 kind of thing tonight with a quick break, three members of the council got to run down the market street, doors the street, read one thing, declare the doing as has happened and come back, should it be much more in 10 minutes away? Yeah. This gives great quality to the matter, how far can you lean back away from them? Yeah. You get good quality, so. These aren't even our old ones, these are the new ones. We used to have different ones, right? Yeah, we used to have a different mixer. Yeah. That's what I was worried about. The city paid a bunch of money for one system. Yeah. I think it worked very well. I think they paid a huge amount of money for this system. It still didn't work very well. I didn't know how they were going to feel about that. Sue Elliott was very happy. Oh. I'm excited to show her up with this. If I could, she would. She would be totally happy. How do you turn these on? Back here? Those are on there and over here. Okay. So they're just on all the time? Well, I can turn them all around in a vision. Okay. So no whispering. That's a good idea. Be careful. Okay. I don't usually. Well, that's why I always warn people that it's sitting near this one here. Because it's designed to catch everything way over there. Oh. So if you're sitting right next to it. Yeah. I don't use it a lot, but when it's on, somebody whispers the tiniest thing. Okay. So there's something over here that needs to be on. We'll turn it on, right? I'll turn it on. Yeah. Yeah. Just start clumpering. I always forget what needs to be on. So myself, it's different than when you guys are running your system. Yeah. So I'm not going to tell you how to do that. It's not growing the system. I just use the bottom three machines I turn on. All three. I don't think I'm going to put them on, but you get one of these for me. And then I'm very careful about the master. You'll see on that. I think it's the bottom one. It says master. It needs to be on. It needs to be on as low as it'll, as we can get it. Yeah. Because when you hear a nasty explosion, the noise in the room, it's got something to do with that thing. The market endorses three weeks. Yeah. Are you ready? All right. So good evening. I'd like to call the South Burlington City Council meeting of Monday, October 2nd to order. And the first order of business is the Pledge of Allegiance. And Megan, would you like to lead us, please? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Instructions on exiting building in case of an emergency. Case of emergency. We have two exit doors here. We proceed directly out the doors and gather in the parking lot. If these doors are blocked, proceed back out through these doors and into the main, out the main entrance to the building. Tom and I will be responsible for making sure the building is cleared. Okay. Thank you. Agenda review. Additions, deletions or changes in order of the agenda items and our city manager would like to change an order. Could we please move the consent agenda up to this moment in time? We have a, if you approve the municipal planning grant application, it must be signed and submitted by our planning director and zoning director by 7 p.m. tonight. He's anxious. So we should do it right now. So is that, so we'll move that. Are there any other additions or deletions or changes you're okay with going through voting on the entire consent agenda? Okay. So our next item of business then is the consent agenda, which includes the signed disbursement, the minutes from September 15th, approval of a recreation impact fee credit to the O'Brien brothers agency and approve the municipal planning grant application submittal, which is due in 25 short minutes. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. And there's nobody else. So that carried. So our next item is comments and questions from the public, not related to the agenda. There is nobody from the public. So we'll take no comments. So our next item is to have a little travel time. We'll be examining the present, the premises at the northeasterly corner of the intersection of market and Dorset Street and South Burlington. So we will. And what do we do? We don't adjourn. We just recess. We'll have a brief recess and we'll be back in about 10 minutes. Okay. So we are recessed. Thank you. I don't know. I haven't heard. Roller, are we waiting for Pat or? Let me see if I can call her and let me just see if I can call her. We got you. We got you. So, and we've, a council has done the tour down the street. So they're back. Perfect. I just might ask one question. And I probably missed the part about the agenda. There was just one item that I wanted to have brought up under other business. Oh, under the consent agenda, we actually other business. Oh, okay. Oh, that's right. Okay. So what is that item? Oh, the item is just that David view contacted us again. And I would like us to get a legal opinion set to him regarding people can handling. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yes. I was going to mention that. Yep. I asked him, I said, why don't you just come to the meeting tonight and speak before the council, but apparently did not hit an answer. And I encouraged him also to come in. Oh, good. In case he hasn't, I would like to ask that we ask for an opinion. Um, be sent to him. Okay. I spoke actually with Kevin earlier today and he's going to, um, we'll get an update from, let's go back into session and then I can announce that. So, um, I'd like to call back to order the South Wellington city council. Um, on Monday, October 2nd, we have just returned from our short trip to the northeasterly corner of market in Dorset to, um, pass a resolution to what do we do? We, um, post not postponed, but we continue. We continued, um, the hearing regarding, um, examination of the premises. Right. Examination of the premises for the market street, um, build out, I guess. And it passed 302 to two absent. Pat, just so you know, um, Tom is not here either, but he's not calling in. So you are here by voice here. You're here. You're here physically. That's right. So thank you for calling in. Um, and just so you know, we also did pass the consent agenda. Okay. We did that early because item D approving the municipal planning grant application, um, it's due in two minutes. And, um, so it was sent electronically with time to spare. Okay. Okay. So moving on to item six announcements and the city manager's report. Are there any announcements? I got none. Okay. The night after our last meeting is two. Um, there's a lot of discussion about the road between the two phases. Um, phase two will be a major entrance from Heinzburg road. And as you know, phase one has an entrance from Dorset street. And there were a lot of discussion about, should it be a regular connection or should it just be an emergency gravel road, you know, with a chain across or whatever. Um, so I believe that was continued. Um, but there was a lot of feedback from the community there and from residents in cider mill phase one. I am also a resident and sorry, mill phase one. Um, I've voiced some concerns about, um, the lack of a, of a plan that showed a wreck path coming from Heinzburg road all the way to the connection into five, seven mill phase one and also concern about the continuation of the wildlife corridor and maximizing the width of that. Those are the things I talked about. Um, I also attended an awesome 40th high school reunion on Martha's vineyard for the Martha's vineyard regional high school. And, uh, want to shout out to all of my classmates. Thanks for having me and having a really great time. So, um, happens once in a lifetime. If you can get there, cause all the boats were canceled on Thursday, trying to get over there because of Hurricane Jose. Luckily it receded enough on Friday. And if you graduate, just as you, um, you know, uh, but if the public hasn't seen, I wrote a counselor corner, um, that came out last week. And, um, I've heard very good things with regard to the culverts that have been put into place. People are, um, I think kind of an awe in front of what, you know, has been put into Market Street or under Market Street. And it was, it was quite an impressive engineering feat. Um, and otherwise, no, I have nothing to report. I think we're going to discuss the library. A few minutes. Okay. I attended a channel 17 meeting and, um, just to note that I thought was very interesting. Um, they're doing some, um, as, as you know, we're live streamed today. Um, and we got a streaming first and live meeting coverage update. And in several communities, they're piloting, um, titling. Um, so they're doing that in the field so that those people watching can, will have a title so they know where in the agenda you are in the meeting. So they're piloting that. And they're also considering discussing figuring out how, um, you can really activate or have meaningful participation from home. The NPAs in, I guess, Burlington are experienced, very, very experimenting, experimenting. Yes. Sorry. Um, with Facebook to do that. And that's just another, um, item that different communities have, um, requested or mentioned as being, um, a nice, um, addition to really allowing the public to interface and, and participate in these public meetings that are taped. And, um, and they are taping the airport coverage, even though they couldn't find the money as I understand it. Um, they just decided to go ahead and do it. To tape the what? The airport meeting. Okay. Okay. I noticed, noted with interest, the full page Comcast ad in the free press last week. Yes. Announcing their commitment to the community and how much the money they've spent. Um, that's just in light of some of the, of the court case. Yes. Or their appeal. Right. They are seeking a licensed renewal. That irony was not lost on me either. Um, and I just would know, and we'll probably talk about it with the library, but the article in the free press today, um, talked about the, the increased use of libraries. And I know we've all heard from a member of the public anyway that, you know, libraries are really not necessary anymore because everything's digital. So I thought it was an interesting, um, counter, um, story to that position. I did too. Okay. Great story. And, and there are stories too, which it's not only about reading books. It's also all of the services increasingly that libraries take on with regard to navigating social services or all kinds of things. Um, that probably don't come to mind of, you know, the, right, they're really important for the public. Yeah. Kevin. Uh, the joint survey committee, which is the committee that is looking at regionalizing dispatch and setting up a union municipal district has continued to meet and we are in agreement on the, what would in effect be the charter. Um, that is being just some, um, minor things worked out on it by the lawyers and then it will be sent to the attorney general's office for the attorney general to review. If it comes back from his office with a green light, then we're ready to bring it to the legislative bodies of each of the community for you to consider the agreement. Ultimately, the hope is that it goes to the voters, that you approve it to go to the voters in March. And so, um, we, along with the other seven communities would be looking to have a public vote in March on whether or not to join the union municipal district for regionalize or for, for joint dispatch. Um, there was a, what I thought was an extremely good press conference on housing last week. Um, the, some of the articles tended to focus on the, the falling a little bit short of the affordable housing goal. Nonetheless, uh, the overall goal for, um, an increase in housing to meet the demand, uh, uh, exceeded goal. The governor was there virtually anybody who you could think of, uh, who's been involved in, uh, housing issues for the last 20 years was there. And it was a very good press conference. And, um, really trying to build momentum to move forward. And of course it was hosted here, uh, on market street, uh, on the Pune property actually in the parking lot. They were nice enough to let us use that. But, um, we were able to talk about, um, you know, the cathedral square, our square project, and we were able to talk about the library site, um, that we have, uh, we have an option on. So, uh, and then talk about the rest of city center, but other projects in South Burlington as well. So, um, it was a, it was a good way to showcase what we're doing in South Burlington. Um, the affordable housing committee met this afternoon. Um, they have their new members on board. So they're up and running and, and, uh, it's not able to attend, but, um, Larry Michaels was there and Larry Kupferman and, uh, Eric Farrell and some other folks. Um, we continue to work with the hospital, Howard Mental Health on those issues. We now have a proposal from Howard that I think I sent to you. You did. I can't remember. Um, uh, we're trying to set up a meeting with Howard for, uh, staff, senior staff for next week. All the chiefs have this document. They're all going through it. All the managers have it. They're going through it. And we hope to have a consensus document that we can take, um, next week to Howard and see what we can do to move forward. And also this week is, uh, CIP week. So, uh, Alana's busy and Tom and I are, I'm sitting with all of our managers to go through their CIPs this week and next. So, um, um, there's a lot going on, uh, getting ready for the budget season. I forgot to manage mention that we had a steering committee meeting that we all attended that too. And, um, yeah, we got updates, um, about the library. And I mean, not really an update, but that the high school will be considering or discussing how to use that new space, um, an update on the, the, um, negotiations and what else we can talk about the airport, which I thought was very, very