 Thank you very much for your endurance. Thank you. It is my pleasure to introduce the second panel. The first, we resolved all the domestic issues in Egypt. And now in this panel, we're going to try to resolve all the foreign policy issues in Egypt. We have a collection of, I think, old friends and new friends who I'd like to introduce to you. At the far end, Amr Hamzaoui, who is well known in Washington because of the excellent work you did at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, I think all of us who go from Washington to Egypt are then struck at the role that Amr has now played in politics in Egypt. I think you're my only friend who's ever been on a billboard. And I think that is likely to be the same. He's a parliamentarian in the previous People's Assembly. He is, as all my panelists in this panel is on television, but is a commentator and analyst and a deep thinker representing, I think, an articulate viewpoint of the liberal view in Egypt. Dr. Ahmed Darag is the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee of the Freedom and Justice Party, trained as a civil engineer in the United States, a thoughtful and frequent participant in global debates, and I think a very articulate representation of the view of the ruling party in Egypt. And then, on this end, General Samaq Seyf al-Yazal, a veteran of military intelligence in Egypt, the head of the Gumhuriyah Center, a think tank which he founded after the Revolution, remains close to many people with whom he used to serve in the military. And I think what we have here is a very nice balance of the different views of people who are working among themselves to arrive at the question of what the new Egypt's position in the new Middle East is. And so I'd like to start just by asking that question. What is the position of the new Egypt in the new Middle East? What is the role of the new Egypt in the new Middle East? Why don't we start with the general? Sure, thank you very much, John, and good afternoon everybody. Glad to be with you today. This is my second public panel. Actually, I don't know why they put me with public panel, but anyway, God bless us today. Anyway, yes, it is a big issue now after the Revolution, especially after July 1st when we start to have a new administration coming from the Muslim Brotherhood. Definitely, the foreign policy of Egypt has been changed. I can give one example on that which I somehow disagree with this policy, which is Iran. I think what we're doing with Iran now is not very well in the favor of Egypt and Egyptians. I can say that running behind Iran in that way, throwing us in their lap in that way, as well as getting old risks with the other Arab friends and brothers in the Gulf, which they are really annoyed about what we're doing with Iran, is not in our favor. Maybe someone will say, how Emirates, the Iranians, they are occupying three islands, Tanab al-Kubra, Tanab, so greater Tanab, so smaller Tanab, and Abu Musa, and still they have been maintaining a good relation with Iran, not a good relation, at least a diplomatic relation. My answer to that is different. I mean, you cannot compare that with Egypt because, for instance, we are upsetting the Emirates very much, of course, because of this policy with Iran. The Emirates, they don't need Egyptian investors to go there, but we need Emirati investors. We need the green light from the government of United Arab Emirates to their investors to come and invest in Asia, which we are in bad need for that. The main time, we are upsetting Saudi Arabia. We are upsetting Bahrain. We are upsetting Kuwait. You have to actually, just like a chess, before you move your piece, you have to see the reaction, what you're going to expect from the other side. I believe we did not put that in mind. Why I'm afraid of Iran? Why I'm against this policy? Three things. I'm just giving an example for wrong foreign policies with Egypt now, an existing administration. Three things. Number one, I'm really afraid of exporting the Khomeini-Iranian theory and ideas to Egypt. This is scaring. I don't like to see my country, another Iran. Number two, spreading the Shi'at theory and practice in Egypt. Egypt, I'm a Muslim, moderate, very moderate. Sunni. And we want our country to be as Sunni as before. Okay, the yellow one. Very quick. So, again, it's very much the Shi'at idea and the Shi'at theory to come to our country. Thirdly, which is last one because John is raising the other card now, is helping and paying by gives a lot of finance and finance power to some Egyptian groups in Egypt. I'm against this very much. I'm against, at the same time, the new law which is allowing the NGOs to receive foreign money without giving any indication. I mean, if you tell me I'm going to give you any voices, thank you very much. I can give you thousands of voices tomorrow. But this money coming abroad for the NGOs, especially the religious one, I am against it 100%. Anyway, I will stop on that because John is there. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, John. Just out of my three minutes, I just wish that during the previous session, any one of our party was presented because I believe the discussion would have been more rich if one of representing the Freedom Adjusted Party was there. Or actually a professional politician. Maybe Amr Hamza also shared this opinion with me. I mean, people were talking about parties and without any person belonging to any party, except of course Mr. Nagib, but he's now not sharing the party as I understand. So you are? Okay, good. Good. This is the first time that I ever saw him. Okay. But I'm proud of seeing him actually. Now my three minutes starts. Well, everybody, I believe everybody who loves Egypt was not very happy about how the status of Egypt on the international arena deteriorated over the last at least maybe 20 years. Egypt is a very big country, is a very civilized country, has always been effective universally. But if you follow up what Egypt has been doing on the foreign relations over the last 20 years, you actually get very sad, you know, how the status became that low. So our strategy in the Freedom and Justice Party towards mending this situation, and I hope that this is eventually shared by all political forces in the country, because this is something I believe that we can achieve a very good agreement on outside of the discussions and fights over domestic politics and elections and things like that. This is something that we can seriously discuss and reach a good agreement on. For Egypt, for the new Egypt, we are hoping to have balanced relationship with everyone, with all countries, east, west, north, south, not in any particular direction. And the relationships should be based on mutual interests, should be based on mutual respects, rather than, you know, dictating any kind of policies or things to do. Definitely there is a very good connection between internal affairs and external affairs. Egypt can never have a very strong role internationally unless it is strong and powerful internally, and this is where we realize this very well. And I hope we will all of us in Egypt work together in order to develop Egypt to the extent that we are strong internally, so that we are effective externally. On the other hand, the very active foreign relations help very much to enhance the situation domestically. And this is something, this is a very important role for foreign policy that needs to be played. When we talk about balanced relationship with everybody, it is, I'm a bit surprised that my friend, General Sameh started by criticizing, I mean he didn't give me any break, he just started to criticize. I had only three minutes, I have to do the criticizing very quickly. But actually I do not really absorb that. Where is this running into the Iranians? I mean, when we talk about balanced relationship with everybody, I mean we still do