 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucci Lotto aka the doctor here in studio with my intrepid colleague and Co-conspirator Scott Bernstein. Hey now. Hey now And Benny's in the house Roberto was in here a few minutes ago, and thanks for listening Just want to remind everyone please subscribe to our channel The podcast is on Spotify Google podcast Apple iTunes We have our video channel on YouTube So please subscribe and support us. Please spread the word We appreciate that and we've been doing this podcast for about four years now and We're it's a labor of love. We provide each episode, you know at no cost We're happy to put it out there to the public but we've mentioned this before the three of us all have day jobs and It takes a considerable amount of time and resources to put this content out each week and So we will have some opportunities coming up soon for the for the first time for our audience to Support us and that way we can continue to put out this kind of content. So Ben you want to Benny you want to jump in and talk about that a little bit? Yeah We're probably going to be doing some patreon Where we will have some added content talking about certain Famous gangsters and stuff will have our polls and discuss our polls and we'll also probably Have a go fund me page as well And we'll definitely announce that on all of our socials when we get that going and If you could please please support we'll greatly appreciate it. I know Scott and Jimmy work a lot do a lot of work researching and And they take a lot of time out of their day to do this. So please support them I'm gonna, you know Do a little like calling my shot here once we get you know the patreon up and running I Think one of the pieces of exclusive content that you're gonna get will be like another show once a week Jimmy will be there sometimes. I'll be there every week kind of breaking down Current breaking news You know anything that's kind of of top of mind Maybe we can have some you know special exclusive guests Also, just just for you know for for you know elite subscribers. So we're looking forward to that and We'll see see how it plays. Yeah, so thanks again everyone for listening. Please subscribe. Follow us on social media Twitter Facebook and Instagram so in terms of today's content We have a major announcement in terms of a major format change here at the original gangers We've decided that in order to increase our numbers. We're just going to talk about John Gotti every week So got he could know it's gonna be Gotti Capone and whitey Bolger. Yeah, so Gotti's gardener One week we'll have Gotti's hairstylist on so anyhow I'm just throwing a little shade it There's some other content producers out there and you know, we don't want to get into a back-and-forth, but I find it You know, I just a lot of it's just mafia 101 So if that's your thing like more power to you know, I'm not trying to be you know a mafia Academic snob or whatever, but I just I can't get over whether we're talking about Content on YouTube or just you know stuff you see on television or the movies that roll out You know a couple times a year, you know the big gangster movies that that come out. It's just how much John Gotti or whitey Bolger can you consume? I mean it's so We I know we play in the margins and sometimes we'll we'll touch those those Those two figures probably whitey Bolger a lot more than John Gotti but try not to Be too Generic and I think well when you know every time that I'm tuning in to some of this stuff And again, it's not just the mafia content producer on YouTube It's like when I'm on the bio channel or the history channel. It's like, okay. Yeah, Sammy the bull and Right Carmine Galante and Paul Castellano and Al Capone and Albert Anastasia being killed in the barbershop It's like oh Yeah, and obviously, you know, we find all that stuff fascinating too, but we when we started this podcast many years ago Scott and I were on the same page that Hey, we didn't want to just hit the same cliched, you know, Italian mafia topics That we wanted to talk about all the different families not just New York But Philly Detroit Boston Chicago and we didn't want to just talk about the Italians We wanted to do episodes on African-American crime groups We just did an episode on the Russian Mafia a few weeks ago Irish gangs Drug cartels so anyhow, I if I may be so bold I think that our show stands out from some of the other shows and even some of those shows were friends with some of those people and We're happy for them But they're very New York centric and and very LCN centric and we try to be a little bit more diverse here Although today's episode will be about LCN, but we're gonna make our way to the windy city Yeah, so we have a Chicago based episode. We've had some requests for Chicago content And we're gonna mix it up a little bit some some current events, but also tied to some historical stuff. So Pretty pretty sensational stuff. So Bernie, you want to start us off with yes We're just gonna do a little bit of news and notes if you will some outfit related headlines that have broken over the last couple weeks and Let's start with the fact that the last Codependent from operation family secrets that historic landmark Case brought against the Chicago outfit back in the mid 2000s That resolved 18 previously unsolved mob murders the last defendant from that case that will see freedom Has now seen freedom Polly the Indian Shiro Was released It's been in prison since oh five. So, you know, we're talking, you know, 17 years behind bars Was one of 14 defendants in that operation family secrets case and I was fortunate enough to be in The court when that when that trial took place as a young buck reporter in Chicago Covering the the case for Chicago magazine as well as writing my second book family affair shameless plug go buy it on Amazon try to give me a royalty. I