 The 10 central trade unions and last month given a nationwide call to observe one day general strike on November 26. The call came in the wake of a spate of protests raging across the country. This includes the farmers who are out on the streets against the agriculture reforms along with various section of workers who have been voicing their concerns against the labour code. Significantly, the protests against the policy decisions of the Narendra Modi-led central government have also seen participation by the government employees belonging to different sectors with their own sets of grievances. Resultantly, numerous union bodies representing these employees in the public sector enterprises have extended their support to the November 26 strike action. One of them being the employees bodies at DSNL, Bharat Sanchanigam Limited, which is the state-owned telecom service provider in the country. To discuss more about it, we have with us today Mr. P. Abhimanyu, General Secretary of the DSNL Employees Union. So Mr. Abhimanyu, thank you for taking out the time from your schedule for the interview and let us begin here with today's headline. Eight unions and associations of DSNL, including the one with which you are associated, have decided to join the forthcoming general strike on 26th of this month. The press statement released yesterday carries some serious accusations against the central government along with a 10-point chart of demands. We shall come back to the accusations a bit later, but explain it to our viewers. First, what has led the DSNL employees to partake in the strike action? DSNL Employees Union has decided to go on one-way strike in the month of November, even before the strike decision was taken by the central trade unions. In September this year, we conducted our central executive committee meeting, wherein we felt the need to go on a strike in November after conducting campaign in the months of September and October. The reason is that the hurdles being created by the government in DSNL's 4G launching. You know, the government has announced a revival package as a part of which they have told they have allotted 4G spectrum to DSNL, but without the equipments, we cannot start the service. DSNL floated a tender in the month of March to procure 50,000 BTSS based transceivers, 4G BTSS, and all of a sudden, the government told that it should be cancelled because it has violated the norms of making India policy and indigenous manufacturers, 4G equipment manufacturers, vendors, are not given with an opportunity to participate in the tender because tender conditions did not allow them. So they told us to cancel and the tender was cancelled somewhere I think in the month of June. Thereafter, it is already four or five months. Government of India or for that matter, the devotee is not able to tell BSNL, advise BSNL, which is the indigenous 4G manufacturer from whom BSNL can procure the equipments. They are not able to tell because fact remains that no indigenous company, desi company, is having the capability of supplying 4G equipments to BSNL. I don't mean to say that they have not perfected the 4G technology, but BSNL is a company with very big network, vast network. It is not a small company operating in one or two states. It is from Kashmir to Kanyakumari, it is operating. So no Indian company is there, which is capable of supplying these 4G equipments and thereafter to save their skin. I should say, I should use the word to save their skin. What the devotee has done? The devotee formed a committee, their own internal committee consisting of experts from IITs, etc. We came to here and that committee has now recommended. What is the recommendation? BSNL should roll out in 4G network through a system integrator. What is a system integrator? System integrator is a company which will procure components of the 4G equipments, software from one company, hardware from another company and other components from some other companies and they will assemble. They will do the assembling for BSNL. See, this is very horrible because the system integrator itself is an agency and he will take its own margin, which is going to increase the cost of rolling out 4G network and more than that technical glitches will be there. This is the opinion of experts. Let us come in the media. Technical glitches will be there because of this system integrator model. I am sorry to interject you over here. This is just for our viewers to know that whatever Mr. Abhimanyu has just said has been the episode of this year itself. Just to put this in perspective, the 4G services in India were first launched as early as in the year 2012, if I am not wrong, by a private service provider and it is also important to know that the system integrator is not in 2012. Recommendation. Okay. Now this system integrator, it is important to know that no private telecom service provider in India has rolled out its services through system integrator. Now Mr. Abhimanyu, if that is the case and the system integrator model as you have previously alleged that it is costly and it is susceptible to technical glitches, why do you think that DOT is pressing too much for the BSNL to go about for it? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That is the reason because, see, I don't mean words. It is a conspiracy to weaken BSNL, to deny BSNL of its 4G technology. It is a conspiracy. The letter written by one industry body called TEPC and immediately the commerce ministry very hastily considering it taking decision and then informing DOT, all these things are a clear cut part of the conspiracy to weaken BSNL. Sir, it is not a new thing. From 2007 to 2012, this is what exactly done by the Congress led UPA government. They did not allow BSNL to procure mobile equipment during that period. For five, six years, strike after strike we conducted and then only we succeeded in 2013 and thereafter BSNL started getting equipment but damage is done from 2007 up to 2012. This is the period when the mobile services grew exponentially in India. Unfortunately, BSNL was not able to take the benefit out of it and BSNL has gone into loss only because of this. Now, again, that same game plan is being enacted and the government does not want BSNL to launch its 4G service. I want to tell statistics. See, every month, TRY is releasing the figures which company has provided, how many new connections. In the month of April, both Vodafone, IDIA and Airtel have lost 37 lakh customers, both the companies. Their customers have migrated to Geo whereas BSNL added 2 lakh new mobile customers even in the month of April. Now, coming to July, Vodafone IDIA lost 37 lakh customers and Airtel narrowly escaped. It did not lose much customers but in the month of July, BSNL has provided 38000 new mobile connections. What it shows? Without 4G and only with 2G and 4G, BSNL is able to put up such a competition to Geo. Geo is a juggernaut. See, it completely all the small, medium-sized companies are demolished. Even Airtel and Vodafone IDIA are not able to face the competition from Geo. They have gone into loss whereas BSNL is the only company capable of putting up a fight because it is a government company and it has got the backing of the people of this country. People believe BSNL does not do cheating in metering. BSNL does not do cheating in billing. So, people have faith on BSNL. People want BSNL to become a vibrant telecom service provider in this country. So, people support. So, together with the people support, if BSNL gets 4G technology also, certainly the overzealous ambition of Mukesh Ambani to monopolize this entire telecom industry will not happen. And exactly that is the reason why BSNL is being weakened from within because the government is the owner of this company and the government itself is weakening. Whatever done by Congress Party, Congress-led UPA government from 2007 to 2012, exactly the same thing is being done by the BJP-led NDA government. They are not allowing BSNL to adopt higher technology. This is the matter, a factor of the matter. Mr Abhimanyu, the numbers that you have shared just now are very interesting because it also connects to what we are next to discuss. I wanted you to shed some light on the financial condition of the state-owned telecom company that is BSNL while comparing it with the private players. And I ask you, because many media reports have suggested choppy conditions for the telecom sector as a whole that has spared none, especially ever since September 2016 when geo-services, reliances geo-services were made publicly available. However, it seems that whenever it comes to financial unviability, BSNL is unfairly targeted, an argument that you have yourself made it just now. Now, please explain it to our viewers how bad the financial situation is as far as BSNL is concerned and what is its current position in the telecom sector? Yeah, before coming to BSNL's financial position, I should tell the game plan of Reliance Geo. Reliance Geo started its service in September 2016. Right from day one, it is practicing predatory pricing. Predatory pricing means selling a commodity at a lesser price than its cost of production. So, they are giving 1 GB data free, everyday 2 GB data free, unlimited free voice call. All these things are, this is predatory pricing, this is being made only to close down the shops of its competitors. And it has worked, Videocon, Aircel, TeleNor, Tata TeleServices, Reliance Infocom, belonging to, belonging to Anil Ambani, all these companies, small and medium sized companies have been closed down because of the onslaught of this predatory pricing unleashed by Geo. Coming to Airtel and Vodafone Idea, they are giants, behemoths. But even Airtel and Vodafone Idea have gone into loss and they are not able to come out of it. Because of these, BSNL is also affected. In fact, I told that from the year 2013 onwards, BSNL was able to procure equipments, expand its network because of our struggles. So, from 2014-15 onwards, BSNL started earning operating profit, 14-15, 15-16 and 16-17, 3 years continuously BSNL because it has already started coming out of the rate. But when Geo launched its service in September 2016 and because of this predatory pricing, once again BSNL's revenue collections slumped. It went down drastically and because of that BSNL went into a financial crisis, I can say, not able to pay salary to the employees, not able to pay rent, not able to pay even electricity connections and all these things happen. Okay, then the government told the employees' strength is very high. So, we want to implement VRS. They implemented 79,500 employees have gone home taking the VRS. 50% of the workforce, it is reduced through VRS. But even then thereafter, still our employees are not getting salary every month and even our medical bills are not paid on and these problems are continuing. And more importantly, BSNL is not able to pay money to its vendors, to Nokia, to Huawei, ZT, BSNL is having outstanding amount to be paid. In fact, even before we could procure 4G equipments with the existing equipments, BSNL could have launched the 4G service. Around 49,300 BTSS based transceivers, they are 3G BTSS, but 4G compatible. I should praise Mr. Anupam Srivastava, who was our erstwhile CMD, Chairman and Managing Director. He had the