 Great. Hello, everyone. And welcome to Hyperledger's webinar on examining blockchain's transformative role, transformative sorry, role in digitizing trade and trade finance. This is Hyperledger's fifth anniversary, we started with a simple announcement on December 17 2015 about this exciting new project, our first software delivery happened in February of the following year. And for the last five years, we've really developed Hyperledger into this amazing, not only portfolio and family of category leading software technologies, but a community of practitioners who are applying blockchain technology to all sorts of domains from trade finance, which has really been become the linchpin use case to digital identity to supply chain traceability to I also to integration with legal systems and all sorts of regulatory kinds of environments. But I'm really excited about the role that trade finance has played trade finance is one of those spaces that is international by default by nature. It is one that has resisted digitization for so long, and blockchain technology really has a unique role in helping automate so much of it and so much power I think and it's where we've seen so many companies and deployments of this actually start to create real and tremendous value using this technology. So, I'm really excited to hear this panel I'd like to now hand it off to Julian Gordon who's Hyperledger's Vice President for the Asia Pacific region to introduce and moderate the panel. Julian. Thank you Brian that was a great introduction and yeah very exciting this a fifth anniversary. So, I'm delighted to be here today, and we have such an amazing panel. And we're going to discuss one of the world's most pressing challenges and opportunities. So what is that that's how do we as individuals, companies and governments realize the full benefits of digital trade and trade finance for everyone everywhere. And the key role that blockchain and Hyperledger are playing in this. As most of you know, the Hyperledger, we are an open source nonprofit blockchain project hosted by Linux Foundation. And through our open source open governance approach, the Hyperledger community has created a number of leading blockchain code bases, which are widely used across industries. And as Brian said, for trade finance, we've had a lot of activity and many of our projects have been, I think, pretty impactful in creating these these these networks. We have Hyperledger Fabric, Hyperledger Indy, so identity and Hyperledger Bezzi for Ethereum. So much has been achieved in these five years, but I said we're going to hear today, there's still much to do, still much to do. So today, you will hear from this panel, we're going to split into kind of three ways we'll talk about the vision of Hyperledger and others have the blockchain in trade and trade finance. Secondly, you know, where are we today from, you know, many different perspectives, and then how we, and by we I also mean you can realize this vision are called to action. So I'm now going to hand over not much to do to the panelists so they can introduce themselves and I think we're going to start with Emmanuel Gan. Thanks Julian and delighted to be here. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Good night, depending on where you are. So my name is Emmanuel Gan. I'm a senior analyst in the economic research and statistics division of the World Trade Organization based in Geneva. And I lead work on digital technologies in particular blockchain and small and medium sized enterprises. And as I put on my LinkedIn profile, I'm a blockchain enthusiast. I truly believe that blockchain can have a big impact on international trade can be transformative or international trade. But I'm also a blockchain realist. I do know that it's not a magical wind, and that if we want this technology to truly have a transformative transformational impact on trade, we need more than the technology. This is actually what I explained in a book that I published in 2018 in which is entitled Can Blockchain Revolutionized International Trade that was to sensitize trade officials to the potential of the technology and I'll stop there. Thanks Julian. Okay, I was wrong. Hi everyone, and thanks again for inviting me. My name is Oswald Taylor. I am the managing director of the digital standards initiative at the International Chamber of Commerce. So the International Chamber of Commerce is the institutional representative of over 45 million companies globally, so across different industries and truly global in nature by being represented in over 100 countries. I'm very, very much looking forward to this panel because as a part of the work that I'm doing with trying to see how do we further accelerate the adoption of digitization, especially in trade. And I met Julian from Hyperledia about four years ago when I actually started my journey on having conversations around how do we digitize trade so it almost feels like a full circle Julian. Thank you. All right. Thank you Oswald and Mark. Yeah, hi Julian. Thank you and hyperledger happening today. I am honored to be on such a great panel. You know I'm the CTO of WeTrade. I lead the product and technology teams within WeTrade. Our trade finance platform is built on hyperledger fabric and we've been working with the hyperledger community for over three years now. And we actively participate in the community. For example, we're active members of the trade finance special interest group. We've been participating in member summits, you know, organizing member summits. So really delighted to be here on such a great panel. Looking forward to the discussion. And thanks. Thanks Mark and Palm. Hello everybody and yeah, thank you for having us today on this panel discussion. Looking forward to the debate. I'm Palm Seiner. I'm globally responsible for blockchain networks involved in trade and trade finance. I'm also a member of the International Chamber of Commerce's digital working group looking at trade finance digitization. And yeah, I got involved with the hyperledger forums and the special interest groups back in late 2016, early 2017, when we were looking at designing and deploying into production one of the first trade finance networks around the world. And certainly the governance that hyperledger has in its openness was needed when we were looking at the non functional requirements of deploying into production. And certainly the hyperledger project on this initiative is valuable to us in the way that it works. So looking forward to the debate. Thank you. Thank you, Palm. And at all. I'm the co-founder of DLT ledger, a Singaporean startup. And to be honest, got realized with hyperledger being a core of it in 2016. The first company in Singapore, after one or three authoritative Singapore to sign up for hyperledger and focus on trade and trade finance digitization. We have been really, you know, we are grateful to hyperledger because without hyperledger, we would not have DLT ledger as a company. So that shows what you've done for the last four years to us. And looking forward to this exciting. Okay, great. What a great panel, right? So we have a wide spectrum of great experiences. So I'm going to start off with, you know, why? So we talked about, we talked about this in our prep, right? What was the vision for five years ago? Why blockchain and trade, trade finance? So I couldn't think better people to ask here. I think we're going to start on the broader spectrum. We talked about Emmanuel, maybe you start with your, your, your higher perspective of trade, trade finance and blockchain and digitization as a whole. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yes. Well, as we all know, trade is very labor, paper intensive. There are multiple actors, multiple documents for a single letter of credit transaction. There are 20 players on average, 10 to 20 documents, 5,000 data fields interaction, but only 1% of these 5,000 data fields interaction creates value. So trade and trade finance are full of frictions, full of inefficiencies. There are 4 billion paper documents generated as a result of trade activities. And studies have actually shown that the cost of handling the paper can be higher than the cost of moving a container from Ambassador Rotterdam. And I could go on like this. So we can certainly do better. And this is where blockchain comes in. Blockchain is, in my view, very interesting for a number of different reasons. First, why? Because it creates trust. What you see is what I see. And so I have the guarantee that you've not played with the data. And this is critical for trade because trade is built on trust. You need to trust your suppliers and the companies you deal with. And this is particularly important in the digital age, as supply chains are becoming increasingly digital, organizations need to ensure that they're dealing with the right entity. And because of this trust, it allows people to interact on a peer-to-peer basis without intermediaries, and so it can break silos. And we all know that trade is full of silos. You have the exporter, you have the importer, you have the shippers, you have customs, and they all work in silos. But with blockchain, you can bring all these different actors on a single platform. And I'm sure that we'll hear from my different co-panelists, Parm, Mark, Attu, regarding what they've been doing in that area. And third, blockchain is very interesting because it helps to solve the double-spending problem. And this is critical when it comes to international trade because you don't want to bill of lading, which is a document of title, a document that proves ownership of the goods to be copied. If you can simply scan it, and this is likely to happen, then you have a big problem. And we saw recent fraud scandals in the commodity sector in Singapore that shows how critical it is to ensure that there's no double-spending. And so blockchain can help solve this issue. And I think that's why we've seen so many projects emerge in the trade sphere and in the trade finance sphere. And frankly, I think trade finance is probably one of the most compelling use cases for the use of blockchain when it comes to trade. But we've seen projects emerge in transportation, logistics, province, supply chain. And here again, I'm sure that Mark, Parm and Attu will refer to these projects. So maybe to summarize, what I said in a recent interview is that I think DLT could bring global trade from the labour intensive steam train age into the magnetic levitation train age, the maglab that is being developed now and that moves at high speed without friction. So full of potential. But a lot of things to be done in order to make it happen. All right. Good thing we've got a few people who are working on the maglab stuff, right? So Elon Musk's of their world. So we have, we have, I think, Mark and Attu and Parm, do you want to talk about your vision? You work predominantly with platforms. So Mark, do you want to talk about what we trade, one of the first and biggest of these platforms and what you're doing now? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I can. Yeah, so effectively, we trade is a very simple motto. It's effectively more trade, more trust. And I think, you know, as we all know, I mean, one of the biggest pillars of blockchain and enterprise blockchain has been the trusted trade. I mean, it's been able to where, you know, parties are brought onto a network that are validated and people can actually trade with reduced risks. And, you know, trade with, you know, reduced fraud trade with, you know, with parties who they may have never traded with before. So therefore, you know, they might be apprehensive about, you know, engaging in new trade. But, you know, being part of, you know, a platform such as WeTrade, people can onboard onto a new platform and can engage in trade with new trading partners, which is great for business because it helps grow their business. So from a technology perspective, we, you know, we have a platform, we bring buyers and sellers, you know, traders, whether they're estimate to large corks, and they can trade with one another based on the settlement conditions of smart contracts. Based on a platform that offers a rulebook that governs the behavior of all of the participants on the network. It is the platform that actually brings the banks together, so the banks, you know, and the traders, so that they can effectively offer services such as, you know, payment services, payment services to their customers. So it actually, it opens up cash flow and liquidity and lending opportunities to companies that, you know, I'm given today, I mean, we're in COVID time. You know, that may be struggling with cash flow. So this is the benefit of what we can do on the WeTrade platform, but also leveraging by leveraging technologies such as Hyperledger. We do leverage many, many features in Hyperledger Fabric, and we're built mainly on Hyperledger Fabric, such as the DLT, we use the channels, and we use private data collection because privacy and making information and data available to only those who need the information is key. The information is not proliferated around the whole network for everybody to see. So we do respect, you know, the privacy of the traders, we respect the privacy of the banks, and we respect the privacy of all participants on the network, and we only need to share what we need to share as the basis of a trade. We are really talking about digitizing, optimizing, and really, you know, making trade more efficient than it is today because they're still inefficiencies, as Emmanuel has highlighted, there are still, we're on a journey. We are five years in with, you know, with digitizing trade today from an optimization perspective, you know, being able to bring these parties together. Our goal is to, you know, to further expand in the digitization opportunities for all of the participants. We were connecting all of the participants to end to end flow. So today, from a we trade perspective, we have banks, SMEs, large corpse, we are looking at already looking and heavily engaging in logistics, insurance, and many, many other areas. We are able to do this all on our own. So we'll know that at some stage we will have to, and we are already engaging with, you know, other networks and trying to connect these networks and we'll come to that later. I think the biggest part of the challenges that we've had to overcome have been like, you know, like getting a system like we trade live in production in a heavily regulated, heavily regulated industry. I think it's been probably one of our biggest hurdles to date. You know, and I think that shouldn't be overlooked. I think that, you know, and I think it's great that now that we have, you know, World Trade Organization, ICC, and many, many other, you know, either local regulators, you know, they're becoming more aware of what the technology can do. I think we think that, okay, I know Emmanuel has said like we want to be the maglev. I don't think we're running at the speed of a maglev yet. We're kind of, but we're getting faster as the technology matures through the years. So, Atul, you want to share some perspectives. Absolutely. Thank you, Mark. And I think my colleagues have actually shared why it is important. So I want to just give a couple of more data points to say, if there is a way to put this into the business use case and put that into the context of the trade. There are 700,000 class A traders in the world. Right. So, and those people initiate and execute the trade and, you know, like Emmanuel mentioned, inefficiencies contributes to about 20% of that cost in running the execution of trade. So I think the business case about why distributed ledgers should be used in managing this process and hopefully get part of the 20% back into the value chain is kind of table state, right. I think what needs to happen and what has been sort of in the early years of the hyperlature journey, it kind of finding