not have diplomatic relationships with Iran. As a matter of fact, in order, we realize very well that in order to be effective on the international arena, you have to have ties with everybody in order to be able to exercise influence. If we want to make any progress on the Syrian front, for example, how can we do that without having a minimum amount of talk with the Iranians? The same way if we want to have peace and stability and calmness in Gaza, how can we do that without talking to people in Hamas? This is, it is very important in order to be an effective player on the international arena to keep your ties connected with everybody in the world. Thank you. Thank you very much. I believe the dynamics on this panel are going to give you a sense of how squeezed liberals are between the military establishment on the one hand and the Muslim Brotherhood on the other hand. So in a way, in a way, Jean is simply following the very logical order. No, no, no, I'm not going to... I'm the American mediator who's going to solve this all the next hour. No, no, no, no. I mean, do not say an American mediator because American mediator used to be a mediator and is no longer a mediator because it's getting extremely biased. But that is a different question. So I would say Jean Alterman is a mediator in his capacity as Jean Alterman and I respect that, but not as an American mediator. Now, let me turn into what I would like to highlight with regard to foreign as well as regional issues. Number one, I believe in the current environment and looking at the different domestic challenges Egypt is facing, constitutional, political, social and economic. Our number one foreign and regional policy priority has to be to improve economic and trade relations in the region and beyond the region. And that number one foreign policy priority to improve economic and trade relations should take Egyptian diplomacy in new directions. I am not in principle against reaching out to Iran. It should make Egypt focus on economic and trade components when it reaches out to the Gulf region or elsewhere and it should mean as well that Egypt has to evaluate economic and trade relations based on our interests, and let me inject in that picture a remark of caution because I'm increasingly worried about the fact that Egypt is borrowing way too much money from Qatar. If you look at the foreign debt of Egypt, I'm going to refer to numbers so that we can get more of an objective discussion of what's going on. The current foreign debt of Egypt is close to US$35 billion. If you look at the existing structure of the foreign debt of the US$35 billion, around 20% of it is owned by Qatar and that is too dangerous. It is a structural dependency in the making which we have to watch out for. It should not be simply left to ideological contestation or to sloganeering or to bashing Qatar or not bashing Qatar. I'm not interested in that stuff. I'm interested in avoiding that Egypt grows dependent in the sense of having 20%, close to 20% of its foreign debt owned by one country and that one country pushes indirectly for changes not to be introduced to our taxation system in a way which gives that country a free ride to acquire and to do acquisitions without paying taxes to the public treasury. That is a dangerous dependency which we have to watch out for, number one. Secondly, on economic and trade issues and once again I was shocked in fact to give you a sense once again how we position ourselves as liberals really in between. I was as critical I am of the president and his cabinet going to Qatar and borrowing and getting more money be it with interest rates by the way and as critical as I have been with regard to the president and his cabinet's behavior with regard to lending and borrowing money. I am as critical of the discussion with regard to Iran coming from everywhere else in Egypt. Iran should not be reduced in terms of our need to reach out to Iran into extremist positions based on doctrine related matters. How come that Egypt was 90 million Egyptians with such a great history of being the center of Sunni Islam? How come that that Egypt of 90 million Egyptians becomes afraid of a tiny number of Iranian tourists coming to Egypt in an annual basis? It is a discussion which you will hardly find anywhere else and it's an extremist discussion and I feel bad whenever a liberal voice joins in taking the position of radical Salafis saying no to Iranian tourists that is not the way to conduct yourself in the region and that is not the way to conduct yourself in foreign and regional policy. Do I have one more minute? One second? Ten seconds? Okay Zabayah is the American Mediator. Give me 40 seconds. You started too far. Give me 40 seconds. I will like you. Well Americans will do anything to be liked. So now third remark on Syria and I'm sticking to regional issues as John asked us to do. On Syria and Iran I believe and I was supportive of the present articulating opposition in defense of the Syrian quest for democracy and for human rights. However I did not understand reaching out to Iran without discussing the Syrian issue with the Iranians as well since the Iranian government is the number one government supporting the dictatorship in Syria. So if you are reaching out to Iran for different social and economic issues and for geostrategic issues fine balance your relationship with the Arab Gulf which is important but if you are reaching out to Iran and you know well enough that Iran is the number one promoter of the dictatorship in Syria so that needs to be a conditionality which we put forward before opening up or warming up to bilateral relations with the Iranians. So what I'm missing here is a clear and a well defined line sticking to human rights, sticking to freedom, sticking to promoting freedom and human rights and those are at the core of the Egyptian revolution and I would have expected the first elected president to do so. So number one to be aware of national independence and not borrowing too much way, too much from Qatar. Secondly to be accurate and well spoken and upfront with regard to human rights in Syria and not simply reaching out to Iran and finally for everyone else to avoid falling into the extremist trap of bashing the president for going to Iran which is on doctrine related matters which are in nature extremist and should not be promoted in Egypt. Let me ask an intra-Arab question and that is it feels to me like Egypt is the source of a growing division even within the Gulf Cooperation Council where Saudi Arabia and the Emirates are very critical of the current government of Egypt and Qatar is extremely supportive of the current government of Egypt. Is that a problem for Egypt that it doesn't have broad Gulf support if it is a problem what should Egypt do to try to encourage broader Gulf Arab support? Okay I'll start. Politics is acting more than talking so you have to act meaning that if you'd like to get a normal relation with Saudi Arabia and Emirates and Kuwait and others you have to act politically in a way that you attract them back to your track to be a good relation with you and normal relation with you not to having them in the other side. The existing Egyptian foreign policy is actually eliminating them they are putting them aside they are not you do not encourage them to come back to your arena and help you not only politically but also economically by many many actions I mean and when Egypt I'll give you one example another example very straightforward Mali. Mali of course Al-Qaeda group were actually doing their best over there and fighting against the regime and trying to get control of the country. What we did in Egypt that we actually said oh France is doing a bad job over there why France is invading Mali we don't like that and we are with the regime. Fine this is in general that's okay but look at that it's not because they are Muslims