 Hello everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of a new and ancient story. We're talking with Nupun Mada today. He's the founder of Service Space. We're going to be talking about kindness and generosity and non-monetary wealth and especially those small simple acts of kindness that may seem invisible, but that actually can have enormous effects on society and politics. So a little bit about Service Space. It's a project incubator. Global. It's got something like half a million members. What's really amazing to me, what really impresses me about Nupun and this project, it's, it's, yeah, I mean, he's got a lot of awards, the Dalai Lama Unsung Heroes Award, things like that. But what really impressed me is just that from the beginning, he's refused to sell out or monetize his success in any way. Makes him feel like a real brother to me and somebody that disarms my cynicism and inspires a lot of other people too. So I'm really happy to have Nupun on the show. If you want to find out more about him and his organization, go to servicespace.org. So here we are. Charles Eisenstein speaking with Nupun Mata. Is my saying that right? Yeah, that's good. That's gone. And Nupun, we've met a couple of times now, not many times though, twice, I think. Yeah. And I knew about you a long time, even before it was called Service Space. You called it Charity Focus or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. That's way back in the days. Yeah. And there was something about it that I found, like, there was kind of like this almost ascetic rigor or kind of vigilance that appealed to me somehow. Because you said something like, you know, we will never monetize, you know, never cash in, you know. And on the one hand, that I'm a little bit wary of that kind of like, yeah, we're going to be perfect, you know. But there just seemed like a kind of purity around it that appealed to me. Like, like it was coming from a deep insight into the whole psychology of money. And so that's like my earliest impression of you. And then, you know, I was at your house one time and then we were at that event. But anyway, what is... Yeah, I know it's been beautiful. I think for us, it's not about being perfect per se, but I think it's about aspiring to really broaden the idea of capital. I think we oftentimes just think money is like, even to create social change, you need to have money even to, you know, for your livelihood, you obviously need to have money. But it, we, I think, expanded scope far beyond and we minimize the scope of so many other kinds of capital. So I think our commitment was, let's explore these other kinds of capital. And that's been, you know, that's been a 15-year journey and it's a process because there's so many things that the traditional sort of systems are very good at. And there are so many paths. And part of the reason why they're good at that is because there are so many paths that have been grooved already. And when you think of these other kinds of capital, they're sort of, you know, off the beaten track and we don't know. But we as humanity ought to discover them. We ought to pave those paths and make it easier for the next generation. So that's been our endeavor and it continues to be 15 years later. Or rediscover them or regenerate them. Maybe they're not new. Oh, yeah. I think, as Gandhi said, you know, all this stuff is old as hills, but it's forgotten. So how do you, and I think there's also a challenge of creativity. Like, how do you, how do you manifest them? How do you make them applicable in today's era? I think Gandhi did so brilliantly. It's not like non-violence was new, but he was able to demonstrate its practice in, you know, in a setting like India and South Africa before that. In a way that was relevant to that culture. So I think those are the, you know, that's the call to creativity that we have. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely not new. I mean, it's in the New Testament. It's in like the Dao Le Jing. You know, it's, it's. Yeah, it's super old. So, so what are some of the new and ancient kinds of capital that you're talking about? I think the biggest capital is this idea of inner transformation. And again, this is like, this is probably more ancient than ancient itself. I mean, you know, I don't even know how to put a timeline on it. But I think we're wired with this idea of, of, of, you know, I think in a propensity towards aligning ourselves with the flow of nature, I mean, it's hard to describe these things, but I think there's a tendency, there's a innate awareness in us to know when we're off. And I think we want to align with that. We, we're wired in that way. And so I think, you know, how can we use service for us, for me? The journey has been, how do you use service as a way to create that inner transformation and align with, you know, being harmony with nature. Nature, not just on the outside at the level of, you know, trees and rivers, but also nature within us. And so I think that's been, you know, that that's been a significant part of the journey. And that's a significant resource, I think that we often underestimate, like we think that, you know, to get people to do stuff, to create change in the world, we need to motivate, we need to have capacity. And that capacity is so rooted in a kind of material resource, like money is certainly a manifestation of that. But there are these intrinsic incentives that, you know, I mean, how many hours are donated just on Wikipedia alone? So at some level, I think that's, that's a resource that's always been around, but it's undertapped, underutilized. And I think what's new is how technology allows us to creatively put those together and create, you know, manifest new solutions. That I think is a very, you know, the way we can organize people and small amounts from many people is a capacity we didn't have prior to the internet, for instance. And now we, you know, now we have that capacity. I like that you, I'm intrigued by your use of the word capital to refer to inner transformation. It seems like, so when I think of capital, I don't know, etymologically, I guess it means the head, you know, decapitate is to remove. But to me, I guess in this context, capital means a form of wealth that generates other wealth. So inner transformation or these states that, that are accessible through service, through kindness are indeed, like there are kind of wealth, like you feel wealthy when you're doing that. And they also generate more wealth, you know, for your life and for other people. Is that what you have in mind when you talk about capital? Yeah, I mean, I haven't looked at the, you know, the root of the word. Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know, but yeah, the way I made it is I think that you can create a lot of value with that resource and it's regenerative, you know. So I think the more I smile, the more I want to smile. The more I do an act of service, the more I want to do an act of service. The more I'm kind, the more I want to be kind. So I think that capacity where versus like it's, you know, I need to be motivated by so many other things. You know, if I'm at a corporation, for example, you get a salary. And then if, you know, to do harder work, they give you more money, right? And a promotion, which kind of pads your ego. And that's a very different process. That's good for some things in the world, but this is an entirely different process where you're rewarded just intrinsically by the mere act of doing it. And it's so generative. So it's like this incredible capacity that we can unlock to create, to alleviate so much suffering in the world, you know. Right. Because you're not saying, you're not saying, you know, do, you know, practice acts of kindness and service because of this thing you're going to get in return, you know, you're not offering an extrinsic motivation, which is kind of, you know, to take the logic of capitalism and exchange and transaction and to kind of export it on to some other realm and say, you know, okay, now we finally have a reason why you should be kind, like it's, this is, I mean, you know, we're, we're, I think, moving beyond reasons in the normal sense of here's what you're going to, here's how it's going to benefit your, quote, rational self-interest. Like, what do you say when someone says, well, Neupin, why should I do it, man? Why should I, why should I perform selfless acts and, and anonymous acts of kindness, you know? I, I, yeah, sure. I mean, I, I would just say, go out and try it and see how it feels. And it never fails, right? Like it's, it's, it's one of these things where you, if you actually pay toll for the car behind you, and that person never actually comes back and closes that feedback loop in a material sense, you still feel like an expansion in your heart, in your being. And that is our true trigger, I think, for continued acts in the future. So I think it really starts small. So before, if, if your argument is you should go out and change the world and there's all this suffering, I think that is a much more difficult argument. And I think it also creates so many layers of abstraction. Whereas here, it's like, you know, no matter who you are, no matter what position you're in, you can do an act of kindness. And when you do that, that itself will be the trigger. You'll want to do more, just try it out, you know? And there's so much research around this. I think Michael Norton at Harvard did this thing, even with money. He says, you know, you can either go shopping with this money or give it away. And when you give it away, like your brain just feels better. You know, even if you're a skeptic going into it, you know? So I think there's something really deep and true about that. I want to read you like a little bit of a little essay I wrote on. It was the topic was philanthropy. And, yeah, charity, philanthropy and individual acts of kindness. And I'm kind of like setting up a cynical leftist critique. OK. So the. So sure, treating the domestic help well, giving to charity, housing the homeless, even walking an old lady across the street, these are all nice, but they do nothing to change the exploitative, ecocidal system of global capitalism. On the contrary, charity, philanthropy and individual acts of kindness only perpetuate that system. Here's how. One, by ameliorating some of its worst consequences, they make capitalism all the more palatable. Two, they divert altruistic energy toward relatively innocuous goals instead of toward addressing the systemic foundations of injustice. Three, they appease the conscience and make one's own complicity more acceptable. And four, they generate a codependent relationship with the needy in which the charitable enterprise depends for its survival on the very conditions it ostensibly seeks to address. So, you know, what can you say to my, my, you know, channeled inner leftist critic there? I mean, I, if, if, if the critic is saying, look, these things are, you know, what impact is this going to have in the world? And I think that's really at the core of it. It's, I guess, you're still perpetuating the whole system. And I think that if you look at the world on the outside, that, yes, if, if the greatest impact of what you do is the ripple that it creates on the outside, I think all those critiques would be legitimate. But there's also another thing that happens, which is actually a ripple effect of what happens on the inside. So because of that act of kindness, my inner ecology completely shifts. And when that inner ecology completely shifts, I have a new lens with which to look at the world. So I may have done an act of kindness that keeps me in a current system. But because it opened me up, now I'm going to connect with that other person in a very different way, or I'm going to notice a homeless person that otherwise I wouldn't have even noticed. And that starts to create a whole entire chain of the different possibilities. So I think if you discount the inner, then I, that critique is valid. But if you really start to look at the powerful transformation that happens within, and I can tell you from my own experience, like one of the things that happens with the smallest act of kind, the most inconsequential thing that I do, even when no one is looking, like I just care for somebody, or maybe it's even more subtler than that. I just wish well for somebody. One of the things that happens on the outside, who knows whether it makes an impact or not. