visited Greenock, there are a vast number of cells that are out of use because the damp comes into the prisons and makes them uninhabitable. They roof their suffers ingress regularly and they're having to effects and repair. The cost of maintaining Greenock, I think, outweighs its value. It's an expensive site. It's a good site. I think there are opportunities to redevelop that would give money back into the prison service. Barlinnie is our biggest prison and it copes with overspill from every other prison. If there's any other issue, it does the surge in there. The cells are small. I would not like to live 22 hours a day with a total stranger and a tiny cell that they have. Against that, it's well run. It's organised. It costs a fortune to maintain each year because it's old. The plumbing is worrying. I mean, I certainly, when I went there, was stunned by the dilapidation of the basics of the prison. Not, I mean, every effort is made to keep the cells and the living areas clean, tidy, well decorated, etc. But you know, when you walk around at night and a little family of rats goes with you or you walk down to chaplaincy and the plaster dust lands on your hair, I just think it's a question of time before it actually collapses and we are then stuck because it's the biggest prison in Scotland. So I do worry about that. Thanks very much. Yes, I'm start evidence. So I'm going to just hand straight over to members and I'm going to bring in Pauline MacNeill first and then I'll bring in Katie Clark. So Pauline. Thank you very much. Good morning. You've spoken about Berlin Prison. I have a local regional interest in it. Just to add to what you've said already for the records, there's only five cells suitable for disabled prisoners. There are no shared spaces to sit and converse with other prisoners at mealtime on all meals. I think that this is actually quite shocking that all meals have to be eaten in the prisoners' own cells and it may, whether two prisoners breach the standards of space. So not much can be done about that right now, I imagine. But how concerned would you be if the timetable for the new build were to slip and have you had any discussions that would give cause for concern about the timetable? I appreciate that in the hands of the Scottish Prison Service but given what you've said imagine you have a strong interest in that as well. I think there's every possibility it'll slip basically because it's going to be difficult to source materials and labour to actually manage to meet the time frames and that's true of all building projects at the moment. They're certainly managing that well and the new HMP Glasgow looks quite exciting and future-proofed so I think that's a good thing. I do hope it doesn't slip but equally Barlinnie has been coping. If it does slip they'll go on coping. So that's the way it is. I don't know if you've looked at the maintenance budget for these old prisons but it's really quite shocking. Do you see any other options in the short term other than what you've said which is the final tenetist to prison? I think if we look at the prison population and we look at executive release and we look at remand and we look at a real radical rethink I think we can reduce the population considerably. You particularly picked out Greenock and described the conditions there as shocking and in your report last year you said that Greenock was an urgent need for replacement and clearly ill-suited to a modern prison system but last year the cabinet secretary said that it was unlikely that the Scottish Prison Service would be able to commence replacement before 2025-26. Our calculations are the kind of cuts we're looking at for the justice sector are in the region of 20 per cent over the coming years so if it was going to be 2025-26 last year it suggests that it could be some time before there's any serious proposals on Greenock. Is that a massive concern and what do you think the implications are going to be given the current condition of the prison if there's not substantial investment? We're going back into Greenock on inspection next March. If it's in the same condition as it was at our last inspection I will be pulling the health and safety executive in with me. By the way it's still one of the best prisons the staff prisoner relationships and the things they achieve are really excellent but it's a small prison you could actually disperse the prisoners elsewhere. I don't think they'd be very happy about that because they're close to home but there are possibilities. I think it's a shame that HMP Inverclyde wasn't continued with that at the time. That's very helpful information and you've said very clearly that you believe there needs to be radical justice reform. Politicians in the Scottish Parliament since its creation have been arguing for that. It's fair to say that many politicians in the Scottish Parliament since the creation indeed before the creation of the Scottish Parliament were saying that actually there wasn't really a need for a full women's prison in Scotland that actually that wasn't the right way to dispose of women prisoners and that for many male prisoners actually prison wasn't the right way to deal with offending behaviour. Why do you think it is that despite the fact that these debates have been going on for many years and those debates are continuing that there just hasn't been that kind of radical justice reform you're talking about? Why do you think it's not been possible to drive change in the system? Do you have any thoughts on that? Many thoughts, some of which aren't polite. I think there is a cultural reluctance. We are, as in Scotland, a punitive culture to some degree. I think there is an I bean culture. I think there is a reality that it would require significant research to actually look at it. It's very easy to look at Norway and say look at Haldan prison, to look at Holland and say they reduced their prison population by 40 per cent and decriminalised various drugs. We're not Dutch and we're not Norwegian. We are Scottish so therefore there needs to be a justice reform agenda that is particularly suited to us and to no one else. But it's difficult to do when you're firefighting and the prison service and the justice service has been firefighting for some time. There's a backlog in the courts, there's been overcrowding, never mind the pandemic, never mind the cut stuff at the moment but if you look back for the last 10 years there's been a degree of firefighting and it's difficult when you're firefighting to stand back and say what could we do. I mean I very briefly looked some years ago and said if we took out all the people in prison who were there for substance use related offending that wasn't violent, wasn't domestic abuse, how many would we get rid of? How many would we reduce by and given all the kind of current evidence around you know seeing substance use as a health problem rather than a criminal problem that's you know that's something to look at but that kind of deep justice reform needs to be done despite the firefighting but needs to be Scottish. It really does you know we're not we really need to think about what's best for Scotland and if we end up thinking having a very high prison population is the right way forward then we have to invest in it. You said very clearly there's some people that just have to be in prison the nature of their offending the nature of what they are as a human being that their violent nature means they have to be incarcerated and I think we all accept that's the case there is a need for prisons but I think we also believe that there are people in prison really now that shouldn't be there and what we've been trying to find out is really the data on that in terms of trying to have a better understanding of who's actually in prison and what they're in prison for how good is our data would you say because that's something that the committee is very interested in in terms of trying to actually take a view in terms of what could be achieved in trying to look at other disposals because clearly there's some people that the only possible disposal is incarceration but there are also people there for a place of safety because there is no inpatient bed there are people there with significant mental health that are identified as needing to be inpatient but they're held in prison because there are no inpatient beds there are people there who are repeat offenders time and time and time again for whom prison isn't working and maybe we need to look at why you know I think the data you receive is good the problem is the justice system isn't digitised and it's not jointly digitised so it's very hard to see where people come in I mean if you look at a simple example in polemont they ask people as they come in if they've ever been care experienced they then went through a process of ringing all the local authorities that all the young people came from the care experience to people who self-identified as care experienced or were identified by social services on the way in were about 16 percent when they went round the local authorities it was about 46 percent but you know how can you judge the data unless you actually do the data mining so there's a lot of data we don't get another good example of that is how many people are out of cell for how many hours a day in the private sector they've got like barcodes and computer systems and they go tick to tick there you are but that isn't true in the public sector so actually gathering that is onerous and time consuming so the data you're receiving isn't wholly accurate I don't think and isn't rich enough for you be able to be able to mine it for the information you need yet could I just ask one further question I will be brief when we've spoken to judges one of the things they've said is that for women prisoners appearing in particular women appearing from