over there who are fighting but they are from Al-Qaeda. You are upsetting Saudi Arabia by that you're upsetting Emirates you're setting up other countries that's not the way you have to think twice before getting a decision. I have learned here in one of the strategic institutes in this city in Washington DC saying that you have to get to take the right decision at the right time. Sometimes if you take a wrong decision at the right time that sometimes it's okay but you don't take a wrong decision at the wrong time. So that's not correct. The point is sometimes we're taking wrong decisions in the wrong time and that affects us, affects the country. It doesn't affect only your foreign policy, economic policy affected everything. Therefore my idea is again my friend Amr I think Amr should sit here and we have joined as a border between the other side but Amr is sitting there wrongly but I wanted to come next to me. Amr is my friend as well by the way and we respect each other very well. Not just a joke but the point is, you see it's a joke everybody laughs. Anyway back to the point. Amr Hamzawi said and maybe this first time to disagree with me that we shouldn't be actually afraid from Iran and Iran tourists. What's Iran tourists? Again it's not only Iran tourists. My point of view, you are taking the decision now to get a normal relation with Iran where Iran is threatening Israel, threatening the Americans basis in the Gulf threatening American basis in the south of Europe by nuclear bombs and by the way before end of September Iran will have the first, first I'm telling you information now I'm very responsible about that the first atomic bomb, militarily. All right the first one, they will produce the first one by end of September. I'm sure about that. So now we're talking about a nuclear power coming and threatening everybody. Why now you want to have a normal relation with them? I don't mind to have a relation with them but not very tight relation not the way we are doing it. Not because they are waving with 2 million tourists I'm going to give you some money. I don't want this money if they're going to come and export the revolution to me and spread a theory and idea in my country. I don't want that. I don't want that money believe me. I can have a normal relation with them that's fine with me but not in that way, not in a speedy way. Step by step, sorry. I was hoping to keep it more on the intra-Arab side and on the intra-Arab side is it a problem that there's not broad GCC support for Egypt? Should it be an objective of the government of Egypt to have broad GCC support and what would be required to broaden that support? Definitely it is our interest. We're not happy that we don't have a normal and good relationship with the countries like the Emirates or Kuwait or even sometimes Saudi Arabia. This is not something that any Egyptian likes. But let me remind you that the first country that President Morsi visited after he became president was Saudi Arabia. Actually he was criticized for that as well. I know that ironically. And also he visited one more time and I know personally that there are a lot of attempts to have whether with Saudi Arabia or the Emirates to try to regain the good relationship between these countries and others. But the notion that Qatar is something else and is trying to control Egypt and stuff like that this is really, I'm not sure how this impression is reaching people. For example the financial support that Qatar started to provide for Egypt started during the time of the military council not during the time of President Morsi. As a matter of fact the three billion dollars they talked about didn't even reach Egypt yet. I mean during the time of the military council Qatar started and promised, made that promise at that time that it is going to pour 10 billion dollars to the Egyptian economy, to the central bank in order to support the Egyptian Revolution. And that was before even the freedom of justice party was established at all, before the elections, before anything. So the idea of tying this to the Muslim brothers or the freedom of justice party I see baseless actually. And on the other hand although it seems that there are big differences between what Qatar is doing and what Saudi Arabia is doing and the Emirates is doing but in reality there is a very good degree of consensus between all the GCC countries. They have strategic objectives and there are limits that no one can exceed. It's not like they are becoming enemies or anything like that. But as I said we hope that we retain and we regain good relationships with the Emirates and Saudi Arabia the way they have always been. The same thing applies to Iran. I mean where is this intimacy that people are feeling between Egypt and Iran right now? All what is happening is that they are starting to be some admittance for some tourists to go to some places in Egypt which are beach places here and they are not even to Cairo. They are not even allowed to go to Cairo. Where are these intimate relations? I'm sure that there are more Iranian tourists going to the Emirates than they are going to Egypt. Is this all I mean people are talking about? When we talk about that I agree with Amr of course and this is what we are really doing. When we talk with the Iranians we tie any development in our relationship with Iran with progress in the way they are dealing with the Syrian crisis. So this is absolutely our position towards Syria is very clear. This is not on the account of our relations with Syria or anybody else. When you talk about Mali we are not supporting the current regime. As a matter of fact Il Qaeda is not the current regime. I don't know if you know this. The current regime is not the al-Qaeda is rebels against the current regime. We never said that we are supporting the current regime or we are supporting al-Qaeda or anything like that. All what we said or the president what he said was that we do not support international intervention. We would like conflicts to be solved peacefully. This is all. Nobody said anything about supporting al-Qaeda or supporting and this is what is worrying Saudi Arabia. I don't know where is this coming from. I believe that there are a lot of exaggerations about these aspects and we need to take this a little bit easy. We need to forget about domestic politics for a while and start talking seriously about what is the best interest of Egypt when it comes to its foreign policy. There is a big area that we can agree upon when it comes to this. That is exactly the major point I believe which I feel is missing and it's missing the national consensus with regard to foreign policy preferences. Foreign policy priorities is missing to my mind because the government is yet to articulate a clear vision on its foreign policy priorities with regard to the Middle East, with regard to the Arab world as well as with regard to the different international ties which Egypt has sustained for a long time. Now of course there were expectations right after the revolution that once you have a regime change, the new regime as it has been the case in many places, reconsider foreign policy preferences, reconsider foreign policy alliances and redefine some of them. In order to do so, regionally or internationally, you have to have a vision and what we are missing is a clear vision, even a vision in progress I cannot see. And let me tell you very honestly that that is part of the inefficiency of the existing administration because the same missing vision is exactly what we are suffering from in domestic issues. We are missing a vision domestically as well as internationally and regionally, second point. Now if we were to have a vision, definitely the question of Iran needs to be approached pragmatically. It's not acceptable to ideologize or to put it in an ideological terms. It's not about ideology and it's not about undermining