 This conference will now be recorded So I would like to call to order the self-brownington City Council meeting of February 20th, 2024 Well, I welcome you all and the first item is the Pledge of Allegiance Under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all Item two instructions and exiting the building in case of an emergency and a review of technology options So thank you for those joining us in the room if there's an emergency in the room You can go at the rear of the auditorium out the left or right side and then turn left or right to get outside For those participating remotely. Thank you for joining us as well If you'd like to speak during any item on the agenda turn your camera on and the chair will call on you You can also indicate you would like to check you would like to make a comment in the chat box and I will track that Otherwise we are not monitoring the chat for content Thank you Item three is agenda review Additions deletions or changes in order of agenda items. Yes, I'd like to add an item I Have a beef with two certain ladies on the council that have decided not to seek re-election And I'd like to discuss that after the consent agenda The city's prepared two wonderful resolutions honoring your service Already I would like to make a Recommendation that in the consent agenda, we take up item F the letter of support to the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board and Do with that directly after the consent agenda and then we can do yours. So mine will be six a the item F and six B Will be whatever you have planned Are there any other changes Yes Ryan Doyle speaking Tomorrow at the State House, they're going to be taking up discussion on a statewide rental registry and I think from the Housing affordability committee meeting in January. I think Noah said that they're still considering a Regular rental Do you want to say three marks for then actually my question was like given that the state is actively working on these things Would it make sense to table this until we have some clarity about what they're trying to do with those and if they pass them this session? That's That's my take well actively working on this for over five years. So I would like us to keep that Yeah, you can bring it up when we discuss it. I guess Okay, are there any other changes? All in favor of the two Editions signify by saying aye. Aye. So we'll move on to comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda Yes, Michael Short and sweet because it's a repeat, but it's probably the last time you'll hear this from me as you're currently constituted This is a follow-up on the Wheeler conservation easement I Haven't heard anything recently in several weeks And I wonder where we are on that and the second item is the Hubbard Park easement and What's transpired between the city and the Lake Champlain Land Trust? Which Signified that they were very interested and would love to be the easement holder so those are my two questions and I wanted to whether I could get an update because I Don't want to keep coming back Month after month. We can definitely give you an update on one. Do you want to check and give an update on both? So Friday afternoon, we received the survey on for the Wheeler natural area conservation area From the surveyor as we you know, we've been working They've been working on this for many many months and it was sent off to the Land Trust first thing this morning So that was the final piece the Land Trust needed To start their part of the paperwork. So that has been delivered today Hubbard Park I reached out to the Lake Champlain Land Trust probably now Three weeks ago and have not heard back from them yet. So I will poke them again Sure, I would love that. Thank you Michael two folks might push them ahead Okay, can we just say Michael nice haircut nice haircut it is it's all combed and neat Yeah, okay. Are there any other items? Oh Karen It's Karen. All right, I'm Miss Karen Sita. I am chosen. I am anointed. I am gifted I was a long-term resident of the town of South Burlington Like the first black woman to be a legislator for the state of Vermont also came from South Burlington I am one of the many black women that will come out of Browns South Burlington and do great things To keep my public comments. Sure I do want to say that the town of South Burlington for many years have been very very wicked And I don't have time for all the wickedness. Just Baker Jesse Baker. She knows the wickedness She might even be part of that But anyways, I do want to say that whatever is done in the dark always comes to light And if you look around this year 2024 is a year of revealing So I just want to make sure that when the city council gets many reports of what they have done behind the Scenes when nobody's watching when they think nobody's gonna watch or when they think that like Johnny Cash my favorite song sooner or later God does cut you down They must be prepared for that because for many times They think they're getting away with it, but they get away with nothing anything that's done in the dark always comes to light And you know, I just want to make sure that you know, I came from the city of South Burlington I know the wickedness And I just wanted to make that very clear because they think somehow that they'll get away with it But they never get away with nothing everything that's done in the dark comes to light So city council or whoever you're gonna be hopefully Lydia diamond. We're gonna vote for Lydia diamond get a black woman in there But for all the city councilors be prepared because what's gonna come to you is something you've never seen before in your life So and I knew it was pretty but it was this pretty. Oh my god, even with no makeup. Anyways, that's all I have to say You ready? Are you ready Jesse? I know you are toodles Thank you Are there any other items? Yes, Mike. Thank you amending the agenda a little bit But the matter that I wanted to ask a question about Is on the consent agenda F. So did you tweak that? Is that still on? I took it off the consent agenda so you can speak as soon as we adopted Oh, so as soon as okay, so you took it off now It's a new agenda item. It's a new agenda item. We amended the agenda. Okay. All right added two items All right, so it is still there. It is still there Thanks, you're welcome Any other comments from the public? Okay moving on to Counselors announcements and reports on committee assignments and the city manager's report Larry you want to start tonight? Thank you, I had a chance to attend two committee meetings the park the Reckon Parks Committee And during that time they did express concern and interest in the Hubbard Park easement Discussion and they want to be kept informed of that I'm just looking at these notes here Great, so that was I think that was a highlight of that meeting for me and natural resources committee met and I want to give Just publicly thank Dave Wheeler for being such a good staff person to that committee because he really He goes out of is beyond his job description as the Stormwater person, but we've learned a lot about stormwater in that committee for sure. It's great and He did say that one highlight of that meeting. He did say that the ash tree replacement Anything grows just we had that discussion that He announced that a reward and that said that the ash tree injection plan Is going out to bid so there are ash trees to be to be preserved hopefully through an injection process And he mentioned that the March meeting should include the joint meeting with Reckon Parks to just start start discussing the open space the joint meeting of open space and master planning that goes along with with space Spaces Public spaces Thank you. Thank you Megan Nothing to report on committees. Okay. Thank you Tim Thank you So a few things I attended the candidate forum last Thursday night And Andy was able to provide me with a link for the recording which I put in front porch forums to all the for us saying You know, please go watch this if you want to learn about the candidates I just want to give some credit to The DPW for their improvement of all the dorset lights signals from Kennedy Drive all the way down to so far that I can tell at least Market Street it flows much faster now There's less wait time when there are no cars and lanes waiting to turn so I really appreciate it I think other drivers do. Thank you very much. That's part of that long-term project It's been it was stalled up because of the pandemic right and but it's Yeah, yeah, so I think that, you know, for like there was a 30-day You know warranty period where they kept it on the old system Then they switched it to the new using the sensors and so those are in effect now. So that's really great. I Notice that a bunch of signs appeared on median strips and on the roadways today just came out of nowhere You know advertising for candidates. So it's that time of the year. I attended an economic development meeting last week there was discussion about the the the gallium nitride tech hub and the funding for that and It just happens to be that today, you know, yesterday was the day that the US government announced that the chips program was going to make available to global foundries a large sum of money For the Baltus site and also for the Burlington site So there was a company-wide broadcast today that I watched and Gina Ramondo was there Chuck Schumer was there Kathy Huckle was there our CEO was there And there were a couple of other there was a congressman. I didn't get his last name. So that was a huge announcement for the support of Semiconductor manufacturing upstate New York and also in the Champaign Valley, right? So this whole area is connected now To make these these high-tech wafers. In fact one point Schumer held up He held up a wafer 12-inch wafer, you know, that was had been completed But it wasn't you know, and he goes I remember when Saratoga only had a potato chip factory He held up this bag of potato chips. He's going to take a chips semiconductor chips. He went back and forth. It was pretty funny So anyway, but this tech hub that would be in in this area is really important because it would give access to design services In one building to you know any startups that wanted to try and and and and create ships Using gallium nitride and then global foundries Burlington would you know, or the s-extruction plant would be the place to Pilot that that work. So this is really interesting. Wade It's a good synergy for the companies offer the design services and all the technical and plus you take into account then also the UVM has now a New lab that was you know opened by With the discovery so not to push my employer, but these are all good economic developments for the region So and they're all high-tech, you know, so this is good That's all I have great. Thank you. Congratulations. I'm glad. Yeah, Andrew. I Attended to committee meetings bike pad and the energy committee at the energy committee a large piece of discussion focused on EV charging standards for new buildings the transportation climate action Implementation group had recommended Perhaps strengthening those standards right now. The requirement is I think For most buildings Multifamily 25% be what's called ev capable, which means you run some conduit Questions whether you should also run the wire. That's called ev ready I think that makes sense. I think the energy committee thinks it makes sense. So Energy committee recommended to the planning commission to take that up And explore strengthening those standards at the bike head meeting the most of discussion focused around Dorset Street in front of the two schools and the safety and pedestrian improvements that Hoyle Tanner was recommending including Potentially an island pedestrian island Consolidating some of the crosswalks and striping some lighting That those recommendations will be reviewed by the joint city school task force next week But I think they were very well received very thoughtful and responded to a lot of community comments Tom Tom will provide news about what Implementing those improvements mean with respect to the paving schedule, and I won't steal his thunder on that What they might need Finally, I did attend the joint city school Bike pad safety Task force where we talked about Dorset Street, and we also began a discussion with specter crossing guards and Reviewed materials around the country in terms of best practices and policies with the goal of making a recommendation Joint recommendation as to where we should be locating crossing guards in the city for the schools Okay, I also attended the candidates night and The common area for dogs meeting and just to update some of you who've been at Dog parks and what we do with dogs for a long time The six bent six benches have been ordered, and I think they've been received, but they won't be installed till Spring They also are going to have the tree stumps in the the dog park Chunked out, you know in the spring get a stump, whatever they call it Grinder grind them out They have installed some dog bag stations and several more have been Ordered and water Plate of jugs that you attach to the fence have been ordered and received The What do you call those squares where you can put your phone against them and oh the charger No, not the chargers the QR codes We did have a discussion on those and I think The QR code will probably it sounds like it should only be actually Installed at Wheeler Park, so you can put it behind glass and people can't take it down because We were told that it's really easy if you just sort of put it on a Fence post or something on a piece of paper someone can Make one that looks Really similar and replace it and then if you put your phone up and say oh, I want to give money to the dog park Committee it could go to somebody else So just thinking about where we use those and how you use them They need to be under lock and key so they can't be changed and I had no idea that that happened But I guess you have to be young to know that I also attended an airport commission meeting We received the audit and it was totally clean just like our city So that's always nice to know we did not get a really big grant to continue with the planning for the North Terminal doesn't mean it's dead. It's just they ran out of money So it's still on the list or will be applied for and Then I did attend the planning commission meeting which was really Really interesting because they were talking about all the changes that potentially Need to be considered for for our LDRs to be aligned with Some of the housing legislation that the legislators passed last year So that was kind of interesting to have that run through and they'll be Busy working on that Not it didn't seem like it was a huge number of changes, but I want to make sure that it's really done systematically and carefully and and then they'll add some more stuff this year, but that can always be a reoccurring nightmare for the Planning Commission That's all I attended Thank you. So a couple updates for the council and the community One just a reminder time meeting day is quickly coming up on our City web page. We have a town meeting day dedicated site where you can find budget information presentation information from tummy TV You can find the Canada forum link all in one place So if you have questions about what will be on your ballot on time meeting day, please check that out Just a reminder tomorrow or next Monday night the 26th from four to six We will be at Dukes to celebrate our two retiring counselors The all-clear conservation closing took place on January 29th, it's all completed and wrapped up Circle back that that was completed Our staff is working which in a county regional planning In anticipation of the Vermont Department of Housing and Community Development setting statewide 2030 and 2050 housing targets This is part of Act 47 So we are participating in those conversations. So as those allocations are made statewide, we have been at the table from the beginning Dorset Street want to steal the thunder of Tom, I guess So a couple of things one signal project is wrapping up and will be substantially complete in March Paving of Dorset Street. So right now the phase four of the paving project from Aspen to Kennedy Was originally scheduled to be repaved this year To accommodate some of the change school safety changes we want to make as part of that project It is likely that we will need to delay that to summer 2025 To integrate that engineering into the plants So that's still under discussion part of what Councillor Chaunek talked about at the safe routes to school task force and the bike ped task force But with adding in those elements The bid environment will be much better to repave it in the summer of 2025 Having said that there are things that we anticipate being able to do to improve school safety this year in advance of that paving Effort so as soil tanners recommendations come forward. We will bring those to the council to establish the school zone and move that effort forward But one to like get out start talking about that paving project being in 2025 Um, I would really encourage folks to check out the programming being offered through the recreation and parks department And through the libraries. There is a lot going on in the next couple of months from a community connectivity standpoint I'm not going to list them all today. I do want to Thank those who came out to our valentine's day dance. We had 150 attendees on February 10th, which was lovely um, I also want to thank dent delta dental for sponsoring recreation and parks to do a Free family event every month for the rest of the calendar year, which is really lovely And then also thank the university mall who is giving us free access to indoor space As we don't have an indoor recreation center now They are partnering with us to give us indoor space for free For some targeted programming throughout the spring So be on the lookout for that as well and well done to our recreation parks director adamath for some real creative thinking there Thank you Okay, moving on to item six the consent agenda We have five items still