 other places. Welcome to Think Tech Hawaii, a rule of law and a new abnormal, whatever that might be. And we have with us today, Professor Emeritus Bernadio Randall, University of Dayton School of Law, one of the leading scholars on race and the law, and also Professor Emeritus and Davis, University of Toledo School of Law. And Ben's going to start us off since the question of minorities and minority rule came up. And Professor Randall raised the great question, what do we mean by minority? And what's in your background? Well, I'm going to lay down like this so people can see it. Can everybody see it? Yeah, African-American soldiers. Yeah, this is Buffalo Soldiers, May 1st, 1945, in Genoa, Italy, in a parade that was happening at that time. And you'll notice that all the Black soldiers there are each, I think, carrying an American flag, a star and stripes. And this photo haunted me, because I'd seen it a while back. It's a guy in Italy who is an Italian who was totally into the Buffalo Soldiers and has done all kinds of research on, I'm going to come forward now, named Alessio Parisi. He's an Italian who's just passionate about the Buffalo Soldiers, and he and I have been exchanging, and my dad took a lot of photos when he was one there in Genoa, back in World War II. But this photo was one he had, and it just moved me because these are the things that they went through as Buffalo Soldiers with racist commanders and inadequate equipment and all kinds of things that they had to put up with, yet they were still fighting. And then you see them here walking proudly in there with the stars and stripes. They brought tears to my eyes because you know what they're going to deal with when they come back to the States? 1945. You know what they had to deal with? You know, all that stuff. And you know, I know what my dad dealt with coming back from all that. And yet at that moment, you capture their, you know, these basically what they were fighting at that time with fascism, totalitarianism, racism, freeing the Italians from all of that stuff. And then they were going to come back to the States and you'd have to deal with all kinds of horrendous stuff in 45, 46 and all. So it, you know, a lot of times these World War II great generations explanation always omit these people. Like you look at the movie Saving Private Ryan came out 1999. Or if you look at the movie The Longest Day back in 1962, you don't see any black people in there. But the fact that D-Day, the barrage balloons that were there to ward off the German airplanes and not the airplanes were being run by Buffalo soldiers. There were black people at D-Day on the beaches. But the kind of sanitized history that we get from the movies and otherwise, we don't hear about these things. It gives you this kind of twisted vision of what the history was. And we actually, this part of this reason I just wrote a piece for jurors coming out around the 18th was because here in Hudson, Ohio, you had an army lieutenant colonel named Bernard Kempter, who was invited to speak on Memorial Day through the local Hudson, Ohio event, right? And he was talking about the History Memorial Day. And so he wrote a speech and the organizers wanted him to change the speech, but he refused. So then he goes ahead, there's a white guy, okay, white veteran, and he gives the speech. And part of it is talking about right after the Civil War, there were black former slaves and black freedmen who disinterred or I guess exhumed 200 Union soldiers at Charleston in order that they could each get a proper burial. And that was one of the backgrounds for what we have is Memorial Day. Well, when he got to that part of the speech, the organizers turned the mic down for two minutes so no one could hear him say this. And I was like, how bizarre, how much disrespect for his uniform, how much disrespect it was for him, and how much disrespect it was for those black freedmen and former slaves who honored those Union soldiers by taking them out of the ground and making sure they had a proper burial. And I felt it was like kind of a profound arrogance to try to whitewash that history or sanitize that history for the people today by turning down the mic so no one in that little town of Hudson would do 92% white and 1% black. So they wouldn't know that history. And that really kind of ticked off. Much of what's going on in the society today about fighting against critical race theory is really just about fighting against accurate racial history. Because accurate racial history would require people to behave differently. My dad actually was, and I keep wondering if my dad was in Italy in 45. Yeah. And, and came back and, you know, we are when I do do a lot of work on Japanese American history. I when I before I left Ohio, I often spoke at Japanese American events on in permit and stuff like that from the legal point, not from the experiential point. Yeah. And one of the things that I learned from them is how their parents never talked about the internment. Yeah. And that it wasn't until, you know, the they had grandchildren who start questioning them that they begin to open up about it. Right. And I realized my dad never talked about his experience in the war. Never, never. And you have, you know, that had to be a rough experience. And I have always been convinced that a large part of racial progress was because people was fearful of the black men that they had sent off to kill over an ideal that they didn't have back home. And, and that I and was unsure of what long term response would be if they continued because to just, you know, if you think about the end of the war and the change in segregation, that was pretty close together. And I think that having all those black men who had learned how my dad was a Demolition specialist who had come back from the war, knowing how to blow things up. Yeah. Because he had been taught how to blow things up. And that there's some but there was a lot of respect shown for the flag. And it still is more than. Yeah. Well, Chuck, if I could just jump in on that. Professor Randall's got me going. So, well, the thing that I think is that the this sanitized vision of history that I know I learned when I went to predominantly white schools integrating them all the way up. Okay. Or even as I've seen in those two movies I mentioned