 Thanks for staying with us. The disturbing issue of sexual abuse within religious communities, particularly involving pastors and female members, is slowly eating deep into the fabric of our society. Sexual deviants within religious contexts can be sensitive and challenging, however, striking a balance between upholding religious values and addressing the complexities of human sexuality requires a thoughtful and compassionate approach. So tonight we're asking, how can we address sexual deviants in religion? Please let's hear what you have to say. Remember you can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 0818 038 4663. So Mary, have you seen the documentary? Yeah, I was actually third of the series this evening. What were your thoughts? What were your feelings? Okay, so I might not be emotional as everybody is, but I found it very intriguing. I could see how consuming power is, and I could tell that he had a vision. Absolutely. Yeah, he had a serious vision and more struck out for me the most. Okay, it's such a positive thing, but yeah, believe. He believed that he could. Yeah, because if you look at this guy, he's a local man. So there's no finesse of him trying to impress people. He just knew what the people wanted, and he had a vision for himself. So I'm telling you, like, soak up. It was brilliant. You know what I'm saying? The involvement of the white people, he wasn't really on a local level. Because in the beginning, he said, why is small crowd now? Soon, why is it going to be a large crowd? I'm just saying. Wow. Yeah, wow, wow, wow. When you read porn artists in books, we see white people. You know, it's a bit like, oh, nice. Well, this is like... The scale and the scope of it was grand. The thought process behind it, I mean, like you said, let's be honest, it was genius, right? Yes. Whichever position you take, he harnessed certain things. He studied the sort of huge American teleministries. Yes. He knew the power of media. He knew the power of visuals. He knew the power of storytelling. And so before social media was social media, he knew the power of storytelling. Yes. And he understood distribution. He understood how he was going to get his message out there. He understood the investment that it took because early on, for him to actually be paying for the white people to fly in, just so he could get validation. And it went far because I'm seeing Korea. I'm seeing Israel. I'm seeing all these countries, right, that are represented. And I remember the first time I heard about TB Joshua, right? It struck me because that format, it was TD Jakes. And I was like, is this person trying to copy TD Jakes? And they said, oh, no, this is TB Joshua. And I'm like, who is TB Joshua? This is in Nigerian big church, everything. I'm like, I didn't know anything about it. But they said, no, there are plenty of white people there. If you see, did it, did it, did it. And it moved me to white people. You know, I never sort of paid attention to it. I literally had goosebumps when I was watching. In fact, it wasn't the first, because the first I heard of it, of course, as with everything else, you see people on social media. So somebody posted and I started to see the comments. And usually I don't pay attention to these things. But then the power and the effusiveness behind those comments, I was like, okay, let me check this out. And of course, you know, started to watch the videos. And halfway through the first one, I literally have to tell myself that you have to keep going. Because the genius of it, of seeing somebody think through this thing, bring it to life, you know, when you see, I think the first bit that got to me was when they showed a clip of people playing with, so not people playing, people carrying concrete, church members, white and black, carrying concrete. They literally had, what they call that, is it pom-pom on their head. And I was like, and the thought process through it of what essentially is like a systematic, I mean, let's call it what it is based on what we saw, brainwashing with the isolation, with the, I mean, there's no more powerful latch than faith. And the bit that I think hurt me the most was these were people who were really looking for God. Yeah. They were not just like, these were people who were genuinely looking for God. I have a problem, I understand that there is a God, I believe in this God, and I am looking for God to solve my problem. Do you know how hard it is to even get people to believe in God? Then to now take the ones that believe in God and just completely destroy it, that was the most painful part for me. But then when you look through, his church is just one church. I mean, we've talked so many times on the show about the proliferation of religion in Nigeria. What's that phrase? Religion is the opioid of the masses. Like, we understand it. It is, we understand it. You know, people are coming to these churches because they need healing. They need all sorts of things. And we can see that it's not just black people. It's not just black people. But do you see how they strategically built on that system? I mean, I think the entire first episode didn't really talk much about the sexual part of it. The second one. But then the second one sort of really delves into it. And the sad part for me was when it kicked in. And it sort of ran around. Yeah, that's true. I used to hear this story. People used to sort of, it had been mentioned in different places at different times. And I think one of the core characters that they mentioned, I'd seen a video of her maybe like four years ago or something