left on there Consider and sign the disbursements approval of minutes from january 8th 2024 received the december and january financials Received the first and second quarter financial report and lastly approved documents related to Loan rf1-354-2.0 For the Bartlett bay wastewater treatment plant upgrade I'll move that way approve the consent agenda second Is there any discussion? I just have a question about the financials with jesse and I um Would that be appropriate now jesse that back and forth that we had a little bit on that Yeah, just I just and I don't know if um Martha can answer to just in the financials as a note And it talks you're talking about the audit. Yeah. Oh, no, that's that's during the agenda. That's fine. Okay. Okay. We can do that later Yeah, no, these were just the final oh that's item 12. Never mind okay Okay, so are you ready? I'll entertain the motion to approve. I have that in a second. I'm sorry So you're ready for the vote all in favor signify by saying aye. Hi. Hi Okay, so we will take up um What was item f the letter in support of the self-growington land trust application for conservation funding? Uh through the vermont housing and conservation board in support of the long property And before we I know there are some people who have Both written us several times and complained about this I want to um clarify and dispel Some of the what I consider misinformation in the public about this I um And it's troubling for I think particularly for probably megan and myself for the last month to all of a sudden get the Salvos that this council does things behind closed doors That were not transparent um that somehow Things are done and approved um Not in broad daylight and I want to Say very sincerely I've spent 30 years in public life and being transparent and clear And not lying about anything or covering anything up has been the hallmark of What I think was a long and well considered career So to Have people suggest That somehow in a um when we were discussing an executive session a um Conversation about potentially the purchase of property That um We somehow were working in the dark And not sharing that with the public The long property has been on our agenda For probably a year and a half This council when it was In interim zoning and there were Plans for development We pushed back On I think it was seven or eight houses Six at the top of the ridge And at that point, um The developer said I can't make it work and walked away Then the um property was bought And my understanding is that At the closing the longs were very very happy They were glad it was going to be conserved And they appreciated they got what they wanted Out of the property And they were happy I've heard comments that You know, they're really annoyed because it didn't get developed I think the people who are annoyed perhaps are the developers Um, but that was a private transaction I think when we um After we had executive session or before When we did talk with the bellavances about Their property Um, we may I made it very clear we were not making a decision that evening And there would be no decision made during executive um session During that meeting what we did suggest Is what we heard from the public that evening and that is You really should look for Other funding for this project And that's exactly what they did They withdrew their proposal to us And then had um approached thanks to Jesse who connected them and was at the meeting with the um Vermont housing and conservation board To discuss what are some potentials for them And for the board They fund project like projects like this I was told that um, the board members who came or the staff who came um Work static because it was exactly the kind of project that they like to consider So to then Get some letters that suggest that this shouldn't Happen and go forward And that we shouldn't for some reason Sign um a letter of support For conservation That we have done Numerous times Is um Startling to me it doesn't make sense Some of the accusations and the Considerations of what might have happened in this application were just guesses And to put that in a letter as if well this probably could happen Well, I don't think you put that in a letter and suggest That there's some malfeasance If you don't know the facts So i'm telling you tonight The facts are and i've read the application It has nothing to do right now with housing although they're asked about affordable housing And they have janet has and in the application Has has said point blank Housing is a second phase. This is a two phase project We're going to The vermont housing and conservation board for money for the Property we have no other money promises From this council from our open space fund We've never Agreed to that It definitely if if there is any opportunity for that it will be in the future It will be the next council Who gets to decide that There's nothing behind closed doors In fact janet has said when we go to The housing option They want to make it a hundred percent affordable Which is a hell of a lot better Than working with a developer Who's only required to make 10% affordable So if you're interested in affordable housing, I think potentially this could be a wonderful project But this letter of support Is only to support their application To the vermont housing and conservation board In support of 32.2. I think acres for perpetual Conservation that's something that this council I think has Talked about in general that easements and Taking open space and perpetually preserving that Is the only way you really can preserve it For our future and for our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren To enjoy So that's what I wanted to say about this topic I don't think that can be any more clear. Do you have anything to add? Okay, is there any public comment? I'd like to thank you for Setting that out so clearly And I'm surprised that people have said you're doing things behind closed doors This was all published in me in the other paper. You can't be more transparent than that So I think I'm surprised to hear that you've you've received criticism Obviously whoever sent you the letters didn't have the facts Correct and I for one Would very much like to see you Send this letter of support And there's one typo in it In the first paragraph on the third line It's something that I do quite often because I'm dyslexic It's conversation instead of conservation That's all I have to say but thank you You're welcome Are there any other comments? Sandy Oh In the south brollington land trust application because I have no idea what's in the application And that is the heart of the problem is that the first That I knew that there was going to be an application And that the city was going to submit a letter of support was when the agenda for this meeting was announced last friday and I think so The lack of information about The city's role the lack of the fact that It was announced as housing and conservation The letter of support says nothing about housing Have no idea what the application says um There's just so much unknown About What What the proposal is and what the role of the city is so I I still think that Submitting a letter of support for something The community Other than you folks and The sellers had and south brollington land trust No one else has an understanding of what Is proposed Is just simply doesn't comply with transparency and I'm fine with me to disagree Respectfully on that, but I know there are others who are very troubled by the lack of transparency in this process Thank you Well, I think if you want to read the application you can call the Housing trust fund and ask them for an application. They typically are not shared and well, that's understandable But I think if you want to know what this city has Committed itself to you can read our minutes and you will see nothing in the minutes And the only thing that we might commit ourselves to is this letter of support and that will be in the minutes And that is how it has always been on the council ever since I began in 2008 So I I am concerned that there have been That there has been misinformation and I I will use that term as well and Well, I think in your letter you fantasized about what could be In this proposal I know and sandy to do that, you know, to me that's kind of like what trump is doing You it's an innuendo. It's uh, oh this could happen. Maybe I don't really know what I'm talking about But what if and I'm telling you our letter of support is For conservation of the 32.2 acres And that's all it is and that is Consistent with what we've done an innumerable Letters of support for different nonprofit organizations So You know, it's a private Family was Working with I think a highly reputable Um organization Who would never Enter into a contract or an awarding or agreeing with any with any organization If they felt that there was um, it didn't Adhere to the community's um Rules and regulations on land use And and that's what your first letter said so, um I think it just got worse from there, but we can we can Disagree, I I find this um An important thing for the council to support And there is no way that this commits us To anything in the future Until the council has a conversation and agrees that yes, let's spend Open space money or Which always happens in open session Always those votes always happen in open session And I want that to be clear to the public It has been very insulting to read these letters to the editor and to read the letters that we have received in our inbox Which are open and public documents and to have others Say, oh what sandy says Yes Andrew Thank you. Helen and Megan. We're going to miss your leadership. I'll miss your leadership Sandy with all due respect your letter said Submitting the letter support appears to be a backdoor strategy For the council to decide to make this purchase and bind a future council to carry out the decision It's just not true It's it's it's it's and honestly, it's a bit of a smear That's that's what you wrote in your letter There's nothing that supports that it's not true. It's not the way this council operates and I think I think it's a really unfortunate thing to accuse us of honestly Are there other comments Mike? Okay, um same subject and uh I actually Know a lot more about what it is you're doing Tonight that I've known Through the entirety of this process Uh Maybe I didn't read an article that said you were concentrating on conserving 32 acres Was there an article that said you were concentrating on conserving 32 acres or conserving the long property We were talking about the long property and the part of it that has real value I Value to whom I mean there's there's value to Folks are pretty clear Excuse me You know excuse me. I I know that Uh It's hard to listen to people who have different opinions And this is a collective statement. We all have that challenge at times and so it can be a challenge to sit and Wait and listen for somebody to share what they've got to share And to not be critical of them and question their motives So Getting back to my question Uh Was there an article that talked about there being 32 acres that the city was concentrating their energy on conserving or has the communications that's been out there In the public simply been referring to the long property Have I not if I missed something If I have I apologize because I haven't seen any reference to 32 acres And and Mike if you can bring that to my attention. I'm happy to say I guess I overlooked that I got no problem with that Okay so but I Tonight hearing 32 acres. That's the first I heard that uh so Ordinarily If you looking at at a letter I'm generally familiar with The process I don't want to sound like I know it all again, but I'm generally familiar with the process When applications are submitted to the housing conservation board And although You know, there's a little bit of leeway there. The assumption is ordinarily That site control either exists Or that it is imminent Because they have a lot of they receive a lot of applications. They don't want to waste their time like our city council You like to have a complete application so, um If you knowing that Seeing where there is a letter of support That our municipality is providing To an entity Uh, the south burlington land trust who's submitting an application. It's not unreasonable for somebody to assume Hey You know have these negotiations that have been occurring or these conversations In executive session have they been consummated? Is there a deal? It's not I appreciate you saying no, but it's not unreasonable to think that there's been a meeting of the minds That's been reached and then you come out of executive session You put on the agenda. There's going to be an action item and and here community Here's a deal Here's the terms Here are terms and conditions You know that You can take a look at and discuss And so in any event it's not unreasonable to think it is for a former counselor and a former council chair to think that Yes, it is She knows how city government works. She knows that any kind of deal would have been made an open session It would have been voted on If you look at this information And you recognize what happens when the housing conservation board You know when there's an application submitted There's ordinarily an expectation that site control exists or that it's imminent Okay, that's not unreasonable For me To assume so we come in here and we have a question And we want to know what's going on And you've introduced a bunch of information that I hadn't heard before again the 32 acres and other stuff So, you know, I'm a I I'm I apologize for taking up your time Okay, but this property there are a lot of people in the community have a who have a different point of view About this entire process and how it should be handled And how this property might eventually be used in the future I do feel that putting the conservation agenda In front of and separate from the housing agenda allows for the housing agenda to be subordinated And to to be dealt with off afterwards it would feel better to me, you know A lot of times when somebody brings in an application for a property you say well We want to know what's going on with the whole property and not just a piece of it, you know So show us what's going on. What are your plans, mr developer? Okay, so Here we're dealing with a book Well, you've been going on for a while. I just went up to you for a second I just want to say you you you got right to the point where you said the item that's on the agenda It doesn't say that we have reached an agreement and we're going to sign a contract I'm not saying that either, but it's not unreasonable to think that you said you've been waiting for agenda item to try to To to to find some resolution of what's been coming out of the executive sessions What's on the agenda item says Approve a letter of support to the vhcb for this property need any at owns this property We don't own the property. You don't own the property sandy doesn't own the property You have no control over what's going to happen to that property period All right, the application's being submitted by the land trust and the city is supporting the land trust Can I can I stop for a second? I want to remind both the council and the community that this is a city council meeting in public Of discussion among themselves about action that they are going to take before they take action They always welcome feedback and comment from the community. This is not a time for debate or name calling or Uncivility we have a lot on our agenda tonight a lot that's going to require thoughtful public comment Let's have the council hear from the community not engage in debate and then the council can make its decision Also, we have others who are waiting to speak who would like to speak. So yeah, so I will wrap up I came here without Uh wanting to rant. I don't think I've ranted yet. I came in here and I think you made your point Okay, so Right, you know, it's not unreasonable for people To have some questions Well, I'm glad some are getting answered. Um, jenna bill events Thank you I'm a board member of the south burlington land trust And regarding tonight's request from the south burlington land trust for a letter of support I want to clarify that the landowner Northeast agricultural trust is not asking the city for any funds Nor has the city made any commitment or signed any agreement with me The south burlington land trust a local nonprofit is applying for a conservation grant The south burlington land trust Is not asking the city for any funds at this point Nor has the city made any commitment or signed any agreement with the south burlington land trust We are solely asking for a municipal letter of support from the council for our application to the vermont housing conservation board We hope you can support a local nonprofit organization whose mission is to preserve open space For the prosperity of our community as we attempt to partner with like-minded statewide organization from on housing conservation board The housing portion phase two of the long view project will be completed once the conservation piece is done Again, northeast agricultural trust is not asking the city for any funds Nor has the city made any commitment or signed any agreement with me regarding housing on this land Thank you for the opportunity to stop any disinformation from spreading Wild accusations and speculations will prevent good work from being done I trust the council will support the dual goals of this project Thank you. Thank you Are there any other comments? Were there any more online? Any in the audience? Okay So We have a letter Um before us to i'm sorry So we have a letter before us to um in support of the south burlington land trust application For the conservation funding through the vermont housing and conservation board in support of the long property Would entertain a motion to approve i move to approve second so any further discussion All those in favor signify by saying i i the motion carries unanimously Thank you. We'll move on Oh, i'm sorry. Yeah Six feet, okay. Yeah, I