 Welcome to today's vital conversation with our community, the spirit of social change, a conversation between Interfaith Ministries and Project Curate. Interfaith Ministries is pleased to be able to host these virtual conversations on topics with people and organizations in our community addressing crucial issues. We offer our thanks for the support of Citco Petroleum Corporation as the sponsor of our whole 2021 series. For a proceed just a reminder that this event is being recorded. Thank you all for to those of us who are joining and zoom please keep yourselves muted and please use the chat box to send me questions along the way we also welcome those who are joining us via Facebook live. Conversations emerged after the death of George Floyd, a son of Houston's third ward in May of 2020 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. In June we brought our together our three amigos Reverend William Lawson Archbishop Joe Firenza and Rabbi Sam carp into dialogue to begin the series, it would be the final time that the three amigos would be together in the same space. As Rabbi carp died that following August second summer conversation on allyship followed and then we began our fall series with a conversation between four outstanding young leaders. And our second fall conversation was with the fifth ward, CRC and its Center for Urban Transformation. And we concluded last year season with a vital conversation with scholars from Rice University's Houston Education Research Consortium. We began our 2021 series in July with a conversation with Ashley Johnson and Jonathan Brooks from link Houston about transportation and equity, and our vital August vital conversation with Eileen Morris and Rachel Hill Dixon from the ensemble theater was titled indomitable Spirit, the strength of artistic expression. I am gh.org to learn more about interfaith ministries work and how to donate at I am gh.org you can also learn more about our overall work in the community. And you can also learn about our 2021 series. You'll also have the opportunity to register for our upcoming vital conversation episodes including our October conversation titled welcoming the stranger which will focus on I am as refugee work in Houston, especially in light of our recent work and our upcoming work with Afghan refugees. You can also access the study guide that you can use with our five episodes from our 2020 vital conversation series. Today, our theme is the spirit of social change. We've invited leadership from project curate to join us now project curate is a nonprofit social impact agency that works with religious academic and community organizations and they do so through curriculum development training and design, and you'll hear more about the important work of project curate in just a moment. I'd like to welcome as our two guests, Brandi Holmes, who is co managing partner of project curate sharing responsibility for the overall strategic direction, planning development and implementation of a range of initiatives and and projects that provide robust civic engagement with diverse public issues around issues of bias, race, equity and social justice. She's a native Houstonian who combines years of corporate strategy and training experience with a passion for racial and social justice and mentoring young high school students. Since returning to Houston in 2014 Brandi has focused her attention on various black liberation struggles, but especially the struggles of black girls and women. She's a noted social activist community organizer and strategist, especially the dedicated to policy and criminal justice transformation and community empowerment. She's a graduate of the University of North Texas with a concentration in marketing. Dr. Rachel Schneider is the co managing partner of project curate and shares with with brandy those same responsibilities of overall strategic direction planning development and implementation of initiatives and projects with project curate. She's the PhD from rice rice university and she's a post doctoral research fellow at rice rice's religion and public life program. And both her academic and community work Rachel's work seeks to advocate racial justice social equity and human learning to the harm caused by white supremacy and anti supremacy and anti blackness and working collaboratively with others to create change. And she has worked since 2017 with other project curate team members to design public curricula that brings together clergy, academics, activists, artists, laity, and students to learn from one another. And with that, I am going to stop my share and again welcome everyone who is here and particularly to welcome brandy and Rachel, and I'm going to get you both spotlighted so that we can see you here you come. Thank you both for being with us. So let's just start and dive right into the conversation. Let's start with learning I tried to kind of to truncate what's on the website because we want to hear from you. Can you tell us a little bit more about project curate what do you want people beyond what's on the website to know about your work and why your works important. Sure, certainly, I certainly love starting a conversation with that question. I just want to thank you Greg for the opportunity to be here Rachel and I always excited to be in conversation with one another which we have done quite often but to do it here and to share a bit more about our work and what we've been learning over the course of the year. Since George Floyd is really a wonderful opportunity so thank you so much again for the opportunity and for everyone that's here. So to talk a little bit about project curate as Greg mentioned, we really are trying to address racial injustice at the intersections and also any kind of inequality and equity issues that exist. And we do that by really creating an environment to foster liberating public and community engagement practices that really move people into these zones, where they can begin to dismantle any sort of barriers that exists along the lines of class, race, sex, gender and any sort of political orientation and so we really invite folks into this diverse community to begin to engage in those practices, so they can not only learn and understand how those systems impact all of us but also where they can learn solidarity and also network building which is really important thinking about how we can work collaboratively across lines and across difference, not only for our personal accountability for our transformation and for social change. And to put it plainly I think what's so important with our work is that we really are wanting to create spaces and invite folks folks into spaces, where we can begin to think about how we can be in right relationship with one another right. So how can we begin to look at the systems that exist that create distance that create division right and so how can we get make things right, and how can we create a more just and equitable system and world where all of us, right, not just the few but all of us can thrive in the current environment and so our work is really important, like you mentioned because, as we see moments