 Playing with your food That's the mark of a maker The KitchenAid stand mixer and attachments Welcome everybody to the British Library Knowledge Center and this food season Event my name is Polly Russell and I'm the founder and the curator for the food season I work very closely with guest directors Angela Clutton and Melissa Thompson This is the fifth food season that we've run very generously sponsored by KitchenAid The last two years have been online, so it is absolutely fantastic to have you all here in person So that is really exciting Brilliant, but it is also lovely to welcome in our hybrid world those people who are joining us remotely So hello everyone who's being who we are being beamed out to as well The food season is all about food Which of course you will know is the very best subject in the entire world and in the food season We try and cover everything from food politics. We're doing food in prisons. We're doing lives in food So we have Hinsley Harrier, Angela Hartnett coming up and next week I just want to draw your attention to fabulous event a week today Which is with the two authors Sarah Wynman and Kate Young talking about food in fiction Kate did an event last year It was electrifying and wonderful So do look at the whole food season and think about coming to more Tonight though is a real treat like what an honor to have this panel together talking about food in jeopardy food in danger All through Dan's phenomenal book eating to extinction, which is absolutely wonderful. Yes Completely amazing So this event is really a treat because we have Dan here Jessica Harris who is in her own right an amazing legend a professor the author and editor of 18 books Including high on the hog, which many of you may have seen was serialized on Netflix She is a scholar and a historian of African food diasporas. Her work is political. It is urgent It is important. It is brilliant. She is the author of this book and what she did an event for us last week We sold out of all of her books except for three So there are three of these books downstairs, which you can get hold of if you are very lucky We have also got here tonight Joe Schneider Joe Schneider is American from New York by birth but has very much relocated here and is the master cheese maker of Stitchelton which anyone who knows is the superior in the style of stillton cheese. That's controversial But I think it is true We also have the wonderful Tom Oliver, but you can see he is not here with us in person He is being beamed in because he is testing positive for COVID However, fear not his Perry is here and you will be able to say taste it because he's sent it ahead So that is great news. So the way that this event is going to run Jessica is going to be chairing She's going to be talking to the panelists for about 45 minutes 50 minutes Then there will be plenty of time for audience questions. So please do think of questions that you would like to ask Then we will be going back out into the foyer And that will be an opportunity to taste Tom's wonderful Perry and Joe's fantastic stitchelton We also be an opportunity to try and snag those three books of these and also some of Dan's book and both I'm sure Dan and Jessica will be happy to do signings That is it from me over to you Jessica. Thank you. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you all for coming this evening I know that Dan has his Clack if I may in the audience, but I'm assuming that many of you may know Dan by voice, but not necessarily by face Because out of the 25 years that he's been at the BBC 15 of them he has spent on the food program Dan and I know each other for probably 10 of those 15 years He thinks we met in Atlanta Airport. I disagree I suspect he's wrong and that we either met at Oxford at one of the Oxford cultural collective events or in New Orleans I do know that we bonded in New Orleans and we bonded in the city that is one of my cities where The major conversation at lunch is what you're gonna have for dinner and where you're gonna have it we bonded on the bayou talking about food and having an incredible meal prepared by a matriarch of Cajun cooking With really shrimp boats outside on the bayou in front of her house where she was serving us this amazing lunch We bonded as he slid down a mile-high pile of raw sugar at a sugar plantation So we've had a few adventures together But what I want to do now is And I don't know that you know Dan a lot of this book is about the Slow-Food Ark of Taste and some of the items that have been saved if you will on it I was on the Slow-Food Ark of Taste committee in the US early on and in its inception or I didn't know that Didn't think you did and there was a lady on it named Poppy took her right you may know poppy But she coined a phrase eat it to save it And she said it's what her grandmother used to say you have to eat it to save it if you don't eat it If you don't use it if you don't appreciate it if you don't consume it It will go away So it's another end of the eating to extinction Most recently I saw Dan in Belfast and we literally both have flown back from Belfast this morning Which is why I'm a little loopy And we we were participants at a gastronomy Summit given by the University of Ulster in collaboration with a number of people including the Oxford Cultural Collective and There he did an amazing presentation on basically eating to extinction and There was a PowerPoint in it and I know he wasn't expected to do a PowerPoint here But I did ask him if he would share a little bit of it with us because I think it more than anything else can Calibrate our discussion and begin to get us talking about some of those things. So please Dan if you will grace Thanks, and Very pleased to do a PowerPoint because I think Some at one point I did imagine that there would be pictures in the book but the publisher was determined It was just going to be text And so this is my opportunity to illustrate the stories with some of the pictures So I know people who've Hopefully been reading the book have images in their minds of some of the stories and the characters But here you actually get to To see them so and thank you Jessica Again amazing experiences with you in New Orleans and also helping in one of the important chapters in the book and Also great to be here at the British Library as well because there are chapters that wouldn't exist in the book without the British Library, so where else can you find obscure books on 19th century Japanese? food culture Yeah, but the British Library, so I just want to just spend about 15 minutes explaining The you know the the genesis of the book really how it came to be What I thought it was going to be and then what it turned out to be And Jacket Jessica's mentioned already one of the important Features, which is the arc of taste So and also Jessica's mentioned that 15 years on the food program is it is at the the core of the book really because it that enabled me to Find stories and travel and meet people who populate the book but in 2007 when I joined the food program I When they asked me which which program which story would you like to start with and Because of my background and my my father's from Southwest Sissli I said well, you know the citrus harvest is on in Sissli right now. Please can I go and They kindly said yes There isn't a huge amount of travel. So I think I lucked out with my first request there, but it took me to To not where my my roots are my family's roots are which is in the Southwest but in the east and you can see etna there on the on your left and I'd arrived there to watch the harvest of the blood oranges in February and Think it's going to be a really celebratory program But I was there meeting farmers who telling me that it was their last harvest that they were going to leave their fruit on the trees The following year because the economics were no longer working out that this fruit that had shaped their identities that had Transformed the landscape of the island for a thousand years That had provided an important source of income and jobs was disappearing for small-scale farmers as as vast areas of Spain and North Africa were turning over to citrus and out competing them and I went to this meal You can see there with the farmers and the local Activists who are trying to work with the farmers to save the citrus and it was at this meal And there were five courses at this meal each one featured the blood orange as an ingredient And I sat next to somebody who had traveled down from the town of Bra in piedmont in the north of Italy and they explained that they thought that these oranges should be Included on to the arc of taste which I had no idea what that was. It's the Noah's arc of taste and It quite simply is an online catalogue in which people around the world are able to submit their Endangered foods in other words foods that they care about from where they live in the world Foods that are disappearing perhaps they were the foods that their ancestors had played some part in developing and creating and These this it could be seeds. It could be skills and knowledge and flavors And I realized it was this was a gateway to you know as a journalist a gateway to the treasure trove of stories five and a half thousand products that had been nominated from people around the world from 150 different countries and For I would admit for many years that was what the arc of taste Was for me It was a it was a place to go in which you could find the food that would take you to a part of the world and A people you know