 The final item of business is a member's business debate on motion 11352, in the name of Sue Weber, on charitable hospice care to meet future need. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put, and I would ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request to speak buttons, and I call on Sue Weber to open the debate around seven minutes please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. It really is a privilege to be able to bring this debate to Parliament this evening. Not that long ago, back in November, I hosted a roundtable on the dying and the margin study from Mary Curie and the University of Glasgow on behalf of my colleague Miles Briggs. It was heartening to see such strong cross-party support at that meeting, and I'm delighted to see such strong representation from across the chamber today as well. Ahead of this debate, I've been working with Hospice UK, Mary Curie, St Columbus Hospice Care to really understand more about the key issues hospices are facing in particular the problems surrounding funding, and I want to thank them all for their support in preparing for this debate today. So why are we here? First and foremost, the funding of hospice care is unsustainable. Hospices are facing an expected deficit of £16 million this year due to statutory funding not keeping pace with historic and recent spiralling costs, in particular the cost of matching the NHS pay awards to remain fair and competitive for their staff has been highlighted to me. With the demand for palliative care increasing and the health and care system under significant strain, the support that charitable hospices provide has never been more crucial and critical. Hospices provide vital support to GPs, district nurses, care homes, hospital teams and social care, through training and education, specialist clinical expertise and strategic leadership. Hospices bring over £60 million of charitable funding into the local health and care system each year, so let's not hide away from the fact that they lessen the demand on our statutory services by reducing emergency admissions, reducing the length of stay in hospital and supporting people to stay at home, therefore worth every penny as they provide significant value for money. The harsh fact is that the number of people needing palliative care in Scotland is predicted to rise by 20 per cent by 2040 and the care that they will need will be more complex, further adding to the pressure already on the already overstretched NHS. Charitable hospices are a key part of a cost-effective solution to those pressures, but they can only do this if that funding is sustainable and they are sustainable. Hospices are struggling to stand still, let alone invest in and be responsive to the future challenges that we are facing. Current funding arrangements do not support hospices to grow and innovate with their services. Here in Scotland there are 16 charitable hospices, 14 for adults and two for children and young people. St. Columbus Hospice Care and Mary Curie Hospice Edinburgh, along with Mary Curie's hospice care at home teams, provide hospice care across Lothian, and in November I had a very informed visit to the Mary Curie Hospice at Fairmalhead. I am actually ashamed to say in all the years that I have been in on this world and living in Edinburgh that is the first time I have been there. In 2022-23 around 8,815 people died in the Lothian region and 90 per cent of them had a pallid of care need. Across the region 4,060 visits were made to the 672 terminally ill people by the Mary Curie hospice care at home team. Mary Curie Hospice Edinburgh and Lothian service supported a total of 1,690 patients through their inpatient, outpatient and community and day therapy services. I really think that a lot of people have a preconceived idea of what a hospice is care and what a hospice is all about. They just see a building, they think that it was a building with rooms and beds and people being there to die. But this cannot be further from the truth. Most of Mary Curie's work is done in the community with the majority of hospice care delivered beyond the hospice buildings out in people's homes and in the community. They are giving people the option to die with their friends and family in their own homes supported by teams of experts. Mary Curie has a fast-track team that helps people with tasks such as washing, caring and showering as they get close to the end of their life and, crucially, keeps them out of those acute hospital settings. The team is essential to keep people in the right place and offers family support to relatives. I would also like to touch on the work of St Columbus Hospice care in Edinburgh. In March 2023, they began a trial of a groundbreaking new virtual ward service. The first hospice in Scotland to roll out a development of this kind as far as we have been made aware. This new service across Edinburgh and East Lothian provides patients and families with an alternative model of care and allows patients to be fully cared for in their own homes or in places of residence towards the end of life. The care and expertise provided by the team allows patients to remain at home with a very high level of support that would otherwise require inpatient hospice or hospital setting care. The cost to health and social care service of caring for people in the last year of their life is vast. Almost one in three people in Scottish hospitals are in their last year of life. 95 per cent of people in Scotland use the NHS unscheduled care services in the last year of life, representing a total cost of nearly £190 million. That is why hospices are so crucial. Hospice care providers made over 1,000 and 23,000 visits to people's homes to deliver vital care and support in 2022-23. As I stated earlier, hospices provide vital support to GPs, district nurses, care homes, hospital teams and social care through their training and education specialist clinical expertise and strategic leadership, and that they also bring over £60 million of charitable funding into the local health and care system each year. Earlier this week, the Minister for Public Health and Women's Health attended a round table on hospice funding. Rather disappointingly, I