helpful because the, the, um, school board has requested the noise, um, study as well as information about noise mitigation funding for the, um, elementary school. And right, that came to my mind too, um, since I had brought up two meetings ago, perhaps the, um, response that we received from Nick Longo with regard to, um, our comments that they inserted in, um, what is it called, the compatible. I'm not hearing much of what Megan's saying. The compatible noise plan. Noise compatibility program. Noise compatibility plan. I can hear you now. And, um, I think that as a council, it would, you know, it would behoove us to support the school's efforts in order to receive the information that they're seeking and, um, in order to be able to plan for the future. So I hope that we can more than by the next quarter, the head of the next quarter meeting, really keep, um, close tabs on the progress that that request is making. Okay. And I forgot to add, um, at the channel 17 meeting, um, the board did agree that it would make more sense to have, um, the municipal contributions, the request will be a very small increase each year rather than what we did last year as was, we doubled it and which is sort of a big chunk and just have it, like some of the other services we receive, like, um, the transportation and the water district or the, um, Manuski Valley Park District, um, they typically have a small increase each year. So it doesn't hit us quite as much. I mean, of course, it's up to the council to agree to that, but that was the board's recommendation that that made a lot of sense to just have that request annually for a little bit. And then I did forget to mention, I wanted to start the meeting, but I got distracted and, and really just, um, have a moment of silence and really recognize, um, the horrific, um, experiences and the shooting, um, in Las Vegas, um, offering our thoughts and prayers and thank yous to the law enforcement and the first responders and the work that they're doing in that community, how horrific that must be to handle that as a community, um, and certainly to the families who have lost loved ones or been, um, injured. So I think it would be nice to just have a moment of silence to, um, acknowledge that. Okay, thank you. So now we can move on to, um, item eight, Garden Street phase one, the Williston Road intersections, and this is an approval to send out a formal, um, 19 BSA, um, chapter 33, notice of survey, or no, paragraph 33, notice of survey via certified mail to abutting landowners in project update. And Ashley Parker. Hi, good evening. Our weed warrior queen, along with other things, many other things. Can you say one thing? Yes. So I keep going over here because I'm trying to turn, slowly turning it up, trying not to slow the room, but if people can be a little more conscious of their microphones. So every time I come over here, I'm turning it up just. Okay, so you want it closer? Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Charlie. Well, good evening. I am here to provide an update, um, on the Garden Street phase one Williston Road intersection project. Um, just as a reminder, this is, uh, a project location map to give you an idea of what this isn't entailing. Um, it's along Williston Road, mostly between the intersections of White Street and Myers Drive, and Patchin Road, and Hinesburg Road. Currently, um, just to back up, I guess, the council in February of 2016 adopted a resolution, um, proving the preferred alternatives at Williston Road for the Garden Street project. Um, currently, the design has reached the 60% mark. And, um, it is, we are trying to incorporate some stormwater improvements into that design. Um, we have been coordinating with utility companies, um, throughout this design, and we are also coordinating with property owners, um, that are involved with the project. And we have also, just to note, we have received an Act 250 jurisdictional opinion. Um, this project will not require an Act 250 permit to do. So in terms of updates, to zoom in a little bit, this is the intersection of White Street and Meyers Drive. And the main goal of this project is to make these intersections, uh, safer for cars, bikes, and pedestrians. So this intersection would have a realignment to provide for a safer intersection. It would also allow for shorter and safer crosswalks. And we'd also be including a separate bike and pedestrian path, that you can see in the lower right hand corner there, as it wraps around Wilson into, um, Meyers Drive. Hold on for a second, if you could. Hey Pat. Pat? Yeah. We're gonna make sure the, um, Ashley's going through some slides on the screen. We'll make sure that you get these, um, sent to you first thing in the morning. That's fine, not a problem. Can you hear her as well, Pat? Um, not as well. It hurts just a little muscle. If it's live, could she watch it? Um, cctv.org? Yeah. You ever want to turn on the tube? You could watch it. Five minute delay. Oh, five minute delay? Oh, okay. Alright. Channel 17. I'll try to speak. I'll get it in the morning. Okay. Speak louder though, if you could. Yes. So, I ended on the separate bike and pedestrian path. And then, um, the realignment of the intersection would, um, require a complete taking of the accent travel parcel, which is on the corner of, it's basically where the blue triangle is on my slide there. It's not taking yet. No, not yet. It might not be a taking, it might be negotiated then. Yeah. Oh, I thought we had already negotiated that. No? It has been negotiated, not by others. Oh, okay. That's good. Yeah. But it's not, um, and it would not be a taking in my case. Um, there's also, there's also an opportunity for a pocket park. Um, lots of opportunity to do some more landscaping all around the intersection, including adding trees to the streetscape. And then in the bottom, um, right there, we would be realigning the stone wall that currently exists that wraps around the Palmerville property there. So the pocket park is that top circle. And that's, that's the property that would be right in front of the haircut place. Is that where that is? Yes. Okay. I can't remember the name of it. The blue triangle. That's where, that's where the accent travel parcel currently is. Okay. My best job at estimating that. So that means that building has to be brought down, right? Yeah. The whole building. Because right now the street is where that pocket park is. Yes. Mm-hmm. So it's not aligned. You make that S. Right. It makes that weird turn. Mm-hmm. Can you just tell me which building you were referring to? I know where you were at on that, you know, triangle piece. But which one were you referring to that would be removed? Accent travel, uh, building. That's it. And, and the hair salon, would that also? No, the pocket park would potentially go in front of that where the street is now. Right. It would fill the street. So there's a little triangle that would go from street to something else. I got you. Thank you. So, so the, there would no longer be an entrance directly from White Street into the hair cutting place though and Zachary's and Silver Palace and higher ground and all of that. As currently designed, there are, there's maybe two entrances there that would be getting sealed off. Although if you'll notice, we do have a curb cut in, I guess that's in front of the haircut place. On the left. Right. But we are still, we are still, you know, talking with property owners and going through that process. So, It's, it's fine. I'm not raising an objection in effect. I think it makes it safe for two. I think that the entrance to the hair cutting place being so close to that intersection. I mean, people generally are very polite and attentive to one another. So there generally is an understood kind of protocol that you let people enter and exit there while you're waiting at the light. But it, nevertheless it is an unusual, yeah, intersection. Right. Um, go around the intersection. Yeah. They cut through that parking lot. I've seen them. So that theoretically would be, you know, partially cut off there. According to this one. This layout. Um, continuing down Williston Road, um, you'll see that the shared bike and pedestrian path continues. Um, I guess it's the south side there. And then it'll go back to just a shared use path in front of the shopping center. Um, and that's how it'll continue down the rest of Williston Road. Um, something else to point out is we would be moving that bus stop location from where it currently is. And I can't remember now if it's, it's in front of the shopping. I think Mar is it Mar? La Quinta. La Quinta. Um, and it's going to be down in the far right corner there in the bottom. Um, we've been working with GMTA and it would get a new shelter and it'd be a new location closer to the intersection. And they've said that that would be better for them as well. Um, we would also include some stormwater treatment underneath. Um, the plantings on the south side of Williston Road. Um, again, additional street trees on both sides of the street, which would improve the streetscape there and some more landscaping and new street lighting, which would greatly improve, um, what's currently along Williston Road. And then we move towards the Patchen Road, Heinsberg Road intersection. And again, the goal of this is to realign that those two are Patchen Road and Heinsberg Road to provide for a safer intersection and shorter and safer crosswalks for pedestrians and bicyclists. And again, we would be including more landscaping and trees and the path would be wider than it is now. Um, it'd be about 10 feet. Heinsberg Road is the one that uh, it's the one that goes down. Yeah. Patchen is going up. So I don't see that the two turn lanes going north or coming south or those aren't being eliminated, are they? No. They're just not shown on this diagram? Right. I took the landscaping plan. It'd be great if you could add a right-hand turn lane only going north on to Williston Road from Heinsberg Road because the straight ahead people have to wait for the, there's a left-hand only turn lane. It's too late for all this because you've already done your designs, but every time I take that, it's like I wish there was a right-hand turn lane and there's a ton of room on that parking lot for Gracie's that, you know, they have to move their sign back, but, because that's going to be a very busy intersection when City Center gets filled out. Right. So, three lanes there. Three lanes on the right-hand going north, left, center, and right. You know, I don't know if it's too late to plan for that, but do you have to take any land from the Gracie's parking lot at all at this point? I think it's, I think it's pretty minor. It's on the north side. On the north side? Yeah. I mean, do you have a traffic study that was done that has predictive usage based upon City Center filling out? Yeah. It may not be D level, you know, but that is a tricky intersection at about, you know, 745, as is every intersection in our city that has high volumes. So. What? Well, Pat, oh, you didn't hear any of that. So for the record, Alana Blanchard, project director, and so there is a model for both of the intersections. And so we can take a look at that and see how the traffic movements are. One of the parallel projects that's being undertaken by public works is the City is partnering with Chinatown Regional Planning Commission to work on adaptive signal control for both of these intersections, as well as other intersections along Williston Road and Dorset Street. And so that should free up additional capacity at both of these intersections as well. So we can certainly ask about that. So do we, can I just ask, so do we expect the adaptive controls to be coincident with the construction of this design? I would hope that they would come before construction. Oh, okay. Oh, so that might drive some additional changes if you use the adaptive signaling and you still have bottlenecks that you thought would eliminate or help. It's hard to know because traffic is always rearranging itself in search of the best, the optimal. So we'll see how it works out. And it may take this whole area, we'll have Market Street under construction next year and hopefully we'll have this under construction either next year or the following year. And that all of that will also create short term, but certainly will require some rerouting of traffic during that period. So sometime probably before we can really see, but we do have the models and we can look at them and see what they say. We have a question from the audience. Just a comment. I live in that neighborhood and I don't find that intersection to be a problem at all. Coming from which direction? Either way. So it gets to be a big hassle in terms of creating a third lane. That's why I'm going to defer to the traffic study. Yeah. So just for what it's worth. Tim doesn't like to idle. Well, I don't idle. I just sit there and my electric motor goes zero. It's more an issue of when the pedestrians don't pay attention to the crosswalks. Then there's a problem with the people making the right turn. The adaptability I would like is for the crossing signal to terminate when the pedestrian or the bicyclist has crossed the road. That'd be great. That's what I would like to see. It's a little camera that says, oh, they're done. You know, boom. I'm not sure how sensitive the adaptive signal control is, but it is much smarter than what we have today. If Skynet takes over now, I'd be happy. Okay. Okay, so next steps. We are in the position to begin the right-of-way process, acquisition process. And because this project is a little bit different than Market Street, it's going to be administered by the city. It requires the city to send out official notices of survey to budding property owners and owners. And so I have in the memo that was attached to your packet, there is a recommended motion at the bottom that would allow for that so that we could start the process and move into the right-of-way. So I move that the council authorize the survey of existing TH number one, Williston Road, TH number 176, Midas Drive, TH number four, White Street, TH number two, Patchin Road, and State Route 116, Hinesburg Road. And further to authorize the city attorney to provide notice of intent to survey to a budding landowners by certified mail pursuant to 19VSA section 33. Second. Any further discussion? Yes. So the necessity to send the certified mail to the landowners is to notify them of the survey that's going to be done? Yes. Okay. But they already know that something's going to happen. Is that fair? Yes. Okay. This is a legal formality. Oh, she is. Sure. Okay. That's what I figured I'd just like to know. Pat, do you have any questions? Well, the only question I had is, how many landowners are we talking about? 