forgot we have six feet I will personally have a lot more to say next week at your celebration for now I will just say as evidenced by tonight and every night That I have the pleasure of serving with both of you on this council Um, the city will greatly greatly miss your service your leadership your wisdom your integrity um, and um, it's just it's just been an absolute pleasure The city has prepared Two resolutions to honor Each of you shall we read them tim? Would you like to read one and i'll read one? Sure. Which one do you like to read first? Please no you choose I'll i'll read megan and will you read helen sure, okay whereas Megan emory will step down Following her 14 years of service to the south burlington city council on march 5 2024 and Whereas Megan was appointed to the south burlington charterview committee in 2007 and Whereas Megan helped to reform the city's charter to include neighborhood civic forums and Whereas Megan was elected to the city council in 2008 Was appointed the vice chair in 2011 and served until 2012 And whereas Megan was re-elected to the city council in 2014 and again served a vice chair And whereas Megan was south burlington's representative on channel 17's board of trustees between 2008 and 15 and served as its treasurer and president And whereas Megan was a strong advocate for the new police station The conservation of a duke farm now brand butter farm and the development of city censor city center and Whereas Megan was and is a fierce advocate for noise exposure program to help residents of chamberland neighborhood affected By their proximity to the burlington international airport and was instrumental in the final negotiations that settled the airport appraisal disagreement and Whereas Megan's service was guided by her strong belief in smart growth Combined with natural resource protection economic development and diversity in housing to serve the needs of all households Therefore be it resolved that we the city council do hereby honor Megan emory for her years of dedicated service And offer our sincere thanks and appreciation and recognition of our leadership To be part of a government that is open transparent and accountable Thank you and new where as is This is a city council resolution honoring helen really for her years of service Whereas helen really will complete her fourth and final term on the south brilliant burlington city council on march 5th 2024 and whereas helen has served the people of vermont in state and local government for 41 years and whereas helen served in the vermont house of representatives from 1983 to 1992 And whereas helen served in the vermont state senate from 1993 to 2000 And again from 2016 to 2017 representing the chitin district And whereas helen has served the people of south burlington as a city councilor for the past 12 years And whereas helen was first elected to the south burlington city council in 2012 And served as the city council vice chair until 2016 And whereas helen was appointed city council chair in march 2016 and served until march 2024 And whereas helen champion the development of city center including the construction of the library and city hall And whereas helen was instrumental in creating the tip district and the affordable housing trust fund And whereas helen guided the city council in adopting policies and regulations that balance protection of the environment With necessary growth therefore Be it resolved that we the city council do hereby honor helen really in recognition of her Four decades of dedicated service and offer sincere thanks and appreciation for giving the city of south burlington the benefit of her time wisdom and good humor That's a real business Thank you We've to approve them Thank you, that's really that's really really touched. Thank you very much So do I hear a motion to approve the two resolutions just so moved second Is there any All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye No, and okay, was it unanimous? This wasn't middle school where you don't vote for yourself Okay Moving on to item seven, which is um a warning I want to welcome everyone here tonight who's here for that The rental registry hearing. This is our second reading in public hearing The ordinance has been before us many times As many as a long property, but almost um And we've had the opportunity to consider public comments Engage in our own discussions and make revisions to the draft um of the ordinance drafts Plural of the ordinance. We held the first public hearing um at our meeting on january 16th 2024 tonight's hearing and the first public Hearing were noticed in accordance with the city's charter The purpose tonight is to hear from you. We won't be responding to individual comments during the hearing Except perhaps to ask a clarifying question to make sure we understand a commenter's point of view We will take all that we've heard tonight during the hearing together with any correspondence We have received and have a council discussion and possible vote after the hearing has been closed Procedurally we'll take comments from folks who are in In person in the room and then we'll go remotely Um, if you want to speak here, please go up to the mic and make sure the little green Dot is bright green Um, our city manager will keep a running tab of those wishing to um speak From the remote, uh, please let her know in the chat Um, and lastly, I'd like to ask everyone to please keep your comments brief and succinct And I'll ask you to try not to repeat Comments made by others you can certainly say I agree with the person who spoke two times before Before me, um And if there's any time remaining at the end, um If there's anyone who wants to speak a second time, I will entertain a second comment If it's new information So with that, I'll ask for a motion to open the ordinance by title and enter our public hearing So Who would like to do that? So I'll move that we open a Public hearing on the second reading on a proposed residential rental registry ordinance a second All in favor hi hi can I make one suggestion amended to that motion that we Um, you move to read the ordinance by title. Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Yes We'll just so, uh, I'll amend that motion so that we read it by title. Thank you second I forgot to say that. Sorry. Thank you Okay, so are there any, um people in the audience wishing to make a comment Please come forward Make sure you state your name and that the green light is bright green and my name is christy moore Um, I guess I had a question. Can I ask if I don't think it is on it should be like green. It's green. Is it Oh, okay. Now it is speak well, maybe speak a little closer to the mic. Okay. Um Christy moore I just wanted to get clarification because I read through everything. Can I ask a question and then kind of go from there? Um So I am an owner occupied short-term rental person and I was just curious To get clarification on the inspections And what is required with regard to that when your owner occupied because I couldn't really tell from when I was reading through it Okay And you answered that specifically Well, I'm going to be vague to be honest. So owner occupied would require inspection It would you basically going to have to have smoke detection co detection egress windows egress path Those are the big things that would be required Okay, so where can I get a list of all that? um When can I expect to have this inspection? Do we initiate or we contacted who pays for the inspection? And then I guess just to go on from there since we are required to have the inspection Um, how come owner occupied short-term regular? Short-term rentals have stricter guidelines than having a roommate because I noticed in there that you if you have a roommate You don't have to have an inspection which is essentially the same thing Someone's living in your home Where you're living as well. I know burlington does not require owner occupied to have this inspection And that was a big thing that they went through for a long time Um, so my space is only occupied 70 to 80 days a year Not 365 days a year like a roommate situation is Um, I have insurance that protects me through my homeowner's policy as well as through the service I use So I have double protection there Um, and when I you have a roommate you're not required to have any of that where I am required to have both of those things Every time someone is in my home as a guest. I am there as well So I feel if it's safe for me then it should be safe for those guests as well Um, a person with a roommate doesn't have to have the protections that they aren't always in the home A roommate resides there 365 days Um, a year where I have that shorter amount of time Um, it seems like they'd be more liable yet. They don't need to have that inspection So why should I need to have an inspection? Um, I've made my home safe for me to live in as well as any guests paying or not paying and it would appear that I am less of a risk for this situation and um, I don't want to have to get a roommate, but I can't afford to live in my home I don't make a lot of money being a short-term rental person Um, this past year I made a little over 11 000 dollars And I've already accounted 8 000 of that to go into upgrades for my house for electrical things So it's all going back into my house. I'm not getting rich off of this situation But it enables me to be able to live in there and if I go through the inspection There are chances that there are things that I may not pass Um, I do have an older home Which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have the short-term rental because it is an interesting place I walked in there and thought that this would be a great place to Have a short-term rental Give people a place to stay when they come to south burlington And also be able to get the money from that to make the improvements on the home that are needed But if I have to go through the inspection and it's just not even going to be worth it Because I don't know that I can afford to make all the upgrades. I do have some of those things, but not everything So that was just My comments and my concerns about that Thank you Are there other comments in the audience? It's like Oh, yes Sandy duly. Um, I just wanted to say that The recommendation to have rental registry was included in the report the path to affordability which the affordable housing It was an ad hoc committee Issued in 2013 So it is a real joy to see That you've reached this point and the process has been fabulous We've really been able to see what What the initial proposal was here the feedback see how it changed And I just want to encourage you to adopt it And uh, it will be wonderful. I think a real achievement And a credit to all of you if that happens Thank you Any other comments online? Oh Okay, what we have ryan and then Ryan Doyle speaking In reading through this compared to the last change Uh, the last version rather Uh, the changes I found that the fees were moved outside of the ordinance and there was a different schedule set up for short-term rental Inspections It removed the birthday information requirement the notarization requirement and changed the two day response time to attend a response time Where there are other changes made Um between this version and the last version I believe that acrylic captures the changes. Excuse me. Yeah. Thank you um Was this reviewed by The vermont tenants association or the vermont landlord association okay, we're really Here to hear from you and not have a debate These are questions So this is a public hearing this is for the council to hear from the community about your opinions And then they will have a conversation amongst themselves after the public hearing well, then I'll assume that Organizations that deal with the concerns of landlords and tenants have not been consulted on this Um, I think that they should Um, I'm not aware of any particular outreach on this to tenants. There wasn't any that I saw um It's unclear to me how this ordinance overlaps with the two bills that are in the state house right now regarding short-term rentals and long-term rentals Um I notice when The taxes come out Or when the new budget comes out, there's always this comparison about how it affects Uh, the average household But not how it affects the average two bedroom apartment or three bedroom apartment in my case This the fees associated with this are equivalent to an eight point something percent tax increase to my landlord which will be passed on to me as a renter Um And I don't believe that there's been any effort by the city to try to work with other municipalities on this to save costs Or contract with another municipality to save costs the way that municipalities do cooperate on things like water or police services or things of that nature A rental unit has several definitions Um including dwelling room Which leaves me unclear as to know if somebody rents out Two rooms in their house on a short-term rental If that requires two fees or not that is unclear to me Is staff able to answer a question about that? We'll hear all the questions and then we'll respond Um, so it also still has the double fee where because I rent A fee goes to my landlord and because I use a short-term rental website I pay a fee additionally Uh in burlington system that does not occur um 3b doesn't require any information to be shared with renters, but a later section does require A short-term Rental host to share information with their guests I wonder why my lease agreement is an illegally valid document that I can submit in my application And why I have to get a second affidavit signed by my landlord In paragraph or in section 3c 1c 2 3 Or 2i 3 Um It says other requirements as established by the city building inspector In terms of validating that you live there And I wonder if That could be more specific For example You know, we have certain things that we could use to declare that we are a resident in order to like register to vote Um, and I think that state has a more comprehensive list there Um 3c 1d requires a 1 million dollar insurance policy if you don't have one through your short-term rental site And I wonder if that's simply a copy of air b&b's Number or if there's some data reason why that's the case I do believe that there is an organization that will help you determine a reasonable insurance value locally um And that might make sense based on the size and value of the property It maybe should be different Um In 5f it says that short-term rentals have to provide soap in linens um There are Short-term rentals that are very bare bones and tell you to bring your own linens They're meant to be affordable for folks who Cannot simply afford to travel to nice places and in nice amenities Um, and so I wonder if that's a requirement we have for hotels or if The assumption is that hotels will provide that so they aren't required um In 5h it talks about certain materials that A short-term rental host has to share with their guests And I wonder if the city city will actually make and provide those materials for them um as a convenient handout In 6e it says renting any um, but I think The word out is missing renting out any would kind of make more sense if a business is renting It assumes that they are the renter just the way that sentence reads um When we think about the things that In 3b things that aren't shared with renters, right? There's a whole lot more you could do to provide value to renters in this This provides an inspection It gives you the city information, but it isn't giving the renter any more information There aren't there's nothing saying that you have to tell the renter where emergency shutoffs are Or where emergency egresses are or where the fire extinguisher is There's actually quite a lot of things we could make it a long list that are helpful for renters So like information about the health officer, for example, how to contact city services or register to vote here um Everything else in 5g of this document which applies only to short-term rentals and not to long-term rentals Things like appliance manuals It can be take a really long time to figure out what the error code is on your water heater Or your dehumidifier in your apartment at 3am Those things are complicated and They're not like cars where they advertise the models. Well So having that information on hand to look up those things at inconvenient times would be really valuable to renters Information about garbage recycling and compost Providing that information to renters would help them comply with recycling and compost much more easily Especially if they're moving from outside of vermont where both of those are much less common It's actually a state law that landlords need to Provide compost now But there's a lot of leases that are old and not updated and so a lot of landlords are unaware of that Educating them about that would be very helpful um Other kinds of increased protections like for example against very high rate increases Or even ending the full winter street parking ban As most places with rental units commonly Don't have full winter parking bans Burlington has the flashing lights st. Albans has just when it snows over an inch at night Things like that Burlington offers tenants more things And also charges less for their inspections so Burlington has a city property database. This is information from vermont tenant association under the cvoeo I spoke with them So Burlington city property database allows renters or anybody to search a public database That gives information about you know, how many dings the landlord has had for example That can be really valuable in deciding if you're going to apply to a place or not Or if you want to negotiate a different price Um, it makes things a lot more transparent for tenants Burlington also has a housing border for view And let's say you don't get your safety deposit back This is a first step you can go to very easily without going to court There's also a tenant guidebook Um, it's pretty long but on page 64 to 66. There's a move-in checklist And burlington city ordinance requires landlords to do this um with the tenant and uh The person