heard the minister open the meeting by saying that the hospice sector's call for remedial funding to address the £16 million deficit that the sector is facing over the next three to five years is unaffordable. The minister also said that that meeting was the start of the discussion and that today's discussion will feed into other meetings due to be held soon. However, there is no clear timeline for next steps. I hope that this debate today will go some way to shape the minister's thinking and get the minister up to speed with the invaluable role hospices have within our society as our population ages and the needs of people have as they approach the end of their lives become increasingly complex. In conclusion, I think that we can all agree that a new national funding framework for hospice care is vital to ensure the on-going sustainability of this sector and to allow charitable hospices to continue the sport the NHS and provide the high quality palliative care to people in the Lothian region and across Scotland. I now call Stuart McMillan to be followed by Miles Briggs. First of all, I would like to thank Sue Ever for bringing this important debate to the chamber. I wanted to speak today as our given hospice is based in my constituency and I'm sure that almost every family in Inverclyde has had some connection to the hospice either through a relative or a friend over the years. A local hospice is loved and respected by the community and it's a facility for everyone, no matter their financial situation. However, the last few years have brought many challenges to our given hospice, but also every hospice across the country. The pandemic affected their ability to fundraise, but the past year has been extra challenging due to the exorbitant energy increases and the impact that the NHS pay awards have had on their finances. I regularly highlight both the positives and also the challenges that my Gwydian and Inverclyde constituency faces. However, Inverclyde has faced economic and social challenges for many, many years, meaning that we have lost many of the larger businesses and a population has now shrunk to just over 77,000 people. As a result of the pool of organisations in people, the hospice can seek donations from has decreased. Therefore, our given hospice gets created with a range of fundraising events. The organisers of the year, like the 12 Days of Kiltmas, which the chief executive and myself are currently doing, so we're in the kilfer 12 day straight, starting on St Andrew's Day last week. Today is day 7, and there is a just given page if anyone is interested. They also organised the ever-popular Ergymwn Hospice Ball, they organised fire walks, sky dives and Christmas appeals, and local actor Martin Comson, who is one of their ambassadors, currently features in their campaign for funds to upgrade one of the rooms for family members to stay overnight. However, as you can see, their fundraising team is busy all year round, and those activities help the hospice to engage with the wider community. While that is positive, it is clear that the funding model for hospices needs to change. With each hospice across Scotland receiving a different percentage of public funds to help them to deliver services, there is no parity in the sector. Consequently, Scottish hospices have come together to work collectively on this, which I wholeheartedly welcome. I also know that the financial situation facing the Government is tough. Just this afternoon, we debated the fiscal framework, with a wide variety of political points being raised by all sides of the chamber. This debate does not need to follow in that vein, but the hospice's letter sent to the minister dated 20 November was clear and highlighted the situation that Scotland faces as well as it asks going forward. One of the most important questions for me is about the future, but I also believe that we need to have that wider discussion and find a solution to the longer-term funding situation for all of our hospices. That should hopefully provide a more stable operating position for hospices so that it can focus on what they need to do. However, the hearing needs to be addressed. I do not profess to have all of the answers, but I would suggest that consideration is given to looking at the overall health budget to see if there is any underspend that could be utilised. I know that this is tough. The recent letter by the Deputy First Minister to the Parliament's Finance and Public Administration Committee outlined the desperate financial situation that Scotland faces in the year and also for future years. The minister spoke about the closing comments in the previous debate. This is going to last for up to 10 years and potentially more. I attempted to find any resource to help what will be challenging to say the least, but I do urge the minister to look again at the budget. With Scotland's growing age of population, the demands for hospice services will only grow. Not every person at the end of life will want to go to a hospice, but the delivery of high-quality palliative care will only increase, including in the community. There are other excellent organisations and agencies who deliver those to us, but we have to face the fact that demand for hospice care will only increase in future years. That is why a fairer funding model to ensure the stability of our vital hospice sector is needed. I thank my friend and colleague Sue Webber for securing this important member's debate this evening. I would also like to put on record my thanks to organisations that have provided very helpful briefings ahead of today's debate, but I also thank them for the services that they provide across Scotland. Perhaps more importantly, the love and support that they give to families at the most difficult time anyone can ever imagine. From the age of seven, I have known and valued the contribution that hospices make to people when they need them and when their families need them. I say that because the final memories I have of my mum was seeing her in the hospice and leaving her to go in a charitable fund run, and I remember the kindness and care that the staff took not only to myself, but my family members following her death. Throughout