 Boom, what's up everyone welcome to simulation. I'm your host on sake and we are still on site in Brooklyn, New York We are going to be talking about realigning technology with humanity's best interests and we have with us Max fossil. Hello. Good to meet you. Just getting good to see you again. Yeah. Good to see you again My man, I'm super prompt to talk about this. This is one of the most pressing issues of our time and Max's background is perfect for this. Let me give you the breakdown. He's a multi award-winning storyteller poet and filmmaker He is four years as the founder of words that move and you've probably seen some of his videos We'll link them in the bio things like this panda is dancing subway love and Stop making murder is famous also three years as the head of education at the Center for Humane Technology, which is what time well spent morphed into and That's really in this is really interesting because max also came with an eight-year background in social media strategy for Fortune 500 company, so he was building out These these persuasive technologies that we see and so now he's made this move into the intelligent of the light side I think so I'm super pumped to talk to you this is We're gonna be talking again about this super pressing issue that we have as as Technologies per meeting everywhere into our world, but we are kind of like we find ourselves ethically as kindergarteners with godlike powers of technology so tell us about this kind of This big history understanding of things as we find ourselves as stewards of the earth with these godlike powers But we haven't really evolved our ethics quite yet One example of this that feels relevant that just Tristan Harris who's the leader of this movement in many ways describes often is That he was in the room when they decided that like a gmail notification should an email should give you a notification And to him that felt like something that wow like two billion people are all of a sudden very Frequently per day going to have their attention diverted in a specific direction And it didn't seem like there was very much thought that went into whether or not That would be the case and so all of a sudden technology here Especially mobile technology smartphone social media for the first time We have a handful of people and mostly in Silicon Valley who are deciding how to steer the attention of two billion people every day And that's unprecedented and that comes with tremendous responsibility that I think it's never been it's never been the responsibility of Corporations to think so deeply about the ethics because there's never been so much power so much control yeah, when when you put it into the Big picture understanding of two billion peoples Attention being moved based on decisions at a corporation that that gives us a better understanding of holy crap That's a huge deal and And we're tracking these devices. I think on average 150 times a day It's a two billion people 150 times a day how much human attention is being controlled there And we have trouble understanding a term like two billion and two billion is I believe about as many Christians as there are in the world Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and those are the biggest religions Christianity Islam and Yeah, and there's It's a lot of people that's a lot of And 150 times a day is being moved to so that's a lot of Collect, you know, you're building up the amount of attention. So it's not just two billion seconds But it becomes way more seconds and minutes because it's 150 times a day Yeah, it actually be interesting to calculate how many like days of our lot like how many days years per day things like that And be interested to see yeah, how much time is spent? Yeah. Yeah And I've went to serious extents to To not be manipulated by it. So I have all my notifications off on my device I have all my apps are just deleted from my device So I've went really hardcore cold turkey on it and it's been extremely helpful for me to stay really focused And executing on what I think is most important. What's what's that experience been like? It's been fantastic. Yeah Yeah, I so what did you did you deleted all of your apps? Yeah. Yeah, I have like me at all of your have like I have like Audible, okay, you know like to listen to books. Yeah, and I have You know like eat I have email and text. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have email and text Yeah, I have mostly utilities. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Yeah, mostly utilities, but not no social apps. Got it And that's been and that's not good. It's super good. I'm way more focused and and And just all notifications off is also very important that way you can You look at your device and use it as a one-way communications tool instead of people interrupting you and yeah Yeah, especially getting dragged into the social. Yeah, is that including text and email for you or those things? That's including text and email. Wow, cool Yeah, that's right. Yeah, no notifications on my device is fantastic. Nice. Yeah, it's like the best thing ever cool It's so good at different strokes for different folks, but I recommend exploring that as an option. Yeah That's often in terms of and a lot of this is about, you know We do these specific things in an effort to not be manipulated as you put it or controlled But at the same time It's it's almost impossible to escape the reach because especially about how we see the world Because even if we're not doing any of that in our phones anytime We are getting information from social media that obviously is coming through a specific filter And then even if we're not chances are we're interacting you're interacting with me right now I'm still using some social