where to start the journey has been a very important and we have been always focused on the customer, and trying to help initiate and execute those flows and getting a model in place where you know that could happen, not for all flows, but for some flows, and trying to figure that out so that they actually get the business benefit to really kind of go along with this whole exciting technology journey. And finally, I explained blockchain to someone who is in trade is it very simply, I could now authenticate your document and I and and basically present that back to you. Now that document could be just a simple contract or that document could be the bill of lighting, but that's something that I can do it in the privacy that you prefer in the privacy that you think is acceptable in your private network. So I think trade and trade finance. Obviously, you know, we are, you know, we are based out of the trade capital of the world, you know, one of the biggest trade, you know, flow happens out of Singapore to me and also while it's also here because we're building also next generation of diesel standards, Singapore government has been very focused on this so certainly this is an area where there was no other technology that could have actually fix this inefficiency problem so I think the why parties is is a slam dunk. Yeah, no thank you Julian, I was going to say ditto, but I thought a bit I had a little bit more. So, if we take if we take it on two strands or two streams first of all global trade is growing. And then also the trade finance gap is also growing. So if we take the trade finance gap first that's growing, as Emmanuel said the frictions and the costs are very very high and the risks are very high so cost and risk are the main challenges. When it comes to trade financing. And that's why when we look at some of the OECD statistics, the growth engine of the economy. We are the small media enterprises, and they're getting a 50 to 60% rejection rate on their access or applications for working capital solutions. So, from a bank's point of view the cost of risk is too high a fall ability then is much lower for the SMEs. And that's where, from a process point of view, within the trade finance from the banks to its clients and then the ecosystem. Then blockchain does bring in trust because that's the major hurdle for the reasons why there's so many people so many so much paperwork in all of those processes and those workflows. So when you're following the data with regards to a typical transaction for trade finance. It's hide high high cost, high risk, high administration, many silos, lots of handshakes of the data going from one party to another. Blockchain simplifies and decentralizes it. As Mark said, smart contracts, consensus mechanisms. The security by which the data is being shared. The private permissions as Emmanuel said, I see what you see what we need to see only, even though the supply chain participants could be so broad. So from a trade finance point of view, blockchain is beginning to play a role in allowing banks to service a market segment that they couldn't afford to before because of the risks involved. And then how that capital was being treated by the banks under the regulations, and then was it a profitable business for them to, to, to service that market. So from a trade finance perspective, blockchain absolutely playing a role and we're seeing live systems and platforms in production. Then from a global trade point of view, because finance is just one pillar. Then it's the movement of the goods and the movements of the documents, as well as the movement of the funds. And again, those individual areas are all fraught with inefficiencies and silos and frictions. And again, many people, many processes and much paperwork in moving those goods ultimately between the buyer and the seller. And what we are seeing is because of the private permissioned way of sharing data, and the fact that your supply chain is global, then sort of by design now we're actually seeing more platforms being established in the logistics side of things in the movement of goods by containers as a good example of that and the partnership with mass. And then also the movement on and the provenance and the supply chain visibility of those goods as they actually are being shipped. So, again, IBM Food Trust is a good example to use their ever ledger is another good example from a provenance of goods in the supply chain. So we're seeing trade grow. We're seeing the trade finance gap grow. We're now seeing how blockchain can help trade finance gap be reduced, get greater try transparency in the trade market and the segment place, which then will bring down the cost. So if you can get the cost of trading down, then the likelihood of trade growth is higher. And then that then starts lending itself to GDP growth, which in light of the corona and the COVID situation we're in, we need those costs to come down quickly. So blockchain, hyper ledger, great contributions to trade and trade finance. Thank you, Palm. And I think now that that's a great overview. Thank you everybody there. I think what we discussed now is we're going to look at where, where we are today. So, you know, we had the vision, five years in this journey, a long time in maybe a short time in trade, we actually decided right in a long time. So where are we at today. So what we're going to do is going to share a slide here. And Emmanuel is going to take us through her perspective of where we see us today right. So I'm going to bring this slide up. Yeah, that's on the slide. Yeah, so just to start. So last year, I published with a deep page Patel of trends global and a periodic table of DLT projects in trade and trade finance. We thought that it would be useful to get a sense of the different projects that were out there because we saw projects popping up continuously. And things are evolving so fast that we decided to update this table this year. And so this is what you have on the slide here. You see the 2019 table in the left corner at the bottom. And then the revised updated table that we published a couple of weeks ago, sorry, at the Hong Kong Tech Week. So what what did we find. First, we found that the number of DLT projects in trade and trade finance has increased significantly from 29 last year excluding supply chain finance to 44 this year. And we actually decided not to feature specific supply chain finance project this year, because it's because it's really fast increasing. And so it makes it difficult to provide a comprehensive and up to date picture. What we see as well is that most of the projects have progressed with given maturity stage of the different projects and what we see is that the industry has made steady progress towards digitalization with the average project moving from a maturity maturity stage of 2.3 in 2019 to 3.3 in 2020, where one represents the proof of concept stage and five represents live and running well established. But so what does this show us. It actually shows us that we have a digital island problem and that this problem is not getting smaller. It's getting bigger. We have many platforms out there and that predict table covers not only trade finance but also transportation logistics and digitalization of trade documents insurance. But I think the message is there that what is critical if we want to remove frictions from international trade and the inefficiencies that were mentioned earlier is that we connect the dots. So we need to work together to connect these different platforms to allow for seamless changes of data and that means working at a technical level to allow for technical interoperability because these different platforms that you can see it's a bit small but we've put the underlying technology and these platforms are built on different technologies on some on hyperledger fabric, others on other DLTs and so these causes a problem of technical interoperability but we also need to work at the level of data models