like what has happened with George Floyd or what has happened with Breonna Taylor right it's an invitation in these moments for us to pause, and it invites new people into conversation right and they began to think about how they can orient themselves towards justice and towards solidarity. And so we see ourselves as a space where people can come and to begin to ask those questions and to become and began to engage in that type of dialogue and brave and courageous spaces right which so often is very difficult to find in this day and age and cancel culture and social media right, we really are leaning into a model of transformative justice that allows us into enter into spaces of dialogue so excited about this conversation because we hope to model just that very thing. Thanks brandy how about you Rachel what do you want to add again about the work and why is it important. Yeah, I mean I think brandy really summed it up I mean I think this work is really about imagining different futures for ourselves. I really see ourselves as I mean brandy and I have really formal titles but I think our work is really premised on how do we work collaboratively with and recognize the wisdom and the leadership and expertise of communities and people on the ground, particularly those who are historically marginalized and currently experiencing marginalization and systemic marginalization and inequities. And so, you know, we're really about how do we create community spaces that really center those voices and community spaces as well. And also then what does that what kind of transformation does that not require of how we share knowledge how we build knowledge and how we build coalitions and collaborative work to tackle issues of injustice so a bottom up approach, rather than a top down approach. It's great to hear and really interesting to hear words like brave and courageous particularly the word imagine and I've been familiar with curates work for quite a few years, even before, you know, summer of 2020. And when many began to get the sense of consciousness be be be heightened or or a greater understanding, but let's let's maybe talk a little bit though about the past year. And leadership on on about a year ago talking about the concept of allyship. But I would love to hear more about what you're all what your work has looked like particularly over the past year. So maybe you could share some stories or, or just, I'll just open it up just share about what this past year has looked like for y'all. Yeah, definitely I've been thinking a lot about just this past. I mean really it's the past year and a half feels like this longest period of time, you know that that we've been in, but I guess maybe just to broaden out just a bit. A lot of what curates done is we've, you know, in the past had these learning opportunities in our city, where we know people have really gathered, and we brought together, you know, community organizers and, and community leaders, big leaders and, you know, really come and gathered in a space together and been on intentional learning journeys whether it's for, you know, a curriculum that lasts several months. So that's typically what we've done, but obviously with coven 19 with, for everyone, things have changed. And as coven 19 really, you know, became the pandemic really sort of emerged on the horizon. I think in curate we were immediately attuned to the fact that this was going to require, you know, something we've already been doing which is engaging with inequities and attending to those who are most impacted. And so, so you know, in a way, and it wasn't just the pandemic with coven 19, you know, we've been long aware I've heard people talk about it I don't necessarily love this language but dual pandemics pandemic the pandemic of anti racism, or not anti racism. I think of racism and anti blackness that has been part of centuries of us life. And so, you know, I think, over the past year, we, there's a, there's been a need to both recognize what we have survived in this nation, the harm that's been perpetuated. Similarly, in relation to black communities, and what we are surviving because not only have we serve, you know, are we surviving amidst coven 19 and the pandemic but we've also seen these real issues of police violence, and the targeting of specific communities. And the inequitable ways in which the pandemic has unfolded. So all of those issues have been in the background. And then, for us, you know, we've been thinking about, you know, how what does collective human flourishing look like amidst these times, and what can sustain us and brandy mentioned transformative justice and I'll let her talk more about that. But really, what does it mean to name harm, and then transform the conditions that cause harm. So that's kind of what we've been thinking about, but practically what we've done. One of our programs in particular has been a program called building transformative congregational leaders. And that's in the midst of the coven we'd already had this plan we'd received funding we were going to gather people we were going to do all sorts of a cool, like field experiences and of course we had to switch everything online. But we have gathered over the last year 30 to 40. Well, it's been about 40 faith communities congregational groups that are saying, we want to pursue and learn how to build justice driven community. We want to reimagine our congregational life and learn new practices and recognizing that to like both support create justice beyond congregations and churches but also that our churches need to become spaces of justice. We have been wrestling with what kind of personal transformation needs to happen what kind of culture transformation needs to happen. And so it's been a year of meeting for four hours every Saturday. We've really been deep with one another, and really attuning to who is in the room and being open to experimenting and being in process together, but really grappling with these issues of how do we name harm. How do we address it, and how do we transform the conditions that perpetuate harm and break and both. So how can we like see these cycles and interrupt them that we have been seeing play out nationally and socially. And I can share more about that later but brandy wants to add anything. Yeah, Randy please. So what I was going to add is, you know, one of the kind of coordinates that we really love is a quote from Grace Lee Boggs around transforming yourself to transform the world. And I think what Rachel really highlighted was that, while this work is something that we're doing and putting out into the world this is also work that we all are deeply doing as a team. So it is not so much I mean really take a fractal approach right to this entire thing to say hey what we practice on the small scale is what we're going to see on a larger scale so if we really are truly a people who want to be committed to transformative justice committed to seeing change happen committed to seeing transformation and other folks. We have to first see that in ourselves and so that has meant that while we are sharing with others we are also learning and growing