custody often the reasons that custodial sentences are given are almost for paternalistic reasons that there's a view that they don't know quite what else to do they're not convinced prison is actually the right way to deal with a particular woman offender but but there's no other options and also women tend to get longer sentences for similar offenses to men have you any thoughts on that because obviously prison isn't necessarily the right solution but also has massive budgetary implications massive but I absolutely love the new women's custody units I just think they are a step forward in thinking I would love to see more supervised bail I'm delighted that we've at last got a family rehab centre there are still some women who need to be in prison no arguing and that's always difficult to manage but I do think having a greater degree of cheaper community options that allows informed decision making and for those decision makers to be able to have options is important and there's tons of expertise out of there who can advise you more wisely than I can thank you thanks very much Katie I'm going to bring in Jamie Creen and then I'll bring in Fulkin McGregor Jamie thank you convener and good morning good morning thank you for your written submission I just want to start first of all with a quote from your own submission and it backs up something that Teresa Medhurst told us last week you say that it's difficult to avoid the conclusion and paraphrasing that a flat cash settlement could lead to a rapid deterioration of safety Teresa Medhurst last week from the Scottish Prison Service said that it would impact on things such as violence and vulnerability what exactly do you mean by that comment and what would a flat cash settlement look like in terms of the volatility of prison sure I think you have to look at the historical research around prison disturbances and you know if you look way back to Learmont and Woodcock and then to all of the others what you'll find justice will work to report theirs particularly interesting what you find is a confluence of issues coming together that then explodes so if you have for instance we almost had it a confluence in january with the potential for industrial relation strike the potential for the highway in cell phones being removed the potential for the 300 free minutes being removed the high cost of living which means families can't support their ones in prison as well or a visitor's often the prisoners can't team the bits and pieces they buy for themselves prices have gone up the wages won't have gone up that's a confluence you then have the confluence on the staff side where you've got a cost of living increase we know staff who are working in the prisons are already using food bank you've got a sense of legitimacy is what's happening to us fair you know are we getting the same pay rise as the nurses the police whatever in and you get the same sense of legitimacy with prisoners so if you are unable to run what I would call the extras in the prison but aren't extras the offending behaviour programs the visits the you know the extra gym the bringing the community groups in which cost money what then you're then going to lose a sense of legitimacy and if you've got morale low because frankly staff are tired at the moment they're exhausted after the pandemic I think the confluence of all of that almost exactly matches the research which showed that previous prisoner disturbances happened now everybody's working towards making sure that won't happen everybody there's no argument the amount of work going ahead is huge but it is a risk and I think we would be naive to not think of it as a risk so just to be clear what we heard from the Scottish Prison Service and the evidence too is was that a flat cash settlement would mean they would need to revert to near Covid type lockdown scenarios when prison pretty much getting rid of all of the good stuff that does happen rehabilitation third parties third sector and ensuring that people come out of prison better than they went in effectively and all of that would cease to exist would that be a concern huge so if you think of someone who's already volatile violent and dangerous you do nothing with them in there you're going to release them angrier you know in terms of community safety it's a mistake sounds worrying I wanted to touch on two local issues one is HMP Grunoch as Katie Clark mentioned it's disappointing there's no plans for replacement understand these things come at huge capital costs we know we learned that the cost of HMP Highland is nearly trebled already in cost it probably will rise further these things do tend to cost a lot more than they initially are estimated but nonetheless it sounds to me like things are quite dire in Grunoch do you or which other agency has the ability to shut it down if you're not I don't have the power to shut it down I can recommend it being shut down that's as far as I can go I don't have any powers and that's I'm not like the care inspectorate if you weren't if you were happy with what you see in the sense that you feel that that was the best option is that something you would recommend happily you would happily yes unfortunately happily yes and where would all the prisoners go that's not that many I mean my job is not population management but you could move the women into polmont and you could use move the men into a combination of Kilmarnock, Lomawson, Barlinnie not ideal perhaps no no it's not because it takes them away from their family indeed the other issue I wanted to question is that there are obviously two private prisons in the estate what's your general view on what you see when you go into these prisons that are run privately versus publicly you'll be aware obviously the government has chosen to take HMP Kilmarnock presumably back into public service one of things we've struggled with is getting any justification for that decision and the argument seems to be around cost however you said in your an earlier answer that we may not have full sight of everything we need in terms of detail would you say that HMP Kilmarnock is currently good value for money what's the situation in Scotland right so why why do you think the government would want to take it back in house to sbs ideology in what respect in the sense of having private sector providers run public sector for the public sector even if they're running a better service more cheaply I think that is the ideology that's what i'm guessing anyway I have to declare an interest here I used to be the governor of Kilmarnock and I also used to work with sarco so in terms of hmi ps we are completely neutral on public or private prisons we inspect them and do everything exactly the same way when we inspected Kilmarnock our accused myself because I felt it was inappropriate that I had I mean if it came out with a good report it would be my fault it came out with the bad report it would be my fault so you know understood but when you go in there you don't have an independent neutral role you go in and inspect these prisons what do you see when you go into adiwell or Kilmarnock we're just in the middle of doing adiwell we'll wait and see I'd like to wait until we finish the inspection before I made any comment on adiwell Kilmarnock is well run well organized safe good prison okay thank you and my last question at this stage for a person are you aware of how much it's going to cost to transition it into the public sector I'm not but I'd love to know I can only make a rile guess but I suggest you ask odd at Scotland to look at that it's certainly in millions would you be prepared to go on the record today with an estimate I'd rather not but I transitioned HMP Blakenhouse back into the English prison service in 2000 and that was between 10 million and 12 million or thereabouts somewhere just in the tens of millions okay I'm sure with the committee we'll discuss that in more detail and with the cabinet secretary no doubt my last point is around women in prisons you in your in submission said that women in particular at the stream end of waiting times and if necessary requiring high secure inpatient treatment could be transferred to England or are being transferred to England is that a capacity problem in Scotland or what's the situation yes if you look at the baron review they recommended that the state hospital re-established itself as being able to take high secure forensic women and it's because if they are then they have to go to Rampton or go to England all right so there are there are facilities in Scotland but they're full or they're not facilities the moment the state hospital does not take women and the baron review looked at that and suggested that they should in future take women and what are the consequences of sending people to England in terms of psychiatric care good but away from family away from friends away from a familiar environment so that's helpful I'll let others come in maybe come back later that's okay thanks jimmy and just to mention that I think we will be coming back to some questions about private prisons in due course but just a thinking follow-up to some of Jamie's earlier questions I think Pauline you were wanting to come in and then I'll bring in Fulton after that Pauline thank you very much it was a following from Jamie Greene's question because when I read the papers the one jumped out at me of all the alarming things I read was what you had to say about the heightened risk of prisoner disturbances you didn't mention words there at all did you because I think there is a heightened risk I really do but I mean I'm well aware that everybody's aware of that risk the prison service have been working flat out to develop contingency plans you know looking at extreme measures if necessary of involving the police I'm aware the Scottish Government is aware of it you know I do know that