the time that my mum and family needed hospices services, they were there for us. That is why I make no apology throughout the time that I have been lucky enough to serve in this Parliament to advocate for our hospices across Scotland, because we need to make sure that they succeed. We have already heard some very important speeches about why that is. Marie Curie's briefing for this debate I think really starkly outlined the fact that 60,000 people across Scotland will be needing hospice services in a community setting. That is something, a 20 per cent increase, is something that we need to start planning for and funding as a country. For taking intervention, I appreciate that there is no other Lanarkshire MSPs in the chamber tonight. I just wanted to ask if you would agree with me to promote the fantastic work of St Andrews Hospice based in Erdre and the fantastic work that they do for patients and fund raising all year round. Absolutely. I think that for all of us when we think about the hospices and all of us probably have been invited to visit our local hospices, you just see the amazing work they are doing at the most difficult time, but also the routes that they have in our communities as well. I very much welcomed the work in the last Parliament that was undertaken by the Government with Chaz and lobbied ministers to help to deliver that parity of funding for children's hospices. As a country, I think that we expected to see that. I very much welcomed the agreement that was signed, which provided approximately £30 million over the five-year period, which has now come to an end, to help to fund children's services for children with life-limiting conditions and the support services that their families needed as well. I am sorry to say that the reality did not match the delivery and, indeed, the agreement for 50 per cent of funding only amounted to about 30 per cent of statutory funding from the Scottish Government. Adult services in Scotland are in a more difficult position today with the average hospices receiving around 25 per cent of costs for statutory services. We need to see things change. I think that one of the issues that we have seen, and I know that this has been raised in previous debates, but the integration of health and social care and the creation of integrated joint boards has also seen a postcode lottery develop when it comes to funding our hospice sector, and that urgently needs to change as well. I very much welcome the constructive meetings that I have had with the Minister to date on those issues. I think that it is really important cross-party-wise that these are taking place, but we need to see, as has been raised by other members, some real action, firstly to put hospices on an even keel to address the deficits that they are facing, as has been raised by the NHS agenda for pay settlements, has placed an additional £16 million cost on the hospice sector, and that is something that they need urgent support to make sure that they can retain the staff. We do not want a staffing crisis to be the next part of the problems that they face. As Stuart McMillan outlined, an equal partnership going forward and a new funding framework is really critical. I think that that is something that all of us will agree tonight, but how Government can make that a reality is now important for a minimum of 50 per cent of costs to delivering core hospice services. It used to be a chief executives letter, I believe, but moving towards what that looks like in the future is something that the sector is crying out for. I hope that the minister can really take on board as the key ask from this debate. Moving towards making sure that we have a dynamic funding mechanism to support future needs, we know from all the briefings what that will look like, and our NHS will not be able to meet that demand. Our hospice sector has to be ready to do that. Finally, to conclude, the founding principles of our NHS was to build a health service from cradle to grave. Without a hospice sector, we will not have that. For people who are accessing palliative care and their families, that would be not only a tragedy, it would be completely unacceptable. We know that many hospices are already using their reserves to fund core services. That is not sustainable. I really do hope that the minister will take from today's debate the pressing need for a new deal for our hospice sector, the cross-party support that exists for that, and that we can work together to make sure that we can deliver for people when they really need it. Let me start by thanking Sue Webber for bringing this debate to the chamber. I want to put on record my thanks for hospices across adult and children's services for the vital palliative end-of-life care and bereavement support that they provided to over 20,000 Scots over the last year. Chaz, of course, has Robin House in Baloch in my constituency, truly a place of joy for the children and their families that use their services. I have constituents that have been cared for by St Margaret's Hospice in Clydebank, and I know of the fantastic work undertaken by Mary Curie and the Prince and Princess of Wales hospice in Glasgow. There will be many more besides. I debated whether to spend my four minutes waxing lyrical about the essential and excellent work that our hospices do across Scotland, but others have already done so. Elequence is out the window and straight talking is the order of the day. The minister should expect nothing less. Our hospices are struggling with rapidly rising costs. The round table held yesterday with the minister was an opportunity to address that, especially before the budget, but it was an opportunity that the minister failed to take. Where was the commitment to a minimum of three-year funding in the funding framework? Where was the national monitoring and oversight? Where was the provision to match NHS pay awards and the need to ensure pay parity? All of that is entirely missing from the framework. The minister has a leadership role to play, which I think she would acknowledge. Getting everyone together at the round table, partnership working and local collaboration is, of course, constructive, but, as Sue Webber said, opening the