to allow for seamless exchanges of data. Now there are already some data models and but they are either very specific like customs for example or for specific documents with sometimes multiple standards if you look at invoices I mean there are more than 30 standards out there. So we need to develop these global standards and for these standards to succeed it's critical that they have visibility and that they have traction that they be accepted by critical mass. And third, we also need to work at the regulatory level and I think we'll discuss it a bit later. But we need to create an enabling regulatory framework. Mark of Woodard Trade mentioned the importance of that regulatory framework and he mentioned that it was actually one of the key challenges that they faced when they were entering into production. So I think what is critical is that we think in terms of the entire chain and twin solutions, it's a chain thinking spirit, we have to involve all the different actors. And what our study shows is that when it comes to digitalization actually customs developments for example or trailing, which is a big problem, because in international trade goods cross borders. So customs are a key element of the chain of the international trade chain. So we need to develop these end to end solutions and for these I think it's very important that we all work together. And the longer we wait, the more difficult it will be so it's very important that we do this now, otherwise this digital island problem is going to continue to grow. You are mute, Julian. Yes. Yes, I'm on mute and yes to you. Thank you for that. So definitely, you know, so to palm, do you want to share your slides. And yeah, we have these digital islands that we have to work together. I think that's that's a key thing that we're going to get to right. So I think the study that Emmanuel and Depeche commissioned, I think gives you a great insight to where we are today, and the fact that people are using and organizations are using blockchain to get those efficiency gains, and then to connect the end to those workflows a little bit tighter together so where there's less friction in the process. What we also did, which we'll just quickly share with you now is also a global study as to where organizations were, and it really does concur with what Emmanuel sharing with her study. But we'll also share with you where do people want to go where do organizations want to go, and how do they think they can get there to this end to end digitization of trade and trade finance. So we conducted this study with our colleagues at the Institute of Business Value quick shout out to Mina and the Smith and Vina. And basically there were three chapters to the study. First of all, and this is endorsed by Emmanuel, your study is when you looked at the platforms that Emmanuel captured in the periodic table, what you have there are consortium their companies that came together to create a platform on the market capability for either their vertical industry or for their supply chain. And what we found within our study is that 69% of all companies that were serving and this was a global study 22 industries 34 countries and 1000 C Swedish executives. The same thing isn't this is confirmed by manual study also is 69% have actually had a mindset change as to how do they want to operate in the economy that they're operating in today so they're all involved with the other manufacturer the shipping, the financial services institution or the originators of the goods being bought and sold 69% now want to work together, and they want to work together by opening up their workflows, where the data is probing process for that trade and the trade finance transaction, and they want to work more collaboratively because 69% say actually there is value with blockchain in making ourselves more efficient. And why they do that is because they're all in pursuit of what we call the network effect, and the network effect best demonstrated by Uber, which entered into a marketplace which was a taxi marketplace which is worth 5 billion. Now, Uber has evaluation of $8090 billion. Why is because they created a platform where they were able to bring suppliers and like taxis, and then the more taxis that came into the platform, the more passengers and buyers came onto that platform. And then, you know, the motivation was there for the, the passenger because it was a less of a wait time, and then same for the supplier, they could come onto the platform because they didn't have much downtime in between fares, and that then grew that marketplace and that's the network effect. So getting more buyers and supplies to come together with a natural incentive has to be by design then built into the platforms that companies operate to process their data for that workflow in the exchange of value when you're looking at trade finance or trade. Chapter one also showed us that there's emerging use cases and again Emmanuel study captured that there's a clearly existing platforms and use cases where there's patterns of adoption whether it's logistics supply chain visibility trade finance, as we mentioned before, and that 41% are seeing a return. So where we are today, people are seeing the value, they're getting returns, and the mindset has changed. The mindset to change in chapter two then comes down to working more collaboratively for the network effect is to share data. And how can you share data in a trusted way 75 more than 75% wanted to share data. Throughout the workflow from their company throughout the supply chain up and downstream but less than 50% actually trusted the sharing of that data. Hence the use of blockchain, because if you can get that trust in the sharing of data in that workflow that's been digitized across your supply chain. Then what we were finding was that the study was telling us is that if you can get the trust in the processes that actually know if you can then also maybe get the trust in the asset that's been traded or the products that being bought and sold. And what about digitizing that also, and then moving off into the tokenization of that asset. And as Mark mentioned earlier on about introducing more liquidity into your platform. And digitizing the asset also introduces more liquidity provides more opportunity for trade finance providers to offer solutions, and also gives more opportunity for trade to be more liquid to then have more opportunity for growth. And then the study also confirmed that if that sharing of data could be done in a trusted way, and maybe start digitizing the assets being bought and sold via some method of tokenization. I could expect a one to 10% growth in GDP. So interesting in as far as where organizations are today, where they want to go and why they want to go there. However, now there's the challenge is how, where do I actually operate, where do I go to allow for a degree of interconnectedness where interoperability has been mentioned. Why traverse one platform on one technology and again as Emmanuel's periodic table shows, there's lots of underlying technology platforms that then are moving data, and they all have their own way of moving that data. How do you hop from one trusted platform to another trusted platform in a trusted way. And that's where again the study showed us that organizations are expecting no one technology or platform to rule the world, you're going to live in a hybrid environment, and the study showed that 85% expect to be working with more than three or at least three blockchain technologies, running across a variety of cloud infrastructures, because this is more of a cloud based platform, even though some countries and some companies want the services on prem. So by design, building in open hybrid environments, making sure that you can orchestrate your workload across different environments, and then ensuring that you can then have that movement of data done in a trusted way is a key part. And also the study said to us, why do we have to choose