I spoke to at um vermont tenants adds that they would love to see this To be a law statewide um So you can see from my perspective as a renter This really what you have in front of you doesn't do much for me But add a lot of cost and burlington who Runs the same program for 60 of the cost Per renter Provides a whole lot more and I really think You guys should pass that more in tandem With an ordinance like this Instead of me hoping that the next council Will be more responsive to the needs of our growing tenant population And provide us with more value Uh, especially considering that we pay additional taxes as non-home owners You know, we pay the non homestead rate. So for me That's $550 more in taxes I pay every year because I don't own the property I live in and that's besides the The other things that affect uh Older smaller homes paying more per square foot than a lot of newer homes Or they are assessed at a higher rate per square foot than a lot of newer homes, which is shocking um And so I would like to see a lot more protection for tenants, especially as our city grows Thank you. Thank you Julie marks She's online Welcome Good evening council. Can you hear me? Okay? Yes Great, thank you for the record. My name is Julie marks. I'm in the executive director of the Vermont short-term mental alliance Which we call vista. Uh, we are an association for Vermont's vacation rental community And I am here today on behalf of our members many of whom have an interest in The south brilington rental market These are homeowners who have chosen to share their homes with visitors and professional property managers who have built thriving local businesses here in vermont my personal experience Managing vacation rentals began in 2018 I'm also a burlington landlord or housing provider Since around the same time period And since I founded vista in 2021 I have been professionally studying vacation rentals from local and national perspectives And I serve on the government affairs committee of the national vacation rental management association And have done so since 2022 I have seen a lot of short-term rental ordinances But I have to tell you That I find the rental ordinance before you here going far beyond what we would consider reasonable regulation Uh, not only are many of the provisions laid out in this ordinance largely ambiguous Impractical and seemingly unjust in many ways, but they are also unnecessarily onerous arbitrary and capricious I've noticed several components of this ordinance that would put the city at high risk of legal challenges and lawsuits Should this ordinance pass and be enforced Given this late stage in your process here I hope that it's no surprise to the council that federal courts in multiple districts across the us have ruled That prohibiting non-owner occupied homes from short-term renting Unconstitutionally violates federal interstate commerce law and discriminates against different types of property owners It's my understanding that when local laws discriminate against non-residents in the context of real estate rights and commerce Cities become vulnerable to constitutional attacks that you would need to be you as the city would Be forced to prove to a court that you have no other available option So your vote If you make one tonight would confirm that you are 100 confident that there is no other way to maintain The purpose statement of this ordinance, which is to protect the public health safety and welfare of the city and its residents That the only option you have is to cause this financial harm At this time to these property owners and their families in order to protect the welfare of the city And that you also have no other option than to rob future property owners of their freedoms and opportunities Restricting short-term rentals in the name of public welfare or in the name of creating more affordable housing Just fundamentally misunderstands the facts and misunderstands the activity of short-term renting itself This ordinance if passed will discourage people from wanting to provide any type of housing in south burlington It will take away good paying jobs that local residents rely on And it will likely cost the city tens of thousands in legal in legal expenses that your taxpayers will pay for This is not your only option you have a chance to reverse course And take the public comment into consideration. I urge you to vote no Vote no on the motion. Do not pass this ordinance without further review of its consequences. Thank you. Thank you Next is Dana Harrington Good evening. Um, thanks for giving me a chance to wait here. Um, one of the things about south burlington is that we hold a special position in vermont I have long-term rentals and provide housing For people in south burlington and I do think that a long-term Uh rental registration makes sense. Um, I am weighing in today on the short-term rental Uh scenario that's been laid out Uh south burlington is friendly to family friendly to residents, but also has been super. Um Amiable to business and growth. Um, and so now we have this, uh in front of us to a Actually stems the ability for Short-term rental landlords and area entrepreneurs many who are south burlington residents Doing short-term rentals out of their homes. It stems their ability to Make that type of earning Um, so I wondered if we could think about First of all, I do agree that we should be like, uh paying attention to how we align with legislation coming out of the state That just makes common sense Um, but I'm wondering if there is a way we could do something instead of sun setting To run a fair and effective registry. We could maybe perhaps put a limit I don't know. I'm sure there's a best practices model that we could look at I feel like $1,500 Is high seems arbitrary and capricious So I'd love to know where that figure came from and the four-year limit for grandfathering makes no sense to me at all As a property owner in south burlington Curious about why Landlords are being hit with such regulation when south burlington has been so Uh business friendly. Thank you. I I would ask you to table this for now and maybe take in more Information on best practices to go forward with the short-term rental part. Thanks. Thank you Is there anyone else This is michael sorok. Can I know if you can can you hear me? We can hear you We just can't see you Can't see me Camera Michael it looks like your camera is on but maybe you have a piece of paper or something over your camera It's all just showing up as black where there's a shutter in front of your camera No, there's nothing in front of my camera and I don't see the light on So And I'm hitting the camera button. So I don't know screen I don't know this first time I've used this program, but why don't I proceed without The video we all know what you look like so We recognize your voice and we recognize your voice I'm chuckling. So that's what I look like now So thank you. My name is michael sorok in and I live at 80 Bartlett Bay Road And my family has successfully run a short-term rental Right next door to my Bartlett Bay residents for almost a decade We have run it very successfully and when I say successfully I don't mean financially successfully All things considered we just about break even I also say successfully as we have never had a complaint in almost a decade However, when I purchased the house next door, I was living alone Recently widowed and my children had left for lives In more urban environments I had and continued to have no family in vermont I was grandchildren on the horizon I purchased the house next door with the hope that My family could easily visit at once all at once or in different combinations And it has worked out fantastically I now have four grandchildren under the age of six and I love coming to vermont Now if it wasn't for the short-term rental income, I could never have made the numbers work I also say successfully as I said before in almost a decade We have no complaints from any neighbors and we get along with all our neighbors very well The thought of having this taken away from me in four years is disheartening Especially when we have followed the rules and do not think we are really part of the problem We believe there are and we believe there are flexible alternatives that can stay true to the ordinance's purpose and intent When dealing with property rights, I feel we need from a legal perspective and otherwise To be very careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater Again, especially when alternatives exist As many of you know, I was one of your state senators and I chaired the senate housing and economic Development committee until my retirement 13 months ago We actually addressed all the three issues you raised in this proposed ordinance One concept of a registry Two inspections and three short-term rentals And I can say that on all three while I'm very proud of my committee's work to get a handle on vermont's rental situation Oh short-term and long-term this ordinance improves Markedly on our statewide efforts Again, the only concern I have is that taking away of property rights when other less absolute approaches might be equally effective So I have three suggestions that I hope might remedy the four-year sunset on non-owner occupied short-term rentals The light the lightest suggestion is not even an adjustment to the ordinance But something we do frequently we did frequently in the legislature asking for a report back Prior to the four-year sunset coming into effect And how if at all all owner a non owner occupied units are impacting their neighborhoods And to see if the comprehensive A lot of all comprehensive new regs work work to correct the problems you see with some But definitely not all existing non occupied short-term rentals Perhaps with that information and that in hand you might choose to lift the sunset Before it goes into effect Second would be akin to a second approach would be akin to The variance procedure that I saw on my time on the drb And that would let non occupying Homeowners who are about to lose their ability to do short-term rent will be heard On extending the sunset for their individual unit if they can show a totally clean record No neighborhood concerns and they can show comparable oversight that the regs allow For owner occupied Short-term rent continue the classic example Is perhaps my situation where i'm not in the house next door But i'm right next door to the house next door And I think I can provide the important oversight that having a responsible Landlord being very close by provides Finally the third option is really just a flip of the first option and that is to Not impose a sunset at all at four years But do a study and then get all the data you need as to how the regs the substantive regs are working To improve the situation In south pollington and make a decision with all that information in hand And with a new ordinance in effect for several years as to whether you need to totally Then uh, I am a retired lawyer I would say that I do share some of the concerns that were raised by more than the other witnesses As to whether you're engaging in taking of property rights away from somebody without a clear A cut cause to do so and while you're allowing Similarly situations owner-occupied homes to continue on So I end this I I did provide more detailed rent written comments To all of you, but I wanted to keep this brief and focus on the four-year sunset at this point and suggest Some very easily drafted additions that could Emilia rate that concern. Thank you very much Thank you, Michael And we did all get your letter and I appreciate you skinning it down a bit Are there any other members of the public who would like to comment? I don't see any in the audience And I don't see anyone okay So I'm sorry. I had my hand raised. I don't know if it's too late. Oh, we didn't see the hand raised. Okay. No, it's not too late Hi, um Uh, I appreciate everything you guys doing. I do agree with the regulation and with your name for the record Sorry, Mike Cohen. Thank you Yeah, um I agree with the former Um Folks who came up and spoke about their concerns. Um, I have similar concerns I I sent an email out this morning Trying to just encourage a different thought process around You know my concerns, which is not so much that I won't be able to renovate my basement which I'm trying to do and um potentially short-term rental it That that is not a problem because I'm going to be living here and this is my home but more so to understand What are the facts and figures behind? The rental registration as you guys have put it together. I I think it's very important. Um For the sake of just clarity and transparency to understand The purpose and all the facts and figures that are going into these decisions to Push this type of regulation out to the public and to understand that the folks who did get burned by having Four hosts bad hosts who did not take care of the property who did not respect the community and obviously created a lot of feedback for you guys here, which is Unexcusable in my opinion, but just to understand that just because there were some bad activities that That doesn't mean that short-term rentals are bad or that short-term rental owners Or hosts are bad. So I just I wanted to make sure that that was clear I might never rent this out as a short-term rental. We got three little kids running around upstairs I can't imagine anyone would want to stay below that but if we ended up leaving Or traveling or doing something super exciting with them. We just want that as an option We have to sell our home because we we found a way where we can travel and show our children A different world besides vermont. We want to come back to vermont because we love it here But I can't afford to to sell my property and lose the 3 interest I have On my mortgage and expect to come back to the same community So, um, I appreciate everything you guys are doing and I just thank you for letting me talk Thank you. Are there Any other takers? All right. I would entertain a motion to close the public hearing so moved Second all in favor Sorry, I had also just raised hand here online. Um, we don't see the right. We don't see the raised hands. So I'm sorry Okay All right. Um, so hi, I'm ashley true axe. Um, I just I wanted to second the um, the thoughts from Around the concern that the ordinance You know as written kind of takes some of the rights away from me as a property owner Um, and I shared this at the first reading in january when I was present But the similar sentiments around, you know, a temporary reassignment for a job or needing to live To my grandparents just support them for a period of time But wanting to be able to return to the area And keep my home Having short term rental as an option for our property Uh, you know, we we have done it before we haven't had any complaints from neighbors. Um, and When we've had job and you know as I think Mike Cohen and in his letter described, uh you know the cost of Of living here and certainly of having a young child, right? So daycare is about 20 000 a year and those are just That managed but with short term rental Um ability on a property If you were fortunate enough to be able to get early on, um, right makes it possible to To pay for those type of things Um, and so I would like the to ask the team there the council to consider That the regulation has written does Lynn rights, um And keeps us from being able to do Do things like that to to make ends meet Okay, well, thank you About to vote So Unless there's anyone else if anyone has their hand raised we can't see it so if you're Can turn your camera on or indicate in the chat that you would like to speak Okay, seeing no little faces Come up, um All those in favor of closing the public hearing signify by saying I I said the public hearing is closed So my thanks to everyone and as I said at the start we'll now conduct our own discussion of the ordinance and consider a possible Vote to approve it So what are Anyone's thoughts I I remain in favor of this rental registry as well as the ordinance. Um, it was based on best practices We are not discriminating. Um against different zoning Or different housing types. Uh, so I do not see that The the federal court rulings would have anything to bear on on this decision where we had to pass this We are still allowing Short-term rentals and we are ensuring a level of safety And it is I think Glottable that the the state house is again Coming around to this but I do not hold out. Um, I'm not going to hold my breath. It's been many many years and this came out of A case here in south burlington The rental registry where the city really had no No basis on which to to act With regards to an absentee Landowner, um, and and it was a very very serious situation. Um, so I think that is important for the city To have the legal basis in which to protect the residents of the city I think it's also reasonable given the housing shortage that we act to protect That the the stock, um, and that there not be complete houses That are turned over to to You know year-round Vacation rental I am fully in support of the owner occupied. I I think that that is a way for For people to make ends meet and I hear that I'm sad to hear that that is how people That the only way they can afford to live here that's Clearly, um, something that we still have to work on, uh, throughout this country But I just I think it's reasonable and I I think that it's been well considered for a long time Other thoughts Andrew Thank you, Helen. So just maybe just address some of the, um folks that spoke, um First ryan, I think some of your suggestions are are great. I think what I would really Like to see happen and maybe ask you to do if you want to do it Is work with the affordable housing committee to come up with a A set of improvements that we could all consider For a second round, you know, I mean, I think the things you suggested are good, but they're not really core to I think, um for us to say let's stop this process You know, let's not get this the safety improvements on and that's not that's this rental registry while we consider your suggestions But