a community Some history, you know, why did that food exist in the first place? Who was Dependent on this food. How did it come to be? What was the story of human ingenuity about how did they figure out how to do that? Or why is it that it tastes that that why does it have that particular taste? So I am I spent years Recording these stories, but not really. I think joining the dots and it was when I started to write eating to extinction in 2017-2018 that I was forced to join the dots and come up with a narrative of What joined these thousands of stories together what had happened in the world to leave so many foods Plants animal breeds skills knowledge at risk of extinction It's a big complicated story It takes me more than 400 pages to to tell the story But I just want to use some of the specific stories in the book to to explain what I discovered that I feel that I wanted to try and get across to a My you know the readers of the book and to as many people as possible One issue that we are increasingly familiar with is is monocultures. So I was I met farmers from Uganda who were trying to save one of their 50 odd varieties of banana and again, they were telling me stories of certain types of bananas that were used as carbohydrate dishes Bananas that were used To brew beer that would be offered at weddings at marriage ceremonies So difficult to make that it was an illustration of the commitment a groom had towards his future bride and then I realized that actually 1500 different banana varieties that have been documented around the world and yet the world traded and grew in mono cultures just one One banana which today is the Cavendish before it had been the gross Michel and the reason why those names are important is because The gross Michel had been the globally traded banana But it became overwhelmed by a fungal disease and by the 1950s and had been replaced as As the globally traded banana by another a cap the Cavendish and because of the way bananas grow They're more like herbs than they're not trees They're like herbs and you can propagate them from the roots. So they are genetically pretty much uniform that the gross Michel had been overcome by this disease and now the Cavendish was becoming overwhelmed by this fungal disease that had originated in the center of origin the center of diversity of the banana so Thousands possibly millions of years ago wild bananas were had co-evolved with fungal diseases and in an evolutionary process were basically moving through time You know at some point the fungal disease would mutate and then the you know The the wild banana Genetics would then find a defense mechanism against that and that's how it plays out But with a monoculture we take the plant out of the evolutionary process and we leave it We we Yeah, cause it to become vulnerable and that's exactly what's happening right now. So already I'd realized that Some of these foods that people were trying to save weren't just quaint traditions They were resources that we would need for the future because the guy you see here who on Social media you can track down as banana man or super banana man He works in labs in the Netherlands At a university in which he's going back to the center of origin of the banana and finding the genetics that have been bred out of the Monoculture bananas, you know the Cavendish particularly to bring back the kinds of traits that it we will need that crop to have In the future because again, it's just become so vulnerable This idea of vulnerability and lack of diversity in the food system isn't new so a hundred years ago Nikolai Vavilov a Russian botanist Dedicated his life to traveling around the world saving seeds and bringing them back and Creating a seed bank in which they would be stored believing that what he was collecting from five continents was a resource that would prevent Humanity or people it all around the world Prevent them from starving to death because he he realized that future crops needed diversity in in the seeds He was collecting he believed he had the you know that the keys to the to the future of global food security Unfortunately Nikolai Vavilov fell out with a favor with Stalin in the 1930s and and died in a prison of the very thing he was trying to prevent which was starvation Meanwhile the people who had been inspired by him and followed him to work in his seed bank in St. Petersburg Many of them also died of starvation as the seeds were surrounded by the Nazis during the siege of Leningrad and although some of them were surrounded by ripe samples of rice that they could consume They believed this was a resource too important to eat and so they effectively sacrificed themselves Meanwhile later in the Well at the midpoint of the 20th century another scientist is also highly you know is really worried about future food security But has a different approach so whereas Vavilov was interested in diversity in saving seeds Norman Bullock was on a mission to try and create crops that could feed the world and One of the things that he stumbled on across were genetics from certain types of wheat That could create high yielding really productive strains of wheat That could benefit from some of the other technological breakthroughs in the 20th century like artificial fertilizer for example irrigation systems and so Bullock who was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1970 came up with a type of wheat that quickly Proved that it could produce huge amounts of calories More calories than any wheat that had come before and so successful that it spread around the world It starts off in Mexico and ends up in Bangladesh in India and then throughout Europe and so today a Wheat farmer in in Europe will be offered around 10 types of wheat to grow It's the so-called recommended lists that's shaped by millers and the food industry whereas in this Seed vault in the Arctic Circle as you can see there are more than 200 Thousand individual samples of wheat collected from around the world Showing how much diversity there is out there in terms of how they look how they taste how they grow The types of soils they can grow in the kinds the types of heat Conditions or drought that they might be able to tolerate and Choose any crop that that diversity exists because your ancestors and my ancestors saved these seeds where they were on the planet these seeds and these crops had adapted to the local conditions and so Scientists who believe like Vavilov did that we need them for the future have stored them away in this seed vault Funded mostly by the Norwegian government hugely inspired by the work of Vavilov and others who followed him but I wasn't just interested in the disappearing genetics and what that meant for the food system and I think we're becoming aware that the war in Ukraine is showing us how Lacking in resilience the food system has so a third of the world's globally traded wheat coming from the Black Sea region huge amounts of the world's Fertilizers that underpin the green revolution system that Norman Boulog was part of they come from Belarus and Russia And so we've created An effect, you know a really productive system, but one that's fragile extremely vulnerable But it wasn't just genetic resources as I said, I was also interested in our story the story of humans and skills and knowledge and our relationship with nature and how that had changed over time and I was drawing here on an experience I had in making a radio program with the Hadza hunter-gatherers who live around Lake Iasi in East Africa in Tanzania Around a thousand members of the tribe are left 200 of which practice no form of agriculture. They are thoroughly modern human beings who are opting to Continue a lifestyle that to date is the most successful lifestyle any human population Has come up with so, you know 12,000 years 10,000 years of agriculture 300,000 years homo homo sapiens perhaps two million years of our human ancestors living as hunter-gatherers and They live in the place where you find some of the Earlier, you know the oldest human footsteps Archaeologists have discovered and huge You know amazing archaeological finds as well that tell our story as homo sapiens Why should we be interested in the Hadza? They are modern human beings and are a proxy for Prehistoric humans. Well, there are Skills that they have that could be disappearing in our lifetimes. So The number one favorite food is honey High-energy carbohydrate, it's full of wriggling larvae crunchy bees and You know, so it's high-energy carbohydrate high protein as well It could be that honey is one of the foods the most important foods that made us human to find honey Is it's a huge effort by the Hadza and they could climb up Baobab tree after Baobab tree with no luck Over perhaps 700,000 years or a million years There has been a collaboration between humans and a particular bird The honey guide scientific name indicator indicator. So the the Hadza will Will do a particular whistle that the bird will recognize will swoop down will lead the Hadza to the tree where the honey is and The Hadza can then you smoke To get access to the honey throw that down to the fellow hunter-gatherers and the The honey guide will be left with some wax that that's the thing that it really wants But it's too dangerous for it to approach the bees nest 700,000 years of this collaboration that could be disappearing in our lifetimes Because when I was there, I mean I there were huts that had been created in which Sweet sugary drinks have been imported from other parts of the world and