in the longest day and say with private riot. But another one that we should speak about is with NASA and hidden figures. I remember watching in the 60s, all those moon shots or whatever they were, the spacecrafts up and being so totally excited about that, what was watching that happening. You know, I mean, I was part of that same feeling of everybody kind of amazement at what they were doing and all that. And yet I had never seen any black person anywhere in any one of those, you know, mission control pictures or something like that, you know, and then to low and below learn 40 years later that there were these black women who were so bright and brilliant who were crunching those numbers with God knows maybe not even a slide rule, but making sure that that that would happen. And I think that man imagine if that had been known in the 60s, how many little kids would have been so inspired to think about going into engineering and math and all that stuff from seeing those people, you know. It's this kind of sanitizing history that has this detrimental effect on all these kids' aspirations because they don't see anybody who look like them. And they're being told that it's not something that they do, but in reality, they are able to do this and there are people doing it and we just keep hiding them. You know, that's it. But I would think that okay, I grew up in a segregated community and everybody around me was black. My teachers were black. My doctor was black. My dentist was black. There was the black priest who came to the school even though it was a public school. There was a I mean a white priest who came to the public school to do religious classes. But other than that, my frame of reference was black people could do anything. Because that's what I saw. Except racism. That it wasn't that racism, the issue wasn't whether or not we saw ourselves capable of doing anything. The issue was that even when we saw ourselves are capable of doing anything, a racist society gets in the way. And that's how come there's this big push to keep racial history out is because to the extent, and if you have a generous reading of white people's motivations as a whole, that to the extent that they know an accurate history, they're likely not want to repeat the path. Right. And to the extent that they don't have an accurate history, they can as a group, they can maintain the view that it's not us. It's them that we, the reason why we don't see more black people in this and more black people in that. Well, if I can go again, Chuck, I'm sorry, is that the president, I guess the dean of Morehouse, Benjamin E. May, who's raised generations of Morehouse men and all that stuff at Dorothy Black College, one of the things he used to say is that when the president of the United States is looking for somebody to do something in your field, let it not be because of your lack of preparation, better and all that stuff. Let it be for some other reason, which was the racism thing. Basically, that if you didn't get that slot that the president of the United States was designing, it's not because you weren't the best at it and all that stuff and all that, but because some other thing, which was his euphemism for talking about the racism that wouldn't allow you to get ahead. I hear that in what you're saying is that same kind of attitude. You can do anything, but let it not be because if you're not being prepared to do the work and all that stuff, that you are not able to do it. Let it be that other thing that we got to deal with, which is in the water, which is the racism. I went to integrated schools from first grade on. The way it looks to me is that essentially, what I was was the one black kid or maybe one or two black kids at a 95% white school getting the benefits of the oppression. Because that school with all the resources and all that stuff, I was getting the benefits of that education. I guess all the teachers were white. I think even if I remember right, the janitor was white too. Literally just white, white, white everywhere. That's from 61 on. These schools had provided benefits to these kids from K through 12, go on to college, go on to grad school and all that stuff. With the networks, these schools have in the updraft, so to speak. I like to talk that you get from being in that school. One of the things about the arrogance is you can think that, my God, I made it on my own. Everybody works hard, okay? But it's like, well, maybe you worked hard, but you had an updraft keeping you up there alive. As opposed to the downdraft that was pushing down on those kids at the school you were going to, that they're trying to get through the downdraft. You see what I'm saying? No, absolutely. I mean, privilege, all kinds of privilege is important. I was just talking with my son about black sport people who are exceptional. Not just good, but exceptional. Yeah. And there's always a case to be made, and I think this is also true with whites, that often they might have some physical characteristics that helps them to excel in their work. But putting that aside, they also have privilege. And I was thinking about Simone Biles, who I really just love in her work. But then I realized she had the privilege of growing up with grandparents who owned a gym. Yeah. She wasn't just this girl off the street who parents brought her in on a weekly basis for lessons. She was in an environment that trained her from childhood to be that. And I think that goes to what you're saying about being trained from childhood to have that. I want to get to the title, Artisan Minority Rule. What did you mean by that? You know, I think that's what we're exploring right now. One of the things that this path of conversation brings out is that what we're treated as and classified as the minorities for purposes of exclusion from rights, from privileges, from opportunities. Did things, and that picture in the background of Ben is a classic example that brought honor and dignity to that term minority in ways that could never have been imagined. And for me now, not just as an English major, to look at what the press is calling minority rule by certain Republican Mitch McConnell tactics and things like that is still really that white supremacist rule that we've been talking about. Why the media continues to engage in this