our relationship with the Gulf because the UEE has always had diplomatic and trade relations with Iran more than anyone else in the region. So they should not come and tell us you are not allowed to go to Iran because they have been. Dubai is a creation to a great extent of Iranian money and of trade with Iran. So let's be honest and upfront. Egypt's relationships in the region or abroad should not be conditioned. But in order to have in a conscious manner a way of managing Egyptian foreign policy, we need a vision. Iran, we need conditionality with regard to human rights issues, with regard to the Syrian component, with regard to Iran in the Gulf, Iran and Iraq and that needs to be pronounced and spelled out pragmatically. With regard to the GCC countries, we have real issues on the ground. We have Egyptian guest workers in most of those countries and that needs to be the number one priority. I do not understand what we talk about. About two million, right? Yes, over two million Egyptians are working in the GCC. So our priority needs to be to focus on their conditions, social and economic conditions, on their legal status as every single country with guest workers abroad do, as every single country does when it has guest workers abroad. When it comes to trade relations and economic relations, yes, of course, the existing political class in Egypt, the new political class in Egypt, Islamist and otherwise Islamist liberal, we have to understand that Gulf monarchies will continue to be fearful and I'm putting it not in diplomatic terms, will continue to be fearful of the democratic experiment. I'm not saying they are undermining it, but of course they are fearful of the fact that we are electing a parliament that we elected a president regardless I like or dislike him, but we have an elected president and that democratic experiment is not one of the positive sides which Gulf monarchies see when they look at Egypt. So that component needs to be tackled and it needs to be deconstructed in our own interest by focusing on economic and trade issues on issues related to Egyptian guest workers, but we should not accept conditionality on our foreign policy, maybe it was regard to Iran or anywhere else as long as we have a vision. But what we lack is a real vision and that is not a regional issue and that is not due to the making of regional or external powers. It is our own fault and I believe that is very much related to the inefficiency of the existing administration. So let me follow up on that because I think it bridges the first panel and the second panel. What you just said was that Egypt doesn't have much of a foreign policy because there aren't politics surrounding a foreign policy. What do you think would be required to create different schools of thought, different political orientations around politics for people to use the political system to articulate and argue about what Egypt's priorities would be with a hope that politics would produce a policy instead of the absence of a policy, which I think we've largely heard people describe. What brings, how do you make Egyptian politics produce a discussion that leads to a policy? Before I answer this, I would like to respond to the notion that there is no vision for the Egyptian foreign policy. Maybe Amri is not aware of that vision, but there is a vision. I myself, I wrote several articles. Actually, I just remembered, I went on TV with my friend here, Dina Fattah, for two episodes, one and a half hours each, talking only about our vision for the new foreign policy. And it triggered a lot of comments. You can ask her if you like. Actually, a lot of workshops were organized to discuss specifics about our vision. How we would like to see Egypt in two years? What are our objectives for the coming two years? What are the objectives of the Egyptian foreign policy? And what are the circles of interest to us? All this is there. And the president called for, he established a forum and he called for different political parts. He called the council, the Egyptian council for relations. He called professors of the faculty of political sciences in Cairo. I called the many players and that vision was discussed in detail and that was broadcasted live on the air. I mean, how can we claim? And that there has been a lot of implementations. The president has been touring the world and how can we say that there is no vision? I can accept that somebody criticizes that vision or says that there is, this is wrong or this, I don't agree with this, I don't agree with that. But to claim that there is no vision, this is totally unfair because there is a vision and we would love to have this discussed and criticized. And from this platform, I invite my friend Amr and all other political, I'm chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee in the party. I invite them, I will invite, I will each invitation to our political parties to discuss this. I have working papers, I'm going to present these and we discuss this and we welcome all the input so that we can reach an agreement. This is what helps, but if we keep accusing each other that we have nothing, this is not going to help and this is not going to lead us anywhere. Thank you very much for the invitation. So let me, let me, I do believe and I believe Amr and I will not disagree and General Sifiliyaza will not disagree. Definitely foreign policy issues ought to be treated based on a bipartisan perspective. I mean it's what decent countries do and what decent politicians do as well. I mean we may disagree on a wide range of issues in relation to domestic politics, but when it comes to foreign policy priorities, we've got to build and develop, articulate a platform, develop a vision based on bipartisanship. Honestly, I do not see a vision. I once again reiterate my statement. I see actions, I see movement around the globe in the region and outside of the region, but it does not add up to a vision because a vision in foreign policy means that number one, we have to define what Egyptian national interests are in the region and beyond. And if we have a definition of what Egyptian national interests are, I believe we would not be very assured seeing that the foreign debt of Egypt is being owned to 20% by one country that is dangerous for any country in the sense of dependency and building dependency. Secondly, if we were to define, if we would have had a clear definition of what Egyptian national interests in the region and beyond are, we would have clear statements and clear actions, be it with regard to preserving and protecting the rights of Egyptians in the Gulf and elsewhere, promoting trade relations in the Nile Basin and in the Mediterranean region, not only in the Gulf, reaching out to Libya and Tunisia economically that was done to an extent, I have to say, but to have a whole sale understanding, a package of what constitutes Egyptian national interests and how to go about. Secondly, once again, it's a reflection of what we missed domestically. You reach bipartisanship on foreign policy issues if you have a decent process of democratic deliberations. It's how this country goes about bipartisanship and foreign policy issues and how any democratic country goes about bipartisanship in relation to national security related issues or foreign policy issues, but because we lack democratic deliberations in Egypt, because we lack consensus on domestic as well as foreign issues, we do not have it. We do not have that bipartisanship. The way to go about it would be to definitely create bodies until we have an elected parliament, until we have completed our legislative branch of government. It would be to have bodies for scholars, for politicians, for party members to sit down and discuss. The rug mentioned the council which was established by the president and as far as I know, and I speak about myself and fellow politicians in