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. There's a lot of science around all of the whole spectrum. But what happens on the inside is very real and is very transformative. Like I noticed when I do an act of kindness in me, they're my mind stills. Because instead of saying, because the pattern of my mind is me, me, me. And now when I do an act of kindness for someone else, even if it's anonymous, that pattern shifts from me to we. Right. So now, because now I'm giving to this other person, it's almost like giving to this person is my left hand or my right hand. And when I do that, it changes my inner composition. And when it does that, I fall into a greater interconnectedness. And as I do that, my mind quiets down to the degree that I fall into a deeper interconnectedness. My mind quiets down and that quiet mind is an incredible resource because that changes how you look at everything and you're no longer in a rush. You know, Gandhi, one of the things he would say is that if you someone, he used to walk really fast, you know, and so it's like, hey, man, what's the what's the rush here? Why are you in the rush all the time? He's like, oh, no, rushing would be a form of violence. I'm just walking fast, you know. So this idea of, oh, why are you, you know, we get so busy, but there's this, you know, I'm active, I'm not busy. And I think that's that's where you can do the same amount of stuff in the world, but with less mental residue. And I think that impact, if we discount that completely, like if the idea of active kindness is just to change the world on the outside, then I think it's missing a huge part of the equation. Clearly is that intention, but you have to honor the inside, too. Because because, you know, usually the act of kindness is something that in the grand scheme of things is tiny, you know, insignificant. And sometimes the rational mind cannot say how it could possibly have any macroscopic impact, you know, like what if you're, you know, like one of the most beautiful acts of kindness I've been privy to is my my wonderful ex-wife Patsy bringing soup to one or this is 10 years ago to one of her real estate clients who was basically dying, you know, and like there was nothing in it for Patsy. Like the house wasn't going to sell. I mean, this was like a complete and giving soup like some nourishing egg drop soup. Like she's Chinese, you know, like so, of course, you give someone some nourishing egg drop soup to a woman who's like malnourished, you know, and eating chocolate bars and soda just because there's no one to take care of her and giving her this this soup. And she's going to die anyway. Like what good could this possibly do? How is this going to help climate change or save the whales or do or reform the prison system or have any impact on the universe whatsoever? You know, if if you depend on it having some calculable impact, then you're not going to actually be very kind very often. But I think, you know, on some level, we understand that these acts are significant, that they they send some kind of ripple out into the world. And like you were saying, they change something on the inside. And I think that that that they're kind of practice. In fact, spiritual traditions will even call that a practice. Karma yoga, you know, and but it's but it actually is a practice for. You know, in a more any situation acting in a way that isn't selfish. And when like the tanks are rolling down the streets and someone has to stand in front of a tank, you know, or someone has to step up politically in that moment of people power, then the same state of being that results in an invisible act of kindness in one circumstance will result in a political action in another circumstance. Exactly. And I think it's not only internal because, you know, when you look at at the politics of our day and why people are, you know, supporting, you know, drone bombings and all the other horrors that are happening and, you know, keeping the Mexicans out, you know, and all of the vicious politics, it's all coming from fear. And what makes people so afraid? What makes people so disconnected? Yeah, I think when someone receives kindness or even witnesses kindness or generosity, that kind of. It's it's this data point that doesn't fit into the world of fear. So I think it's political as well. Yeah. And I think the order of it matters, right? So I think if we start from personal to, you know, to community and then political, I think that's a very different pathway to social change than to start with political because everything's messed up and then to like get to your local community and then, you know, if at all to your own personal self. I mean, Howard Thurman had this beautiful quote. He says, you know, don't don't ask don't go out and ask what the world means. You know, instead, go out and do what makes you come alive because what the world needs most are people who have come alive. And that aliveness, even if you give soup to a person that you feel is completely immeasurable in the matrix of the universe. You know, I actually don't think it works so literally like that. And I think if you look at all these people that have created sustainable social change, I think they've done it by honoring the small. Like I think if you if you discount the small, it just you can't. As Mother Teresa very beautifully said, you know, in their famous quote, you can do no great things, you know, like only small things with great love. But I think it's a function of our collective ego and how we honor that ego so much that we often get greedy even about social change. And we say that, you know, my identity is so vested into that act that like I want to go out. I got to have an impact in the world. I got to leave a legacy behind. And, you know, I was with Steve Wozniak and someone asked him. He's the co-founder of Apple. This was in Malaysia and someone asked him a question. Hey, what do you think about your legacy? You know, it's clearly jobs and was and, you know, there's this whole thing between them and less so now after Steve has passed away. But he says, you know, forget I don't what legacy. You know, I'm going to be a bunch of ashes and that's fine. Like I don't think about my legacy. And it was just a complete like it stunned everybody, you know, because everyone's looking for that kind of an engagement. And I think there are people out there that are not just motivated by the size of that impact because impact is completely deceiving. You know, I gave I gave this talk recently on on humility and one of the humility and one of the things I spoke about was and an anecdote that my mom would tell me when I was young. It was it's it's like in in the Gita in the Mahabharat, which is this Indian epic Krishna is on a chariot and there's a dog on the chariot. And the dog notices that when it moves its tail to the left, you know, the chariot goes to the left. And when it moves his tail to the right, the chariot goes to the right. And there's this, you know, or it happens a couple times and the dog