 God, he's on his knees. What? He's there. And he's the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. The stupid jacket of mine has a zipper where you think there's a pocket, but it's just a necklace. I'm gonna put the keys in the pocket. Can I do that? We did. Did you see the U.S. women's soccer team? Oh, no. I was, like, really... I was, like, really... I was, like, really... I was, like, really... I was, like, really... I was, like, really... $9, like, going, It's unfair that they should criticize me for celebrating too much. Like, well... I mean, anybody that's celebrating too much is, you know, 15, 16, 13 minutes. I felt that at the time. And so, Chile, I think, was over 3-0. That was a more regrettable thing. Chile, we'd be Chileans if it wasn't for 3-0. But there were, like... There were, like, the other times. Weeks or months, they woke up appropriately. So, it's every four years and it's really, really... So, it takes... They're broken into, like, six groups. So, they play in groups until they have enough games and points to rank them. And then they pick the top two and then they pull them out. And they do, you know, they resolve the groups. And then... Hi, there. I'm watching it, but I did catch that Thailand game. So, the last five minutes of it, when we scored five goals, it was just... That's the power. And we really shouldn't have celebrated it, right? Oh, the crime element. It ends up behaving that way, but probably would have said, I think we should have big high-fives really timing on the genocide. The moment it was telling, huh? So, bring one. So, are we going to publish it? One more? Yeah. Well, we're going to publish it. Good, yeah. Well, I'm sure it's going to be... We'll be able to do it. We'll be able to do it. We'll be able to do... He's not bad. He's not bad. He's not bad. He's not bad. Okay. Well, it was a good day. I wish for him to be kind. I would like to call to order the South Burlington City Council meeting of Monday, June 17th, 2019. We'll start with the Pledge of Allegiance, make a new start please, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. We've got an item two instructions on exiting the building in case of emergency. We have emergency tonight, please exit by one of these two doors here and proceed to the parking lot to the south. If that, those exits are not accessible, please go back out into the lobby and out the main entrance and around to the parking lot to the south. We've changed our plan and so the plan is once you're outside go to the next building beyond 595 and on the parking lot on the backside of that. Oh, okay. Please leave right away. Tom and I will make sure the building is clear. Yes, sir. All righty. Agenda review, any additions, deletions or changes? Yeah, do you have any? Well, the question is, do we expect the incumbents to be here tonight for interviews? And if so, can we relieve them? I thought we had talked about that. Yes, I know. I think we probably, it's probably good to see them and at least ask them how they think it's going. And not necessarily, you know, what makes you a good, or why should you be reappointed? But what is it that you've done maybe and what looks promising or what are some challenges? That kind of stuff. Okay. Just, I think that's good information for us. I agree. But I appreciate we're not going to go through, have you been to a meeting? And I have to admit that even though both Megan and I looked at this agenda, I did not notice that we had forgotten to put on a discussion on our kind of communication and re-framing the steering committee meeting. I sent everyone the copies of those things and asked you to think about it. And then as I was looking down the agenda, I realized I hadn't added it. So depending on the hour, I'd really hope that we could agree to a couple things so that tomorrow when we have a steering committee, we can say, well, these are the things that we think are worth pursuing and make it a little more action-oriented with the school board. But then I forgot to put it on the agenda for action. But we can potentially discuss that and identify generally what are some of the ideas. So I apologize. This is an amendment, but I'd like to ask Chief Burke about the bear sightings when he's here talking on that item. So that's like a sub-item, I don't know. You will be here. Yeah, we can ask him about the bear sightings. And we're striking 16. Is that true? We're striking 16. And then you can decide if you want to do 17 and 18 tonight. I think the issue came around. Who's going to be there on the first? Yes. Right. But we also have a number of ones that like three openings, three incumbents. You don't need to scratch your head too hard. Okay. Item, so we'll just, if we have time tonight under other business, maybe we can generally discuss some of those communication issues. And I'm sorry. It's twice in a row. I'm annoyed with myself because I, but anyway, I've been thinking about it. Number four, possible executive session to discuss matters related to personal and collective bargaining agreements. I'd like to move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of labor relations agreements with employees, collective bargaining and confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing a professional legal service to the council would clearly place the council in the city as substantial disadvantage. All in favor. Aye. And having so found and I move that the council enter into executive sessions for the purpose of discussing the matters identified in the previous motion as well as for matters related to the securing of real estate and the appointment or evaluation of public officers or employees inviting a Kevin, Jordan, Tom Hubbard and Andrew Bulldock. Any discussion? All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. So this we think will be about 45 minutes. Peanut gallery. Not many peanuts out there tonight. Maybe they studied the agenda. Hopefully that would be good. Water ski today. Oh. 715 was the public comments. It was a little bit backwards. Oh. Oh, right. Yeah. I guess we need. Oh, so I'd like to call back into session. The South Burlington city council meeting of Monday, June 17th, 2019. An item five is a fun item. We have a wonderful artists in residence. In our fair city. And if you've noticed any of the wonderful boxes, electrical boxes that are painted throughout the city. That is an act of love and real creativity by Katie O'Brien. I had the pleasure of meeting her one day. I walk often with my best friend who also happens to happen to be her former principal at Heinsberg. Right. Yeah. And then came upon this lovely woman painting and Donna newer and introduced me. And we talked about it. And then I came to learn that she was married to Tim Barrett. So it was like, oh, okay, all these connections. And I was so taken with all the paintings because they're just wonderful. I'm sure we all have our favorites as you drive around the city. They struck me as a really wonderful aspect of our community. So we thought it made sense to recognize that. I also made some and Donna made some cookies for to celebrate this occasion. So Katie, if you would come up, probably should read this. It's kind of long, but I think I should read it. Yeah. Why don't we all go in the front? This is a city council resolution that's in July 1, 2019 as the Katie O'Brien Public Art Appreciation Day. Whereas according to the organization, Americans for the arts, there are five reasons why public art matters. Economic growth and sustainability. By engaging in public art as a tool for growth and sustainability. Communities can thrive economically. 70% of Americans believe that the quote arts improve the image and identity. End of quote of their community. Attachment and cultural identity. Public art directly influences how people see and connect with the place. Providing access to aesthetics that support its identity and making residents feel appreciated and valued. Aesthetics is one of the top three characteristics why residents attach themselves to a community. Artists' contributors. Providing a public art ecosystem supports artists and other creatives by validating them as important contributors to the community. Artists are highly entrepreneurial. They are three and a half times more likely than the total U.S. workforce to be self-employed. Social cohesion and cultural understanding. Public art provides a visual mechanism for understanding other cultures and perspectives. Reinforcing social connectivity with others. 73% of Americans agree that the arts quote helps me understand other cultures better. Public health and belonging. Public art addresses public health and personal illness by reducing stress. Providing a sense of belonging and addressing stigmas towards those with mental health issues. Public art is noted as slowing pedestrians down to enjoy their space and providing a positive impact on mood. And you certainly did that for me. And whereas South Burlington resident Katie O'Brien approached the city in the spring of 2017 with a plan for a community beautification project through public art by painting drab looking utility boxes with bright colors and patterns and whereas Katie O'Brien enlisted the assistance of a large group of volunteer artists to participate in this project and whereas Katie O'Brien acquired all needed materials for the project and whereas utility boxes throughout the city have been painted in a multitude of colors, designs and patterns making previously unattractive metal boxes attractive pieces of art that grab the eye and bring joy to those who see them and whereas public art is a crucial element of building a stronger sense of community in the city of South Burlington and whereas it is in the interest of the city of South Burlington to recognize those who volunteer their time and services for the benefit of the community Now therefore we have resolved that the city council of the city of South Burlington recognized Katie O'Brien for a commitment to public art and the quality of life in the city and therefore designates July 1, 2019 as Katie O'Brien Public Art Appreciation Day in South Burlington, Vermont and be it further resolved that the council encourages all South Burlington residents and visitors to pay special attention to the work of Katie O'Brien and our many volunteers as they drive, bike, or walk around the city on July 1 and be it further resolved that a copy of this resolution be presented to Katie O'Brien by the South Burlington City Council and be it further resolved that the entirety of this resolution be read into the record of the proceedings of the South Burlington City Council meeting June 17, 2019 So thank you very very much You have more coming. Oh, we have 13 done, two underpasses I've had to promise my crew that I will take them out from the main bridges for a little while because it's a little icky in there but we have 13 more groups who will be headed out to paint before the end of the month and then we have 17 more boxes after that Yeah, that's great. Well, we really appreciate it. Thank you so much They're really fun. Everyone has their favorites. I keep changing but I really do like the birch trees. That's one of my favorites. I agree I also like the chicken. Yeah? Yeah, okay Well, there's a lot more coming. We even have some South Burlington teachers who are going to... Oh, that's great. And your daughter, right? She helps too. She does I mean, did Tim get this started because he was painting over the graffiti under the bridges or is this just your family thing? No, this is what I did out of my school and I loved it so much that I decided to retire and do it here Well, we really appreciate it. Thank you very very much Thank you for letting me do it Great. Thank you And please enjoy the refreshments They're for everyone Not just Tom, but... Okay, moving on to item six Comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda Is there anyone? Come on up Please tell us your name and where you live and what's on your mind My name is Laura Waters and I live in Queen City Park and first of all I want to thank Megan for taking the baton and writing the letter that she wrote to Burlington City Council that's going to be presented tonight about the issue of the Burton and higher ground development and I think you all got the letter, right? And the petition that we circulated in the neighborhood we had some additional signatures over the weekend so we have 76 people out of 80 residences now that's multiple people in some of the single houses but that's still a lot of, that's a pretty high representation of what people feel about this development And so just to expand a little bit on what was put in the letter one of the biggest concerns that I have personally are the increased activities that will occur because you're attracting so many people in and I think higher ground has concerts six nights a week almost all year long so you're drawing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people a week down into that area that's going to have a significant impact on us as residences in Queen City Park and also significant impact on Red Rocks Park you can't keep people out of there There were 115 police incidents and directed patrols in the past year at higher ground and that's in a commercial industrial area that's not a residential area so I'm quite certain that we have a whole lot more we have smashed and grabs at Red Rocks Park right now so we've already got some crime the incidents were intoxication, drugs, sex, nuisance, noise you name it, just what you would expect from a venue where you've got a lot of activity with people drinking As far as people coming down into Red Rocks Park I mean into Queen City Park we see that happen all the time now because of Google Maps so people put, they look in Google Maps and they see a green space and they see lake and they're always all summer long driving down into Red, into Queen City Park looking for something to do whether it's to hang out in our green or play basketball or try to find access to the lake there's just a lot of increased activity well once you concentrate people down there they're going to find us they are going to be down there they're going to be driving up and down the road they're going to be using our privately owned property for pre and post concert partying probably and then also the impact on Red Rocks Park people just going in there and spilling in there and partying and jumping off the cliffs or whatever they choose to do after the concerts so and then we have the noise issue of course where they say they're going to do noise insulation of the building but you probably all sat next to a car that had a really loud bass and you can't insulate against that vibration of the whole resonance of bass so at least those of us who are on the northern end of Queen City Park would probably be impacted and then you've got noise spillage every time the doors open up you can't keep the noise inside the building they may do a pretty good job but it'll still be impactful traffic so nobody's really talked about yet what they want to do about the traffic they discussed and I've seen something that said that maybe it would be tied to the Champlain Parkway but yet it seems like it's way ahead of the Champlain Parkway so we've got the obvious issue of the one lane bridge it's an accident waiting to happen and I don't know how they would keep people off that bridge coming and going from the venue and the other point is lake pollution I'm sure that they're going to put all sorts of street lights lights up in the parking lots around for safety issues and we really like dark skies down there and it's going to create a lot of light pollution so I don't know what leverage South Burlington has with Burlington around anything like this I mean it's a shared border where are butters but I would urge you to please contact or keep in touch with the city keep in touch with Moreau and really really urge them to find a different tenant for this space I think higher ground probably does it serves a purpose that a lot of people really enjoy but it does not belong in an area that's residential with a huge beautiful natural area right next to it I think it's just going to be just a series of disastrous circumstances for us down there and for the park that we all love so that's what I have to say thank you very much I did contact the mayor this afternoon I didn't speak directly with him although I just got a text from Moreau Weinberger that said did you ever connect with Moreau so I don't know I don't know exactly what that means but they do intend to vote on the zoning as I was told the voting the zoning change tonight but there is a process going forward where the public because they have to get some additional permits where the public can express themselves I did identify all of those issues and I will have a conversation with the mayor we meet on airport issues so we can add this to the list because once again this is Burlington impacting one of our neighborhoods and hopefully we can work together on some of those issues particularly around potentially red rocks and how we can really make sure that that area is not further denigrated by having a gazillion people I think that's something that they should be amenable to so we will try to work with them as best we can and I would encourage any and all people who you know are butters as well as the city council to express our concerns and be part of that permitting process and I appreciate your letter Megan and I'm not alone Tom Chittenden also wrote a letter to the councilors as well as Chape and Spencer because he also expressed concern about the Champlain Parkway being crossed by people walking to higher ground because it is not accessible other than by car so there's not a bus that goes there so it's I mean I don't know if UVM is going to send buses down there or not I don't know but I know for a fact that higher ground is a place where UVM students go clearly, clearly it is a site for students so I think there are a lot of concerns I would like for us to discuss this further under other business if possible just so we all as a council can discuss it and perhaps coalesce around perhaps future steps Yes Kevin can work with them too Tom? Yeah I just forwarded you the email Laura that I sent to the Burlington City Council on Friday and I think I heard you list it but I'm really concerned about the location of our police stations and where this is positioned outside of residential areas I have cops, police officers that are friends and this is just not the right place to put high activity type behavior so I forwarded you the note and I'd be supportive of having further discussions on this because I don't support this setting change Well I think also that the noise and everything