they're looking in every way at how they can mitigate it prevent it make sure it doesn't happen and if it does happen what they do to to manage it so yeah I'm sure you're absolutely right but I just wanted to get on the record which is what I think what I'm taking from this I wanted to make sure that I've understood correctly so you've said that adverse prisoner reactions are both traumatic and costly you see in your submission the cost of prison rights in England between April and May 1986 were estimated by the Government to be in the region of 5.5 million and in the case of a riot in HMP Birmingham 2016 it's across the Government and the private sector operator 6 million but you've said in your submission that there's a financial consideration here as well as a public safety consideration and I'm taking that from what you've said and I just wanted to get you to speak to that yes do you have any further concerns that I mean the fact you put it in your submission have to draw conclusion that it is a big concern of yours that if this flat budget is not adjusted then we have to fees that possibility I think you're under real pressure financially and you're going to have to take tough and hard decisions but it really worries me about community safety you know what what you hope I mean the current recidivism rate isn't very hard to tackle I find it difficult to get the exact figures but you know if we gathered the how many people return to prison within two years statistic which is quite an interesting one and then you can benchmark with many other countries how much of the people not coming back into prison is because of the work that's been done in prison you know and if we're taking all that away then we're then putting people back in community that will commit more crimes you know and at the end of the day it's the victims that are important here you know and it's not just the victims who are the subject of crime but many many people in prison particularly women are themselves victims you know and I just think it really worries me that if we're going to strip away all the good stuff what you're releasing back into the community because most people are released back into the community are people who are angry and that's not fair on the community so given what you said if the justice committee and it has still half a discussion about how it was wanted if the justice committee was the same on with other things the issue that you raised here about the extras that prisoners get keeps the prison regime quiet or in check and the legitimacy issue I thought I picked up on that word quite strongly if the justice committee were to say in its report that they felt these were important factors from your submission for the government to take into account when they are considering what they might strip away you'd be pleased to read that presumably thrilled absolutely thrilled thank you very much okay thanks I'm going to test Fulton's patience and I'm going to just bring in Rona but then I will hand over to Fulton I've just done a thanks convener just a very very quick follow-up really from following on from Pauline's line of questioning about prison disturbances and the high risk etc can you maybe just clarify what would lead to that then so is that is would it be lack of purposeful activity more restrictions you know what impact would lack of finances make to lead to that if you could maybe outline a few instances if you look at prisons at the moment if you're on remand or certainly pre Covid if you were on remand you weren't entitled to go to many activities and you certainly weren't entitled to get paid for them and that's in the prison rules so you're already taking people who are tangling with the criminal justice system they've already got themselves into prison on remand and you're not tackling the criminogenic need obviously you can't tackle the offending behaviour because they're still innocent but you can tackle substance misuse you can tackle education you can tackle developing a work ethic you can tackle housing you can tackle legal issues so much you can do if you then add to that that you're taking the convicted population and you're saying we're really restricting your ability to go to the gym to go to work to go to do all the other things and all of those criminogenic factors that led those people to tangle with the police in the first stage are not being addressed which means that they then go out and are frankly likely to do the same thing again i was think of me in chocolate you know i'm a complete addict with chocolate and i give it up now and again and then i go back to it you know i've never actually altered my behaviour enough to give up chocolate and so if i can't do it then what hope have you got if you're living in a society that or are living in your own little group of society where poverty drugs lack of education lack of a work ethic are sheer indicators of why you tackle in the criminal justice system already so it's it's a captive audience theory isn't it but it's something i do believe in okay thank you thanks thanks very much filton over to you no problem convener thanks very much but my question in good morning when they do our question actually egos back to katie clart's line of questioning a wee bit ago and that's around the reform and how possibly some upcoming reforms that we this committee will be looking at could link into the budget process that we're here to obviously talk about so um very very soon we'll be starting the bail on release from custody bill that you'll be aware of of a fairly big impact i imagine on the um or it's intended to have a fairly big impact on the prison population i'm not we obviously need to wait and see how we'll pan out and then a bit later on in this term the proposed criminal justice reform bill which i think's you know a wee mix and match of various things that have been talked about for a while as katie clart said have you got any thoughts i'm not really wanting you to speak about those bills as such because they'll go through the normal process in the bill the bill one will be starting soon but just if you've had any early thoughts either through your own self or through discussions with the prison service how these might impact budget implications for the um or is it too difficult to say just now but or is there any thought about it and so really in terms of the budget i'm hoping it leads to a reduction in budget to have alternatives for decision makers to actually put someone on a tag to look at a bail hostel to look at residential rehab so that they don't have to go to prison all of those are cheaper options so i really hope that the bail and release bill actually allows the possibility to reduce the budget you know properly i haven't done any of the financial working on that frankly i don't have time or the expertise but it to me it's self-evident that if we can reduce the remand population and increase the bail and the tag population we will have achieved an overall reduction in the budget so i'm very much in favour of it or broadly in favour of it so yeah and i think that would seem to be the the governance move in that in that direction as well and obviously we will scrutinise that more as it comes through but do you feel then that given this bill is coming up before parliament shortly do you think it's too early though for you know the flat cash settlement you know that the bill would need to be through and in an operation or do you feel that there's a there's a hope that this bill could inevitably reduce the budget and that's perhaps why the flat cash settlement is there for the prison service wouldn't it be wonderful if it could reduce it enough that the flat cash settlement is only for one year but i haven't done the impact assessment on that and i don't think anybody else has so but it needs to be done i always think of justice as a pipeline you know so what you put in at one end where does the impact further down the road you know and the problem with having alternatives to remand is that the return and investment isn't going to be fast enough for a flat cash budget and that's the bit that worries me okay thanks for that can we now do have one other related question but i don't know if you want me to do it just now or later on maybe wait till later on it's about the it's a separate issue it's a separate issue yeah okay i'll bring in later on okay i'm gonna bring in Russell Finlay and then i'll come in with some questions about efficiencies thank you very much um i'd like to just continue on the line of questioning in relation to greenic prison i think you said something along the lines of you if you go back in there and it's in the condition it was in before you would bring the hse in with you and then you suggested to jamie green that if it was particularly bad you would be happy to see it not happy sorry but we'd be willing to see it closed down if need be does the hse have that power i think they do but i wouldn't be able to say that i wouldn't be able to say which under which article that they would be able to do that but i would need the evidence to back up my recommendation which is why i would need the hse right is that the first time you've even considered the likelihood of having to close a facility yes so why has it got into such a poor state i'm not sure why it's got into such a poor state and when i spoke to the facilities maintenance manager at the last inspection of greenic he wasn't sure either they have a problem with damp coming through the walls and they don't know why or why they can't stop it you know so they've put a huge amount of effort into all sorts of technical solutions to identify the reasons of why it's happening in relation to barlinnie i was speaking to a prison officer who's echoing much of what you've said about the state of the facilities there and they were speculating