starts thinking, you know, I'm actually controlling the chariot, you know, and we do this mix up between causation and correlation all the time. I mean, even when we have these even at a large scale, we we oftentimes, you know, confuse just mere correlations with actual causation. So really, I think it's an arrogant position to think that you can go out and change the world. But I think it's also equally disempowering to think, hey, man, I don't matter. So I think there's a balance between the two that we have to explore. Yeah. And the way I deal with that. Balance or that paradox is to think in terms of service to that which wants to be born rather than, you know, on the one extreme. You know, me, the the, you know, technologist, the separate self, manipulating the universe to, you know, to fit my design or being totally passive and letting nature take its course. It's a co-creative relationship. What and feeling into what wants to happen. That's calling my gifts into service to that thing. Yeah. And I think here's the thing. Actually, that's a very important point because how will you know that? How will you know that that inner voice is a function of your ego? Or is it a function of being an instrument of the larger organizing principles of the universe? And that discernment is going to is directly proportional, at least in my experiences from what I've heard from people I respect. Also, that discernment between the two, between your two inner voices, so to speak, is directly proportional to the to the quietness of your mind, to your alignment with, you know, in harmony with nature. And so that small act of giving soup to somebody who might be dying, its greatest impact may not be feeding that person who's going to be hungry again tomorrow and who's going to be passing away soon. Its greatest impact may be that you've quieted the mind. You learn how to discern between the voice of the ego and the voice of nature. And then you become a part of a much larger design. And in that sense, it's like, man, it's incomparable, right? If you really saw that, you can understand why Mother Teresa would say, well, you can do no great things. Just do small things with great love and because that's, you know, because I think it's an arrogant position to think that you even know how to impact the world. I mean, it's, it's and for a lot of people, like this, this kind of background urgency that whatever you do, it has to be scalable. It has to scale up. It has to go viral. Otherwise, it was kind of a waste. It didn't go anywhere. Like that can be really paralyzing. Yeah, because not everybody's thing can go viral, you know, only if you can. By definition, you know, by right. Nipun, have you, have you, like recently, have there been any any stories of kindness that you've witnessed that have really, that really kind of impacted you and and made you like really affirmed, you know, what you're speaking about? So many. I mean, they happen all the time. I'll let's see which one I'll tell you one. I'll tell you two. It's hard to pick stories, right? Stories are great. But whatever's alive for you right now. Yeah, yeah. No, one is a tangible one. One is a subtler one. The tangible one was so I was I was in a meeting with this guy. Second time I was meeting him, first time one on one. Second time meeting him. We're having dinner. He's, you know, he's probably one of the richest guys in the country. And he at some point says, you know, Nipun, I'm very good at giving. He's very generous guy, but I'm very bad at receiving. And he says, what is your advice on that? And I said, well, you just got to give more. But you have to give in a different way, where you're tuned into what's happening on your inside. Because as you're tuned into what happens on the inside, you will you will see, at least I have seen from my experience, that as you give on the outside, will you think you're the giver, but immediately in that moment, you are receiving, you know, through your own inner transformation. And it's very hard to compare that inner and the outer. So I basically said to learn how to receive, give more, but give in a in a way with an understanding, with a lens towards the inside. And so we have this whole thing. We have this wonderful conversation, you know, and we went back and forth on that. And then at the end, it's time to give a check, right? And so I, yeah, and I liked treating people and it's one of those small pleasures of my life. I've always, you know, enjoyed it since I was a kid. And so this guy is like, you know, no, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to pay. And I'm like, no, no, no, let me pay that. He's like, no, no, no, I got paid. No, you can't pay. Well, you know, and anyway, so we're fighting. And then he's like, wait, you just told me to practice giving. So let me just, you know, this is my act of giving. And I said, you know, here's what we'll do. Let me have the act of giving here to you. But you pay forward for another table. And so he's like, OK, well, all right, I'm going to pay forward. So first thing is you have to like, you know, you call the waitress over. Mandy was her name and he just said he has to decide which table. And so he's like looking around and he's saying, OK, that table looks a little they look they look a little sad. I mean, he has his own metrics, you know, and so he's like, OK, I'm going to pay for that table. And now Mandy, the waitress comes and he has to explain to Mandy, like what, you know, what is the site? You're like, why is he just paying for it? Because Mandy thinks it's completely off the wall. You know, she's like, what are you doing? And so he has to explain that, you know, this is what I'm doing. And here's a smile card. It tells the person you can't you can't, you know, it's an anonymous act. You can't pay back, but pay forward, keep the chain going. So then Mandy is like, OK, that's what you want to do. Now, Mandy goes to that table and here two of us are sitting face to face and there's a window next to us. Now, you know, it's anonymous, completely anonymous. So he's not even supposed to look, you know, but like he can't help himself, you know. So he tries not to look directly. He's looking at like the window and he's seeing the reflection in the window. And you could just see like Mandy describing this to this couple and the couple like going, what, why, you know, all this exchange. And this guy just had a huge smile on his face, right. And I was trying to be a little bit more hardcore. I wasn't