like that. And it brought it back to the fore. But you know, there's nothing more powerful than the story. You know, a story you can follow. Characters that have been developed, then you see what they were going through. And you know, this is not just recreations. She was so big on media and on visuals. There was video to see it. Then we got to one part in the video where they had brought a lady to the church to obviously be prayed for because she had been raped. And he said, forget about the rape. She's a temptress. Yeah, I remember that part. So he would, you know, coin the story. Even when the guest house collapsed, he sent money to the people, to the families of the bereaved and was saying that she should be happy that she died for you or something. And I was like, wow. It was intense to watch. And I will admit that, I mean, there's lots of things wrong with it. But if we even sort of move away, if we sort of try and circle back to, you know, our question today about the church and the sexual issues, it's not unique to synagogue. It's not. It's not unique to the late TB Joshua because there's so many, I mean, the Catholic Church has had its own issues. I mean, almost every denomination has had its issues, whether it be with boys, whether it be with girls. And I asked myself, what is the real trigger? Is this just human? Is this just deviance? Like, is it because why is it so fixated? Is it focused on the church? Some people will say, oh, it's a spiritual attack. Some people will say, oh, it is proximity and what's the word now? It's denial and proximity when you sort of take the religions and doctrines that don't allow the men of God per se to have wives or whatever. Somebody will say, oh, it is opportunity and denial. That's that one. Then in this case, you take people that have power because unfortunately, with particularly the Pentecostal movement, as we saw again in this video, those pastors take on a God-like essence. People follow them with complete devotion, complete, you know, there was a song they were singing in there that was about him. And I was like, we've moved this thing now from praising God to praising the man. But even that is not unique to him. I remember the first time I encountered a protocol team of a church, not even in Nigeria, abroad. And it made me to this day have a problem with protocol team because it seemed all of a sudden like, I'm like, if you're a pastor in a church, the very nature of a pastor, of what pastoral care is, is to care for people. Then you are not accessible. You are almost like gates. So if I can't access you as my pastor, what am I in your church? So that aspect of the power that then comes to play, the worship that comes to play, the fact that people seem to lose all reason around the things that you do. This one, from the video, you can see that the tactics were clear. Isolate, give them the narrative, keep feeding it and feeding it and feeding it. Then you start to convince a virgin that she's lost thing. You keep feeding it and feeding it and thinking to myself, what exactly, I mean, his case was classic. But then I was thinking back to, it was a few years ago now when, what's her name? Timidakola's wife, Boussala. When she came out again. Also, against the very popular pastor. And similar things happened because one of the things that actually I think really triggered me. In fact, I went to get my nails done today and as I walked into the salon, they were having this discussion. As I heard it, I said, please, I beg you, just you would change the topic. And I just put my headphones on because I just didn't want to be triggered any more than I already had been. Because in the midst of what seems to be glaring evidence, people say, but he's not alive to defend himself. What has him been alive got to do with anything? This is clear. Even if we're not even trying to be spiritual or anything, this is a cult. No, but that's what it is. I mean, it's not for any good purpose. I can't see how you're uplifting people. You're tearing them down to control. They can't sleep. They have to call you to say good night. Please, where on where? What was your body dream that this is okay? Like you said, he had a plan. You need the person to be alive to defend that. He has a plan and he stopped to it. But I mean, if we even take... I mean, we've all seen, I'm sure, so many movies have been made about these cults. And when you were just talking about having to call him and all of that, it brings back a very old one that happened in the 80s in America, which was the seizure at Waco in Texas. Which was another man also claiming that he was Jesus. And that all the children, all the female children in the compound were his wives. And he was sleeping with the mothers and sleeping with the children. So this issue, to be fair, is not a new one. This one was just on a very calculated, very extreme, very high ground. Because, you know, when the guest house collapsed, I didn't even know that. You know, they kept calling to guest house and I had heard that, oh, a lot of white people lived there. I didn't know it was a paying business that it was actually in truth, it was a... they built it for people to come and people to pay. So the strategy of come and stay for free had paid off. Now when you come, you pay five-star premium rates and then for a building that was clearly not fit for the purpose and not built in the right way. So this context now of there are people that, even till today, I guess in this world, when they say there's somebody for everybody, there really is somebody for everybody because till