how much money is currently being spent i think you might have referred in passing to how much was being spent on keeping it functional do you have any figures and in addition do you think this is really throwing good money after bad or is there no real option that there's nothing else they can do i don't have the figures and any figures i do have would be phenomenally out of date right but the reality is it throwing good money after bad yes at the moment but there is no option you know there is nowhere else in the prison estate that could cope with the numbers of barlinnie where you to close barlinnie plus it's a well run organised slick operation you know it it would be i think we have to wait for hmp glasgo right which is expected 2026 do you believe that it's likely i think it's likely to slip to 2027 right okay can i ask about comarnic also it's going to ask about comarnic prison again you've said already i'll quickly summarise that it's being transferred into public ownership it's currently well run very well run you believe that the decision to do this is ideological earlier this year i had a conversation with some prison officers who represent staff at comarnic and they said that it costs something in the region of 20 000 pounds per annum to keep a prisoner there whereas it's about 38 in the private sorry public estate they also said that circle had offered to build a 300 bed replacement facility as part of a continuation of the contract and this was rejected by the government um they couldn't understand the logic behind that um i suppose the question is the deal is done or is there any way do you think of going back in that or revisiting it i feel very awkward here because i am an ex circle member there is of course a way of going back on it you could delay it given that you're looking at a flat cash budget for four years or three years or whatever you could delay it for three or four years so you would need to negotiate with the special purpose vehicle and circle to do that but i mean that would not negate your belief that it's the right thing to do but you could delay it while you're in financial concerns so given these extreme budget realities facing prison service it's doable there's the ability to pause the transfer at least in the short term yes yeah okay now in addition to that you also referred to audit scotland and the cost of the transfer and one cost i think has been overlooked is not just staff wages but pension costs can you quantify that in any way and you refer to audit scotland have you spoken to them directly about this i mentioned it to them yes because i felt it was something that should be looked at you know when we've got a fiscal challenge then any costs need examined don't they so yes so let me explain why it's going to cost so much having done it okay so private sector staff and circle in particular because i used to work there work 40 hours a week prison staff work 37 hours a week that's a three hour shortfall in order to put them on to prison service terms and conditions you're going to have more staff to cover off the three hour shortfall private sector staff get free meals you're going to have to buy that out their children get Christmas parties you're going to have to buy that out you're going to have to replace all the uniform you're going to have to replace all the it you're going to have to rebrand the place you're going to have to train every single member of prisoner facing staff private sector staff can't use battans prison officers can and must be able to use them you're going to have to put all that training in place if private the sir Kilmarnock runs on lower staffing levels than i think the unions would like i can't speak on their behalf you may get a demand for additional staff on top of the staff you're going to have to get because of the three hour gap and also private sector staff have shorter holidays so you're going to have to cover all of that that's where the costs come from and it's probably impossible but is there a figure that you have the only no i mean for me i can't no i think you're going to have to get that properly costed and i i out of plucking out of the air off the top of my head i think you're looking at 10 to 12 million and and while that's not a huge amount in the overall prison budget it's a lot and yeah just remember also that you've got when when you have a DCMF contract design cut you know construct manufacturer and facilitate that what you're doing is you're buying the building as well so they've had a 25 year mortgage so you know you need to look at when you look at costs you need to bear in mind that mortgage capacity yeah but just final point on that very quickly very quickly because there's quite a number of other given HMP kill and what come on in the circle are offering to build a new facility presumably if the transfer takes place given the budgetary issues there will not be a new facility i think if they wanted it i think you could pick up the facility i think the problem is the facility would have again a mortgage cost included in it so okay thank you thank you i'm going to bring in collect i think you're wanting to ask a follow-up and Fulton and then i will move on to bringing in Katie to pick up on the private prison estate so collect then Fulton thanks computer and good morning wednesday i'm just touching upon what you just said there Russell about the transfer over and forgive me if i'm wrong on this and maybe you could clarify is that if you were to transfer those private staff from circle over you know to her majesty service then the pension costs involved in that when you to pay staff over i know that i'm sure for certain that the pension is ring fenced out with to pay and obviously it costs a significant lot more the pension going into the public pension schemes it certainly will add to the cost you're absolutely right yes okay thank you it was just fallen up from Russell the family's line of questioning i think it's almost created a sort of conflict there because obviously that is a committee and the role that the government are are looking at just now we want to try and find ways to save costs but a lot of the cost implications of the transfer over seem like things that you know most of us would probably support so you mentioned more training better holidays you know better pay as well so you know it's politicians but we would want to support that as well so it's not i suppose it's really just more for a comment than anything else in the interest of time but i just wanted to comment on that i can see you obviously i think the pay is comparable my memory is i don't don't quote me at all but i know in addie well we were just asking about that yesterday and they say their prison officer pay basic grade prison officer is the same pay as the Scottish prison service or comparable was the word they used so yeah but when i suppose my point is when a lot of the cost implications are you know projected to be around improvements for the work and lives of people you know it's a difficult one for us to be against in that sense if that makes sense but i do also hear that Kilmarnock is very well run as well so i think that's that's worth knowing but that was it okay i'll bring in Katie Clark just to pick up on some of the prison some of what i was going to ask has already been covered but i mean is it fair to say that the reason that Kilmarnock's cheaper is is mainly to do with the terms and conditions of the staff there and indeed staffing levels i think you've said that you think pay might be comparable but it may be some of the other terms and conditions which are less beneficial for staff at Kilmarnock than maybe in the mainstream prison estate is that is that fair and also what i've always heard about Kilmarnock this is my understanding so my understanding has always been that the staffing levels are poorer particularly at night and that the reason that it may be cheaper is that they employ less staff as well as the staff having poorer terms and conditions are those the main reasons and i ask because you obviously do have a level of knowledge about the place given you know your past role there and i do have a sort of further question about Kilmarnock but if if maybe you could respond on that first certainly in terms of pay and conditions i don't think the pay i can't talk about the pay with any degree of accuracy certainly they work a longer working week by three hours or so and certainly they have less holidays so yes no question but in terms of the staffing levels i think you have to remember it's a modern prison i know it's not modern anymore but it was when it was built so to compare the staffing levels of a modern prison in comparison to a Victorian prison is an unfair comparison it's apples and pears so although the staffing levels might appear low you would have to compare it with Lowmawson Grampian rather than trying to compare it with any of the other prisons because there's technology such as cctv etc in place i understand the point you're making and what we've been told and what my understanding is is that and you may know about the contracts in particular in relation to Kilmarnock but maybe the other private prisons as well is that there are guaranteed cost of living increases built into the contracts so in terms of the the real challenges we face now across the prison estate given the size of the budget cuts that are being proposed is it the case that those private sector prisons will have a level of protection and therefore it will be the the mainstream estate that will have to take a greater share of those budget cuts is that your understanding of how it's likely to operate yes that that's helpful to know thank you okay thanks very much Katie I wonder if I can just come in at this point and ask some questions about efficiencies and scope for efficiencies and what their