looking at the window, but I was looking straight out at this guy, right. And just seeing his smile widened, I was just beaming, right. And then at the end of that, and then Mandy comes back and she's like, oh, that was amazing. And, you know, you won't believe it. But, you know, so we asked, you know, this guy is asking her. It's like, so what was their reaction? You know, and he's like, oh, they said, they said, wow, why would they do that? And I explained they just just an act of kindness. This is you guys do this year all the time. We're not from here, but we'd like to move here, you know. And then I asked the fellow. I said, you know, this friend of mine on the other side of the table, I said, you know, were you giving or did you receive? Because at one level, it's one frame of reference with one idea of with one kind of currency he gave, right. He paid money for this other table. But man, you got to be, you know, it was so obvious to him that he received. I mean, and how do you compare the two? Was, you know, was those 50, 60 bucks like versus the smile on his face, like it's apples and oranges. Sure, that is giving, but this is also receiving. And how is this going to impact like his meetings he has the next day or how he interacts with his kids and how that will ripple out into the world? You just can't, you know, you can't compare those things. So this is not to deny one, but it is to also to embrace a more fuller picture of generosity. So this is the kind of thing where, you know, it becomes very obvious. So that was one of the stories that came up before you tell the other one. I just want to comment that stories like that or especially if I'm present for those kinds of things, it's like it opens a crack to see a whole other universe. Yeah, because you think like it wouldn't be that hard to run the world on this. You know, like not that. I mean, like just it's like this kind of like, you know, paradise. It's infinitely far away, but it's also right in front of our face. It would just take this tiny little twist. You know, everyone, that spirit spreads. Everybody starts doing that. We all take care of each other. There's no more artificial scarcity, no more austerity, no more begrudging, you know, no more punishment, no more like it's like this whole other world. I call it the more beautiful world our hearts know is possible. It's just like right there, like we're getting a glimpse. And in those moments, my feeling is not of, you know, a temporary, fantastical respite from grim reality. My experience is that I'm being shown what could be for real. It's like a promise, you know, a tantalizing date and switch promise. It's like, here's how the world could be. And this more beautiful world is up to you and up to me. And and and it's, you know, it's not. Oh, if only everybody would start doing this. It's like I am an agent. It's it's, you know, an offering, not only of a more beautiful world, but of a more beautiful Charles, you know, a more beautiful self. And it's so available. It's just right there. That's the thing. And it's it's it's priceless. It's truly priceless, right? And I think one of the other perks of this is that, seeing the material world, I would say, you know, this is where this is Nippun. And this is where the boundary of Charles starts. And so we have these very delineated boundaries between us and the other in in the in the mental realm in the realm of thoughts in our inner world. It's not quite as black and white, you know, so you don't really know where do you stop and where does the other person begin? And they have done so many experiments on how if people are in a circle and they have no physical contact, their heart starts to synchronize, right? If they're all in in training. So how, you know, that idea that once you start to expand this shift that you were talking about, that once that kind of emerges, then all of a sudden, like, you can't stop it. It's no longer just about helping that person on the outside. You come home and it's going to change your relationship with your wife. You know, like, I wake up, one of the things I do is I make tea. My wife loves tea. And one of the things I've always done for her is every morning before she wakes up, I usually wake up before her and I will have tea ready for her. And she it's it's like, I don't get tired. It's been, you know, now it's been 11 years just this month. And and I just do this every every day. And it's not that I'm trying to be kind. It's not that I'm trying to be like changing the world. But it's just that it's just it becomes you, right? It's just it's like that's just and you get so much joy out of it. And you feel like, hey, I want to do it again. And it's not different from all the other things that you do in the world because it's that same space within you. In fact, it strengthens all that other stuff in the world. And when my wife is in the same boat, you know, it just kind of creates a very different dynamic. You can imagine if two people are engaging with each other with this idea of like, no, no, let me do the dishes, no, no, let me do the dishes. You know, it's it's it sounds farfetched. And you say, how can the world actually work like that? But can even can you work like that with your own self? And can you work like that with like your immediate loved one? And I think if we just take it there, then we can plant the foundation for an entirely different world, you know. And so there's usually a little barrier of fear between living in that and and maybe where, you know, where I'm standing or where many of us are standing right now. Like, like, and I find that each step deeper into the world of gift, the spirit of gift, has a guardian kind of at that threshold, a guardian of will I be OK? What do you mean by? Yeah, go ahead. Like, yeah, a guardian that says, if you do that, will you be OK? Like, there's a little fear to take that next step. You know, like, like, like, you know, will I have enough money if I give this money away? You know, will I have enough time to take time out to to hold this person's hand when they're at the hospital? You know, will I have enough like this this really deep scarcity programming? How do you overcome that yourself? Or how do you see people moving past those guardians into bliss? And I think it's a practice. I mean, I certainly have my own guardians, you know, that block me from because it's an iterative process. It's a long path, you know, and I by far have not arrived. But I think we tried, like, I think I am