media. So I am influencing. It's like I'm influencing you in some ways the people in our lives Influence us very deeply. So it's almost impossible to fully escape And so we really need this sort of system exchange of help steering our focus our attention towards the things that matter to us Yes, yes, so like it needs to come from there, but it's cool to hear that you've taken that much Control and are happy with it. Yeah, and I definitely recommend to people It's like yeah expert like try a week exactly try it like what if just try for a week Yeah, something new and if that works better for you, then great You should do that or think about how to integrate that into your life Yep, yep There's a bunch of different ways for this realigning technology better with our humanity that we're going to explore in Conversation and you said one of them's yourself to grab the horn the horns of the bull and guide your own use by these And these quantified self shifts in your own life and see how it how it affects you and then there's the corporate and there's the Government side of things. There's a bunch of that the things that we're going to explore Max had this really interesting quote In one of his talks that he gave he said that We have a greater Proclivity to want to rule these worlds that we're going to create these virtual worlds Then we do to want to like co-create and live participate in this one. I want you to talk about that a little bit It's in one of the poems It's funny. I can almost never just quote in the middle of my poems I have to start from the beginning so I don't know exactly what that quote is But it's something like that of yeah, it seems that we're so eager to have control over these new virtual worlds It seems that we oftentimes are forgetting about this one right and some of that is that it's so much easier especially from a business standpoint to measure success in clicks like scrolls actions that we can track Then it is to like measure Success out here. How like how am I doing? How am I feeling? How satisfied I am with the way that the world is and the way that I am acting in that world It's really hard to measure that. It's really hard to think about that and This is one of the things that a lot of line speak at schools a lot of the The lung young boys are very like spending a lot of time gaming and like I gamed growing up And I would go on like 17 hour halo benders one thing I tell them is that I think if I would really check in with How I felt the first hour I was like this is awesome the next 17 I was in a fit of rage just like desperately needing to get to the next level and I'll think I was actually feeling good But it's so much easier especially in adolescence To be measuring our success based on oh like what level am I at look This game the game has a level like there's a clear metric of like I can control this and I can play more and I can get further along Life doesn't work that way like life is not a very clear Like I'm at level one and then I go to level two and this happens at level two like things are not guaranteed in that way It's much more nebulous much more complex So I think in some ways in the digital world because it's easier to measure of like the action that we take and then build Whole systems around that we lose sight of the bigger less easier to measure much more meaningful and fulfilling picture Yeah, yeah, the escapism into virtual worlds is oh It's something that I think about quite a lot and I think we are Gonna want to be these rulers of these virtual worlds more so than participate in the world that we have here It's when Tristan talks about this as well when a bunch of monks came to Google It was like a very obviously interesting sight that you see and their biggest concern was that it's never been easier to run from ourselves But like the moment oh things get a little bit awkward or a little bit uncomfortable a little bit hard It's just so easy to just sort of Run run from ourselves to the digital world because it's just a click away just a grab away And so it's but so much of meaning and fulfillment in life comes from being a person Processing what we need to process and not running away from all of our little Challenging emotions and problems not that some escapism or entertainment isn't also helpful finding the balance different for everybody, but Certainly, it's not running away from it all the time damn It has become so much easier to just jump to the digital world every time we feel a little bit uncomfortable or Uneasy like we got to face those fears. We got to face those Uncomfortabilities we have to see how they feel and process them and talk with other humans about them because that's how we learn and grow Yeah, but when we escape out of them, we never learn how to actually grow socially emotionally Yeah okay, so All right This is There's kind of a three parts to to what the Center for Humane Tech is up to That you want to you're explaining how technology is hijacking our minds you're then Helping build more humane tech through different methods and you're helping people live more intentionally with their devices Yeah, it's I mean I would describe it as like that's certainly one one way of looking at it It seems like the different pillars are The big sort of four or five organizations that steer so much human attention And is there a way to successfully impact the way that they are steering attention for the better and to make those practices more humane? Another is just general awareness like letting people know that we're being hijacked Like trying to steer how we tell this story towards like that as human beings. There just are certain vulnerabilities There's like Tristan talks about this in the way that magicians are able to fool you Is