why do organizations have to choose one trade finance provider versus another or one KYC know your customer service versus another or one digital ID service versus another can't we go somewhere where there's a common standard where we consume it in a common way, because it saves the duplication of cost and then the gluing that needs to happen afterwards. And again, the chapter in chapter three, the study was telling us this notion of where can we go and have this natural incentive, which is neutral and open governance very much like hyper ledger, in the way that it manages open source code, where can we go and start trading with less friction and a platform and a venue that has more trust. So we got a very clear insight as to where organizations want to go now that they're beginning to master what blockchain value can bring and that is take the value and the benefit of digitizing your processes with blockchain get the cost savings, but then start looking at growing your business and grow with the network effect, not just your market share, but also the size of the market. So, Julian that was the kind of findings we found as to where the direction was in compliment to what Emmanuel shared with her survey as well. That's great and very, very interesting. The network effect, I mean, one to 10% GDP growth is significant, right? So, very, very, very exciting stuff. So from now, let's take a step and look at the technology. So maybe we have a CTO mark. So what's your perspective of where we are today in terms of the technology and we looked at things like the probability, etc. Yeah. Yeah, so where we are today. I mean, look, you know, as both Emmanuel and Perm have already kind of stated, I mean, look, there are a number of systems that are live and in production. So we're no longer at the, you know, for those systems that are live, like we tried, for example, you know, and DLT ledgers, I mean, it's we're no longer just trying to see what we can do with the technology. We are actually already able to realize and deliver value to our customers. You know, and that's, you know, and to do so in a heavily, heavily regulated industry has been challenging as I've alluded to earlier, but I mean, we have actually come through quite a lot of those, you know, those challenges to be live in the countries that, you know, respectively, we are live in. The technology is still maturing, to be honest. I mean, yes, there are like, you know, with Hyperledger, for example, open source, open governance, new features, requests, new capabilities are always in development. So I mean, you know, and as the technology matures, it will open up new business models, new revenue models, new ways of doing things. And even, you know, from a technology perspective, optimizing on how we actually develop our platforms and our solutions. So we're always going to be, you know, continually looking at what are the new features and functions and capabilities of blockchain and, you know, what, you know, what we can, excuse me, what we can actually get from cloud services and even our process on how we deliver our services into production. What we're trying to do, really what we're trying to do is using the technology to simplify, digitize and optimize many, the efforts of all of the participants in the network or on the platform. At first, we were trying to, you know, as we trade was going live, I mean, effectively, we were trying to, we spend a lot of our time educating people about blockchain, enterprise blockchain, what is DLT, what do we mean by permissions and networks, you know, because they're all such new technologies and, you know, and to be honest, when we're introducing such new technologies, you know, people are not always, they're not so comfortable in embracing new technologies, especially something so, so alien to them because just before organizations are used to developing projects and solutions within their own walls, blockchain opens it up, you're no longer waiting only within your wall, you are actually becoming part or joining a network and in some cases, you know, the actual operations, the development, you know, the evolution of that platform, you've delegated, or depending on how you've actually, you know, how you're procuring your blockchain services, you've delegated that to somebody else, so that then you actually don't even need to build up a trust between a supplier and a provider, or a consumer of those services, you know, so, and then, you know, I mean, a lot of people, I mean, we were, you know, having to educate a lot of people on what we mean by consensus algorithms and like, you know, you know, we're having to, to be honest, we have to break the myth of, oh, blockchain cryptocurrency, we have to dispel that myth, you know, and these are the challenges that we've had to overcome, I'd say for the last two or three years. And we're still very much, I would say, you know, in the infancy of our journey to get to be that maglev, you know, that's literally, you know, creating frictionless traders as Emmanuel has stated earlier. You know, but again, it's not just blockchain that we don't just develop blockchain and we're not like, you know, and yes, okay, we do come along and say, okay, we trade, we're built on hyperledger fabric and so that's part of the story. We've had other challenges in terms of, as Parm has said earlier on, I mean, you know, some banks or some customers, they're putting on their premise still, so they still want to participate in a network that's kind of open and you know, kind of having a lot of other participants from around the world on there, but they still want to do so and manage it and control it within their own premise. So it comes with challenges, it comes with operational challenges, it comes with governance challenges about how do you actually, you know, allow somebody to connect to an open network, what you know, while you know, you're trying to do releases on, you know, smart contract releases updates and what have you to keep make sure that everybody's operating on the under the same rules within the within the network. So, I mean, for us, I mean also we've had challenges in relation to the adoption of cloud services. So, you know, we weren't just trying to tackle one problem which is, oh, here's blockchain, here's what blockchain can do, you know, you know, and educating people in blockchain, we have to say, some customers literally had zero cloud strategy before, you know, coming, you know, before we start engaging with them. So to bring them on board in terms of it's not just blockchain that you need to be aware of, it's cloud services, it's, you know, going from, you know, a release every six months and, you know, to a release every three weeks or two weeks or whatever. So DevOps and CI CDs and literally making sure to, you know, doing, you know, agile going from waterfall to agile, a lot of different areas and challenges that we needed to overcome. And it wasn't just blockchain. And I think this is where, you know, a lot of people kind of will feel today that blockchain has, you know, is either still hasn't fulfilled its, you know, its goal. In some cases, some people, and I would say that the naysayers are saying that blockchain is still slow, you know, or we're in the, you know, the trot of disillusionment, whatever, I think a lot of us are coming out of that trot of disillusionment because we have platforms that are live and in production and are realizing value to the customers. But we're not at the end yet. We have more and more challenges to overcome. I mean, you know, as we see as we as we engage with, you know, other parties and other customers in, you know, other jurisdictions than where we currently are. There's more. I mean, we thought we were finished with local regulations and local regulators regarding, you know, rules and how they actually, you know, participate in a blockchain network. We haven't. I mean, we still engage with, you know, in new markets where, again, some of