14 or 15. Yeah, sounds about right. Well, I'd be able to tell which landowners you're referring to by what I read tomorrow morning. It's everybody, it's everybody, but pretty much between the White Street, Williston Road, Midas Drive Intersection, and the Patchen Road Intersection, Pat. So we'll try to pull those names and properties up for you and send that out so you have that list. That would be fine. Thank you. No other questions? So we have a motion and a second with no further discussion. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Four to zero. Thank you very much. Item nine is an update on the library move to transitional space at the University Mall. Jennifer Murray, our librarian, is here to lead that conversation. We also have a handout for this, which we'll get to you tomorrow morning as well, Pat. Just some design. Thanks. Madam Chairwoman, if I may give a second handout? Yes. Please do. Just kind of an FAQ sheet that we've been in the Seattle Library about the project. There is more in the back for the public. So the handout that Kevin left for you with all the pretty pictures on it will probably stir up most of the conversation. I want to answer questions and also just let you know that things are moving along pretty smoothly on the library end of things as we prepare for this move. We have had a couple of months where this was kind of pending and I was confident that it was going to happen. So we took that time to start preparing collections and spaces. So we've had 30,000 items have passed through staff or volunteer hands in the process of separating out the high school and community nonfiction collections. We haven't done fiction yet, but we'll be working on that soon. The children's collection is being gone through now to make sure that everything is clean and fixing tears and finding out which items are so well loved that we need to replace them. And I'm in daily contact with the high school librarian about what our next steps are so that what we're doing to pull things apart minimizes the impact that it has on the high school students and staff. So the process that we've gone through so far is Kevin assigned a Coral Lee home to be the project manager and his rationale was that one, that she has experience doing big projects that I don't have and two, that he knew that we would simultaneously be working on the architectural, choosing the architects and talking to the architects about the Barkett Street project and I also have to run a library. So Coral Lee has gotten a lot done. She's very good at moving ahead and so she and I confer about some things and other things she just runs with them. All the furniture and the modular walls and the shelving have been selected and ordered. We have not yet heard of when things will be delivered and that the information particularly about the shelving is key to the timeline for the actual move. So I cannot tell you tonight when exactly we'll be moving we're still hoping to have a soft opening on November 15th. We'll know more as soon as the shelving company gets back to the designers and Coral Lee. So I'm not sure if there are particular questions that you have. If you want to go over any of the pretty pictures I do want to Kevin and I want to invite you to come to the site at the U Mall for your next meeting to start your meeting there at 6.30 on the 16th. At that point we don't know what will have been done so it might be the same way it does today or it might have some paint or some wiring hanging from the ceiling. So those things are all kind of moving and being juggled in the time that we have. I'm also working closely with Al Reid who is the IT person here for the city and who has been very generous with his time and expertise in getting us up and ready because all of the technology that we've been using has been school based and he was shocked when we all got together to realize that schools have different contracts for software than a public library would so all of our computers have to either be completely updated or purchased anew for those whose time has come anyway. So he's working on the phone lines and the computers and the software so it's really a team effort. Questions? Megan? I know that office space and bathroom was for the staff something that is desired. Could you show me on the plan? I guess the first page is the best one. I just kind of leave through it. Is this the office space and bathroom for the staff here on the far right? So if you turn this towards you so that that furniture that Coralie selected is right there you're entering from the mall. The stores had used that white walkway kind of as a runway to their specials. If you keep so on the left just as you come in is the circulation desk and right behind that there's space for the circulation librarian so that she can be aware of what's happening on the desk and be available for questions and for backup. Which is something we haven't been able to do in the space that we're in. If you keep going near the end of the white trail on the left there is an office for me and for the adult services librarian. And if you keep going all the way to the white wall and directly to your right there is a work room staff space for the children's librarian and for her part-time assistant and volunteers as needed to get children's services stuff done. Then in the back area we have desks for our tech services assistant and our circulation assistant and adult services assistant and that's also where our subs will work when they're there to fill in and where volunteers will work. So that's that stuff. Now the bathroom is not doesn't have the capacity so if you go to the door there and a little square on the back left hand corner and that is a bathroom that is designed just for internal use. So those are those things. Do you want the rest of the tour too? Sure. The back corner there on the top left, what is that? Top left is there's a mechanical room and then the small one is the bathroom. So the bathroom's kind of in the mechanical room and then it's not shown on this picture but if you continue through the mechanical room that's where the loading dock is. So all of our deliveries of books and supplies have to come in through that back door. And that's an exterior wall of the mall, correct? The key was not available on the day that I was there so I have not gone through that back door to tell you exactly where it comes out. On the exterior of the mall on the back alley. So if we go back to the front just for the rest of the tour coming in you'll see book displays a lot like you do now highlighting new materials. On the right is adult fiction. We'll have some lower shelves where there'll be newspapers and special collections that we'd like to highlight that haven't gotten a lot of attention where they've been for the last few years like beautiful oversized coffee table books the Vermont collection could go there that is yet to be specifically determined. I haven't finished the mapping. If you keep going down the white lane we have large print and maybe biography for adult biography. If you turn left after the two round circle things there that's where the computers are. So now we will have six dedicated computers for the public and they'll be using the software that we bought last year to sign up for one hour increments with an individual limit. Right now it's two we'll see if that works or whether we want to extend it to three. We'll just have to see what the use is when we get there. The shelves on the left are nonfiction and there's a seating area that's also for charging. Down the hallway there there's an odd shaped rectangle and that's another one of Coralie's contributions. She wanted to have some really modern looking furniture in the new library and this is a little it reminds me of when you're on a merry-go-round and you're not riding the horses but you're on a little two-seater, two bench little... Oh there's a picture of it. It's got like a canopy. Right like a carriage. Oh I forget there are more pictures in the back. So that's what that is and we'll be interested to see who sits in it teens, parents with kids, grown-ups and then depending on that we may move things around a little bit. We did get some shelves on wheels where we could because we want to be moving towards having that flexibility in our permanent location as well. So then as you go down we do have some seating in the front that's informal and it's also flexible so that double question mark can be taken apart so people can make smaller smaller more intimate seating if they choose to and then there are work tables in the front so because of where we've been so far people are really accustomed to sitting at tables so Coralie and I had to really talk about that she's created a couple of different comfortable seating spaces which we want but not at the expense of having tables because that's what people are used to and some people really are spreading out and doing whatever their personal work is on tables so we've got the two tables at the front and the two at the back and then over to the left is the programming conference room and over to the right well straight ahead we have AV so that'll be books on CD and DVDs and then the funny shaped rectangle area is the beginning of the children's area and those pictures are not really reflective of what's going to happen Meg and I are working with a volunteer who is putting casters on all of the book bins that she has in the children's room now for the picture books so that she can create that space however she wants to easily right now it is more complex so all those things will be on wheels to be able to create a space for the picture books that also maintains the integrity of the murals that are painted on the inside of them is that approximately the same space as you have now for that children's section I haven't measured that specifically that's a good question but I don't know originally I said can we keep the children's room exactly the way it is and move it over and just not have walls but because the building is already long and narrow having that long and narrow just took up too much space so I don't know if it is but I think her shelving is comparable and then we go into the back and we will have so one of the things that because we're using modular walls and it is a transitional space is that the walls are not going to go to the ceiling I think she said there were going to be nine foot walls so one of the things that we just talked about today is back in the right hand corner we have some storage where we're also putting a staff table the only round table in the back right hand corner and so we're going to put up a wall with a door there and consider that a small meeting room for staff so that I can have personal conversations and things like that back there if I need to instead of making my office bigger and it wouldn't matter because you might still be able to hear over and I have such a shy and retiring voice that yeah okay so then the only other space we haven't talked about is right after the programming area on the left there is a programming storage area which is going to be really helpful for both adult and children's programs because we can keep some things there and just move in the back door to take them right into whoever is waiting for them we do have a little sink back there so that's for cleaning toys and preparing watercolors and also filling the coffee or tea as needed for the public programs so that's the tour and it was fun we had our staff meeting there last week or the week before giving everybody a chance to see the space prior to that we had only been in their shopping for leggings ooh look at those leggings taking pictures so this was the first time that we were all in there together the space was wide open and it was really fun because some people can visualize things in their brains better than other people but there were a lot of people who could say oh I can see it yeah I can see that there I can see those things over there other people were running around with measuring tapes to try to really understand the space so we're excited about it can I ask you one of the concerns that we've heard and I don't know how accurate it is that there potentially might not be enough shelving for all of your collections and that might very well be the case so I guess my question is as you determine which books belong to the high school which books are yours I suspect you're also finding books that perhaps haven't been checked out for a while yep and so are you in terms of kind of making sure you have the space for the books that are in demand are you putting them into storage potentially so in the new library which will have more space than this you could bring them back out or maybe you just retire them because no one's reading or you have ten of that copy and the demand just isn't there for