have yet to see a royalty from that Yeah, that's a great for 10 plus years, but Polly Shiro is home He actually might be Not in Chicago. I believe you might be in a halfway house out of Arizona because Polly the Indian Shiro was Chicago mobs crew boss in Arizona in the 1970s and 80s and Got caught up with the Tony splottero group he was a one of Tony splottero the Tony the ant the guy that you see in the movie casino played by Joe Pesci that was You know one of Polly Shiro's longtime Childhood friends and was part of Tony's regime out on the West Coast and was running things in Arizona for him Got convicted of playing a role in a murder one of those 18 murders and family secrets It was actually the last no the second to last murder to take place, you know timeline wise and those murders ran from 1970 all the way to 1986 and Shiro was was convicted of Being a lookout or getaway driver for the murder of a guy named A meal little vow a meal little now Vachi and he was a Old-timer living out in Phoenix he traces roots to Chicago and was you know running some some travel junkets for them Was he a maid guy and he wasn't a maid guy. He was an associate kind of hanger on Was part of Polly Shiro's Crew in Arizona and there were worries that he was being subpoenaed to testify against Splotrow at that time was Not just in hot water with the mob, but he was in hot water with the feds so this was like I Want to say a week or a week or two before Tony splotrow met his maker and was murdered, you know brutally Him and his brother you see it in the movie casino, but about a week or two before that He orders the murder of Mal little Mal Vachi Polly Shiro's involved in it. He's convicted If family secrets and now he's out 85 years old Is probably the Indian when when little Mal Vachi was killed in 1986 June of 86 He was 74 so he was an old guy Wow So That's that's a move on Then we have the The death unfortunately of one of the Chicago mobs biggest Bookmakers out of the Cicero crew And we're gonna talk a lot about the Cicero crew in this in this episode Greg Polly and Was Armenian that was a was a top Bookmaker under Jimmy I and Dino aka Jimmy I aka Jimmy the ice pick There are some people that that Claim that Jimmy I and Dino is running the outfit now, and he's the top guy And this was one of his closest friends Polo Ian had a number of Gambling bus he was actually under indictment When he died Did some time in the late 90s early 2000s for book but book making loan sharking and racketeering and Was very close to Jimmy I and Dino so he passed away Couple months ago, so the end of the summer so RIP to mr. Polo Ian and I'm trying to get an age on him He was 67 years old so presumably he's he was kicking up directly. Yes, and He had a two-and-a-half year present term that he was got to do for the most recent book making Conviction but the judge let him out of the medical and he died at home So in that case who would take over his book? I have no idea, but somebody someone. Yeah But this guy's been running a big big sports game sports gambling operation for the Cicero regime Dating back to the you know, the 70s 80s and and one of the things you know, this was like This is you know, this is mafia 101 In terms of how the you know the right hand moves in the left hand follows so You know Polo Ian would be this was this was the case that he took in the 90s, but You know guys that that would be betting with him would get into trouble They didn't have the credit to go to a bank So Polo Ian said oh, don't worry. I can I can help you out go see my good go see my friend Jimmy I yeah, and Jimmy I will loan you the money It's a vicious it's a vicious cycle right there's a great FBI surveillance Audio recording that's online that you can get on YouTube if you just go to YouTube and you you type in Jimmy I and Dino And it's from I think it's from the mid 80s or late 80s and they got him on a on a wire talking about a guy that owes him 200 bucks and It's it's it's it's a it's classic man I and Jimmy I just you know choose into this kid and it basically like if you're not in my Bar by six o'clock with that money you don't owe me a thing Like and you're now, you know, you're you know, you're playing you're playing dice with your life Like so you to bring me the money or you don't owe me anything and now I'm gonna come in and crush your head in Yeah, and he says it and the last thing he says, you know, I'll break every bone in your body If you don't bring that money well, so yeah, so that was who Greg Polo Ian was was sending his His indebted gamblers to so just to go over the mechanics of it I don't want to digress too much, but just it's kind of interesting to think So if you owe this dude money and he dies, there may be some debtors who think oh There we go. I could just wipe the books clean with this and that's not how I'm sure whether he's still kicking up to Jimmy I or not and that remains to be seen I think the case that he Just took in the last couple years I and Dino was not Implicated as a conspirator as an undated co-conspirator, but I've been told by people in Chicago on the street that that Operated that that that sports gambling operation that Greg was running was still kicking up to Jimmy I so yeah If you I would say that if if you were someone in these last couple months Since Greg died if you thought that your tab was being wiped clear, right? I would say you know go to Cicero go to the currency exchange that Jimmy I spends his Afternoons at and I'm pretty sure you would tell you that you're you're sadly mistaken if you think that debt Is wiped clear just because Greg is no longer with us, right? And then the last kind of small Headline that I'll touch on before we kind of get into the the meat of the episode Also tying back to family secrets one of the co-defendants in the operation family secrets case Mickey Marcello big Mickey Just copped a plea