different opposition parties, none of us was invited. So if you are not reading foreign policy issues in a bipartisan driven manner, what are you expecting the opposition to do? Of course it will continue to cry out, no vision is there and there is no vision there. The council was established, we were not invited. It's turning into a body managed one-sidedly. Final remark and let me be very upfront about that. Now Egyptians need clarity and transparency with regard to who is managing foreign policy. It's no longer acceptable that I see duality between the presidency and the foreign ministry and I do not know who is managing the minister of foreign affairs, is it the foreign minister or is it the president's assistant to the president who is managing foreign affairs. And let me once again very frankly tell you that Egyptian diplomats, I'm not quoting anyone here in the embassy to undermine their term, I'm quoting diplomats from elsewhere, they are receiving orders, they are receiving requests not addressed to them from the ministry, but from informal institutions which should not be part of the Egyptian foreign policymaking and that needs to be clarified. If you would like to have bipartisanship to clarify who is running Egyptian foreign policy in institution and invite us in and we will not say no, it's about our country and our national interests. Well I succeed Amra Hamzaoui that I don't see a really political vision now in Egypt. In fact sometimes we have a policy which we see regarding an important regional issue like Syria for instance and then we found ourselves in front of our president saying in Russia a different, actually an opposite idea. We are succeeding very much in Egypt, the revolution in Syria. We are saying that the revolutionaries are doing well, we are again especially against his regime, his regime has to step down and suddenly that's a vision. What I call this is okay, this is the policy of Egypt that we are supporting the revolutionaries in Syria. We are supporting the Syrian Free Army and then we found ourselves in front of an announcement and a speech by our president in Russia saying that we appreciate the Russian view and point regarding Syria and we are in agreement with that. That makes you 100 degree opposite the other side. Are we with the Russian view? Ali! No, no, no, I think many... Oh, it's not Ali. Ali, Ali, Ali was the one. Wow. Do I have the transition for the people who we... Nakeeb saying that the statement ... People don't understand Arabic or those who can't hear the air. Nakeeb just joined the Muslim mothers. saying that the statement was that president said that that he listened to the Russian view regarding Syria and understand where are coming from we're coming they're coming from supporting the Bashar al-Assad I mean he's not coming against the Russian you want to tell him okay okay that you do you want to tell me that the Russian against Bashar al-Assad if you saying that okay I agree with that but anyway that's not the only one we we see different other actually occasions that it was very contradictory with the with other policies I mean you go right or you go left this is not clear plus in fact there's other gray areas and some in some issues in some political forum issues and and regarding for instance what Mr. Amr al-Dragh said regarding Mali what I what I mean regarding that that we said France the French people they are not allowed to go to intervene to make intervention in Mali and and and and shoot this groups these group are kaada we have to stop talking about don't say anything leave it if you don't want to be involved to be involved such just say yes I am listening and I'm watching the issue but don't say that I am again is that you are again is that all right you know what what happens they stop the visit for for present mercy to to France they said okay we'll delete the number one number two the Euro money the Euro money again it was stopped so we are harming ourselves by that we have to have a clear vision political division it's not there thank you the comment that we understand where they're coming from reminds me of a colleague I used to work within the State Department it wasn't till I'd worked with her for about six months that I realized when she said I take your point what she meant was you're wrong and always sounded so nice I take your point like wow I've really persuaded her no she meant you're wrong anyway what one I finally learned only took six months one question that that I think is on people's minds is what is the proper relationship of what is happening in Egypt what's happening in the rest of the region should Egypt consider itself to have a leadership role should it be an example should it inspire people should there be partnerships between Egypt and other groups or governments to try to to to have people learn from the Egyptian experience or should Egypt be considering its bilateral relationships working with existing governments governments that have not transitioned governments that may be persecuting Islamist parties how does the new Egypt relate to a region which is not entirely new okay well inspiring is never a program and and inspiring is never a set of well-defined policies to inspire regionally I believe Egypt in in different periods and its long history inspired the region and inspired humanity beyond the region and that was based on showing and documenting and signaling to the word the fact that we are a strong nation knowing where we are going regardless of how we evaluate past experiences in today's terms Egypt was inspiring in the 1920s 1930s and 1940s projecting an image of a new nation state modern nation state well well able to define a clear place for religion and its politics well able to safeguard personal freedoms and to to provide for modernization Egypt was inspiring in the 1950s and 60s for different reasons and Egypt will continue to inspire as long as we have progress in our country which the region looks at and understands and affiliates or associates with having said that let me let me let me say very briefly that I I I do believe that Egypt regardless of the differences we have in our domestic politics between the brotherhood and liberal parties and leftist parties that Egypt has to be and remain committed to promoting human rights and freedoms in the region it's what we have to be promoting in the region and what we have at least to condition our foreign policy based on I do not believe that we are a small nation we are not tiny nation in the region we are an influential nation and we have to take human rights and defending freedoms and promoting democracy seriously therefore once again I agreed and continue to agree with overall direction with regard to Syria but I miss concrete actions on the ground and I miss conditionality Syria related conditionality with regard to Iran therefore I agree on reaching out to democratic governments or democratically legitimated governments in Tunisia and Libya on prioritizing them over countries which are ruled by undemocratic governments that is what we what we have to defend in the region and that is the only way to inspire secondly commitment to democracy and human rights does mean that we have to avoid the backsliding on democracy and human rights in our in our society and unfortunately we continue to have very negative developments in that regard as far as I am concerned we continue to have human rights violations we have growing growing tensions with regard to freedom of expression growing attempts to limit and restrict freedom of expression and if we are serious about inspiring the region democratically we have to do our job our homework properly we cannot avoid to backslide on on democracy thirdly Egypt is inspiring by by by the very fact that we continue to have a pluralist political space and sometimes we do not we do not evaluate right how the region is