 All right, the time is now 6.30 and the March 21st, 2024. The resident board that upholds standards and procedures as defined in the Winooski zoning ordinance. We review and make decisions on subdivisions, site plans, conditional uses, variances and appeals of the zoning administrator's determinations. We have authority through Vermont State statute and ensure due process protecting the rights of applicants as well as the rights of the public to participate in proposals for land development within the city. Appeals of decisions made by this board are heard by the Vermont Superior Court Environmental Division and the Vermont Supreme Court. My name is Matt Basiewicz. I'm the chair of the DRB. Harlan Miller is our vice chair. He is not here tonight. Elsie Goodrich is our secretary and she is not here yet. Current members are Erin Gayet, David Weisberger, Jordan Matt and Emily Morris. Boats and recommendations are always cast in closed deliberative session that will usually take place after the hearing tonight. But if that's not possible, it will take place as soon after tonight's hearing as possible so we can make a decision in a timely manner. We ask anyone participating in tonight's hearings to swear or affirm that all testimony is entirely the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury. We will ask you to say, I affirm before testifying, raise your right hand if you'd like. Online Zoom participants, of which I don't know that there are any right now, we have one. Oh, we do have one. Okay. Okay, we will ask online participants to testify after all in-person testimony is complete. Next up on our agenda, we will entertain changes to our current agenda. If you would like to suggest a change to our agenda tonight, please let me know now. And hearing none and seeing none, we can move on. Next up, Vermont State Statute allows for public comment at every public meeting. If you have something that you'd like to discuss that is not on our current agenda tonight, this is your opportunity. No comments in the room. Perfect. Thank you. Next up on our agenda is to approve the previous meeting's minutes. I did flip through them. I did not see any changes that I thought needed to be made. But if anybody else does, either in the room or on our board, please let me know now. Not seeing anything. Not seeing anything? All right. I will take a motion to approve our last meeting minutes. I make a motion to approve last January's meeting minutes. I'll second it. Yup, seconded. Seconded. All right. All those in favor, please raise your hand and say aye or give a thumbs up. Aye. I can't see you, but I'm assuming that was unanimous. I hope that was unanimous. Any abstentions? Not everybody voted. I think not everybody voted. All right. All those who say no, please state that now. And any abstentions, please let us know now. That was near. Several abstentions. Oh, I thought. OK, so we've got. So for the purposes of tonight, since we've got six of you here, in this case, Jordan, since you made the motion, you'll be our alternate voting on this. So Emily, you won't vote. So we've got three, oh, with two, two abstentions. So OK. So those three, nothing to two abstentions. OK, we do have a quorum with the abstentions in place. Correct. Yes. OK. Awesome. All right. So last month's January's meeting minutes are officially approved. Thank you. Our one substantive item on tonight's agenda is a public hearing on a conditional use request at 165 East Spring Street. I will now invite the applicants as well as any of the representatives to please come forward. And while they're coming forward, I'll just do a quick introduction on this to kind of set the table a bit and talk about why we're here as well. So also when I'm done, if we can open a hearing as well, that would be great. But this is a request for a detached cottage on an existing lot located at 165 East Spring Street. You've seen this parcel in recent meetings. There was a recent request for a subdivision of the property to subdivide kind of the western portion of it off that was approved. That is not included with tonight's agenda in any way, shape, or form. We're strictly looking at the property at 165 East Spring Street. As I mentioned, it's a request for a detached cottage. A detached cottage is listed as a conditional use in our land use regulations. Detached cottages are allowed to be up to 1,000 gross square feet of habitable floor area. So they, as a detached cottage, it's only required to have one parking space. The detached cottage, the setbacks for it are five feet from the adjacent property boundaries. So the proposal does meet all of those standards. It does also include parking for the existing two-unit building that's on the property. It also has to stay below the maximum lot coverage of 50%, which based on the plans that were submitted, it does meet that standard as well. So included with the agenda was a memo from me outlining the standards of review for conditional uses of any kind, whether it be a cottage or other conditional use, as well as the application package that was submitted by the applicants on this matter. So any questions about kind of logistics or the role of you all tonight? Will the state review this for a building permit? Yes, the state will review it for a building permit as well. It will require a state building permit and also a local building permit also. Okay. Now before we get going, is this the, can you, there's an existing structure in this place already. So there's a garage, is that accurate? Yes. Is this a property conversion or is this new construction? So why don't we, before we do that, Matt, why don't we open hearings, swear people in, and then we can let the applicants get into that part. And we'll let them talk. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Not to direct you what to do, but just as a suggestion. Yep. That's totally fine. Thank you. So we do need to open the hearing. So we need a motion to open the hearing from somebody on our board. So moved. Second? Seconded. All those in favor of opening the hearing, please say aye. Aye. All those not in favor, please speak now. And if there are any abstentions, please let me know. Okay. I'm assuming that carried unanimously. Yep. That was your guess. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. So we do have the representatives for the projects with us right now. I will ask before we get going that you all affirm that you are speaking the truth under the pains and penalties burdenary. Please raise your hand and say aye affirm. Aye affirm. Awesome. Thank you so much. And can I get your names and your relationship to the project? Alan Brunet. I am the owner of 165 East Springs. Jason Rouette. I'm an attorney who is representing Mr. Brunet and Ms. Benag in this manner. Thank you. I'm Martin Corsale with Champlain Consulting Engineers, the civil engineer on the project. Thank you. Welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about what you have? Yeah. I think I'd just like to start with answering a question because you mentioned something about the garage. Yeah. Yeah. There is a garage there and right off the bat when I purchased this property, I was very interested in just converting this garage. Unfortunately, it is just not quite where it needs to be. It's not respecting the setbacks. It's very disappointing to me because I need to basically tear it down just to build something that's going to be just a little bit off. But it is what it is. I need to present a project that's going to be acceptable for the DRB and that's what I'm here to do today. But the project that we are here to present is, I hope, meeting every single requirement. Okay. Thank you very much. So it is new construction. And take it away. I'd love to hear more. Sure. So I'll give a quick overview. Actually, Eric did a pretty good job. He stole most of my items that I would usually talk about. So as Alain said, the existing garage that is there would be removed for place with a new structure. The total square footage of that would be 845 square feet. So under the thousand square feet, it's in the same general area, not the same exact area, but we're moving things a little bit. But it's in the same general area, kind of up at the top of the hill. So we are requesting conditional use approval tonight. As Eric had mentioned, we do have parking shown on the site plan for five spaces are required. We're actually showing six. So the five that are required are there are two units in the existing 165 East Springs Street duplex kind of shown down on the bottom of the page there. And then the one space that's required for the cottage, but we are showing a total of six spaces as proposed. Again, lock coverage is just under 35%, which is under the required 50%. And as you can see, the cottage is in yellow. It does meet all of the setback requirements for the accessory structure. I thought the staff memo did a really good job of kind of highlighting our proposal and outlining how we meet the various conditional use standards. Oh, thank you for going through and showing this. So this plan is kind of zoomed in a little bit more. So you can see the gray would be the parking areas on kind of both sides of the building. There's also going to be parking kind of under and in front of the cottage. And then there is stairway that would serve the existing duplex down in the lower portion of the lot. On this plan, you can see we are putting in, I believe, the total number we have. You can see there's six or seven yard drains and two catch basins to handle the stormwater from the site. So what we're proposing is actually going to be a little bit less impervious square footage than is on the site now. But we still do want to. There's really no existing stormwater collection on the site. So we are putting in again a system of yard drains and catch basins to collect and bring it down past that existing duplex. Oh, sure. Sorry. Yeah. Okay, with the microphone, I'm never sure exactly who can hear me. Who can't? This sheet does not show up, but we are proposing municipal water and municipal sewer connections. There is already existing water and sewer on the site. And we are proposing to connect down to the building and then connect to those existing services. That will require a state of Vermont wastewater permit. So this project will certainly be requesting that. And can you clarify to those connections? Are