that because like whether you're the president or whether you're somebody's like sitting on the street asking for change There are certain ways that your mind works And so that's why magic works on people because there are vulnerabilities And so since we have these vulnerabilities and we have technology that can exploit these vulnerabilities Can we build tech not that exploits them but that protects us from ways that we're naturally naturally vulnerable And so spreading awareness of that possibility and like making the average person know how tech Is affecting us and how these vulnerabilities affect us in different ways And then yeah, and so in governments are another pillar I don't personally have much involvement or any involvement with in the organization But it seems like government's going to be involved in some way shape or form one way or another And so advising on what that might look like and yeah, and I won't be particularly helpful in what the answer to that question is I don't know. I'm very wary of governments But it's that is definitely one pillar of the organization And I wonder what ends up becoming most effective because the corporate has billions of attention eyeballs So the government can be tough to sometimes figure out how to best regulate things like this And then really this grassroots idea is really strong But it's hard for people to look in the mirror at themselves and make changes in their lives Yeah, I mean and that's honestly that's the awareness and aside is where I personally am most focused With Center for Humane Technology I spend most of my time like speaking in high schools middle schools education conferences things like that Trying to just very plainly tell these kids like hey look obviously technology can be great Of course, there's some things my social media that are fun We haven't been particularly honest about some of the ways that this is designed That isn't really for you But is using you as not the customer about the product and then I just show very clearly like look This is some of the stuff that's happening and the Kent in some ways it inspires a sense of rebellion of like hey Like I don't want to be used this way And let the kids think for themselves a little bit more about do I am I using technology or is technology using me? and I'm currently working on a curriculum that gives like the baseline skills of like Self-awareness emotional awareness how to plan your day and like plan your weeks to give these like these baseline skills so you can notice what technology takes away and then that also teaches a different way of looking at social media different ways of Looking at your phone So that's where my focus is currently with the organization just thinking like all right Let's do some focus on the next generation and see if we can inspire that way And of course like our children is a big lever and the things people care about is a united front So it doesn't feel like I'm doesn't feel like we're it's us versus them It's like we all obviously want what's best for the kids And so that's where a lot of my attention has been personally on This work. I was just imagining thousands of maxes across the high schools and middle schools around the world Giving this talk because it's so damn important Even that little spark that you gave me it was in it was seeing these middle and high school students seeing themselves in the mirror as using these products for the Addictive ways that they were designed and then them realizing that better that itself is so critical Just them realizing that they themselves are are following it too Addictively and that they can be better users of the digital technologies And you speak that little spark under their booties is so important for yeah, the most powerful moment that accomplishes that And it's all of us in groups so much easier to make any kind of change about the stuff in groups It's very hard especially for kids to just all of a sudden be like, you know what like I'm not gonna use Snapchat anymore. I'm not gonna use Instagram anymore, or I'm gonna use them less It's like if you're the only one it just sucks to be sitting while everyone around you is doing that and you just feel left out I'm so in groups is really powerful But so when I'm in schools the most powerful moment I think of the talks is I say raise your hand if you use Snapchat and every hand in the room goes up Keep your hand up few streaks every hand just about like a couple go down But every hand goes up just stays up just about and the streak is when you keep in touch with the person Every day you get a streak right when you send a message back and forth within 24 hours the streak builds So it's like we have sent two messages three messages and more sort of like emojis go and you start to not want to lose that streak It's like some people are on a hunt multi hundred day streaks totally They go on camping trips into the woods and they don't have service So they leave their phones with their friends so that they don't lose their strength So their friends will just like take pictures of a wall and send them back and forth to keep the streak going And so yeah, I say like keep your hand up for you streaks just about every hand And then I say keep your hand up if you'd like using streaks and just about every hand goes down In middle schools usually half the hands go down in high schools. So just about all the hands go down And so they collectively can see like around the room. It's like. Oh, yeah, we are all doing this thing But we don't really like doing Whoa, which is like a powerful moment Yeah, and then and that's often the some of the positive feedback I get from talks like oh like The like the cool junior kids ended their snapchat streaks and like this because