ten so selection of books and de-selection of books is a constant process in a public library so we have criteria that we use and often there is a piece of that which is it hasn't been out in a long time and then we also compliment that with it's in a reference that recommends core collections for libraries of our size so a combination of those two things is being considered when we're deciding which books we are keeping and which books we are not books that haven't gone out in several years are not likely to get more popular sitting in storage so that we can unpack them after seven years or eight years so mostly we are doing several things first I'm offering them to the high school to augment their collection if that's useful to them I'm offering some to the friends of the library for their book sale and then others are being sent away to an online bookseller or better world books oh, okay, thank you and it's that's more of an issue with non-fiction because because of the school's mission versus our mission we didn't do a lot of weeding of adult non-fiction because the school was concerned that we would be giving away or deleting things that the students might need so now we might choose to delete them because they haven't gone out but the school has an option to claim them if they want to they just recently went through all the poetry and literature for example because those were curriculum related does that answer your question? yes, no that does and it sounds like it's both cathartic and useful in terms of the first move is you figure out really what the collection can and should look like and also identify gaps and one of the things that I've learned because I have had a chance to put my hands on a lot of these 30,000 books is that we really need to be able to display our non-fiction more widely so we want to make sure that we have room at the ends of shelves to do face outs that we have room on other displays to put books out, face out because we have a really fascinating collection but if you don't know what's there you don't know to look for it and so you don't find it so moving to a mall and having to increase our merchandising they kind of go together so that's something that I've been very aware of when I've been going through the books is we really need to get them out so that people can see them more often walk around and get pointers that's right are there other questions? Pat do you have any? I just had one comment, Jennifer thank you very much I was picturing as you were describing the area there and it sounds wonderful I know that we are going to have furniture for the new library the temporary library but I did have a concern that there was a concern that was voiced by library trustees that the furniture would not look very good at the end of three years and that to me is a very short period of time to have furniture left do you have any concerns that this furniture will not look appropriate in a new library in three years? Pat I think that we're not buying that much furniture that it is a major concern for me Coralie has selected the same vendor of furniture that she's used here in City Hall and I think part of her reasoning is that it is supposed to last a good long time and it's also wipeable so it's easy to clean so I'm hopeful about those two things I also think that these pieces of furniture are going to be able to transfer to a new space without taking over the space because there really aren't that many pieces that are being purchased for this location there was a moment where she suggested that we replace our circulation desk for example and because it's not wired internally and for various reasons it's not up to date and at that point I demurred and said no I don't think that's a good idea because a circulation desk is a major design feature that we want to save until we have a permanent library that's not about condition that's more about about whether we can design around the pieces of furniture that we have so I'm hoping they're going to last if we've chosen something that doesn't last we would have to deal with it wherever we were even if we bought a new chair in our current situation if we made a mistake and bought something that doesn't last we'd have to replace it or repair it but I'm hoping that because these were designed these were chosen because they were sturdy and because they create flexible space and they're washable that we will be happy to use them in the market street location thank you that just reaffirms what my thought was I thought if we were buying furniture that wouldn't last more than three years we were making a serious mistake right Tim had a question with Al Reed sort of taking over the IT aspect I remember from my time from the board of trustees that the school had a barracuda network filter on the internet library which was different than in the high school is that true I don't think anybody is using barracuda at this point so the school has filters on their computers which includes the ones that to us are towards the back that the public can use then we have deep freeze and something else on the computers at the front which are on our system so is he going to lift and bring that over or is that all high school hardware that they own in terms of the networking is he going to bring some of that? he's going to have to start the networking over and the deep freeze will come with us but deep freeze isn't the kind of filtering that you're talking about topical filtering and public libraries across the country use very little filtering so yeah so we'll have to I'm not sure what he's suggesting for that kind of filtering I know the city uses some and we just might have different levels of it in the public library so the wireless experience for a user at the new library should be less filtered than being in this high school library for wireless that comes through our Comcast account so it should be the same it should be the same it's only the wired computers in that back area that have the school filters on them I had another question too have you talked to people in the last few weeks on both sides of this issue and have been able to extend to those who right now are resistant to this change and sort of elucidated them these ideas and concepts and have you brought someone to your side at all do you think what my staff and I are finding is that people are coming in mostly with questions so then they might be neutral or on one side or the other a little bit but mostly with questions and that if we can have a one on one experience with them answering questions that the vast majority say oh that makes sense okay and that they're satisfied there are some people for whom that doesn't work but I'd say the vast majority are looking forward to seeing what happens in the new space Megan just the entrance is that going to go from floor to ceiling the the entrance the wall and the entrance we'll go from floor to ceiling as I understand it you mean as a facade from in the mall if you're in the mall in the mall so it's all glass there'll be glass above and then there'll be two separate doors rather than a big wide door which apparently there's security reasons I'm not sure if it's theft or trampling but where they recommend that we have two separate doors rather than one wide door but yes that is my expectation okay so that's added security for us all the other stores I think are just an open garage door security thing that goes up but for us because of young children moms and dads we wanted to have a higher level security so they just don't go out in the mall and the noise will be affected as well so those doors will probably stay closed so you won't hear the music that's correct and they've agreed to turn the music off when we have our winter concert series out in the lobby right in front of the library that'll be very nice for the community and shoppers yeah there's a nice skylight there so I think that'll be we're hoping the sound acoustics are decent I know we've taken a lot of time and I thought I might be short on the agenda so any other questions this is very helpful thank you and I think the pictures are helpful too do you have them on display in the library? I just got this today so I will put them on display in the library and Kevin will they corally put them on the web page or something like that yes we'll probably take some down if we're allowed to do it with them all and put them in the windows so people can see them on display that's a great idea if you have a pdf of this I'd like to have that soft copy I'd like to post that on some facebook groups where people can learn about this I think that would be great what email would you like to use just it just sent me the pictures and it looks wonderful it really does I wasn't playing with my phone I was taking pictures of them and sending them oh no that was not possible thank you and I want to invite all of you if you have an hour or two that you would like to help with making this transition happen just give me a call and send me an email and I'll put you to work can we take out like a hundred books each and then keep them and then bring them back I will let you know when that time has come please don't do it right now because I'm trying to measure and map the collection don't do it yet thank you very much I want to have two books out those two are okay all right item 10 counselors reports from committee assignments and I liked adults already gave mine a call 17 earlier you need a hard stop it 8 o'clock okay are there any other committee assignments quick ones I guess Tom would have had a long one from his retreat and Pat you didn't have a airport commission meeting it was unfortunately I was in route to Boston I had a terrible connection on the interstate so I had to excuse myself from the meeting last week all right well then we completed that then we'll move on to 12 item 12 we'll skip item 11 I apologize for those interviewees but this will be a real quickie we'll move on to item 12 which is the necessity and compensation damages hearing market street reconstruction project STP 1200 I guess 17 and there are temporary permanent easements from Dorset street investment group temporary and permanent easements from Dorset square associates and temporary easements from century partners LP so chair I move that the council open the necessity and damages hearing for the market street reconstruction project STP 5200 17 warned and duly noticed pursuant to 19 vsa chapter 7 9 at 8 p.m. tonight on this date as further specified in item number 10 of tonight's council agenda it's item number 12 number 12 excuse me and second second okay we've been moved and seconded any discussion oh yes my name is Manisha Munchie understanding is that this is where you continue but to the extent that my presence should be on the record I wanted to know thank you so it's been moved and seconded all in favor aye okay and now what we need so now I move to continue the public hearing on necessity and compensation damages pursuant to 19 vsa 10709 for the alteration of the town highway right away from our history town highway 228 until 8 p.m. on November 6th of this year at this city hall by the second second any discussion all in favor signify by saying aye aye any opposed okay Pat Pat did you hear the vote you would lose her could I just request that you sign in at the back so that our note taker could have the correct spelling Pat are you still there who shows it's connected Pat did you mute your phone I'd say silence is golden maybe not in this case we don't have a vote from her yet right we have three is there a requirement for us to record and try to make she's not responding to the taxi move ahead okay so let's we don't have to go we don't have a deliberate session okay so we'll we'll go back to item 11 which is the volunteer committee interview and we have two tonight it says we have two but we only had one is Frank here no but Larry is we don't have your application application but fortunately we know who you are yeah we know something about you for some things so my understanding is you're interested or you have applied for the affordable housing committee is that right and as you know I was on it at the inception and then it was disbanded and I think it's been together now for maybe a a year and a half or something like that yeah so I've decided to come back on okay and in the capacity I don't even know where you work right now are you still involved in I'm still involved in real estate I work as an independent contractor with Hickok and Boardman and other consulting work as well so you would bring to the table some of that perspective and knowledge about developing and building affordable housing I think I was in the meeting today they had a meeting today and I stopped in for the majority of the meeting and I think we're still the committee is still grappling with some of the same issues we were four years ago and that's I think the city has accomplished a lot the community has accomplished a lot the trust fund in place and we've got Cooper Smith on that and just doing a great job obviously we have the city contributing to that as well on an annual basis so that's wonderful but I think some of the issues that I revisited today in that meeting are determined what's the trigger for affordable housing is it 12 units is it 14 location city wide not city wide what's the income threshold is it 80% 90% 120% of income are we trying to serve and then you know what's the dollar amount that folks developers would pay in the event that they chose to pay for a unit of housing versus creating an affordable unit and those type of things so we've you know those were the same same conversations we were having for three and four years ago so I'm really interested in trying to move that help to move this agenda forward I think the skills I bring are my