they on Spring Street going down the hill or are they along the road there? They would connect down to the existing structure and then down to Spring Street. So you can kind of see the bottom right there. There's a note that says existing water and sewer services to remain. So that's the existing building is served. And that's how we would be proposing to serve the cottage as well. Is there a sheet that shows that? Is there a plan sheet that shows utilities? Yes, I think it's the next sheet. I think C3 shows that we'd be kind of connecting those right there. Parallel to the stairs on the right of the stairs, you can see there's two separate lines being shown. One for sewer, one for water going down, connecting to the building. And then we would from the building connect to those existing services. And is that common practice to connect under the existing building? Through an existing building, yes. And actually in this neighborhood, it's happened in the recent past. Yeah, David, just to provide a little bit more on that. Typically in the city we will allow for a cottage or an accessory structure of any kind to connect to the existing property provided that the service coming into the property is sufficient to serve it. So that's typically how when accessory dwellings or cottages are built in the city, they typically are served off the existing line from the house. Thank you, and that will be part of the state wastewater application. Stating that the existing services are sufficient. Am I seeing electric coming up from spring as well? I'm not sure that we have the electric on here right now. That we would work with Green Mountain Power to determine where they want that to go. Does the current garage have electricity? It does, I think it can support, it's just like four lights. And I believe that the garage doors are electric. So it's probably like 15 amps, and it's just like connecting to the main electrical panel. I do have a separate bill. So as I'm squinting to look at that, you are correct. We are showing it running up the hill, connecting the two as well. So we would confirm that with Green Mountain Power. But yes, you are right. We are showing that on the plan, connecting from the house up to the cottage. Thank you. I'm doing the same thing, squinting, I'm, yeah. I can help you in. No, no, it's it's. Yeah, no, it's it's it's a makeshift. I'm supposed to be in Wienewski right now, so I apologize. And can you tell us a little bit more about the structure itself? Bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchen setup, expected number of occupants, that kind of thing. So I believe so there are more some architectural provided two bedroom structure and how you can see the on the right side of the screen there. There's the kitchen layout going into a living dining with a bedroom on that floor, also a bathroom. And then on the I believe that's the. Third floor, correct. So there's to the second floor. Sorry, sorry, if you can use the microphone just so that we make sure that the online folks can hear you. OK, sure. Sure. All right. So yeah, so. What's on the left there is the first level. So there's two levels total. And what's on the left on the upper part is it's like half a parking. So if you will, the cars and we can see that on a different page, but the cars are like halfway out. And that was like kind of an interesting design that the architect came up with, because the the parking situation, being what it is, he had to scratch his head a little bit to make sure that we respect all the the the setbacks. And this design allows us to to do that. So yeah, so that's the first level there. So only half of the space is finished. And then the second level. So there's one bedroom in the basement and the bathroom in the basement. And then on the second level, there is there is basically like a full one bedroom apartment with the kitchen, bathroom, living room and then another bedroom. So that's the that's a design. It has some elevations. Yes, we'll we'll actually take comments after their presentation. We'll be able to come up and ask questions as well. The driveway where you have the carports set up is is it is the driveway at higher elevation where those cars park or are they driving up into what is kind of like a garage, but not really. I'm just wondering about concerns about. Water affecting the house, because it looks like it looks like that garage area is closed on three sides only, which potentially could lead to problems. If there are if there's water collecting there. Sure, that was one of the kind of the trickier parts of the site design. One of the planchees that show, so we're actually going to be say coming from Norman Corr who would be slowing down to a low point and then back up into the garage, which kind of shows it slightly there, but that would be the intent is that it would slope away from the garage to a low point that then bring up on there. Then that drains down to one of the arcraines that collect for the catch basis. Well, the plan again, Eric site plan. Yeah, was there a particular one with the cars on it? So C2 doesn't have the car, but that shows the accessible to the car. So my question is about the walkway on the side of the house. How wide is that? And is there any way to ensure it doesn't get blocked because it seems like it's pretty important, especially for the people with the cars on the other side that they'd be able to get out through there. I'm wondering if it needs some ballers there. I believe that walkway is three feet wide. I have to have a scale plan in mind that in a second. So the way this would actually work is I believe the plan is that each of the stack parking on each side of the cottage to on say the West side to on the East side, each be for an individual unit at the new plants. We, there is also access from those parking spaces on the right to get down to the stairs. So if we were to look at the grading plan, there's a bunch of spot elevations, but you can't actually access the back of the cottage in the stairs from either those parking spaces on the side. It then the people who are actually parked on the other side of the cottage. So we had the cottage, not the new place. So there's not as much need for them. We still want to keep that walkway open, you're correct, but there will be access from parking on both sides to get to those stairs. The one, the cars in the building are for the cottage or not? Yes, those are for the cottage. And then each side is one of the duplex. Correct. Yes. Yeah. It just like, especially the right looks really tight like for opening your doors and walking through there. So that you maintained the five feet to the, it's not, it's gravel. It's not, or is it paved? It would be paved. It's paved. Correct. So is it five feet to the gravel or to the pavement? Sorry. From the set, from the property line. Yeah, you can just see there's a dash dot line on that east side. It hits that five foot setback. So yes, we are. Which is not required. Is that correct, Eric? Sorry, what was the question? The park, the pavement can go into the setback or not? I have to review that. I think for new new driveways or parking areas, I don't know that it can. Okay. But I will double check here quickly. I think that's only for existing that it can encroach into those setbacks to accommodate potentially two cars side by side. I believe is how the standard is written. And then there was some mention in the, in the narrative about fencing. I guess for falls or was that to keep the cars on there? Is that retaining wall? That would be along the retaining wall more so near the stairs, I believe, and ended by the cars. But the retaining wall will be higher than the pavement. We don't want things to be retaining walls. It will be higher sooner than access of the car. Thank you. What is it? Oh, go ahead. What's the plan for trash and recycling management? Well, that's a good one. You know, when I learned tonight that we only needed five parking spots, I was thinking maybe we can use one of those spots for four trash cans. But that was a little bit of a head scratcher for me. I know that we have access to E-Spring. So maybe potentially I could come up with something for the trash to be picked up of E-Spring. But I don't know, but Marty, do you want to weigh in on this one? Yeah, so we had looked at it. I don't think we'd be proposing any sort of. We got a stirper here. It would be individual, you know, of totes. And there's certainly room in the garage, or in the garage slash cardboard, as we're calling it, for the cottage. On the right, we do have room on the south side of where those cars are shown, and then we need to see where we can fit, you know, that may be for both of the occupants in the duplex. We did look at citing some of those, and it was certainly really to put some in the garage, in the cottage, and then you know, wheeled out our trash today. How is it picked up now? Is it on Norman Court to pick up? Yes, well, so yeah, they are, they are on the, on sometimes some tenants prefer to have them down by the duplex. This is, we can't see that here, but it's a pretty steep hill going up from the duplex. It's quite a bit lower than, as you can appreciate with those stairs there. Yes. So currently, the tenants that are there are strong and mobile and young, so they don't mind hauling up those trash cans all the way up. They go through Norman Court and they go all the way to Hood Street and put them there. And we are putting them right now in front of a neighbor's property because we don't have any alternative, but, you know, so far it's been totaled into that. That's not, that would, I have to say this would add one tote, probably, to the trash burden. Right now I have two totes for trash and two totes for a recycle. So I can imagine this would add a tote. Do you have a plan for snow removal or snow storage? The thing of that, if, so, if we look at this view that we have now, the two cars on the left, I guess we can just keep pushing the snow exactly where it is there and I don't see why we couldn't do that on the right, you know, for those both tandem parkings, I think we can just push snow there. Push it down the hill and hope it doesn't turn into an avalanche. Well, you know, like the path between the new college and the duplex is through the stairs. I intend to cover that. So if we add snow there, I don't think it's going to have any kind of impact. What