Their world was being encroached upon by all kinds of pressures It's our story and it is part of the big human story and I think we should reflect on that But more importantly, it also shows us because the scientists are increasingly Interested as you might be aware of the gut microbiome the fact that the more diverse our diets the more diverse The microbes in our guts the more beneficial that is for our health physical and mental and so huge diversity found in the Hadza's diet 800 potentially a menu of 800 different plant and animal species Meanwhile when archaeologists dig up both bodies that have been very well preserved and can look at the food and That's found inside the guts Again, huge diversity is part of you know our evolution and I don't know if Try and count up how many different plant and animal species You consume it will be nowhere near what the Hadza have or perhaps what Tolland man was eating in the fourth century BCE We all also aware because of the pandemic we've been through of the risks of Humans encroaching on the wild and the interaction between the wild and urban areas And we're still obviously trying to find some of the details in terms of what caused the outbreak But we know in other Cases earlier in this century Malaysia for example that they started to deforest They put pig farms into areas where it had been wild fruit bats came and Interacted with the pigs and it caused Nipah virus, which is far more deadly than COVID people died and Malaysia lost a pig industry a pork industry so this is a very you know, this is a very serious issue about the another form of Diversity being lost that wild diversity and there are things That we as humans have survived on That are disappearing close to extinction that we don't even understand how they work and how Cultures in different parts of the world Interacted with plants in such a way that we are still yet to fully understand one example is in Oaxaca close to where maize was domesticated around 7,000 years ago Scientists Botanists were going into at this remote village in the late 70s and stumbled across most strange plant. It was a 16 foot tall Type of maize that shouldn't have been growing there because the soil was so poor most more bizarre was that was dripping this mucus and Decades went by and they couldn't figure out what this plant was or what was happening So new techniques new analytical techniques about four years ago allowed some American scientists To analyze what was going on in this dripping mucus from these aerial roots That the this type of maize was growing turns out there is a microbial community Millions of different species interacting with the sugars being released by the plant taking nitrogen from the air and Fertilizing the plant is a self fertilizing type of grain cereal crop, which Again, that was mind-blowing for scientists working in that field again. We are losing plants and agricultural crops that We don't even understand how they work But also they have the potential This is a type of plant that there might be some application in the future in which we can reduce our dependence on artificial fertilizer if we can develop The science of understanding how this works further I mean and there are issues attached to that obviously because this is a plant that has been protected and Saved by an indigenous Population for thousands of years and now Western scientists have come into the community Mars Corporation is involved in some of the research as well extremely complicated. You know who who does this belong to? Meanwhile in Europe Likewise, there has been a revolution in the types of foods and businesses that have been based around What I would describe as endangered food so in the Swabian Dura in southern Germany again quite a Very tough place to farm but for thousands of years people settled there and survived because of the most humble of ingredients a particular type of lentil that was adapted to the soils and the conditions in southern Germany and In the 1960s as Germany was industrializing people were leaving the land diets were changing Canada had become the world's biggest producer of lentils They lost this food that had been part of their history not many people Cared at the time, but this guy did world mammal who is a farmer Who spent years trying to find the seeds to bring that crop back and he wrote to every single seed bank in the World and traveled to in search of This lost lentil that he believed was not just part of an agricultural system. It was in fact part of a way of life a Part of an agricultural system of rotation of crops that were fertilizing the soil and Feeding his community and he mourned the loss of this lentil to the point where he actually traveled to Russia to the seed bank that I mentioned earlier created by Vavilov and Here he is He found his lentil It had been Mislabeled, you know, and he'd gone through the records, but again the power the power of our relationship with food and the way it can Give identity in a sense of Cohesion in a community His story was so Inspirational that people in Sweden started to ask well What did we have in terms of beans and peas these most humble of ingredients and they look back through some of the earliest recorded Records of you know, what had been farmed over centuries and they brought back some of their beans and and then their story in turn Inspired three people in the east of England who were thinking about what the future of food in Britain should be And that then led to a company which you might be familiar with hodmadod's So again from this sway this obscure southern German lentil to what is now a thriving business That's reviving father beans that they realized in their research had been grown in Britain during the Iron Age and the whole I mean the big idea really in in eating to extinction is that we all had our Swabian lentil or we all had you know a food that was so well adapted to the environment in which we live in Orkney for example, it's a type of barley That whereas some crops can grow very well if you put enough fertilizer and chemicals Into the soil, but there's a type of barley called they call bear bear barley on Orkney that it's the harsh conditions it It's adapted to and it can grow and so where where all other food crops fail in a really really tough winter bear barley Can produce always produces and not only that you know it has an amazing Mineral content as well So there's a nutrient profile that people are looking into in terms of the as you can see here levels of copper magnesium and and zinc a Food that that disappeared in the past that could be part of their future And in fact the Scottish government is investing in bringing back these so-called land race crops There are natural resources that we've lost so when we think about the idea of Victorian London and the world of Dickens in which the oyster was the McDonald's of its day but pollution and over consumption and Yeah, the way in which that that ecosystem was exploited led to the extinction of In many parts of our coastline of the of the native flat Oyster that's disappeared pretty much from our waters It still exists in pockets of Europe including the west coast of Denmark and they've turned this into a resource in which they are Telling people the story and people are going on oyster safaris to actually learn about this almost near extinct In other parts of Europe this resource that was so abundant just a hundred years ago But just to finish off I also in the book wanted to get to the places That were the provided the origin story of our food. So I mentioned Maze in southern Mexico. I traveled to China you know took in search of the place where hunter-gatherers domesticated wild grasses that gave us rice and likewise I went into the Eastern Turkey to look at where hunter-gatherers 12,000 years ago became the very first farmers and they took these wild grasses and gave us wheat and barley and When they did that they created two main species of wheat one was iron corn One was called Emma and Emma's interesting because it's the wheat that for thousands of years fed most human civilization So it's Emma is the wheat that the people who built the pyramids were farming and in eating Likewise the people who erected Stonehenge were Emma farmers, but Emma starts to fall out of favor as bread wheats Take root and a spread around the world and particularly after the Green Revolution and ball logs high yielding wheat They completely disappear in most parts of the world However in this village that I visited in Turkey there were farmers who and who were growing and Miller still milling this ancient type of wheat and Why does it matter that they save this wheat well for them? It's an emotional connection. They have they love the look of the wheat as it's growing in the field They love the smell of the wheat as it's being cooked into what you have here is a pilaf dish with some Goose and to them. It's like medicine. It actually this is a we don't really associate wheat with flavor It's um, but for them it has a very very powerful Yeah economic agricultural cultural and a nutritional You know benefit to them But very few of them are growing it. Luckily. There are chefs in the in Istanbul for example who are supporting them and Helping them bring back these ancient resources and when when you look think about that in the context of Climate change and some of the commitments that have been that were made at COP 26 and also the issues we now have where we're scratching our heads thinking where where what is going to be