stronger now than I was 10 years ago. And I hope that 10 years from now, I'm stronger than than I am today. So I think a lot of this, you know, is about seeing I have started to just see all life as practice. It's just all this one indivisible whole, like how I engage with my parents is practice. How I engage with the community is practice. How I engage with people that come up to me and, you know, ask for something or want something, how I engage with people who may have a different worldview, you know, how I engage with people that are working. In my case, you know, like I'm working with nonfinancial resources and I could have just said, yeah, you know, I don't need to deal with this guy. He's never going to understand giving or receiving, but like you engage at a much deeper level. You're not thinking this guy is a Republican or a Democrat or a libertarian or rich or poor. I mean, it's like, how do you see everyone in that whole sort of a way? And I think that's that's the opportunity. And I think all life starts to become a practice for that. And so we I think society in our dominant paradigm encourages us to compartmentalize like this is just work, right? Like this is how it's supposed to be. But, you know, even within the constraints, you know, there's this beautiful phrase, you know, called creative constraints that we sometimes look at constraints as like, oh, it totally, you know, I can't it's it's it's crippling me. But we can start to look at constraints in a very different way and say, well, with these constraints, what is the greatest creativity that I can manifest? You know, you might be at work, which is part of the system, which is supporting, you know, your which is giving you a salary, which is supporting your kids. And, you know, these are hard, complex things to just jump out of. So but while you're there, you know, can you connect with that person with that colleague at work that may have did something, you know, or can you talk to the janitor and see them just as important as you might see the CEO of your company? And I think these kinds of micro moments of practice ultimately then lead us out into a very different physical equation as well, like different physical circumstances and conditions. I think that's really helpful to see. In fact, I know a janitor and one time a few years ago, he was a bit depressed about his work. He worked in a law office, you know, and you know, anytime the lights wouldn't turn on, people would get him and he'd fix it, you know, and do stuff like that. And he felt his job was quite meaningless. And I reminded him that that your outward job description is just the vehicle for your real work, which is to bring light and love to this office building. Totally. And when he began to embrace that, you know, like it wasn't too long before, you know, the attorneys were like seeking him out, you know, for these one on one, like, you know, almost counseling sessions, you know. Really? Wow. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, like, you know, whatever. Whatever organizing power distributes us around this world, like maybe that power has some wisdom, you know, maybe like you're in that office building or you're in that circumstance for a reason, you've been deployed there and your real work might be something that's that's, you know, not in the job description and that you're not getting paid for. Exactly. And I find that to answer my own question, like about pushing past the the guardians into like new levels of of trust and and generosity and kindness. And I could talk about, you know, meditation practices and things like that. But what really does it for me is to receive kindness and witness kindness. Yes. When I'm in the presence of it, then I'm like, oh, I guess it's OK, because he's doing it, you know, she's doing it. Well, I can do it too. They're OK. You know, I'll be OK, too. It's kind of like this nudge. Yeah, which which is why I find the stories you tell so valuable. You said you had another story. I did. And actually have research that just noticing kindness may actually triggers our empathy. So you never know that like you may be giving soup to somebody. But and it's not just one to one, right? Somebody else's notices and that creates an entirely different ripple in the world. And you just never know that person might be the next Dalai Lama, you know, it's it's really hard to like draw causation lines between like one action and its impact. The second, I mean, there's various stories that come up in this interview talking about one other story. And this is not the one I was thinking of. But there's this really beautiful speaking of janitors. One of my friends was lifelong janitor at a school in India. And now she has a crippling disease, so she can't go and she's got two kids. But she she raised her kids just on her meager salary. They're in a very humble setting. And at one point, she's like, I want to serve, you know, as Martin Luther King said, like, even if you're the janitor, be the best janitor the world has seen. And by best, he's not seeing he's not saying sweeping in the best way, although you'll do that, too. But you will start to look at the wholeness of every situation, you know. And so this woman, she started collecting. She would go through the trash can. She was a janitor at a school and she started to go through the trash can and pick up these small pencils and pick up these broken erasers and these blunt sharpeners and she decided to go out and give it to kids that didn't even have that, you know. And her experience of it was it's remarkable. Like she keeps on wanting to do it again and again and again and again. And it's not because, yeah, you know, we may be able to spend a buck or two and buy these pencils and they're brand new and you go out and do it. But man, her pencils, her, you know, small erasers, her sharpeners that would work part of the time, they were like they they were laced in love, right? They were embedded in the spirit of her own inner transformation. And can you, you know, is that going to be felt by the person on that other end, I would say in some sense, yes, but even more than that, right? It's what is happening to her and then how is she a different mother to her two kids and how are her two kids going to have a very different dream because of the love that she has treated and how is that dream going to ripple out into the world and create an entirely, you know, different possibility for perhaps even the next generation to stand on. We