else is a major concern and traffic then you toss in red rocks where you know kids go to higher ground they drink, they party and then oh let's go to red rocks and the next thing you know you got drunk kids jumping off cliffs and getting killed and we can't afford to have anything like that happen either so I think red rocks kind of exacerbates an already concerning situation so I think you know whether Burlington hadn't thought about all of this I don't know but hopefully they will now and it's good there are a couple more permits that have to be obtained Yeah it won't happen It's not tonight maybe a formal agenda item at a coming meeting just after we hear what happens this evening and what the next steps are Yeah good points Yeah we can talk about that under other business The road with the one lane bridge is that in South Burlington? Is it shared by Burlington and South Burlington? I think it's shared isn't it? Yeah the bridge is shared Look down the middle isn't it? Is that longitudinally or labitudinally? Yeah we could just block it If we got to East end we could just block it right? Yeah exactly Do you have reps at the meeting tonight in Burlington? Oh yeah there are a lot of people in Burlington They're all going to be allowed to speak do you think? Yes they will because Karen Paul I also reached out to a number of councillors and Karen said they take public comment at 7.30 and they'll listen to them because I told her we couldn't be there because we were on council meeting but alright well thank you Thanks very much It's concerning Oh can I just ask you one question when did you first get wind of this? Well personally we were traveling so it was like the beginning of the year so we weren't able to engage at all and it was just kind of rumored Larry didn't you go, I'm sorry didn't you go to a meeting beginning of the year? They've been invited the patrols have been inviting their neighbours to hear some of their discussions some of their plans how they want to convert their building to other uses but it's all contingent on the zoning change which will be a conditional use so there'll be a permitting that every business has to go through and in their particular case even they're concerned about traffic because the roadway there doesn't support the kind of traffic that they're going to need to generate and they know that but I'm not sure they know what to do about it and they still want to go forward Well the higher ground folks are sort of pushing on that spot According to the NPR there was a news story this morning and Ellen Newman said that they looked at that magic hat back when magic hat moved to So I think it's been in the back of people's minds about other uses for that the major part of that warehouse building Did Burton engage with the city of South Burlington? Not that I'm aware Not that I'm aware I think it's wonderful that they reached out to community members who live close by to let you know I don't know where I've been I've never gone to higher ground so maybe I don't follow any of it I had no idea this was even being discussed till really quite recently But it's been like January February is when it emerges Time flies But one would think given the traffic issues and the impact on a neighbor that Burton would have at least sat down with you Kevin and said this is what we're planning these are How can we work on this together or solve some of the issues and not just Since it's our road half of it is anyway Yeah Yeah it's gone pretty far down the track before it became really apparent to everybody what was going on Well that certainly is a concern because the guy I spoke with was kind of like well this has been really well publicized and I said well you know sometimes things are well publicized for you because you're right in the thick of the conversations and of course the public sometimes doesn't respond until it's right at their doorstep because they don't know a vote is necessarily imminent or that they should have been in on these meetings since January or seven years ago You may be referring to the fact that the south end rezoning has been going on for about three years and there's been lots of public comment on that and all the businesses on Pine Street will be affected by being able to change the nature of their business if they want and they're all looking at larger music venues and outdoor outdoor events but it will all be conditional use so it will all be needing permits but it's just not the Burton property it's the entire south end from Flint I mean from Lakeside to the south end which is right now zoned industrial and so that's part of the process of the south end of Burlington changing the higher ground piece has only been around since about January but the rest of the process which they're discussing tonight has been around for like I say about three years I guess I never thought about it as willing loud venues I just didn't think I guess because of all the beer parlors all the beer places they want to be able to entertainment and they can't do that now because of their you know the two beer places and the citizen side they all want to be able to do change the nature of their business which it affects Burton as well so it's all part of that master way okay well great thank you thank you very much Laura are there any other comments from the public alrighty announcements that the city managers report wants to start I gotta remember where what I did Tim do you have okay sorry Dave in the last two weeks no the only thing two nights later I'd be able to we have a rink board meeting tomorrow evening before the steering committee meeting I'm hoping we'll have a date that we're breaking ground for the rink edition and I don't have a permit stand do you know anything more we should send an act to 50 yeah I got the notice how long is the waiting period on that we should have it hopefully we'll have a pretty good idea tomorrow and as soon as we can get going on that that'll be pretty exciting it's funny we have rink meetings when something comes up so there's nothing else really on the agenda just an update on rink edition Tim are you ready yes so I attended a planning commission meeting last week up until the point when they were done talking about the proposed draft change to the city's TDR program which was attended by Mr. Seth and some people and there was a discussion that started up about the status of the court situations with the appeals but it ended pretty quickly and I also attended as well as you two did the Copenhagen sustainability presentation by three UVM students it was really fascinating especially the part about the trash burning facility that doubles as a ski area which was pretty cool and last but not least yesterday was father's day so my son had this custom made for me I thought I would show everybody I don't know if I qualified to really wear it but I thought you would all appreciate it Jedi councilman so watch out for my lace savers you know thanks Seth so I just thought that was pretty cool Megan my husband from his children got a red hen you know the bakery t-shirt so we'll have to have the midfathers get together with their t-shirts and do t-shirt party we attended that discussion I thought it was very interesting I would love to see the power point as soon as they send it out since we missed the end we also Helen and I she can talk more too attended our second meeting to discuss our planned events next fall and next spring on domestic and sexual violence in tandem with the school counseling at the high school working with the adults in the community as well as high schoolers specifically and we'll be meeting again in July second week in July and I'll talk about the interim zoning open space committee when we get there I guess but I think other than really looking into this issue about higher ground I think that's you were busy with that for sure the only thing I think that comes to mind is two nights after our last meeting I did go to the school board meeting where I think it did come up Elizabeth mentioned how she part of our improved communications that she wish she had been there at the Monday night conversation when we were discussing it so if anything I think she made a comment to bring that back to the council that if we want to invite her to future council meetings for those discussions or a school board member she would be the number one dad yesterday so did you get a t-shirt though it was three zip just like the women's soccer shoes today two to one it was a close two to one oh the other thing on the school board it does look like they are going to be putting forward a pretty big bond that's coming March on a new high school possibly a drastically improved middle school so it was heading that direction okay I had lunch with Winooski's mayor Christine Lott and we believe it or not talked about the airport and you know it just astounds me 40% of the housing in Winooski is affected under the new sound map 40% that's an enormous enormous number of people affected and so clearly they are interested in more than having a seat on the airport commission and we we will be morose or mayor Weinberger's staff has reached out to her and to me and we're trying to set up a meeting to continue the discussion I wanted to ask Kevin to forward to her our draft letter so she understood and we talked about what was in our draft letter for the NCP and they are pulling one together as well so I thought it was important that they knew even I said this is draft and you can talk about it but it hasn't been approved totally yet but I felt that was important for them because they had a sense of where we're going the one that we're looking at tonight and I don't know if anyone noticed they also there are a number of residents in Winooski that have sent a letter to Senator Sanders really outlined did you read that did you see that really outlining their concerns so she I think interested in working with us and certainly with the airport and this noise mitigation program and now that they have a defined group of residents who are affected I think their participation will be a lot easier I think in the past for Jesse Baker and for Seth it was kind of well we're not really in that inside that 65 or 75 so it's a little hard to get our our residents involved because they don't know if they are involved and so how do you comment on a program that you may not be a part of but they certainly will be a part of that now so she seemed I think she'll be great to work with I did go to the energy thing and the community forum I think it's important to note that the police department and chief work is very much a partner in that group and I really I applaud that and I find that you know very satisfying in terms of you know who we have as our chief of police and how that reflects the values of this community and then I went to a wonderful event at the bread and butter farm and Megan couldn't make it so she kindly sent me the invitation and this was a meeting with put on by Dirt Capital the group that's putting the money together to complete the plan they had in this I thought it was going to be there were probably 30 people there many of them potential investors and then an incredible array of different agricultural organizations in the state of Vermont and then in New England who really care about this kind of way to support both open space and really support continued agriculture in communities and then Brendan one of the farmers gave a fabulous description of all the things they're doing and I we need to have him come to the council I think in September would be a good time for him Dirt Capital said they would be there too because what they are working on and what they have planned in the different collaborations with other businesses to really utilize this agricultural space was mind-blowing and he also talked about in a really very helpful way to me how the Eau Claire's were sort of working with them and observing and sort of the emotional effect on their family of seeing somebody else farm their ancestors land in a very different way and that that is both you know comforting as well as discomforting and Brendan suggested that they come too so they can share their observations so I was really very very pleased to be there and to meet the people it was really impressive and they of course were very very impressed with the contribution that this community made and the funders see that as an incredibly important piece that encourages them to invest in this as well to have a community step up that far and then I also talked to them about our conservation I can't remember the name of it but you know the group with the other communities to the regional conservation district and saying that you know in my mind that kind of grew out of some of this partnership and it they thought that was really pretty special so it was a wonderful event jump in here this wasn't work this was truly pleasure but happy birthday happy 35th birthday channel 17 celebration last Thursday so and thank you Charlie for being here every time yes and I was supposed to go and I was fantastic there was a film yeah it was fantastic 35 years it was and they did it in less than an hour it was fantastic we didn't have any water I was waiting for the well guy but anyway that's suburban living when you have your own well I know and that's why it was concerning but it was some other thing okay city managers report real quick you all have been getting calls emails texts about red rocks and about dogs running loose and people biking through the trails by the end of the week we'll have three additional sandwich boards up in red rocks and some more permanent signing the signage to add to what we already have down there throughout the park on both the dogs and on biking as well but we'll have three sandwich boards up this week is there Kevin going to be anyone who is working at the entrance to red rocks there's not we don't have that position anymore we had that position in the past and we eliminated it I think two years ago but we will park ranger and he lives in queen city park how many hours per day I think he's pretty much full time for the six weeks of the season what kind of enforcement power does the park ranger have so it's more informing people contacting police if the need arises but that's one of the things that I think as we talk about the possibility of having a friends group in terms of helping them educate and supplement the work that he's doing because he can't cover all the hours that red rocks is open what I would suggest and obviously we can't talk about it tonight because it's not warned and I'm going to be gone the two meetings in July but in August as we're preparing the budget I would really like us to look at a policy for red rocks and this is dependent on what other counselors wish to do if they think this is important but I find that these reports have increased what is this off-road biking mountain biking but also the amount of dogs in the park is of concern and I go back to Indian Brook in Essex where when I was looking for a place to walk my dog and they allowed the dog to be off leash I had heard of this place so I got in my car with my dog and drove out there and we did this for years until Essex said there are too many dogs here and we had to buy a permit we had to buy a pass to get in as non-residents but now they're only allowing residents into Indian Brook because of the impact on the Brook, the E. Coli levels all that stuff and just the degradation of the park I think we're hitting that point right now and so what they did and I haven't been up there since because I'm not a resident but they had a card that people were talking about this 10-year that we're currently in maybe year 3 of the 10-year restoration project for our nature parks is perhaps having a little fee that people can pay in the city that would go into conservation in order to use Red Rocks Park and really treat it as a special place it is and really work to conserve it and having someone there at the gate checking people's passes during operating hours obviously and it's the same at Indian Brook after hours I'm sure anyone can go in and when it's not the summer season anyone can go in but during those peak times of the year really having someone check those passes and reminding them of the rules no bikes, have a bike rack for people who come with bikes have the dog bags ready with the garbage can all these things just to really make it clear to people that we're taking this very seriously I don't know if other counselors agree with me I tend to agree with you I've just from just knowing how many students use Red Rocks especially as the weather improves now with dogs jumping off the cliffs dogs not on leashes drinking there's an awful lot of increase I agree with everything you said I think we probably should work on how we're going to how we're going to put that into play and during hours I haven't been to Red Rocks in a while but you know fences are fences we could have the entrance area and go 100 feet each direction with a significant fence so that you can't just kind of stroll around and we could do something like that too we could talk about that I think we need a plan I think I would task first the parks and rec committee whatever it is what order and maybe they can work on something I don't know what their work plan is at the moment but clearly relative to the change in the zoning right on the other side of Red Rocks and that impact it might make sense for them to think about what is the right policy for Red Rocks and come back to us I think that makes great sense we can't have our heads in the sand on this thing we've got to do we've got to be proactive on if the signage goes up requiring the dogs to be on a leash then enforcement takes over after some amount of time what's wrong with having a police officer walk to Red Rocks park and use your tickets because it's a if you're not obeying about leashes in the park you could be given a ticket I think that first I mean we'll let the recreation parks we have speed traps we can have leash traps but people will start paying attention when they realize they've got a ticket for $25 for not keeping the dog it's your dad's shirt on it's a $75 whatever it is we can take credit cards and get one of those little slide it okay well let's let the our committee work on it and then bring us some ideas and then we can discuss this more forward maybe natural resources should too because wildlife corridors are big and that's the one thing about the fence they've been tracking all of that movement right it might snag that bear last I heard it that way okay you're done oh sorry I stopped nothing else on here that big so we're moving on to item 8 which is a review and possibly approve and authorize the director of