our energy strategy and All the gas that's then used to make artificial fertilizers It could be that some of the stories some of the foods from the past could be clues as to where we need to go next For the future so for thousands of years humans did produce food in greater harmony with nature and it could be with the use of Modern science and technology that we can we can start to unpick and understand some of these indigenous complex food systems and make use of them And so I think this is why I wanted to write the book and this is why I think people like Jessica Harris and and and others Are important because they they tell stories that engage people and make them realize what we have lost and What we need to save? I'm not arguing that these are foods that will feed the world But I'm arguing that a better food system is one in which these foods are no longer Endangered and at risk of extinction Thank you, Dan Now I had a question, but I think I'm going to skip it. I'm going to go straight into these two gentlemen who are Sitting here probably a bit nervous if they're like me Getting ready to go on and I want to start with you Tom But before I go on I just want to read this because I think this is lovely lighter than wine more elegant than cider a Good Perry might be honey-colored with the lush Musky fragrance of a damp Ophthalmol forest or an old-fashioned sweet shop a Sip will fill your mouth with the bittersweet taste of ripening orchard fruit tinged with the acid of lemon drops the bone dry tannins of tea leaves and the sugar of candy floss Perry captured the essence of a place I think that's a beautiful way to get into our discussion of Perry and how how Perry is being brought back by Tom Oliver who was the tour manager for I've got it written down Proclaimers, which is another way of saying he knows how to wrangle cats There it is so he is in the book Jessica and and and so is Because they are the people who are out there saving these Foods I was only able to include these stories in the book because there was somebody out there to welcome me in Welcome me into their world and say they were saving these foods So again, we have two food heroes here with us. Absolutely, and then the question would be What made you select these two from your only six from the UK? but equally Why are they so important and we clearly agree they are Well, if we could start with Tom because Tom represents to me at least and and again that wonderful description heavily influenced by the the way he talks about Perry insider, but for me Tom's work in saving Perry is actually It's saving a drink, but it's actually saving a landscape. It's a story of trees really that some of the thing some of the some of the Trees that filled our landscape for centuries were lost Tom is somebody who believes they shouldn't disappear So and and maybe Tom tell us about the the copy is an example of that Indeed these These trees in the in their own right are magnificent. They look fantastic in the landscape Particularly right now this time of year the blossom on these trees is a beautiful white canopy These trees are quite tall. They can be they can be as big as Oaks and They look very very impressive when you see them. So they have an absolute beauty to which really is to be to be relished The the copy is just one example of a number of varieties that Were in existence at the end of the 1800s and grown To be used for making Perry, but very quickly. I think Usually because land tends to get given over to corn. It's more profitable these Perry Petrie's got grubbed out through the 1900s and so it came to be that we realized a few years ago that Only this one tree left which I was lucky enough to find in an orchard We believe there might be others, but they just haven't been found yet so You know this this is this is the situation we're at with Something as simple as the humble Petrie Perry Petrie. I would be curious How do you find trees? What what's the search process? I? Think it depends on how Quick you are to realize what it is. You're you're actually picking so This particular variety copy. I had been picking this tree for nine on ten years before it dawned on me that that this variety was showing that It a sort of typicality that the real problem you have with a lot of fruits is that they can They cannot always show that their true size shape color on it on a year-by-year basis with Especially if they're a little bit more challenged if the growing conditions are perfect if the trees Feeling is under some challenging conditions So the fruit doesn't always resemble the classic typical look of the fruit So it took me a long time to realize exactly what this fruit was, but it is really through getting out and about Finding these trees whether they're in old orchards whether in hedgerows whether they're on wildland or whatever and and picking them and Working through the process of identifying them Again a question from an American. I'm sorry. I'm just ignorant As you do that, um, you say hedgegroves you say orchards Is there any kind of ownership issue if it's in a hedgegrove? Who owns the pairs? How do you get the pairs? well There is if obviously if if they're within an enclosed area that is an obvious orchard, etc Then yes that land will be owned Almost definitely by somebody but The part of the great hunt for these varieties is that establishment of a rapport With with either the landowner Or the local authority or whatever who owns it Because a lot of the time a conversation has to be had with them for them to understand Just exactly what it is they have growing on their land and a lot of times people aren't aware of it So there is a there's a lot that could be done there Oh my dear Perry. What made you get into that? It is as Dan was explaining in his book. It is truly a glorious drink. It is significantly different from other Drinks that are made on farms. Um, you could say that far that siders of an agricultural drinkers And it has just a lovely finesse and some lovely qualities that really Set it out has been really something special Um It has been over the centuries and the polin bonaparte indeed our greatest one of our greatest foes been an englishman described it as The english champagne it it it can have some wonderful qualities Thank you. Now we're going to taste some a little bit later Can you tell us what to look for in the one that we're going to be tasting? Yeah, so this particular key Perry. It's a naturally sweet Perry Um, not all the sugars have been converted to alcohol. So it's a very it's a lower alcohol Uh, beautifully sweet Perry with some lovely complexity. There's always a lot of Citrus elements in in pairs Citric acid is the main acid in these Perry pairs But you've also got tannins which bring a textural thing So you have The tannins giving you a lovely body and mouth feel which allows this lovely sweetness To sit on top of this lovely citrus acidity And so you'll get a very confectionery fruitiness You'll get in the sort of bottom of it. I always like to think of it as maybe hints of rhubarb Maybe hints of a touch of ginger Maybe a bit of gooseberry and then in the middle of the taste you get lots of melon Maybe a touch of guava And then at the higher end you you swing towards the more hedgerow fruit of like elderflower And it's all very honeyed as well. So it's just it's a delightful drink My dad's something as well Jessica So the music the music background I think is really relevant and I mentioned with some of the stories it's as it is about genetic resources and the loss of the The copy and the what tom has done to bring back some of these varieties But it is also about skill and and knowledge and I think you can visit tom and buy cider and peri direct from tom There's a room at the back where there are There's rooms of barrels and and tom's great skill is in blending some of these barrels. So Tom would you just Do me the favor of just explaining that there might be a connection between your music background and the and the barrels Indeed dad so So the thing is that I think when you're mixing sound it's about balance and it's and it's about Harmony and you want everything in its place layered Appropriately so that the the music that's being performed makes complete sense to the listener And for me working with with peri and working with cider too It is about the mix. It's about the blending and the layering So that when someone Takes a drink it looks right. It smells right and it tastes right And in terms of the taste that means I like to see things as having a shape. I think they they just have I like to think a warm Just round comfortable shape where you have It has a base. It has a middle and it has a top and it just has a lovely finish to it So it stays in the mouth and gives you a lovely drinking experience and so blending sound Blending drinks that they call on the same way that you should see Both of them they have layers and they have complexity But ultimately they have to be incredibly listenable and incredibly drinkable. Otherwise nobody's going to want to know Thank you so much and we will be raising a toast to you and your speedy recovery Later this evening. Thank you. Thank you And our next gentleman who is a compatriot Joe Schneider Who brought back a British classic So will you tell us a little bit about that? Sure so We make a raw milk stilton and i'm not even allowed to say that that's illegal So the the pot history of this cheese is ostensibly the king of english cheese Stilton has a very long hundreds of years of tradition of