this day people, if you go on social media right now tons of people are still supporting him are still saying one, he's not alive and he's not true. Even with all the... I mean, there were rumors before, now you have evidence, it's not just Nigerians, it's not just South Africans, it's not just the Brits. Like everybody is represented, right in this video to tell their story. If he was alive, like I asked what would he have said? He's going to stand on... I mean, this one... He has gone this far. Do you think he's going to come out and confess anything? So these rumors have been there I mean, I think he passed in 2021. The video I saw of the the main Nigerian lady, Bisola I had seen a video of her in like 2019. I'm like, beyond actually all the stuff they put out about her being a terrible person and all of that. What do you say to defend yourself? Nothing. Nothing. So if he's alive today I'm very interested and perhaps maybe when our callers call him, I'm very interested to hear what it is that their thoughts are around. Is there something that he could actually say today if he were alive to defend himself? Is there something the church could say to defend themselves? But more importantly I think we now need to ask the question how do we deal with this? Because this is not unique to synagogue. This is as we can see the other high profile case. That one you never made any headway. They're all from top leaders. Yes. So if it's still happening and it keeps happening how do we deal with it? Because it's now a problem. It's a very real problem when we know the problem what kind of solutions do we put in place? The way like I said that we've elevated men of God. Do we now need to start convincing people to look? The word of God the Bible read it. Is it the same lack of education that is triggering this and impacting this? But then it's happening all over the world in different countries. So how can we really stop it? I hope that when our callers call in they can give us some of their thoughts around how we can manage the situation. But I think we can take a short break now and when we come back we'll open our phone lines and we really love to hear what you have to say. If you've just tuned in it's our Ladies Night Out and we are discussing how to address sexual deviance in religion. Please let's hear it. Remember you can join the conversation. Send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 0818-038-4663 our phone lines are now open. You can call us on 07002-570-7749 We really would love to hear what you have to say on this topic. In fact it is it's so intriguing it's actually so intriguing I mean my colleague was like oh she had a goosebumps I'm like I tell people I'm not seeing what I'm seeing but I'm just like for me I don't know why I take some positivity out of it like it gives me a danger to say that if this man can't believe in himself he's on his own I'm just like if this man, if you can't believe in yourself, why couldn't you use it for something positive? Imagine what's going to come out just actually imagine but I mean it shows so many things and one of the other things that really apart from even the gullibility think about our people think about let's leave the masses he got to the crime and the crop of society he got to presidents he got to prime ministers he got the order of Nigeria the title so how is it possible okay I think we have our first call good evening thank you for calling good evening please let's have your name and where you're calling from my name is Pasta Ladipo good evening Pasta Ladipo thank you let's hear what you have to say please okay what I have to say is discover something that is a level in man we are think especially in religious circles if the man is not careful people begin to worship him and once that worship starts it will be difficult for such a man not to abuse that privilege absolutely one of the things that happened in this man's case was that even when he was a liar there were a lot of oppositions like this why is that always such a thing coming up me and my boss trying to play the devil's advocate but that is daughter is it that a lot of people didn't know that this man had a daughter somewhere that he didn't talk about all through why the man was alive that now she is coming out anyway when you come up with a story like this for a dead man the man is not there to defend himself so I like that you have said that he is not there to defend himself right but if he was going to defend himself in your opinion what would he say to you that would counter everything that you saw in those videos I mean even the daughter that you mentioned she looks like him yes thank you you see okay you know what you know what the man would not defend himself that is just the truth even when he was alive when great allegations were laid against him he didn't go down to defend himself I get him he would still defend himself that is just the truth only God would say when he comes to religious leaders and these people are catching too much honor that is due for God and they get away with a lot of nasty things that would bless you thank you for calling I like what he has said there that is a very key thing and when we are talking about how to address these issues I think that is one very important thing for both the congregation and the pastors themselves to look at because power can be very intoxicating so when you find that your church has started to grow to a certain size when you find that your congregation is starting to address you in a certain way in a God-like format you have to really now start to