public works to execute an interlocal e-bike share agreement so Justin good evening Justin and while I may be sitting here and the memo came from me both Paul Conner and I have been working jointly on this for 18 months back to prior to the phase 1 implementation as well as being supported by city attorney Balduck every step along the way as you can see the majority of my packet was the contract so there's been a lot of that work quickly in nutshell the current e-bike share program which is probably best represented by the bikes that are sitting out in front of healthy living or at the top of the Gutterston parking garage for example that was we're just getting rolling up on the end of year 1 of that which required a I think it was $5,000 a year contribution from the city to sustain that that was supposed to be a 3-year contract with renewable up to 5 years well the market has really desired a change in both the type of bike as well as how the program is funded so the proposal is in Winnowski, Burlington and South Burlington, Burlington already has their legislative body approval that the current bikes that you see and recognize are going to be removed from inventory and they're going to be replaced by 200 electrical assist bikes a lot of what they found in Burlington was bikes were making their way down the hill and not up as well as just nationwide the trend is with an aging population with e-bikes it really opens it up to a larger group of users so you don't have to give it the full pedal push to get where you need to go delivering cookies and there is no longer needed a city contribution the program is going to be funded primarily by the sponsor which has got your bike there will still be user fees so when you go to use a bike you have an app and a credit card and as I explained there are ways for people without those types of means to have access to the bikes it's going to be funded that way and through advertising revenue there is no more contribution from the city in addition to that every time a bike is rented got your bike is going to donate $1 to GMT I saw that only for scooters and not for bikes no it's without the scooters have kind of gone away this contract has had a lot of hands on it and it's tough keeping up the latest version but it does include for bikes so that money will go to GMT $1 was only for scooters that was one of my questions it is going to be for bikes with the scooters we can get to those in a bit and GMT will use that in kind of a loosely defined sustainability fund and not quite sure exactly what face that will take yet but it's certainly an encouraging sign so it's a one year contract the contract would allow gotcha bike at such a time in the future when the regulatory framework exists first in Montpelier and then within each community each community would have a chance to say yes or no to have the e-scooter discussion but tonight I don't really want to muddy the waters because they've been significantly muddyed over the last few months on this topic which is why the scooters have been abandoned as part of the initial rollout gotcha bike wanted some momentum and again we're coming up at the end of year one assuming all goes well in South Burlington and Winniski they're looking at kind of an early to mid-August deployment of these 200 bicycles there are some locations given in the memo as well as some hopeful phase 2 locations as an expansion but again as we discussed the locations to some degree can be fungible so if we're finding that you know we didn't do the proper brainstorming and we missed a section of the population we can have the ability to move perhaps an underutilized hub to another location so no action we take tonight solidifies those as the only locations so the recommendation is for the council to authorize the city to enter into the contract and for the manager or the manager's to sign any associated paperwork are there any questions no we've heard a lot about it I think it sounds all good I don't there's always potential negatives but I can't think of what they are at the moment so I'll make a motion that we I just have a couple of questions we can have a motion and then discussion that we authorize the city to sign up okay further discussion Tim you so I guess there were no accidents last year in the first year with the bikes the question is is there any liability on the city's part for somebody renting a bike and then having an accident injuring themselves I don't know how that's written into the contract whether it's implicit when somebody rents the bike current liability there's an end user license agreement in which you accept responsibility and liability but as we all know and I'm sure we can pull Andrew up here that has never stopped anyone from limiting the number and scope of people they would seek damages from but the end user license agreement is as with the it's the same as with the existing bikes in which you are incurring that liability and you know click X to accept terms over read societally but you know no more liability than the current program we've been under for the last 11 months yeah as with most city contracts there is an indemnification sorry Andrew Bullock city attorney there is an indemnification provision that indemnifies the city and all other partners to this agreement and also you know a steep insurance requirements that we require them to maintain that a big question? since we're talking about insurance I'll ask that question first I saw the limit of $5,000 for the party but I also saw that the party is responsible so is that in case something mechanically goes wrong that causes injury to the party it wasn't quite clear which section are you talking about? under insurance right after the indemnification clause I'm not going to expense any one person $5,000 typically medical expenses are covered under the general aggregate I'd have to get back to you on what that particular provision or ask or insure what that one would entail because further on it was talking about how you know the party it's under 22 limitation of liability the party assumes any and all risks of personal injury and property damage attributable to the acts or omissions of such party or any of its affiliates to the degree that such damage is attributable et cetera et cetera to such party or its affiliates so it seems like there's personal responsibility or so I was just curious about that question with regard to the medical expenses if the bike somehow failed and caused an accident if that would be correct yeah that was the question okay the other question I had is there seems to be a contradiction in the contract it says if you wish not to continue after the first year you have to let them know 120 days prior to the automatic renewal which then can be renewed up to two times but then it said later that you have to have written 90 day notice if the the partners so South Burlington wish to sever the contract so I think there's two separate clauses in play here one is the renewal and the other is the severability that can occur at any point in the contract so we're required if we don't want to renew the contract there's a time period if we want two months into it again so not subject to the this is not nothing to renew if we want two months in to sever the contract there's another time frame associated with this there's two separate things in play yeah the more specific provision that talks about kind of a no cause termination or voluntary termination of the contract is the one that would prevail which is the 90 day so if the city at any time decided they want to opt out of this it wasn't working for whatever reason that 90 day provision would be the control I had the same question as Tim but the other thank you for asking it the other one resident contacted me today saying he was originally really supportive of this but now he's actually texted me from Austin saying he's seeing these things scattered and strewn about the city almost chaotically they did present to us and they said that they will pick these things up and we can hold them accountable they so there's a couple different things there's dock there's dockless stations there's no dockless stations so a dockless station as you can see just that you can drop the darn thing anywhere and that's what's frankly given bike sharing scooter sharing programs a tough time to get up because there's a lot of these stories nationwide we have very defined locations and if you don't return it to that your credit card keeps keeps running additionally they've they have contracted currently they're contracting with old spokes that contract is subject to either a renewal or rebid so there is a contractor that in addition to maintenance and balance site balancing does random retrievals because they're all GPS so they can find a bike and I do want to just note in our appendix D. I very much like that the bikes will stop working in Red Rocks Park oh shut off and any other location that any community chooses to deactivate or throttle down the speed limit on any additional questions so we have a motion and a second to approve and sign this contract there's no further discussion I guess I do have one I'm sorry it just came to me now if for some reason there isn't usage in an area could these areas be movable then so the areas in each community are subject to each community's approval so we told them where we wanted the rollout to be if for whatever reason it could be low usage or it could be it's a disturbance it's a nuisance to the neighborhood or whatever we can ask for a location to be moved and we are going to be getting the monthly dashboard report so we'll see all of the activity and hopefully I would suspect over time we will probably have to move or at least test other locations if we have low volume spots are we going to be putting any advertising or promotional information gotcha actually has a pretty aggressive as you can imagine a very on brand campaign that they'll launch with our assistance once this becomes official you ready for the vote all those in favor signify by saying aye okay thank you very much thank you item nine update and council discussion related to the south burlington police departments anti-bias and de-escalation training chief Burke and we also would like an update on the bear sightings if you have it I'm going to just good evening Sean Burke police chief south Burlington in advance of the meeting this evening I sent a memo to council because I didn't know there's a big topics in policing and there's a lot of things that can be discussed I know there was at least one request for some metrics and I've shared what I think are the key metrics that we use and evaluating how the police department is doing not only as it relates to bi-space policing but also use of force you know I did kind of stress in the memo that we do have some limitations as it pertains to the analysis of data collection of data probably the most or the best evidence of that is the fact that when we use force we're still filling out a handwritten report that is approved by multiple levels of the formal leadership team at the police department but then is not loaded into any database that can be used for analytics or any early warning signs and that is a place where police departments strive to go it's also a topic that the legislature had on the agenda this year talking about mandatory use of force reporting it didn't go anywhere this year because I think there is at least folks realize that there's going to be a technology cost with that kind of mandate so what I did is went through the 27 incidents that have occurred January 1 through June 1 of this year physically compared those against the police incident reports in order to gain basic information like the name of the person involved their race and then the finer details of how the police came to be involved with this subject and in broad terms I kind of broke down some of the influences that we see here in use of force not shocking we use force when we have to arrest folks and then what the trigger for using force is how much resistance active resistance a person shows us at that stage and that could be anything from someone just clinching their fists and saying I'm not going with you sometimes those folks will respond to a verbal command or a display of a level of force like a taser and then they comply people may physically run away they have to be tackled handcuffed so I kind of broke down those things as well as why is it that some people that the police use force upon why don't they end up under arrest there was just a few incidents there that were all within policy and just kind of the realities of policing but I didn't know if you had any really front burner questions or if you wanted me to go through the material that I laid out here I'm happy to do it either way do you think you can briefly go through the material because the public didn't get the memo sure sure not in excruciatingly small detail but some more general issues that the public might yeah absolutely so there were 27 reported uses of force incidents in the first six months of this year they involve 35 different people and that's simply because sometimes there are more than two combatants with the police the best example we go to an area venue where people fighting in a parking lot they refuse to stop fighting they're both subsequently taken to the ground and handcuffed so that's how you end up with multiple people involved in these situations another good example is when the police have to do a drug-related search warrant as part of an investigation they have to forcefully enter the property and in the one instance in the first half of this year there were four people involved so that's how that metric doesn't line up incident it involves again kind of the high level point the things that really kind of drive when the police have to use force generally it involves an arrest alcohol is usually present drug influence is often noted and then a growing trend that I've spoken to the council about before is when we intersect with those in a mental health crisis and I think the best example from an incident perspective about that happened in 2019 was the incident at the hotel where we had a person staying in the hotel armed with a couple of guns presenting the staff as a threat and how we had to kind of resolve that incident it went very well from an operational standpoint but in the end there was no crime committed in the end we were able to get that subject to the hospital where he could receive some treatment for what he had going on from a mental health perspective but that is probably our highest liability in the sense of remaining legitimate in the eyes of the community our ability to interact with those that are in crisis it's something that we have really kind of changed the way we're training and preparing for these incidents as noted a little bit further in the memo we invested heavily in having five officers certified by the police executive research forum and integrating communication and tactics and really when we talk about that program and the broader concept of what police are now calling de-escalation that's all about building time so anytime that we can slow an incident down create sufficient distance isolate involved parties so then we have that crucial time in order to better resource the incident and that might be better resource in the sense that we can get less than lethal munitions on the scene we might be able to get a crisis negotiator on the scene we might be able to partner with the community outreach team and learn more about this person if they're in a crisis state and think about different themes or ways that we can talk with this person in order to orchestrate a surrender generally you know these incidents only really lend themselves to the program when the person is armed with something other than a gun and if they are not so they can be associated with other people so if we can get a person that's in crisis maybe with a knife in a room like this by themselves and we can rope these doors closed and they're only in here by themselves and we can monitor them adequately that gives us a really strong advantage in bringing the right resources to bear so not only did we invest in that training we're doing more scenario based training for officers so it's not just a lecture in a classroom where we talk about these principles then we actually go out with instructors as role players and work through some a variety of different scenarios and the police officers really like that because they can actually see the new principles that they were taught in action because the role players are kind of the rules of engagement with the role players are if the officers are doing the right things then you enter the surrender sequence if the officers are not responding in the wrong way you escalate the situation until they can get it right and that has been again in its infancy has been really warmly embraced by staff and I see a lot of progress there and we see a lot of the translation on the street too another investment that we have made is in equipment so basic things like ropes with carabiner setups to hold doors closed we needed a couple of new ballistic shields because again those shields can help us in the incident of the search warrant if the officers feel safe when they breach the door they can we call it port the door but it's essentially blocking the door with the shield the officers are behind it you can illuminate the area you can again you're building time in order to give verbal commands to have people surrender it's a much different approach than in old school policing where everyone would flood in and potentially trigger a lethal encounter so it's using not only our thought process our training and our equipment but training to a degree where the officers feel safe because when they feel safe they can think with greater clarity and you know the cops here are really smart they're good problem solvers so that's all been looking pretty well you know the other metric that I wanted to look at with use of force is what that looks like demographically by race we break down here in the first six months of the year we applied force to 23 white males four black males and eight females by a raw number count the numbers don't mean anything if you were to do that by a percentage a question might be is there a disproportionate use of force involving black men and I looked at those four incidents and studied them really well and I feel as though that they were you know they were completely justified applications of force and essentially unavoidable you know in the first case two combatants at a local venue a white male a black male in a fight they don't give up they're both tackled to the ground they're both