views are on whether the Scottish Prison Service has got scope to put efficiency savings and measures in place so for example through perhaps investment in alternatives to custody which we've already discussed spent to save projects and you know you've indicated this morning you're very cited on sort of current research in and around prisons in Scotland so whether efficiency savings might not just be about saving money but also might be an opportunity to enhance our prison estate within Scotland and bring in some contemporary practice of examples I'm quite interested in your views on that I've always been a huge fan of information communication technology so when I ran a number of prisons in England I introduced technology into those prisons so as an example when you collect your keys the good old days you had someone behind a glass door you'd drop a tally down you'd collect a key collect a radio requires two members of staff all day that's three members of staff so introducing the key ven system which was one of the first things that was introduced immediately you've got a staff saving it's also safer then introduced incel telephony about 20 years ago in england hi that old anyway you know and that's now coming in to cut into all the prisons in scotland I think that's really important in terms of keeping in touch with your family and it needs to be a time that's right for your family be able to say good night to your kids being able to phone your mum in outer mongolia or whatever you know those having that facility incel telephony is just common humanity it's really lovely to see that coming in the next stage for me would be incel computers so I do not mean surfing the web but I do mean that if you start a class in in the education facility that at night when you're locked in you can carry on working and you can do that you can book your own visits you can choose your menu you can buy your own canteen goods you can put a complaint in you can you know it's going to reduce the administrative burden when we introduced that in one of our prisons we saved £4,000 a month on paperwork that was a huge cost saving on stationery the phones and the computers paid themselves off in two years so in terms of investment to save but there are other advantages you know if you if you are going to be booking a healthcare appointment the nurse can phone you in cell and say how are you let me try as you over the phone you can do a kind of triaging social work can talk to you you can talk to them you know there's there's huge advantages computer-based cognitive behavioral therapy you know but the big one you've been in prison 27 years you come out if you can't use a smartphone or you don't know how to access stuff on the web you're in trouble it is an absolutely essential skill these days to be able to do your own research and go online and do things you know even to use your washing machine requires a degree in technology I sometimes think so yeah so for me I think that's one area and and within that if you look at the creativity that happened in Covid one of the things the prisoners are telling us is that they quite like to be locked up in the evening they felt safe they like having enough activity during the day that in the evening could just be family visits bearing in mind lots of kids at school they can't come during the day you know to have actual purposeful activity in the evening rather than the random recreation everybody out playing pool you know I mean how many of us do that at night so I think there are efficiency savings that can be made that have to be jointly done with other alternatives if we're locking down every prison at night say from six or seven o'clock onwards you have to be able to use the phone you have to be able to continue learning and you have to be able to come out and see your kids in the evening so you know there are efficiency savings that can be made video technology let's look at that video courts why are we transporting so many people to court who then aren't required and have to be transported back you know what let's let's look at how technology can do to actually develop those efficiency savings thanks very much can I just ask a follow-up question in relation to that might be slightly straying off budget I'm going to ask it anyway you spoke about I mean you gave some examples of interaction with staff so whether that's healthcare staff or prison staff my slight concern in certain care settings is that sometimes over digitising and the over introduction of technology can separate staff from people in their care and I've got a personal family experience of that so I'm just interested in your views on where you place that decision making between making improvements and efficiencies but at the same time maintaining those really important elements within the prison setting one of which would be actual face-to-face interaction with staff one of the reasons Covid was so successfully managed with and that people were prepared to tolerate those locked up conditions was not only that it was seen as legitimate because they could see on the TV it was happening to everybody but also because of really good staff prisoner relationships that really makes a big difference I would be very concerned if the staff prisoner relationships were compromised by a flat-pad cash budget do I think digitisation does that no I don't if you take away the administrative burden of getting the canteen sheets in transcribing them on to a computer you know getting the requests in transcribing those on to a computer because the prisoners do all that for themselves a you're building personal responsibility but you're also freeing staff time from mundane administrative tasks one of the things that really needs to be capitalised on is those staff prisoner relationships integrated case management working with people to work their prisoner journey through and out the other side when you look at the desistence theory time and time and time again people say I had a really good relationship with ex it's sometimes it's a girlfriend you know and that actually made me change my whole life and thinking an awful lot of that is staff too and actually freeing up time for them to do more of the case management and less of the administrative burden is absolutely worthwhile I don't know if you've looked at Leilishdat prison in Holland but they have a pre-release centre where it's completely digitally run it's very cheap to build very cheap to run 300 prisoners three staff but it's completely digital but it can only work because in the previous part of that prisoner's sentence they had strong relationships with staff and when they're on the pre-release journey and on the way out they now need to build a relationship with the family and the community so it's a very different concept. That's really interesting we're just almost on the hour but if you're happy to bear with us I know that there are some more questions that members would like to ask so I'm just going to hand over to Rona Mackay to pick up on mental health. Yes thanks I'd like to ask a wee bit more about health and mental health and I know we have touched on that. Your submission states that discussion and alternatives need to take place between health and justice around the safe and appropriate location of prisoners with mental health issues. I'm thinking particularly about the number of women and I know that you've been very outspoken about this and a shocking statistic that I read was that 80% of women in prison have brain damage due to domestic abuse which clearly prison is no place for them so I'm wondering if you could maybe expand on what you mean by alternatives to prison and how this can be achieved given the financial pressures that are here today and second part of the question is you also say that you would approve of a consideration of a dedicated aged care prison facility presumably to deal with the number of of older prisoners and an aging population. I wonder if you could maybe expand on that and basically to say you know in an ideal world what could be achieved but what realistically can be achieved given the financial pressures? I think the women's custody units are a huge step forward and something Scotland is going to be incredibly proud of, I really do. I've got a number of people who are asking to come and see it, Chief Inspector of Prisons England for example Chief Inspector of Western Australia, just delighted that we've gone that far and they want to come and see it working in action so you know I think those are a huge step forward. All you need to do is visit a prison and go down to the segregation unit and you will see significant evidence of mental ill health. Whether or not they're capable of being treated is not a decision that we can make, it is clearly a clinical decision but you don't have to be anything other than a compassionate human to go and have a look and see for yourself. It is really disturbing many many many ways the amount of mental ill health that is held in segregation. So there's that issue, I've always felt that we should be able to have a step up, step down facility for mental health so something between a prison and a state hospital or somewhere in a prison that is to use the old fashioned term an asylum for people who are mentally unwell and cannot cope in the community or in prison. There does need to be some thinking about that you know I just think it needs to be thought of and we need to think about it and whether or not it could be a cheaper alternative is something we also need to think about. So mental health is worrying there does appear to be a massive problem in the NHS in terms of mental health waiting lists, in terms of mental health beds and the option the safe option for the communities they end up in prison and that's sad. Just on that can I maybe just ask you for women with let's