what we talk about there is okay Like obviously this thing has started to feel very real like hey Like are we friends if we don't keep our streak going in my popular right popular in high school is the whole thing It might popular if I don't have a lot of streaks And so these metrics that are made not with ill intentions most of the time just hey people like sending messages Let's gamify it. Yeah, and that process all of a sudden becomes very real to hey Like it impacts very real relationships and friendships And so like just recognizing together that like well, that's silly like obviously that shouldn't be the case I think at least temporarily helps rethink what that is I would love to do more long-term follow-up of how this is affecting kids But it's it's early for for me in that way. I would love to hear more These transitioning moments for the youth like you just explained that How many of you use streaks? How many of you like streaks and the hands go down? How many more of those can we create? Yeah, because then those will those help them realize Oh my gosh, we don't even like using the streaks right and then I'm gonna stop my streaks And then what's the next thing they're gonna do is potentially slow down on the use of snapchat or Instagram Maybe they should draw more or make more music or make more Videos that are educational in some ways, etc. There's tons of options Yeah I mean it's it's this is hard here because we get into that line of like how much of this is like is Reasonable to ask of a person or a child In terms of their own self-control because that it I'd agree it's important to spur these things But also it's so hard when so much of our lives and so much of our social lives for adult like Literally most of our work like isn't within these devices one way or another It's like and when they're not designed to like protect our human vulnerabilities It's just so hard to have any kind of real deep work focused attitude with these devices It's like we're fighting the machine for that And so especially for kids I think like I would love for these spurred moments to be like all it takes but it really has to come from both sides Yeah, and the other like another one is having them in groups for a week delete social media from their phones And like when you first bring that up, it's like yeah, I say like you could just delete this from your phone You don't have to have it on there and that's always like a whoa, whoa, whoa We can't delete social media from our phones But I think usually the impetus that helps is like do you really not want to know what life is like? Without social media on your phone. It's like one week like you're gonna have your whole life with the option That's right But do you not want to know what it feels like that's a good one to not have it on your phone and sort of create it Like a challenge that way it's a challenge Yeah, it's like to turn turn it off for a week and see what the difference is like and maybe write about what the difference is like sure Yeah, that's a good exercise. Yeah, that's a good exercise Make a video about what it was like and put that on to YouTube and Instagram afterward put it on snapchat put it on Instagram I want to I want to I want to move into We were we started talking about this earlier with how there is Zero-sum game going on with with the attention economy that there is only 16 hours of waking attention per human per day You spend eight of the hour sleeping and then there is about 7.7 billion people on the planet so there's somewhere around a 120 plus billion hours of collective human attention as a cake on the planet and then the YouTube algorithms and Facebook algorithms, etc. Are all in these streak Designs in snapchat. They're all trying to keep you more Tied on to screens because their business models are tied with making money for their shareholders And for their company based on advertising revenue And so this sort of attention economy plus the business models of time and money being intertwined Rather than designing technology to help humanity thrive is one of the biggest issues I believe so I believe that's right at the center of it The most convincing frame of this that I've heard is that like the moment to auto-playing videos as an example The moment someone like YouTube figures out. Hey if we auto-play videos we get about 10% more attention Like okay great like that works. Let's do that. And so when I was working for a social media startup We certainly found that when you auto-play videos like that grabs more attention And so if that works and all of a sudden someone like YouTube implements that Everyone else has to look at that zero font some cake and say hey like YouTube just deployed this new trick That works and it takes 10% more attention. They're eating my market share like I need more of that person's time I can't look at you as a human being with hopes and dreams in that moment It's like I that's you're stealing my time I need that time back so then Facebook has to auto-play videos in their news feed and then you know Netflix also a lot of like everyone starts to fight in this same game For how do we grab as much attention as possible? Tristan talks about it as reaching down the brainstem and grabbing as much attention as we possibly can and say that's and I think we've like It's you know I don't believe that Facebook right now has designed an algorithm that is perfectly maximized to steal as much attention as possible I don't think they're doing that anymore. I think they have taken a step back But should it turn out that the best thing for people is to like you know what like turns out spending 75% less time on Facebook is like is what makes people feel most alive and thriving and happy Can they really make