is the, just totally changing the subject. I'm assuming you're dealing with concrete walkways around the cottage. If that's incorrect, please let me know. But also what is the material of the stairs? Is it going to be wood on concrete slabs or deck construction the whole way? Yeah, the stairs, I was thinking that wood on concrete stairs with some kind of cover. Yeah. So this won't have to be shoveled. So a little bit more cost upfront, but no maintenance down the line and less risk for injuries. Yeah. And then the pathways, the sidewalks could be asphalt or concrete. Okay. I'm so sorry. The stairs you said would wood on concrete slabs? Yes. The concrete landings? Okay. Correct. Yeah. Well, in front of the cars. Do you mean from pavement level up or off the backside? Oh, pavement level up. Okay. Next question for Eric. Just 15 inches. Okay. Oh, sorry. So sorry. I was just finishing up. Yeah. It's probably a question for Eric, but without seeing a design for a roof structure over the stairs and walkway, is that something that's going to have to come back to us to get approved or how is that going to get permitted? It should not because it would it would basically count as lot coverage, but since the stairs are being put in, they are also counting as lot coverage. There may be a need for a building permit depending on how they're designed, but there wouldn't be a need for you all to review it. Okay. Okay. Great. The entrances for the duplex. All right. So if we look at the path with the way that the path is going, so we're going down those stairs. There's two. There's one landing another step. Then there's a diagonal stairs. We can see there's some stairs going up on the duplex. Yes. Yes. So that that is for the second level on the other side of this little box that so if we keep going down just a little bit per maybe I can just drive it. Oh yeah. That's good there. Okay. All right. So this is basically like a balcony. So people enter. They have those two steps. They enter and this is a door right there to enter. The this is the main level if you will and this one here is the those stairs are leading up to the second level. So the diagonal portion is paved as new. Yeah. So this is non-existent at this point. But yes, we will have to build that. Yeah. And then what what is the surface between the stairs to the lower unit and so as Marty mentioned and I'm thinking probably I'm going to do like all of this is going to be probably cement but I'm not the hundred percent sure. I don't know if it makes a difference at this stage that if pavement is an option but I think that probably cement is going to be a better option. I think it's a little bit more portable to bring there because right now everything is accessible. But once we start to do all this, it's going to be a little bit harder to get down. So I think cement is easier to bring to what I'm actually asking is from the porch for the for the lower level. How does it get around to the back this part here? No, where he exits with the other unit exits right here. Yeah. So right now, so sorry, just so we're aware the folks online can't see what you're all pointing at. So I just want to make sure that I am also clear on what you're showing so I can. So if I understood that correctly, the lower steps could keep going down. That is the entrance to one of the units. That's the porch or a balcony to the to the lower unit. Oh, I can answer that. And so how do you get from there back to your new path? Okay, so I can answer that. So right now as it is, it's all paved. So so this, you know, like I would just leave it paved. I would just leave that this pavement has been this area has been fully repaved. I would say I think it was like three years ago. So the pavement is in really good condition there. So does that that should show on here, right? And count for the lot coverage probably that doesn't it is a counter in the lot coverage. So this this is a dash line. Turkey plants that we that exist. That dashed line is the existing driveway and parking lot for the duplex the driveway and most of that is going to come out when the kind of when this project happens and to allow for the duplex on the subdivide a lot that's on the west side of the property. So I wanted to make sure that we show that because that's the existing condition today. So it's difficult to have existing conditions plan for us and plus an approved conditions plan plus the proposed. So that may have been a little confusing, but we will be leaving a strip of asphalt between those two. That's that existing asphalt is there now, but we can certainly clean up the plan. So you it's more defined as to what would be coming out in what's staying. But so so the if you left the maximum to the property line, it would still fit under the that's what you calculated for. We didn't calculate the maximum we didn't calculate all the way to the property line. We have it off the property line at least that by three percent. Right. So they didn't make whatever. Yeah. Okay. Great. Thanks. Yeah. Very good question. Looks again. It's difficult to know all that that's kind of three different phases of this project. Is that probably still being used right now? I'm assuming. Yes. Okay. In terms of construction, is everything intending to come down from Norman Court or are you proposing anything from? Yeah. So no, so for this project for the for the garage demolition and bringing materials to the construction of this new structure, we're going to have to use Norman Court. Yeah. And and you know, once we get a little bit more into questions about Norman Court, this is going to be Jason's forte here. Thank you for bringing you know, dude, should we jump into this now? I don't have a not unless they want to. Well, I was just going to ask what what is the status? I mean, we saw you a year and a half ago. What is the status of like kind of the other project? And the reason I ask is because there were, you know, this current property you're talking about, there were modifications to the property shown in that plan set. And has any of that been done? As part of the other project, so to the quick answer is no. Yes, so I did obtain, you know, the subdivision and I'm grateful for that and what's going to happen there is going to depend on what happens up there. So, you know, I'm a nurse as a regular job and I'm not a developer, but I lined up, you know, good quality, you know, contractors fully licensed and everything. We do have some units. Me and my wife, we have, you know, 19 rental units. We've done plenty of remodeling. But construction is something new for me. So I want to see how this is going to play out. It's a small cottage. It's a smaller project, 85, you know, 850 square feet. The other one we're talking about like more like up of 2000 square feet on three levels and so I would say that if the cottage goes well and then, you know, I might, you know, develop that, that duplex myself and if it doesn't go as planned and if it's more headache than anything, then I would sell that subdivision. So maybe this is a question for Eric. If this gets approved, does this supersede like the previous plan? So the previous plan was for subdivision. So that didn't include any land development necessarily, but it did talk about, if I remember correctly, removal of some of the driveway features and asphalt that would be that are associated with 165 East Spring Street. So I think if you are inclined to consider, however you choose to consider this, that could be something that's included as a condition that some of those factors from that subdivision be addressed prior to moving forward with this project. If I may add something now, now that we have this up. So one of it, so they're like removing the pavement is something that we're definitely going to do with this. And then we needed to bring stairs and I didn't know exactly where their stairs were going to be. I didn't want to build those stairs twice. So I'm not saying this is why I did this, but certainly when I was considering this was definitely a box that was checking on the positive, you know, that the idea that if I develop this and I take care of those stairs, they're exactly where they need to be. And at this point, we have the subdivision approved and yes, it's conditional, but we're not going to develop or sell until, you know, like those, those, those conditions are still in the back of my mind and I would not try to, I don't think I could do anything without, you know, meeting those, those things. And yes, this is going to check a few boxes by, by, by developing this. Yeah, there was some, so there's also some easements required on this current piece of property to make that other one work. Are those all in place at this point? So if I remember correctly, it was something about division. If we were to, so, so this, this is interesting because we, when we applied for this, we were just applying for the subdivision. But of course the board were like, why do you want to subdivide? And we said, well, we would probably build like a duplex and this is what it would look like. And then we went a little bit further and one of the questions were like, well, if, if a car gets out, then can they see? And the answer was no. So we needed to trim some bushes and it was not a whole lot of changes that needed to be done, but there were some things that needed to be done. And at this point, you know, like nobody's getting out of there, the duplex is not built. And, you know, but of course if we are to go for the building permit and all that, then we're going to need to address those. But at this point, I have not changed that and that easement was for visibility and safety. If a car gets out of that duplex, that is not approved. So it is still like, was there something else? Marty. I was just going to add that easement that's being discussed is shown on the plaque that was filed. So that has been for the subject. It's shown with the subdivision. It's shown on the plaque, but it's, is it recorded in the lender? It's not. It is recorded. Yes. That's the subdivision is recorded and there are separate, separate written descriptions that are also recorded as part of those easements. So they, they are on file with the city's land records. Eric, you can probably answer this question better than anybody, but I know that going back a year and a half and then going back a couple of years prior to that, there