skills in development understanding what it costs to do development work being in real estate but apart from that that's the sort of professional side of me but I have this whole other side as a citizen of this town and somebody who really cares and feels deeply strongly that we need to expand housing for all populations and you know whether it's in specific areas or not is a conversation that the committee needs to have and bring that forward but I feel like I have the experience and more importantly the vision if you will to help expand affordable housing in the city great other questions that anyone might have I mean you certainly are aware of the time commitment and when they meet and the structure of the city and you probably have a full knowledge of what's on the agenda going forward as anyone I mean included in that I think is the conversation about can we find a funding source that is a little more perpetual or tax or of some sort or whatever to support it long term rather than the $50,000 a year that we're able to round up for it I think that's one of the items to discuss any other I'm trying to get it on my speaker okay council's interviewing Larry Michaels for affordable housing committee well we pretty much finished it but do you have any questions for Larry as you know he was on the original affordable housing committee and has been very active in different iterations of that I know Larry I've worked with him on a number of different projects for programs and I think he would be an excellent choice as I understand it we have two slots one of whom we filled right with Todd Rawlings Rawlings so and I think we gave Todd the two year is that what we did there's a two year term and a one year term do you care which one I can't recall what we gave Todd two year so this would be a one year term great would it stay a one year term or is it always a one year term well next round they'll probably be somebody on the committee with a longer term that wants to get off and you could say I'd like to commit to a two year or three year term sure I can't remember if there's any three year terms for oh wait no I'm sorry I'm reading the wrong thing it's two three year terms so you have a three year term that's and then we have another candidate Frank Davis who's not here tonight so we have two people and one has been appointed I don't know what we want to do about Frank he's also interested in wrecking parks but if we're finished with Larry do you have any other questions I could sit here and talk for two hours about affordable housing but I don't think we'll do that but I wish we could ask a question if you could start from scratch you know it's like how does the society spread the housing out fairly so that everybody gets to have a place you know because epidemiologists are talking now about how housing insecurity is actually causes a lot of illness through within a given society so the question is I mean you have all these factors you've got cost of land cost of construction like profit motive and a capitalistic real estate system that attempts to try to fill those voids and then government trying to to filter that so that you get the right combinations if you could start over from scratch I just wonder how you could do that and then satisfy or at least get everybody to compromise on the amount of profit that could come out of that equation and still fulfill a requirement of basic obligation for housing for everybody it's a lofty goal but I don't know if it has a place here but I wish that discussion would take place you know because we're already at a point where we have this X amount of housing and Y amount of need and that need covers a spectrum of incomes right and so then the question is you know it comes up to space and capital and all that stuff so Tim I don't know how to go backwards but what I can say and what I do feel is we just need to be very flexible and work with developers and other stakeholders who are involved in this effort and you know there needs to be a certain profit for people to be able to I mean it's not a big marching so that's why when somebody says 65% I mean you look at what's happened in Burlington over the past 10-15 years and they haven't created a whole lot of affordable housing and I don't think they've had anyone buy the bullet to pay $100,000 a unit that I don't think has happened I believe I was confirmed today so I'm not answering your question but I do think we need to work together and figure out you know whether it's setbacks, whether it's location whether it's height whatever those things are that help to reduce costs so that then we can you know aptly go forward to a developer and say hey can you bring something to the table here because we're going to give you it's about care it's not stakes so how do we do that you know I think we've done a good job there's models out there you know we're in a very I mean there's 34 homes on the market right now in Burlington I'm not sure about South Burlington but it's probably not a lot more than single family homes that's a tight market so 34 Burlington 2 just went into contract so and days on you know I don't know what the average right now days on market usually under 2 months you know absorption rates pretty pretty fast right now pretty fluid so it's a good time to start to continue this discussion because I think affordable housing in the environment of a strong housing market it's more pelletable if you will so I think we need to harness that now while we're in this market alright thank you hopefully I'm deaf on that one welcome to a via OP on this nevermind I'm trying on another line and it's not working please get your extension and town sign thank you very much you're welcome I just also I haven't been in this room and I was upstairs today in that conference room with the new window and I haven't been in this room in a long yeah I was like something's really different in here and I realized there was but the same in here the space looks great you guys have done a great job it feels really good and proud to come into this building now so thank you this is transparency in government right yeah once again thank you thank you very much we owe a lot of this to Cora the alright so what do we do about Frank he's on the just invited back some other time we got Roy now or who is still holding as well we know that we have a DRB resignation as of today and that's one it's it's on the it's on the new sheet yeah oh it was um thought C's been whiteed out yes David Parsons so we appointed him to the DRB and then he decided he couldn't do it is that what I'm understanding right went to one meeting you probably were there grilling him he was there so that was effective today yeah I got the email from Paul today I think his schedule has changed such that he knew he wasn't going to be able to make many of the meetings right and he was going to call in or something right to so we will have to go out and advertise because there was not another application so if in the course of doing that we can advertise other things as well but you have two committees to appoint to planning commission and bike and pad and then now the DRB so we can ask Frank we try to get a hold of Frank for affordable housing see if he can come in for a future interview okay so tonight we could do affordable housing and planning or do you want to meet me it's a pretty important but let's really hope that we can accomplish planning at the next meeting because they are they couldn't meet the other night because they didn't have a quorum what is the speaker Oh Tom was interested in that overseers caretakers of the cemetery we have people do that in the past we hear I think is about the only current living member of that group so we are in desperate need of some sextants for public cemeteries charter review committee doesn't have any No. So we should advertise those as well. So we need... Sextons. Sextons. City Charter Review. City Charter. And the DRB. And the DRB. We'll get ads out for that. Okay. Didn't Tom want to be a sexton? He did, but we need three. How many hours a week commitment is that? Huh? Is that quiet work? It's quiet. Yeah. It's not mowing. So it is quiet. Do I get a discount on a plot next to Olive Garden or not? We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. Okay. Okay. So moving right along to item 14. Consider and possibly approve the budget schedule for FY19. So a little bit of all things spiny. It's on a calendar here. So this is really the second time that you've seen this back in probably late spring. We showed you this with a few other items on it, which included the task of the committees to work over the summer to come formulate their objectives and their priorities for the CIP over the next year. So we're trying to remove that to kind of pick up with tonight's meeting on October 2nd. So tonight what we'd like to do is remove the word draft from this and officially make this our budget schedule and get that posted on our website. At the next meeting on October 16th, come to you with some major factors that we're aware of currently in terms of preparing budgets for next year. So look for your thoughts in terms of guidance on the FY19 general fund budget. And on November 3rd, come to you with the proposed CIP, which over the course of this next few weeks, we'll be working with our managers on to identify those items for the CIP. The goal here is to have a final draft of the general budget and the enterprise funds to you prior to the holiday break and then come back in January in this case on January 8th and have a special council meeting on the FY19 budget and schedule additional nights as needed. This keeps us in line with everything that needs to be posted and by when to meet our charter requirements and goes all the way up to town meeting. So even though we're not really meeting with the steering committee until January 24th, my understanding is that you are working with their budget person. I can't remember his name. With John, yes. Yeah, John Arvin. No, the right hand know what the left hand's doing a little bit ahead of time as difficult as that is since it's so separate. And we've each forwarded each other for the other night's instructions, the copies of our budget schedules as well. I think that's important. The more we can work together with them to the extent that's possible, the better it will be for the public and our requests going out there that we're not overburdening in any one particular time. Okay. So do we need a motion to approve the FY19 budget schedule? Okay. Any further discussion? Is Pat on or we just. Okay. All right. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Got it. I'm also just to go back to the previous item. The housing trust fund committee also didn't have an applicant. So if we are looking for, since we have one additional applicant for the affordable housing committee, maybe someone would be willing to fill that role since we need to fill it. Thank you. Alrighty. Okay. Item 15, social services funding allocation discussion. Do you need to take. Well, yeah, maybe just start by on tonight's warrant. You approved all the disbursements for the last year's selection and amounts that you approved for social services funding and typically those go out at this time of year and along with the check, we typically send the application form for the next fiscal year. So you approve it kind of a year ahead, so to speak, but we're currently in FY18 budget and we would be looking to approve expenditures for FY19. So we felt I have a summary of what was approved last year. We felt that this might be a good time to revisit this process. And I know Kevin has a thought that he'd like to share with you for consideration too. So I'll pass these out. Are our thoughts the same thoughts? I have no idea. Because we did have a conversation. Your thoughts are better than mine. Now we, Tom and I have been talking a lot about some of the very key issues that are affecting our community that we have been concentrating on over the last, well some number of years to include opiate addiction, mental health issues, and then some things very much closer to the public, direct services in our schools and so on. And we are able to support a lot of different organizations that you choose which amounts go to which, but we're wondering whether or not the council wants to make a bigger contribution to a handful of really key partners in addressing issues rather than multiple smaller contributions. We're doing a lot now with the Howard Center. We will be acquiring specific services from them for mental health, embedded mental health counselors. That's a program that we, and of course they're treating up to a thousand people for methadone. Three blocks from where we're sitting right now. An enormous problem of opiate addiction. And we would recommend a conversation that you would have to talk about whether or not you want to concentrate on one or two major service providers, plus the one or two local groups that really have an impact, what comes to our mind is packed. But, and make a bigger impact on one or two or three core providers. So that's our thought. We wanted to kick that off now because you're at the beginning of that cycle. You would be normally going to look at 19, fiscal 19 contributions over the next couple of months and deciding how you want to do that. But we wanted to kick off the discussion. And I had raised a similar, I did not know that Kevin and Tom had this conversation. But when we met, I was throwing out an idea that I would support us really thinking about focusing those dollars in ways that really have an impact, a greater impact potentially on the mental health and opiate addiction. Since we've really supported Kevin's work, it seems like that's an important thing for this community and has been identified as such. Knowing