looking at Egypt as of now and trust me because I met recently Arab liberal intellectuals and representatives of different Arab liberal parties from all over and movements and they do follow our domestic debates very closely so what is happening in Egypt and how debates are unfolding with regard to religion and politics with regard to equal citizenship rights with regard to how we are how are we managing are we managing the issue of sectarian tensions and sectarian violence properly driven by a rule of law and equal citizenship rights perspective yes or no all of that is being watched very closely in the region so we will inspire by understanding that we are that situation and developments in Egypt are monitored and that if we do not backslide we will definitely offer the region a model without going around saying that we are the model it it's it it's completely related to our domestic and internal developments and if it goes in the right direction which I continue to hope definitely the region will take it seriously in a way I agree with the Amr in most of what he said and the thing is that when you when when you want to to to act as a model and to be looked at as a model this should be after things stabilized in other words that the current status within the transitional periods cannot be taken as a model definitely we have difficulties right now and we are not asking people to duplicate what we are going through during the transitional period as a matter of fact I do believe that we are passing the transitional period in a much better way than than other Arab Spring countries although the a lot of things are being criticized as we we always hear but but still comparing to other Arab Spring countries in a way we are moving at a faster path but the problem is that we are now in the middle of a transitional period and this transition period is is is quite normal it is after 60 years of of corruption of oppression of all kinds of bad things that you all know so the model of of moving out of this situation after the Egyptian revolution is in itself is as a big model this is something that is to be looked at very highly the the notion that we could manage to change after 60 years of military control over power into civilian control no matter whether we like who that civilian is or not but but still this is a civilian control this is a significant development this is a very good model that many countries in the region and in the world are not still capable of escaping this is this is something that is to be challenged and looked at but definitely we need to work hard in order to develop ourselves in a much better way to deserve our role Egypt is has always been the leader in the in the area not just in the Arab world but in Africa and sometimes to some countries in Latin America so this is what we hope will happen and I hope that we improve our performance all of us in Egypt in order to reach this stage to be really a model of what can happen after a big change like what we went through after the revolution yes I guess the question is are we ready Egypt is ready to be a model in the area for others or not right well let's see globally yes we are ready because we are a great country you are the large country in the area we are very important country in the Middle Eastern African Arab world everybody looks to Egypt as a great country and this is reality whether it is under this system under the Islamic system or other systems because Egypt is Egypt with all the assets we have people and everything but the point is to be practically the model you have to do a lot of things it's not like talking you have as I mentioned a few minutes ago do it practice how can we be in front of others the model real model in the area I think I guess by many things very few items just for before the red card the John used against me very quickly number one by having a clear foreign policy not only with the with the international arena but also the Arab world as we mentioned before and Africa we are ignoring Africa somehow Africa is not in our priority right now yes they are doing some work but it's not enough number two democracy and democracy and democracy we have to practice democracy internally to prove to the others that we are a good model that this revolution came with the result the result we were not practicing democracy before 25th of January we have to practice democracy and not talking about democracy what we are doing now is giving announcement giving speeches about democracy but we're not practicing democracy the number three which is very important respecting law we have to respect they have to respect law from the highest level going down to the end of the line are we doing that in Egypt now to be a model I think I guess no equality woman and other Egyptians has to be equal to give a model to the area to give a model to the Arab world and to the world that there is a change in Egypt I don't think we have the equality right now in Egypt for everybody and and that has to be a model and has to be a model and highest our priority in the highest priority of Egypt meaning that talking about it put it in the constitution and in different way indirectly I don't think that's enough practicing it we have to show people that we have real equality in everybody are we doing that now or not that's another question thank you with great temerity after I ask my next question I'm gonna go back to questions but I really am gonna ask that we hold by the rules the last question I have I'm at Hamzawi several times talked about the importance of conditionality in Egypt's foreign policy conditionality with Syria conditionality with Iran the issue of conditionality is a huge issue in the United States since policy toward Egypt should there be conditionality both as Egypt relates to its neighbors and as other countries relate to Egypt okay I don't think conditionality is the right word when it comes to equivalent relationship between sovereign countries okay when we talk when you talk about relationship between sovereign countries you talk about mutual interests you talk about mutual benefits you talk about cooperation you talk about hand-in-hand not an upper hand and a lower hand okay so this is this is how the relationship should be between sovereign countries and what one of the cornerstones of our vision new vision for foreign policy is to have our relationship with all countries on equal basis we are a sovereign country we we accept friendship we are looking for for friendship with everybody when we apply this to the United States the United States is a very important country in this world is a strategic country the relationship between Egypt and the United States is strategic but in order for that relationship to be sustainable it has to be correct it has to be on equal basis has to be based on interest if we start talking about I'm not gonna give you this unless you do this and that this is not a healthy relationship what are we getting from the United States we are getting when it comes to conditionality we are talking about financial aid and military aids if you talk about financial aids we're talking about little more than 200 million dollars a year for your information the growth national product of Egypt is more than 260 billion US dollars a year so this is actually nothing when you talk about military aids I don't like to call it eight I like to call it something that that the US invests in order to achieve its interests in the area this is something that is causing and I and this these actually are not my words that these were my words of General Zayni we were having a panel a couple of days ago in Williamsburg and he explained very clearly that the United States is getting in return of this so cold support much more than than it is it is pay so when we when we talk about good relationship between friendly countries we talk about balanced