were some issues determining Norman court and property lines and also whether HOA is involved and things of that nature. Do you know if that has been settled? And if Norman court is, if this is, if this fits where it needs to be. Yeah. So as I understand it and Jason is with the applicants group can, can speak more about this. But as my understanding is that Norman court is located on private property, but there are rights of access to the properties that are along Norman court. So that would include 165 East Spring Street, 153 East Spring Street, which is the newly subdivided piece next to it. I believe it's addressed as 159 East Spring Street and then I want to say 150 70 Spring Street, which is the farthest one in. I believe all of those properties have a right to use Norman court, but it is on private property. So it is not. I don't believe it's under any type of association or group effort to any type of maintenance agreements or things like that. So, but I'll, I'll let Jason add any more that if he so chooses. Yeah, that would be great. So yeah, same question. Thank you. Sure. So about a year and a half ago, we researched the status of Norman court because there are some questions is to how wide it was and what purposes it allowed and in our research and this is detailed in the letter that I sent to the board on March 5th. Yep. And that's included with your agenda and with the materials as well. So you should have all seen that the right of way benefiting this slot and Mr. Burnett's other lot was first established in 1939 and it was described as and I quote or perpetual right of way for all purposes to and from hood street over the said driveway, which is not to exceed 25 feet and width. So that was the first time it established the width of the right of way, but it also established that it was a right of way for all purposes. It did not put any qualifying language in or any limitations for the use of that right of way and the width and the ability of these property owners to utilize that right of way were further established in a declaratory action brought by what they refer to as the Court of Chancery and that was 1956 and Court of Chancery ruled and I quote Norman Court is hereby judged into decree to be a right of way of 25 feet wide running between the lands owned by the plaintiffs on East Spring Street. And that so that that officially codified or officially established how wide Norman Court was and I don't think there has been anything in the records that would indicate that anything to the contrary. So the short of it is that Norman Court has been as was established many years ago is a right of way for all purposes to and from Hood Street and then it's 25 feet width and again that was established both by deed and a court order by the Vermont Superior Court. I'll also just add and I don't know the details of it but Matt Parisi is online. He is the owner of 159 East Spring Street. He some of you were on the board several years ago when he had proposed a cottage as well on his property. That was actually appealed to the Environmental Division of the Vermont Superior Court and there was some action taken on that I believe related to the access as part of that process. So after when we get to testimony if Matt wants to provide any additional detail he's welcome to do that or ask any other questions. So okay to add that I'm going to get to the gist of why I asked that question in looking Google Maps is obviously Google Maps. It's not city records. For some reason Google Maps has that access listed as Rams Way and we see it here as Norman Court. Does the city of Winooski recognize this as a named street private or public? I don't believe the city does because it's on private property because it does not meet city standards for a for a roadway. I do not believe that the city recognizes it as a public or private way or I should say a private way. It definitely does not recognize it as a public way. I think it's just recognized more as a as a deeded or a private access to these properties. Okay and given the potential for confusion this I'm this is literally the first time I've seen Rams Way. I'm like where'd that come from but given the potential for confusion is their concern with emergency services accessing these properties via Norman Court or Rams Way should they need to. I'm going to say well first of all I'm not going to speak for the emergency services but I do know that there is a correspondence between Martin and our Fire Marshal related to access on Norman Court and they have indicated the Fire Marshal has indicated that Norman Court can be used as the access to serve this property. So they are I mean they're aware of this this access because it does serve multiple properties and they were involved with the previous discussions when it came up at 150 90 Spring Street and those discussions. So I believe there were some maintenance agreements or some maintenance that was needed in order for the fire department in particular to recognize this as a as an available access for them. So they at least acknowledge that this is the access for these properties and I'll just I'll defer to their the correspondence that they've provided. Okay. Yeah, my my concern was just if you know there's an ambulance call whatever something somebody needs help really quickly I feel like eliminating confusion would be beneficial for all. So that's that's where I was going but there's nothing that this particular project can do about that I don't think so but maybe it's just up for discussion layer. I think that's all the questions I had any but does anybody else on the board have questions for our our applicants? I do. Do I remember from the subdivision that there was some question as to the then I guess that's the northern boundary as the property been surveyed to locate that that line? Yes, the property has been surveyed. I think that might have been at one of our requirements one of our preliminary hearings but that's certainly been that the surveyor had that all done in you know deed research prior to recording the subdivision plan. Okay. Anybody else have questions? I'm trying to remember back I feel like we we heard from the owner of Norman Court last time and one of their concerns was parking and how how would you plan to enforce parking so that you know the residents and or their guests you know don't end up parking in the Norman Court right away? Yeah so the current garage situation where the garage is actually located right now there's my tenants park in front of the garage. I don't know if we can see the footprint of the garage but it's essentially yeah is it what's in beige is the actual garage no oh okay okay okay so basically where we see the windshield of the cars is is where the garage ends all right so once we close the garage doors the cars stick out onto his property so the current situation violates his you know we're not respecting the setbacks as of now the new design fixes that I don't know if that answers your... And just to add that is part of the reason that we're moving the footprint of the garage is so that we can park on that side but outside of the right of way. That's also how we came out with this design that's a little bit awkward but it makes sense once you get familiar with the project that's why we're the cars are halfway in and into the building because I would I would love to be able to finish that space downstairs this has no value to me but but you know that's what we have to do to respect the setbacks. I wonder just thinking out loud if you could stripe or put a line on the property line since it's going to be paved you know so they know how far and they need to be you know what I mean like I don't know maybe that's excessive but I'm just thinking I wonder if Aaron's question had to do with like you have guests who are all of a sudden they're parked behind that row of cars. Yeah what I can say is this is going to be a lot better than the current situation we're not going to be like but yes I intend to pave around the and certainly paving on my property line where as far as I can pave you know is what I intend to do also we were talking about the water drainage you know so we're going to have from Norman Court it's going to be going down and before you go to the garage it's going to be going up a little bit and and then it's going to be sloping this way so you're going to have basically I know that people can see me online but if you can imagine it a little bit of a V shape but obviously V is too aggressive but it's going to be a little bit like this and then like that so so the water the surface water is going to go to the right there and then it's going to get caught into one of those water drains I know the question was not about water but but yeah so would with the pavement end at the property line you would need permission to pave beyond yeah or no I'll go as far as I can have it I don't I'm sorry I don't master all the details here but you know when I when I actually contract this out I'll make sure that the scope of the work is clear and and I will you know have it you know clear so they can know where to where to end but but I don't think I'm allowed to I don't know how far I'm allowed to go well I mean I don't think the right of way is allows you to pave there right no I don't think so I to be honest with you I don't think there's anything that suggests that couldn't to be honest with the right way is for all purposes we couldn't build something like I'm going to build a house in the way I can't do anything that would interfere with anyone's use and enjoy them as long as he isn't changing the nature of the right of way in such a way that interferes with anyone's use as long as it's consistent with the needed use I mean would I recommend highly suggest you talk to the owner yeah I wouldn't recommend paving over the right of way absent authority from the owner but is there is there any language that explicitly prohibits it the answer would be no and that is that is the funny thing about for all laws there's pretty well established case law which states that if something isn't explicitly excluded from the use of the right of way a court cannot read into read restrictions into a right of way but again getting I'm sorry yeah go ahead oh no yeah getting back to parking and not restricting that right of way do you have a plan in place for guest parking that did come up and I don't