full well that all of these nonprofits do wonderful things and they can make a great case. And there probably are another 10 or 20 nonprofits in the community who are working very hard for our residents who are not on this list. But I personally would really support a conversation. I don't think we can have it tonight, but I would appreciate people thinking about that. And if you want to maintain the status quo, we potentially can do that. But just to think a little more creatively or differently for a couple of years to really focus on some really difficult issues for this community. Comments? I mean, are you willing to have the conversation? Oh, I'm willing to have the conversation. I don't know that I'd go down to two major and two local. That seems like it would be hard for me to stop some of them. I think the local ones that we had identified, Megan, were the Chillout Center, the Common Roots Pact, and the South Burlington Center, which were all South Burlington based. Does the city have its employee charitable contribution campaign of its own? We do not. But we have been asked by United Way to begin one this year. I think there may have been one years past and it fell by the wayside at some point. But we have been meeting with United Way and they have asked if we would start a new campaign with our employees. I'm in no way implying that there's any transfer of responsibility for these funding to employees. I'm just asking that question because where I work, when it was IBM, we had a Health and Human Services employee charitable campaign that then turned into a broad spectrum buffet, a banquet of almost any 501 3C was available. You could propose an inclusion of your own that you knew of. It was a web page that was all semi-automated. So it was a pretty good system. But then that company was sold. So the new company doesn't have quite the same choice. So I was just wondering if it's great for every employer to be able to give their employees the opportunity to see the spectrum of all of the organizations and all the good they do and then that education that might lead to some donations. I think I'd be open to discussion of perhaps some changes. Okay, great. I'm also wondering if we, I'm just thinking out loud, maybe I should hold it for the discussion, but you know me, I can't. It seems as if we can identify some sectors that we're really interested in in this city. I'm wondering if our applications can request organizations to respond. How would you, how does your organization address these needs? And some potentially won't be able to or will be fairly far-fetched perhaps or rather tangential rather than these are the services that we provide that really address those issues. It might be a way to help us. And caregivers or perhaps family members who suffer. In some way as a consequence. I mean, I think that there are, you know, many people who are affected by these issues who will not be treated by Howard Center, right? Oh, for sure. Yes, it's an enormous issue. And I'm not saying that we'll be able to necessarily winnow this down and have it so focused that we're going to lick this problem, but it seems like we're spreading out $40,000 pretty thinly in some sectors. And it's, you know, you always appreciate every contribution. It would be worth having a good conversation. So we should probably have that at the next meeting because we need to sort of have this lined up in whatever methodology we want to. Would we get a copy of the prior spreadsheet that showed how we had done this over the past few years? Yes. I said it. We, Tim is making a photograph of what Tom handed out, Pat, and we'll also get you hard copy of that. Tom has that list. He handed it out. So we'll get it to you. And the handwritten and pencil paid $2,000 to $5,619. What is that? 17. Oh, that's a 17. Yeah, we prepaid the insurance that was due. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Great. I think that will be helpful. Item 16 is consider and possibly approve fund reallocation of approved FY 18 budgeted funding. Yes. I identified some things with Paul that we're going to need funding for as he goes forward as the chief sustainability officer and with the climate alliance decision that kind of dovetails with that funding for some materials for the energy committee and the work they're doing along with Paul interns, that sort of thing. We could use some funding in that. And of course we're in the middle of the budget cycle. So it would have to come from something else. My recommendation as it was presented to you was to shift funding from three organizations that we have historically supported, the lake chamber, GBIC and the convention bureau and move that approximately $9,600 over into an account for the chief sustainability officer. So these items just like the social service items are in your, in your council budget category. And so I have under our charter, I have the authority to move things within a budget category. And we don't do it very often, but some, you have the authority at the last, during the last quarter of the fiscal year to actually move funding from one department to another. I don't have that authority at all. And so tonight my suggestion is that we reallocate this funding to the chief sustainability officer. But since it's in your budget, I thought you should make that decision. So we would set up an account there and shift the funds over. Would this be a one-time payment or would this be now looking into the future? I assume that the chief sustainability officer will be a permanent position in the city, that the work will be ongoing. The funding source would it continue to be? And the funding source would need to continue to be there. It doesn't mean that during budget development for fiscal 19, you can't refund these organizations and then create a special lion item account for the sustainability officer in the FY19 budget. But what we're looking to do is be able to do something now and get this off the ground. So. And what would the stop of payment, what impact would that have on what your office does with those? Clearly it's something that those organizations would feel strongly about. The largest one contribution is made to GBIC, that's $5,000. The convention bureau is second at 3600. I do know that all of our, or most of our properties, our hospitality properties are members of the convention bureau. And it's more of a direct support to them than it is to the city. They work together to identify conventions that might be interesting. These are members. I don't know how many other community have taxpayer funded support for the convention bureau. The smallest of the three is the chamber that's only $465. And so I don't think it would have a huge impact on that organization. But GBIC definitely will impact them. But I just think at this moment in time where, you know, they would argue differently, but it's hard for me to discern the return on investment there to start with. I think the return on investment by getting Paul off the ground and going with the budget is going to be more significant for our community. What does he need in his budget? What types of? Well, there's some things that the energy committee needs. They're out of their money for their advertising and promotional programs. So they need money. They've got the new advertisement banners and all made up. They need money to produce them. I think Paul is going to need to bring on board a couple of interns. And, you know, these are colleges. We will need to pay them. We will need to pay them. There may be some conference money in there. There may be some membership in national organizations, particularly on Climate Alliance where it's right out of the gate. It's a new thing. And they're trying to grow their organization and he's going to want to link into that. And there may be some other things like that we're not members of right now that might prove useful in national planning organizations that are getting into sustainability issues. So I just think having some funding available for him to actually take this on would be a good thing right now. Would he be limited to the 9000 plus or would this be added on to another? We might be able to get some grants from some organizations and I think that's one of the things we would look for. Didn't we also, maybe for next year, but the income that will be generated from the solar farm? Yeah. Didn't we specifically request, I mean we created a fund and with the, one of the intentions to support energy efficiency among other things. So I think that's another source of money for the energy committee as well. And perhaps for Paul as sustainability. That was really designed to be a projects fund, actually making investments in municipal buildings to, for some period of time to do energy efficiency and conservation improvements. So it's more of a capital fund. I mean it's more of an investment in our buildings than it is in programs. But we can change that. But it could be a program because the returns would be conceivably just as great as putting LED lights in, you know, if you really got everyone turning everything off when they walk out. Well that's the commons energy approach too. I don't want to interrupt, but when it's my turn would you let me know? Yeah. Are you finished with me? Tim? Okay. Pat, your turn. Now I do have some thoughts on this. One of my first thoughts was that I wish we had been told that there was going to be costs in the range of $9,000, at least up front so we knew this, and where the funds were going to come from. Being told after the fact, Kevin, I'm rather disappointed. And where the money is being suggested it comes from troubles me. While it might be that we do not see a direct result of a convention bureau's contribution or a GBIC's contribution or whatever, I believe that there are things that do happen but just possibly also in other areas that do help us. And I think while we are taking on the largest project our city has ever done municipality-wise with our downtown to several relationships with these organizations is very imprudent. I also had thought along Helen's lines that the monies that were coming off the solar array were funds that while we might need some for... I don't want to say operations, but for other items that you have mentioned that there would be funds coming off that that my understanding was in the range of around $7,000 a month that it would be missing about a little over a month's worth to maintain these memberships. I see us segregating ourselves from other joint... where other communities jointly participate. And I'm disappointed that South Wellington seems to be distancing themselves by most such as this. I would like to have had the opportunity to have had the heads of these organizations, Frank or Tom or whatever, come in and explain what their relationship is with municipalities and how important it is before we would make a decision to just arbitrarily, and I think rather capriciously, cut that. We seem to have been able to find funds for everything. Library furniture, we found funds to help a Mozart group, we found funds to help the youth center, and now I'm looking and saying in order to fund this that I had no idea that there were funds needed for this that weren't accounted for already, and now to be told after the fact that this is how it gets funded. Very disappointed. I feel it wasn't being fair to the counselors. At least I felt a little short shrift by getting this information after the fact. And that's my feeling. So I feel we shouldn't make a decision on it now. I think all of the council should be present when it's decided, and I'd like to hear from the heads of those organizations before we cut off relationships with them. I just wanted to say that I think Pat's concerns are valid. I wasn't here two weeks ago, but I think that the thought that the cost would have been stated upfront is something that would be best practices. I too have been beating the drum to develop relations with the larger business community so that our city center can really take off. So I hear that concern too. I hear at the same time that we had cut the energy committee's funds from this year's budget and that this was something that was a real regret. And I do hear the importance of sustainability and a lot of forces are vying right now. I just wanted to affirm what you said, Pat. It's possible to have them. I did get an email late in the day, and probably many of you haven't seen it, from Mr. Bowman from GBIC, except Bowman. Is that how you pronounce it? Bowman? It's an annual update about their value. So perhaps we should hear from them in person and be able to query them specifically, because these numbers are, as I read them, for the entire county and not just South Burlington. So it would be good to know really what they feel that GBIC has done positively for us. We certainly haven't helped us at this point with even putting forward a regionalization discussion. One would think that the greater Burlington industrial what's the C-stand for? Corporation would find that something of value. Without knowing what a study would end up, they would think that they would support that. Same with the Lake Champlain Regional Chamber. Formally, they haven't even taken it up. They've been apprised. No, I don't know if they've been approached to support it. And that may be a conversation. Maybe we need to understand from them. They're fully aware of the discussion. I mean, how could you not be? Right, but they have chosen to be mute, I guess. One would think they might have some thoughts for or against and be interested in sharing it with us. Wait, let me get this straight. We were making an annual donation to the GBIC. We have been for years. At the July 7th lawsuit hearing in Rutland, we paid our legal counsel to furnish the amicus curio on behalf of the litigants, but we'd also donated to the GBIC and they were there on behalf of the defendants. I just made that connection to realize that. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? Although that, I can appreciate that as much because whatever. They potentially were getting feedback from all of their constituencies. But I mean, I guess it is related to governance of the airport, but I do find it interesting that there's no comment from them other than silence. Can I ask, because I do believe in a second note I did ask Kevin, have them in other areas looked at Kevin that would fund this $9,000 that's so urgently needed? Yeah, there are other areas of the budget path that we could cut, but they're direct programmatic things to run the city. These are contributions we make to outside organizations that really, I struggled to find, figure out what the return on investment is. So I went there because I thought that that was better than not buying a piece of equipment or not being able to fund other city activities. This is purely discretionary money. Most of what the city does is not discretionary. It's obligated. We bought new furniture. Yeah, but those are obligations the city has to provide services path. I think the distinction here, which is a strong one is these are discretionary dollars, along with the social service dollars, which we talked about earlier, that the council can decide how to best invest those dollars. Along with our stipends. And your stipends. It's a throw it out there. But that's why, that's exactly why. And we're also advocating around social services tonight as well. I understand what you're saying. I know we have a lot of new furniture at City Hall, and I think it all looks very nice. I just wish we had been told ahead of time what this was, what the obligation was going to be, and where this was going to come from. Instead of being told after the fact. Well, you don't have to fund this path. I mean, the council does not have to make this decision to fund this. This is totally in your bailiwick. If you don't wish to fund it, that's your decision. I don't think I can't speak for you, Kevin, but as I recall the conversation with Paul Conner about his new designation and how that might assist the city, there wasn't discussion about, and I'm going to need more money. But I think as, and frankly, we didn't approve that. It was just in some ways, courtesy and transparency, if you will, of Kevin sharing with us. This is a management decision on my part, and I'm proud of it. I think it's helpful for the community, and Paul was willing to take on new obligations, if you will, that he felt would add to the city's health and vibrancy. But I don't think, Kevin, you ever said, and by the way, we're going to need some more money. And I think that's fine. I don't think you always have to have a price tag with all of your changes. We asked Paul if he could incorporate this in his time, and he said he could. But I think probably as they flesh out what the possibilities are some additional funds for extra help to really take on the projects that are important to the community. It became clear that money was needed. And, you know, we can go forward this year without any extra money for this. We can build it into the next budget. But I think this was just an opportunity and an option that management brought to us as a possibility. I do think that it would be helpful to, before we make the decision, to hear from the three groups. I'm not sure the Lake Champlain Regional Chamber of Commerce is going to show up for 465 bucks, but the other two probably might. And I think it's important for us. I mean, we grill the Winooski Valley Parks Department. We have a member on the board of the GMV, that's what it's called now, Green Mountain GMT. And, you know, and a member on Channel 17, which are some are huge expenditures that we make, so that we understand we get reports back about what they're doing for us or what not, what they're not doing. So I think this is probably as important. And, you know, they didn't send this out until they got word that maybe they weren't going to get paid. Is it an all or nothing? I mean, is it over $4,000 or zero, or is there? Yeah, there is a specific dues structure that the organizations have. So if you'd like, I can invite Frank and Tom to come in at the next meeting and talk to you about how they invest the taxpayer dollar. Yeah? Yeah, for South Burlington. I don't need to know what they've done for Burlington. I'd like Tom Chittenden's opinion as well. He's not here tonight, but yeah. But he would hear from those three and we can have that conversation. I'll see if they can come in at the next meeting. Great. Excellent. Thank you. Because I agree with you, Pat, too, that I think it would be helpful to hear from them. So it doesn't look petty, but I would like to know what we're getting for that investment. If we're going to talk about cutting $500 to the, you know, blind and visually impaired, we should know what we're getting for $5,000 to a business organization. Sounds good. Excellent. Good. And maybe we can give them some ideas about how they could be more proactive for South Burlington. That'd be nice. Yeah. Thank you, Kevin. We're down to other business and Pat, you'd raise the email that we continue to get from David. How do you pronounce his name? Viola? Viola. Yeah, David Veeu. Veeu. And I was hoping that maybe we could get, and I thought we were going to, and I think you did get back to him, Helen, and he wasn't thrilled with the answer, apparently. No, apparently not. Well, we were going to get something from Andrew to answer that. Whether it was, you know, a First Amendment right that people can panhandle or can we restrict any areas. And it's not that I care whether David decides he wants to put something in the newspaper. That isn't it. I just feel like he hasn't had an answer that answered his concern. And this is only on city property, city street right of ways. We don't control private parking lots or their ingresses or exits, right? Right. We don't control the end of the interstate. That's federal property, right? We don't have jurisdiction over that. So then a question boils down to, is there a specific intersection that we do control that he's concerned about? Listen, I'm not defending him or whatever, but what I'm looking at is to say he had brought up the fact that he felt that this had moved from Wellington to South Wellington and that it was going to infiltrate onto Market Street as we grow. And was there any policy that we had, and if we could have it answered by Andrew that there is, we have no legal right to stop this, then we have something we've given to him that is more than just, well, maybe it does get affected by it or not. I just want it so we can put this to bed. I don't disagree. And Kevin and I had a chat about this this afternoon, and he agreed to ask Andrew to do that. And also we could hear from... Trevor. Trevor. My understanding is we don't have a... What do you call it? An ordnance. We don't have an ordnance. So at this point we can hear from Trevor about how he deals with the safety issues. And Andrew, I think it would be very helpful to share what the state law looks like and what we can or cannot do and take it from there. I would like to find out is there, are we even allowed to bring forth, if we chose, I'm not saying we are, but if we chose, are we allowed to bring forth an ordnance that would inhibit this? Uh-huh. Yeah, no. I mean, I think there are some troubling First Amendment rights that might get trampled. The last thing I want to do is pass an ordinance so that we can go to court. Well, being said, I think the Church Street Marketplace took some actions and banned panhandling to the side streets, if I... But that is privately owned, isn't it? The Church Street Marketplace? I don't know about... No. It's managed, privately managed. It's managed, yeah, but so... So maybe you can do something, but... There may be some legal room, I don't know. But there were also, there was a community recently which tried to do something and it was declared unconstitutional, so... So it would be good to know before we go too far down this road and I think that will be helpful. Thank you. So we will do that. Thank you. Is that the only... That was the only item. That was possible. Let's see. Number 18. Do we want to hold off on considering applications to the board's committees and commissions? Bill Thomas back. Sure. I mean, I held off planning because I think that's really important and Megan wasn't here. Now, Tom isn't here. So can we... I feel badly because there are that few people, but we also need to have a process where everyone can be heard and those are important. So should we put that off to the 16th? Yep. Now Jessica is able to serve until a reappointment, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So everyone is... When it comes up later, affordable housing, appointment though still... Oh, we don't have to... Yeah. Okay. Sure, we could probably do that because that's not... There's no competition there. For affordable housing, there are three people for two spots. Oh, that's right. There are. And then there's a housing trust that needs another... You're free for two? Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. Very frank and Todd's are... Yes, and Frank Davis could. So we'll hold that off. We don't make any appointments tonight and we will make every effort to get the people here who need to be here on our next meeting at the new library space, I guess. Well, just for a while. We'll start the meeting there and then come back. Oh, okay. All right. All right. So item 19 is an executive session to discuss the negotiating or securing a real estate purchase or lease options. Do we... We need to do that. We need to do that. Okay. That's it. It's just what it says there. Oh, okay. Make a motion. I move that we go into executive session to discuss the negotiating or securing a real estate purchase or lease options. Second. Any discussion? All in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Are we carrying that? Can I just call back in? No, we'll take you with us. Yeah. Can we take her with us without getting disconnected? Hang on. I think so. I think we can take you with us. You have to remain very still while we carry you. Tim's going to carry you. I'll carry you. So we want to be... We'll be back in 20 minutes. The council is going to have a discussion about public projects in City Center. All right. Who can you stick around? Yes. Is there a ferry power in here too? We'll get your break. Your nine o'clock break. Oh, I see. Boy. That's why we call it this way. Pat, you're flying. Can you feel it? Oh. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. What does channel 17 do when we are no longer live? I don't know. Okay. All right. Thank you. I want to call back into session the South Burlington City Council on Monday, October 2nd. Just completing our executive session. We're now on item 20, which is consider and possibly make appointments to city boards, committees and commissions. And I believe we are putting off most of those appointments, but we have one that we can and will pending a motion, a point. We need to appoint Justin Ravidu as the alternate, second alternate for the CCRPC. So I will make that motion. I will move that we appoint Justin Ravidu as the second alternate for the CCRPC. Second. Okay. Is there any discussion on that? We need to do this. So if he represents us, he can actually vote for us. So hearing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you. And so that's all the appointments we're going to make. Then we move on to our final item, which is a council discussion regarding the priority ranking of prospective city center public facilities. And again, this is a discussion, not necessarily any voting or determinants, particularly with Tom, not here of our priorities, but just kind of discussing aloud what those might be. March is not that far off. And of course, in order to take a ballot item to the public in March, you need to make a decision toward the end of December or January as to what the ballot item is going to be. And you need a lot of information for your own decisions, but also for the public well prior to that. And so Helen and I discussed having this on the agenda as kind of an opener to the discussion around public facilities. You've already taken to the voters the TIF funding and approval for market street construction and also for city center park. City center park is actually under construction now. But discussion has been ongoing about a library, about a city hall, about recreation facilities and so on. And so staff would like to understand how we can help you, what information you need to have as you start to determine what you want to take to the voters potentially in March. So we don't want to make any assumptions that anything's going in March, but that's the next upcoming vote. There'll be three votes next year with the August primary and also the general election in November. But the year after that, again, we'll be back to having only one. So unless we have a special plan ahead. Unless we have a special. It's a good point. We can, as long as Donna's not listening to me right now, you can have a special election anytime you want. Pretty much. We had two special elections this year. That's true. That's why I'm glad Donna's not listening. Well, I think it's pretty safe bet that the library would be at the top of the list. But I think that what I would put forward to this council is given that we have between now and mid January until the ballot items have to be determined, it would be, I think, to the public's best interest and to our benefit as the deciding body to really let the public weigh in on what that list of priorities is. And we, of course, need