ask yourself what do I need to do to take the spotlight away from me it's almost like some praise and worship ministers you hear them when they are getting into the spirit they are almost sort of saying this is not coming from me this is coming from the spirit of God so for those pastors that are coming up that are starting to gain that sort of popularity and that status if I hear what Pastor Ladikwa is saying there is a responsibility to continue to return the spotlight to God and away from yourself because let's be honest power does amazing things to people we see it with our leaders any small power you are going to go crazy that is what I am wondering who is going to call them to order let's say they just can't see that they have gone past that because we are not talking about subordinates now we are talking about the apex in each of these religious hierarchies so who is going to hold them accountable? so perhaps within the church leadership structure there has to be somebody or people that can call them to order but let me take this comment quickly I want to ask you how we can defend such a terrible lifestyle all in the name of religious affiliation the fact that they didn't see it as a warning to beware of false prophets that would litter the earth in these times I have just been wondering what manner of humans we are since the videos were released I feel bad for the damaged persons and pray for their healing true healing from God there are so many ways in which you can really start to shoot for hopefully because there is no indication that this will never happen again because we are still saying we are still giving indications that we won't believe that we don't believe that this is glaring in the face of all of this people are still saying if he was alive he can't defend himself I have heard all sorts you can't even imagine because for me there is a larger issue at play here we already know that we have issues around rape culture we already have issues around gender we have a culture of silence we have a culture where we are still in the part of the world where the victims get the blame now in the face of all this evidence in the face of women who are clearly traumatized then to see that people are still saying if he was alive like literally why would anybody watching this video speak up if they went through it doesn't even have to be at the hand of the pastor any kind of sexual molestation why would they speak up this takes us back because if I see this I see women who have been bold enough to come out and say this is what has happened and I am seeing people's reactions on social media I have just been like well let's be quiet because who wants to really haven't gone through this be victimized in a different way again so there are so many implications around this story and where it has gone I mean I can understand it here we are talking about sexual issues but at one point in time the touch not my anointed was like a sing song everybody is like this is the man of God and I always with that phrase man of God I always say please which one comes first she is man man of God meaning he was a man first before he became of God and every human being is fallible it doesn't even have to be in a sexual nature and again this is where like pastors said you have built the person up to that point where he is now God then you forget that he is a human being they can't be but a man of God is first and foremost a man they struggle with the spiritual attacks they themselves are moving targets then if you then add the self belief now that these status they have tied to you you are now truly in by bits as he did because calling to say good night was that to check maybe to trigger a good right pick tonight or do you know what the occultity I like the place in the video where the lady said who joins a cult but that's what all these cults that's how they start because you come in thinking you are going to get something else then you are brainwashed into believing whatever the ideology is and he did the classic thing isolate you from your family isolate you from everybody that can tell you come pure isolation and then you keep feeding and you know if you sort of see the way the videos were structured in video one and video two I kept asking myself so I mean I believe in miracles let's be clear I'm a Christian I absolutely believe that miracles happen but I kept asking myself because you know the videos were the stories were told in parts and they never sort of talked about those miracles because those things looked crazy the types of medical conditions they were calling the types of miracles that were happening it will catch anybody even if it's just for you to say you know what me I want to use my eyes to see how they then you don't know that you are walking into a den where they are now going to peel your layers away and just you know take advantage but the truth of it was the thought process behind even in identifying the victims of a certain age like the guy the guys who were looking after him that was another scary part the five story boys like literally they didn't understand the coating of his beard putting it in the mountain so I'm even trying to stay away from all of that occultic because that whole prayer mountain but is there any biological thing that that makes well no it wasn't meant to be a biological musician of course that's purely occultic but I mean as that man on that side I mean you could obviously tell that the storytellers also didn't understand the significance of maybe occultic things they sort of told it at a very high level