I think they're the well worth Um consideration of a second round. So I would encourage you to do that um For um former senator, uh, michael sarotkin I I hear what you're saying And I guess what my my perspective would be that we've Talked a lot about what we do with existing short-term rentals I think we came up with a plan that balanced a lot of the comments and testimony that we heard that's reasonable I would say over the four-year window There's always would be there always will be an opportunity for a future council to to revisit That grandfathering we can gather more facts. We can get the kind of reports you spoke about and determine um during that four-year window and consultation with our city attorney what options we have what options may be reasonable And and perhaps mattify and and revise so nothing sent in stone, right? These things are still malleable and this this four years to do it. So I would encourage you to Kind of ensure that this issue was kept warm and that future councils do have um You know the opportunity and the encouragement to look again and determine whether or not there should be um a revision or modification on that score I might add that that could also happen if there happens to be legislation that requires us to do something different I mean often they say if you already have it go with it, but other times Like what we're doing having to do with housing um the housing bill with our ldr. So that's a possibility Just two more comments. So with respect to the woman who spoke Chrissy um, you know, I I personally see a difference between a roommate and a home share and um a short-term rental or a longer term rental of an excluded part of your home A separate kind of walled-off part of your home where you're not sharing You know a short-term renter is not going to have the same ability to It's not going to be invested as much in the home. Is the home safe? Right. Um, and I do think the city has an obligation to treat that as a public building And and sure that it's up to code. It's safe A roommate is is traveling around with you throughout the home And I think has that same incentive as the homeowner So I I personally see those two things as different a short-term rental just strikes me as also more more of a business It's more like a hotel a business where you you own oh, um A heightened obligation. I think to your clients And customers that that's kind of the way I see it And um, it kind of also goes to some of the other comments, you know, why If I move away for six months, can I short-term rent because it's a business and you're in a residential neighborhood And your neighbors just don't expect that to happen. And that's not what our zoning is You can long-term rent. You can rent for 30 days or more But but you can't run a business and that that's I think that's what this is all about Thank you, Jim Thank you. Um, I appreciate the feedback from everybody and we've had the same kind of similar feedback of several times Um, I'm not waiting for Montpelier. We've waited before We could be waiting another five 10 years. It might never ever happen at all. Um Burlington already has a registry. I will note that they charge 110 dollars per unit versus 150 that we're proposing here That's a small concern of mine that maybe we're starting out too high on that that per unit For the the non short-term rental non-homeowner But the point is is that Burlington does inspect their units frequency about once every five years or so Um, and they have a fairly long laundry list of things they're looking for number one is hard-wired interconnected smoke detectors that are That are that are photoelectric and also co detectors in the proper locations that meet code, right? So those are requirements and uh, then also we we have to be thinking about, you know, proper heat and and also, um the Examination of of lead paint. So we do have many homes that were built before 1978 And that is a consideration if you're having kids in the house that are That they're you know with parents that are paying you through air bnb or verbo. It's a it's a business transaction Uh, that's not really zoned for that in residential neighborhoods, especially for the non-homeowner You know single family home strs so and like Councillor Chalonic said We are putting the stake in the ground And starting from zero and there probably will be some changes to the ordinance as time goes on Because we are going to gather data. We are going to learn things and we're probably going to have to make some adjustments along the way. So My only concern is that I you know, I know that we have calculations about the cash flow for the registered registry and And how 150 per unit fits into that versus 110 I just want to voice that concern. I don't know what to do about that right now, but I'm just saying that so Thank you Okay, larry june. Thank you. Uh, so I think it's noteworthy that For the most part the public response has been On the short-term rental side of this ordinance Where in fact the long-term rental is really what we want to get going Uh, I appreciate andrew and and others saying that the next council can Take that up. I think they should and as a gesture to that i'm going to vote against this So that there is a mark that shows that there is some concern that needs to be addressed going forward Assuming that it's going to pass if it's not going to pass. I will in fact Three people and right, but I think that it's noteworthy that there's been enough discussion about this from people Some of which I don't agree with some of which I do That really needs some more work And I think I might have mentioned that my one of my first meetings Why why was it combined? And I think it was just a decision at the time And I think that uh, it's well worth having much much More in-depth review of the short-term conditions that exist because it doesn't affect I mean it for those that it affects it's it's noteworthy But in the long term in terms of the number of rental units that we're really talking about And the amount of time it's taken to hear their concerns I think it's not it doesn't balance against the need for long term Rentals to have a registry Okay, I appreciate that. Um, I plan to support this as well. I think we've heard a lot of testimony and um, I think this is Pretty balanced what we haven't heard tonight Is really I think one of the effects with having the short-term registry is Perhaps putting the kibosh on more and more houses being bought as Airbnb's And really diminishing the Um amount of typically affordable housing in I mean I use that loosely because most housing doesn't appear to be affordable to too many people but Um, it really diminishes that capacity and I think that's that's very real While I can appreciate people Wanting to know a whole lot of information about their um short-term Or their apartment rental Um Given the vacancy rate, I think when people find an apartment they They can afford it. They grab it. They don't go Make and and and go down a big checklist. Maybe they should But given the housing crisis, I don't think that really happens To the extent so it should so I think by having the requirements with the registry particularly long-term, but um, well To the best of our ability be guaranteeing that when you rent an apartment or a house That it's safe. There's not going to be wiring problems or You know egress problems or um any number of of things so I think Overall, it's it's a it's a good ordinance and I certainly agree that We tinker with ordinances all the time I mean, how long how many changes have we made to the noise ordinance? We're on it all the time. So these things are not um, it's not like a charter change So it's really hard to to enact that these are Um, I think as as andre said kind of malleable. You can another council can change them get um Information back and I suspect with the registry will have lots of information um that we can ask for You know an analysis of and answer questions to better address some of the concerns that um Are still there after the enactment Any other comments? so I would entertain um A motion to approve the residential rental registry ordinance I'll move that the south brooklynston city council approve and pass the south brooklynston residential registry ordinance second Okay, all in favor Aye Those opposed Nay So the vote is four to one it passes But we're not done with this yet because we have two more things to do um on item nine is the um Possible improvement of resolution 2024-08 establishing the fee structure and inspection cycle for the residential rental registry Steve do you want to sure I'll tee it up As you all remember the initial version of the ordinance had the fees in it and per your direction We pulled those out and put that into a resolution so that they could be changed in the future And then the the ordinance always talked about inspection cycle and that is codified in this resolution as well So that is a cycle. We've been speaking about it that if you have a clean inspection You wouldn't see us again for five years and on the kind of the toughest one we'd be there every year But that's what was significant number of violations. So that is what is the that's really the summary of that resolution I'll move to approve the resolution establishing registration fees and inspection cycles for the residential red rental registry in the city of south brooklynston Any discussion I just want to say that it's really great that we're using the resolution format to do this because then it makes it easier to Change in the future without having to go through and read the whole ordinance by title Okay, okay, if you're ready, um all in favor of this resolution signify by saying aye. Aye So any opposed no, okay And then item 10. This is the possible approval of resolution 2024-09 Which is establishing the residential rental registry special revenue fund And martha needs a Yeah, I can see it but but martha This is the technicality of basically having a special fund for the revenues that we go into as well as the expenditures And martha can correct me off. I said anything incorrect Okay Any discussion one other thing about this this fund will also capture the sort of the portion of the Rental registry fee that will be utilized to assist rent to assist property owners and retrofitting their homes to be in compliance with our Codes and ordinances Okay, and how will those be administered? Do we know yet? That's something you'll develop To establish the rules around that the rules. All right Some other Okay, can I ask a question? Yes, you may How will we be notified of cash flows in and out of this fund? Will that come with our, you know City council packets or would it be an annual thing? I'm just curious Let me charge The reporting of it. I think it's not being determined yet, but it can be reported anytime the council would like to see them Okay That's fine We go ahead Well, and similarly to all other expenditures through enterprise funds or special revenue funds that would still go through your warrant process Correct martha. That's correct. All the payment will be Coming through the warrant And then in the final audit it would be identified. Do you have all those numbers? as one of the separate funds Okay, you ready for this vote on the oh someone has to move I'll make a motion a move that we approve resolution 2024-09 establishing the residential rental registry special revenue fund In the second second And all in favor Okay Thank you all very much. Yes. Well, that was thank you for the long process Good job gentlemen But I do I do like your your suggestion that if ryan really has some issues I mean, I would think the affordable housing committee may be an excellent venue To think about or to assist in pulling together Even the materials that could be developed We'll see Okay, item 11 consider approval amendments to the collective bargaining. Oh agreement so, um If there's no discussion we can, um Just approve it, right? Yeah, we don't yeah So are we in agreement that we don't need to go into executive session? We are in agreement. Yes, great So I have a motion. I'm going to read it now. Okay. Thank you I move that the city council approve the proposed amendments to the city's collective bargaining agreement with the south burlington career firefighters association as outlined in the january 25 2024 tentative agreement and authorized the city manager to execute the collective bargaining agreement With the south burlington career firefighters association for a renewed three-year term of july 1st 2024 to june 30th 2027 Incorporating the amendments included there in a second Any discussion All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. That passes unanimously. Thank you Okay, oh, yeah, because um Is maranda here? Oh, she is. Well, why don't we just take a little quick break because So five minutes gang. Thank you All right All right, so I would like to call back Into order the south burlington city council meeting of february 20th 2024 We are on item 12 what everyone's been waiting for on the edge of their seat. I'm quite certain Um, and that being the f y 23 audit Conducted by rhr smith and we've maranda mcdonald as they're here as their Person um assigned to our um city and martha make heart. Um our finance director So take it away. Thank you when I read the Well, so before mirror talk, I just want to say that when we presented the end of the year financials in september We estimated and audited Fund balance surplus that we would have at over two million The the financials that she looked at and get the members of rsr smith Bring us to the same amount Which is great and she will go over all The numbers that she looked at and how it is presented in the 122 pages Well, that is a testament to you martha. So thank you. That's pretty exciting when those numbers match, aren't they? It's real good. Yeah. Yeah Um, and I won't be presenting 122 pages Thank you. Nope. Just extracted a few pages to touch on and then if you have any questions Um, we can go over that So the first question we usually get is what is the opinion of the audit? This can be found on page one in the letter And it says in the second paragraph in our opinion The financial statements referenced above present fairly in all material respects. So That is what used to be a clean era used to be a Unmodified opinion. Thank you. I'm sorry Um Well, you're young that was before your time. They have new language now. I get that Haha, it's true As we go through the audit, I've extracted Page five, which is the management's discussion and analysis So if you're not going to read the full 122 pages, I do suggest you at least read the management's discussion and analysis It gives a good synopsis of what happened during the year Um, financially It also gives a comparison of current year to last year It mentions debt and capital assets all within The mdna Which brings us to the next big question we get is what is your fund balance? This can be found on statement c Um page 18 In your audit The first column is your general fund And if we go down to the bottom Your fund you have a fund balance of about 5.6 million dollars Of this 5.6 319,000 is Nonspendable because it's already been spent. It's an inventory and it's in your prepaid Expenses Prepaid such as in insurance that you have to pay before july 1st, but it's really for the next year There's 1.1 million of assigned fund balance And this is city council designated and or management designated Programs that you have the list It was provided by martha in the letter, but it can also be found on page on In note 14 in the back of the audit Listing the total of the 1.1 million Which leaves a little over 4 million dollars in unassigned fund balance for your general fund This when we did the math you have a fund balance policy that your goal is to maintain Around two months worth of operating expenses And the 4 million dollars is Just under it just by a hair's breadth So I think that's a very good financial policy that y'all have in place and you're able to maintain it The other columns on this page Include your tiff fund and your capital reserve fund the fourth column the other governmental funds Is a summary of all of your special revenue capital project funds and permanent funds All your other governmental funds which are in schedules in the back of the audit So our new Rental registry fund will be in that column next year Yes, it'll be a special revenue fund in the schedule in the back of the audit Unless you just Get a lot of money And then it would be considered major and it would be on the front and in this well, it won't be major It won't be major Um The next statement e is found on page 20 in the audit. This is going to be your activity for the year um for general fund You have a little over 75 million dollars in actual revenue collected Most of that being your tax revenue Um for your total expenditures of 71.8 million dollars Which leaves you um for operating Revenues and expenses Just under 3.3 million dollars There were some transfers in and transfers out um Totaling a transfer out of 2.4 So your net change to fund balance for your general fund is about 800 and 18 thousand dollars schedule Is it scheduled statement a The statement be you know schedule a and schedule b in the back of the audit um is your comparison to budget Um schedules with your revenue and your expenses For your revenue y'all had adopted about a 73 million dollar budget This does include the 44.5 million of the school that's included in here um And you exceeded that exceeded revenues By about 2.3 million dollars um Mainly due to grants and some fire department and ambulance charges that y'all had conservatively budgeted for for f y 23 For the expenditures, um, you did exceed budget by a well by about 1.5 million dollars This is strictly due to the Fund balance transfer that was voted on and approved to move from general fund Into the capital projects fund Um, and so you can't just move fund balance from one front to the next you actually have to book it as an expense So that is why you see expenditures exceeding the budget To finish this out as you can see the tiff fund has