the challenges are the same, and some of them are absolutely brand new. You know, so I think until we kind of really kind of work on the, on the together, you know, with all of the different blockchain technologies or all of the different blockchain platforms, you know, we're all facing the same challenges. So I think they're, you know, as we kind of work towards the standardizations and the interoperability. So I think that'll actually help, you know, alleviate some of the issues that would that we have. We do see that, you know, that the blockchain platforms are delivering, you know, we're evolving to deliver and, you know, and to realize more value added services to all of the participants as the technology as blockchain becomes ubiquitous, becomes a little bit more known and becomes, you know, it really does become that trusted technology because we spend a lot of time in actually ensuring that people understand. You know, the actual, you know, the technology, the underlying technology, you know, differentiating it from cryptocurrency and the whole lot, but under understanding the whole, you know, the underlying technology so that, you know, as new entities, you know, look to on board, you know, the approval process are less painful because they also have become more aware of the technology. We've seen that governance has been an interesting topic, like, you know, effectively, you know, whether we're, you know, how we actually govern the network, how we actually govern, how participants actually participate on the network. And, you know, and, you know, and it still is, you know, very much, you know, a challenge, you know, you are always going to be tweaking the governance to make sure that, you know, you know, are we, are we effective in the right areas and other areas where we need improvements. So, and we see through, you know, to our engagement with our customers that, you know, we continue to learn from our customers. And, you know, we take those learnings and we apply them then to our next set of customers so that, you know, it really just kind of eases the pain. There are many blockchain, I mean, with manuals, periodic table of blockchain solutions, and especially in trade finance, there are a lot of blockchain solutions. So, you know, some of them in production, some of them going live, some on the verge of going live. And to be honest, there'll probably be more that are still not on that periodic table, but will come in the future, you know. So, it's going to be an ever evolving space. We've already said that we trade, we know that we're not going to be the only blockchain network to rule the world. So, I mean, we have, we have a strategy of, you know, creating, you know, stack instances around the world. And by doing that, then we'll need to be able to connect those stacks, both connect the we trade stack to another we trade stack, or effectively connect a we trade to a non we trade network. You know, so this is where we're kind of looking towards the whole standardization and interoperability and interconnectivity between these networks to make sure then that, you know, that we can fulfill the vision. I don't want to say the vision of frictionless trade for all participants, and that, you know, participants don't need to actually know, okay, well, I need to engage in trade in this country. Oh, I need to be part of this network. Oh, I need to engage in a trade in another country. Oh, well, I need to be part of this. That confuses the story, it confuses the message. And it really means if that is the case, then we've actually done something wrong. So I think, you know, it's great, you know, and this is where I think the hyperledger community really helps, you know, to have, you know, the likes of, you know, we trade and DLT ledgers and many other participants on, you know, as part of the community as part of the special interest groups. And we're already talking about these challenges. And yes, we engage with with IBM on various other things about, you know, you know, in, you know, because effectively they're our delivery partner. So we like, you know, with them, we actually are able to realize what we can realize, you know, what we have realized to date in terms of getting to production and delivering our platform. But also we engage with them very, very closely in terms of what we want, you know, what we want to see and with the hyperledger community in terms of what we want to see in terms of features and functions in fabric. Because as I said earlier, the technology is still maturing. And we have a lot of road to go on this. Sorry. With that, Mark, I was going to say is that knowing that there's lots of lessons learned and there's that direction. I guess Oswald, you may have some thoughts as to that sort of guy with some guide rails in place. And I must agree with everything Emmanuel and POM that you've shown in your studies. I'll keep it brief. Just for the sake of time, standardization is really something that's going to help us move the needle. Move us from single digit performance when it actually comes to the adoption of these technologies to something that has scale. And so standards play a big part in this because it enables us to share what good looks like. So I think in short, what I might do, Julian, is just give everyone a high level view of what's happening in the standard space today. That's quite supportive of the work that Emmanuel and them have done at the World Trade Organization. I viewed in three different levels. At the highest level, I look at how do we ensure that we have standardization for truly those unique elements that are required regardless of use case. And so as an example, we think about item like identity, identity of things and identity of organizations. And I think it's really good for us to note that we don't need a start from scratch in this space. There's already standards out there that everyone can actually leverage. So when you think about standards, the one thing is creating a group of people to try and create new ones. But the other part is potentially looking at what's out there and actually adopting standards like Goliath or GS1 and the solutions that you're producing. The second one I would highlight is when we think about that, you know, supply chain process or trade process itself, Emmanuel spoke about all the various different documents that's found in there. And so we do need to figure out how do we standardize an electronic bill of lading, warehouse receipts and stock, removing friction so that our SMEs can pick the platform that they want to use and not have to sign up to five or six and execute their business processes. And again, the good news is there's a lot of great work that is already happening. From we've seen the DCSA releasing an eBall standard, FIATAs working on an eBall standard. So again, how do we ensure as we're approaching these solutions or executives are approaching solutions that they want to join on, that we're future-proofing them by instead of starting from zero, starting from a position of acceleration. And the final one that I would mention is exactly what everyone, yeah, and I think Hyperledger is a leader really in the space, is how do we work on the technical standards required for us to have these systems talk to each other without having to execute an R&D project every single time to do so. And so that's the final one. And I think the only thing I would tell people is there's already a lot of work being done, whether it's ISOs, TC307, join in, participate, and more than participate in creating standards, adopt it and help us move this forward. So, Julian, that's my thoughts on it. So I think we're going to cut to where we are today. We're going to talk a little bit about regulatory, but I think we're going to cut to now basically the call to action, right? So we see, you know, regulatory, technical, all these pieces in place. So, and we actually have a question, I'm looking at the Q&A, so this is a very good