you know if it was Nollywood style they would have dug into it and you know but it really was it was scary it was shocking it was unbelievable I've even left that part of the conversation because anybody that says he should call and he should come and defend himself I was hoping that more callers would call in and tell us exactly what their thoughts were because I mean we've seen it somebody that I want to say that anybody who is rational that has seen that video knows that there was just too many things wrong but I mean again back to how do we deal with this because it's not a synagogue it's not a unique problem to synagogue the responsibility on pastors the responsibility on church but then the responsibility I think there are a few pastors that I've seen who consistently refer people when they're preaching the word to the bible everybody you have a bible it's in every language or almost every language don't you all even have consciousness to right and wrong well you know consciousness is based on different factors common sense all of those things you know it's they're all they're all in there right but something so this people were brainwashed but something in them is still fighting back you know something in you is still fighting back to if the guy you know inviting his room for the first time you know he's doing all of that there's you don't need bible no but you know by the time they got to that point they were they were fully brainwashed at that point they had sleep deprivation they remember when she even sort of talked about how they looked more nourished and then they started to wear makeup and dress better so clearly the approach was nefariously flawless because you did not you made sure they were sleep deprived you cut them off from everybody that could have shown them love and triggered them and ask them the right questions at that point they were more like robots because you walk into a room somebody you think you don't think about how you revere a god and then that god tells you do something ah you know you mean hope to hope to that's what happens I mean even in the military it happens well you know so you know I try not to say ah never never could happen because again those the strategy they they used it has it it is tried and tested so to say I just pray that I never find myself in any such situation because that method is proven and it works so you caught people who had a vulnerability who were looking for god you put them in a situation where you were then the only thing that they saw the only thing they had to refer to you put them together so they were collective so it became more than the power of one like you know even when you want to have unique thoughts and then you see all these other people around you all saying daddy daddy daddy you too would be like well you know human beings also we conform so it is I mean when you when you watch it I literally want to say that it is god that gave the people that broke out it's god that gave them the strength and the option to break out because if you look at even the lady who had the video after she left where she came back and tried to confront him she was so distressed shouting at the gate you know he had text and I'm like this is someone who is clearly traumatized this is somebody who is coming to the donning of the realization that this thing has happened to me I don't even want I mean the part about his daughter that one was just too distressing like literally telling people they can slap her they can beat her all of those things you know so there was a deep level to it that if you think about it is deeply unsettling but like we said it is it's not a new problem we have to start to figure out how to empower people we need you to make sure that you are you are learning the word you are finding because it's very difficult to say find somebody because at this point anybody if a person like this could get to this point everybody can be so in that sense you have to find someone who can really teach you the Bible encourage you to get into not even just the Bible your books of faith get into it so that you can learn for yourself when it doesn't smell right when it doesn't sound right you find a way and you run I remember seeing a comment somewhere on social media where a lady said the first time she came to church with her mom she was I think she said she was 17 and somebody came and asked if she was a virgin and she was like what has been a virgin got to do with coming to church and she ran off and that now when she's seeing this that in understanding what she potentially escaped that is just it's a lot and you know sometimes you just think and this man everybody say no we know this story is not a new thing but people were still crying we are his widows, we are this, we are that why? I'm not surprised because he was also philanthropic and the people are hungry he's giving rice he's giving money he's got the powerful story of miracles I mean it's too much I literally had to force myself to say you know what I need to watch this video all the way through to the three videos all the way to the end but the most painful thing for me was how somebody took advantage of people's faith and it is still happening and that is the bit that as a religion we have to stand up against the genuine pastors out there the genuine Christians out there please talk to people about your faith tell people the right thing tell people to understand that there is no way that it is okay because it happens even all these places of deliverance where they people they say they take people torture for