relationship based on respect and not based on conditionality and and an upper hand and lower hand this sort of thing yes I'm very much against the way of conditionality regarding the foreign policy or putting pressure to another country to get whatever you want I think the dialogue and the normal relation diplomatic relation can be actually much better than having conditions to the others and putting pressure on them to get whatever you want this this policy yes it is it has been done before many times it has been practiced many times before I don't think right now with the new history and the new policy of dealing between the countries in the world now I don't think it is the right one meaning that yes sometimes you have you are under pressure and that's this is politics and you have to accept that but it doesn't mean that the whole way you have to have conditions on your shoulder to to go ahead for the need of others thank you very much on that is for politicians in in the respective country to decide upon so I'm not going to speak for for for the US as far as I am concerned and from an Egyptian perspective and I'm going to give you an exact example to to make my point clear I was one of those who met senator McCain as he came recently with a delegation a congressional delegation to Egypt and we met him the national Salvation Front met him and he asked us about conditionality on the 8th package the economic as well as the military 8th package and our answer was we are not going to and we are not asking for conditionality on the 8th package Egypt needs a package and it's in our country's interest and we are not willing to compromise on national interests for pick pickering between opposition and government and so we pushed that out and that is definitely an issue which I do not like to to be to be in a gray zone about as far as our national interest is concerned I believe the 8th package especially the military 8 package is needed the economic 8 package is less significant but the military 8 package is needed and as I'm the rug was mentioning there are different calculations behind the military 8 package on the other side as far as Egypt is concerned what I meant by conditionality is that we have to have a clear a clear list of priorities a clear list of interests which we are defining and we have to shape our foreign policy actions our regional actions based on that I do not mind telling the Iranians and it's our mandate the government's obligation to tell the Iranians that we are not willing to accept that they continue to promote the dictatorship which is killing Syrians in a daily in a daily fashion I believe it is the obligation of the government of the existing administration to tell and to signal to the Gulf region that while we are not after changing their regimes and monarchies that we are not going to compromise on human rights and freedoms in Egypt so we have to make it clear where we stand and what do we stand for that is the only way to go about foreign policy region and internationally in a proactive manner otherwise it's going to be as is as of now which is actions steps and vision is missing thank you now we'll go to questions again the rules are one question identify yourself your question has to be the form of question and I'm gonna try to calm people I didn't call on the first panel because there are a lot of people you can get called on Muhammad in the front row because you've been very patient so right here plus I've no Muhammad for 15 years how would you envision a regional role for Egypt let alone a leading role when it is suffering from political economic and security problems two years ago after the revolution I talked to general Samah about reforming the police and he said transnational transnational justice is lacking in Egypt and two years later it's still lacking so I'd like just to know how you are envisioning this role I believe I address this point because I said that you cannot have a successful role outside your country and a successful foreign foreign policy without having building your own country in a good way I mean this is this is ABC and and for the particular point related to the police and this is a very difficult task and actually the effort of everybody in Egypt is needed to be directed into into this because the whole structure of the police forces in Egypt have been built during the previous era from the youngest to the oldest one the whole system was built on protecting the regime rather than protecting the security and the safety of people and without even knowing it's becoming a culture they may no matter who the regime is they may be willing part of them would be willing to to protect the regime rather than concentrating on the on the security of the society so this is something that needs needs a lot of consensus and a lot of effort to be done and I totally agree that this is an absolutely important here you'll get your chance Khalid al-Gindi with the Brookings Institution and also with the Egyptian American rule of law association my question is sort of picks up on something that I'm a hamza we raised which is this duality and who's making foreign policy the absence of transparency and it seems to me that there's another actor in that equation that wasn't mentioned that's the military as far as foreign policy issues are concerned so my question actually is a is a fairly narrow one recently we will we've heard from Israeli military authorities of various types that security coordination with Israel has never been better it's better than it was under Mubarak we've seen the destruction of something like 200 tunnels between the Sinai and Gaza so my question maybe I'd welcome all of you to respond is this is this part of this duality issue is this a result are these initiatives being taken by the at the initiative at the behest of Muhammad Mursi as president as commander-in-chief and as the chief of presumably to form policymaker or is it are they are these decisions being taken with the acquiescence of Muhammad Mursi and obviously there's a distinction so the subtext is the role I suppose of the military in formulating those those policies versus the presidency okay I'll take that I guess and there's a relief from the rest of the panel I guess nothing has been changed the announcement from the Israeli side that it is better now I don't think it's correct it's the same thing from my point I'm close to that I know what's going on I believe the relation with Israel regarding the border the mutual border with the with Israel as well as the the Gaza strip I think it's the same my the appendix security appendix of the peace treaty item 5 I guess we have to have a liaison liaison officers between the two countries in regard of the peacekeeping forces in in in Sinai as well as what's going on in the border yes there is a kind of contacts on maybe daily basis weekly basis between the two sides to organize that and to make sure that the border at least in in the way do you want or at least from both sides not only from one side in regard of the tunnels yes it is a kind of you know different policy now that they have to destroy the the tunnels and the army is taking this in his shoulder and he's doing that on daily basis now it's not yet 200 tunnels as you mentioned has been destroyed I think it's close to 120 140 but they're still doing that every day they are doing it by putting flooding a lot of salt and salty water to the tunnels in the places which you have some housing and and people living on top of it and other other tunnels they destroyed if it's far away from the housing area yes the army is doing that now and the harm from the tunnels is unbelievable it's beyond your imagination we are very very much harmed the national security of the country is severely harmed every day by leaving these tunnels alive one sentence basically once again trying to to clarify