question, right? So what can public-private partnership do to accelerate this adoption? So I'm not going to pass this to Parm, because I think he will be able to, we talked about this. So now what's the kind of call action? The last kind of eight, nine minutes in this, where can we go from here? Well, I'm going to take eight, nine minutes, Julian. So certainly from, again, from what we learned from the study is how do we move forward? And as, as Oswald said, there's already standards out there, but people are looking for that Nirvana end-to-end standard. Well, that's going to come and that will form as implementations, deployments, lessons are learned as to how trade and digitization of that trade and trade finance happens. What we heard from the study was sort of four phases of how do we, how do we bring this together? And one was how to establish a marketplace where people could come together in a natural sort of place? How do we increase membership so that we can get maximum participation? And I have inclusion across the economy from micro SMEs, SMEs as well as the large corporates. How do you drive governance? And then how do you drive interoperability or interconnectivity? Because underlying technologies are fundamentally different. They're apples and oranges and trying to get into the weeds. Again, our study says, well, do we need to go all the way down to the bottom? But it's more than just APIs at the application there at the top. Is there an interconnect capability? And what we found was the study was saying that there's five to six core entities that should be playing a role. And those should be governments, regulators, industry bodies, industry itself, technology companies, and academia. Those were the six ecosystems that the companies were looking for more guidance across those four phases. And it pretty much lends itself to Dupesh's question about the private partnerships because these are public and private institutions and ecosystems that need to play a role. And we heard loud and clear that when it comes to establishing a market, then market leaders and regulators, industry bodies need to play a role very much like the panel you've got here, Julian, today. And with Emanuel from WTO and also from the ICC, IBM from Technology, and then from an industry participant before we had some of the banks like HSBC Santander, they're all there as well. So we heard then, and then how to increase membership, look at academia, look at the legal aspect of the movement of data when looking at documents, when they're digitized, and how the law commissions in certain countries need to look at what they're doing with regards to the digital veracity of digital signatures and digital IDs above and beyond documents, and that's all at different levels. Singapore's pretty sophisticated, UK's going through a whole host of reviews as well because of Brexit. So there's those things that need to be done. So there is a very much of a high need for private and public partnership to drive greater adoption of digitization, but there's enough standards out there to get the ball rolling. Yeah, if I can just add in, I think, you know, there is also if you look at the lens of what has happened right in the last five years and, you know, where are we today? I found to your point about, you know, you know, are we actually, according to the study, you know, have we crossed the case, right? So, you know, if you are classically look at, you know, how the technologies gets adopted by the businesses. I think in the start of the COVID and in a nine months into the COVID, COVID has helped us to cross the case. So we are now into this early majority where a number of customers have started to actually see and create an ecosystem of network themselves to feed the business model. And that I think is something, you know, I to look to the earlier fact that Mark talked about in terms of the challenges that exist today. Yeah, there are plenty of challenges, but if you look at the positive side of what has happened in the last five years, is really there is a success in terms of the adoption. And those couple of things that we saw, which could be helpful to share here because there's always challenges, but there are also successes. So what has happened, what we saw was always having a customer focus, bringing the network to the to the kind of a doorstep of a customer and making him to initiate that network without asking him to join something else, which is out there, I think has been a key thought process. So in other words, you know, if he does process x way, can he does it in a wide way, and then looking at not really changing the world and, you know, have promising a lot of different things to them, but implementing a Japanese principle of Kaizen doing things different, but slightly better than what you did yesterday, and then providing them the agility to stay the course. I think has resulted into, you know, that option that we saw today, then within the DLTJ platform we have over 400 trading companies, 21 corporate and 45 banks. Now, if you look at Emmanuel, your table, I mean the production approach of that has been met with the challenges because maybe only part from two or three what you see on this trade and DLTJs and others. There are a lot of people are still in the concept stage, because they get stuck on the technology and other issues which cannot be solved by themselves. But if you look at the trade, it continues to happen and there's a way to actually help them with an adoption model. That's why I'm a big component of actually, you know, solving the problem, rather than saying someone else needs to fix it for me who is not a part of this panel here, right? It is about, because trade is happening to Palm's point, trade is increasing, right? Trade finance is increasing. So if people are doing stuff, so can I actually do it better? So adoption to me is the key thing where we have invested and we actually have come out with a patented stuff called digital ready next index, which actually takes along every party in along with you, even though you are not technically into the any of those roadmap of participating into the network, right? So if there are more customer facing customer related adoption challenges can be solved. I think we would be, you know, probably looking at phase two or phase three about a lot of different regulatory challenges that could come over because we can't solve that. The government needs to help and solve to us, but the trade happens, right? So just wanted to kind of lay that on top of, you know, the positive aspect of what has happened in this world, March of this year or April of this year as we say generally, we have crossed the case. So we are into the early majority. And that is really positive. Julian, if you let me, I would like to jump in and come back to this question of public credit partnership, which in my view is critical. We heard Oswald about the importance of standardization. Another aspect we need to work on is regulation and we heard Mark, we heard Atul talk about that. Why is it critical? It's often actually in somewhat an overlooked dimension, I would say, but you can have a great technology to digitalize trade. The fact of the matter is that if your legislation does not recognize e-signatures and e-documents, you won't go very far in digitalizing trade. And there are only about 60 countries around the world that allow for some form of recognition of e-signatures and e-documents. So we need to work on this. I mean, this is a good start to have 60 countries, but this is not enough. Likewise, there has been some great work being done by the UNC trial on this model on electronic transferable records that was adopted in July 2017. So far, only one country has transposed it into national legislation. I know that others are working on it. Singapore is working on transposing it, but we need to see more movement on that front. And so it's critical that regulators keep in sync with development on the private