know if it was answered if all three tenants have a couple people over on a Friday night all of a sudden you've got four extra cars that want to visit these places where do you put them the short answer is yes so on East Springs on the I don't know the on the well from the duplex if you cross East spring on that side there the tenants can park if they just go to the city and ask for a free parking tag so they could whenever they're having guests go park there they would be parked like in very close vicinity honestly I think that the street parking versus the up parking there would be very similar in distance for them probably involve a little bit less stairs actually and so they could certainly park there and invite their guests to park there I don't think that the guest can park on East string on East spring they can certainly park on Hood Street that is you know that is permitted I don't know about the overnight rules of Windows key when it comes down to winter and I don't have that kind of details but but that would be the plan there so I'll just say a couple words on that first of all there is there is no on-street parking on East spring Street and Hood Street for I don't know how much of it but I know a portion at least is resident only and with these properties addressed as East spring they would not qualify as residents because they don't have a Hood Street address so I don't know how far up the resident parking goes because of the whole length of Hood Street or not but to up to the fountain street or if it is only a portion of Hood Street but so the those would not be options for parking East spring has it up past Franklin I think sorry yes up not not in this section right not but I don't believe yet below I think it's actually only a I think it's actually not until you get up past Barlow that there's on-street parking on East Spring Street there might be some on the north side around Barlow as well there's some up above the parking lot across from St. Stevens that's resident I think yeah I'd have to look at that but yeah there's in this area on East Spring Street there's no there's no on-street parking down this far okay sorry I'm just going through the maps and just looking looking to see where the most convenient on-street parking would be and I'm struggling here so that that's going to be a that's going to be a concern of mine the the impact of the neighborhood should that happen are there any other questions from our board though hearing none I don't want to interrupt anybody but I was giving them a chance to answer up before the parking so we again we are required five spaces and we're showing six so there is one yeah we could consider one as a visitor parking starting point okay okay great for what it's worth right now my tenants you know that my duplex is fully occupied and both units for both units there's only one car okay and I know that I can't say this is always going to be the case sometimes you know different tenants might have different situations but it certainly is something that I am conscious about when I when I rent apartments that being I know that when we make a decision in regards to this there's going to be probably more landlords on the road and different tenants but but I just thought I'd bring this up there's only one car right now for the duplex yeah okay and I know yeah we're moving I mean so much of society is moving towards kind of going carless but you know I want to make sure that the neighbors are not negatively affected if the people just want to have a few people over to watch a football game on a Sunday you know I don't want to create a parking situation when guests do come not hearing any more questions from our board I thank you please stay close we will invite anybody else excuse me that is in the room to come up and testify and we will give you a chance to respond to them as well well thank you and Meredith Bush yeah I live at 14 Hood Street before you begin I just like to have you affirm it swear that you are speaking the truth under the paints and penalties of perjury I am thank you so much Meredith welcome thank you so my the residents aren't residences are not labeled my house is may I come up and point they won't see you on line but I can point for you okay so that is my residents right right there's a bit of a lag but so that is my house that is my garage is that 14 hood 14 Hood Street correct okay thank you in and I want to just I point out and remind the board that this is Alan's property going all the way I believe right down here now I'll long this property line is a very steep embankment that is devoid of vegetation and has begun to erode Allen is aware and has been previously uncooperative with any efforts to rectify the erosion that significant erosion will eventually erode and compromise our property line and likely my newly installed fence that was expensive that I put up because of the status of the existing duplex 165 East Spring Street which is the upkeep of that home excuse me is very poor and so I just want to just point out that Alan has been previously uncooperative with any efforts to rectify that steep and embankment that is eroding and a my concern is that that significant erosion will further erode with any kind of new construction it's going to unsettle that land and further erode that steep embankment that Alan has been previously uncooperative firm no not even efforts at planting sod and so another concern I have is with regard to those stairs there are quite a few trees in that area that are quite large and if cutting down those street trees I my question is is there a plan to cut down trees to build those stairs because the trees that are there are helping at least a little bit with that bank that is my question and then also previously I had in previous meetings I had read a 10-foot setback and now I'm hearing five can you explain that so sure yes so this is an accessory structure and the accessory structure has a different standard for the setbacks that the setbacks for an accessory structure are five feet where for the primary structure it's ten feet and then we grant a variance to the little bump we grant a waiver to that because it was an existing structure yes and it's already encroaching into that 10 foot setback but we also as part of that waiver I if I recall we we also said that that it was for the existing structure only and that any alterations would need to come back before the board to be reviewed that was not just a blanket encroachment for the for the property and I have a question is this is this meeting is this section 8 housing does that is that part of this that's not part of application no that's not part of our review okay so those are those are my major concerns is the status of the land after development further development which is this is a new plan with regard to getting an excavator in there and you know new construction and what is the plan for erosion that will occur on the property all of you know both properties are who that are adjacent to that garage and those are my questions my major questions is the great thing into away from your property into balance house it's yes it's going to it's his property that embankment so our it's in that's as per his survey from your property it drops down yet there was there is an existing fence that we left there so it could not was establishment of the property line that we left even though it doesn't look good we put up our new fence that was five feet into our property so we left that fence so it could demonstrate the erosion that is occurring and it was also established as a property line it's pulling the fence down into that duplex and this is the duplex I don't know if you can see but they're you know also there are knocking out the cinder blocks underneath the existing this is the home that's existing the one sixty five each spring and so there's there have been no you know I've reached out in the very professional way to try to work with Alan and he's just an uncooperative to any efforts that kind of rectifying and working together to figure this out he actually said you can do you won't he won't object if you're welcome to fix it I want to act so I was not able to see the picture that you just showed everybody I was curious if you could describe it as well Eric can we do we need to enter that we can if if if you all wish you sent this two years ago it's a previous picture okay that's in the records actually in and nothing has changed the cinder blocks are actually still there and I previously asked about moving those as well and so it is a the duplex one sixty five closely about it's like essentially in our backyard closely about our property and is in poor repair I would some some would call it disrepair and is very poorly maintained in my opinion and the the issue is the ditch the erosion that is occurring on our property and what the plan is for that in addition further compounded by the fact that he may consider if this is approved of course consider chopping down some pretty large trees to build those that stairway that is all that that is all overgrown with trees that where the stairs are proposed to be placed I just to clarify when you say disrepair do you are you referring specifically to the potential condition of the erosion or are you talking about the structure itself I feel like the structure itself especially the lower the foundation it's it's there are no cinder blocks holding up the the exist the it's a essentially like a sunroom that has two levels and the foundation that sits it so it's a sunroom that is attached to the main ranch like split level piece that sunroom two levels on the foundation of that sunroom there are cinder blocks that are the foundation and that entire length of the widest part of the sunroom there are no cinder blocks and so the only cinder blocks are on the the lateral sides okay the major issue is you know that certainly that's not my home that's you know you know certainly the neighbors should file a complaint I'm sure with the city of Winooski my concern is the erosion on his property that is eating away at my property line and eventually our home and in fact that erosion it is an issue with all three homes one two three four homes rather that about Alan's property but primarily it's steepest at my the property line it for my home I believe certainly is going to impact my property line and my my newly installed