arrested very equitable application of force in the second incident it was a domestic dispute reported the officers on there and when they get on scene they hear a loud commotion in the house a lot of banging around they knock on the door announce their presence they have their side arms drawn the door is opened it is the male resident who happens to be an African American male and they find out quickly that his partner is in crisis and that's a non-criminal incident in our third application of force it was the search warrant scenario the investigators breach the door they encounter four people three are white one is an African American and then the fourth encounter that we had we had a subject that had failed to appear for his jury trial for a domestic violence case and we actually got information that he was staying in his victim's home avoiding the police and trying to move out of town we went over there I was physically on scene for this incident he was hiding in the attic so we used a lethal ballistic shield with a police sidearm aimed into the attic port until he surrendered to us so when I look across that those four instances of use of force not only are they completely justified in policy but really situations where the cops were thoughtful and the force was more than reasonable and any other questions on use of force before I move into fair and impartial policing just have a couple of comments I really appreciate the work that you put in this because it sounds like you didn't have software to easily harvest the information had to go through documents by hand so that's the thing to think about in the future because we really need better records keeping this can be dug up more easily and I really appreciate that the job of being a police person is really difficult I mean you have to be a behavioral psychologist and enforcer and there are a lot of other responsibilities and it's those pinch points where the public's bad behavior could also coincide with potential police bad behavior but training training training it sounds like you're doing the right thing to try and prevent some of those things that we've seen in the media recently like even from Burlington so that's the thing that greatly disturbs me is when there's an injury to a person of the public and an encounter with a police person it shouldn't have gone that way and so one of the questions I have is do you actively engage with the force in reviewing body cam footage of encounters that you think could have gone better even if it's in another jurisdiction and talk about how maybe how you would have handled it differently and who did what right or wrong is that part of the right so I personally don't do a lot of that work but the sergeants that brief the shifts three times a day they do a lot of that work not only do they look at the local videos but across the country and they do it for a lot of different reasons one is to be better two is to be more safe because there's plenty of videos that kind of villainize the police for better or worse when the police maybe have done something that's under investigation or questionable but there are also plenty of lessons to learn about why you don't become lazy about your trade and that there are inherent dangers that are real like you just recognized in policing and again I find that level of preparedness mentally and knowing that you're well trained and well equipped it gives you the requisite confidence to be on the street not scared because the last thing you want is a scared cop out there that thinks that he or she are going to die in any moment you have to be really really competent in your trade and you know I think as you mature as a police officer and you become a much more fluent in your communication it's a little bit easier to understand where maybe someone is coming from maybe from a perspective of mental health I mean we're not clinicians but oftentimes folks that are in crisis manifest or display that in certain ways that you become at least a little more comfortable in recognizing that this person doesn't really want to kill me they're just in a bad spot and if we can create a little time give this person a little space we can have a better outcome here but you know it is a good job I think that from STEM to Stern and the organization that we're doing the job that we're equipped to do in training and preparing officers for field operations but it's not a check the box item you have to keep evaluating what the officers are encountering in particular like what works out of these tools you know we'd have a pretty big investment in tasers and I think it's technology that does work it's not without its flaws but it was also time to look at other expenditures and we did so last year and we will be doing so from both an equipment and a training perspective in this coming fiscal year can I just have a follow-up and sort of a general question about the training and it sounds like it's fairly extensive are you finding that that has a a positive impact on the mental health I guess of your employees and does it also is it seen as an advantage for recruitment of new officers yes really that's a great question actually I do feel that Boral does see an uptick when we're in a training cycle especially when they're learning something new particularly with scenario based training again the ability to immediately translate from the classroom into the field that oh this does work so I do think that that is a strong motivational piece for officers and our ability to attract staff you know we have hired a number of new police officers over the last year and they're really really hungry to be as well versed and educated in the profession and it's nothing that I've really seen before but I think it's more of a generational thing that we're hiring or we're attracting and hiring really really smart people now and the future of the organization here is really bright lastly on fair and impartial policing I'll be quick because the legislative session was open right up until right the very last budgeted day so was the discussion about the fair and impartial policing policy and then the mandated training so when it finally got to its distilled version the 2019 mandate will be a policy review and there will also be a training module coming out from the Vermont criminal justice training council on data collection traffic data collection just to make sure that we're populating the fields with the most accurate cleanest set as possible I would like to note though in 2018 we did completely revamped the fair and impartial policing policy for the organization it's a match for the state model policy and we had already done our policy review training in 2018 we'll do it again in 2019 but what I'd like to do and this again is again some fiscal constraints is really try to identify locally a way that we can have more ongoing discussion about implicit bias and how not only that influences individual officers and their perceptions as they're dealing with incidents but we are called to probably you know greater than 80% of our work and with that phone call comes everyone's implicit bias and I think after going through Dr. Marx's presentation in 2018 understanding that the police are kind of being shot into some of these situations with the bias either implicit or explicit into these incidents I think it's really important that we as individuals understand how bias works and just have again like that undergraduate 101 discussion about this is implicit bias this is how it influences in my time in policing we've done a lot of different cultural you know it's funny they call it cultural competency training but I don't know how you become competent that you just had culture right in front of you and you were diversifying society and it really felt like check the box training but the lecture that we had from Dr. Marx was really educational and insightful and you know just really silly things like you said look in your closet you have a bias for a color and sure enough you go home and oddly I've got a lot of blue in my closet and understanding it on that level as opposed on the vilified level is plenty of room to look at that and look at traffic stop data and look at your arrest data and look at your use of forest trends but I think it's you kind of have to get a little bit before that to understand implicit bias and how did the police end up in this situation how is society in this kind of this really really adversarial awkward relationship with race and how can we as a society reconcile that in a meaningful way I think those are some of the broader questions or better questions that we're asking of ourselves question comment yes I'm I'm curious that I was trying to recall was I talking with you chief about officers going to UVM's campus and going into classrooms because cultural competency is something that liberal arts education does teach and there might be some interesting things there foreign language definitely teaches it but I understand that you know there can only foreign language issues here and so I was I was just curious if you could talk a little bit about it was with you that I was talking about right I think I think I actually had read something and had like this thought that maybe the university could be a partner in an endeavor like this but I have not further explored it and again I was waiting for to see actually what the training mandate was going to be in 2019 training council and now that I see that it's a policy review and some data work you know it brought it back front burner that I really would like to identify something that's more meaningful and try to bring that to the officers so maybe we can talk offline and I can get a point of contact at the at the university I do any other comments or questions what is a theme of affordability for some of these programs and software and things I'm just curious we have the municipal union for public safety right it's it's based on dispatch right the what the municipal authority for dispatch oh the chinay public safety authority right so that's a public safety authority right yes one of the questions is I mean this kind of training should not just be South Burlington Burlington all the members of that of that you know entity and so there's why can't there be a funding mechanism to support that kind of ongoing work or data collection within that there may eventually be I think the data collection piece in particular might follow on to the dispatch operation once it's set up but I think things like that Tim are things that we could take a look at we have already talked about hiring a person for the organization to do data collection and analysis the training piece of it would probably go well with that but I think that's something the chiefs really need to engage in in discussions I mean does South Burlington have the opportunity to train or converse with Burlington police and share experiences and what their approaches are and yeah I think I know a couple of people still over there but yeah so in fact when Dr. Marks was here that was it was led by the Burlington police because Brandon had her Dr. Marks present at the White House but at the same time St. Albans had resolved some litigation and had some seized drug funds that needed to go it was earmarked for police training so that all those things are kind of leveraged and that's the way we get anything done really in this state I mean there's 900 cops in this state total so it's not a heavy lift to do it in a coordinated way I was hopeful in a greedy way that the Vermont criminal justice training council was going to do something spectacular in 2019 and mandated it just it wasn't the case but we can definitely talk with our partner agencies and look in our own training budget for these opportunities and you know if I found something that was super compelling I know that the manager and deputy manager would definitely entertain that from a fiscal standpoint and support us if that opportunity exists perhaps we can do something with UVM I'm hopeful for that. You mentioned the criminal justice training council and I was going to ask is there nothing being done on a broader level why would the criminal justice training council not be addressing a critical issue like this that's in the news all over the country I'm just curious I mean right well when you think about the council itself are different representatives you know a police chief the colonel of the state police the AG I mean they're all people with regular full time jobs the academy staff is super small in their that was my next question why not the academy and the academy is super small and they're trying to get through two classes a year of about 40 recruits and I feel as though that the council and the academy have done some meaningful changes at the recruit level in these topics but it's reaching the in-service population and getting that caught up you know it's an issue but I also think that it's more of a need in Jenin County where our population is just more diverse well I think putting the university back on the front burner you know three of us are on faculty and it's a top priority of the university and I would think in given the proximity of the police department here to the university there should be something that can be done to form a land-grant institution there should be so I think that's something that together we should be able to make happen and it would be excellent great I just want to recognize he was here Sergeant Namdar is in the back Sergeant Namdar has been on modified duty for the last few months and he's helped me extensively with this data collection you know it was interesting when you folks were discussing higher ground earlier we had done a data set for Councillor Paul over in Burlington so I was pulling up on my phone in case there was any questions about that but only by way of our good fortune Sergeant Namdar's misfortune in having to be on modified assignment gave us the ability to you know put together some meaningful statistics as it relates not only to use of force but traffic because the traffic set was huge you're talking about 4,000 stops so thank you Sergeant Namdar for your work about that bear yes sir what are we doing and how concerned are you what can we tell the public that we're doing to address concerns about bears right so it is an interesting spot for the police to be I took I think one of the first complaints myself with the picture I knew that it was going to be important and that's why we leveraged public information on our social media platform I actually did the interface with the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife reporting mechanism it's fairly simple you can drop the pin right on the map where the bear was seen and then apparently the biologists then track those movements to determine is it one bear is it two bear and so long story short we've been in contact now with the state game warden you know I think the worrisome fact pattern here is that the bear is probably not going to run out of food source the bear is cannot be subject to a hunt in the city which is the way they're naturally kind of selected and removed and a fishing game is waiting potentially for an opportunity where they know the bear is in a certain area and they can perhaps use a rubber projectile fired at the bear to scare it out of the area creating the no creating the environment that the bear suddenly remembers like oh I can be the subject of a hunt I need to now move but I think you know having lived in Vermont for a long time the bear is also going to say hey I'm still standing that really hurt but those monsters are teased right and I'm still hungry you know so but I think it's real important that residents take seriously like taking down the bird feeders because that draws them in if you know the bear is super important too but leaving like the best scraps on top of the compost heap not a good idea you gotta agitate those in and then garbage just household trash you know folks that leave their trash cans outdoors right now a bear will come back every night to see what's in that trash can but now we know that this bear has found dumpsters down along right down by the jail it's a Klingers yeah old croissants oh we will continue to work with Fish and Wildlife I will tell you that the police department is not at all equipped to go around or around with the bear and I don't think I'm going to be able to move that on to you know a priority but we will communicate with Fish and Wildlife and hopefully assist them and be able to do their work I think I've shared like countless times now New Hampshire Public Radio has a story about a bear in Hanover bear was fed donuts every day by a resident the resident passed away the bear was a nuisance they tranquilized the bear bring him over the spine of the white mountain bring her over the spine of the white mountains but they put a GPS tracker in her she's making her way back to Hanover so higher red is always an attraction all I can say is donuts I get it doesn't she just keep reporting when they see it to you Fish and Wildlife and the most opportune time for Fish and Wildlife to catch up with the bear would be if they take if the bear takes physically a bird feeder or a trash bag of trash into the woods apparently that bear might only be going 25 or 30 yards to then kind of sort out the feed and that would be a great opportunity for Department of Fish and Wildlife to actually get eyes on it and make an assessment about next steps okay thank you thank you very much very illuminating you underscore we made the right decision okay item 10 South Burlington committees boards and commissions applicant interviews so we'll start with I think the first one is Roland Plant yes yes oh Ronald I'm sorry I said Roland excuse me I can't read good evening welcome and thank you for your interest and I understand you are interested in the housing trust funded advisory committee that'd be correct and so this would be something new you're not serving on it now okay so you want to share with us your CPA so that probably would be helpful what are some other drivers for you well as I mentioned in my application I recently retired a couple years ago and so I have time on my hands and I've never given any time to the city and so I thought now might be a good time to offer my services my background and what I've done in public accounting might be useful in this committee so that's why I applied have you yeah have you attended any of the meetings no I have not I would have one question what's the time commitment it's not very much it's not very much because that's perfect the fund is only $50,000 so you know that you can't make too many or deal with too many applications when it's that small amount I wish they had to meet