don't know that just seems so much more hopeful, you know. And so, you know, these these kinds of stories really inspire me. I think these are the everyday heroes we forget, like oftentimes, because we want to be the non-everyday hero, right? We want to be what we want to be. I cannot. Yeah, the special. And I think there's something really beautiful to these subtle acts. You know, I was I was in Japan once and this woman came and she says, you know, one thing that I've been doing is this four years ago, my life fell apart, everything like she was broke, got a divorce. She just her health went down the drain. And she says, I remembered that generosity, that small acts of kindness can actually create, can change me and perhaps even change my life. And she started this very simple practice. It was to give a rice ball to one stranger every single day. Every single day. And so when I met her, this is like a couple of years into her practice. She is thriving. Like she has got a small business in Tokyo around, I think, macrobiotic food, which is, you know, a very rare thing in Tokyo. And and she's, you know, people, people that she's like teaches people. She's in a stable relationship. She feels connected. Her, you know, her bank balance is is is in a place where she feels comfortable. And she says that it's all because she just did this practice act of kindness. And it was a consistent act. It wasn't just one. So I think it starts what starts with one and gives us some gateway into, hey, here's my boundary. Here's a, you know, here's a guardian that I'm encountering that I'm still going to do it. I'm still going to do it. And as you do it, it starts to change the entire pattern of your being. And I think it's very powerful. And I think that that it's it's like there's like special moments in life where the power is magnified and leveraged. And for example, the moments where where you're feeling like the most despair, the most darkness and the most futility. Yeah. When you do something and often at those moments, you'll receive an offering from the universe, an opportunity to practice kindness or generosity. And it's like, and if you accept that offer and take that opportunity, it creates a huge shift. It exercises because you're really basically the universe is saying, here's a chance to declare who you are, who you want to be and what kind of world you want to live in. It's like a moment of it's like almost like a declarative moment. It's a, you know, where you where you generate, you're deciding. It's a moment, you know, because if you're feeling like really flush, you know, and like money's coming in, you know, and everything's going great. Yeah. Then it's not so much of a self an act of self creation to just follow that flow and give as you're receiving. I mean, I'm not saying that it's, you know, a bad idea or useless, but it's not as potent as those special moments where where it's truly a choice of who am I? Like it's a stark, a stark choice. Who am I? Who do I want to be? Here is an opportunity to declare that through this action. Yeah. I mean, I, in a way, I think every, ultimately, every moment is seminal if we look deeply into it. But I think that you're right that I think there are some moments which especially at the external manifest level where you have a very clear choice at whether you go left or you go right. And if you go in the path of greater love, of greater compassion, it can really it can it can put you on you're making a statement to yourself. And I think the biggest statement you're making to is not the world. You're actually saying that to yourself, right? And that's and it actually even starts before you make the decision about the cause of that disfair. It starts because before you take, let's say you're at a crossroads and and it's a tough situation. But as you decide, like when you say yes to love, you're actually first thing you're doing is being kind to yourself and not allowing the suffering to overpower you, right? And not realizing that, look, as so many people have said, you know, pain is inevitable suffering is optional. So you're able to distinguish between the two and you're saying, yeah, I'm experiencing pain and it would be nice if that pain wasn't there. But there is this mental component of suffering. And if in this moment I'm just balanced with the despair, then and I'm saying yes to compassion. I'm saying yes to, you know, to we, I'm saying yes to this kind of inate oneness. Then I think in before you even take that action and create that, you're actually just being kind to yourself in, you know, in a very deep way. And I think that's that's very powerful to be in that state. I'm we were we were going to go for about an hour and so we have maybe a few more minutes and I'm just wondering what I guess I'm thinking like what I would like. I don't know. Sometimes when I submit like this, some of the stories I heard you tell last time we were together made me want to go out and be kind, you know, and I'm wondering how to. Pulse that energy out right now. Like what do like, I mean, I guess you probably just tell people, just go out and do it, you know, but. There's so many barriers of fear like we were talking about and habit. Yeah, like give us give us some advice. Give us give us a tell us. Well, I, you know, I don't know if I have advice, but I have, you know, from my two cents, I would say, just get after this call, get up, go and give, give Stella a hug, you know, just unexpectedly, like just go out and do something kind for your neighbor. I mean, there's really endless ways to, to practice this, right? Even if you go hug a tree and or even if you just sit down and just wish well for the world or you write an email to somebody whom you haven't appreciated or yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, I mean, there it's and these are all simple things that you could do like right now and then there's, you know, if there are those moments, I would say like the moments you're saying, you know, that's that seem more pivotal. We actually, we can make each of these moments super pivotal. We can make like now super pivotal by saying, what am I most afraid of? And like just give, give that, right? If I'm most afraid of, wow, I won't have enough money. Like, can I just in this moment, just be super courageous and take everything in my wallet and give it to somebody, you know, and it's not that it's going to change the world, but it's that in this moment, you're overcoming that fear. And maybe it's, you