in a case with the feds where he's gonna do about four months For stealing he admitted to stealing twenty five thousand dollars in social security benefits just got sentenced this week the week before Thanksgiving and He will report to federal prison in January and we'll spend the winner of 2023 as a guest of the federal government. He's 71 years old right now. I believe his brother was the number one Defendant in family secrets little Jimmy Jimmy the man Marcello was the boss of the outfit and And You know, it's I think it's It's a it's a job hazard. I mean in that world whether you're you're 2555 or 75 If you're living your life making your living Racketeering or trying to cut corners or trying to cheat the government, you know It's gonna catch up with you and it and when you're someone like Mickey Marcello and you got a giant spotlight on you and your family Especially after, you know, I think he did six years and family secrets or six or seven years and family secrets It's been free now for I know about ten years Something that stood out to me when I read your article on gangsta report and see what you think about this is First of all, well two things first of all This is becoming a big racket for organized crime groups Yeah, so this is especially with this group these like baby boomer Mobsters that are now getting into their 70s from yeah, and they they're finding ways Yet it to short chains of government or We just I just wrote about something that wasn't related to Italians but was related to Armenians in Los Angeles where they found loopholes bigger than they found they found well they found loopholes in Government tax benefits for using biofuel instead of traditional gasoline. Oh, oh, right, right? Just finding different ways to cut into the government. Yeah kind of more white collar, right? But I know the Eurasian crime groups like the Russians Armenians are big into like insurance fraud Against Medicare Medicaid Social Security So that's what I was gonna ask you the second thing that stood out to me was when you look at the scale of some of those operations I thought $20,000. That's that's nothing. Yeah These groups are ripping off the taxpayers the indictment that came down in 2019 So it's been in the court system now for three years The indictment was for 45,000 but even so Cases yeah millions right. I mean they're scamming the government for millions of dollars So doesn't that play to my point though that if you're Mickey Marcello if you're a member of the Marcello family You're you're gonna you're gonna have a mic a microscope on you and you're gonna be scrutinized more than the average Yeah, yeah, and also it's it's easier for them to make cases against the Italians because they've been doing it for decades They have informants Some of these like Eurasian crime groups The Justice Department is still playing catch-up with trying to figure out sometimes They don't have translators to understand what the fuck these guys are talking about and in their they bug their social clubs and what have you so It's interesting. Yeah, that That you can make cases against the Italians easier So the guy may go down for something that's really only a fraction of what some of these other crime groups are doing But and so what and I'm sorry, what was his sentence again four months? Okay, let's slap on the rest Yeah, but I could be mistaken But I'm pretty certain this is the first Codependent from family secrets to get in trouble with the law Yeah, after his family after his role in family secrets was adjudicated and he did this time For the family secrets case, I don't think any of those 14 defendants some are dead But some are but some of them are are still alive and some of them are allegedly still active and Mickey Marcello was the first guy Post family secrets to be back in trouble with the law and and in fairness to the to the criminality of mr. Marcello That may be all that they were able to account for in terms of forensic accounting Presumably they probably took more than than $20,000, but that's that's what they were able to get them on and maybe there's there's some parts of the Marcello story that I am unaware with unaware of but Knowing that Jimmy Marcello right now who's you know, 70 years old Was convicted in family secrets convicted for playing a role in the murder of the splotcher Brothers that that brutal Strangulation beating stomping That that that you see in the movie casino. That's a very brutal brutal heinous scene Marcello was the guy that drove the splotchos to The slaughter the kill house. Yeah, it wasn't isn't was never alleged to be involved in the murder itself Again, that's not to say that Jimmy Marcello never got his hands dirty I know he was a suspect and a number of murders including murdering the The two men that he held responsible for the killing of his dad and that's how Jimmy Marcello actually Allegedly was made his bones His dad was an outfit lieutenant who got murdered an unsanctioned murdered an unsanctioned murder in the early 70s And and Jimmy allegedly by Italians other yeah, yeah avenged it No, I mean who killed the old man who? Another Italian guy that was unsanctioned. Okay a loan shark victim of his I see Marcello was going to collect a loan sharking I see that and the loan shark killed him And then that loan shark and that loan sharks bodyguard ended up being killed in the months after and Jimmy Marcello was alleged to have done that to avenge his dad's murder. So I'm not trying to paint him as as a As someone that isn't dangerous because he he is but I don't agree with having someone like Jimmy Marcello having to serve his time and Florence, which is the super max. Yeah along with You know terrorists. Oh, yeah, and guys like Vinny Bassiano who I'm not You know, that's not where I'll chop. I'll chop was it is I think I'll chop was it. Oh, yeah He was in New York, right? I'm pretty