regularly but we don't have that kind of those kinds of resources so I frankly don't even know how often they meet maybe once a year once a year they funded two projects Allard Square currently occupied on Market Street and they funded the building that's currently under construction on Market Street no other applications have come in so they've had three or four meetings in two years that's easy enough have you ever served on a committee either in South Brillington not for the public no no I have not would be my first opportunity any other questions any other questions for us no I don't well at the moment there are two openings and we are interested so we can't take everyone if you're not chosen for the housing trust fund is there anything else you might be interested in have you ever worked on like a charter a city charter would that be at all of interest or you really want to know the numbers an area primarily numbers but looking at corporate bylaws that's probably as close as I've come to that's pretty close I've seen corporate bylaws for businesses that I've represented from time to time mostly that's a legal profession but sometimes the accountants get involved in looking at the bylaws one reason or another so that might be a possibility trying to think if there's any other ones that we need more people for but I don't think there is that one is is looking for another person who might be interested or the charter so you might entertain that I might entertain that we appreciate that pardon we appreciate that they don't meet very often either frankly it's just every once in a while we have them look at something for the charter and they spend a couple meetings and come back with a recommendation I think the energy committee is looking for something the energy has two two openings they have six openings don't they well six in total, I'm sorry but there are four incumbents who wanted to remain is that of interest? what's the energy committee about? energy energy efficiency they've done a lot of work educating the public about how to be more efficient save water, save heat save electricity that huge contest Georgetown energy prize I'll be less of an interest for me not that I'm not interested in conserving or saving energy but they have a lot of members to crunch they haven't that well there are two members right in the back just in case you okay so just in case you energetic it is that's a possibility also okay are there any other questions? okay thank you very much for your interest we'll go through a process we hear everyone and we'll be back in touch thank you for your interest in serving the city Richard Shraik you're interested in the bicycle and pedestrian committee okay and so have you ever served on a committee before? I have not have you been to any of the meetings? I have not they meet I think twice no once a month? once a month yeah for a couple hours what day? I can't remember in the evening okay okay I'm terse if that helps oh good so what interests you about serving on that committee? I use the bike path a lot I have an 11 year old who is getting more and more interested in Crossroads 7 but on bike and on foot because it's not the safest thing in the world other questions? do you have questions for us? I'm just curious if you've been on a committee before I have not not necessarily for the city but just in general thinking about coming together with a group of people to plan I've previously worked as a library director before and had to work with advisory committees I've worked at research institutions again working with advisory committees committees who had to develop work plans for renovations to a large library and research institutions so I do have some experience in working I actually have a lot I mean that's working with different people with different ideas and getting to yes and I currently telecommute and work by myself in my house so this would actually be a nice outlet for me to great okay do you have any questions for us? I don't think so I mean I was most interested in that day and time just out of curiosity do you have any interest in any other committees? we never like to leave anybody out that wants to volunteer that's for sure because when you look at the whole city the number of volunteers is pretty darn small so anybody that wants to help we try in a comedy I mean the library committee has some interest for me but the fundraising aspect of it does not hold a lot of interest for me okay fair enough but I'm willing to put some work in just about it I mean I'm civic duty I used intersex with the energy committee so the energy about cleaner waste transportation what are your thoughts for the energy committee possibly yeah yeah because they do like bulbs is it yeah when do you meet? second Thursday in the evening it started at 8.30 okay well yeah but Richard's terse so that'd be good he's a good listener apparently and says just meaningful things short amount of words I can be helpful so that might be something I would entertain that and that commitment won't overwhelm you that's one night a week a month you sometimes meet more often than that though we do especially we have events coming up we tend to focus for participating in a lot of community events so that's extra time on top of that that would get you out of the house too yes right you'll meet more people not just the committee and I could ride my bike they have some people who ride their bikes almost every meeting what was that biking pad down or is that energy well I'm confused well thank you we'll maybe consider that thank you I just want to say kudos to the energy committee for their help with the sun carnival a week ago Saturday which I forgot to say that I attended which was a blast good you know how to have a good time they had free bed and jerry's ice cream delivered out of a model a tesla model s okay next up is dana liban and she is on the bike and ped committee at the moment yes many moons you're the longest serving member don't ask me how long because I don't even know probably at least 12 years very well so what are you finding the best part of being on the ped committee and what draws your nuts like if you could change something well the best part is passing the penny for paths and getting the public support for that and just seeing that every time you build more infrastructure it gets used and it's popular and people want it expanded so it's a I think what we found out last year is that it's probably one of the heaviest used of the city facilities you know it's like almost everybody uses it at some point every day it's infrastructure that is utilized a lot and very accessible to people and try to make it more so what would you change if you could or what would you well it's not so much about the committee but it's just about people's driving habits it's just very frustrating I live right near veterans park and I see people just parking everywhere even if they live like a half a mile away and that's really frustrating and I was just a sustainability conference last week and this piece of information it was an article by Danella Meadows called leverage points places to intervene in a system and I was sharing it with some of the guys from the energy committee too because you know we're really at the point where we have to learn to use a lot less fossil fuels for transportation for heating too but we're kind of at a critical point and you can't keep building roads and bicycling and walking is a piece of it and obviously you can't do all of those things year round to the degree you can in the summertime but I think we have to as a city take a in conjunction with the planning commissions look at how do we how do we kind of get people out of their personal cars and expand the use of electric cars obviously too but you know I think you know 2030 is really that's only 11 years away and in Vermont transportation is the number one use of fossil fuels and we have got to start thinking seriously about what we can do by limiting parking restricting parking in parts of the city you know I look at the schools and it's like how many kids are driving to school you know and maybe they have to but make it harder you know or make it a cost I think that we have to just take some lessons from bigger cities that have you know have developed transportation networks and transportation systems that make it possible to live without a car and you know and I think that bike and ped committee it's just you know we broaden our thinking to say okay let's make it easy for people to bike and walk whenever possible but we need to start thinking seriously about how do we get people out you know to do those shorter trips without getting in their cars yeah I think that just asking people is not enough yeah yeah I think so educating there has to be like you say some inconvenience taxes, taxes, taxes or tolls, tolls, tolls same thing bikes are a positive move I mean there's a lot of people now very interested people who just always were a little afraid of biking e-bikes are getting them on their bikes now the question is are we going to allow them to have enough space on the road so that they can safely you know get where they need to go because you know the pathways aren't going to support you know if you know we get three and four and five times as many people using the paths that's not going to overflow too I mean we need to allow the space on the roads as well well thank you very much you're welcome Kristiana Tulsuki you can't say correctly oh okay and you are interested in two committees one or the other I assume bicycle and pedestrian and recreation and parks so have you ever served on you're not an incumbent so this is a new endeavor to volunteer your time to the city of South Burlington have you done that anywhere else that you've lived I was living in South Burlington but I volunteered for the outright Vermont board I was on that board for four years and then any committee work related to your work work do you work yeah no committee work related to my work no I'm a full-time therapist so I see people all day long so yeah so are you familiar with have you been to any of the committee meetings okay so we have more applicants for this committee than the other ones but there is still a spot or two on the energy committee I feel like I'm really selling it's the best committee potentially yes great just I guess what drives you to I mean I see that you you are a runner so you obviously know our paths but what else the commitment to serve but just kind of what drives you I guess to go for one of the other committee not a car right yeah no I saw you I recently transitioned from I was working at the community center at Riverside and now I'm at Good Health which is the same organization but I'm feeling much more a part of the community and I really want to serve and so being a runner and a sometimes cyclist I'm very familiar with the roadways and the bike paths and the parks and so I really wanted to to get connected and try to serve my community I'm commitment of once per month is good for you okay in the evening hours energy is a little bit more active does that scare you off no that doesn't scare me off any other questions do you have any questions for us no I was wondering about the frequency of meetings but I answered that and how what's the time commitment for the energy committee we meet once a month and then we occasionally especially in the summertime we'll either participate in an events table sometimes we hope they're a very fun group they are I've been to a bunch of their meetings they're very energetic was it the affordable was it the affordable was it the affordable housing committee that wanted to expand its numbers as well was it from 7 to 9 it did go right that was my third if I could have put a third option that would have been my third option affordable housing so do we don't have any extra need on one extra on affordable housing so we just have three but okay affordable housing affordable housing affordable housing I thought they just needed three that's the trust fund no affordable housing is the first one but then they wanted to go up two more right oh I thought they already had no we approved it so it's up to nine so we have oh okay is this five part of the nine then so we have two openings okay so that might be of interest as well yeah definitely and I think they meet once a week too but I don't know when I mean once a month I don't know if it's in the evening or not no it's typically during the day at 10 o'clock on a Tuesday maybe Ronald would be interested in that affordable housing committee they actually talk about the policy and how to expand affordable housing in that community versus just making a grant during the day yeah I'd be available for that that's a possibility yes great alright well we're filling out these committees once I retire that will be okay but energy is still something that you might okay if you don't have any questions does anyone else have any okay thank you very much for expressing your interest and I hope we can find a spot for you affordable housing when she hey Don coming energy was okay for her D2 A3 hello Don coming energy committee I want to second everything Donna said about transportation it's huge we need to change the way we're thinking about transportation getting people to work from home lots of work needs to be done there anyway okay what are the questions about the committee and your work well there's lots more to do and I think the city is making progress chipping away at energy efficiency projects and why that's important the municipal use compared to the rest of the sub-brown thing is quite small but we can become a powerful example to commercial enterprises we're making business cases on changing lights street lights, yard lights building lights energy efficiency projects within the buildings all those things apply to commercial enterprises and they're very focused on finances so as we're working through these projects taking pains to estimate the savings and the costs we're going to make some powerful cases that we can go to the South Burlington Business Association with some hard facts perhaps some of you can help make those sales pitches when we're ready to do that so that's a powerful tool on the commercial side commercials pretty substantial in South Burlington you know we made some reasonable size dents in residential use of natural gas and electricity there's more work to do there back at Donna's points about transportation it's particularly difficult people live in Heinsberg and they commute to Burlington they commute right through the busiest intersection in the state so how do you tackle these things it's going to take a completely different mindset to do that so there's a lot of work to do myself and my compatriots here are willing to continue to do that I hope I can support all that you do in the future any questions that different mindset is what I think Tim was mentioning and David told by plate if we start assessing based on usage how to pay for these roads and some of these things are difficult choices to make there are incentives and disincentives working with as I mentioned we have a large commercial a lot of commercial enterprises and if we could work with them to provide more incentives to their employees to find alternative ways to get the work if we could get to them to have EV charging stations on site so that the employee who might commute 30 miles can charge his car during the day and make it home at night expanding upon CATMA expanding upon our already redesigned public transit system that done some fine work and that but some of these things are difficult choices but we need to do some difficult things things are going to be very bad if we don't do these things anything else? thank you I'm very pleased you re-upped thank you welcome Keith Epstein another energy star I get it now just a question how many years were in your three or two years done for my term probably the last two or three years okay no he's at the end of his term did you say last two of a three year term your last year yes he's been serving oh graciously since it started in 2008 I think I did miss the very first meeting he was in high school then I'm not that young or just about I'm turning 40 two days from now happy birthday early what drives you? seeing the consequences of what will happen if we don't continue to drive down our energy use the climate change consequences the financial consequences of sending money to outside the state to import our energy plus just the good feeling you get when you can become energy independent I'm in the process of converting my house to net zero energy right now by the by the time winter comes I'll be completely sure solar power air source heat pumps and a lot of insulation so is that geothermal with the air source? air source it pulls heat from the outside air and it can put it into the inside air to heat the house and as well as it does hot water so air to water heat pumps as well so actually one opportunity I see relates to the next item on your denda the noise at the airport and you yeah I emailed Helen about it I don't know if I've talked to the rest of you about it related to if the airport is going to be doing some noise insulation on the homes there may be there is an opportunity to do some energy efficiency work at the same time while you're in the house do some energy efficiency upgrades which can actually improve the noise performance as well as get some energy efficiency benefits so for the same disruption to the homeowner really extra cost you get better noise performance and better efficiency we had some conversations with the airport it was at least a year ago green mountain power Vermont gas efficiency Vermont and energy committee and they expressed some interest but it seems to have stalled and consider putting something like that I think it may have stalled and I have airport commission meeting Thursday so I will raise it again but I think I'm not certain they can use the FAA money for energy efficiency but what I what might be a possibility is at least for them to be willing to have that happen at the same time so the homeowner might be either able to access energy efficiency funds to do the work and the FAA wouldn't be paying for but just to have it coordinated I don't think they're opposed to it at all Keith it's part of the NCP process which is very tightly written down the process and all I don't think they can mention it in the context of that but I don't think they're opposed to it at all they certainly recognize just as you said that some of the improvements for noise are going to help for energy efficiency good and as an example a very concrete example the FAA might pay for a certain type of window and then efficiency of Vermont or Vermont Gas