a deficit Fund balance for the end of the year. This is to be expected And I know you're talking about other capital projects and then the revenues does come in later years as the tiff is created to do You can see about 4.4 million dollars in your capital projects fund And this does include the 1.6 million dollar transfer in from operating fund And then a combination of all the other funds for the fourth column statement g On page 22 of the audit is your Proprietary fund your enterprise funds these funds are designed to make money and be self-sustaining Your the rec programs at this point right now Does have a deficit fund net position? um in talking with martha there is A lot of other positions in place with leadership to address the deficit and I will say this has been decreasing as the years have progressed So they are making strides and and decreasing that The The water department and then water pollution and storm water utilities All have a positive net position Um, which most of that is tied up in your capital investments Um, but you still have a positive unrestricted net position um Which is awesome. We don't actually always see that in these enterprise funds um So that gives you some working capital within those funds and then statement h On page 23 shows the activities for the enterprise funds um As you can tell with the water funds as a whole they all had net operating income Which is positive The only fund The water pollution fund because of the debt interest expense Did create a deficit a change in net position to be deficit by $50,000. So it did reduce The net net position By just a little bit the other two funds water department and storm water Did increase the net position And um and with that we also saw increases in the capital assets associated with those funds as well um All right so I did receive a question related to one of the notes, um Regarding the retirement benefit And when we read it I it said that there was an unfunded liability For insurance for health insurance related to retirees and I wanted to address that to say The the liability the current liability for actual retirees is $643,000 or so um when we look at the sick bank Fund there's only about $345,000 in that fund balance So when we say it's unfunded we mean it's not fully covered But it is partially covered And at this point there is um budgeted on a yearly basis to continue to contribute to that fund But it currently remains um not fully funded Okay, so I think you've answered my question So the number in the note the 3.6 million is net of The amount in the sick bank account Because you say unfunded and then you say three six But there is you know roughly 350,000 in the right account. So is that is that a net number? It's not but what what I'll do is as I've talked with Martha and what we're going to do is revise the note to say It's partially funded partially funded. Yeah and reference the sick bank account. Correct. Thank you. Okay. Yeah Are there any other questions? I have two letters to get to but are there any other questions related to the audit? Um, normally every year we issue what's called a management letter Um, and I will say in the past There have been comments associated with that and it's just as we're doing the audit if we come across something that maybe We think could be improved We issue a management letter comment It's usually pertaining to internal controls policies and procedures and strengthening The business office. I will say that this year I did not Have any comments for martha. I know we had a comment last year. She addressed it and Um, this year we didn't find anything. So I think is awesome. Congratulations And the last letter we issue is referenced as a sass 114 um, the biggest thing out of this letter is Um, this middle thing where it says we encountered no significant difficulties in dealing with management and performing and completing our audit So I in that I would like to thank martha and selene Um for making this audit Pretty smooth That would be it. Do I have to question or two? Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're. Yep. I'm done Signing stuff. I apologize. So I I don't know how full audit process works, but does it include some? um sampling of of receipts and and expenditures and making sure that they were signed off and things like that Yes, we do a test of controls is what we're testing because there are some policies and procedures that are written that martha and the business office follow and so we sample expenditures cash receipts credit cards journal entries review them to make sure All what's written in the policy and procedures are followed How do you select those are they randomly picked or do you ask for the last month or um I uh, I believe the correct word is haphazardly Um, it it truly is just you know, sometimes Depending on the auditor it depends on how I feel or if uh another person is helping me So it could be yep. I want to see the first 30 journal entries for this month or You know 10 journal entries from this month But it could also be I'm going to review a bank statement and say I want to see this checker. I want to see this check it just It kind of we you know, we look through bank statements We look through their general ledger detailed general ledger and we say, you know what this kind of looks funny to me I want to see the backup documentation for this um It's not always like that. Um and so um It yeah, it really just depends on who's actually doing the test work Do you get down into like a pay stubs at all? Do you look at that? Sometimes um, we do more of an analysis a substantive approach to payroll because we understand that it's a significant part of a city's budget You normally it's like 80 percent Um of a budget so we do some substantive testing that says, okay Well, the ratio, you know what it was last year at 60 or 80 percent And then if we do the ratio again this year and it's in line with where it was last year Um, depending on you know conversations depending on I read all the the city council minutes Um to see what kind of discussions there have been depending on you know, I talk with jesse. I talk with martha Have those conversations To determine maybe there's something that we need to look into further Then just the substantive testing And if there is then we get down to yep, we we haphazardly suggest Pick employees Try to get one at least one from each employee group um review pay stubs review All that detail associated with it So how many like ooh, this looks a little weird. Did you have? Well, I can say that anything that might have looked weird Wasn't um had all the backup and signatures. Otherwise we would have made a comment on it Um, sometimes it's it could be a vendor. Um, sometimes it could be, you know, if I see martha's name And it's for a thousand dollars that you know, I'm I might want to look at that to see, you know Does it look funny or if I recognized, you know a council person's name and it's running through accounts payable when it should be running through payroll um We also look I'm trying I'm trying to think um Like I have I have school district experience and You know something funny might be they bought a dog bed, you know, and it's like well really but The kindergarten, you know, no They bought the padding for the ground so the kids could sit on it because it had the padding and the and the carpet I'm like, okay. I can I can see that And it's a legitimate purchase, but that's some of the, you know, funny stuff that we kind of see and Look for Okay Any other questions? All right, do we have to adopt? No, we just have to Oh, we have to accept it So do we vote to accept? I'm trying to remember. I should know by now, huh? Okay, so, um, I move that we accept the f y 23 audit second Any further discussion? Just do it again next year Um all in favor signify by saying hi. Hi Great. Thank you very much Thank you All right, so now we have the tiff bond documents Man, were there a lot of these? No, no, no Welcome, this is tiff For madam tiff Um, good evening for the record a lot of blanchard community development director and um What you have before you are the tiff bond documents We applied in the late winter to the vermont bond bank following council meeting and council approval for the for the the vermont bond bank to issue the last Piece of tiff district debt. Um, so this is our last opportunity to issue debt That would be financed with tiff district financing. Um, and this is the last amount that the voters have authorized It's for 18,606,000 and I think it's 500 and maybe 35. I'm not sure but uh Since we met with you, um, we uh, martha And I went through various bond schedules and scenarios. So what was presented in the Initial packet was a very conservative Number so that had interest over four percent. It had level payments. So similar to a house mortgage meaning that the payment the principal was paid down more slowly than traditionally with the bond and so what What we settled on with the bond bank given a variety of schedules that they gave us So at the same time so we could look at the differences in interest as well as How the payments would affect the cash flow over time was A four-year delayed principal With 10 principal payments that are level. So that gives us a lower Interest rate than we would have in a different structure But it also allows the city to push the initial principal payments, which are one tenth of 18 million essentially Out for a few years in order to assess the cash flow before we need to start paying those So what's the year when all of the bonds are paid off? I want to know if I'm gonna be alive I really hope you Well, I mean it might be a lot. Um, so it's uh, it would be f y um 20 38 Oh, okay, so not not too far. I could do that Well if I was gonna be 110 it would be unlikely But yeah, so so, um, essentially what you have before you are is the um agreement, uh, and so the resolution That is in your packet Would enable the bond bank to go out and And issue those bonds and it also allows the agreement to be executed the loan agreement to be executed With the bond bank Okay, that's a lot of work Um, our bond council put most of that together, so that's good. Yes, okay All right Are there questions? So this includes the bridge Williston road The extension of garden street What was the fourth thing city center park the park the park the bridge bridge, okay the second bridge The second bridge, yeah When you when you say the extension of garden street is that over on the wiliston road side? Yeah, that reconfiguring that Right going across wiliston road And we're still in the process of looking for outside found funding for For the bridge. Yeah. So this is the same Amount that was in the tiff district Plan from before Okay, we haven't changed that But I will move I guess is there a special motion for this? I didn't see one Yes, I will move To approve the tiff bond documents for the final tiff debt as previously approved by the voters Second, okay any discussion All in favor signify by saying hi Hi Good job. Yeah Well to all of you too All right item 14 discussion of a growth management plan And provide direction to staff So I'll kick this off as paul comes down Come down So you requested at your last meeting that we add a conversation of potential growth management plan to our agenda this evening Paul and I spent some time putting together this fairly quick summary Um Calling your attention to the relevant goals that are currently in our city our newly adopted city plan 2024 and related discussions that outline Both goals and actions related to the growth. We're intending to see a link to the planning for vibrancy Report that the team recently did for the community. I mentioned the Earlier the statewide efforts to plan for Um plan for housing forest blocks and other state and local investments So I think the the key questions I think this council or future council need to consider as we Contemplate doing a growth management plan Is really what is the goal of such a plan and how is that different from the direction that's within the city plan What are the specific constraints the council in the community are concerned with? that will inform The orientation to what data we collect what professionals we bring to the table Guidance on are you looking to establish tools to Manage growth that keep up with our current rate of investment in public infrastructure and services Are you looking to establish tools to incentivize a certain type of growth in order to meet? Our workforce and community good needs and our community vision For example realizing the success of the tiff district Meeting our service provider needs at partner institutions So those are some key questions that we brainstormed and then we made some very broad recommendations about A potential governance structure that could help guide such a plan We're recommending the creation of a task force the planning commission has a Huge work plan and at an effort like this. I think is broader than just Planning commission but really should involve lots of key partners all the committees the council school board etc And a task force might be well suited to to kick that off likely this will We'll need additional resources to bring in The right minds thinkers economists demographers Get data sources, etc and then we provided a set of Examples of how other communities have addressed growth management plans just It always helps me to look at examples. So as I was researching those that we would throw those in there. So That's the memo we provided paul. Is there a Key point you'd like me to like to underline? No, I think you had all of it. Thank you so Happy to take direction tonight or have you all Think about this have this be part of a future policies and strategies conversation um We are Here to receive guidance. I just have a question in terms of um the resources that you might need to really pull together some of the um Consultants that you sort of mentioned and I'm Just wondering. Um, I won't be part of that conversation, but we still have some ARPA money Available and I'm just I'm sort of like putting it out there that this since to me. This is um, not a whole lot different than paying for um parks plan, right? um That that might be a funding source because I think Personally, I think this is a Really important thing to do And we we needed to be robust and Really give us information that can help Both the planning commission and the council and other committees and city government to make certain decisions And kind of have some idea That we might um not have unintended consequences, but We would be planning and it Would work out It won't always, but So I'll I'll just put that out there or something for the future council to consider Yeah, I mean what I'm struck looking at the power point presentation is that Is it this one I'm looking again um that I don't know if yes um The modeling between city housing data and school enrollment data So what I what I see is that the the different I think we've been diversifying our housing stock and have been attracting different types of families to it and I don't know if that is the sole tool When I think about the concerns of the public That the city and school district work together in order to to plan I think that the school population is one of those areas and I don't quite know how How to control that I mean it's it is difficult other than making sure that we have You know the diverse housing stock where it's not all for you know The family of five that there is You know for for people who are just moving in and getting a career. They're they're single. They've just you know gotten their first job To to the retired person that there are there You know that there are options in the city That I consider and I've said it before to to be um really beneficial in terms of evening out You know the demands on our on our municipal services and the revenues that we can collect Right that the families are very there. They have a high demand on our on our services And so you know We want the families, but we need to make sure that we have Our services in place including schools so that we can provide for them what we need to provide for them What they expect us to provide for them. I don't know how to control that Other than diversifying the housing stock, but I know the town of williston has a growth management plan I would just be very wary, you know having talked with two planning commissioners from the town of williston that You know numbers may not lead to the best outcome in terms of You know design and and You know best use of space and and all these things so you know That's that's a balance, you know for people to consider You know, is it truly numbers that we need to control or are we You know finding solutions Um Where we accept that we don't have total control but where we attract a diverse Population Which is I think what south berlington has been doing and I heard You know very good things about what south berlington is doing But clearly we have Growing pains in our school district Thank you, um I think um part of what I'd written Jesse's memo was the fact the idea that we probably don't need a growth management plan since we have all these other activities going on all but That's not that wasn't actually the accurate that was my first read my second read is um It seems to me there's the the tension in the in our city right now is between conservation and development um And I feel that from from an housing point of view and not not just business but housing development and open space and I think this would be a great spot to Have community input and both of those ideas Because a growth management plan any kind of growth is also going to mean pressure on open space And I think so I think from a community discussion point of view and I like the idea of I mean it needs to be done in a professional way, but there should be a great deal of public input in terms of expectations So I see that as a as a as a as an avenue for that discussion to continue And I think we saw some of that tension earlier tonight between the expectation of a parcel that can be developed and what can