as a team, and that work is really important work I think as we talk about hey, what can folks do is. We really got to begin to do that interpersonal work and then also to do that work as a collective and so we have and that's been deep work. It's challenging work it is gratifying work it is wonderful work because you, you begin to see how, if we can transform ourselves at this collective level it is very possible right the imagination can begin to believe, and to see ways that this can happen on a larger scale. So I think really important to what Rachel has mentioned is, we're doing this work as we're living it and as we're sharing it as we're modeling becomes really important. Again you're with us with vital conversations with our community with interfaith ministries we are with Rachel Schneider and Brandy Holmes from project curate. Please feel free to ask questions in the chat box if you have that available with us on zoom. One of the reasons that I always value discussions with project curate is that while I know that you want to see change in policy, and you will take to the streets when it comes to protest. This approach of transforming self transforming world imagination. I think in many cases are is language and approach culture and cycles are approaches that are maybe new to people that that that they're maybe a little unusual. I also know project curate you're not just aspirational, but that you're deeply community based in community focused so I find that your approach is one that I want people to know about and learn about. And, and I also because interfaith ministries relies so much on the religious and spiritual and ethical impulse and when I use that word religious I use that in a very expansive way, considering how how diverse our community is. And I want to point people to as well to visit project curate.org when when we conclude because you have with some of your guiding principles. You're deeply committed developing spiritual practices that allow one to engage in a continual process of self and communal reflection I'll just paraphrase here, recognizing divine power in the voices and cultural productions of those historically engaging with and learning from prophetic forms of witness made from various non faith orientations, including Christian Buddhist Muslim Jewish humanist forms of thought and practice, which is why we've called this the spirit of social change. I'd love to turn to those stories then so that people can really see that deep kind of intellectual work combined with that kind of grassroots ground up community based work about how you have seen where social and spiritual practices have intersected. Who wants to go brandy want to go first. Yeah, no definitely I think I'm, you know, as you mentioned, in the bio every time I hear about my bio too I'm like is that really me. Fantastic Who is that smashing. All right. You're even more amazing. I also wrote that to me brother cleave tinsley help me out on that so I appreciate having somebody else do that. But yeah, as you were talking about that my background and really my heart is in community organizing and being out in the streets with the people. And as you mentioned like thinking about hey this prophetic imagination and where is knowledge, where does knowledge come from where is it found. We talk about transformative justice we talk about pod mapping we talk about all of these different strategies for community organizing, whereas these strategies have been things and practices that the community has been doing for years and eons and eons and ions right like we look at right now, the response to the coven 19 and the pandemic and mutual aid right have any has anybody heard a rent parties right, is anybody seen somebody on the corner doing selling cool cups and and lemonade pops and blow pops and all these other types of things and bake sales right like a mutual aid is something that the community has done and is doing to support one another and so we're seeing mutual aid now on a larger skill right well coven 19 is we're seeing folks with wages and evictions and things along those lines so the knowledge has always and will always be with the people the people have the solutions and too often. Right there are folks who believe that they have the solution without being in relationship with people. So they seek to serve community but they cause more harm, more violence, more abuse. Because they believe themselves to be the source of knowledge and wisdom and not listen to the real source of knowledge and wisdom which is the people. And so I think that's a really important story as folks are thinking about hey, how do we help in the pandemic or how do we help with the recent hurricane and Louisiana how do we help in these different situations and if you're listening to media right particularly they'll tell you that New Orleans is hit the hardest. Listen to the people they'll say no come down to homo. You know, come down to some of these other areas that actually this is what was hit. The hardest, these are areas that we really need more help them because we're rural areas we often don't get the attention that's needed and necessary. And so a real practice for us is wanting to go where the knowledge is, and wanting to get out of the way, right, provide a resource, provide opportunity for about space for those voices to be heard and so my, my work is to get out of the way, and to uplift that voice, right. And, and given certain circumstances where that voice can't be present due to particular barriers that may present themselves. If that community allows me to speak on their behalf and to represent what they would like to be said in that space because they can't be there, then I'm willing to do that. But I never speak for the community unless the community gives me permission to do that and so that really that permission based relationship is really important I would never seek to speak for a community that I'm not a part of or that has not given me the privilege to do that sort of thing and so I think that's really important as well. So really moving back from parachuting in to being with and being in relationship with which is an entirely different orientation than what we're used to it's a conversation about charity versus justice right and we're having a justice oriented conversation, which means we got to be in right relationship with people, which means I can't tell you what to do you tell me what you need. I want to come back to a couple of things but Rachel please. Yeah, I mean I would just add to that like I think another principle that we try to practice and that has happened in our building transformative congregational leaders program with our congregational leaders has been the practice of earned trust. That's particularly for privileged white folks like you know me that we don't have a right like in some ways I recognizing that any knowledge and wisdom and leadership that is given to us and shared with us from the community. We don't have a right to that but we also need to earn it we need to become. Let's talk about prophetic truth telling so what are the truths that we really that I, you