know, and maybe it's not money. Maybe it could be something else. Maybe I feel like, oh, well, you know, if I go out to a stranger at a coffee shop and pay, you know, explain, pay it forward to them and and try to pay for the guy, I'm going to look like a fool. Who knows what they're going to say? I'm not going to feel socially accepted. But just make that the moment, right? Whenever this fear comes up, make that the turning point. And it really could be a major turning point. We're probably sitting on so many latent turning points and through this intention to be kind, those, all those turning points kind of come up and we almost want to say, OK, no, too much, not now. But what if we just walk through one of those turning points? And I think that opportunity is right there. And I think what what stops us is this orientation towards impact. So instead of like thinking of impact on the outside, just think of how it changes you. So instead of saying I want to go out and help the world, which is a very compassionate thing to do or saying, I want to fix the world because it's broken. What if we then say, look, I'm part of the world. I want to serve it. I want to co-create with the world. And I'm going to do it. I'm going to walk through that one gateway here and now in this very. And I think if we do that, we would just discover so many adjacent possibilities that it's like opening that door, right? Like you open one door and you just see one door. But as soon as you open one door, it opens like three other doors that you didn't know existed, you know. And I think like the wisdom of this universe is such that probably after having listened to this podcast, you'll have a conspicuous opportunity to act on the things that you've been saying, that Nipun's been saying. That's just the way things work. You know, something will come up and you might have this moment of recognition. Ah, there it is. Like that's been been attracted to the positive intentions that have been born by this conversation, by hearing these stories. Maybe the listener has, you know, is remembering acts of kindness that he or she witnessed, you know, and those are coming alive inside. And like those have a magnetic pull. Like they pull opportunities to pass that kindness on. So just I'm just saying to the listeners like be be kind of have your antenna up for these for something to happen very, very soon that invites you into kindness. Yeah. Yeah. And that's just very soon, super soon, like now. Super soon, like boom. Like what at this moment? I'm going to do it. I'm going to do something kind. I'm going to get off this thing and I'm going to go and do something kind for my wife. I, you know, I don't know what it is yet, but I, you know, I think that would be great. Just for somebody in your space, like someone right there, it's always like you're saying it's always, always available. Yeah, for sure. So if people feel really drawn to the things you're saying, what like resources, online resources, could you offer them? Should they like go to service space dot org or what's what's service space dot org is the meta organization and which is comprised of a lot of volunteers so you could volunteer there. You could do these small acts of kindness that we've been talking about. We have this game called smile cards, which encourages we basically when you do a small act, we tend to think if you receive a small act, you say great, the world is kind. But I think if you look at indigenous cultures, one of the things that like this indigenous wisdom was always that it is incumbent on you that the chain doesn't stop with you. The buck will never stop with me so that if I receive that I ought to be paying it forward and the smile card is a reminder of that. So if you go to kindspring.org, you'll see that you'll see all kinds of stories and you'll see ways to get smile cards. But also there's a kindness challenge that I mean, I think is a great way. We do these 21 day challenges. We do them or you could you could do your own. So many people have done them. And this is a way to kind of, you know, every day you do a different act of kindness. And when you do that for 21 days, it starts to reorient you. You start to create new neural pathways and you can do a 21 day challenge, not just for kindness. You could do it for gratitude. You could do it for mindfulness. You could do it for ecology. You could do so many different things. So I think engaging at that level, I think is good. And the last thing I would say also is to just be exposed to content that's aligned to your values. You know, we run a portal called dailygood.org, which sends out a little bit of good news every day and KarmaTube, which are inspiring videos. But what it does is it just it's it's not about that particular content that may or may not inspire you, but it just that possibility that, wow, I saw this kid and he had this experience at a beach and he became a vegan activist and he's 14. You know, this was a this was a guy on a call that we had and he was featured just this week. And so that kind and you're like, wow, well, what do I stand for? You may or may not stand for the same values, but it just gives you kind of courage and it gives you this. It wires you into a possibility that just as I can do that small act of kindness and open that door of compassion and walk through those guardians, I can also start to, you know, be far more creative and serve the world in ways that I never even thought were possible. Wow. Well, thank you. Thanks for taking the time to to have this conversation. Yeah, pleasure. And thank you for doing, you know, holding these values in conversation. I mean, you've been doing this now for a long, long time. And and it's it's a joy to, you know, I think the more and more of us should be coming alive with the spirit and it starts with each one of us. So thank you for, you know, bringing that into into play for and having been consistent at it for so long. All right. Well, so anyway, in case you missed it, this was Nipun Mehta, founder of service space dot org service space. And I'm Charles Eisenstein and this. We're calling this podcast a new and ancient story. You've been listening to a new and ancient story with me, your host, Charles Eisenstein to engage more deeply. You can join our community on new and ancient story dot net where we have live chats, forums, meetups and all kinds of other tools for collaboration. If you want to find out more about my work, then visit my website, Charles Eisenstein dot net.