why is a duality with regard to the decision making process on foreign policy as well as national security issues is quite quite challenging I believe Egypt has always had foreign policy institutions or institutions within its state working on foreign policy issues and they have been traditionally the foreign ministry the military establishment and the intelligence institutions and those three actors have always been part of shaping of course with the presidency of shaping foreign policy priorities for Egypt what is dangerous as of now is number one that unfortunately and maybe it takes time but we have to to really take very seriously the principle of civilian oversight and so I'm saying that knowing that the president in office as of now does not belong to the political line I represent but we have to take civilian oversight very seriously it is a presidency with parliament which have to set the foreign policy priorities and whoever else in Egypt or whatever else in terms of institutions is an implementing institution not a policy making institution and that needs to be very clear secondly the duality second sentence right second second sentence and once again I'm not really taking it in the direction of pickering between government and opposition but I believe that we are undermining the duality between the decision making process within the Muslim Brotherhood and the decision making process within the presidency and the role of the foreign ministry and so on and so forth that that is because it's dealt dealt with in an untransparent manner that undermines institutions and the capacity of institutions to implement foreign policy foreign policy action so I hope that we will have more transparency in Egypt that we will know that it is a foreign ministry which implements foreign policy not somewhere else in a place where we have no access to because once again civilian oversight should be designed should be designed to to add to respond to us citizens knowing who is doing what we'll go right here right huh no we're behind you yeah no no no no behind behind Khalid Mohammed al-Sutuhi actually I heard the statement from General Sefil Yazal about Iran did you say that you'll build a nuclear weapon by September is this what you said the end of September he said early September because as a journalist in Washington for 20 years I have to tell you this would make headlines in Washington because even the Israeli intelligence which has been crying wolf about this issue for years they agree now that this would take at least a year for them to have the capacity to open eyes their program so I don't I respect that you have your own sources but I just wanted to clarify that yeah hood Barak said that two weeks ago here in in San Francisco in a big seminar and I've seen it in in the video as well not only a hood Barak is saying that but the other information is actually confirming that they are in the very very end steps of producing it and actually hood Barak said actually where is gonna be produced as well so it's kind of definite information and he said that yes yeah hood Barak said that and it's in YouTube by the way you can you can look at it just put your hood Barak and let us visit in the states you will find it a shadow Hassan from Cairo University I just have a one small question since you said that you are heading to an equal relationship with the Gulf state countries while some of the prominent members of the freedom and justice party if just in two days ago said that most of the stolen Egyptians money are actually not in foreign banks but in Abu Zabih Bank so how come that you just with which was actually Mr. Arian so how come that you are saying that you're heading to an equal relationship with all Gulf countries and what happens with respect to the Egyptian people's working in these countries while you're just saying that thanks thank you well actually this is a question to be asked to Mr. Arian to get his sources but but anyway the point is that I didn't say that that we do have a balanced relationship between the our good relationship with all the Gulf states I said what I said is that we hope to have that and if the if the if there are money in any countries banks this doesn't mean that our relationship with that country should be ruined I mean if this is just information that some some people went and put the money in these banks this should not be the basis of ruining the information but I don't see actually the relevance of your question I it is definitely to the best interest of Egypt to have good relationship with all the countries in the world but starting from the Arab countries and the priority would be to the Gulf countries I cannot be more clear than that hi I'm Dina Gurgas I'm with the Tahir Institute for Middle East policy my first question was to Mr. Darragh you mentioned all right Mr. Darragh you mentioned that this idea of sort of a new relationship based on mutual respect and there we see a lot of sort of public statements from the Muslim Brotherhood regarding Egypt's sovereignty in the fact that you know the United States should not intervene and it's interesting because this is sort of the public role that the Muslim Brotherhood adopts but privately it's no secret that there is delegation upon delegation headed by people like I saw him it had dead that descend on to Washington DC to specifically garner support for domestic policy advanced by the Muslim Brotherhood so I was just wondering if you could comment on that dichotomy of the public versus private role and very quickly Tom you mentioned that there was just please please please because because I'm trying to enforce the rule equally for everybody and the rule is one question and we said when you started one question so I'd be grateful I'm glad I'm glad Dina you asked that question because when you talk about visits of Dr. Asama Haddad to Washington he's doing these visits not as a capacity of a Muslim Brotherhood he's doing this as the first assistant of the Egyptian president for foreign foreign policy okay foreign foreign affairs and actually this is also important to clarify and maybe response to some of the points that the armor also raised in the Constitution that the the the responsibility of foreign relations is primarily in the hands of the president the president is in charge of national security foreign relations you know and this this kind of stuff while the government is taking care of all the most domestic domestic issues and and internal affairs so it is the presidency establishment according to the Constitution that should be leading the foreign policy and also my information that and I personally talked a lot with the minister of foreign affairs himself I'm not talking about talks from this embassy or that embassy the minister of foreign affairs himself he assured me that they are taking full control of all fights and that many of the files that they use not to have any access to are now in the hands of the foreign foreign ministry foreign affairs and they are in excellent coordination with the presidency establishment so I hope that we we let people who are doing their jobs do their jobs I mean he is the assistant president for the assistant of the president for foreign relations there's nothing wrong with going to Washington or any other country to have good to try to pave the way for good relationship with the US US is as I said is a very important country to Egypt is a strategic country to Egypt and having a balanced relationship with the US does not mean that we do not have a relationship with the US we are hoping to have good relationship with I am afraid that we have run out of time I want to thank our panelists for participant want to thank the panelists on the first time I thank you for your patience if you will have individual questions to ask individuals please come up thank you very much for joining us today