know and my community really need to hear and face and confront and wrestle with. And, and are we creating spaces and cultures and communities that allow for that truth to be told, and when it's told, are we welcoming it, and so prophetic listening, you know, listening to those truths. We've had moments where we've had harm done where we have you know these mixed mixed race spaces with different, you know, gender identities and sexuality where there has been real harm cause someone said something or done something, maybe out of ignorance maybe and it's really had an impact and so we've had to really pause and really hold that and really speak to that and those are the kinds of practices that we're wanting to also practice like encourage folks to practice in their congregational spaces or other congregational spaces. And with that the network that requires community care collective care, attending to who is most who has power, who's taking the space, who's making space, who's most vulnerable and and, but then I guess like clear like what brandy said my role is like clearing the way like it's not about me and what I have to say. It's really about what's emerging from the wisdom of the body and to that end we have a collaborative team that plans everything. So it's not one person, but really work we were collaboratively. Let me follow up on just a couple of things. It sounds to me brandy let me turn back to you that there seems to be a lot of unlearning or relearning about community engagement that that needs to happen these are not concepts that sound, at least with my experience and working with my peers that are very familiar of the language of earned trust or prophetic truth telling so. So I want to throw out that question about what have you found you needed to sort of unlearn. And that would be for you or for Rachel and I would also want to ask I would think that some people and I'll just say myself that I would be worried about being worrying about my well meaning this that I think that I'm trying that I'm, I'm trying to do my best, but I'm worried about what I've what I'm what I don't know. And so how do you help people also work through sort of that that potential paralysis of being well meaning but not exactly knowing what to do. You have awesome questions great. I'm just I'm not just trying to you know patch you there this is the truth you really got some great ones I would say something that Rachel mentioned so so early on is really so super important is that that we're in relationship with one another. So it's not so simply that we are just here talking to you, like we are practicing these things and we practice these things in relationship with one another. Now does that mean that Rachel and I best is to the key distinction that needs to happen is many ways that we begin to use relationship right and take advantage of relationship right and exploit relationship relationship is not transactional right which is how some ways unfortunately some folks engage in relationship with one another, whereas like I call this person my friend because we have transacted or shared some sort of resource. That ain't it right that ain't it that may happen right you may you may share resource but that that to me feels more like a networking relationship right and not necessarily a relationship so moving toward solidarity. That doesn't mean that Rachel and I are going to be the best of buddies and friends right so often we found, at least that I have found that some of our white brothers and sisters are challenged because they think that we need to enter into come by your friendship with one another before we can be in solidarity with one another. No you don't have to care about my cause to then be able to care about me right so so let's let's let's see how we can begin to do some work together in solidarity with one another. And how we do that, we may develop a friendship or we may not, but that's not contingent upon you doing justice oriented work and so it's so important to be in community with folks right, and it's so important to know that hey guess what, you are going to fumble and you are going to make a mistake, you fumble and you make mistakes in other areas of your lives as well right and what do you do right you look at the situation, you take an opportunity to pause you take an opportunity to put reflect, and you take an opportunity to assess and make the course correct right. And so just know that in the work of justice work, justice orientation you are also going to make a mistake, right, and it's, that's okay. Right, no one is perfect and I think we need to really kind of divorce ourself of that idea like we have a real kind of perfectionist mentality in our culture that says, everybody got to be perfect I got to say the right thing. That's the wrong thing about 15 times on this broadcast alone, I don't know. Right, but I'm still here, and I'm still going to show up right, and that's really important and so accountability in that relationship is important as well so if I do. Right if I do have a moment where I really kind of step outside or I do have a moment where there's some sort of harm or offense that I may cause. I got somebody like Rachel will say, Hey Brandy can we talk after the broadcast. And I just want to call it to your attention and we move forward and love and care and grace right and all of those things so I think that's really important for someone to say hey, I'm nervous I'm a mess up, you will find you somebody you can mess up with that gives you permission to mess up with them, and you just keep it moving you'll be you'll be fine. Now, I think it's important to say I love everything you just said but I think it's also important to say that the mess up is not only going to be on people who are not people of color like people of color. We met. First of all, we don't even sometimes know everything that we need to know about our own culture and about the things that we have had happened to us. Recently participated in a transformational African American leadership in the church universal that was the focus of the cohort I was in for my doctorate and that was there were things that I learned. You know, that have happened. And I'm a minor in African American Studies. I'm black I thought, you know, so there are things that we know that we still have to learn and there's also we were not the expert on everything so we've all got to kind of come to it with. Today, we're all trying to learn and be better together. So I mean I love what you guys are doing. Matt Russell was my professor when I was working on my master's. That's how I first heard about project curate and I love the work you guys are doing. I'm very excited about everything y'all do so. Yeah, thank you so much and I really appreciate you bring up that point right and highlight that because it is that is important. I'm going to of course right I don't know everything that is to know about orientation sexual orientation I don't know everything is so many different I don't even know everything that I may do around class right. So there's so many different ways that you mentioned that we all have to do