sure he's an adx now But Vinny Bassiano's in there Because he was trying to put out murder contracts on judges and prosecutors Joey Lombardo who was also in the family secrets case was the conciliary I'm died in in Florence super max because he was trying to put out a murder contract on a judge So I get I get that if you're trying to you know, put out execution contracts on public servants You you deserve to spend your time in the most maximum security prison possible But at least publicly it's not known what Jimmy Marcello did to Warrant having to do his time in the 23-hour underground lockdown you're out for like a half hour in like a cage It's the worst of the worst when it comes to incarceration by the federal government and it's and it's designed for The absolute worst of the worst and I just you know, did they score Jimmy Marcello? It was a bad guy and was a gangster and was probably a killer Or was a killer, you know, he was convicted of it not of doing it with his own hands But he probably has done it with his own hands But I don't I don't believe in this will actually kind of get into where we're going also about kind of our ethical and moral beliefs in in terms of Incarceration and capital punishment. I just don't see why Jimmy Marcello has to live out the rest of his life in a supermax for simply being involved in one mob related murder So do you think that this is like a trophy for like judges and prosecutors when they could get someone in supermax It's like a notch on the belt like I'm a no-nonsense tough on crime, you know So even if it's severe and maybe the worry Is that Marcello? even though he's been locked up since 2005 has had some type of Say on what's going on, you know in the streets Right who's also in supermax Larry Hoover the head of the gangster disciples So, uh, which also I find a dubious. I whatever we had an episode on that We talked about that. I Think that's a dubious claim that he that he has I don't think he has as much influence on the street as Uncle Sam thinks but that's another He's still I'll tell you with Larry Hoover and I get I'm digressing there, but with someone like Larry Hoover Particularly to to this applies to really only two people Larry Hoover and Big Meet Demetrius Flannery the two most Notorious iconic African-American crime bosses that exist right now They For better or for worse And you we can talk about you know who you know who we prop up as heroes But the and we can debate that but the fact is both of those men hold sway over not thousands not tens of thousands not hundreds of that they hold sway over millions of people and That I don't think so not Hoover. I really don't not I hold sway. I'm not saying anyone under 40 I don't think cares about what Larry and in Chicago I just Larry Hoover's name in the street is like you know, the kind it's like a combination of John Gotti Jesus Christ and And Tommy from Goodfellas. I mean Larry Hoover is the definition of notorious. I'm not saying Larry Hoover is sitting there puppeteering The entire gang sort of disciples organization from from lock up the way that the federal government tries to make it seem I think I'm saying the reason that him and Meach scare the government is because of how much influence No, yeah, I can see that but I I think some 20-year-old gangbanger in Chicago if you told them here's an order from Larry Hoover Oh, yeah, I think you'd have I think you'd have some yes some choice words for you about I'm not just I'm not I'm not I'm not what you can do with that what you can do with that order. Yeah, so the legend versus what what actual Influence they have, you know, we could get into that the semantic but Back to the yeah, so that is a Chicago topic. Let's let's talk about a Murder that was carried out by the state of Arizona last week It was capital punishment The man's name was Murray Hooper He was a former member of a Chicago African-American streaking known as the royal family royal family was connected to the Chicago mafia and Did muscle work and murder for hire for the outfit and Hooper was executed again via lethal injection and He is the only the second person to be convicted of a organized crime related offense to Receive the death penalty only the second person in 80 years first since 1999 and Before 1999 the last You know mafia related execution by the state. It was lepky lepky book halter You know in New York went to the electric chair This is what the 50s. I think it was the 40s 40s. Yeah, and then David leisure was a Syrian St. Louis mob enforcer that blew up Another Syrian mafia boss in St. Louis in 1980 I don't even know if that deserves the the death penalty, but you know, he was put to death in Missouri in 1999 and then last week I had no idea this was like scheduled Or that this was, you know, I'm the Horizon until until it happened and Murray Hooper There's a national story. Yeah, and he was 1944 by the way, Louis lepky book called a Hooper was with 76 years old. He'd been on death row for 40 years And this was a Chicago mob related Murder and and just like the ones we've been talking about Earlier the show with the splotcher brothers This was was gruesome. It was heinous It shocks the conscious conscience and You know, just I'll try to give a these are civilians quick synopsis. It wasn't like a gangster's not that that's okay But I'm just saying it's particularly gruesome when they're civilians I think so try to give a quick, you know, 90 second synopsis My 90 second synopsis always lasts like nine minutes, but I'll try to keep this short so as we said before the Chicago mafia had a Arizona branch that was operating in the 1970s The Cicero crew Was being run by Joe Ferriola Who would go on to become the boss of the Chicago mafia in the 80s, but in the 70s. He was running the Cicero crew He had two nephews one very very infamous Outfit hitman Harry the hook olemann who was half Mexican, but