being made in uh in england In three counties not in i'm sure less to sure in darbyshire There's a a town of the name of stilton But that is actually in Cambridge sure, but it lent its fame to the cheese because that's where all the cheese would congregate On the northern road to london and then that's where the trade would occur So they would bring stilton to stilton and I think that's why it lent its name, but stilton was With some minor caveats stilton was not really produced in stilton so, uh When I arrived on the scene and I moved and I moved to britain in 98 Making cheese on small farms with raw milk And I was working with a company called neils yard dairy who have been champions of british farmhouse cheese british and irish farmhouse cheese for now nine 40 years 35 40 years And so I had a relationship with them I was selling them cheese under different guys and then one day the owner randolph hodgson a very inspirational person in the world of um the renaissance of british farmhouse raw milk cheese Took me for a pint In a pub in burrow market said I've got an idea I want to bring back raw milk stilton. Are you interested and I laughed and ordered another pint and I thought that's funny We chatted about it, but It um became apparent to me over the ensuing weeks that randolph was like johnny apple seed He just plants a seed walks away and then that idea against your will starts growing and it grew on me And I thought really could we do that? And I was somewhat attracted by the idea that an american might be able to resurrect this extinct cheese So we started about 16 years ago Always in my head. I think it's a new project, but 16 years is a long time We found a farm in the right area to work with and we have been endeavoring To resurrect Stilton in its traditional form. So it has not been made Stilton has not been made on a farm Since the 1930s that has not been made with raw milk since the 1980s the very last company making it colestin bassett stopped in 1989 and raw milk stilton which is Uh, what I consider proper cheese and I can expand on that later, but uh, It became extinct and that was morally repugnant to people that care about not only cheese, but food culture and heritage And why was it illegal though? I think that's an important point Why is it saying that term that you used? Why is that? Well, you just you should probably ask your appropriation question because that Nicely I understand because it's it's the raw milk And the the law's involving it now Yes, so uh Moving forward about appropriation about appropriation I have a very long history of cultural appropriation Uh, I started my cheese making journey as an american living in holland making greek cheese for a turk So I don't have any qualms about cultural appropriation um The problem with uh stilton is that it has been improperly appropriated And I am trying to reappropriate it so I can't judge the crowd, but we're all here in the uk So many of you will be british citizens. I myself am a british citizen now I'm dual citizenship And I like that word citizenship is very interesting. I am not an englishman, but I'm a british citizen and I became one because I was committed to living here and working here and Embracing the values of what it means to be british And I took an oath and I raised my family here and so I have a stake in that cultural heritage And what I saw was that the tradition of raw milk farmhouse stilton was appropriated by five companies And if you consider yourself british you should be ashamed or maybe horrified that somebody took Your cultural heritage away from you. You no longer have the choice. It has been removed to eat Stilton made the way it was 200 years ago i.e. on a farm, which is germane because it's the farmers milk So they have control over that all the stilton that you buy in the supermarket is blended from farms all over those counties It's pasteurized homogenized. It's mucked about with I don't you know, maybe it's good industrial cheese, but it is not proper farmhouse cheese and it the cultural heritage Of hundreds of years of stilton making in this country, so It's upsetting to me that more people don't get more incensed by that loss But that's what we were trying to do is grapple with legislative aberration which says Um these five companies have taken your history and your heritage and said oh That looks profitable. We'll have that and we will now define what stilton is And they picked the nice bits like oh, it's blue um, and i'm not being facetious You could make stilton with a pineapple in the middle of it and still call it stilton But you cannot make stilton on a farm with your own raw milk So in the late or mid 90s the I'm gonna use this word because I love it a cartel of stilton companies Took control of stilton and they wrote a pedio A pedio is a legislative instrument protection designation of origin it's A european one as you know because we oh, oh, that's right. Oh, we're not Sorry, it's good. Anyway Let's pat let's skip over that Moving right away. It's like an I would say It's see it was a european mechanism to recognize and identify regional traditional foods that needed some degree of protection Simply put they didn't want people in california making Parmesan or red gano or champagne or britamo So it's a it's a legislative framework that says What these people have been doing and making and growing in this area is really important culturally and economically important to that area We're going to protect that name. So you can't use it unless you are in the right area and making it to the right recipe And so what the stilton makers did in the 1990s was write that legislative framework, but they snuck in A rule that it had to be made with pastries milk So literally created a barrier for any small-scale farmhouse producers that wanted to make stilton With raw milk the way it had been for the first 200 years of its history So that's where I took issue So we that's why we can't call it stilton because we would literally be breaking the law I'd be breaking trademark law and the The pgi laws of europe And they would sue me they've indicated that they would sue me if I do that so I have to sell close to the wind there, but We are endeavoring to make a raw milk stilton Despite the fact that right now legally you're not allowed to do that Okay Was that a little bit ambivalent? No Not in the least Probably a little pointed but Fascinating and I mean I think the thing is so um well two things I asked tom what to look for in the taste What should we look for in our tasting of this? Not stilton Yeah, it resonates very much with what tom was describing that's how I can't be as florid is as he Was but I liked his idea of shape And we often we often use the analogy of it's like listening to listening to so a pasteurized cheese It has some attributes and it might be like a quartet, but a raw milk cheese is like listening to a symphony So everything is plain as it should there are layers of sound And it's the same with the flavor of a good raw milk cheese It sort of builds up around you one of my favorite experiences is Tasting at a market and you give somebody a piece of cheese and you know, it's like goldfish syndrome people see free food and they come in And hover and then they wander off But my favorite is when somebody just grabs a free piece of cheese and he walks off and then they stop like 20 feet away And turn around and come back and this has happened to us a lot So what is that? I love that because it took them 20 feet for that flavor To open up for the base layers the creaminess the pecansi he's waiting for the bitter doesn't come What is that flavor? Why is that still in my mouth? I'm gonna turn around and find out what's happening to me I love that. That's how you get them, huh? Yes, because it has a complexity of flavor and a length and different layers And if they're all in harmony, you know, you have the sweet creaminess of the milk Put the acidity and the sharpness of the blue which shouldn't overpower it And they should all marry in your mouth and then stay there Whereas um A pasteurized cheese if you try it at home next I'm sure you have some in your fridge. Just eat it The flavor is there and it might be big and punchy like an American cheese. We don't say it's strong. You say it's sharp Sharp cheddar. It's just acid. That's all you get is that one dimensional flavor But it confuses you it's like sweet or msg. It's just wow something might taste buds have been activated That's acid that must be delicious. But then the flavor just drops off Whereas raw milk cheese offers that sort of length flavor that stays with you for minutes after you eat it Wonderful. So we will look for that as we go forth tonight Look forward to the combining of the two as well is going to be very interesting So we'll have to have some orchestration and some discussion about that as well Um, I think it may be time to throw some questions To the audience or to ask for questions from the audience Anyone Yes, there are microphones that will appear miraculously Hi, um fascinating lovely to hear you all talking Um, I wanted to ask you Dan your brilliant book It which is very sobering But do you see any glimpses of hope, you know given that we now know so much about genes and you know this message Which seems so clear that it's really important to save biodiversity. Are you seeing things happen? Are people understanding how important this is? Yeah, definitely. I think um Even the fact that we use that word biodiversity, which I don't think people were using