fence is it possible to have Martin come up and answer some questions well I guess the the question that I would ask is do we want to have all comments from non applicants first and then have the applicants come back up and address any questions or do them one at a time I mean it's I don't have a preference either way I'll look to you all and to Matt to to provide I've been taking some lots of notes so let's I'm assuming there are more people in the room that would like to speak there's what did you want to say okay we while you're thinking about we do have somebody online that does want to has their hand up so we can switch to online and then if Mr. Subard wants to say anything he's in the room here and can come up after okay great so Matt you can go ahead and unmute yourself hi there can you guys all hear me yes welcome great thanks I just had a couple of comments for this I think we obviously need housing all this kind of infill housing is is important so overall I'd like to design speak to a couple of things here because I my project became so involved with the existing neighbors obviously I went to court a couple of things I I talked to Elaine earlier about already and he was totally for Norman court needs a we need a road agreement in place for all of us we set up one with the quarries who own technically own Norman court but currently only myself and the quarries are part of that road maintenance agreement Elaine said he had no problem you know kind of becoming part of that as well so I'd have to have the participation of the quarries but for all of us because the city is not purchasing or taking over Norman court you know at some point down the line it will need work I I put about two inches of sure pack over it basically rebuilt it when I built the cottage which is actually right next to his proposed cottage right there yeah so anyways that's I like I said Elaine and I spoke before this he said he was fine with that I think it's a good idea it's a good condition to have just so that all the landowners along that you know are involved in that process the only other thing I would say if Elaine was open to it because I think it would alleviate some of his retaining wall problems and potentially erosion problems for me is when I built mine because mine was also set right against that five foot accessory setback on the western border there on the left side there where those cars are the existing driveway is basically butts upright against that five foot setback that driveways assuming I'm assuming going to be removed obviously when this plan comes to fruition and it would be my idea for both of us and help his retaining wall if that was infilled kind of hard to exactly show it but infilled so that it helped with erosion both for his retaining wall and for how my land slopes directly on to where it used to go down to the driveway doesn't have to do it but I think it would it would help with the retaining wall there regarding the other issues I've spent a lot of time there I'm the builder owner developer etc the one really big tree that Elaine's gonna have to take down as a popular tree I'm by no means an arborist but I've done a lot of work with trees over years having to take down trees for various projects it's a popular tree it's near end of life their signs of serious their signs of serious what do you call it the branches and so on and so forth that are dying at the top so anyways sorry about this did you did you construct your accessory cottage is that is that all is that in it is yeah that is in I was trying to bring up some plans just to kind of show the course that's sorry give me one second Matt you won't be able to share your screen to see those just okay all right my question is it does seeing as you you built 25 30 feet away with a similar slope does the plan for water runoff storm water runoff and snow possible snow storage does this seem feasible to and if what I'm assuming what you did if it's working then you have not had noticeable erosion coming from you know I yeah so again I wish I could share so I mine's a bit different because I have a long front you know I have a relatively long what do you call it I guess it would be rear rear line rear property line that goes along Norman Court so my parking is all stacked right next to each other there I built a retaining wall also in front of the existing residents and then I added stows snow storage by moving the fence I was required with the neighbors the legal agreement to put a fence up there but I moved the fence back to allow for snow storage and so that you could get two cars passed on Norman Court in the event of you know a turnaround as far as him putting snow what's not shown there is he can actually put the snow kind of right at the corner of that property line essentially yeah how do I say that kind of right at the I guess it would be either the three corners there yeah exactly exactly now again I'm not I'm not a snow removal expert but you can put it there generally speaking though I mean you you're never going to get a plow guy into where these cars are all parked so snow removal there usually becomes the tenant responsibility because you can't get a plow guy in there as far as Norman Court the quarries that I have an agreement they have somebody that plows relatively reasonable and at the end of Norman Court there's a huge you know there's a large turnaround in a snow storage area so the shared driveway is got plenty of space for snow removal and was slightly widened when I built the cottage there so as far as snow where the cars are going to be parked is quite minimal and like I said you would never you would never get a snow plow in there no matter what be a snowblower at best okay and as far as erosion control with with storm water because you've got a pretty steep drop yeah so mine also sat mine sits a little bit farther towards Norman Court just because of my property line we obviously put a silt fence up when we were building we did a little bit of regrading but so far I haven't had any erosion problems I don't think a lane has either you know there's grass that grows there I again I haven't noticed any kind of like settling your issues like that but you know it is a hill okay yeah it's I'm trying to I'm trying to look here it looks like it's about a 50 foot drop from Norman Court to spring what is but that's also really far that's probably over almost a hundred feet or more it's it's not and it's not it's not it's pretty there's steep in a couple sections and it's gradual and then it's most of that elevation has gained really the last probably 20 or 30 feet on the edge of East Spring Street there okay okay and the edge of East Spring Street is and the engineers could speak to this is got tons of huge old trees in there that are anchoring the bank fairly well oaks and maples and so on and so forth anyway that's kind of all I have to say I just want to I think again a lame is for this road maintenance agreement since we're all gonna you know there's all obviously be more cars there I think that's it thanks thank you any other questions for Matt none out here none of the room all right thank you so much Matt is there anybody else that would like to speak either online or in the hall you'd be the only other person here for us right thanks so much please yes please affirm and tell me tell me your name I appreciate it my name is Chris so far I live at 16 Hood Street I'm right on the side of Norman Court okay yeah right there so first question is are you really you you really have five feet you're my fence I don't boy kind of hard it's kind of hard to believe with this is drawing that you're gonna end up with five feet number one number two we're gonna take out that driveway because they tried fence they tried stairs there before where they cover with sidewalls and everything people got hurt and the rest of the stairs are sitting behind your garage right now they made the point before you guys still want us to do this people are going to get hurt it's steep that's why they always ended up walking down the driveway we got the driveway clean Norman Court how much big equipment are you going to bring in because that road can't take much more keep telling you that and it just seems to keep going right over the top you bring an excavator on that road you're going to rip it right to hell it's just that simple you know pick up trucks one thing maybe a very very small dump is one thing anything bigger than that it just kills that road it's not really road is a driveway like you said it's a right away and merit is right I've seen your husband cutting trees that have fallen because of the erosion into their yard so it's eventually going to start in my yard now here's another thing you talked about the wastewater runoff what about the two natural springs there's one at the beginning of the quarry property right at the beginning of Norman Court and there's one that runs right down by fence line that's part of your problem with water building up there besides your waste sites wastewater and stormwater I've never anybody addressed the springs they're not going to go away they've been there forever I've been living in my house for 60 years and that fence line where I am is wet until at least August every year would you mind just clarifying where those springs are on the map that we have up right now my fence line is one of them right there and the other one is at the beginning of Norman Court there's another one somewhere down a little ways I'm not exactly sure where it is I think in between over towards where Parisi is but that was not very big the other two are right we're the one side that's Norman Court in my driveway and Corey's driveway come that little right there is soaked every year wet okay dries out never in my fence like I said my fence line doesn't dry out till August yeah okay they're not going to go away and nobody's addressed that you've been there forever I've been in my house 60 years the same thing every year and I've seen that they'll stare things twice been built twice been ripped out before someone got killed so it's very pretty but it doesn't work and it's going to be proven again that's what I mean if you're going to keep you better you better keep your driveway that you got now going down there because people are going to end up walking down there in the winter time even if you put a like I said they put roof on it