say not not severe mental health issues but clearly do need holistic care what would you like to say put in place for that so that they don't automatically go to prison for more minor offences caused by mental health issues but they need care not necessarily serious institutions. I do think there needs to be a step up, step down facility I really do which caters for that precise group of people of which there's a vast number in prison. Prism is expensive, psychiatric care is expensive, if you could have a step up step down facility like the old-fashioned bail hostels you know supervised and supported. The family rehab for substance misuse inevitably will be having people with mental health issues as well, co-morbidity is a huge issue. I just think that's a huge step forward you know hooray let's let's get that going something else we could be proud of. And I know there are a number of third sector agencies who do a lot of good work with women particularly being released from prison. The other part of my question was about the dedicated aged care prison facility, is that are you suggesting a separate prison for older prisoners? The reality is the vast majority of aged care people are because there are longer sentences and they're aging in prison there's a higher degree of historic six offenders who come with long sentences you know it's a real problem. I think there is a real need to recognise that we need to deal with it. I'm not totally sure if you're wheelchair-bound and you've got dementia that you actually need the very secure confines of a prison you could have an alternative. Would you see that as part of a more you know you talked earlier about a radical prison reform that could be a core part of it I guess? Yes, very much so. Okay, thank you. Thanks. Okay, thanks very much. Jamie, are you wanting to come in on this? I think Rorynna Mcae has covered, I did have a question about the comment you made around a separate prison for aged, those with for example physical medical difficulties and I think we actually saw some of that in practice when we went to sort in for example how difficult it is and the modifications needed in quite old buildings actually that maybe a dedicated facility might be better served, but I guess if we're not building prisons and dumb priests I agree now that it's hardly likely we're going to start building specific cohorts. But you could convert areas of prisons or you could look at an old people's home and putting a fence around that kind of thinking, you know. If you talk about people who are physically disabled and or about dementia that the risk is not, they're not hardly likely to escape, do they really need high security you know prisoners? So I think there are opportunities. I think unfortunately Covid taught us that many care homes felt like prisons for their, many of their patients unfortunately. So I wanted to just ask, we're obviously talking about pre-budget scrutiny and you mentioned your very opening comments around not just prisons although we've focused our comments on prisons, but the wider justice sector, all areas of the justice sector facing the same potential outcomes and that's community justice, the police, the crown office and other stakeholders here, all parts of the cog in the wheel. Now I think if we end up in the scenario where the Government finds extra money to give some of these services on the back of evidence that they've heard in this committee, it's very likely that much of it will get sucked up in simply pay rises because that's the largest source of outcomes for many of these organisations. Do you have any concern that even if we don't look at flat cash there is some additional year and year rises in their budgets and all of that is indeed sucked up through negotiations with workers or to avoid industrial action, which is a real potential across the board. None of that, none of the good things that any of them want to do will happen anyway even with an increase in budget. What's your advice to the Government on that respect? No, I don't. Because you've got a really committed collection of people who are intent on justice reform. You know, you look at community justice Scotland, you look at the courts and tribunal services, you look at the Crown Prosecution Service, look at the police, they are all keen for justice reform, they really are, they would all like to see the remand figures going down, they'd all like to see mental health people handled, people with mental illness handled differently, they would all like to see the prison population coming down without in any way inhibiting the ability of the police to catch and convict and without in any way inhibiting the ability for the sheriffs to be able to send dangerous people to prison. I think that Covid had the advantage that it developed a creativity and actually if we let the creativity run and we look at four or five costed options that will reduce costs but will bring around better facilities, I think that it can be achieved, I really do. I think that the problem is that much of what they're asking in terms of those upgrades or improvements all cost money and will require capital budget, which very few of them believe they're going to get. So with all the will in the world, increasing the resource budget will keep people happy but not necessarily invest in things, which is what they need, that's the concern. I think there are ways and weeds around that. There are times to look at the third sector and there are times to look at what we already have and how it can be repurposed. I really think that it does require a radical rethink and you get a think tank in and at the end of two days they come up with three or four ideas that get costed but I do think that it is possible to take what we have and repurpose it to a cheaper, more cost effective and better system. Collette, I think that you'd like to come in and ask some questions about transport. Yeah, Wendy, in terms of, you touched upon it in your submission as well, that the current contract for the Prism Transport Service, the cost model, is no longer fit for purpose. You mentioned the court backlogs in terms of increased hospital beds, botches and virtual courts and what not as well. Can you maybe expand on that and see what we can do better? I understand the contract at the moment is eight years, so that's an efficiency in itself, if you like, if we could get out of that contract. Can you maybe explain and expand on that? Yes, so GOA me currently is failing to simple as that and I don't think I'm saying anything that everybody doesn't know, so the amount of hospital escorts that they're not achieving, the amount of times they're late at court, the amount of interprison transport transfers that they're not achieving, I worry about the hospital appointments being cancelled, I think that has got the potential for being very dangerous. The prison service are picking it up, they will have to and they are looking at the contract and seeing what they can do. GOA me are struggling to keep and maintain, recruit and retain staff. You know, they are so many staff down that they cannot run the service and they unfortunately are seen as a stepping stone to the police and the prison service, so they train staff up, they're really good and they disappear. So I don't envy them, they've got every intent to try and do as good as they can, but they are not succeeding at the moment and they have not done actually for some time. It's been very much a sign wave of performance and for us quite worrying. If the contract isn't working there has to be a plan B and the contract will allow for a plan B. So, you know, the prison service was going to have to think very carefully about what that plan will be, you know, whether it's going to step in as in, you know, take over the management of it, how much would that cost, cancel the contract, how much would that cost, run it, you know, amputate various services, how much would that cost and run it themselves. So there, I know they're looking at that now because both GeoAmy and the Scottish Prison Service want to improve the whole service delivery and it's not just a single problem, you can find GeoAmy all you like, but if it still means the hospital transport is cancelled, the impact is huge. So therefore they're both looking at it together to try and resolve it and there are ways and means contractually to make that happen. I know from, as well, being an ex-IPM and picking up some case work to do with. And a good idea, by the way. Thank you. Talk with the best, leave me me. A few of the cases that came forward was to do with transportation, especially when you mentioned already about, you know, the age and demographics of some of the prisoners and when they're being transferred. So for instance, if one of them is in shots and they're having to go up to court or whatever in Inverness or something like that, they're stuck in a cage, basically, within this transportation and they could be sitting there for quite a length of time. How can that change and, you know, what's the impact there on their human rights, as well, there? Huge, huge. I mean, I, unfortunately, we're in the middle of looking at that and we're developing a series of case studies of concern. 