farsightedness to procure 3G BTSS, which are 4G compatible. With slight upgradation, all the BTSS could be converted into 4G. 49,300 such equipment BTSS BSNL is having, even without floating tender, without procuring new equipments with these equipments, BSNL could have launched its 4G service, could not be done. Why? Because the vendors, especially Nokia and ZTE, they told, if you want us to upgrade your equipments, then you pay us the outstanding amount. The outstanding amount came only to 1,200 crore to Nokia and ZTE. Had BSNL paid that 1,200 crore, definitely those 49,300 BTSS could have been upgraded. And even without waiting for new tender, BSNL could have started the service. So, 1,200 rupees BSNL is not able to pay. We have seen demonstration of being conducted in BSNL corporate office by various vendors, contractors from nearby states. So, this is the condition of BSNL. BSNL has not come out of its financial crisis, because, see, the company has to increase its revenue. It has to increase its revenue. Now, if we go to the customers and customers are, do you provide 4G? We say no. Then naturally, they opt for private operators only. So, without launching our 4G service, we cannot expect that BSNL's financial position can be improved. This is one thing. Another area, certain other areas are also there. In the fiber service, fiber service, BSNL is doing extremely well. Even, I can proudly say that BSNL has defeated, this is one area where BSNL has defeated GEO. GEO started their own fiber service, GEO fiber. No, it did not take up. Even today, even especially during this lockdown period, people prefer only BSNL's FTTH connection because of our vast optic fiber network. Its length is 7.5 lakh root kilometer, the length of BSNL's optic fiber network. So, we are able to reach every nook and corner of the country through our optic fiber. And this is what things make it very clear. If BSNL is given the technology, we will defeat GEO also. And as of now, our financial condition is very bad. Even now, at this moment, contract workers are not paid wages for almost one year. Regular employees are not getting salary. Similar many problems are there. You have made two different points here. On one hand, you are saying that there have been sectors, there have been areas where BSNL has done very well and it has got its assets and it has got its strengths in the telecom sector. But to be sure, last year for the first time, over 1.68 employees who were then on the company's role did not receive their salaries for months. And again, as you mentioned that contract employees have not been getting their payments since 10 to 12 months. In that context, if I ask you what are the significance of the revival of BSNL as being demanded by the employees is important for the whole telecom sector because in your answers, you are clearly accusing one private player to be engaging in, as you say, predatory pricing, which is hurting all the players in the sector. So what is the significance for the demands of the employees for the whole telecom sector if I ask you? I will say it is BSNL which is playing the role of regulator. Try is the regulator, but it is hand in glove with the geo. I will say it is not at all doing the job of the regulator. What is the job of the regulator when some player plays a foul game? He should be controlled. See providing predatory service, predatory pricing, it is violation of the game. In fact, the erstwhile secretary telecom, senior IAS officer J.S. Deepak openly wrote a letter to the tri chairman pointing out that you are allowing this predatory pricing and immediately overnight he was shunted out of a devotee. You know that. I can even tell why I am accusing that try is hand in glove with geo. It is not only predatory pricing, government has taken many steps. Try has taken many steps to facilitate geo. For example, the you must be knowing about IUC, inter usage connectivity charge. That is if a call originates from BSNL network and it terminates in Airtel's network, then BSNL has to pay a charge to Airtel because the network is shared. This is in IUC. This IUC charge was reduced to the extent of 57%. 57% IUC charge was reduced somewhere in 2000, October 2017, only to facilitate geo. Because at that time geo's number of customers is lesser and the customers of other companies is more. So geo was paying a huge IUC charge to other players to help that try cut down the IUC charge by 57% immediately because I think for 15 or 17 months after starting the service, geo was running into loss. Immediately after this step, it came into in the next quarter itself, geo came into profit. So many such steps are taken that the try regulator is facilitating geo to capture the market, I will say. But BSNL is playing the role of regulator because just imagine if BSNL is not there, what will happen? All these private players, they will forget about their enmity, sit together, they will form cartel and they will raise the call charges, data charges, geo, Airtel, what-of-one, everybody. They are not able to do because only because of the existence of BSNL. Even if they raise, recently call charges were raised by geo, Airtel, what-of-one. BSNL did not raise. It raised very slightly. So for the fear that BSNL is existing, these private companies, they are not able to flee money. This is what I'm telling. This is where BSNL comes to the service of the people. So BSNL, the health of BSNL, well-being of BSNL is very important to the society in large. Now let's come to the revival plan over here. A year has been passed since a relief package worth Rs. 69,000 crores was announced by the Union Minister of Communications, Ravi