information regarding what TIF funds would be available to us. And what the price tags would be. Right. What effects, if any, there would be on taxes. We have a request for qualifications that is out. And the qualifications have returned. I think Alana has them back. Be going through a selection process for, for who we want to present an RFP proposal from an RFP. And we would get the, these are for design, for design for the building. And we would hope that some preliminary design would be available for you and for the public by mid December. These are, again, as I've said in other media, these aren't blueprints. These are, these are just some elevations and possibly lay out. Would it be in our interest to dig out the old door elevator elevations and say these are some previous, you know, designs that were contemplated. They're definitely not designs that are, at this point in the mix, but, you know, they're some really well done. And there's, there are multiple perspectives and different types of designs there. So, some of them were, were concepts were, they were actually attaching or building on top of the existing community library in the high school. But some of them are freestanding new designs. So, if it's worth digging those out to say these are concepts that we had at one time. Because I'm sure they would, they might not apply. If, if something like this were to go into city center and you had the, the foreign based code requirement on four stories in that location next to the, the Cathedral Square building, then of course those designs might not fit that bill. But there are other possibilities, right? So. Well we also did have some conversations and public meetings around rec building and the city hall and the library. And we had all three and we had different renderings for those. We've consolidated some of that since then. I mean I think the public also needs to have another, we need to be really aware of sort of a reeducation of what TIF, how it actually works and where the funds come from, how this flows, how it works. I think people as you say really want to know, all right for the library we really need to have generated a certain amount of TIF development to support it. So those are sort of more, I mean it's hard to get concrete numbers when things aren't built. But I think that's, that's important to at least say this is what needs to be queued up or what potentially needs to be queued up to fund this so that the TIF program really works the way it's designed and we have the infrastructure investment with the TIF dollars and then the rest of the build out. That's true because some of the numbers that we looked at way back when certainly aren't in play anymore. One was we would look at a library that was going to be on a ground floor level of a building that was going to be built by a private developer and so on. And now we're looking at a completely different type of structure than we did then and the funding for it. And people need to know what the library trustees and their group of fundraisers will be expected to contribute along with taxpayer dollars along with the TIF dollars and where those come from. So I think, you know, being out there but we're all committed to the new library. I think that would go without saying I don't think there's one of us that wouldn't say that that was the first piece on our list that had built there. That's how I feel. I mean, we took the time to educate the voters and they responded positively to passing the TIF district first of all and then also passing the TIF bond projects of Market Street which is an infrastructure development that makes possible everything else that happens in that area plus the park which is an amenity but an important amenity that extends the public throughout that whole area. So if we've gone to that expense in terms of educating people, getting their feedback, what the next thing to do is to say we have the opportunity here to create a few more assets for the city at a discount because of the district. So the question is what is the priority, what do you think we should pursue first? And you've got library rec center, city hall, parking structure which is more of an infrastructure thing than an asset for the city in terms of like culture. So you have culture versus infrastructure and so that's one of the questions that people need to start asking themselves. And when we lay out what the cost will be and what the benefits will be, then they'll be able to make an informed decision. There are a lot of unknowns there here as well though. We don't know what the TIF income will be over the one, two, three or four years because we don't know exactly what's coming down but we are forging ahead, right, with the Market Street construction which is going to foster the ability to do all these other things. I think it's also important to remind the public the extent to which there have been workshops and all kinds of visioning concepts that have been vetted again and again by the public turning out at meetings, being on our task forces or on various committees. So they might not remember that there was a committee that recommended that library city hall rec center be three, you know, or together, right, built together, right? And so we as a council take that recommendation but we also have to look at the reality with regard to what funding is available with regard to what land is available and what could be developed on that land, right? All these pieces that we're trying to put together with their input but this is not, we're not reinventing the wheel here. This has been a really comprehensive process and, you know, people are busy and, you know, we have our fingers on this, you know, regularly whereas I think just a little kind of timeline, you know, showing how this has taken shape would be helpful. Maybe going back with those original, I mean, you could do a timeline of how the vision, the physical vision has changed over time with the library because, I mean, for a while it was, you know, long ago all those other designs from Whittier, right? Or Whittier, yeah. Or Whittier and then we did the visioning and it was, first it was separate and then it was, let's have them connected but they were like three separate structures that were connected and then through art conversations and the reality of the TIF money, we got to the point where we've been thinking, well maybe it could be, should be the two bottom layers or floors or the library and then public meeting rooms and city hall or whatever and maybe a fifth floor that you rent and make money or something and that's another testing. I mean, we need feedback from the public. This is why we are suggesting just two floors for the library because it's more cost effective and whatever and then we throw in the city hall and public space and is that still something you're interested in? I mean, you know, get another workshop or another testing of those principles so you generate some feedback. This is a state of our finances, right? Yes, and this is what's needed to do all those different things so that's why we have come a little closer to making it a more modified vision of the library and city hall or the rec department or whatever it is that we're talking about and see what kind of feedback we get and get their buy-in. Because I thought those public meetings were really helpful about the park and I mean it was very different called the different plans and it was fun. It was really interesting to see what the different visions could be. And now we're working with real data, we're working with real figures so now is where the rubber hits the road, right? Exactly, and that's where dreams have to be squished down a little bit, right? Because they turn into concrete and steel and they have a cost per foot like we said earlier, right? And when you're dreaming of having all these beautiful things you really can't have them all. So then it comes down to what is the core minimum of the things that you wish you could have that you'd be satisfied with if you got, right? That would fulfill or help fulfill the mission of your department that would move us into and throughout the 21st century, right? And that would enhance our assets, right? Exactly. As a community, right? And assets can be counted in lots of different ways. Our parks are assets, right? Our people are assets, right? Our air and sunlight and solar and all those things plus this stuff and yeah. Pat, do you have any comments? I was going to add parking has become an asset as well when we're looking at that. No, I just like the idea of having it open discussion so that, you know, all of our residents are well tuned into this so that we don't have anyone coming back and saying that we want as transparent as we possibly could be. I know that word gets overused, but I think in a case like this being as upfront and open and hearing what everyone has to say is critically important. Right. We have committees that we really need to have way in. I mean, the library committee certainly has and they can help make the case at those public meetings about the vision because they have got realistic with their expectations or requests. Right. And also to be prepared to answer if it is our intent that City Hall ultimately or at some point in time gets moved into this building on Market Street, what is our intent for City Hall? That building being attached to the fire department is not going to be every business person's dream of a building as nice as it is. So, you know, I kind of look at this and say, you know, I'd like to find out if the school has any interest in it at a future point. I know we've talked about that as a maybe. I mean, is it still something out there? And if not, what, Kevin, under your creativeness, would you see that being used? Yeah. We are having an appraisal done of the building path to kind of inform that discussion a little bit because it is going to come up. So we kind of need to know what the value of the building is in the marketplace. And I think that appraisal, we brought somebody on board to do that. But yeah, we'll need to get that information for the public as well. Okay. So to actually plan those, I mean, what do we do next? I mean, I think some of the, to really engage the public. We can't just have a public meeting like this hearing and they come up and they say, I want this. I want that. You know, well, I mean, they can do that. But we sort of have done that for quite a few years. So I think it needs to be more concrete options. Survey monkey. Well, I was thinking more pictorial things. I mean, this is a picture of what it could look like. Well, and how do you move it around? Or, you know, if you just say all I want is a library, what that could look like. And then some creative ideas about upper stories. That's what I mean. I mean, it sounds like we are, we're saying the library in our minds is a real go. And the highest priority. On a public charrette is what you want. Right? Yeah. That's what I was thinking or two. Yeah. So that's the decision. Then we can layer it with throwing city all. You know, but, and that's the kind of feedback we need. And if they say absolutely no city hall, you got a perfectly good one already. Then visuals are important. I think you tease out what else is in that building. And figures are important. Yeah. I mean, that's something I think we learned over the past year when we were looking at the tip vote was they want to see the fine details. They want to see, they want to understand. And of course they do. Right? So we can spell that out as clearly as possible. I think that would be to everyone's benefit as well. Well, we will come up with, we'll come up with some ideas around different options and projected costs. The visuals I think we're going to have unfortunately probably later, but maybe by the beginning of December. Have something. It's October now. So we don't, we don't have a whole lot of time and we need to be out in the public having these. What are we looking at for square footage of each floor? It's a 12,000 foot. It's a 12,000 square foot footprint pat on that site. There are four or five floors of that, but you got to figure only maybe 80% usable. So maybe, maybe 10,000, 9,000 square feet per floor, maybe 10,000. What do we have in City Hall now? We have 8,000 in City Hall, including, I think, including this conference room. So the library, current library is 12,000 square feet, but it's not, it's maybe 10,000 usable. And some of it's shared. Yeah, because there's the, there's the Career Center there, stairways, ramps, stuff like that. I think you're probably looking at 20,000 square feet on two floors of usable space. Good. I'm not an architect. All right. Okay. So we'll, we'll start putting some scenarios together for you and, and numbers such as we have them and, and options and create like an option sheet and, and have something for you. Certainly the first meeting in November. Maybe, maybe the next meeting actually. I know. I know. Because then, then we're in November. And then we need to be talking to people. Let's just not have it like the school choices where, where it came down and there were so many different renditions that it really got to the point of nobody wanted anything. Right. Yeah. That got a little too complicated, didn't it? All right. We got our marching. Yeah. I guess less is more. I guess is the. All right. Thank you. Okay. Well, seeing no other business, I'd entertain a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. All in favor. Aye. Aye. So we're next meeting. We're going to meet at least initially in the new space for the library. Yep. Cool. Okay. All right. I won't bring my books back there. Bring your books. All right. You all set. Thank you very much guys. All right. Night. Okay. So is that thing on your city guest white fine? We're seeing one.