false narrative for what we've seen for dozens, hundreds of years as the reality of what people have, who have brought honor and dignity to the classification of minority are still facing. So exploring that meaning, who gave it meaning and who's trying to take it away may be part of what we suggested. It's not bipartisan. It is extremely partisan. And for me, I find this interesting because I am politically in a minority that never gets recognized. I'm not a Republican. I'm not a Democrat. I'm a socialist. And there is the what's frustrating to me is the Democrats and Republicans talk about partisanship and talk about bipartisanship. And I like the idea of them saying by because they're recognizing that they're only going to recognize two groups. That's what by means to and they are not prepared at all to open up the elections to open up the neither the Democrats or Republicans. The Democrats are Republicans are doing a lot to restrict individual voting rights on a state level. But the Democrats are working with the Republicans to restrict parties access to the ballot so that socialists can't even get on the ballot to be voted for. And then on top of that, and I've had a senior moment, which I have a lot of these days, where I lose the thought that I had is that they have so constructed the Senate. You know, I'd like this idea. We have this history of filibuster. Yeah, when you're always talking about original is filibuster wasn't a part of the original design. Okay, so it's something that came up later. But the filibuster that you have now isn't even a part of that. Because now you get the filibuster just by saying you don't there's not 60 votes. And so it's become it but not Democrats aren't talking about to the extent they're talking about filibuster. They're not talking about well okay, keep the filibuster. And let's just go back to a talking filibuster that that if you that if you you know you get up you stand what was it Mr. Smith comes to Washington or what was the name of the if you want to filibuster you got to stand there and talk and that if you quit talking we take a vote and whoever has the most people in the room at the time. No, Democrats and Republicans work to get rid of the talk because that was hard. And it was hard to maintain and it was hard to do. They've set up a form of filibuster and and they don't really talk about the easy fix to the extent that it is easy which would be make it a talking filibuster. Go back to the way it was 25 30 years ago and say okay yeah because I personally although I heard something this morning that started has started make me thinking I personally am forgetting the rid of the filibuster but this congressman I'm personally for not getting rid of filibuster because I think that Democrats and Republicans are going to go in and out and to make it too easy to change the laws will be we will have on a federal level what we're seeing in the state that that that whoever when you get them if you get Republicans if the Republicans get the House the Senate and the presidency they're going to ram through laws but this senator this congressman said something that made me think and I've been this morning I was listening to a podcast and he said that he sort of thinks the opposite will be true because if you see a law is going to pass you tend to want to get on board to put your stuff in it too and that there might be more bipartisanship without a filibuster because people will be afraid that the law will get passed without them having their input their needs put in it so I think protection I think in a racist society we always have to think about the racist laws that will be passed and how you can you know block them stop them and change them and I'm not right now the you know the the partisan I agree with you that they have our the impress is articulating this in a very narrow way when it would be more helpful if they looked at it in a larger content. Well Chuck I'm thinking about what Professor Randall is saying is the you know the way that the press expresses thing. Professor Randall is pointing out that the whole bipartisanship focus misses the fact that there are other parties beyond bipartisan that should be part of the debate and that the rules that restrict in each state for the election all that just two major parties are actually undemocratic okay then there's another one that comes to mind that I'm thinking about as we had all these debates on tax stuff about the tax rate going up with the tax rate going down and then lo and behold we find out that for the 25 top billionaires that's not even the game the game is over on another side with regard to capital gains or whether you get a loan that is secured by your your shares and stuff like that you live on that loan and that loan is not considered income and I mean there's all these games that can be played so that this arguments about raising or lowering the maximum tax rate is actually just a distraction because the game is being played someplace else and no one's really talking about or you can you can look at the you know this whole thing about what is it house house one the people for the people that versus the John Lewis act right and so Mitch McConnell who is a dissentant of slave owners I'd like to remind people of and he seems to not have been humbled by that or learned from it but the thing is that he says he's against that for the people act and so then everybody starts switching over to John Lewis act right with the John Lewis act you understand is basically perspective in other words you're going to have all these 400 laws that are going to put in place they're going to screw up and voter suppress everybody and then you're going to get the John Lewis act which is only going to work on future law not on the ones that already in place so you know it's like again it's like distraction distraction you know but the real game in the background is a brutal brutal nasty game of domination that we have to be aware of I like to say that people need to be innocent but not naive and we need to actually push back on these kinds of games or you know ruthless games that are being played in at the state level and otherwise I also wanted to mention something about the Japanese Americans because as part of what I wrote this next week I read I watched a