but his his mom was Joe Ferriola's sister and Rose pretty quickly in in the outfit even though he was only half Italian Was a fully inducted member became captain of what was known as the wild bunch and one of the most legendary You know hit squads in in Chicago Underworld history. They were an enforcement unit Underneath Ferriola and the Cicero crew they were Connected to you know well over two dozen gangland homicides When they were active between the early 70s and early to mid 80s so Part of Arizona before part of that Arizona Crews job was to help Tony Spilacro in Las Vegas Launder money that was would eventually make its way once it was clean would make its way back to Chicago But it needed to be laundered and the outfit had legitimate businesses set up in Arizona California and in Florida to Push dirty money through and Another one of Ferriola's nephews a guy by the name of Robert Cruz who went by the nickname fat Bobby Was dispatched to Arizona in the 70s. He wasn't in Phoenix. He was in Tempe, which is right next to Phoenix and and Was running drug rackets and helping Spilacro and those guys fence stolen goods that they were stealing in Vegas and pushing through The Phoenix area and at one point Bobby Cruz gets introduced via a associate of his to businessman in Phoenix by the name of Pat Redmond Patrick Redmond who owned a printing company called graphic dimensions, I believe and The Chicago outfit thought this was a perfect You know a shell a perfect vessel rather to launder money that that someone like Pat Redmond wouldn't You know alert or wouldn't arouse suspicion The cone like his partner was the one that Approach the or like the partner That was that was the person was kind of sketchy right that like was the con was the So there was so Bobby Cruz is stationed in Arizona a guy that Bobby Cruz is doing business with nose Pat Redmond's partner. Yeah, okay, right and Pat Redmond's partner I Can't pronounce the guy's last name Doesn't introduction. Yeah, Bobby Cruz gets it in his mind that he wants to use this printing Company and tells the guys back in Chicago. I got a great new way to launder our casino money and Tries to take the business over first they they they play nice and they kind of finesse it and they try to kind of whine and dine Redmond and his Partner and offer them all these contracts with Las Vegas casinos for printing printing gigs to be lucrative thinking that They were going to be enticed to let the Chicago mob into the business and Pat Redmond was you know pretty sharp guy and it wasn't having any of it and Told Bobby Cruz and his and his crew to get lost at that point Bobby Cruz and Joe Ferriola and the guys back in Chicago decided to kind of pivot to a hostile takeover approach and the hostile takeover included the murdering him and If you believe the government taking over the business through the partner and the partner's wife Eventually they wanted to if you believe the government killed the partner to and the wife the partner's wife was allegedly in Conversations with Bobby Cruz and and the bad guys if you will she would eventually be indicted and I think she was convicted at First and then she had her case tossed out but So December 1980 They put a hit out on Pat Redmond and they're not just going to kill Pat Redmond. They're going to kill his whole family and Bobby Cruz knew these African-American Gang members from his time in prison Murray Hooper who they called hoop or hoop the Hatter. I think there was a reference to Albert Anastasia that that Hooper was a bit of a wild card when he was When he was free and was known for for wet work or for heavy work You know in the streets the royal family was a That's a great name For a for a drug gang or whatever came out of kind of originated out of Statesville Prison in Illinois and then eventually from you know once they got outside They still kept the presence in prison but we're kind of set up on the west side of Chicago and started doing a lot of muscle work and Cruz recruits Murray Hooper and Willie Bracey who was another member of the royal family flies him out to Phoenix in early December and they they orchestrated drive-by on Redmond as he's leaving one of his favorite watering holes and they're unsuccessful Hooper and Bracey go back to Chicago and Then Cruz two weeks later three weeks later decides they're gonna do it on New Year's Eve And he flies Hooper and Bracey from Chicago into Phoenix and I believe the night before New Year's Eve and on New Year's Eve Pat Redmond his wife and his mother-in-law are preparing for a New Year's party. And that's about I think five o'clock six o'clock at night and Hooper Bracey and a dirty Phoenix police officer named Ed McCall Break into the house Take all three of them into the bedroom Tie their hands behind their back put like pillowcases over their head and then shoot them in the back of the head and Cut their throat rob the place What they weren't expecting was that Pat Redmond's wife survived it And then McCall the dirty cop is guilt-ridden and on New Year's Day Confesses this girlfriend who then goes to the police and the whole thing unravels Pretty quickly. So that was what Murray Hooper did to Receive the death penalty at his trial. He was convicted in 1982 was given a death penalty in 83 and The other guys also received the death penalty Bracey and McCall, but they died in prison before and Cruz was convicted to Cruz Cruz is an interesting cruise at five trials He was tried five times for this case four convictions four reversals and then finally he gets acquitted in 1995 after being on death row for 13 or 14 years Comes back to Chicago, but only last two years before he's murdered and You know It's neither here nor there, but there's some speculation that that Harry Olliman who was Going on trial in 1997 for a murder from the 70s His cousin fat Bobby Cruz Was very high on this attorney named