meeting by telling hospices that their call for remedial funding over the next three to five years to address the £16 million deficit that the sector is facing is unaffordable, frankly, is wholly unacceptable. The Government has reallocated money for their independence referendum, and I welcome that, but you have a constitutional futures division, which eats up £2 million a year in staffing. Over the next five years, that would be £10 million, more than halfway to what is needed by hospices, and surely a better use would be to give this money to them. The additional costs that I refer to arose in part because of the Scottish Government's actions giving a wage rise to nurses in the NHS. Nurses in the NHS deserve every single penny, but so do nurses working in hospices. If hospices cannot offer the same, then nurses will leave, unfortunately, for better pay. It is irresponsible for this Government to shrug their shoulders and say that there is nothing that they can do. Again, Minister, this is about leadership. We know that, for every pound of statutory funding invested into hospice care, there is a saving to the taxpayer of £6 for children and £4 for adult hospice care. However, that is only possible if hospices are sustainable and treated as equal partners with more than just a passing nod from the Government of the significant financial contribution and risk that they undertake. The Scottish Government cannot, with all due respect, afford to watch another area of the health and social care sector descend into crisis on its watch. It must be involved in workforce planning, action taken on remedial funding in the budget, and there needs to be a clear funding framework. Let me make a final point. I have been around so long, I remember things. In the 2016-21 strategic framework for action on palliative and end-of-life care, the then cabinet secretary, now the Deputy First Minister, said that the strategic framework outlines the areas where action needs to be taken to ensure that, by 2021, everyone who needs palliative care will have access to it. That strategic framework has come and gone. The palliative care strategy was promised in the programme for government in 2021 to be developed and published over one year. That has come and gone and it has not been delivered. Minister, where is the commitment to hospices and palliative care, because, to be frank, we have yet to see it? I thank Sue Webber for bringing this important debate to the chamber. I speak in this debate, having spent 14 years working as part of the nursing team at the Smargrup Scotland hospice in Clybank. I also make my contribution as a member of the CPG on palliative care, and I said that Scotland has so many excellent hospices that provide around-the-clock care. Marie Curie, the largest third sector provider of hospice care services in Scotland, supported almost 8,000 terminally ill folk in 2022-23. Over 30 years, families across Scotland, caring for a child with life-limiting conditions, have been able to turn to Scotland's only children's hospice service, CHAS. The Smargrup Scotland hospice, where I used to work, was founded in 1950 and was the first hospice in Scotland. Since then, they have provided medical support to patients who face complex care needs but also provide spiritual, psychological and social support for patients too. That comprehensive approach ensures that individuals receive the care that is right for them at their time of greatest need. Every year, they touch the lives of approximately 1,800 people and do so with compassion and dedication. My time in the Smargrup Scotland hospice team was incredibly rewarding and a real privilege, but it was also immensely challenging. Caring for patients with advanced life-limiting illnesses and complex care needs is not easy and it is an incredibly emotional job that requires resilience and empathy. The care that you provide extends well beyond just the patients themselves. You get to know and care for families and friends of the patients too. You act as a level support for them during what, for some, is the last few weeks or months that they will have with their family and friends. My sincere and eternal thanks go to St Margrup Scotland hospice team, led by Sister Rita as chief executive. They have touched the lives of so many, including myself, and continue to provide the exceptional care that we would all hope for, should we or a relative need it. I completely recognise that all our hospices are facing challenges with funding at this time, as the woodenations make up a large part of their funding and, due to the cost of living crises, I know that many are unable to donate, and that is a real challenge. I welcome that the Scottish Government is currently developing a new palliative and end-of-life care strategy. The strategy will, I hope, aim to ensure that everyone in Scotland receives well-coordinated, timely and high-quality palliative care based on their needs and preferences, including support for their families and carers. Alongside that, the wider commitment from the Scottish Government for the national care service will ensure a level of high-quality social care across Scotland. That will oversee the delivery of care, improve standards, ensure enhanced pay and conditions for workers and provide better support for unpaid carers. It is important that the legislation works in partnerships with providers of palliative and end-of-life care to ensure that the bill recognises and responds to the growing need for palliative care across our community. Hospice care in Scotland will continue to have involving needs, as I have already mentioned, and I am glad to see the Scottish Government recognise that. Hospices play a crucial role in Scotland's healthcare system. They do not just provide medical care, they are a source of compassion and support for patients in their final stages of life, and they offer stability and reassurance for their families and friends, too. Those are core values that underpin our hospices, and I cannot thank them enough. I am delighted to be able to speak today in this very important debate in the motion in the name of my colleague Sue Weber. Scotland's ageing population means that more people will need