or certainly mainstream conversations didn't really feature Biodiversity and I think we're waking up to The fact that that it it's The loss of biodiversity and in the case of eating to extinction Agro biodiversity is really important and it is being reflected In significant work that's happening around the world. So In the book and also I've made radio programs about this the work at queue for example in the way that they're researching the future of coffee And you know that they have found in the same way that tom was describing finding these lost Periper trees you know some of these endangered um species of coffee That we will need for the future because climatic conditions mean that arabica and robusta Are going to be increasingly vulnerable in the future So the fact that erin davis one of the great coffee experts of the world Helped to track down in sierra leone a couple of pairs of stena filler Some stena filler plants that were thought to have been extinct in the 1950s It could be that they will contribute to the future of coffee and that is lots of reduces being invested by I mean It's interesting that the uk government for many years has helped make that possible queue itself globally respected Organization and I think If you take a close look what's happening around the world Scientists are increasingly turning Vavilov's concerns into actually practical work. So wheat is being revisited and a lot of the wild Ancestors of wheat from the fertile crescent are now being used in breeding programs Um, but obviously that's just the genetic story. I think obviously we need to The bigger challenge is is the food system that means that we Have access to and that we are informed to make better decisions about you know, what we are Buying and eating and the fact that billions and billions of Pounds of subsidies that underpin the current system can be used in in more Beneficial ways for us and for the for the planet and I think the green revolution Is an example in the 20th century of how the food system was Fundamentally changed and if we can do it then we can do it again Yes, um something for dan um go back to wahaka and the corn Many varieties of corn that have been grown in mexico and the arrival of the gem foods That kind of knocked out so many of the indigenous ones the mexican government as i'm sure you've just seen Has just outlawed gem foods Do you think we're actually going to be changing back to looking more seriously at what we've lost? Do you think that's a good sign? I um And I think that that will help I think the Challenges a huge amounts of diversity still exists in mexico and there are still farmers who are who are saving maize diversity and and also some of the um You know the crop trust for example is doing a huge amounts of work to try and document and save this maize diversity, but Again, it's the it's the system Of of the um, you know post green revolution economics and science and technology so for example um At the beginning of the 20th century is when f1 hybrids were first developed and they were quickly applied to maize So again as as with ball log and wheat they they created this really high yielding productive maize so productive that we ended up with the you know the corn belt in the states And then we ended up with the trade mechanism of nafta, which meant that this is such a I mean it's so important to reflect on this that the country that where maize was domesticated started to receive this influx of High yielding corn belt You know maize from the states again because of subsidies and it did overwhelm A lot of indigenous farmers, but and it wasn't it wasn't maize. They could even eat It was it was turned into you know, it's the high fructose corn syrup and it's turned into You know sweet sugary drinks that then you turned mexico into one of the most obese populations in the world So unless you fix the economics and support those farmers who are Saving that diversity then um, you know It's hard to see You know how um, we can avoid a lot more diversity being lost, but You know there are chefs high-profile chefs in mexico who are working directly with farmers and giving them You know high returns on what they grow, but that's just the chef and you know a small community of farmers again It's I think it's going back to these big structural issues of subsidies and government policy and the fact that We are waking up to the idea that we need a post You know fossil fuel based farming system. So change has to happen Uh, and we we have the science and the understanding of why diversity matters. It's just the we need the political will Yeah All right, so you earlier you talked about um, um, you got to eat it to save it So as end consumers, we're given the kind of products by supermarkets, right? So there's a bit of a cycle we can only eat what they provide to to an extent Are there anything that the whole panel would recommend to the end consumer who you know access would be a limiting factor could recommend for you know Living that principle of eating you know eating to save it basically because you know I got a little on every week and I buy my shopping and will we buy our odd box or whatever and we do our best But that's still only what they can provide because that's what they are giving us no matter what we do other things that you know recommend provide can suggest that People others can kind of kind of do You want to or Tom? Thank you. Thank you um Tom I I have to be honest, um It's unlikely that you'll come across. Um, uh, a very good Perry In any of the larger Super supermarket outlets. Um, it's a function of Very very little being made And what is made? really Can't sustain itself unless it's at a pretty decent price um so, uh any if I if I'm I'll be as careful as as joe was I think If there's any Perry that is available in the larger Supermarkets, it probably Isn't made from Perry pairs and it really is the Perry pair that I'm interested in finding saving and Propagating the question becomes How you shop Where you shop What you put your money for and then there's the other side of that What can you afford to buy? And you have to get all of those sort of working in some kind of symbiotic harmony because you may be Well meaning well intentioned But if the only thing you've got is You know the supermarket on the corner. Let's leave it nameless um That's what you've got And there are certain kinds of social realities that become a part of this as well And so one of the questions I was going to ask is the question of how elitist is this You know, how do we get this to come to Everybody and I don't know the answer But I'll throw it to you. Maybe you do Um, yes I I don't I don't know the answer All I know is that as as an individual producer I do think you have a responsibility to to make what you produce Accessible to as many people as possible and of course it would come back to the old traditional way of Sales from a farm farm gate sales So that somebody can come to our shop on the farm during its opening hours and We can sell them Perry We can sell them Perry that will Into a container that they can bring So that does away with any packaging and it's it's the cheapest way of of buying it So that makes it as accessible as it's going to get but of course that involves a motor car and getting to the farm and It's it's it's going to be a struggle Yeah, can I just What frustrated me about so much of this over over the years of making programs and thinking about this as I wanted So the book is based around some specific stories And I think that that's really what we need to illustrate what is possible. And I think if I just can give you some examples so there was a rice farmer in Szechuan province who was the last farmer for miles and miles around to be saving some Some of his traditional rice is the government the government sanctioned types of rice and I was thinking where How is he how is he Surviving on this rice and there's I can't see where the market is And then this was a guy in his 60s and then he's got out his phone and on this we chat app show me that how he was selling his rice to people in Beijing and in Chengdu and then I think Um at the city level that's really important because I I mentioned this example of the way in which Copenhagen have inserted diversity in some of the public procurement contracts so that the contracts that end up delivering food into schools actually have diversity Um added to them So it's not just how cheap the apples are or how many apples you can supply but how many varieties Can you supply because they see that as having value and as as we are increasingly aware Cheap food isn't really cheap You know in terms of true cost accounting of its impact on the planet and on our health as well And then just that point about people, you know Who might be marginalized and this some of this food you might argue is completely out of reach well Scotland the bread is an initiative in which they are growing traditional land race wheats in scotland They they've got their own small mill and then that flour is going out to community bakeries and reaching people who would be just getting Sliced white loaves from food banks, but they are actually getting that food Into communities that really need it. So I think with imagination vision and actually technology That this this can slowly happen While we wait for the big political decisions and the inevitable changes Are diminishing resources Oh, yes Hi, this is a question for dan Thinking about the book that you had written and all these places that