our work it's not just the white kind of black but you know primarily what we're experiencing here in this country but there is so much work that has to be done to your point Rachel I think you were going to say some jazz. I thank you so much for that comment. And it is so important, I mean I think what I'm continually practicing in my work with project curate is and what we're trying to do in our community programs is learning how to, to build, like, like, what do we need to sustain us and keep us resilient so that we can continue to show up. And I think you know we have this whole discussion about like white fragility, you know, in the larger culture and context which is essentially like, but I mean it boils down, you know, regardless of what you think about that concept, it boils down to, you know, you know, so often, I think well meaning white folks come in and they want to get involved, you know, we saw a lot of people contact us after George Floyd's death they want to do something. And then when they feel uncomfortable, or have some, have people speak back to them and say no actually this is not what we need or this is what you need to look at, then there's a kind of collapse or paralyzing like you said Greg. And so what does it mean to address things, confront them reflect you know we really reflect on oneself why am I getting so emotional or stuck here why am I feeling what I'm feeling, but then also making apologies making amends, and also continuing to move forward so that we're not thrown off or the work stops because we have to keep in mind that the overall goal is working and moving together towards right relationship towards justice. And so that's kind of you know we just keep coming back to that over and over and over. And I had something about unlearning but we can come back to that like an example of things that we're unlearning we have unlearned we need to unlearn collectively but I just wanted to say that it's about kind of what do we need to do to address things as they come up so that we can keep showing up. Yeah. And I see I see a hand up as well Randy I'm going to get to you in just a second and I also just wanted to recognize the common from Reverend Tammy Wilson who is on a board of directors that I am and also as the co chair of our interfaith relations and Community so and as a and as a good good friend. Again, the words that you use. Trans, and I know that I would want to hear about transformative justice but just the concept of transformation and change. And as we mentioned prophetic truth telling these, these are words that we often hear out of the spiritual and religious and ethical tradition so I'm wondering if we could spend a little time as a maybe as a segueing over into. Maybe with, with, with, with keeping confidentiality, maybe some specific kind of anecdotes or vignettes from these 40 faith communities that you've worked with. Regarding this kind of this again to focus on the spirit of social change, what sort of change and struggles have you seen come out of these cohorts that you've been working with over the past over the past couple years or the past year. Rachel kind of just for the sake of just making a choice Rachel can we start with you. Um, you know that's really interesting I mean, thinking of spiritual practices I think one of the things that we have sought to challenge in our congregational leader program is, you know what are our sources what are what are the things that we rely on for our spiritual sustenance so when we have these traditional texts and we look for places and traditional, you know, organizations, but we've really sought to like so we've incorporated particular practices that, you know, come out of, you know, many contemplative traditions but that involved deep reflection and grounding to begin our time together. But then we've utilized, we've utilized public powerful voices that maybe we don't typically see as sources of spiritual wisdom and leadership, and we've used image we've used contemporary black art to really reflect. We've used, you know, the words of Audrey Lord, we've really, we've really wanted to really begin like we said in one of our principles, recognizing divine power in the voices and the wisdom of the oppressed. And so we've that's how we often begin our sessions. And one of the things that I think was most powerful this last session, we were coming on to December as you know by this time for religious leaders in particular from, you know, this is a very hairy time and we were in the pandemic and our team just recognized but we had a plan for how we wanted to, you know, go forward. And we just recognize that really what was needed in our December session was was a real slowing down and emphasis on community care, and just like tending to our spirits. But what came out of that was a recognition and a real, not reimagining, but really reconnecting to the idea that are of Sabbath as resistance, and recognizing that for black communities and so many other communities in the US historically and contemporary. What are the systems that are that make it so that there is no rest, you know, thinking about Brianna Taylor, whose rest was violently interrupted. And, you know, so really grappling with, you know, rest is available to some and not others and why is that. And then, what does Sabbath is resistance mean in that context. It's an opportunity and a call to divest from unjust systems and we have an amazing member of our planning team, Andrea so they're who led us in this profound meditation on the 10 months and how then you know how observing the Sabbath is so tied to divestment from injustice and loving neighbor and how intertwined these are and so you know it's really refocused us in many ways that session really refocused us on spirituality for the long term, but also we don't just do we don't just practice like a bubble bath for self care. You know, that's not what this is about. And we also grapple with why, why there is no rest. What are the cries of an, you know, injustice that we need to be listening to and in that COVID, you know we think of our essential workers, you know, all of those layers for what we impact. Thank you. Randy, please. And I would say Rachel, just beautifully I mean if we're talking about a basketball game and this is a wonderful assist and I'm going to go and MJ it into the whole because she mentioned like, hey, who can't who can't rest and what are the systems that make it possible for folks not to be able to do that and how do we address the root cause of that harm. So transformative justice is right you asked that questions around. Hey, what is transformative justice and how do we begin to practice that and transformative justice is really a framework and approach to think about how to respond to this violence how to respond to harm how we respond to abuse, and how do we do it in such a way that does not create more violence, create more harm or create more abuse right. And so like she mentioned is really looking at and acknowledging right in beginning to think about how we can enter into right relationship with one another. But in order to do that we have to