palliative care in the years to come, and it is therefore vital that we ensure the financial viability of hospices and the third sector delivery of that care. To put this into context it is estimated that by 2040, 60,000 people will die with a palliative care need, which represents a 20 per cent increase in demand. People dying with more than one terminal condition will have increased by over 80 per cent. Two thirds of all deaths in Scotland will be in a community setting such as people's own homes, care homes and in hospices. We know that people in the last year of their lives are significant users of unscheduled care with nearly 500,000 service contracts across Scotland, so services must be available 24-7. That is why hospices and third sector partners are so important. The reduced pressure on unscheduled care services, which cost the NHS, is staggering £190 million a year for those in the final year of their life. I note that financial constraints placed on charitable hospices to match NHS pay awards, making it impossible to operate for financial security, forcing the sector into a £16 million deficit for this current year. I note the need for a new national funding framework for hospice care to ensure the financial stability of the sector. However, I would like to focus my remarks on CHAS. I am privileged to have Rachel House and Cynross in my region and I know that everyone will be aware of the fantastic work that CHAS does to support families and patients. For over 30 years, CHAS has been Scotland's only children's hospice service, although it works diligently towards ensuring no-one should face the death of their child alone. It provides world-class emotional, practical and medical support from when the child's condition is diagnosed right the way through to bereavement or transition to adult services. I have visited Rachel House and the whole surroundings are perfectly arranged to make what is a very difficult time as comforting as possible. Just look at some of the testimonials to truly see how amazing this service is. As one parent said, the death of a child is indescribably devastating and we will always be grateful to the entire CHAS team. I cannot imagine getting through those days, weeks and months without their support. Unfortunately, the need for their service provided by CHAS has never been higher. According to the latest figures available, there are more than 40 per cent more children who may die young in Scotland and there is no evidence that that number is dropping. However, CHAS is facing undue pressures on a budget deficit this year of £2.3 million. That is largely due to the unavoidable cost burden of trying to match NHS pay awards in an organisation where staffing costs represent 75 per cent of their expenditure. Having to ensure that the charity remains competitive within this specialist care market leaves the charity little option to do all that can to match the comparative grade levels within the NHS. However, CHAS does not receive any additional statutory funding when NHS awards are made leaving them at a massive disadvantage. That is even more significant when you realise that 70 per cent of the charity's income is raised through the amazing generosity of the Scottish public. The stark reality is that the Scottish Government funding to CHAS is declining. In 2016, the then Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport committed to pay parity between public funding for children and adult hospitals at 50 per cent of agreed costs. Unfortunately, that was actually 30 per cent. As another parent asked of the Scottish Government, investment is needed. This service is a vital service for those who will lose a child due to chronic illness. Put the needs of our precious children as a priority. Please. I urge the Scottish Government to meet its programme for government commitment to sustainably fund ensuring that CHAS continues the excellent work that they provide for Scotland's terminally ill children and their families. I thank my colleague Sue Webber again for bringing this issue to the chamber. I now call Rhoda Grant to be followed by Bob Dorris. Ms Grant. Can I congratulate Sue Webber for securing this debate? Hospices are essential to end of life care. Unfortunately, they are not available everywhere. We first need to make sure that everyone has access to high-quality pallidive care, be it in a hospice, be it at home or be it in hospital or another setting. They need to have choice as to where that care can be accessed. It can depend on someone's life-limiting condition. They need information to make an informed decision and an understanding of what their needs may be and how their care can be delivered to enable them to have a good death and where that care needs to be delivered if it requires specialist care. Most people want to die at home, and that should always be the starting point. We have a right to a home birth, but we do not have the right to die at home. There seems to be a hierarchy of end-of-life care, where patients with cancer tend to get better quality of end-of-life care, as opposed to those with age-related illnesses, such as dementia and organ failure. It is hard to understand why, but it needs to change. We need to make sure that everybody has the same rights and abilities to end-of-life care. Others have said about hospices struggling financially. That is the case with many charities that depend on NHS funding. Highland Hospice, which is an amazing organisation in the Highlands, receives approximately 25 per cent of its funding through statutory funding, and the fund raises for the other 75 per cent of its costs. That, in comparison with Roxburgh House in Aberdeen, provides much of the same care. It receives 100 per cent of its funding because it is an NHS facility. I do not think that any hospice is looking for 100 per cent funding, but there needs to be a narrowing of the gap between NHS hospices and those independent hospices. Highland Hospice is really revolutionising how end-of-life care happens. It has an end-of-life care together project that it is running with NHS Highland, with million cancer support, connecting carers, maricuri, Highland senior citizens network and Scottish care. It is all those