Kevin McNally that had gotten Cruz off on this on the fifth in the fifth trial and But that was a state case in Arizona You know Harry Olliman was facing a case in in State court, but it was in Illinois and Kevin McNally was a young attorney from Arizona that probably was out of his depth going to Illinois and handling Something like that, but Olliman trusted Bobby Cruz From people I talked to that were in the courtroom McNally kind of fell on his face during the proceedings Olliman was very upset and You know Bobby Cruz ended up disappearing three days After being seen in court at Olliman sentencing where he was sentenced to life in prison That was the last time he was seen in public and then Olliman If you believe this theory Called on some of his buddies in the wild bunch to get rid of his own cousin at that point Fariola The uncle who was the Cicero capo and then Eventually the outfit boss was had died in 1989. He couldn't protect him. He died of a bad heart When you obviously this is just speculative, but from studying this stuff as long as I have usually When a guy like dad gets whacked The causes are over determined, which is a pretentious term. I'm borrowing from psychoanalysis Which means there's more than yeah that there might be a cattle There might be like the the tip of the or whatever like the you know the boiling point, but usually there's a series of Infractions or things that like You know enough is enough and this person's a wild card and wait, you know, well, I think there was Like the exploratory too. Yeah, I think there was also some belief that The reason that Bobby Cruz got sent out to Arizona in the first place Was because people in Chicago didn't like him. Yeah, and Fariola Was trying to help out his nephew by getting him out of town Yeah, and basically pushing him off on Paulie the Indian chiro who you mentioned in earlier in the episode We just got out of prison for the family secrets case who was running things down in Arizona um so I don't think Harry olemann Although was incredibly Feared people liked Harry olemann. Um, I don't think anybody really liked fat Bobby Cruz They were both feral as nephews. It's interesting to me that they were Mexican Yeah, I mean, that's something that I mean, we know that that the outfit just like Detroit is known for having your multi-ethnic associates but If they were allegedly fully inducted members That that's I don't understand how that how that can happen because the Marcellos I'd like how we're able to there's a lot of synergy in this episode um The Marcellos were or are they're both of them are alive the Marcellos are half irish Oh on their mom on their mom's side. Well, that's something that uh, we know, uh, at least in Other families they've loosened the restrictions on so like if your mom is Not italian, but your dad is a hundred percent. You can you can be made which back in the old days You know, you had to be a hundred percent And and if you really want to get technical about if you go way back There were guys like Bonanno who would say you you couldn't even be italian. You had to be a hundred percent Sicilian or else so like, you know, they they didn't even like guys who were like calabres or uh, uh, you know, um Nabila Don getting getting made they did they wanted you to be Sicilian But but there were too many guys like Capone and Jennifer There's too many non Sicilian guys who were heavyweights and then so but you see all you see all this kind of cross pollination because um you have Almond and Cruz who play a role in this Uh in this drama, they're both half Mexican you have The half Mexican guys in the outfit reaching out to the african-american Um street gang members. Yeah Uh, so, you know, it's not as Cut and dry when you're talking about, you know families like chicago and detroit specifically those two families who are very equal opportunity a lot of cross pollination a lot We don't really care what color your skin is or where you trace your roots to if you can make us money if you can Do something for us Could be killing people um Or you know in alman's case, uh, you know, he was known as a very very proficient Killer and that's how he climbed the ranks and You know, I was talking to jimmy off mic and he asked me well, you know Where do you think alman's trajectory? Would have been if he would have not got caught up with Uh, you know, we and he died in prison 10 years ago of lung cancer but you know, he don't he'd he In theory he could still be alive right now. He'd be in his early 80s Uh, and I think harry alman if he doesn't get tripped up, um You know, he's a guy that it could have been a boss could have been a an administrator definitely could have been a capo And I mean, we know like in the outfit you've had guys some high-profile guys like lefty rosenthal. You've had uh What was that greasy thumb? Goose and then you had tokyo joe Kenny canido right but with all of those guys none of them were made so many lennie patrick Lenny patrick. Yeah, the jewish, uh, right. He was a big deal But yeah, so let it's a perfect example though in chicago. So Lenny patrick Ran the whole north side of chicago. He was a big deal He ran rogers park he wasn't Officially made because he was jewish, right, but he had an equal amount of authority Yeah of any guy any made guy that wasn't an underboss a conciliary Or you know, one of the bigger capos, but Lenny patrick at at at one point was probably you know If you were going to do an outfit a power index, I mean he was in the top 15 Yeah, and and out of a fair out of an organization that I had, you know, over 100 people and it's also the comparison with detroit We've talked about specifically with the jackaloni crew that the east side guys took on them that was pretty much also siblings, but um With the jackalones your your status was about proximity to power So it depended on how close you were to the jackalones