sector side to create that enabling regulatory environment. And what we show also in our study with BPESH is that customs developments are trailing. They are lagging behind. We need to make sure that we have this public-private cooperation to really move the needle. And this is where I think the private sector has a key role to play in. So this is in a way my call to action. Talk to your regulators. Explain the opportunities that blockchain opens in simple terms, because if you start talking about hashing, et cetera, they won't follow you. But I think it's critical to tell them that you need that enabling regulatory framework, that you need legal clarity in order to make it work. That's great. And I think, Oswald, maybe you would you want to add to that? I mean, it's called to action. Honestly, there's two things in my mind. The first is exactly what Emmanuel said. We can't just have one country having adopted due to trials model law for electronic transferable records. We need to all mobilize. And if you are reliant on trade digitization for business continuity or productivity, you need to know what the model law for electronic transferable records from you to trial is and how you can play a part. And secondly, exactly what palm said is don't wait. There's no magical day two or three years from now when it's going to be a good time to digitize your processes. So get involved. Ensure that you join an organization that has a proven track record of actually delivering these solutions and, you know, get going. No time like the present. We will solve the interoperability challenge as we go. Okay, well, I think we're going to come to it unless there's anything else that anyone wants to add. I think we're going to come to come to the end here right. And that was a great conversation. And like, as we always think I think we're just started going at the end. So how about a quick fire, quick 10 seconds for everybody, Julian, which is, first of all, just on interconnect. It's happening. So what's the space, but kill around question for everybody. Quickly, how likely do you think we're going to be successful with trade and trade finance digitization with blockchain. Mark, five seconds at a 10. Very confident. Very confident. And I think we'll get there by 2030. Okay, at all. Well, 2025. Five more years. And the likelihood at a 10. 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10. I'm aligned to at all. Emmanuel. Yeah, I think we'll, I think we'll make it, but we have to work together to make it. Yeah, let's make it, let's have 10, but let's work together to move to make it. And then just my view, digitizing alone is not going to be enough digitizing with trust COVID has shown has to happen, we have to do something different. We're seeing good patterns and I think we're at about seven out of 10. But if we continue to, to digitize and start playing as Oswald said, start the journey, then the likelihood is far sooner than 2030 Mark, you're going to pull it in a bit. I'm putting it in parm. Absolutely. 2025 is because COVID has moved us five years forward. The five minutes of motors five years forward. Otherwise, you know, No, no, no, no. Maybe it's me being a little bit pragmatic, but I mean, as I see like me, like, you know, we've got 60 countries so far who is actually accepting a e signatures. There are countries that we need that need to accept e signatures and will they accept it within the next five years. The same in terms of digitization of an acceptance of the digital documentation. One country that we think that all of the other countries are going to get there in five years. I would want them. Absolutely. And we'll do everything we possibly can to enable that to help them to accelerate it. You know, if we have more events and I say, you know, global events, you know, such as COVID. Yes, it has accelerated certain topics, but has it accelerated enough? Or do we feel that people will come back later to the old ways? I hope not. Absolutely. It's again 80 20 right I mean it's because it never be 100% in that sense right so it's eight or 10 trade routes of the world if those can be digitized I think you know, you know, there may be, you know, other countries bottom part may never be there right so again, it's not going to be a binary answer but it's probably 80% of the trade route I see being digitized and to end in the next five years. I think what we need to focus on digital trade for everyone, everywhere. And that includes that 20%. And it includes the last mile. Awesome. Okay, questions Julian they're 14 questions. I think actually, we're meant to we're coming up to a wrap but I'm happy to extend, you know, this is like football we have extra time right. So, I think that the question maybe about you can talk we've never talked about the sit right so where can we have a I don't really get to all the questions today, but can you talk about a platform that we have and then many other platforms where people can today go and take action and talk with others I think it's a collaborative activity right. So do you want to just quickly share the call to action for those. If I can see my slide. Can you see that Julian. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we, we have done a fantastic job as a community and trade finance and, you know, I think our goal is to learn one of the things question for Brian is, if there is a safe competition we would like to be number one seat in hyperlature, but we think that we have done really well in 2020. We have got over 200 contributors and we are as a chair is doing fantastic job and I support along with number of other community leads who are helping us. And, you know, we are increasingly getting I think about two or three a per day. One of the questions coming into the trade finance thing which is testimony to the great work that's happening so I think one of the great way to interconnect is Emmanuel said is to really work together. Join the same and and potentially also extend the same to to the other members of the other networks Julian right so if we can get even, you know, other networks providers like there's a question about quota, or Ethereum, I mean, can we actually look at more to also kind of include them into this sake, if you will, to really just provide that interoperability a bit more realistic sense that we could have some conversation like that happening. But yes, the call to action is to get everybody, those will not signed up please sign up the VK is out there. And I almost wanted to just echo what what I told you said because I think if you if there are people who are, for example, just participating or one or two of the technologies, I don't see there's going to be a winner that takes all so. So if you're a technologist you enjoy all of the great new use cases that blockchain can enable join the thing. Join the thing there's great sessions that are being hosted arm and a lot of great talented people that can help accelerate your journey. Do it, just do it. Awesome back to you Julian you are on mute. You have to bring it to an end now right. I think most of my looking through the questions most of the be answered but to those people out there we will I will send an email we'll send an email everyone attending right with that with a overview with this video right and answer some of those questions but really if you want to do the questions maybe we should have a session in our seat to go through some of those questions we do have a time. It's 430 Singapore time, 830 UK time every two weeks. So I will go through some of those questions probably the next the next session actually where we have China systems are working through something on electronic bill a lady. So, thank you so much all you panelists what a great experts. I wish we had more time now. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I think we're going to finish here. Take care everyone and keep safe everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Thank you Julian. Bye.