16-year-old held in a van for five hours before he gets to Pullman at 10 o'clock at night. Things like that. A woman transported up to WIC, five-minute court appearance, five-minute back. The growth and growth of video courts is one of the options, you know, it really has to be. And I know there's some reluctance around that, but if you talk to the prisoners of the only ones I can speak to, I can't speak to the ones who walk in off the street. But you talk to prisoners, they so prefer going to a video court than having to get up early in the morning, travel in a van, sit around the court custody unit, travel back in a van for a five-minute court appearance. You know, they just don't like it. And I know there's some barriers to that. There's a feeling that, you know, the defence briefs would rather speak to them face to face and be there beside them in the court. But depending on the diet, obviously, if you're a solemn jury stage, you need to be there in person. But I think that you could radically reduce the amount of prisoner transport by greater use of video courts. Do you know offhand when's the cost of the contract for DOA me? I think it's a matter of public record, actually. I think that you can look at it. Jamie, do you want to come in on transport? No? In that case, I will hand over to Russell Finlay. Thank you. It's just a question about your submission. It refers to serious organised crime groups and a growing cohort of those prisoners, which in itself brings particular problems, not least the pressure brought to bear on staff to smuggle contraband and the risk of increased violence and needing to keep those prisoners apart. My understanding is that, effectively right now, two major organised crime groups are sent to two separate prisons, but your submission calls for consideration of a SOCG strategy for accommodation. There are two questions. One is what might that look like and what has been the SPS's response to your suggestion. Absolute agreement. They're looking at it right now, so they're taking their top security people and the people within the prisons that govern us and looking at exactly what can be done. While it's two major crime groups, if you like, none the less that could expand to three or four and then what do you do? The numbers are growing. They're looking at the model in England, which I think it's called a Marsock in England. They're looking at the English model as what they're doing. They're looking abroad. They'll ask their research teams to look abroad and see what they're doing, so they are taking that seriously and they are taking that forward. England has a huge number of prisons. When they first hit very serious offenders, they developed what they called a dispersal system, so they were dispersed into an estate with highly trained staff that had higher security levels. Scotland doesn't really have the breadth of establishments that you could have a dispersal system, but they certainly need to have a serious and organised crime strategy and they are developing it. Can I just clarify what is Marsock? I think it's multi-agency, risk-serious and organised crime committee. Right. I wasn't sure if it was a word or an action or something. Yes, thank you. Great. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you very much indeed. Finally, I'm going to bring in Fulton. You've got some questions around interchange with justice partners. Yeah, thanks, convener. I wasn't sure if you were going to bring them back in because I think that Wendy has actually already touched on it at various points, but it's a question that I've been asking the other panellists through the pre-project scrutiny process and that's the interplay with other justice agencies and I know you've touched on it at various points. That's if there's a flat cash settlement going to everybody in the prison service, the police, the community justice, et cetera, et cetera. What impact do you think that has again on your own budget of the SPS? That's an interesting one, actually. I mean, I look at the criminal justice board and the criminal justice, you know, all the rest of it that works together and they are working together. I think that the prison service can often be the hidden person at the bottom of the pile. You know, they're not as big as the police. They're not as visible as the police, for instance. So it can be difficult, but I do think that by them all meeting together and actually beginning to look at the whole process together and the whole issue together, they are no longer the poor relation in the justice field and that's wonderful. So I think we'll achieve it. Thank you very much indeed. I'm just going to bring this session to a close link. Can I just make one last comment? I would deeply appreciate if you recognised that I cannot speak on behalf of the private sector and that we are completely neutral on this. That's very much noted and on the record. Talking about information on the record, it's just to highlight that the reported cost of the eight-year contract with GOMA was £238 million for prisoner escort services, so just to record that on the record. So thank you very much indeed, Wendy. That's been a really informative session and obviously if there's anything further that members wish to ask, we'll follow up in writing. So thank you again, and we'll just have a short suspension to allow Wendy to leave. Thank you members. Our next item of business today is to review the evidence submitted to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee on the national care service bill and to decide if we wish to take any further evidence. So for example, one option that we have is to schedule a one-off evidence session on the criminal justice-related matters in the bill, and I refer members to paper number 4. I'm just going to open it up and ask if you have any specific comments on the proposal to run an evidence session or if you are agreed that that would be appropriate. Russell? Yes, thank you. I think that just given that one in five of the written submissions to the committee relate to criminal justice, it makes perfect sense that we should be taking some kind of proper look at this. Perfect, thank you. Agreed Fulton? Yep, just to say that I agree with that as well. I think that I don't think it would certainly do any harm for this committee to look at it. We would maybe need to have a wider conversation about how we feed back into the health committee, but I think that given the criminal justice community, criminal justice comes under our remit. I think that it's appropriate for us to do a one-off session. Perfect, thanks. Thanks Fulton. Anybody else? Nope. So we're happy that we'll put arrangements in place for a one-off evidence session and I'll just ask our clerks team to assist with that. So our next item of business today is to discuss recent correspondence that the committee has received and I refer members to paper number five. So you'll see that the clerks have suggested some ideas of how we may want to take forward the various issues highlighted, but ultimately if you've got any specific comments or suggestions on either of the pieces of correspondence, then please come in. So I'll just take each letter in turn and we'll start off with the letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans on facilitating peaceful assemblies in Scotland and the working group work that has been done in and around that. Any members want to come in with any points or are we happy to note the content? Obviously again, this is a big issue in central Scotland in comparison to elsewhere, especially in light of the sectarianism that goes on and I know that it happens even in East Kilbride quite significantly. One thing I just wanted to note was that some of the civic and interfaith, the local chapel and the churches are working together to set up, you know, stop sectarianism in schools in particular. One of the reasons is that they've approached like the community councils and local authorities to seek more funding in order to deliver this to first and second years, because it is a big thing and I know that I'm slightly digressing away from the marches and parades, but they all have an impact there and it's a really good model that they use, they use transport to take them to maybe different areas or teach them different things about the impact that sectarianism has. Again, on that particular letter, I maybe need some more clarification on where they're trying to move that model to. Okay, thanks Collette. I don't think there's anything wrong with highlighting some good work that's going on locally in communities. Jamie, and then Fulton. Thank you. Obviously, to thank the work of the working group on this is a very difficult and sensitive issue, at least for members who represent communities on the west coast of Scotland, but it's still a bit unclear from the letter we received what will happen next around some of the proposals. I had some concerns around the suggestion that those decisions will be micro-local and whether local authorities will have new or specific powers in relation to marches and processions and the consequence of that, in that we could look at having quite disparate outcomes for marches of certain types in one part of the country, but not another, for example. That also then leaves open the vagities of how different councils operate, whether they're more member-led or official-led, and of course bearing in mind that councils come in various shapes, sizes and political colours. I think I would like a little bit more information, as it was a little bit unclear from the cabinet secretary's comments whether he supported that proposal. It just says that I'm keen to explore if anything is possible and desirable in respect to that conclusion. The phrase used is that improvements could be best handled by local partners, but it doesn't state who those local partners would be and what statutory roles they would play in making those decisions. There are some people who are disappointed that we won't have a Northern Irish style parade commission, but I understand that the volume in Scotland is much lower than it is, but often the consequences are not the same. I would perhaps ask that we're kept up-to-date in any information that the cabinet secretary can provide on the direction of travel. That would be helpful. Like you, I certainly got the impression that local management, local participation and decision-making around processions and parades was where the cabinet