acknowledge the root cause of the harm, the root cause of the violence right so we have to name which is important in the prophetic truth telling is we have to name these things. We cannot be afraid to use terms like white supremacy and racism and anti blackness and anti immigrant sentiment right, we have to begin to call these things as they are which is a spiritual practice right until we until we do that. If we run away from those things right we never can begin to address them. And so one of the key tennis of transformative justice is really acknowledging the cause of harm and the root cause of harm, and also looking at what types of things can we create what types of new systems right what kind of ways can we deconstruct and in some ways abolish certain systems practices, infrastructures right that create and continue perpetuate those types of harm. And so when we do that right, we began to imagine, which is a really fun space to be in. Imagine worlds like Rachel mentioned right this prophetic imagination. Hey what type of world can we exist in and what can we create together here in this particular community. So like she mentioned, like this rest is Sabbath as resistance really introduced an opportunity for us to think about not only our own personal care but communal care. Right so communal care which is so often so very important. And so that that really is the heart of this transformative justice model, and also how we can begin to practice that with ourselves right because there's some, there might be some things that we need to transform within right and also how we do that across community and with others. Oh there's just so I mean so much there but I'm hoping that what people are hearing is not, I would say, I would describe it perhaps as new or innovative language or an understanding of community change. But I would also propose that these some of these practices are very very old and ancient that we have forgotten. So I'm wondering Rachel if we could maybe to pivot back to you, I would like to hear a little bit more about that unlearning but perhaps a little bit about what you've discovered as well. That many of these practices have been available to us and literally in front of our faces for for for generation and either been forgotten, where they've been. They've been suppressed. So, I know you wanted to say something about the unlearning but I'm wondering if you could maybe riff a little bit on on what we've discovered or rediscovered as well. I think what I was going to come back to that about this resistance idea because part of what it's unlearning is, you know, it, we have these cultures that are so fueled by inequality and inequity, our economic system rests so often on, you know, like, I can enjoy rest of leisure because someone else is working for me and their labor is being used. So, really, I think reimagining and beginning to think about, what does it, I wrote this in the chat, how can we create the conditions where all can experience rest and flourishing, it's not just privilege, the privilege of a few. So what would it mean, like, so then it's the unlearning, like, what are the patterns in the cultures, you know, whether it's of, you know, what counts as productivity and success, you know, and how we, you know, get focused on certain outcomes versus, you know, what does it mean to learn to create communities where, you know, particularly those who have not been allowed rest in our society are not subjected to more harm. So when they come into our communities that they're not subjected to more harm and just the same patterns and systems that happen outside of our communities. So that's really where the real and it's it's an ongoing process of learning and unlearning that happens through daily practice and that deep listening that we've already talked about. And I guess the other thing I would say is going back to our faith traditions. We've been really moved, like it came through. I mean, we didn't have this client but it came through the process of meeting monthly that really what began to emerge was, what are we holding to? We're so we're so scared to step into the unknown often where it's uncomfortable, but but really risking and trusting the spirit to move forward and having courage to imagine a new and that's I think the best of our faith traditions give us the tools to imagine better worlds and remind us that things are not always what they seem. And so that I think is this beautiful invitation and trusting the wisdom of the body. Yes, the sum of us. That's what that is what I think we continue to come back to again and again is this is not one person or reliant on one person and their knowledge or their action. We do this together and together we know a lot. Thanks. I just want to run through the chat very quickly because what we found is a lot of points that people have found resonance with. We don't we don't often admit but we have levels of preconceived notions we expect certain attitudes and behaviors based on what we've heard or seen so I think it sounds like that reflective work is so important to be more aware of what we've what we've sort of assumed based on our own experience. On conscious bias, lots of books, fierce conversations. There's a question about the source of funding for project curate I think you're the website has kind of your your your major funders listed on that so I don't know if we'll get to that question but I know that project curate has talks about supporters and collaborators. Lots of connectors and connection suggestions in your comment where all can rest and flourish. Let me let me turn to kind of the next question brandy can I ask if you'll start open what does success look like for y'all a project curate. I'm not to backtrack us but I wanted to do, I wanted to roll back on something where you mentioned a bit earlier around the practices right and some of these ancient practices that were available and kind of returning to some practices. What I do think is important to mention is that a lot of the departure from the departure awareness of ancient practices is by way of colonization right and to say for the folks, the people of the global majority is, we may be from these practices due to colonization right and so I think it really is important. So we're thinking about, hey what are these ancient practices that exist. One thing that we do a project curate is of course name and acknowledge the source of the practice right and to acknowledge the fact that this may have existed as an ancient African spiritual practice, this may have existed as a ancient indigenous people's practice. And so I think that's so very important is to not only take right we've seen like taking in the commodification of certain practices and not really honoring the source of the knowledge and I really think that's important to think about how colonization right and the needs to decolonize has affected us all and it's very important so we might be distanced from those things because of colonization so I think that's important so I just wanted to say that because it was hitting me a little bit as I was thinking through that, but success is such