before they put sides on it before because it's almost blowing in from the sides people still got hurt you know it's been principle it looks great and in fact it doesn't work that's about all I have okay I thank you Chris does anybody have a question any questions for Chris before we oh means up is there anybody else I would like to speak those are the only folks that are here other than the applicants okay then I would like to invite the applicants to come back up and address some concerns thank you I think probably quite a few things we do address first and then I'll pass it on down the line so one of the sheets in our package we are planning it's required but we also know the site needs it there is an erosion prevention sediment control plant that's been provided that's primarily for the new construction that we were doing so that's really primarily the driveway the cottage the retaining wall and also stabilizing the bank where the utility services would be going in so I think that's something I can certainly discuss with the land to we need to expand that scope a little bit more if we're already in there stabilizing construction and we're a few feet away from maybe some exposed bank it would be certainly a good time to address that stabilization as well since we're going to be in there doing other disturbances so I certainly think that's something that we can we can incorporate into the plans for any existing erosion concerns tie those in with the construction erosion prevention sediment control plant can you speculate not sorry interrupt but can you speculate on how the new construction might affect the erosion on that side would it would it change the situation in any way or accelerate the erosion potentially so I would not given the shape of the land what's going to be kind of draining down and also the new catch basins there's going to be really less surface water but I don't think the surface water from our property is what is eroding I think it's the surface water coming from the hoods tree properties so our construction is not necessarily going to change the amount of water that's eroding those and again we'll be stabilizing any of our construction so wouldn't be exacerbating any any existing even if we were to say that wasn't brought up or for whatever we said no we're just going to do only what we're disturbing so I don't think our construction would be making that problem any worse I wasn't going to jump around but it's kind of related this is already brought up the the springs that he said are out there I know he said that in previous hearings that we've been at that's one of the reasons we actually have as many yard drains as we do because we want to make sure that we have adequate drainage for surface water this is a very small site with really not a lot of impervious area normally problem probably wouldn't have as many yard drains but with the testimony previously that there are some springs we do have multiple yard drains shown to make sure that anything that he's getting to the surface we can we can get out and around the site now jumping backwards where Matt Parisi I think again that's something we would have to discuss a little bit but I do like the idea that he had mentioned of potentially connecting the retaining wall so we have that retaining wall on the left side that kind of follows the property line parallel to those two cars on the left side if he has a retaining wall kind of doing the same thing on his cottage which I think is right around where there's a note there that says five foot accessory side set back with a tree symbol above it connecting those certainly is going to give our site a little bit more room a little bit easier construction and actually a probably a better finished product and it would give us kind of snow storage in that corner so I think that's certainly something that I don't think that said to connect them I think you said grading in between there and that I don't think we'd want to see them connected right well I don't know that they could because it would cross a property boundary so I don't it would depend on some of the specifics of it but I don't believe it would be able to cross that property boundary so I guess I'm not sure you just I think Matt was saying like if you filled in between his project in your project although I don't know that we want to get in the middle of that right like right that's all that that could be done like after the shirt yeah okay so I guess I missed understood that yeah okay so okay so that would be interesting to fill between two retaining walls but certainly something that we could discuss further and I don't think that's something we need to to discuss here just want to make sure I pointed to that mr. Savari had had a question about whether we're five feet to his fence or not again this was all surveyed in by a license for Montlant surveyor so that's the data that we're using and that's how these plans were developed and there is a five-foot setback that's shown as a kind of a lighter line that the dark double-dash line is the actual property line and then yep the dash dot line kind of see yep right there that is that by foot setback line based on the surveyed property line and then I guess just the the damage to Norman court or potential damage to normal court during construction mr. Parisi was able to do his construction it sounds like and have it successfully done in a way that didn't damage Norman Court so it would be our intent to do the same I think those were the kind of those are the things I had flagged myself to talk about I'm going to pass the mic down unless there's specific questions well I think you you've answered pretty much you know all the all the bullet points that I you know the notes that I took when when people were speaking I just want to say something real quick about the cinder blocks they're not foundation they're just so what happens is there's like an extension there's like two solar rooms I don't know if we can show the duplex but basically the duplex is on foundation like a true like a cement port cement foundation and then there is an extension where there's two solar rooms and that one on top of each other and that's hell on the structure this is how it's held and they were cinder blocks at the bottom so kind of block the space from crawling creature creatures to go under and those have fallen over the years and and yeah so that's why there's some cinder blocks that are missing there but they're not part of the structure for city and yes to answer mr. Savar like you mentioned the property all of this it was surveyed so it's difficult to imagine what it's going to be like unless you you know like like the garage is going to be completely gone and the property is going to be like you know in a slightly different location and as it is now the garage has a little bit of encorgement on mr. Savar's property and actually I was hoping to convert this garage into a cottage and I tried to speak with mr. Savar's wife to see if she would be open to maybe change property lines or something like this but she didn't seem to be very open with that so that's why I had to get you know engineers and architects and the whole shebang because I needed to present a project that would be acceptable because the converting the cottage as it is has some encorchments that are that would not you know get approved as far as getting excavators there I would say that you know exactly like you said like you know Matt did it but it sounds like Matt had to do some repairs to the to the drive after you some some sure pack and I intend to do no less you know my intention is that once a project has is done Norman court will be a little bit better than than than when we started so I don't want to do well with this so mention about the erosion once again you know how my property is lower than hood so the water is coming from their property to mine so it's also a rotting mine but of course the last section of their property is also getting a road I did mention that I was open to if you if all the neighbors want to have something that is a little bit more comprehensive for the water management there I'm open to chip in my share but I think that what you will propose them is you should ring the entire burden of retaining the water is coming from your property well then how is your property sorry guys I'm gonna interrupt you okay the yeah I can't hear anything between you two this is a discussion with the board okay sounds thank you so yeah it sounds as though you would be open to discussing the stabilization with neighbors yeah yep and once we have the excavator there if I have some you know suggestions by engineers you know you can do this and do that then as of now like like like Marty mentioned there's going to be some water holes like some drains that are going to be there that are not there currently so the surface water is going to be redirected so it's going to be a little bit better than it is now but yes there's only room for more improvement that's for sure okay I want to talk a little okay I go ahead Aaron sorry say would you consider put some underdrain in along that area I think we already have that between the between the parking and the property line I think I think it's pretty tight between the duplex and the properties there and there's a lot of fencing so if we go down if we scroll down a little bit there I would say it looks like it tight into there you're proposed yeah I think we wouldn't want to be any close to the property line kind of the existing yeah what would be difficult is to the right of the duplex if we are to bring some pipe things to just like bring it lower than the duplex that's that's that's very tight that space there just like walking there is very tight 16 you catch the water uphill right it's not going to get down okay okay understood okay yeah yeah yeah is it safe to assume that the the erosion issues that have happened behind 14 are because of the spring that's up that's up the hill a little bit higher or would you think there's some other reason why that might be happening I'm not sure okay okay I haven't gotten the you know I haven't been able to actually see it so I can't you know it's see water flow from from Google Maps so curious next there was a concern about the stairs and and I still am trying to wrap my head around that that's an awfully long structure and in the middle of winter