presentation by Senator Daniel Inouye the late senator because I had heard somewhere that he had been a Buffalo soldier when he was in the Nisei and they fought in I know they fought in Italy and all that so I watched this hour-long presentation I didn't see him where he said that so if someone out there in Hawaii had sent me the thing that shows where Daniel Inouye said that he was a Buffalo soldier I can add something to my June 18th piece that's coming out about that because listening to him talk about what they went through coming from Hawaii to go and volunteer to fight in World War II and what their particular battle group had to deal with was really moving and you know coming to the states and what they had to deal with you know being Japanese Americans being sent to Mississippi you know the only thing they knew about Mississippi is he got lynched there and they also said that in Hawaii in the movie theater the the the balcony section was called nigger heaven and they had no idea why it was called nigger heaven in Hawaii that's just what was the term they thought it was because it was black up there it was dark up there okay they didn't know the southern history of the you know of segregation of the movie theaters where the blacks were up in the balcony and and the whites were down below it was just a thing that was out there in there you know in in the in the country it was just fascinating listening to it last thing I'd say is that they took I'll just add this they took him to an internment camp as a Hawaiian in Arkansas and the people there had set aside some places for those soldiers to the Hawaiian American soldiers to stay but they said no please now take back your place we're just sleeping the trucks and all that and he said we were all loud voices before we went to that internment camp in Arkansas but when we drove back from Arkansas to Mississippi every single one of them was silent seeing what those Japanese Americans were going through in those internment camps and what they needed to do to show respect for them that moved me man I could understand that feel he's got you know gun towers and turrets and all that stuff you know what I mean traditional protectors of the minorities against the tyranny of the majority are the court system correct what do you think is the proper role of the court system to protect the minorities oh wow so I mean another question is about if the courts were traditionally supposed to have the role of protecting the minorities against the tyranny of the majority what's the role of the courts now I don't think the courts have had a traditional role to protect the minority rights I think the court has had a traditional role of maintaining a balance in the dominant value system and has functioned mostly to protect protect white supremacy and and within that framework they have extended and in protection of minority rights in a way that doesn't challenge white supremacy and so I that Ben I would go along in the sense that the structure of our government of separation of powers and federalism was supposed to provide a double protection to the rights of the people so that they would each of these competitions between the different parts would end up protecting people's rights but when we talk about minority rights at least from an international perspective a lot of times there's international instruments that we think about with regards to minorities like the convention elimination or racial discrimination or other things like that and one of the problems with the United States is that even though there is a ninth amendment of the constitution that says that whatever rights are not reserved in this constitution are left to the states and to the people we have a very limited amount of jurisprudence about those unenumerated rights which are human rights okay at least there may be other right and so the problem with the courts I tend to think going along with the attitude and view of professor Randall is their limited vision of what their role is which tends to mean it's a conservative structure whether you have liberal or conservative justices who are essentially going to do minor money minor incremental improvements at all if at all and they may be reversed subsequently as the political environment changes so but I think that part of the real issue is that there is really little if any understanding or appreciation for the concept of basic human rights in the United States that each of us has as a human and that the courts are supposed to recognize and enforce I think that if there was more of that terms both purpose and effect of legislation and things like that then the courts could play a more would play a more robust role but the way that the courts work the way con law works the way all that stuff the way you're trained in schools and all that it's basically to have a sort of very narrow very sanitized very very minimalist vision of what a court is supposed to do even within the idea of cases and controversy and that's the state or federal level and so to wrap up this session that may drive us toward another question which is as you see the politicization of the appointment process and thus of the composition and direction of the court and the court leadership how does that impact this a balancing issue yeah I would also like to next time or sometimes soon to talk about the issue is the issue of human rights in America and why there's so little human right actual human rights are enforced by the courts and and built into our system and I think that's that there's a wonderful legal discussion because I think people do understand that America may be low very low on the human rights scale yeah hold that pot and we're out of time for today but maybe that directs us toward a question we can think about or when we come back in a couple of weeks and do join us folks as who is a minority and what the minorities are who they are the honor and dignity that they bring to it as that changes will these other things change will the white supremacy attempt to continue to co-opt minority rule to suppress people who were minorities but are not going into the future what's our direction let's think about that let's come back in two weeks professor Randall professor then thank you for your time your thoughts and your passion about this