you had visited and looking at the traditional ways of farming and do you think there's a direct link in keeping those traditions and preserving these seeds and all the foods that have gone into extinction Uh, and in that sense Do you think that diversity and tradition can work along each other to preserve these seeds to preserve these traditional ways of growing this food that seems to be going out of extinction? I mean, I think we've again as as humans we we we often make this mistake of thinking scientific breakthroughs Are all we need and these techno fixes that that happened. Well, you know, whether it's the roller mill in the 19th century or the You know the green revolution in the 20th century and I think I I mentioned this physicist in the introduction of the book barabasi who talks about this Reductionist approach we've had to science for too long and that we haven't seen the interplay between the way we farm and The impact on biodiversity and then the knock on effects and the risks So I think you know this simplification um of processes and just seeing these scientific breakthroughs as the You know as a solution And then it starts to impact on us in in many kind of you know, in many different ways. So I think um, again, we're becoming aware of the interconnectedness Of things and actually realizing that what was dismissed as a traditional or you know, some people's Terms would be a a backward or primitive way of producing food Actually, it's far more sophisticated and complex than we've we realized and it deserves to be researched and invested in Thank you. I believe we have a question here. Yeah, there's a question that's come in um online from claire and she said Joe has talked about how PDOs being co-opted I suppose by special interests Are PDOs and this is a question for any of you are PDOs part of the solution or part of the problem Could they be used as part of the solution? Oh, you may have gleaned that I'm not a big fan of the PDO system I think it's fairly valueless at the moment. There are Accreditations or a recognition that we get that mean a lot more to me and slow food is one of them to have That community of people's point at you and say what you're doing is important means a lot more to me than a PDO would Having said that you could fix it You could fix it now would take political will and we came up against that when you know, I applied to have that PDO changed But our government was not interested I had the misfortune of going I went over George Eustace's head and went straight to the european commission And got a meeting with DG agriculture the day after brexit So a lot of stony faces but It's been co-opted and it's being lobbied by people that want to control that for commercial reasons Market share not about preserving traditions for people or the people involved or the people eating that food The people involved in making it so you'd I have no faith in the PDO system as it stands when I see the the label You know that little star thing it means nothing to me. It indicates nothing No integrity or anything special about food, but that could be changed if governments Took some interest in it and vetted those applications and said hey What does pasteurization have to do with traditional cheese making? I don't think that should be in there Until you have that will it will be a meaningless label And your thoughts Tom I I will Marginally disagree with Joe there only because with the wonderful arrival of brexit We no longer can use PGI and PDO in the in the european Use of it. So that that that labeling now It isn't used here. We have our own version of it And it is a very good opportunity for us to change that But I don't think it's been seized. We've adopted on mass The the situation as it was when we were still in europe But I do think in terms of the that labeling for the rest of europe That it does hold up in many many cases and there are some tremendous Growers cheese makers wine makers cider makers in the rest of europe that use pdo and pgi For me it does have validity But within the uk. Yes He is 100 right I am a member or yes of a pgi That was hijacked by big cider And was a reflection of the necessities for that company Rather than the values that cider and perry should have itself Interesting interesting Yes In the middle of the about fifth row back Young lady They're coming at you from both sides From the discussion it seems that maybe the industrial level of farming that contributes to the extinction of food and And I watched on the documentary about that like more than half of the food that's in That's in the industrial farming are going to the animal like agriculture as like feed So do you think that animal like out? Do you think that animal like agriculture could be one of the drivers of the of the extinction of Of the more traditional food food Yeah, well, I think there are some very clear examples of the way in which Again going back to that 20th century breakthrough of producing Huge amounts of grain so much so that we ended up feeding it to animals Or using it for fuel Shows that how distorted The system became And obviously deforestation and the cultivation of soy And monocultures of palm as well for production of Oil as well Yeah, so I think It isn't just About animals and livestock it's about how we have created A cheap meat System supposedly cheap cheap meat. Whereas in the in the book I'm trying to get across the idea that there are again these intricate sophisticated ways in which livestock have been part has Have been part of Food systems for thousands of years so take for example the the example of So I write about pigs the domestication of of pigs and also if you think about the way in which Um, roommates as well play a role and the cycle of fertility as well So there are you know, there are systems in which we use livestock that are that can be beneficial to Farming systems, but I think it's when we unpick that system and then You know took the animals and put them into intensive systems and then started to produce crops to feed the animals so again there are Lots of extremely sophisticated complex systems Invol including animals that that we could draw on the world in which Fossil fuels being used for fossilizers deforestation to produce soy for to feed pigs You know, it's becoming increasingly apparent that is something that we cannot continue But there are ways in which we can integrate livestock into systems that are beneficial On the end on the end and then This is a question for dan and it's quite personal. Um, I think Journey in terms of Discovering all these stories and food stuffs. Um, what stands out as being particularly yummy that you've come across that you've really enjoyed eating I think That lentil was was really interesting And again, it's because I think it's the same way in which that the cavill jar wheat in In eastern turkey, you know had had its own Identity in terms of flavor and the way that was used in meals This was an exceptional Not many times you get to say this in a sentence an exceptional lentil in that, you know, um And you know, it's texture and its flavor and again, it made me realize that there is huge amounts of diversity That most of us never get to experience um That can completely change your perception your view of of some of the foods that perhaps we don't have in our Diets, but actually it is about the particular varieties or types of foods likewise with, you know The Ugandan banana. I mean, I I drank some the beer brewed from Some of these endangered bananas in Uganda and in fact a a type of gin as well and again just opened my mind Beyond what what my daily experience or encounter might be with a with a banana. So I think yeah, something as humble as the Swabian lentil but also there's another story which is uh from southwest in colorado and um, I spent some time with a native american former chef Carlos Bacca who took me into these forests and gave me something called Beirut and it's been used by people as everything from an insecticide to relieving coughs to being a flavor in his case with blue blue corn um, it's a childhood flavor, but it's again, it's just the I think it was the power this medicinal property that it had but also being there and and being told this story of what it meant to him and the history it revealed of what had been lost through um colonialization So I think it's the power of a story in combination with these flavors really that um, and again, that's what food is It's that it's not just about the genetic resources and you know, we should be worried about food security It's about identity and culture and the fact that humans have been so ingenious to create this huge diversity of thousands of years That's that's my inheritance. It's your inheritance in the form of seeds and livestock breeds that are disappearing and the way Joe was talking about I mean that Every time I hear Joe talking about talking about cheese that way And actually that's our cheese and that's our food history um, so I think they are the power of of the story with the with the flavor It amplifies the experience so lentils and lentils and Beirut I don't know if they go together They might we've got somebody who's got the mic and someone who wants it So yes, I know sorry to bring you back to the more serious question of this food systems But Dan, I was going to ask you a lot of brands are now investing in the idea of regenerative agriculture How successful do you think that's going to be in kind of bringing back biodiversity? I think what's actually