might say if you're going to install that window we'll pay an extra $50 to upgrade it to something that's more energy efficient and that way the FAA is using the money only for what's approved and the efficiency utilities kicking you a little extra to bump it up good luck coordinating the FAA with anybody pardon, what did you say? I said good luck coordinating the FAA and their funds with anybody other than the airport the consultants who this airport has hired have done similar things in the past so there is precedent that it can be done here? good not in Vermont and some other states where they work I'll forward his his letter anything else? no thank you for all your enthusiasm and it was really wonderful to hear the students not only were they fun and sort of really well versed and enthusiastic but it was just really interesting I'm looking forward to the slideshow Megan and I did have to leave really thank you Karen McKinney another energy star how many stars is that now? three that's not very good three energy stars? maybe I can't remember her name four stars is the minimum was here tonight she might become a fourth star and maybe even Ronald okay so again we thank you for all that you do in my pleasure I am going to re-app I love this group it's just a great room of smart people I learned something constantly I sort of managed the social media aspect for the committee I post every day on our Facebook page I put out a monthly newsletter it's been encouraging over the years since I've been doing this that there's more and more climate news to be had out there used to be difficult to find and now I can post several times a day about climate issue or an energy issue this is my fifth board so I'm sort of at that point in my life where I'm giving back and all the rest of them are nursing related I honor societies to educational national I'm the national chair of an education committee for cardiology and I'm on the climate and healthcare alliance which is a new group in Burlington that's been around for about a year and a half now working on the health impacts from climate change which is sort of in my wheelhouse too so yeah the asthma rates are going through the roof the ticks are becoming relatively bad in Vermont in particular but yeah it's nice to have the energy committee in my repertoire as well because I continually learn things there and I give back and it's good do you have any questions for us or thoughts or I would echo everything that everyone else has been saying I think transportation is our big next leap along with the other work that we're doing that has the most impact on climate change and it's going to be the biggest hurdle to face but we'll keep at it that's why you probably need some extra people we're the merrier you get little subcommittees and people with some maybe additional expertise absolutely I was just curious about the lengths of your term as well as Keith's terms just to keep you consistent I think Keith's been there since our three year term I think it's three as well alright thank you very much okay um do we want to let's see how many more we have one, two, three we only have three Sue can you hang on for three more people and then we'll take the break is that alright, okay Jay, pass the count seven more oh oh I thought oh there's more alright well let's hear Jay and then we'll take a very quick break just so she can and we'll make these quick so Jay you've been on there for eight years your fervent desire for the city to have a new library I know that you are working really hard so Jay you want to continue do you care which how many years you continue there's a light at the end of the tunnel oh good so which they are I mean I joined the trustees because I thought we needed a library that was in the high school way back when and we thought it was appropriate that the city have a real library of today and you know it is happening we're all anxiously awaiting that shovel in the ground to be there but you guys you folks have worked hard and we appreciate that and you know we want to see it happen any questions for Jay big thank you how many books have you read this month I don't know what kind of questions I have and I look forward to working on the library foundation just keep up the good work let's carry it forward get that shovel yeah yeah alright let's just have a very quick break for Susan I just had a very quick break oh the one this one yeah go Joe get to that next so thank you no no yeah we have racing critical studies or something um back I've had so many cookies yeah yeah oh I just thought oh she's my oh but I don't know how did you know how did you know how did you know how did you know if it might be that somebody wants every month for six months one hour session care Jay so how do you address thatwoman what do you do yeah yeah that's what usually happens I haven't done anything ready crap all day except the greats. I had a good breakfast. Well, you started your day. Thank you. I'll go hung out over the event. But yeah, no, I thought it was more like something that they want to kind of reflect on themselves individually. I'll talk with the American people more about what they're interested in. The university, that's the local resource. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm so sure. I know that there's a program of sociology, but I'm not sure if that's the case. Yeah. So it's on the inside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How are you? Very good. All right. So I'd like to call back to order the South Groningen City Council meeting of Monday, June 17th, and continue with the applications for commissions, board, and committees. So the next person up is Lee Freeman. See here? Hershey. Joseph Grandazzo. Did I pronounce that right? Are interested in planning commission. Actually, first of all, I like what you're doing because you're finding alternatives for people, expands the opportunities for volunteers, and gives you flexibility in assigning people to different committees. So in that spirit, let me say that I have a dual interest, the DRB, which I have direct experience in, and the planning commission. I'm a writer, and I thought that my writing experience might be helpful in drafting rules and regulations. And so I had a shift toward the planning commission, but I think I'm more really interested in the DRB. It's very lively. There's a lot going on. It's a lot of work. It is a lot of work. And I have a familiarity with most of the regulations. Of course, things have gone on since I've been here. That's right. You were involved in it in the past. Yeah, I was. This is the third go round. The first one was when Dick Ward was the zoning commissioner, then, of course, a ravel error. And this is my third go round. OK. I mean, I also would note that there is some conversation, although nothing has been determined about expanding the planning commission. So there may very well be openings there, but it hasn't been done yet. They have a discussion, right? But there certainly is some consideration. Discussion about that, increasing it to nine. Is it in our charter that there's nine members, or is that up to us? No, well, they have seven currently. It's up to you. Yeah. But anyway, so I mean, I know you're looking at the numbers here, and that may be part of the incentive. The city's greatest need are, perhaps, the DRB. OK. I don't know about the present time, and it's a good match for my previous experience. OK. What about your work experience? Does that, you're retired, but oh, you were with ICE, OK? Yes. What I find interesting is, I think, one of the requirements for any committee or even council is a lack of bias, either political or personal. If you're going to be a member of the planning or the DRB, you can't be violently pro-environment or violently pro-development. There has to be a balance. And I think that's one of the things I've learned in all the years I've been here is that you must have a balance between these various things. We need development. We need affordable housing. At the same time, we love our trees. It's a difficult road to navigate, but we must do it. All right. Are there other questions anyone has? You understand the workload for both of them, because you haven't served on planning. No, not on planning, but I do remember the DRB very good. Yes. Yes. It's probably only gotten worse. It doesn't scare me. Any other questions or thoughts? Yeah. I just, how long did you serve on the DRB again? Remind me, because I know I. All terms, about eight years. Eight years. And it's going to take me. I was just trying to put it into the whole picture here. Back then in 88, the zoning, the DRB and Planning Commission were one body. Yes. We split in 2001. Right. The first was strictly called the zoning board. And then I served with Tim on a DRB going back. What was it about? Six years ago, Tim? 2011 was when I joined. Oh, so you two served together? Yes. Ah. You had two stints, right? You were back in 88, and then you started again. One or two years. So I guess the question I was trying to, so you were two years recently on the DRB, but what do you think you brought to the DRB personally? Balance. A sense, as I described. You must enforce rules and regulations. And you can't have a personal agenda. Sometimes you must approve things that you don't particularly agree with. That's the nature of that board. You'd be there for the Chittenden Methodon Clinic hearings, right? Did you serve in the DRB during the Chittenden Methodon Clinic hearings? So you remember those, right? Those were lively. That's what I miss. I think the most is the liveliness of the DRB. I actually, I do enjoy that. Okay. Any other questions? Do you have questions for us? No, I'm fine. Okay. So have you switched and DRB is your first choice and planning is your second? Is that what I'm sensing? I think that makes more sense given my own experience and liking for things lively. Okay. I know. You know how to have a good time. Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate your interest in serving again. You're very welcome. Thank you. Now, I don't see Duncan McDonald. So he's didn't show up. Art, Clugo. Art, you have like a special request. I do. If the commission or the city council wishes to partake. My request is to continue serving on the planning commission for one additional year. Not a full term. We're in the middle of interim zoning, as you know, and I think it's important that there be some consistency as we get through this process. There's a lot of good work that's been done. There's still some heavy lifting that needs to be done. And the path that we're on seems to lead us to a direction that will be wrapped up within that 12 month time frame. So that's what I'm asking for. If it meets with the city council's needs, then I'm here to continue surfing. Okay. Questions. So continue serving to just one more year. Just one more year of like a two or three year term, whatever it is. Yeah. Right. I'm just giving you an advance notice that you're leaving the area. No, I'm still here, but I'm looking to invest my time in planning and commission. I'm looking to do things other than the planning commission. You know, it's an interest. But I want to see this work through. It's important work. It's a very engaged, very passionate planning commission that we have. Everybody's investing a lot of time. And we're far along with some of these things that we need to bring to closure for the city. And so I want to make sure that that work gets completed. And I'm looking to see if it's possible. Well, our tiered, since you're raising that notion, this is the first I've heard of possibly being able by resolution, expanding the seats in the planning commission. Does the one year desire fit into possibly staggering terms? I didn't know that we can just expand planning commission. I thought it was more prescribed. We're not going to do it unless they request. So my point is if you were to do the one year with that fit, that timeline, we might also add two seats to the plan. That would help to stagger the terms. I don't know. I think we have to look at, well, number one, the planning commission has to figure out. It was just raised to me and it seems like it has a possibility since the workload has gotten bigger. Yeah. The point you made earlier about the more members you have in some of these committees, the more opportunities you have for subcommittees definitely helps with moving the workload along. And as the community grows, it's only going to, the workload will likely continue to grow. The challenge is you need more people for a quorum. There is that part of it as well. Yes. That's the flip side. Right. But, Frank? I was just going to make a technical suggestion based on our request, which is you don't have to extend this term. Given you, in a very honest way, fair notice about what he intends, you just appoint him to the regular term. Oh, right. And he resigned. With the understanding of the reason. Yeah. So you keep the stagger the way it is. Yeah. You're just letting us know ahead of time, which I appreciate. And I appreciate the sentiment that you're getting really close, as I understand it, to closure on a lot of things and to have you say, goodbye, July 1, and have someone new cold come in. And part of what's driving that is I remember the challenges when I joined the planning commission. And we were right at the point of adopting the comprehensive plan. And there were parts of that where there had been so much work to be done coming in as a new member on the planning commission. Really at that point, my job was to support the work that had already been done and not bring up new issues because it needed to get passed. And so I remember that. And at this point, here we are at the same junction, really juncture, really with interim zoning and want to make sure that you can see that through. Any other questions? Yeah. Your thoughts? Let me get an extra year out of here. But can we convince you for two or three? Or play it by ear? Yes. Let's do that. I know it's not close the door, but at least we have an open dialogue. Well, thank you for your service and your candor. And yeah. You're welcome. And let me know. Okay. Okay. Don Philbert and you're interested in several things planning commission or the DRV and then potentially the library board and trustees, obviously not all three. Yes. No, I think my preference would be the development review board planning commission next and library third. I moved to South Burlington back to South Burlington last year. I lived here for three years before hundreds of years ago before moving to Williston and raising my family there. So I'm back to South Burlington and I'm retired. I have a lot of time, a lot of energy. My background is public health and I worked for the Department of Health for a number of years in the last seven years doing, being their legislative liaison and doing policy and writing regulations. So I'm very familiar with the regulatory process and I've written and promulgated regulations. But moreover, in addition to understanding policy, I really appreciate vibrant, strong communities. That's kind of a fundamental concept in public health. Walkability, affordable housing, access, all the positive things that make a community vibrant. I also understand what the gentleman, I'm sorry, I don't know who his name said earlier. One has to be unbiased and open-minded and balance the competing demands and needs in a community and I've done a lot of that. I've served on millions of committees working for government. In Williston, I served on two appointed committees. I was the town service officer and I'm just really interested in jumping in and learning more about the development and land use regulations in South Burlington. I have attempted to work my way through them. 50 pages of definitions but having written regulations, I understand how important all that is. How does the town service officer do? In theory, every town in Vermont has a town service officer and the role has diminished in recent years but it used to be that when there was a person in town who needed emergency housing, you had to find housing for them. Then in Williston, I worked with the select board. They would make special requests sometimes. For example, a woman who had lived in the community her whole life and was now elderly and with a very limited income couldn't pay her taxes. I worked with her. My background is really social work. I have a master's degree in social work. I interviewed her and made a recommendation to the select board to reduce her taxes. The role has really diminished in most communities but I was active finding housing for emergency housing for a long time which really meant forging a relationship with local hotels who would take what the state is willing to pay. Would you be interested in the affordable housing committee? Perhaps but I would rather the planning commission or the development review board. A full disclosure. I've known Don for years. We worked together when I was in the health committee. In her work. I had to use something I strongly recommend Don for any city committee. Have you been to any DRB meetings yet? I have not but I've been following them closely in the other paper. You read the other paper that's good. In fact when I first moved here last year I wasn't getting the paper for the longest time and I kept going back to the post office and now I get it regularly and I'm used to that. In Wilson we had a really good little local paper. The observer. It's a small community even though South Burlington is bigger. It's a community and there's a community, a sense of community. It's kind of fun and interesting to read local news and what's happening. You can understand in the DRB realm there sometimes are adversarial situations that occur between community members and developers and sometimes between developers and the DRB. Absolutely. Between the chair and the board. This has been ongoing for years for just different projects. You were aware of that? Absolutely. Years ago I was on the health policy council and we had to review applications by hospitals for certificates of need. I served with her on that. It was fierce. I get that kind of adversarial relationship. I also feel that I'm really pretty good at listening to all sides and using the regulatory framework to make recommendations and decisions. Because you would be bound by that pretty much? Yes. With LDRs? Yes. As a quasi-judicial? Right. Sure. Any other questions? Do you have any for us? No. Just what is your time frame for making decisions? Well, we hope to make some tonight. Oh, okay. If you need any additional information, just call me or e-mail me and thank you for your time. So you know that all of the RV meetings are recorded, right? Do you have any of the RV meetings for the last 10 years? Oh, I'm not sure I knew that. Okay. Okay, good. It'll replace Netflix for me. No. We like Game of Thrones. Right. What a fun evening. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. DRB flicks, you know? Like letters collapse and the letter D comes up and it's beautiful. Right, Frank. So, you are a DRBer returning for another term. Do not dissuade her. Please, thank you. I am. I would like to serve again. It's been a good experience late in life. I'm glad to be here. It's been a good experience late in life. I'm learning how to play nice. Trying to continue. I think it's the from my perspective a very significant a very significant body. It fundamentally shapes where we live and I find that important. I'm very interested in housing. That was when a lot of my professional career was devoted to affordable housing. Well, in earlier years it was devoted to affordable housing. I'd like to see that advanced would make suggestions for revising our our governing documents a little bit in that respect. A couple of things I'd like to change. I'd like to I don't know. Do you want to hear that or do you want to ask questions? I don't know how you want to proceed. Early on I noticed that the board in my view incorrectly decided it had the authority to deliberate in private when in fact the statute allowed that but the zoning regulations did not. I was overruled. That was one of the first things I had to digest. If there were six people who voted against you it didn't matter if you were right. So welcome to democracy friend. Pardon? Welcome to democracy. It's a reluctant necessity. The worst system ever invented except for all the others. I think that's Winston Churchill. That problem has, the legal problem has gone away because without discussing it with me the ordinance was amended to get rid of that provision and to take advantage of what the statute allowed which is to have deliberations in private. As a policy matter if it were up to me they'd still be, they would be in public. I think that the, I've thought about this about DRBs a lot not only since I've been on them but from appearing before them over the years and I think they're a place for public construction. I see no reason I don't think judges and judicial panels should be public. I think they belong those deliberations should be private but there's no reason that our deliberations need to be private. There's no reason that the public shouldn't see our thought processes and I think it would invite more people to be present and to be active which I think would be a good thing but that's an aside. That's one thought. Another thought I've had since I'm in front of you is that I'm distressed by the enforcement policy for violations of permits and the regulations because essentially there is none. I discussed that with Ray but before he retired he said well our policy is to seek compliance. Policy is compliance and that's a great policy. I don't suggest that we run an enforcement gestapo but if you never enforce then your persuasive force gets a little low. Now my understanding as far as it goes is that that's a financial matter nobody wants to spend the money on enforcement. I think that's a bad policy and I think you ought to discuss it at the council and administration level and maybe consider bringing a case or two every year so that people know that it's real. I was interested also in I didn't catch your name a woman who was here before me talking about being unbiased I don't believe there's unbiased. What impresses me is that we have a diverse board and that every you sort of know where everyone stands what their starting point is we're all grownups we have our life experience we have our biases we come in with our biases I think what you do is you start out by knowing your bias and then you get to know the board in the process of what you're doing and to the extent you don't succeed you rely on the other members of the board that's part of what they're there for I hope you'll continue to have diverse representation I find it invaluable to have Mark on the board I don't quite understand a situation why he needs to participate by phone so often but he's a better visualizer you know when you have a complex project and you need to visualize and your training is words it's helpful to have someone who looks at a plat and for whom it's an instantly a three-dimensional operation and who sees what works and I'm very grateful for that when my colleagues can help me out with that it takes me a long time to get through the plans that's a lot of talking I'd like to continue answer any question you have Do you have any questions Tim? How many lawyers are on the board now? Just two? Jennifer is retiring Brian Sullivan is there Brian Sullivan But there's a third applicant that's a lawyer Yes Do you have a third lawyer on the DRV? It's okay with me it's probably about as many as you want to have Well I mean you know it would be fine to have seven lawyers I guess but they wouldn't be great visualizers let's put it that way You think seven's the right number? I think nine might be better Seven's a good number No we don't do subcommittees Alright That's it, thank you Thank you very much I appreciate your service Good night So now we are on to Frank, how long is your current term? Sorry to bother you Sorry How long is your current term? You know I'm a little unclear I think this is a four year term but I think I took somebody's place because I've only been one for three years That's not right Alright, thank you Please Okay, well we made it through although a couple people still didn't show up but that's okay Number 11 Review and possible approval of council comments related to the adoption by the Burlington International Airport of a new noise compatibility program We looked at this letter with Paul Conner and we made a couple recommendations for occlusion The only thing and this is I mean I guess maybe your comments about the energy efficiency would not necessarily work in this letter but as an airport commissioner I certainly will push for that and I think the TAC committee advisory committee can certainly work on that as well and really get some information from the consultants if in fact that's been done other places then I don't know why we wouldn't want to do it here Any additional comments or changes that you see You did a nice job incorporating I did too, yeah Andrew did some follow up work in this as well Oh okay I can just have any questions sorry Andrew Bullock City Attorney David Young consulted I know that was one of the questions involved the school and he did relay that the school would be providing its own feedback its own letter I like the letter, do we have a deadline do we need to pass it tonight to squeeze it into the 30 days I think the goal was to get it out before the end of June there was another meeting that they were going to review a final draft and so the hope was to get it passed today I know that was Paul's goal Technical advisory committee I think meets again on the 28th and that's We had 30 days from May 22nd so I think we should get this out oh I do too if everyone likes the way it's written there's no sense in putting it off so I would entertain a motion to approve the letter as presented in resolution there's actually a resolution also oh okay that sets up the letter so a letter and resolution okay so let's include the resolution on that I don't have the resolution in my pocket it was in the prior June 3rd last year so there'd be no changes to that trusting my memory I would move to approve that resolution from our last meeting that accompanied this letter and the letter second any further discussion all in favor signify by saying aye thank you very much okay council reports from committee assignments anyone have all their bus changes want to move back today the transit is now functioning and you can download the app for GMT but we're not promoting it because we want to get it right things at GMT that kicked off today what's it called again? transit it's a swiftly back in component but the transit app we're not promoting it yet it's not working perfectly we're in some kinks out is that like an app that other communities use but if you download it and see where you live that's cool you're piggybacking me on that so we're holding our first the open space IZ committee is holding its first community outreach event this Wednesday evening 5.30 to 7.00 in this room I just checked and I didn't see it on front porch forum so I'm hoping that gets out tomorrow because we'd really like to have people show up yes and we have a second one on Saturday beginning at 10 a.m. so 10 a.m. to 11 30 and that's over in the police station and it's the Bobby Bob Miller the Bob Miller room first floor on the left right so in through the main and we will be presenting kind of our methodology for how we go about and have gone about evaluating the different parcels of 4 acres and above in the city we'll show you kind of a range of parcels that might appear in kind of a top 10 list and others that would not appear the reasons why so to educate the public on that we'll also be hearing from Jens Hilke who I didn't hear he came I believe last January it was a meeting that I missed and he'll be talking more kind of about the big picture you know questions with regard to prioritizing land so wildlife corridors water this kind of thing and we'll be taking input and then putting that into another series of community outreach meetings in July that's the plan that was good thank you that was good TDR two of those committees met last last meeting I had something I want to talk about in other business regarding open space and stormwater pond and stuff like that I'll remember when we get there it's time for it's a briefing good and the airport commission meets Thursday so I don't have a report already May item 13 May financials so yeah 11 out of 12 months down we're free line accounting says we should be at 92% and the end of May revenues were at 92.81 and expenses 92.78 and I think I indicated at the last meeting there was quite a difference between the expense and revenues and felt that the expenses would catch up especially with our pension payment we're pretty even so I'm still feeling good about end of the year budget you won't see June financials till we close the fiscal year so that will be the end of August early September but expenses are what is going to hurt us this year because we're going to be pretty close to the 100% and revenues is what's saving us because there's certain things that were unanticipated that have given us the income to cover the expenses without the need to put any kind of a freeze on the budget so where we'll be there I would expect we'll have some income left over to either put onto the balance sheet or to utilize for paving budget or however you deem best suited so we'll continue to monitor it we're watching things every day at this point as purchase orders go out and doing our best to plan our budget I saw some things under the administrative insurance and I was just curious yeah so that the health insurance as you can see is already over some of the some of the health some of the disability we combine the short term and the long term got grouped into into one so that kind of explains the difference there but the life insurance is is the biggest difference and that's because we a lot of the job positions and so when we switched over companies that's one of the things that we did through that process and didn't anticipate that the cost would go up as significantly as it did so we'll have a more accurate number for next year but we did that after the budget was put together and we knew it was going to be over somewhat but it's substantially more than what we figured is the VLCT increased due to that as well? Unemployment insurance so it all depends on how many filings that we have come in not much over but more than we need to Local options tax, you get that twice a year? Three full payments and one partial and I'm anticipating that we're going to come in pretty good Tim, maybe as much as a couple hundred thousand to the good so that's one of the areas that's helping us fire inspection revenue is going to be well up I think we're 68,000 over right now and I think Terry is holding another check that will be coming in for 90 something so that's been significant We still can't get any greater visibility as to where the local option taxes are coming from for example the U-Mall otherwise, we ask about that every year other than other than a pretty flat out you get what you get Lucky you get anything right? Numbers are right we've asked in the past the tax department to kind of share the numbers and they've consistent I think with other departments in the state have said that that's information they can't private information that they cannot disclose and raise the argument that the city state in this instance is sort of acting as an agent of the city and that that privacy interest should not be cited and there's been no positive response from the state on that so Have we ever asked our legislators like to keep bringing this up and then I forget when we have that meeting about the issues I mean I don't know if they would Just a list of addresses names of businesses and addresses that's all I want and what well so it would just be Amazon, Seattle or whatever it's more than that because I buy a lot of stuff from catalogs and for the first time every single one of them now includes sales tax and they do list each state and what you have to include so you might want to check if you get that money too. I was told by the state tax department when I did raise this that they are collecting it accurately and a lot of these a lot of companies like Amazon contract with a third party that manages this particular tax compliance and so as soon as you punch in your zip code they have an algorithm that automatically includes the local option tax. I would hope so. It's pretty hard for a computer to do that but maybe I can remember next fall it's going to take a statutory change to pry this list yeah I believe it yeah we take that the mandatory drug testing was just curious. So it's required for public safety and as you know we've had a lot of either retirements or people that have left positions on the bill so the mandatory drug testing in the uniform budgets both in police and fire are really indicative of it. It's not because of an issue. I mean they'll reuse gear as a candidate fits especially in the fire. But yeah they're required as part of public safety. Are you using that the local company that almost went into business for that for that is it urine testing usually? That we use the same one that the state uses for the mandatory drug testing trying to figure the name of the group but we've had them under contract for three years they pretty much do all the meanest possible. Any other questions? CDL related to this. So you had drug testing on that as well. The computer operations under the library what is that? So a meeting with Jennifer it's miscoded. I got to find out where she actually wanted to take that from. Those are a lot of the pushes and pulls that will be exciting as we close out. Okay moving on item 14 consider and possibly approve a collective bargaining agreement with the city hall and public works employees association. Andrew. Andrew Bollack city attorney the before you is ratified by the city hall public works collective bargaining agreement briefed council prior on the current terms that were proposed as part of a tentative agreement. The key terms of the agreement are as follows retroactive to July 1st 2018 there will be employee contributions to health care premiums of 1.25% of base salary for the duration of the contract reduction of the annual health insurance buyout from $400 to $4800 a year. A cost of living increase of 2.7% for FY19 which is retroactive 3% FY 2020 and between 2% and 3.5% based on the CPIU from August the preceding year. Bi-weekly will now be citywide bi-weekly payroll. There are numerous cleanups and applications edits and kind of moving provisions around for ease of document navigation and there's also an agreement to undertake a comparable analysis for all public works water quality employees only at total compensation packages between Colchester, Burlington and Essex to determine whether amending the wage scale or placement there on as necessary to remain competitive with other communities. Great. We approve the collective bargaining agreement with the City Hall and Public Works Employees Association. Second. Any further discussion? Yeah, the retroactive pay raises how does that impact this budget or is it next? They're in the budget. They're already in the budget. Okay. That's why I figured I was just double-checking. Okay. Okay, everyone ready for vote? I really want to celebrate everything they do. It was a long winter plowing celebration event. Get them out to a barbecue or a baseball game or something. Thank you DPW and I'm definitely going to support this vote. Right. We had planned something with common roots. So a luncheon or something, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think Carol said she could still do that in probably the end of August because this is her, the really busy time up there with their programs. But if you want me to pursue that, I could. I think it was like August 24th. Thank you for looking into that from time to time. I just keep saying. Yeah. Well, you know what? If you want to do the baseball thing, find out about it. Find out what it costs, what, you know... Well, quarter hot dog nights come up. That might not be the... I love quarter hot dog nights. Okay. So we have a motion on the table. All in favor? Aye. Okay. Now we have our consent agenda. I move that we approve the consent agenda with one question. Okay. We have a motion to approve. Okay. Seconded. And what's the question? On the on the city center contract for $14,600. Is that for using the parking lot already? Yes. Okay. I'll hold it. Okay. Because of the commitment they were making, they wanted... It will be deducted at the time. That's all right. How many spots are we going to have? $14. The dollar is spot a day, right? Right. The ability to expand a little bit if we wanted to. Not that we do. We could charge for those. But we believe it's transferable. Not that we want to do that. I don't recall that in the Boone property one. Yeah. I think it's intended for staff. Yeah. And there will be... We'll charge them. UBM charges some. That's where I take the bus. Inconvenience. UBM medical health, but they don't pay into the parking. UBM employees or faculty, we pay. Well, they got to have doctors. We're expendable. Yeah. Who needs learning? Especially higher ed. All right. Okay. So, all in favor of the