it was it was addressed today by tonight by Chris I think who said the potential for injury sidewalls go up there's still the potential for injury have you considered an alternative form of construction if you consider metal grate stairs and a metal grate walkway like what they have at ski resorts say to prevent ice buildup and slips and falls over that long of a run on your property I did not but that's interesting it's probably you know more cost-effective than the solution I had which was to completely cover the stairs so I think that's a that's an interesting approach yeah I think covering might still be the way to go but at least with the walking surface if you cover it you're still gonna have drifting snow you're still gonna have water freezing on concrete landing pads and wooden stairs yeah I was thinking about entirely covering the staircases but I think that your idea is some is an idea that I like you would still the one thing I want to say with this is I still need to shovel well as if it's covered then there's no need for that but I like the idea of those those grippy stairs that they have in ski resorts I like it a lot I didn't think about that no yeah the snow just goes right through it the ice goes through it so snow goes through and it's also grippy for the for the surface of the of the boots of course in the summer flip-flops if somebody's going fast I can see a problem with that to their design for the winter but I mean you can certainly use them in the summer but just a thought I had and it was it was a concern the other question I had about the stairs if you do a roof of assuming it's going to be a pitched roof yeah it doesn't have to be because there's already a pitch with the stairs it could be a flat roof but because of the pitch of the stairs it's going to go okay but but yes it would be I was thinking about the roof with sides and I think it's all about like how strongly and how well designed it is I can see that you know it is steep and if it's not anchored right or designed well I can see why you know the stairs would would not last so I my it's my intention to you know have a good strong design so I can do it once I prefer to you know pay a little bit more and do it once but I didn't do a deep dive into the stairs yet I didn't know that I would have that many questions so I don't have a final design on this but certainly I want to say that I'm aware that it's steep I'm aware that there is potential for danger I know that it snows in Vermont and all those things are in the back of my mind and I'm hoping to come up with a design that that checks most boxes I know that cost is one of them but but I would safety ahead of cost and I'd like to do it once if possible okay one more I think what hopefully one more question about the stairs we're you planning on lighting them under the roof and having having lights running and have you considered the impact that might be that might have on on your neighbors at night I did not thank you I all good points and good questions and I I did not think of that okay so Matt I'll just I'll just add it I suspect that some of the design for the stairs and just the the construction methods and materials would need to be reviewed by by the building building code officials to ensure the client as well okay okay just a quick question about the stairs just popped into my head I think this is for you say there they were metal stairs if there wasn't a roof for sidewalls to those still count as law coverage if they're basically free draining and I don't you can answer me offline it doesn't really pertain I think they it's still may but I can look into that okay I was just curious about that great point that the snow and rain would go through them so just curious thank you and you would be open to them to an agreement on on road management's a more formal legal 100% absolutely you know I haven't chipped in a dollar since I've been there it's not because I'm cheap I you know nobody's asked as soon as they ask I have my checkbook I have it with me okay thank you does anybody else have any other questions I think that's what I have I have a question I was wondering if you were aware of mr. Parisi's cottage and why that doesn't show up on the plans that is because the survey was done prior to his construction but if you would like that added to the plans we can get that added mostly just as the length of time has taken us to get to this part of the project let's find it he moved a little quicker than we did yeah I would be curious to see that just just to see where the elevation lines now now land to see if water runoff is potentially affecting this property now that Matt's cottage is built or I'm just curious to see so I would like to see that any other questions not hearing anything so sorry Matt Matt Parisi does have his hand up again if you want to recognize him online okay Matt you can go ahead and unmute yourself hi thanks I'll try to be quick I think Eric probably has a copy of the final design for my site plans I don't know if it's readily available I was trying to find it I can't find it I didn't have to change the grade at all when I built by where my property was just because I I was lucky and I had kind of one flat spot just to answer that and and to clear up some confusion but I think Elaine and I and Martin could deal with this later on I don't actually have a retaining wall on the what do you call it I guess it would technically be the western border of the of the property line right now his western border there there's no there's no retaining wall there it's just my cottage sits there and both of our properties currently drain down into the driveway right now so okay great well thank you for thank you very much anything else that our applicants or the applicants team would like to share before we close this hearing nothing nothing all right I thank you so much we will talk more in deliberative session probably tonight quarter after eight now so I think we have time I thank you very much and I will entertain a motion to close this hearing so motion second and it's been motioned and seconded all those in favor of closing this hearing please say I or raise your hand and again I can't see unanimous yeah it was unanimous okay thank you about that writing down the time so I look at beautiful camera movement but I can't see what I need to see all right so next on our agenda let me pull up the again just bear with me sorry real quick before before the applicants leave I forgot to do this I do have exhibit list that I will be providing to them which includes exhibits a through l which will be entered into the record for this matter thank you so much and I will be there to initial them next week um or whatever we need to do that next up on our agenda is city updates so we will turn it over to Eric uh thank you so I don't have any specific updates for you all I'm happy to answer any questions that you might have on any any issues related but I don't have anything specific tonight I noticed on the mid minutes from January there was an update on the hotel oh uh at uh at 17 amnaki way yes so there is a the hotel project is moving forward the garage is uh they are the garage is looking for an update to um to the act 250 permit and they are doing some work down there to get the the site prepped for that they're doing some sheet piling and some pile caps and soil remediation so that is moving forward in anticipation they have a permit for that right now but they're they're waiting to get the act 250 permit uh amended to move forward with the with the rest of the garage and then come in after that for the hotel to go on top of it along with some I believe right now the plan is for some residential units as well I'm sorry that's the one right beneath CCB that's correct yep yep so no update on the other hotel oh no sorry sorry sorry no okay there is no update on that the one that you mean you're referring to the one that we had the variance request for on on lot nine yes there is no updates on that as far as I know that's still in court working it's working its way through okay how about the church uh similarly no updates I believe there's been several status conferences uh with the owner and the um a pellet or pelly I forget which one it is but I believe there's another one scheduled I think for next Monday so I think they're trying to reach some agreement on what could happen there among themselves to to to decide what's happening and and move on so nothing new to report their item and I did see I've been away for about a week and a half and I know that there's a meeting coming up on the main street construction has that happened yet or is that coming last night was it okay it was last night okay I missed I'm subtle on a lot but I we don't need to discuss it now because clearly it's out there so and really and that was mostly to just talk about kind of process and um answer any questions about kind of what the conditions are going to be like for business closures or if there's going to be compensation or what traffic patterns might look like um kind of staging and timing I believe that meeting was recorded so there probably will be a recording of it at some point posted at the website okay I will get my update there I didn't realize I was still sharing my screen I'll stop doing that so we can see okay all right that if that's it for city updates we will move on to other business so the only thing I have for other business is tomorrow is the deadline for a possible April meeting I have not talked with anybody about a any issues that they would have if we do get anything submitted we might need well we will need to reschedule that because I will not be in town so that's currently scheduled for April 18th but like I said I haven't had any applications come in or had any discussions with anyone so I'm not anticipating um anything being submitted tomorrow so if if not we will uh cancel that meeting okay unless I don't mean for some reason but I won't be here so you all can sit on your own if need be all right uh and the last item on our agenda is uh to adjourn so uh if anybody would like to make a motion to adjourn that would be great so moved and all of the all those in favor of adjourning please say aye or raise your hand aye and I saw this one so it was you now thank you um so I guess the question is are folks okay going into deliberative session at this point yeah okay