people working, organisations working together, that have enabled the development of the service. They have a 24-7 helpline for agencies and families who are looking after someone who requires end-of-life care. They are looking at a palliative care response service. That has been rolled out in Inverness, but hopefully it will be rolled out further. That is providing palliative care at home. It helps to cut costs to the NHS by preventing hospital emissions. It is very important to deliver the service that the final year of life is pre-planned, so that services can be put in place and ready for when they are required. It is important that the stops are pulled out to make sure that people have the death that they would wish, and that their families are witness to that, because that helps with the grieving process. I touch on wider funding, not just for hospices, but in my region there are many community groups that provide support to older people and people with life-limiting and chronic conditions. Many of those groups have not had an uplift for decades. They cannot continue to provide the services that they do, and they are going to fail because of underfunding. That means a loss of community care that is provided by the voluntary sector. It will mean more hospital emissions. It is a false economy because hospitals are not geared for that kind of care, and it costs more. It is not good for the patient and it is not good for the family, so we need to invest in end-of-life care in the same way as we do at the start of life, and then need to have equal importance. I want to thank Sue Weber for securing this evening's debate on the future need of charitable hospice care. It provides an opportunity to discuss some of the matters that have been part of my consideration for some time now, and my capacity is cross-party group community of the palliative care group within this Parliament. The palliative care is personal to us all, first and foremost. As an elect representative, I am fortunate to have a maricuri hospice in my constituency at Stalp Hill, and as a son, I was humble to have St Margaret's hospice in Clydebank looking after my father with great care, love and compassion in the last few weeks of his life. Hospices are not silos. They are a vital part of the fabric of our community, offering a range of wide supports and are actively involved in a broader range of palliative care support, not least of all with many hospices delivering a model of care often described as hospice at home. Such services will only grow in importance with the requirement for palliative care set increased by 20 per cent by 2040 and with an older and freer population more generally requiring increased care needs. Yet resources for the sector are badly stretched and we have heard about the funding gap of £16 million that has been identified. We have to be expanding the hospice movement, not seeing it contract. It is clear to me that there needs to be a new funding model developed to support hospices. We need to better understand our relationship with the NHS, with health and social care, be that helping to reduce the frequency and impact of unplanned admissions to hospital for those in the last year of life, or the relationship with delayed or unsafe discharge from the acute sector when those approaching end of life could otherwise be at home, or the relationship with hospices and public models of social care is delivered or procured through the network of Scotland's health and social care partnerships, such as the round table that was held just the other day. It is fair to say that there is a variety of funding models, various service level agreements across the country and a varied level of public funding being invested across 32 local authorities to support hospices or hospice at home services across the country. Variable models lead to variable outcomes, or various levels of service on offer across Scotland. Funding and provision of services are often inconsistent. Any national care service that we develop must help to secure appropriate, dignified, sufficient and equitable provision of pallid of care right across the country. I have met hospice UK, with Mary Curie and the Minister herself to discuss many of these issues. It is often said that death is the great leveller, but by that point it is too late. In public policy we must ensure that the end of life is that great leveller for us all. With two thirds of people's eternal illness relying on benefits, we can see that that is not necessarily always the case. It is not a level playing field. Perhaps by looking at NHS Agenda for Change Pay Settlements, such that we have heard earlier, there could be an expectation that hospities will be given funds to help match that pay award, rather than drawing or shrinking reserves. Challenging, I know, but we could move towards that. Perhaps the next NHS pay settlement, as a matter of course, could look at the financial impact on the hospice sector as a fundamental before agreeing any pay offer. I would like to see funds for hospices linked to Agenda for Change in the future. I do not think that we can move to 50 per cent agreed core cost funding, but that has to be a target that we have to get there. None of us are naive about the funding predicament of this Parliament, but we have to move in that direction. We do need longer service level agreements with health and social care partnerships and a clear line of accountability when health and social care partnerships say that they are delivering what they have been told to deliver as part of any national model. Hospices say that that is simply not happening, so that must change. Finally, on closing, there is huge cross-party support in this chamber for all of this. We all agree that there has to be a new national funding settlement. What none of us know is how that is going to be funded. We have said to Jackie Baillie and others that that is where we have to come together as a Parliament and not play party politics. That is far too important, Presiding Officer. Thank you, Mr Doris. Due to the number of members who wish to speak in this debate, I am minded to accept emotion without notice under rule 8.1 and 4.3 to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes. I now invite Sue Webber to move emotion without notice. I'll do it, George Adam. Moved, Presiding Officer. Excellently done, Ms Webber, if I may say so. The question is that the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes. Are we all agreed? That is agreed, and I now call Sharon Daryf. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank Sue Webber for bringing such an important debate to the chamber. Today I want to highlight the critical role that Ayrshire Hospice plays in my region and highlight how a charity like that can make a significant difference in providing compassionate care for those in need when they need it and relieve pressure on the NHS. I met Tracy Flynn, chief executive officer of Ayrshire Hospice, earlier this year. Tracy is passionate about Ayrshire Hospice and giving the best care to all those in the community. The Ayrshire Hospice goes beyond cancer care with a dedicated community team covering the entire region. Its availability 24-7 not only serves as a lifeline to families in moments of crisis but also prevents unnecessary strain on the NHS by reducing emergency admissions. In addition to their comprehensive cancer care, the hospice offers a range of services including respite and response, bereavement counselling, living well service and more. She emphasised the importance of effective collaboration between the hospice and community hospitals. It is clear to me and crucial to acknowledge how a well-functioning hospice like the Ayrshire Hospice has immeasurable cost savings for the NHS, but hospices are facing a challenging landscape. Only just over a third of hospices' income comes from statutory funding, with hospices having to fundraise the rest. Hospices, as it said earlier, are facing an expected deficit of £16 million this year, largely due to the cost of matching the NHS pay awards and to retain their key specialist staff. They need to match those pay rises. The Ayrshire Hospice is one of three Scottish hospices who are funded directly from their health board and not from the health and social care partnerships. They have received just under 50% of funding from NHS Ayrshire Narin, which falls short of covering pay awards. They must award those independently to retain and recruit clinical staff. Hospices seek a new framework for funding that will provide future guarantees and that the pay awards are passed in full and in a timely manner. That new framework could ensure that funding reaches hospices directly, preventing a widening gap between hospices and the NHS. They also wish to remain independent, but to innovate and support palliative and end-of-life care that is fit for the future, they require more sustainable funding. Tracy's dedication has fostered strong relations with NHS Ayrshire Narin and I am pleased to hear that the new hospice is well on track to be opened in autumn or winter 2024, but not all hospices are as fortunate. I previously raised those issues with the Minister for Public Health and Women's Health in the chamber and I would like to take this opportunity for thanking Jenny Minto for meeting with myself and Tracy Flynn in the Parliament. To conclude, we need to commit to supporting our hospices, guaranteeing that individuals in need can access high-quality care. Our hospices play a crucial part in the healthcare system as the demand for palliative care is increasing and it is predicted to increase by 20 per cent by 2040. With the NHS under significant strain, the importance of the support provided by charitable hospices has never been more important. I would like to thank whoever MSP for bringing this motion and this debate to the chamber. Everybody here for their thoughtful contributions. I have listened very carefully and with much interest to what everyone said. I think that everyone's comments illustrate the invaluable nature of hospice care and support that we have in Scotland. It is something that is close to my heart as well as members that I have spoken directly with understand. I have taken the last six months to try to visit and meet with as many hospices across Scotland. What has really struck me about all those visits and meetings is the breadth of care and support that hospices provide across our amazing country. As Sue Weber said, hospices are more than simply a building. I think that that is something that we all need to reflect on because I think that many people just assume that that is what they are. As Rhoda Grant highlighted, Highland Hospice has got an amazing partnership with a number of organisations in Highland and are doing similar work to the work that Sue Weber highlighted that is happening around the Edinburgh area. I would also like to thank Hospice UK and Marie Curie for their helpful briefings ahead of this debate. Most important of all, I would like to thank all those who work in hospices across Scotland for delivering such high-quality palliative care and end-of-life care services, often under very difficult circumstances. Sue Weber's motion makes clear how vital hospices are in delivering this high-quality palliative care and end-of-life care for people and their families. It also reflects the challenges that we face in developing our palliative care and end-of-life services to meet the needs of our ageing population. As others have said, Hospice UK estimates that the number of people needing palliative care in Scotland will increase by 20 per cent by 2040. That is why we need to create the right conditions nationally to help to ensure that our local palliative and end-of-life care services, including hospices, have the support that they require to meet that need. I would just like to continue if that is okay. I will maybe take one later. Scottish hospices are very well placed to help to address those challenges, given their expertise in providing vital support to people and their families, as well as supporting other health and social care services and teams delivering palliative care and end-of-life care. I thank the minister for taking that intervention. When you were out visiting the various hospices, I was at Marie Curie and Famelhead. They mentioned a pilot that has been recently in England, where their NHS 24 equivalent