an interesting word that that to me really kind of moves into like, you know I got a business background and it takes me back to like strategic plans and our allies and all that other kind of stuff and so it's like, you know, for me what, for me I would say, you know what, the thing that I really look at and measure for for our work is, is how are we moving towards solidarity and practices of solidarity with other peoples, and how are we moving towards liberation that that's really the measures for me it's like, how will, how are the things that we're doing that the work that we're putting out those conversations we're contributing to how are we moving folks towards their own liberation not only individually, but collectively. And so that to me is what a measure if we have to use terminology success would be. Are folks now feeling more liberated in their actions are they feeling more so now that they're more in a lines with their, with their values and with their practices, are they really practicing justice right and moving towards liberation. So for me those are really measures of success and so that shows up in. Now do they have new like you mentioned right do they have new and innovative language that really can describe practices that they've always had but they never knew that's what they were doing. And that to me is a liberating practice like, man, I'm really I'm out here job in it. Job and takes me back real 1970 my bad I know where they came from. Anyway, I'm out here really doing that thing right, and so I think that really to me is a measure of, hey folks now have new knowledge, new consciousness new awareness and not only do they have that knowledge that actually putting that into practice. So we're not just another book study, which is nothing's wrong with a book study, but we're not just a book study or we're not just an opportunity to intellectualize right these these concepts, but actually take these things from head to heart to feet to arms to movement to whatever we're, we're, we're trying to do. Rachel same question to you and again challenging this concept of thank you for again challenging the concept of success that's super super important but I'd love to hear from from you both either both the challenge and how you would also define what it means for project curate to be successful. I think Brandi said so much that was just right on. I think the only thing I would add to that is, we've been really influenced by an amazing writer and activist named Adrian Marie Brown, and I think one of the things that she's written a book called emergent strategy. One of the things that I think she knows she's worked with many organizations and organizers and nonprofits over the years. And one of the things that she really challenges that I think has been so formative for us is, you know, where success is, you know, in movement you know and we can extend that really broadly to just justice and equity work. Because you know she's really calling us to and I think this is what we try to do is to not disregard the small scale and the small changes it's this fractal approach that Brandi mentioned earlier that like in order to see what we want to see on the large scale, we have to be able to practice and sustain it on the small scale, and that the changes they cycle upward. And so I would just say that success isn't you know we're not going to necessarily be able to measure it in huge public policy changes and hope that our work moves people towards showing up in really and creating systemic and structural change, where it really matters. But, you know, really it's about do our organizations look different to our boards look different. Who's in the room, not just who's in the room but whose voice is centered, whose experience and wisdom is recognized and compensated, you know, these are the very practical things that I think that I think really matter and count as success in this work for the long And I wasn't going to ask her to, I wasn't going to call her out but I'm glad she put it in the in the chat. Marjorie Joseph who's the executive director of Houston coalition against hate. Their day of perspective and event that they're hosting is actually going to feature Adrian Murray Brown. So, the the there's a there's a link in the chat box and we'll make sure to send that out I'm really excited about about that event. Let me let me turn to the, to the last question for both of you and brandy let me let me turn back to you. People to and into these vital conversations not just to learn, but what they can do. What, again, what's kind of your your final message. What can people do what kind of spiritual practices are you seeing in the community that foster change. So I'm kind of loading the questions I'll just return. What do you want people to do after they after this concludes brandy please. Yeah, I think. I mean there's a lot that folks can do I think it really does have to. I don't think there's something that I can prescriptively say to you is the one thing that you can go and do I think you, you have to really assess kind of where you are. And really what what you're willing to do and what in some ways what risk you're willing to take as well. And so I could simply say hey go and find out when the next, when the next protest is and go out and do that but that might not be the right action for you right, and we all don't have to have and I say this often you don't have to have a black builder degree and activism 101 and social justice 101 to enact change. You have to look at your own current your own environment and say hey in this current space that I live in and I exist in. What are some ways that I'd like to see transformation happen. What are some ways that I like to see change happen. As it relates to any sort of justice particular orientation as well. So I think it's important for us to begin to look at our own environment our own community, and then also kind of move into, hey who can I enter into relationship with into conversation with that I can gain some wisdom from not so much when I'm coming to, you know, hoard all the resources is the one sided thing, but how can hey, do you have a moment for you to just I just want to learn. Do you have a time anytime to share, it would be my privilege, I'll pay for lunch, I'll give you whatever you know what what is it that we can do right and so I think that really is a critical first step and there's so much so many resources behind it so much that's available to kind of guide and direct and now some sort of ways and I would say we also are a resource as well for folks who wanted to begin to engage in conversations and dialogues around these types of topics to brand brandy before I turn to Rachel I think those are really important and I often think those are overlooked because they're really difficult. After the murder of George Floyd, many people called and said what should I do, who should I can you connect me with with with somebody and how much energy there was and I told people, put yourself a reminder six months from now and see and then do a hard reflection on what you promised, or what you wanted to do. And they're