witchcraft, for mental illnesses there's nothing there flogging out of you you know if you can't emulate anything emulate Jesus the gospels are there people can read about it people can see what it could not speak to like literally it is right there in languages but it goes beyond that now where I say everybody that has a genuine belief in God and loves God and loves their religion has a responsibility to make sure that they are actually this is not now when you say oh yes go out and preach the gospel they don't even say you want to preach the gospel but make sure that people truly understand what the gospel is so that when you see these things because I remember there's another particular church that also has this sort of type of followership dedication I just heard somebody shouting what was he saying now I think somebody asking his name and I'm like where does he keep saying I'm chosen someone has explained to me all these churches there's all sorts of doctrines that you see out there and when you encounter it please, please, please we have to start to educate people because you have to shine in light you have to shine in light where there is darkness for there to be clarity so if we're going to start to work against these things I know that a lot of the churches for example the catholic church has put a lot of work into trying to distance itself from this image and all of that but there has to be clear work organizations like Kahn really now need to start taking a clear eye to monitoring pastors as they get bigger to understand are they abusing this power are they taking advantage of people because we have some mega mega size churches in this country we really do so we have a responsibility to make sure that the thing that is dearest to us the faith the gospel the message of Jesus the sacrifice that he has made is not torn apart and you know taken away from people who are genuinely seeking him who are genuinely seeking miracles because miracles do happen but it is just sad that in this day and age it has happened and it is still happening and there is no indication that it won't happen again so I mean it has really been it has been a very tough day for me you know having to have these conversations and you know watch the videos it really is heartbreaking and even for the people who say I think there was another conversation we were having around or if they had followed through they could have been prosecutions why did they wait until it was there to bring it out again I refer to the collapsed building case this is almost how many years later I think that happened in 2019 also this is almost five years later and there has been no no what's the word now, prosecutions right even though the corona came out to say this was what it was all of these things have been said but as with our country there's been no apparent consequences for someone of that kind yeah there's been no apparent consequences so there is just so so much that we need to do or we need to think about in terms of protecting people is there anything you want to add before we wrap up just as your final thoughts on this issue and how we move forward as a thing I still believe that as human beings we've given a discerning spirit and let's try as much as possible to listen to that inner still voice I mean sometimes it's hard because there are a lot of manipulation techniques and you know all of that out there but that nudging spirit if your spirit nudges you to say I don't think you should do this today the earlier and the better we begin to listen to that spirit sometimes it happens in the most mundane ways I know it wouldn't be something that is really big to say you're right and wrong but then there's always that nudge in you when you're rude to someone you have that, that's not me so we should learn to listen to that inner voice it would really really help us help with this, I think you have a comment as well I say good evening my dear beautiful sisters of what he's saying how to address sexual sexual deviance in religion it is very simple the pastors that are involved should be exposed the bodies of the so-called women are holy and should be respected not all pastors are born again sister Altie happy new year to you I missed you a lot my name is Daniel, you're always regular fan thank you, thank you so much Daniel I think your comment is very apt the bodies are the temple of God and they are absolutely holy the pastors have a responsibility it's been a fantastic conversation albeit it's quite triggering it would be a miss to say that we hope that wherever this is happening that people know that they can find help they can speak out reach out to family members to close friends and really give yourself the opportunity to be heard and hopefully to get some solution or respect for the situation that you find yourself in the resources are bound for sexual molestation and those kinds of issues so please do find the opportunity and the strength to reach out to get support before we go do ensure that you follow us on Instagram at We Show Africa you can interact with us further, drop a comment and most importantly follow all our social media engagements like, share, comment and invite your friends and family don't watch us alone share the conversation to watch us and follow us so if you missed today's quote here it is again of all possible sexual perversions religion is the only one to have ever been scientifically systematized and that's from Louis Aragon we look forward to seeing you again tomorrow at 8pm as we bring another great conversation to your screen have a good evening