secretary was coming from. I mentioned that to colleagues earlier on. In the north-east, it isn't an issue that is as significant as it is in other parts of Scotland. That makes sense to me, but thank you for your comments on that. I'll add to that that it's unclear, for example, if there is a revision to the process, who would be the ultimate arbiter or what sort of appeals would be in place for organisers of such events, where they feel like a decision hadn't been made wrongly at a localised level, if there's no national consistency how that will be presented at a local level. I think that that needs to be cleared up. The letter in Wharton group was about parades specifically, but some of the disruption to community that people feel is sick-dairy. It's part of another attempt to address this absolute stain on Scottish society, which has ultimately led to no firm conclusions. In that respect, I suppose, there's likely to be disappointment, although understanding as well, because when I heard about the group, I thought that this might be the end outcome to be honest about it. I'm a wee bit disappointed that the group and the cabinet secretary's response focus on Glasgow. That's right. I think that everybody from anywhere in Scotland would know that Glasgow would be the most impacted place, however it must be followed by a very close second by Lanarkshire. Further, to be no mention there, other than some of the local authorities, I think it's possibly not taking into account the impact that it's having on communities like Cope Ridge, Yrddraith, Scobride, Motherwell, Hamilton, Larkall, et cetera. I think that that could have maybe been recognised a bit more, but local authorities, police, et cetera, are doing all they can to have that balance between human rights and the right to parade and trying to prevent disruption to communities. In that respect, I suppose, we've just got to continue to support local partners to move forward, but really just some comments more than anything else, more than any action points, convener. Thank you. Okay, thanks very much. Anybody else want to come in? I would like a wee bit of clarification on some of the points that Jamie raised as well in terms of other parties, even just timescales, how long is it going to take to come to a conclusion? I thought it was a wee bit vague. That's fine. Thanks for that, Rona. I'm happy to propose that we write to the cabinet secretary and raise these matters. He has said in his letter that he'll write to us again in due course to update on progress in taking this work forward, but I think that there's no harm in us going back in the interim and raising the specific points that members have raised. Thanks very much for that. Okay, and the second letter that we received was from the Solicitor General on the Rangers Football Club case. You'll see the recommendation in the papers that has been made. However, I'll again open it up to members to come in with any comments, Russell. Yeah, thank you very much. Now it's worth just noting that this letter has been with us for almost two months now and we were unable to refer to it until now. Its contents are the latest twist in this malicious prosecution scandal and I was very interested to read confirmation that £15 million has been paid to the administrators, but this has been done with quote, no admission of liability by the Crown. Last week, we heard from the Crown witness, John Locke, who said that payouts are now at £51 million, and we should put on the record that this £15 million is part of that £51 million, rather than on top of it. He also confirmed that the Scottish Government have effectively signed a blank cheque for any other future payouts, and that has, of course, been against the backdrop of the extreme warnings about budget cuts across the justice system. I think that it's also worth noting that we only get told about this £15 million payout because it had been reported by a newspaper. This entire scandal has spanned the reign of three Lord Advocates, starting with Frank Moall and James Wolff, and now the reign of Dorothy Bain. It's caused significant reputational damage to Scottish justice, but I think that there appears to be a strange and worrying lack of meaningful contrition, explanation and accountability. I wonder if we should give any consideration to calling the two previous Lord Advocates to give evidence about what's happened. I'll come back to members' brief specific points at the end, and I'll bring in Pauline. Thank you very much. If ever there was a case for changing the rules of privilege in this Parliament to include questions that are subject to the moment, it would be this one. I don't think that it's good enough that I understand why it's the case, that we cannot get accountability for a decision, and I agree with Russell Findlay on this, that it's brought the Crown Prosecution Service completely into dispute. We can't ask any questions about that for a long time after it's happened and you begin to worry about the quality of the answers that you're going to get. I totally support the notion that, whenever we can, we should be asking Lord Advocates to come to this committee. I think that the committee needs to be the one, who else will there be, that questions the Crown Office on how such a decision could ever come to pass, that we've got, in a sense, the money is an issue to some extent, but in a sense, at the heart of it is why our Crown Office, Lord Advocate, to a decision that is now highly questionable on the face of it, that is being described as a malicious prosecution against those directors. I think that we need answers as to what was behind that, and the sooner we can get them, the better. I just want to recap briefly an issue. The letter almost implies that £15 million is the settled amount. It's nowhere near that, nor is £51 million the end of it, potentially. It states at the end of the Solicitor General's letter that she stresses proceedings remain live, that there may be other on-going discussions and that, indeed, the 51 is certainly not a cap on the liability. First of all, on the financial side of it, it's still unclear. It was helpful that the Crown made it clear last week that this is not coming from Crown budget, especially at a time when Crown budgets are under such pressure or facing cuts. The question remains, though, is where will the money come from. It's all very well-standing that the Scottish Government will underwrite it, but which bit of the Scottish Government, which directorate it, does the Scottish Government take out insurance and matters such as that? At a time when ministers are keen to stress how difficult things are financially for the Government, I totally understand that, it's perfectly reasonable for us to ask where £50 plus million of public taxpayer money will come from to subsidise the payment to the Climans. Aside from the money, which is important, and it's a hell of a lot of money, I have to say, is what lies alongside this. We've never really got to the bottom of why the decisions were taken in the first place. As Russell Findlay said, why no one was ever held to account. A huge amount of taxpayer money has gone towards this, and no one, to my knowledge, has lost their job. No one has properly apologised for it, and a number of individuals, rightfully or wrongfully, have become overnight lottery winners as a result of it. The Government must accept to restore that trust in the Crown and its independent decision-making process, even historic decisions, that some form of inquiry, as independent as it can be, must be held at some point in the future. Whether that is in the lifetime of this Parliament or the next, I don't know. Until those questions are answered, I don't think that we'll be able to restore that faith. I'm struggling to... Well, number one, an inquiry would cost more money, so do we add to the loss? I'm struggling to know what purpose this committee has with it. I'm not disputing what's been said. Don't get me wrong about accountability and all the rest of it, but given that it's complicated, it goes back a bit, and we are where we are with it, is there anything that we can usefully add to this? Okay, thanks very much. Come back in. Just very quickly, it's worth noting that the Scottish Government has already committed to an inquiry, as much as we've got a proliferation of inquiries already, which are costing a small fortune in themselves. I wonder whether, as a committee, we could, in advance of this ever-happening, speak to those directly involved and seek evidence. I don't think that we should rule it out. I think that it's perfectly within our gift to do so. Okay, thanks very much everybody. That's helpful, and it's important that your views are on the record. I very much recognise the concerns that members have expressed about what went wrong, and I do note that in the letter that we received from Ruth Charteris, she refers to the fact that she is committed to supporting future public accountability, including the expectation that there will be a form of judge-led inquiry in due course. My view is that we should await the outcome of that and find out perhaps a little bit more about what the timescales for that will be in relation to a point that Jamie raised. I think that it is important that we seek some reassurance around who pays. The cabinet secretary is coming in next week, and that may be an issue that he can be asked some questions in and around. That would be my proposal at the moment. Okay, that completes our public business for today. Our next meeting is on Wednesday, 16 November, when we will hear from the cabinet secretary for justice and veterans as part of our pre-budget scrutiny process. We will also hear from him on the UK Government's Northern Ireland Troubles legacy and reconciliation bill. As previously agreed, we will now move into private session.