more than if you were a made guy Or not and they like messing with the blacks. They like messing with the jews They love messing with the middle easterners. Yeah, and they made them a lot of the greeks and those four different Ethnic factions made the jackalones a lot of money. Yeah and buried a lot of bodies for them Yeah, and if you if you were close to the brothers, then then you had a lot of street status Maybe and we had patty noton on before that by the way that that video is on I think youtube I think that is accessible to everyone now right the patty noton Episode yes, it is on youtube. So she was undercover de agent infiltrated the the jackaloni crew And she even said in that episode that that some of those jewish racketeers because they were so close to the brothers That the made guy telling guys would have to defer to them like soldiers Would have to defer to some of the jewish guys because again proximity to power and she got she got her hooks into al-haydi yeah, um it sounded like she was Almost became al-haydi's girlfriend or at least al-haydi. He thought yeah He thought that she was his girlfriend right and you know an al-haydi was one of billy jackaloni's drivers and You know one of his you know go-to emissaries or aid to comps, you know someone who relayed messages Yeah, and you know she talked about being in a you know in a booth at the golden mushroom or dimitries with al-haydi And you know everyone around there is treating him. Yeah, right like he's the godfather. Yeah, right when he's just Yeah, the godfather's guys guys guy. Yeah, yeah, right right So I think you sometimes you had a similar thing in chicago But with all those cases an al-haydi by the way was I believe syria. That's why I think he was middle eastern Oh, yeah, I don't know. Maybe it was irish. Oh, he's yeah, I don't know. It's a good question I think he was middle eastern Um, but but he wasn't italian. Well, he was the point of making right But with all these guys in chicago or detroit though None of them are none of them are made and so I still find it curious that alamon and cruise Could have gotten their buttons. I don't know. Let me be clear. Bobby cruise did not have a button I don't think bobby cruise had a button. I don't think he he was anywhere close to having okay. That would make sense He was a a true Lacky, I think yeah But harry alamon did have his button and I do believe harry alamon was was on the fast track Yeah, to you know a true shotcaller status If he you know if he's able to be free In the 80s and 90s in 2000 because if your dad if your dad is italian But the name doesn't sound italian That doesn't matter because as long as there are so some specific examples There's a guy in philadelphia back in the day martinez Yes, even though his name was spanish. He was italian, but they call that on the streets They called him spanish frank the name is because of the name but it had nothing to do with him actually being spanish, right? and in Castellamare a heavyweight back in the day was diego playa which diego playa That's the sort of both spanish names first and last name, but he was a hundred percent siciliano he was from castellamare and so um, it's it's not it's not terribly uncommon for um uh, you know guys to have well, I guess it's It's not common, but it's not necessarily uncommon for them to have spanish sounding last names even if they're from italy But alamon i mean that that's This guy that doesn't sound italian. I've never heard of that his you're saying his dad wasn't italian He's from mexico. I think his day was born in mexico. It's just really unusual. Um For the for him to be made i think at least as far as i can it is unusual it is unusual, but We know that the chicago outfit and detroit were talking about these two midwest families They didn't go off that traditional new york blueprint. Yeah, and they they weren't beholden to them like some other Groups would be like the philly group always had to check with new york. Yeah, you know the the um You know that's what Detroit and chicago never had to check with anybody Yeah, they did things the way they wanted to do things and if and if doing things meant that A guy that maybe wouldn't have been made in a new york family getting made You know They don't even do the ceremony This is a bronos that pick me thing in the jersey either mean something or But you either mean somebody doesn't butchie They don't do the gun. They don't do the knife right um, well one just I'm packing a little bit. I don't I'm not someone I don't believe in capital punishment. Yeah, let's talk about that for a moment You know in principle, I don't agree with the notion of capital punishment um And I think they're when we're talking about this case in particular You know jimmy and I have have done our our own due diligence You know in terms of going through the court files and looking at how this thing went through the court system and Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying he's he's innocent but It seems like there were a lot of question marks with the convictions with Uh, throughout the you know what we found out throughout the appellate process and with the And from that learning about the police work that was done to achieve these arrests and convictions There was you know, there were things that were you know a lot lots of shades of gray Yeah, I think um, and it's not to say this guy was a virtuous guy because he clearly had a record he he actually It's kind of only scratched the surface and talking about him. He seemed like a bad guy Uh convicted of killing his ex-girlfriend his girlfriend of a manslaughter in the 60s That's how we met the outfit in state prison from serving that uh sentence and then The couple weeks before this new year's eve massacre. He's involved in another triple murder In chicago. Yeah, but there I think there are some enough red flags here, too