has a direct button to press for those families at home in those out-of-tower settings to access advice quickly, rather than waiting in those often lengthy queues with NHS 24 to then get a district nurse out. Have you considered some sort of innovative solutions like that to try and help those people? I thank Sue Weber for that intervention. I think that that has been what I have been trying to do, is going around and listening to hospices to hear what they have done. Sharon Dowey supported and discussed what is happening in Ayrshire, and there is lots of innovation around there. As I referenced earlier, Rhoda Grant talked about what Highland hospices are doing with their phone lines, and there is also St Margaret hospice in Marie McNair's constituency, who spoke to them about the ambulance service that they are doing. Yes, we are looking at all of that, and it is understanding the breadth of services that hospices are providing, so I have been trying to learn and listen about that. However, in planning for the future, we must be cognisant of the challenges of the present. I understand the financial pressures that hospices face, and I have shared with Scottish hospices the financial challenges that we, as a Government, face. As Rhoda Grant highlighted, there are differences across the sector, which is something that I am looking at. On 17 August, as many people have said in their speeches, I wrote to the Scottish Hospice Leadership Group and Hospice UK to inform them that, unfortunately, their request for £15.5 million was not affordable, given that the Scottish Government is facing the most difficult financial situations in devolution. My reason for sending that letter was to have that level of honesty with them, to be able to start the discussions, which I think was incredibly important. I think that it is also important to reflect that it is the responsibility of integration joint boards, including locally elected representatives, to make informed decisions on how best to resource services, including hospice services, to meet the needs of their local communities, given the budgets under their control. However, I have also been clear that we are keen to support the hospice centre where we can, and as many have referenced yesterday, I met representatives from Scottish Hospices and health and social care partnerships to discuss the challenges that hospices face in more detail. We shared a draft national framework to support a more consistent approach to local governance, commissioning and resourcing between integration joint boards and independent hospices. It was clear from the discussions that there were some very strong relationships between health and social care partnerships and independent hospices, but that we all need to do more to promote and support those relationships, and that includes local authorities, health boards, health and social care partnerships and Government. I think that both Bob Dorris and Sharon Dowey emphasise the importance of that collaboration. I welcomed the very open, frank and honest discussions that we had yesterday, and we agreed on the need for more clarity about roles and responsibilities nationally and locally in relation to strategic planning for palliative care and also more specifically commissioning hospices services. One of the health and social care partnerships yesterday said that they would be bringing this discussion to their meeting next week. I think that that is a positiveness. We have raised the issue, we have got health and social care partnerships to listen and hoping that it has raised up their agenda. We have also got a specialist palliative care meeting on 12 December and more meetings in the new year with health and social care partnerships. There was, I think, yesterday a welcome from the hospices and health and social care partnerships that we were able to have this open dialogue. I have asked my officials to reflect on those issues further, in particular through the development of the new framework guidance. We are also developing a new palliative care strategy, which prioritises work to address leadership responsibilities and accountability for all palliative care across a complex landscape of partnerships and relationships. I hope that that will be published in 2024. I agree with Rhoda Grant. Yes, I will. It is just to give—2024 is long. Can you give us an indication of when? Because they have already been waiting two years for this. I would love to give an indication more. I will go back to my officials and get the date, but I know it is next year, so we are working hard on that. It is something that I want to see driven through. Basically, because, as Rhoda Grant said, people need choice, and that needs to be the right choice for them. The overarching aim of the strategy is to ensure that everyone who needs it receives well-coordinated, timely and high-quality palliative care, care around death and bereavement support based on their needs and preferences. That support should be available to anyone who needs it, regardless of age, illness or socioeconomic background. I reflect on what Ross McCall was talking about with Chaz and the importance of the care that it provides. When I visited, there was a sibling who was there still getting support, and that is very important. As I said at the recent debate on dying in the margins, being diagnosed with a life-limiting illness is undoubtedly one of the most challenging things that a person can go through. No person or their family should have to worry about their finances at such a difficult time. That is why this Government ensures that adult disability benefit applications from people with a terminal illness are fast-tracked to provide them with the support that they are entitled to as quickly as possible. It is also important to reflect the importance of the dying in the margins and in the debate to ensure that we are talking about death to allow people to start planning. I thank all those working in hospices for the commitment and dedication that they show each day, often in extremely challenging and upsetting circumstances. I finish by offering my personal thanks for all that you do and also for the debate that I think is incredibly important.