often these big things. And, and, and Adrian Marie's brown notion of kind of fractal change I think is a very, very, very important one for people to consider because it's substantive. It's doable, but it's also very difficult because in some ways, going out and doing trying to figure out the big thing to do is is is sometimes is easy. It's an easy move that then doesn't happen so I very much thank you for for for that. Rachel, how about you kind of what's what's your last takeaway for from our time together. Well, I think I always talk about brandy talks about this as well and you know what is the, but actually, I was first introduced to this phrase by a black South African woman who was facilitating conversation on diversity social justice and equity but what is the best best elegant stuff. What is the neck like, you know, I think I really just always invite people to really consider where they're at and what that next step is, and you know, there's so many resources available to educate yourself. So if that's the next step, commit to it, you know, and don't necessarily look for, you know, like, you can do that at any time and any place, but also pushing beyond just another book study, which again there's nothing wrong with book studies but what does it mean to be in a can you find a communal space where you can be, can you begin to develop that deep reflection space for deep reflection and conversations but also accountability for taking action. And then the last thing I would say is just a plot I'm going to put my email in the chat, because we're about to embark on our second cohort for the building transformative congregational leaders program so if you think that will will be running for over the next four years. So if you think that that might be something that you and your community could benefit and we have a broad definition, you know, of congregations. Please, please send me an email. So that's a short plug but I just, that's something practical to if you really want to take the next step in your faith community. Yeah. If you're not on the zoom, you can also go to our website and be the contact us little option there as well, and you can send an email that way to if you go to project curate that work. And we're, I mean, again, not to plug us too much but we're also available for individualized work with organizations, and we do consulting so you know any of this is feature interest I do want to offer us as a resource. I'm pleased for you to give the long plug not just the short plug and and that's, that's intentional. Our vital conversations are designed to be with vital organizations doing vital work that I think people need to know about and we feel our strong partners and collaborators in the community so I'm, I try to plug project curate as often as I can because I know how important your work is but I also know that you're not territorial about the space as well that you're seeking to collaborate because because it's not a zero sum game. And so, again, there's other are a lot of very your comments that you've added in the in the chat as as kind of highlights as well as people who have I think very much resonated with with what you have what with what you are doing. In the middle of time we're coming up on 1257 or so let me see if there any there's again a variety of thanks that are starting to come in. Greg real quick thank you I've got to go to another meeting, but this was awesome I knew it would be. And I look forward to how we can engage with you guys in the future. Thank you so much. Thank you. I did see I don't want I do have time for one question Vaskola Stoney who is also part of some of our in our interfaith work. I'm going to go ahead and unmute and ask your question I see your hand up. Right and it's not thank you it's and thank you brandy and Rachel for I mean such an engaging and knowledgeable conversation I've learned so much and it's amazing what we thought we knew. And then we are we open our ears so we can hear, then we can hear more, but I think as just something that might give us awesome comfort I think of a puzzle, and, and putting the pieces of a puzzle together. We build the edges first, that is the foundation, and then we put the pieces, we start to put the pieces in the middle and I think the foundation process is trust and relationship. And if you have that, then those pieces because if you leave the edges open something can slip through but when you build that relationship and you, and you build that trust, then all the other pieces that come in. It's easier for them to find their place and so that's just, you know, one of the things that just comes to mind because when we talk about this issue has so many different pieces. The more we talk, the more we find out that this needs to happen and that thing needs to happen and we have our own personal things and then there's fun just so many different pieces to this puzzle if you go, but it's a beautiful puzzle brandy when you talk about prophetic imagination when you see it. It's beautiful and it's as as the way God sees it the way he intended for it to be that we all live together as in harmony as one and so that this to just kind of help us understand. It's not an easy thing to do but when we are determined to do it for the good of the people of the kingdom then it can it can be done so thank you. Brandy Holmes, Rachel Schneider project curate. Thank you so much for your for your time. Again, I invite you all to visit project curate.org Rachel put her information in the email and in the chat box as well and we'll follow up with it with an email as well. We just have a couple of final notes we hope to see you for our October vital conversation with refugee refugee services on October the seventh focusing on the concept of welcoming the stranger. But before then we hope you can join us for a set of workshops we call dialogue workshops that I think aligns well with what with what project curate does as well and I've dropped the link in the chat box. In the piece across the United States we find ourselves in a time in which we have the inability to talk about divisive issues on to help faith communities interfaith ministries as partnered with braver angels which is a national nonpartisan organization. We've got dialogue workshops coming up on September 28 and November the ninth and these these workshops foster understanding of other perspectives not by changing anyone's minds but rather by advancing skills for listening and discourse. We'll follow up with information as well but we invite you to visit IMGH org and click on our dialogue workshops link to learn more. Again, thank you all for joining us today you can learn more about project curate at project curate.org you can learn more about us at IMGH org to learn about interfaiths work how to support us how to support and get involved with us and again wonderful organizations like project curate Thank you again the Cisco petroleum corporation for sponsoring this episode and the series. Rachel and brandy again thank you so much for your time thank you everyone for your time, and we'll see you next time for our vital conversation. Bye everybody.