changes like that in the business model that we have right now? The answer is no And so then this is this is a crucial point So it's like if we measure human thriving and human well-being and flourishing across so many different facets of finding meaning in life's me building really strong relationships with with our families and our friends and We see that we the more that the the business models must Change on the social media companies in order for the flourishing to actually happen so the the time that we get sucked away into Social is taking us away from creative endeavoring and meaning and so many other Crucial things so then there has to be a business model shift There has to be a shift towards flourishing and then I don't know if a Facebook or Instagram or Google will ever be able to really do That we've actually talked about you you've talked about it And I've gotten really inspired about this potential idea for a shift as well is that we don't need to see ads We don't need to have time on screen be the best measure for their revenue It can actually be based on me paying $5 a month or $10 a month to use these services to not only not see ads But also for them to build out Functionalities that enable me to say I only want to use this for X amount of minutes. I want my data I want my Facebook connection network graph and I want to see how often I'm Connecting and talking to people in a way that is visualized in a beautiful way. Sure. And so yeah visualizing that could be part of it I could see that but yeah, the key thing to think about is that it we're not paying for like oh, so I don't see ads anymore Like it's like sure. Yes, but what you're really paying for is for these algorithms to put you first It's like to actually think about your life think about what is like, how do I live for me? How do I live the way that I want to live? Joe Edelman who helped coined time well spent with Tristan like really believes the answers and human values and helping people live By their values talks about how oftentimes we get to our goals and then we think like oh like well I'm here and now what that didn't feel as good as I thought I did but if we like oh like I really wanted to show up this into this interview with presence and with like thoughtfulness and if I show up that way then I feel good about showing up that way and so Joe dreams of a world where these algorithms are helping people discover and unlock what our values are the ways that we feel good about how We showed up regardless of outcome regardless of other people are doing it with us and helping us live that way more often and more freely and with more options But so yeah, I would absolutely pay for services that are really helping me do that And this is the challenge because Facebook Google have the data to do that well right now Just about no one else does And so like I would love for the next wave to be thinking this way It's like if you're not doing it. Well, it's just kind of annoying Yeah, so it's like it needs to happen well And I would absolutely pay for services that are really helping me be a better me in a way that I decide Yeah, me too and we see tons of people paying upwards of you know, 50 bucks a month for different subscriptions to things like a premiere which Gives you a video editing abilities, you know Adobe's creative suite Or you know MailChimp for managing your mail list, you know different people people are paying You tend to in the tens of dollars a month It would be easy if if you if the large giants made that much money off their two billion Users that a billion of them would pay them ten bucks a month ten billion dollars a month could get you the best engineers and designers to Maximize the thriving of the values of the of each individual There's I think there's a business model there It also is a whole inequality question that happens like this is not perfect like there's other yeah Some people can't afford the right, but like but if this thing that I'm talking about that helps me be a better Happier more fulfilled version of me I also like all of the money that I give to charity every year like that feels like Heck of a place to give is to help people who can't afford it be better versions of themselves like in such an intimate integrated way So then there's a you know, there's the charitable aspect of it. That's a good charity Yeah, like or I mean even like a one-for-one model type thing right of like of being it I would happily to like pay In my like as I'm paying for that service for someone who can't do it. Yeah, okay max Let's talk about the actual Design of the tech we've been talking about it quite a bit, but I want to specifically talk about things like the the We're we're finding ourselves more and more in echo chambers and that's been the worst I think one of the worst things is that we're no longer even having a civil discourse With people that think differently than we do about hey, you know, I have deep empathy for you I want to know how you got to where you got in your life. What stimuli did you absorb to get where you are now? It's that I never ever see opposing viewpoints ever in my Conversations with other people in my news feeds because I'm constantly fueled into staying in a silo of information that's tribalizing us in much more serious ways and even further is that When you look things up sometimes you can see different results based on where you're located based on your likes So so this is a nuanced and challenging because I mean because we are actually seeing we're seeing I believe on average or more Viewpoints of like things that we didn't believe yet, but we're seeing them for the most part in ways that like That cement the thing that we already do believe like I you know it's very