And by the way, just as a rule, we you know, we don't talk about partisan politics or ideology on this show It plays a role in a good reason, but in this case, I think we are in other episodes We will talk about criminal justice policy So there's this sort of gray area where it's not sort of overly political But it is criminal justice policy and and I have uh Yes, some issues with this decision to execute him and I'm not with capital punishment I'm not not something like bleeding heart like um, then there's other people I really don't care if they get put to death, but um um but I think the the The system has to have integrity or else that I think there's some problems here and it seems like You know, there were no there's no forensic evidence linking him to this Um, in fact, the only thing they have on them is the eyewitness testimony of the the wife the wife pat remins Wife who survived While her husband and her her mother were both murdered. Yeah, and and um, uh One questionable tactic here was when they Had the lineup to her somebody Put their arm on a Hooper Which is um, I mean that tapped them on the shoulder like tapped them on the shoulder as this is the guy As Marilyn Redman is being is flown to Chicago for this Lineup. Yeah, and they bring her in and the the detective that's Telling her, okay I'm gonna go get the guys and as the detectives lining the guys up in front of her Before he leaves. He like taps one of them on the shoulder. Yeah, which is Murray Hooper who she then She then identifies right and that's really bad policing and and another thing was um, the weapon Is still in the custody of the Arizona police And um, I don't know if it would be state police or phoenix pd, but either way, um Or the the ag whoever whoever has it down there, but um, they didn't test it. They could test that for Forensic evidence to either yeah, they're exonerated or convicted afraid of what they're going to find Right, which might be that he that is his DNA is not on that knife And so it seems like there was some politics in this decision by the attorney general at the time to appear as a real tough on crime and push through this death penalty case Contextualize contextualize it. I mean where we are in 2022 you know, Arizona is is a as a hotbed Of political debate. Yeah, you're dating back to the 2020 election. Yeah battleground state and it's a state that is pretty traditionally uh Red, right? Oh, yeah, John McCain. Yeah Yeah, although they don't like him anymore down there that because he went against because he went against Trump But the uh, it's it's increasingly becoming a purple state I would say purplish leaning red But but the point is purplish means it's a battleground state and like there's a lot at stake, right? I'm saying the fact that this happened Now it's been 40. This guy's been on death row for 40 years Right Um, and they decide to execute him in november of 2022 Right in smack dab in the middle of the of the midterm Um election cycle that seems like it was to score points. It was to score points with the electorate and uh, as opposed to real justice, uh for the families and again, it's not to uh, Make i'm not making the argument. I again, i'm not an expert on the case But i'm not making the argument that this he was a great guy. Um, maybe he did have something to do with it He he certainly checks off a lot of boxes that suggest he did have something to do with it But the death penalty for with with no confession no forensic evidence and uh, and uh, uh, uh, a sketchy eyewitness testimonial That seems to me pretty weak to to justify even for even if you support capital punishment as a policy Um, Roberto's sending us a signal, right things up. Um, so, um, even if you support capital punishment morally Uh, it seems to me like that's some pretty thin Yeah Evidence to to go all the way because that is you know, that's the worst punishment. You can give someone but so we'll shut this down I'm just gonna uh read to you Murray Hooper's last words Um As he was you know going to get the jab. Uh, he said it's all been said Let it be done Don't be sad for me. Don't cry or say goodbye Say i'll see you later. Yeah, so let's go Uh, and and then one thing i'll mention that the state of their state of arizona needs to get This aspect of of it cleaned up. This is the second execution, uh carried out by the state of arizona Via lethal injection where the medical techs Have had a very difficult time completing the job And uh, it it's prolonging a very very difficult and and yeah, uh Mentally anguishing situation for i'm sure for the person that's being executed as well as the family members of both You know his family members and the victims family members. Yeah, uh, so, you know, everyone You know you got to be on point for that and I think in this case Uh, he actually looked uh looked at the crowd as it was going on and being and because the people are watching him Be executed and he basically said can you believe this like they can't even kill me, right? Yeah, and he and by the way for whatever it's worth He to the very end said he didn't do this right and you can say well, what do you expect them to say? But if you're going to be executed either way, um, You know, I and he did have he did have a will end with he had an eyewitness Uh a female that claimed that she was with him at a new year's eve party in chicago Yes, right, right. That's right. So he had a decent alibi. So but anyhow, it's fascinating Sometimes we will dabble in criminal justice policy even though we we usually stay out of politics But if it's cj policy and organized crime related we we will get into it. So anyhow, um, let's wrap up Uh, good episode people have been asking for more outfit episodes. So we're happy to provide that Uh, again, thanks for listening. Please follow us on social media and please subscribe I'm jimmy buchelano. I'm scott bernstein. We're out