Shankar Prasad. The package included, among others, reducing wage bills that restructuring by raising bonds, monetization of companies' assets and importantly, allotment of 4G spectrum. Now in the press statement that was released yesterday, Mr. Abhimanyu, the unions have reiterated that the revival of BSNL remains a distant dream since the government is not taking sincere steps for the same. Why do the employees think so? Why is it, why do you think the center is being insincere about it? See, first and foremost reason is, without start launching our 4G, we cannot even imagine of BSNL's revival. That has not happened. One thing, yes, it is true that 79,000 employees have been sent home under VRS but that will not improve the financial health of the company in any way according to our trade union is concerned because in the year 2004-5, BSNL earned a net profit of Rs. 10,000 crores. You know, nobody can say that there was no competition in the year 2004-5. There was a stiff competition but in spite of that BSNL earned a net profit of Rs. 10,000 crores. At that time, BSNL was having at least 100,000 employees more on its role compared to December 2019. I am not talking about the company's workforce now. It is reduced but even before VRS was implemented, even if you compare that strength of the workforce with the strength workforce of the 2004-5, BSNL was having so with 100,000 more employees, BSNL was able to earn Rs. 10,000 crores net profit and now after that, 1,000,000 employees have gone home on superannuation and thereafter 79,000 employees have gone home under VRS. Still, BSNL is not able to come out of the loss because BSNL is not able to increase its revenue. Sir, it is not sufficient that if you cut down the cost, yes, cost has to be cut down but more than that, you have to think about ways and means for shoring up your revenue. BSNL has not taken any step to increase its revenue. So, revenue has not increased. Naturally, revival is not happening. Another thing, BSNL is having very severe cash crunch. It needs money, cash liquidity it requires. What exactly we demanded? Yes, government has given sovereign guarantee to raise money through by issuing bonds for providing an efficient service. For example, FTTH is a hot cake. We require a lot of investment but we have no money. So, what BSNL was compelled to do? BSNL has entered into contract with cable operators, TV cable operators. So, the TV cable operators are providing the last mile link to the customers and they are taking away 50% of the revenue. This is what I am telling. Not only 4G, even for the existing services BSNL is not having the cash flow to improve the quality of service efficiency of service. This is one point. So, actually what we demanded? We demanded that BSNL should be provided with soft loan. We do not want even a single Naya Paisa as charity arms from the government. We demanded because government of India has given soft loan to 93 countries. 93 countries and it comes to around 1,96,000 crore to increase friendship with these countries. This is a very important point to raise because you are suggesting that the government is not coming on board to support the BSNL revival. But before I conclude this interview, I would like you to ask about the other demands that the BSNL employees are trying to raise by striking work on November 26. And I want you to be brief on that. The unions have been demanding, the unions have been taking up the 7-point demand charter of the central trade bodies, which is pressing the center to transfer 7,500 per month to all non-income tax pay family. Why do you think it is crucial for public sector employees such as those of BSNL to carry these demands? See, BSNL employees for that matter, the trade union movement of BSNL, we cannot only worry about our demands, our well-being. Because BSNL employees union and for that matter BSNL workers are part and parcel of the Indian working class. After the lockdown was promulgated, 14 crore migrant workers were left high and dry. No job, no food, no place to reside. What happened? You have seen what happened in Delhi and Mumbai? They became beggars. They started walking hundreds of miles. And it is our demand. And when we talk about households, non-income tax pay, how income tax paying out holds, a bulk of the migrant workers and unorganized sector workers come into that. Because of this lockdown, because of this COVID-19, because of this pandemic situation, their financial position is badly affected. See, I am telling shortly, even now government is going to announce one revival, I mean, what you call stimulus package. All economies are telling. Without increasing demand, the economy of the country cannot improve. For improving the demand, money has to go into the hands of the people, into the hands of the working people. In fact, if this is 7,500 rupees, cash transfer to these families every month, if this is done, it will go a long way in reviving the economy of the country. So that way BSNL Employees Union is a patriotic organization. So we don't worry only about our demands. And we worry about the well-being of the general working class. And this is the most affected section of the working class. So we fully support that demand. And we, in fact, we have accepted it as one of our demands. Mr. Abhimanyu, thank you so much for taking out your time. That was a very positive note of her on which I would like to end this interview. Best of luck to you and the BSNL unions who will be participating in the general strike that is coming up on November 26th, as well as the campaign programs that are leading up to it. Thank you so much, Mr. Abhimanyu. Thank you.