easy to see the Online right now the people who are saying the ridiculous outrageous thing that is so infuriating and like I'm exposed to that viewpoint but I'm being exposed to the viewpoints that like Piss me off. I'm like, how could they think this and like I think further isolate me into my side And in some ways it feels like we're in like you're each in our own echo chamber of like as we consume more and more information through screens and Zane up to Fetski talks about this really beautifully about how When she was researching Donald Trump rallies she would She would watch one of the videos on YouTube about Donald Trump and about those rallies And then she would be pushed towards more and more videos about white about white supremacy It's not the same thing white supremacy and being a Donald Trump supporter are not the same thing But in the YouTube algorithm there was just a natural push towards the more extreme view of Something that kind of fits within that category and then with Bernie Sanders videos It was the same for towards the conspiracy left and this isn't just politics It's like this is the algorithm figuring out human behavior and pushing us more extreme versions of what we're likely to believe You look for vegetarian videos. You're pushed towards veganism. It's like you're never hardcore enough for YouTube You're never hardcore enough for this whole internet system And so like it becomes very hard to engage with people When whatever we're prone or likely to believe we're pushed towards more extreme versions of that and then anyone who Doesn't believe that our way that the world is melting is the way the world is melting It's like well, they just don't get it. How do how do they not get it? I can't really like you just don't see you just don't know you don't see what I see You don't know what I know and it's hard to like it's hard to relate to that person because we were all being pushed constantly towards the extremes of our ideas and it's a bit like and there's one other thing that you mentioned filter bubbles and Those are another thing I wanted to clarify. Oh search like within search like yeah Google patches things very quickly like I've like I think there's much less of I search one thing you search another thing Then there was in the past, but it's very very hard in Like new news event happens like live scenario something is going on right now You have lots of people searching right now Google has no time to like with all of the things that are happening in different areas of the world that are Being searched heavily how could one like possibly Like just patch all of the different misinformation all of the different like chaos that's happening in that moment of like a new search term That didn't have any context with it before so you've got that like the speed problem of we have this urge We have this like something's happening. I want to know what do we actually learn when we're following these things live like there's very like It's more just entertainment like oh my god something's happening, and I'm watching we learn very little from like the The sparse bits of information we're picking up But there are lots of people who are checking that out and tons of misinformation Happens over Google and after overall the platforms. I think that way in the very fast In the very fast events and like these are not easy problems to solve like at all like how do you fix that? I don't know. I don't know how you fix that But if I were running Google, I would have gigantic teams who are dedicated to just that and it feels like much less of the Priority than so many other things that are involved with growth and profit maximization. Yeah, yeah, yeah man this it's a So keeping the company sustaining with Profit, but also figuring out how to get that profit most effectively With balancing the human flourishing and human values Well, it's yeah, it's such a super stuff and I like I really so Apple is my one like I really hope Apple can step up for us Because it seems to most of I think something like 90% of Apple's revenue comes from hardware and not from like I add And so and to be able like to have them be a gatekeeper For us so that companies that are doing like to really be thinking Hey, like how helpful for you is like seeing news the moment it happens like how is that serving you like is and Maybe it is but like can you go through some kind of process to really think about whether that's the case? And then if that isn't the case then like maybe the apps that do that or the systems that do that aren't pinging you all the time But are kind of relegated within the App Store relegated within your phone and other things that are serving you better based on the way you decide Not like one person decides from here. This is what a good life is and go like I do believe we need that kind of choice and ability to figure it out for ourselves But can someone like Apple help us find that and help protect us from the things that we might like that are More impulsive selves might very often push us towards And this is a lot of this is also about the young people that can build the next Versions of the hardware and software and the apps and the business models that they get to creatively brainstorm and figure out What's the next best way to build That maximizes flourishing and I hope so The psychometrics side of things is very crazy to that you are better known now by your 300 Facebook likes than you than your spouse knows you or even with 10 likes better than your coworker knows you and so That sort of footprint is why don't we have access to these footprints these psychometrics? Why can't I see how I'm being profiled on the internet? These are Ways that we can better understand ourselves through getting