happening is that a lot of the big I mean I'm talking about the major global Want to change but struggle to change. I think they are locked into a system So what what's increasingly happening is they're buying up small small companies and in some cases not all cases but in some cases investing in them supporting them To enable them to scale up So that's an interesting trend to watch But also I think It really needs to happen on a major scale so I think the the example of India and the way in which when the the influence of British botanists surviving in the 19th century and displacing a lot of indigenous crops with mostly British bread, wheat And also expanding rice cultivation. It turns out that When scientists have looked at what India really needs for its future food, it's millets So these tiny You know these tiny grains that and had huge amounts of diversity But because India became a You know this this rice and wheat boom that was created by external Influences they lost so much of that But it turns out if you if you made calculations when it comes to water usage nutrient deficiency Soil use of energy Millets wins over and one of the reasons it fell out of favor is because they're they're difficult to process To to to mill But we now have the technology to make that happen And so I think on a big scale Bringing benefits Environmental benefits, but also health benefits Yeah, the evidence is building and growing that what went before actually can play a part in the future Yeah Well, this and then last last question so please hello Hi, Joe. This is a question for you. I'm over here. It's a sort of cheese specific question I wanted your advice as a cheese maker because I'm really interested in trying to make my own cheese at home But I'm finding two sort of main barriers one is that there doesn't seem to be an obvious route To sort of go somewhere and learn how to make cheese That there just doesn't really seem to be like many comprehensive cheese courses and the second one is you sort of Were singing the praises of raw milk In cheeses, which I would love to try but it seems to be quite hard to get hold of You know as someone who lives in southwest london. Where does one find raw milk? Do I need to get some goats? Uh, yeah, well you can get raw milk And probably in london there are people selling it You know linkage or poacher sells bottles of raw milk if you're talking about like a little Stovetop exercise you you could go to a market and and look for raw milk. There are a lot of cheese maker farmers who come into london with with raw milk that you could take away Or you could find a local farm and just drive up and see if they'll sell you some we sell raw milk on our farm Through a machine. So that is something with a little bit of investigation you could do As for cheese making courses I have some sympathy for you because when I started there was nothing they had sort of industrialized cheese making courses And I love this subject because it kind of gets to the root of how you transfer knowledge From one generation to the next in terms of cheese making So I was desperate and hungry for knowledge. How do I participate in this craft? How do I become good at it? And I couldn't find that path and it's gotten better now. There are some very good cheese courses It's going to sound like a plug But where we make cheese is in Nottinghamshire on the Wellbeck estate We have a school called the school of artisan food And it runs some cheese making courses at a very basic level or at a sort of professional development level So they are out there, but they're they're thin on the ground. So I do sympathize with you Okay, and then this person yes This is a question for Dan and Joe really you've both mentioned the need for political will How do we get it? Yeah, uh, I think Because um Short-term electoral cycles obviously are not uh, conducive to big systemic change and We have the national we're waiting to see what happens with the national food strategy and the white paper that will be produced From that and it's been delayed and delayed You know and obviously, you know contemporary events mean means that we're distracted and and thinking about Issues elsewhere in the world, but I think A really interesting thing that's happening behind the scenes really is is thinking about the um, the investor networks that are hugely influential and controlling trillions and trillions of of pounds so the kind of Institutions that are thinking about where are you know, if you're lucky enough to have a pension You know where those pension funds are and actually That money is moving away from what is now considered to be the more risky intensive systems where In a few years time it could be that they are you know the target of government regulation For health reasons, you know, it could be more sugar taxes or there could be disease outbreaks from livestock that create huge costs of litigation That money is is moving in into interesting places and it's it's it is hugely influential um, and so I think yeah politics will take its own course and Certainly will have to respond to the unavoidable which is that there is a finite amount of fossil fuels that will produce fertilizer and that system and populations will become increasingly Sick because of the food system and so the you know these predictions that there's going to be more invested within the NHS on type 2 diabetes than cancer um, so I think there's a political reality that cannot be avoided so I think it's going to be interesting um to watch I don't know what to expect from this white paper More than anyone else, but I think follow the money and actually see where huge amounts of capital is shifting towards some quite innovative ways of producing food for the future So I'm optimistic Because we have to change it has to happen. There's no there is no way of avoiding change But again, we don't want to just repeat the same mistakes from the past and have another kind of green revolution type exercise where we end up with new forms of monocultures um, yeah I'm more cynical you may have picked up on that already I think the political and and my focus is much more narrow. It's just about cheese in my experience with it but The political will oh, and there was a gentleman who asked earlier like how do I how do I find these things? How do I know what to eat and if I go to my supermarket? I just get bombarded with indifferent food and cheese and When I moved to britain, I didn't even know that parmesan or red john or didn't come in a little green can. I'm sorry That's true so I went on my own journey and Anybody who's paid attention to american politics over the last five years may have come to the conclusion that Democracy is dead or mortally wounded So I think you're only form of Democracy and political will is where you spend your pound So if you walk into a shop like neils are daring you take the time to learn and explore and go on a quest I've got to change how I Eat in in shop and what I care about and I want a different kind of connection if you do that Skirting issues of elitism and you know, you're gonna have to pay for that But you're buying into something that So we're too small for government to notice or care about so if More people buy our kind of cheese Again very narrow focus and more farms can make a living making this kind of cheese and more people get pleasure Nobody's mentioned that word yet. You know the flavor lentil. It's human Right. You love that it gave you pleasure. That's why we eat good food You sit at a table with people you love and you eat food that amazes you and that's pleasurable That's what we want And if more people do that Then we become a group that can't be ignored And then there's all sorts of fallouts of people and making good food Then there's downward pressure for their producers and farmers to produce in a better way That's the political will that I'm looking for it's sort of more grassroots At the same time, I don't think we should be beating ourselves up as individuals saying it's it's all down to us Because I think there is a the reality is there is only so much we can change Well, I mean I think that that may be a good place to leave it. It's all down to us So I want to say thank you Tom, but I also want to ask both of you Where does one obtain? Where does one get your parry? Where does one get your cheese? Um, well, if you're in London, you could go to Neozaire Dairy at Burra Market or Covent Garden Or by Alma. We'll look. Very good. Okay And as far as I go, um, you could go to the London Cider House in Burra Market or you can get it from Fine Cider And they do a wonderful online and distribution job Wonderful. Thank you so much. And we know that you can get Dan's book downstairs So There would be that. Thank you gentlemen. So very much for very Thank you. What a fabulous wonderful discussion. I think we can all get behind eat it to save it Just want to thank you all Dan I want to thank you from all of us for writing that book Which is such an important book and such a readable book And a book I think that's going to be so influential I want to thank Joe and I want to thank Tom for saving our tradition cheese and Stichelton and Perry Incredibly important and I want to thank you Jessica for All the work that you do and for doing us the great honor of being part of the British Library food season Just, you know, my work here is done as far as I'm concerned. It's amazing to have you So thank you so much. So please can everyone thank this amazing panel I I'm not going to get between