happen there versus The versus the converse the the conservation side of that that parcel So I so I so beyond needing to be financed and having another group of Folks at the table here soon Without burdening them of a of a task. I think it's a good idea to move forward Well, I'll throw in two cents so I I seem to think that the city plan is like a growth management plan already I mean it establishes I mean you take that in conjunction with the ldr's and it provides rules or rules about How high you can build where you can build where you can't build right and we've we've laid out where we don't want to build And the last set of ldr changes two years ago spelled out pretty severely, you know, um what our conservation Objectives are um, especially in the southeast quadrant so But I think the question that was raised It has more to do maybe with schools, right and in like enrollment numbers And then you know the need for possible, you know construction Like the zems are right over there and they're a very good example of a bolus of kids going through The elementaries that demanded more space that I don't know if if it was anticipated or not Right, so then the question is can you how do you manage that? Well, you manage it by predicting it accurately and then taking steps in advance to provide that resource to those To provide that space for those kids when they come along, but you can't you're not always right, you know And so I mean Vermont isn't really growing, but Chittenden County is growing in south burlington is growing And we're attracting more people in because of the diverse housing stock, right? So that is going to add pressure to the schools. So maybe the question's more about How do we manage that? How do we manage our Our additional housing and the pressure it puts on population in the schools Right without sending our property taxes through the roof, which is probably going to happen anyway Unless something happens in my pillier, you know next month or this month, whatever, you know what I mean, so But it's more than the school costs as well. I mean there's services That more roads and I mean school is probably the most expensive because What did Andrew work out 28,000 bucks or 24,000 a kid? I mean if you take the whole budget and just divide it so You know you add another hundred kids and you're talking some big big money, but we're also talking about But if you take if you say edgewood is done, right and the hill farm is probably going to get done, right? And you look at whatever other big developments that are going to be done the rest of it's all You know rehabilitation or recycling of existing real estate into more housing, right? So those roads are already there Now I hear your argument, right? But but the question is how much, you know a marginal increase in those other Demands will there be if there's more people there's going to be more demands on fire and police I mean, I guess I mean, you know retail takes a fair block of their time and You know and then the opioid problem takes a big block of of fire, you know people maybe So yeah, so yeah, and so So good. So growth management is is how do you manage the servicing service demand increases, right? And that includes schools so right, right? I just think and I would agree the biggest chunk is schools So I'd love to see somebody else's plans first before we did anything I mean, we just look at them collectively or somehow Well, there's a whole list of them. Yeah, but I mean, I mean and how how have they been used and have they been used effectively? I mean, that's Yes, Andrew So I started thinking about this when we did the school tour a few months ago And each one of the principles in the elementary school And the middle school talked about Unanticipated student growth and how they were squeezed here and squeezed there and didn't have rooms and They didn't expect it and they can't keep up and I'm like, oh, okay Well, that's really interesting and it kind of dovetails with some of the discussions around the school construction budget that went down And then I look at the really great presentation and I see that in the past two years we've built like close to 900 homes and Permitted and could know the closest 700. So that's 15 1600 homes. That's like a 15 percent increase In our housing stock and I'm just saying, wow, these like Seem these things just seem like We need to get a better handle on it because we're not growing it one and a half percent 15 percent if I have that right um So that that was kind of my perspective that we just maybe Understand this a bit better and get a better handle on um, are we growing in a way that We can anticipate plan for and project in a good controlled disciplined way The other part of this for me is Like the vision of what south burlington wants to be in 10 20 years Do we want to be an urban area where you know, every everything grows to five stories everywhere it can and You know, there's 600 new homes added every year and there's traffic and You know, do we want to like retain a little bit of our charm? And that that's also to me plays into this. I don't know. It's so much an open space for us Development because I think the LDRs do a pretty good job about delineating the open space at this point But it's it's just more about like at some point Are we going to have so many people that this place loses what we all love about it? And and and maybe not but it's something we should think about You know what our carrying capacity is to support the quality of life that we all love So that's that's kind of my um Perspective on this why I think we should give a little bit of thought I'm not saying we should have a plan and we shouldn't have a plan, but it just seems to me it's worth considering And thinking about in terms of budgeting um I would not want to budget a lot for this right now I guess personally I'd love to implement the climate action plan. We haven't done anything unthermal And like I think we should start that and prioritize um our Some you know our housing stock, but we're going to do about that I just think like that's Probably in my mind a higher priority, but I don't want to lose this conversation. It makes sense to Think about it and see what we can do With a task force, maybe of community members people from different committees You know citizens volunteers looking at other plans pulling information together to figure out Okay, is this something we want to do we need to hire a consultant? I'm not there yet to spend money on it I I just think it's something we need to think about and consider other thoughts I yeah, I just want to there was a great Op-ed and vt digger written by paul bierman a evm professor talking about burlington's infill projects and I would really Encourage you all to look it up and what he said and I've heard it said in the city is to You know really focus on where we have impervious surface and so when we look at the neighborhoods um and infill You know, I think we just in terms of carrying capacity. I I often think about that is How much you know, just green space do we need in each neighborhood so that we're not We're not causing flooding of basements, right? We're and we're not creating so much runoff that the pollution in the lake increases that was his His point specifically pollution in the lake increases dramatically So that's something that I I would prefer You know the the diversification of housing we have a lot of single-family homes Here our schools at the present time cannot We don't have a plan to have you know more school buildings um, so looking Where you know looking at our city center really prioritizing I think our I think our plan does do that It prioritizes development of our impervious surfaces and looking specifically You know at the humor property for instance and and that whole city center area that makes a lot of sense Or along route seven that makes a lot of sense We have big parking lots that should be the priority for where That housing goes in and if it can be apartments where we can have these You know new You know professionals and and the the service workers and everything else that we need to make You know our our businesses run and our in our residents You know have the amenities that they need we need housing for those people and and you know that just looking at Bringing in that younger population. It's what keeps what keeps the state Operating it's what keeps our city operating as well and I do agree with you tim that I think that our You know the city plan that we just Passed that it it has been the growth management plan of south brillington traditionally. So I do agree with that, you know and some of the of the the Developments that have caused extra traffic on roads end up triggering the need for a traffic light, right? So, you know developer a comes in doesn't meet the threshold b when c gets in there They go oh now we have this many trip ends and now we have to have the traffic light, right? And maybe we and maybe the start exists, but maybe we need that kind of a detection on housing so that When developer c comes in The impact fees for education could ripple or could ripple or something like that, right? You know in other words if if you if you're going to trip that wire where you're going to have to buy 10 more zems Or whatever it is for the school to be able to contain that capacity Which you could pretty much predict is going to happen because of this type of housing then you really need to like Turn a big switch on to extract the money to pay for that thing, right? Which which may in fact then reduce the number of units that get built on that property, right? You know if that may be its own growth management where you say The schools can't afford to put these kids through because we don't have enough teachers enough space So you're going to have to pay the cost to add an addition to the school in which case they go Well, that's going to affect our decision on how many units to build, right? Which it affects a lot of things, right? Sure Because I think the two interlock really closely and and they they need to be looked at before we just And this is the this is the the dilemma The only way to change the vacancy rate on on apartments, right is to build a lot of apartments Which germany finally figured out, right? Is just permit the hell out of it and build as many apartments and then the vacancy rate starts to go Up, right and then landlords go I've got to rent these things, right? And then they start lowering rents. I mean, that's the economic theory, right? But the problem is that I think probably if we build a whole lot, they'll just get all get filled up Right, and they'll bring people around Chittenden County Or just into Williston. Yeah. Yeah, I keep wondering so How many units? I mean they they say we'd like what 20,000 Is that the number paul that um CCRPC, yeah CCRPC says is that what we need for Chittenden County? Uh, 20 or is that the state? I I think that's a number that's been thrown around the state is currently under act 47 developing a 2030 and 2050 target to be assigned to each region So there isn't I know there's been a number tossed around, but I'm not sure that's following the formal methodology that has been sort of assigned in act 47. So I I can't speak to that number I just am astounded at how much housing has been built. You know, I drove through Winooski the other day I went, oh There's two new apartment buildings That I hadn't noticed before and you You know, you drive into Williston and you get lost trying to find l l bean and it's you know I don't know how many units they've built. We've built a lot um can be in rise in Burlington It's gonna have another 500 and then you have the downtown. So part of me is like All right, we have these goals, but Are we meeting the housing needs for vermont or are we needing Meeting the housing needs for New England Or california or and so and so where does it sort of begin and end Affordable I think is our people because they have lists with um, You know the housing conservation You know, so they're not sort of Rummaging around New York City to see who needs an apartment affordable apartment and shipping it up here at least Texas isn't yet, but um The other housing like behind my house, I don't know who those people are But that's why I think you can't answer the look at it from that lens That's why I really think we need to look at this from the lens of What do we want to be? What's our vision for the town? Do we want a traffic light at every corner 20 years from now with traffic at every corner? You know, do we want apartment buildings lines? Like is that what we want? Or do we want to keep some of our charm? And and and and once we figure out and or agree on what we want to be Then we could maybe enact some rules to try and get us there and whoever moves in moves in, right? Uh, that that's where I would look at it like first set the vision out Just that you want to see them So I have a whole lot of thoughts on this and I think I I agree with you We are not at all ready yet to allocate money. We have no idea what we'd be allocating money for Having said that to answer the questions you are asking are You know, social sociology, phd urban planning, phd Questions, you know, what is the utopic city we're trying to build? And how do we incentivize getting there? Do we want a diverse population across the income stream? Or do we want affordable housing and Housing for the richest who can afford to enter because we are we are an attractive place to live We are going to be an attractive place to live for Decades for centuries and how do we embrace that and manage that? I guess I would I would just also add that We can talk about who we want to be and where we've come in the data And I think to me that's where I I think we have to start I think there's another side of that conversation though that we're going to need to overlay at some point which is What are the services we need to operate that utopic community? And we are seeing those Eliminated because we don't have workforce. So if we want to have you know act one bridge program just totally closed because they couldn't maintain A workforce which means all of our neighbors who are in crisis are going to go sit in the emergency room as opposed to go to a Therapeutic setting that is a value. We are placing on lack of workforce housing Um, what are the policies that we have around and this is way outside by way about my hey great, but way Around other school policy issues, you know, are we okay operating five school buildings? Are we okay with class sizes of a certain size? Is that a way that we counteract some of the cost? Experience I just want to share this for a minute because I think that this to me This is where we really need to I think we need to start so The team not me the team put together. It is really interesting. Yeah spreadsheet. This is in the population I think during the presentation. I think Megan. This is the one you were talking about You know in this this is where we are right now right in in 20 20 4 25 we're right around this point in this graph So to Andrew's point, we've added all of these new homes The last big increase in school enrollment was here in 2016 to 18 Then we added pre-k. So that went up. That was a policy change We I think we all agree that school kids going to pre-k has a great idea So The green or the light blue bar is the population So yellow is the number of dwellings number of homes population The blue is the population in south berlington. The dark blue is the population per the mcgibbon Yeah, the middle one An angle it is green your screen The light blue and the dark blue are The light blue and the dark blue are diff are are the Light blue is what the planning zoning department is Estimating based on what we have the dark blue is What mcgibbon demographics has come up with which is the school demographer. Well the school demographer not for the school This is showing that the school demographer may not be No, no No, no, no, no. No, I'm not accusing anybody of anything I'm all I'm saying is that Here are all those new homes coming online as you're talking about The population is going up in accordance not necessarily at the same rate And then this is the rate of change We've actually seen in the schools in the last couple of years now That could be a total anomaly that that's leveling off It could we don't really know what happened here for the spike in these couple of years But it seems to have been leveling off So I think we need to dive in to beggin's point about like why is this happening if we assume that this data is accurate That our team has put together and the school demographer is put together We did see a big jump in the school population based on something and pre-k But we haven't seen it in the last couple of years So does that mean we just need to double down on school planning and address the increase we previously saw that we haven't planned for Or are we really going to continue to see this and what is driving that and how do we manage that if that's really our concern Our initial concern So um, I'm going to be careful in my word choice is the demographer is a professional demographer They are looking at a lot of different factors that influence population in migration out migration Births deaths all sorts of things. So I'm not you know, I can't qualify that In in what we put together from the city end We looked at what we are anticipating in future housing and then we called out a approximate stable People per household from what we have going forward. And so there are some differences in there What, you know, I think we'd need to unpack what are some of the assumptions that are different, but it felt Fair to show a couple of different versions of this for you all the Pre-k and the k to 12 numbers are done based on the McKibbin Demographics So it is conceivable that if the line falls somewhere between the blue and the Greenish blue That that there could be a relationship to those two lines also, but we are getting I Did not take a course in demography So I want to be mindful of that but it shows a ring indicates that There should be some