consent agenda as presented. Aye. Okay. Moving on to... 17. We're writing those. Okay. Possible executive session to consider appointments to the South Burlington committee's boards and commissions. Would you like to do the other business first? Sure. Okay. I'll let Charlie, because that might just take... Oh, that's true. Yeah. So, one item for other business is... I sent you in an email but I labeled it draft minutes for the May 8th meeting. These were, if you recall, that was the meeting I was facilitating. So, what I wrote down was what I thought I heard people say and we had asked a consensus of the top three priorities for redesigning the format and intent of the steering committee, the communication with the public and address communication gaps and processes. So, we went on to what do we want to do or how do we want to redesign the steering committee? And there's a list of things. Is this a list that people think, yeah, let's do all of them? Or are there some that seem to be appropriate now? Are you okay with them? Is this a list? Okay. Work sessions versus updates, pre-meeting materials. If that's important. We are going to have official minutes, I guess, for the 22nd meeting. I don't know if we really have any for the 8th. Did you take minutes for the 8th? No. You took minutes for the 22nd, correct? Yeah. The 22nd was the last one, last steering committee. And I believe you took minutes. Okay, those are done. Because we'll want to look at them. Did we get a copy of them? We sent a copy of the most recent minutes that we had out. Okay. I don't remember what the day was. The 22nd, I believe. Okay. Okay. We sent that to the school board. Okay. I don't know. I have to go back and look. I got so many different. Could those be sent again? Oh, yeah. Okay. So, then it was all these, how do we reduce communication gaps and improve processes? There, I really, my point, I'm going to make it again, is that when we see people, you know, publishing incorrect information on things that have already been discussed and decided and signed, that we should be allowed to say a correction, I really, I find that it's almost contrary to our role, I think, as representatives and servants of the public to let falsehoods just sit out there when it's not up for debate. It's not something that we're going to see at the next meeting. It's actually discussing what's already been decided or facts. I disagree with that. I think we could certainly talk about scheduling and preparation, is that was it? And their preparation, I don't quite know what that is because normally preparation I would refrain from doing because that's talking about the city business, that's what we're currently going to be deciding, right? So I would say except for factual inaccuracies and scheduling, except for correcting factual inaccuracies and scheduling, I think preparation should be off that list. Which list are we talking about? This is the avoid joining social media conversations and refrain from electronic communications. Unless, unless, and I'm sorry, that might be my grammar. Yes, yeah. But the social media conversations should then maybe, I guess the electronic communications, the emails is for preparation and scheduling. I think that's the separation, I think that's the sharing of materials and I think that still has to be clarified. Well, maybe I think they meant development of an agenda. Then we should say agenda development. I mean, I don't know because I think they just wanted agenda items and scheduling. So we can take that to them tomorrow night. But, if it's out there, and especially when I see staff members' names out there with incorrect information and I know our staff won't reply, I can't just let it sit there. I don't know how else to say it. Well, I also sent out the copy of their policy for social media. And So there are going to be falsehoods on social media. I mean, that's just the nature of it. It's just inevitable. And I can agree with you to some extent that we should be out there communicating, correcting as much as possible because of a very public role. I'm just always feeling shackled bound by the open meeting law and that's where I use my advice to state and feel comfortable posting things there because that's not a group that we're all subscribing to. I don't know if this is different or if these rules pertain to the type of forum. And I can think of it like SB Community Watch or the other one in the Rebel Alliance. If we were all members of those things, that's where my advice that I've gotten from different voices is that if we chime in there, even offering facts or on city business, since we're all of us, or I don't know if I'm there, but four out of five of us are in that group, that's where I feel that I have been advised against it. But I think fundamentally we should be on there. We should be answering questions. We should be accessible in those large public forums. I'm just the current laws are telling me I'm not supposed to. I don't know if that connects to what you were describing here, but I think I'm comfortable with that language in some context. And in your instance, how I had an idea of a new one, but not with the others. As what I understood from some of our conversations is that if one of us responds, the rest of us just remain mute, that there's not a conversation about it. And that's something I've respected. I see Tim commenting Helen liking, Tim liking, and I say, okay, I'm going to stay away from that, right? I welcome a warned conversation on this. My advice from Chris Winters when I was talking to him is that even then, just one of us in a group that were all members, somebody out there could raise the stink. I'm not going to raise that concern, but he says that is an interpretation somebody could accuse us of not possibly warning that. So it's a vague area and there's the best guidance I've gotten from both our current lawyer and our previous one, as well as from Chris Winters is to not chime in on public social media platforms where a quorum are belonging. But again, this is an open area and if we want to, as a council, want to not adhere to that guidance that I've received and I can share with you, then that's our personal choices or council's choices and we can see what happens. I'm just personally going to do a line by that quote, that guy in line. If we're talking about something that was done six months ago, I wouldn't talk about what's on the agenda next time, but something that's done six months ago where people, you just see this misunderstanding like snowballing and there's nobody out there to say, hold on, hold on, wait. I just, I don't see why, like the budget, I know that came up, right? It was just snowballing. It was like they just don't understand what that figure is. So I went on and said, that's what this figure means. And it's just a simple thing like that that I don't see the harm. As I've said to all of you and honestly to the cameras, I'm super sensitive to open meeting law accusations. I want to do my best to abide by this while operating in a transparent manner. I just know prior to my time there was an accusation of open meeting violations because three councils were talking at a pizza party. And then there was my own picture on the front page of the Burlington Free Press saying open meeting violation because I attended that meeting at the Vermont Air National Guard. So I'm doing everything I can to serve in this role transparently and I want to make sure that I don't have any arguments to the laws restricting my behavior. But I think that service to the community vies with that. And just like attending the Vermont Air National Guard or attending the party where you were learning something, that's service too. You're taking information. So I really think that it's a fine line, right? And where I come down is if it's something that has not been decided yet, but if it's something that has been decided or it's just a, you know, what this number means in our budget book, I feel it's a disservice to sit there. It's glaring and it's just snowballing and no one can just quickly go in and say, this is what this means. And oh, okay. So I think this is a larger conversation. I think it's worth having because these things always flare up. Well, I think we probably should warn it and maybe have as the topic what do we want as our policy for social media use. I mean, I see both sides. So we should have a fuller conversation. I think it's a little different for, it's not that it's different, but on the DRB, I mean, they're really bound by their inability to discuss things, you know, on any pending application, right? Because that really poses a risk, you know, to the fair adjudication of that application, right? Even for us, anything that's pending. Well, that's quasi judicial, we're quasi legislative, so I mean, we're elected officials that are supposed to be interacting with the public, right? The point is that we shouldn't interact with each other in a way that it seems that we're conducting the business of the city on social media, right? Right. There are different ways to interpret what that could mean if it was done perniciously, right? But there are ways to work on social media to convey information where it needs to be conveyed. And I think that's... Yeah, without it being, you can still have opinion, right? But the point is you're trying to, you know, neutralize fake news, right? And, you know, opinions that are based on incorrect information. If you take me to task for that, I fully acknowledge that as a possibility. And I guess that's a risk that I've been running the times that I've gotten in there, but I felt that the disservice was truly outweighing that risk. That personal risk as opposed to the public, you know, service which I've found to be taking. So maybe we need to warn and discuss and either agree on a formal or informal policy, whichever it might be. I don't think anybody here has purposely, you know, tried to abuse anything to detriment of the city. I don't think I have read or witnessed, frankly, a couple council members discussing anything through social media. I really don't, Tom. I think it's super sensitive, but I, you know, we haven't done that. We have, some of us have put out information and responded to questions. But I think that's part of our responsibility particularly when, you know, it's like the MOU that we've all signed. I mean, that's the language is there. That's not a new policy. So, but we can have that conversation and we're all there tomorrow night, right? Yeah. That's what I thought. You had a baseball game. The Rick Markott Central School night at the ballpark. God, may have 25 sin Hamburg or hot dogs. Quarter, quarter hot. Oh, we're going to lose another one. Okay. We lost a baseball and hot dog. Okay. All right. So let's then is that, is there any other business? You had something, Tim? Yeah, it's a really small. Probably the wrong place to bring it up, but I heard that in South Village there is a swale. It's like a stormwater swale that some of the residents wanted to have it ripped out and and seeded with grass, right? And it's part of one of their cascading water systems that eventually flow into the wetland area that's at the eastern edge, right? So, you know, I don't know how Act 250, you know, works to this and whether Tom DiPietro needs to hear about this or not. This is just kind of hearsay at this point, but to me, a swale that it's a water containing, you know, like a mini wetland, you know, whatever it is, should be a naturally growing, and you're allowed to brush on these things, I think, once a year, should not be, you know, changed. It should be natural growth, right, because there are a lot of benefits to that. So, I'm just curious if anybody had an opinion, maybe not in this room, but maybe you could take that back and if any more... Someone complained about this? It's South Village, so, I mean, Ireland still runs and plays a major part in South Village, but at some point, they'll be done doing it, and then the HOA takes over and the question is, does Act 250 do those permits, like, govern the vegetation in a like a stormwater swale? Because it's not really a... I mean, it gets wet when it rains, but it's meant to funnel water between the houses, you know, because they have alleys at South Village, then they have... then the homes face each other with a sidewalk along the edges, and then there's a stormwater conveyance, you know, in there that has a natural growth in it. So, the question is, would the presence be allowed to rip out the natural growth and replace it with just grass? This is getting into the weeds. Oh, very good. Ouch. I think swales can be grass just as readily as natural vegetation. They can be. The question is, is it legal if it's supposed to be a stormwater swale, but I don't know. Looks like Kevin might... If it's a non-starter, just tell me and it's okay. I also had... Yeah, could we just discuss the issue of... or the potential issue of higher ground moving to Burton's campus? I just got an update. All but one counselor voted to approve the zoning changes. So, now we have the permitting process going ahead. So, I don't know where... Dave, I mean, you've expressed some concern for Red Rocks Park. How do you feel about this move of higher ground to Burton's campus? I really, up until this week, hadn't paid much attention to it. At all. It wasn't making much noise until... I mean, I'm excited. The talent skate park is going to be... That's sports with sports. I really hadn't given much thought as to whether a music venue and entertainment venue fits the personality of that property. So, I don't know until we hear more, learn more. Red Rocks... Red Rocks is a concern just because Red Rocks has had continuing issues, whether it's dogs or kids jumping off of cliffs or whatever it is. We don't want to exacerbate those issues. I really, up until we were communicated with from Queen City Park, never given much thought to traffic and noise, really. It wasn't something I was paying any attention to. So, I think... I don't know what our continuing involvement should be other than the fact that it's a concern and we probably should pay a little more attention, put a little more time into. I have no idea what additional permits are required. We probably need to find that out. Is that something that we, as a board, should be involved in? I feel that we should. I mean, if we share that road, it's something that's going to impact our city. Well, if Tim said just close half the bridge, we solved the problem. No, it sounds like you could really affect that neighborhood and that road. We probably... Imagine 400 cars letting out at midnight. I'll wind up trying to get across that bridge. That's not the only way out. No, it's one of the two ways out. Yeah, one of the two ways. So, I think we have a distinct interest from a community point of view, because that's one of our neighborhoods down there. Yes. But we have absolutely no recourse for other than talking to city council and the mayor's office. Well, unless they have other permits that they need. When they do have another permit. That's their permitting process. It's theirs, but it impacts yes, but if it impacts the traffic and the safety on our roads, then I think you have a dog in that fight to at least raise that issue and say, what are you going to do about it? What's the solution? Because it's a one-way bridge. Are you going to just not let them use that as an exit? Well, maybe that's the solution. But unless you raise the issue, it doesn't get resolved. I think there are some potential liability issues if you're selling alcohol and someone's inebriated and they go over to Red Rocks and jump off the cliffs and kill themselves. Then you got the dram shop laws that kick in. What laws are that? If they serve somebody and somebody jumps off a cliff and kills themselves, whoever the last person was to serve them has a liability. The server. I just think those are I don't think they've thought about that because it's not their part. Maybe we should find out by starting in order to be able to proceed and then maybe we can be a part of whatever that is. What was Andrew used to do? Non-conforming use. Non-conforming use, I think. They will have to get before the DRB before their DRB. But don't they need an Act 250? No, they don't because at least the mayor's assistant said she did not believe they needed an Act 250 because they aren't building anything. What they're doing is changing the zoning which would be a local existing buildings. If they change the zoning and that's an acceptable use they just need a administrative... Yeah, that's my concern. They just need a permit. They don't need a use permit. I don't know what to do. I think they need another permit. It was the amount of square footage so they were increasing the square the square footage of these performing art centers. We'll be charging Kevin to look further into this. We'll look into them. I think you're the logical you're the logical ones to look into it. I wish they could have just taken a little more time. I don't know why. Well they think they've taken a lot of time and requested for a long time since January. But they didn't have the information about Red Rocks Park. They didn't include us in that conversation. What are the noise complaints from higher ground today? Because there is some residential housing very close to higher ground, right? There's some apartment buildings. We got the statistics actually it was mentioned here Karen Paul asked for them. There were 100-something incidents I think. I can get that report to you as well. Was noise included in that? Not so much noise. No, she was interested in police. Police responded. Public urination. But Queen City Park, it's proximity and I don't know how it's a noise issue, right? They could be in the 65 DNL range from nine to midnight four nights a week. Not if it brings in money. We need to ask them. I think Burton is a reasonably responsible corporate citizen and I'm not sure why we didn't hear more from them. Maybe they figured that Burlington was they're in Burlington and it was you know, people miss things. Maybe they just miss the fact that they need to involve us. I don't know. But we need to find out more. Okay. Is there any other business? Alrighty. So we are going to go into executive session to make our appointments and then come out and make those appointments. But that doesn't need to be on TV. You need a finding? Or are we just moving to go out? We're going to have an executive session for the purpose of discussing appointments to South Burlington City committee boards and inviting into it Tom Hubbard and Kevin Doher. Thank you. All in favor? All right. Okay. Thank you Charlie. Charlie is done. We can't sit here and do this. Well it takes him a while to