more discussion so that those two bars may be coming closer I don't know or maybe the demographer needs to have a discussion With some city staff, maybe maybe or maybe not the demographer is Not anticipating certain trends. I don't know. Well, what's interesting is the light blue and the dark blue For the known years are right on Yeah, so it's it's looking forward. It's you know, it's it's the forecasting that's different Well, of course, it's going to be Well, McKimbaid's numbers though, we're not looking back McKimbaid's numbers were forecast, right or no Um, I think what I did the way I understood is there's been there've been every two years McKibbin reports for the last decade or so and so I uh Whenever they have done the most recent one They have chewed up any numbers from the past and so I collected their prior ones and chewed up So that doesn't surprise me that they would okay. All right. I didn't know that it was chewed up I thought that was all of his forecasts My point was less about these out years, which you're absolutely right, yadja We need to get these figuring out how we're using the same data source My point was more the recent past what happened here with this spike in the rate increase And as the rate increase has leveled off Is that our policy working to diversify our housing stock? Is it something else understanding that? I think my answer some of these questions about How do we plan for what's coming up if our value is to keep our schools around the same size or if our value is to know how our our school population is going to change so the school can Appropriately plan for their capital needs So I was just offering this as maybe this is a starting point for a task force conversation has to unpack that eight years Eight There's lots of interesting potential My daughter started kindergarten She brought all her friends A challenge here is that there's so many variables That could go into this so using just one for instance When john slayson came to you A little over a year ago about the school impact fee one of the things that he'd identified was that in south berlington we have a higher than the state or national averages of Students who are in one bedroom units And so I don't know if you recall that detail But the the impact fee that would be normally charged to a one bedroom if you use just national metrics is miniscule because there are no kids in it, but there are A the data shows that there are more here So it it may not even necessarily be about the type of housing or what was constructed or when things were constructed But it may be about the cost of housing and where people are choosing to You know live in different environments than they Might have chosen to live in before so it's there's just so many different variables here that would Be worthy of unpacking to the extent that we can Yeah, our housing costs are something audit We need an audit Think she laughed like a population quality audit, right? It says that and he just takes samples like these people moved in why because x and y they have two kids where they come from Well, the affordable housing committee would like us to do a housing audit, you know, I mean They would like us to look at what the needs are So, I mean, I'll just put that out there to the two guys are going to be there In a month, you know The two guys, right? This is a helpful conversation. I'm not hearing a whole lot of immediate direction to staff, but I think Um, we'll keep it on the medium burner and see what the new council prioritizes in the next month or two No problem Well, but sometimes when you campaign you hear things so you get a sense of the community that you know They also have three council candidates on Go to meeting right now. Yeah, right So, you know, they will they will bring additional perspectives Yeah, I think that will help that discussion But I think it's an important one and I Would hope it doesn't die all right, have we Been successful in a real zinker for your last meeting A real zinker for your last meeting Okay item 15 the policy priorities and strategies report number two So annually I we bring this to you Right around this time of year as our second installment of this annual report I'm not going to walk through this. This is uh in the purple column in the far right column In the red text you can see this iterations updates We bring it to you now both to celebrate the successes of the outgoing counselors But also as an orientation tool for the incoming counselors And obviously for you all to Have a snippet of where we are with each of these priorities. So I'm happy to answer any questions about these They're But I I won't walk through them. I guess I'll stop there Well, I read through them and my reaction is you've been really busy and we've made some real progress on a lot of areas and then there's also those kind of Disturbing realities that say You know we couldn't get to it You know and we try and be really upfront about that not yet started or just the resources aren't there But and I Yes, that is true. And I would also To state the obvious You know, these are the activities we take to further the community's vision. They don't Take into consideration The core government we're providing on a day-to-day service. Nowhere in here does it say we're going to respond to Calls for service or run elections, but obviously we're doing Is there any any follow-up on the community gardens close to the airport that the airport would be putting on their their land Paul conn director of planning and zoning just what I can say just briefly is that Uh at the right around the start of the new year I had met with the airport director to discuss a variety of things and one of them was their general schedule and and thinking for that what they call their overall landscape plan which includes The trail and different components and potential funding sources and partnerships associated with it We are due for a follow-up pretty soon on that but They are What what they reported was at least in terms I can't speak specifically to the community gardens But generally the project and the next big phase of it They were looking to do sort of timing at commensurate with their next major airport capital project Which is a terminal expansion Because that is triggered terminal rights that triggers a mandated um landscaping Budget that then can potentially be both applied to it and then thinking creatively about how do we accelerate it? But from a design and construction that's sort of the driver of it So it's on hold for a little bit. Yeah, okay Well, they didn't get the big funding for it. So but they'll apply again. It's just If a ran out of money, yeah Can I ask a question? Um, how will the the new counselors receive this information? Will there be an orientation packet or you're going to explain it? Yes, there we staff is working on a More comprehensive orientation than we usually do because majority do council Um We would love to talk to the two of you about that in the upcoming weeks to talk about how we provide it in kind of a bite-sized way So it's a little more manageable for folks. But yes, this will be part of their Orientation packet. Well, I think they should have to read every document the city has I think so too In the city, they can't leave and a little quiz afterwards. Yeah Maybe we should do that before and if they fail the quiz 100 true false. They can't even if they're elected they can't serve Like for example, right, right. Yeah, if a setback is five feet against a grandfathered border between two houses that you know neighbor wants to Oh, you'll pick it up quick Andrew. I think that's a question. Okay. I think Andrew has a question. Oh Yes, Andrew. There's a couple of things. Um So The um staff person that we're hiring for climate Jesse in your mind. Is that um Enable us to provide resources for the items that are now say pending in the climate action plan section um That's a good question. Um, I think they They Yes, to a certain extent absolutely a dedicated climate staff can move forward many of these things beyond just that which is listed as Uh pending I keep getting kicked out of wi-fi to other people No No, um Like so shorter answer is yes, um Do they will they individually be able to single-handedly? You know fix ev charging stations City-wide probably not But certainly could put together a strategy that could help move that forward more quickly Because what I might also suggest I I am personally aware of lots of resources out there that would help the city On these projects as you know, uvm students as interns as folks that would love To get their hands dirty on a lot of this stuff. I I know people reach out to me um, and I'd really like to For us to work together to figure out If we're still short staff, how do we leverage? Those resources in a way that you're comfortable with and that's effective because those resources are out there To help us move some of these things that are that are stalled Um, so that's kind of the first point. Um couldn't and I know we're obviously going to be talking about this after the election with um The newly elected councils, but I just I do notice that or maybe I just missed it We don't have on here the conservation easements for Willer and Hubbard as items. Were you you don't think they belong here or they weren't put on during this policies and strategies? Oh, okay. So just I know that I mean the things we've been talking about so Yeah, I mean there's there are lots of things that come up Uh, so the Hubbard natural area is on here for a complete the design phase and the construction obviously Um, maybe just and conservation easement to that item Just so we track it. So this is part of this tracking tool that yeah, I think is that That was not when we did this, um exercise back in july the conservation easement wasn't part of the conversation So the council can always add new things into this So we'll we'll have that discussion you're saying and and when is the new council going to be getting together then to review this document? So this will be part of the initial orientation on the organizational meeting on thursday, no march seventh, okay How when we do the policies and strategies? Retreat with a new council is something that I would like to talk to you to about next week And then obviously talk to the full council about early in march. Okay, great. I mean on that just one point The city planner kind of says it right. So it's clearly a policy that the city Has in effect already adopted to ensure those conservation easements happen. So Right Yes, the city plan has eight years worth of policy statements and this is trying to get down to what are we doing this year. I don't are you We are actively working on both of those. No, I know you are and so I you're just reinforcing that At least the current council made that decision. Yeah to have that done. Yeah, right Okay, we're just double checking And it would be good to have it on the list And we do that in an open session, I believe As we take all of our decisions in open session just Remembering that just it's important to remind the public too. Is this open session? Yes Okay other comments or thoughts about Priorities and strategies. I love this tool. I think it's really helpful All right. Um, oh shoot. I didn't do 16 a summary Well, it's it's next It's next it's next The summary. Oh, what was the summary that the summary was that We're gonna keep her we're gonna keep her. She's doing A marvelous job the evaluation was incredibly positive You know, that's what it was I forgot to write something up. I should have had some Yeah We had an executive session We had an executive session. You are being transparent to the community. You're not firing me. I'm good There we go. No the feedback was great across the board. I mean there are a couple areas where You know, you've identified that you'll work on and But most people that were rated you rated our City manager no surprise to the public listening very highly as did the council Yeah Yeah, we picked a winner when we picked you two years ago or two and a half years ago So We're happy maybe you'll be here when that final TIF bill gets paid We'll see we'll see we hope so anyway All right 17 we need to convene as the liquor control commission Oh, this is Megan's last motion Okay, all right. I'll move that we convene as the south To consider a slew Yeah, I forgot to count liquor licenses second and we should get samples from all these locations We'll do that monday We're going to one of them anyway, duke's Is that on this list? Maybe not but anyway, um You have a motion. Okay emotion. We need a second have it all in favor. All right Okay, we are now convened as the liquor control commission And we have a number of first and second Class liquor licenses outdoor consumption permits tobacco I would entertain a motion to approve all of them So moved second Any discussion All in favor signify by saying aye Aye Wow, is that the last vote we'll take It is I well, that's not a big move so I'll move that we Come out of the south brunch and liquor control commission Second all in favor Okay, is there any other business? Yes, so I just want to take a moment to we're going to obviously celebrate two of you next week But I also wanted to just acknowledge larry your service I think sometimes it's really hard to Come on to a group midstream and pick up and carry on and I think you've done a really admirable job Second I wanted him to extend his time you could always come back Yeah, yeah, you did you've been great. Perhaps you want to be on a growth management plan task force Thank you very much for jumping on I do have a question about previous counselors because we were going to be recognizing them Do we know when that's going to happen? We have not gotten there with everything else going on We I'm sorry. We I have not gotten there with everything else going on. Okay, and I thought it was more important to prioritize youtube Okay, well, thank you So just final words This has been one of my favorite jobs Um, I loved it. It's local you get stuff done um Take a long long time Most of the time to really change make some significant changes for this community And that has been extremely gratifying And I have so enjoyed working With several city managers or at least two um and And all the different councils It's it's been wonderful. It's been an honor to share them And I thank you all it's It's in some ways really hard to lead but there's also a time for New voices that are watching us right now are listening To provide their wisdom and life experiences to A lot of the decisions that we are faced and Lots of times it's fun and sometimes it's really hard um, and I hope that you know civility and Collaboration I certainly heard that at the um Candidates forum everyone wants to collaborate and so I hope that truly happens because that's You know, that's how you get to yes is valuing everyone's opinion and trying to find um Some either a middle ground or just you can Just disagree respectfully and move on to the next point So I thank you all And I thank you Megan you have been wonderful as Um a vice chair and and really as a supporter I am always in awe of how well you write and speak and express your thoughts Do your research and you really bring you've brought an enormous amount to the table Well, thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you and I want to thank you for being an excellent chair Helen I think you've led this community through Some really good times but through lots of choppy waters and you've done it with grace. You've done it with eloquence And you've done it with integrity. I want that to be really said And tonight was another example of that. So I thank you for that. It's it's not a small job democracy is is you know starts at the local level and It really depends on the people's trust and That's the that's the weight that's on counselor's shoulders. It's maintaining the people's trust And we can see that sometimes there are You know easy jabs that people can can make that can perhaps You know really put people's trust in question and that Just maintaining that integrity is so important and in transparency is the first step towards maintaining that trust but also just the The way you have come forward on many occasions Helen and just really laid it out very clearly you have a mind like like it's just a steel trap and and I've I'm in awe of that. I I couldn't come here and I don't have the steel trap I I would rely on lots lots of notes which Um Yeah, so I like you this this has been an incredible learning experience I did not have the decades of experience in the state house like you did before This is my first time in public service Um, and it's an amazing experience and it makes me really proud to be a member of this society And I just hope and I do pray that we hang on to it. This is precious This is so precious and it's not easy. It's hard hard work so um Just i'm glad for the people who are stepping up and taking on That hard work. We need it and some of us. We just need to have a rest too. That's right Because it is hard work. It is hard work. Yeah, so and I want to thank the staff the staff has been Yeah, really really fabulous and Uh, we live in a in a place that is blessed in many ways and and the administration is really One of those things but I I have real affection for the people at this table and in this room um, and some of the people in this room have already gone so It is it's with it's with a heavy heart to walk away from just this last, you know These last moments in a meeting, you know the other business. It's like where we can kind of like Oh And just touch base. I'm a couple of things. I've it's it's kind of a special time of the meeting so anyway with real affection and uh Thank you for carrying on. Yeah. Yeah, okay You will be fine and and you know, Megan and I still live here Yeah, I mean, you know people I mean, what are you gonna do? Well, I'm gonna continue to live here. You know, I mean I'm still be Um active So anyway, all right. So if there's no other business Motion to adjourn so moved And thank you channel 7G all in favor adjourn. Thank you