access to the data that we actually create But that is being used to sell us ads and places in the buckets The psychometric side of things is what are your thoughts on psychometrics? Yeah, it's interesting There's because there was that Kaczynski study that that I think actually ended up being Fed into a lot of the Cambridge Analytica stuff. I don't know that much about to be honest But I it did seem like in that study from just like page likes These were like you like Metallica whatever like those type of likes not the literal things you press like on in your feed And if you think about what Facebook actually has on you It's everything you've ever clicked on scrolled through hovered over like like share comment How long you've spent talking your ex-boyfriends and girlfriends on Instagram and on Facebook like all of that data is Collected by Facebook and we don't have that and Kaczynski didn't have that But with just page likes he was able to make certain calls about us better than we knew ourselves And so like that is that is wild and actually I love what You've all you've all Harari talked about about this where he talks about how when he's he's gay And when he came out of the closet, he spent the next six months looking back and thinking like How did I not know this thing about like this obvious thing about myself? Like how did I not realize that he talks about how when you're a baby like your mom knows you better than you know yourself And then you get to know yourself better than your mom knows you But now we're kind of in this race to know ourselves better than technology knows us and that's a tough race Yeah, and one of the things that he he talks about as well He's like it feels like any sort of out like an eye tracking software Could have probably given me a pretty reasonable probability Like that I was my eyes were going to shirtless men faster than shirtless women And like what would it have been like for a to get a notification one day saying hey There's an 85% probability that like that you might be gay like just wanted to let you know What would that world look like and also what would it look like for coke to be serving him? shirtless men ads because they knew and Pepsi be serving him shortly so women ads and him just not really Be sure why he liked coke a little bit better than he liked Pepsi And so he talks about this race to know ourselves and so as an individual one of the best things we can do to combat this It's like really get to know our triggers get to know who we are And it's you know, it's a losing battle in some ways because this stuff knows so much about us And it's going so fast But I do think it's an it's meaningful and important work in my own life anyway to try and get to know like what's going on on the inside because Others are trying to figure that out. Yeah What is your full divine potential here on earth? How can you best understand thyself? But you also gave these great examples of technology helping us understand ourselves And that was really interesting because there's so much potential for that. Sure. Yeah, and that's the good side of tech Yeah, I guess I mean what would it look like if like I mean I just I can't even really I don't know I don't know what it would look like for Facebook to be using all that data To like steer me in a direction that I choose Towards a specific outcome or towards a specific way of being or value set that I have that it's helped me figure out or that I've figured out and the complex questions that come with these sort of ideas like this is not perfect by any means but it feels To me so obviously better than what exists now And whoever has access to the large data set of biometrics on our bodies and be able to Leverage things like heart rate or pupil dilation or what not what not with the front-facing cameras that that also makes a Tremendous difference on hopefully they're They're benevolent it's a benevolent technology Hopefully it's there for the betterment of our us to figure out So it needs to be a but I mean it needs to be yeah, you're right And it's it's scary because who do you trust and like who are gonna be the hopefully? Benevolent overlords of who's running these and who's collecting these data and that's why like as you've mentioned here Like these advertising models are not really in our favor as we speed in that direction So we really need to set up systems so that the people collecting these data even have the opportunity To be benevolent because in this system they do not There's a big push for opening up the data silos and letting data flow better So I think one of the first steps is going to be I think the decentralization of the data and enabling the data to flow and then When that sort of potentially like encrypted anonymized data can flow more easily then the then also is simultaneously figuring out the business model side of things on potentially having people like us pay 10 20 30 whatever bucks a month to gain access to Them helping make the algorithms for our own flourishing those things kind of smashed together would make it more so okay Now we're collecting the your biometric data again encrypted it decentralized anonymously and then when we are we're gathering that now We're incentivized also just like all the other big data giants are is to not keep that data siloed It's to provide it with a maximal level of flourishing for you It's gonna take us a while to get there But there's not really that much time to keep to get there We need leadership to stand up and say that you know these If the big if Facebook Apple Google Amazon If they if they in Tencent and Alibaba if these big giants cross China in the United States If they kind of if they kind of opened up by do if they opened up their their Their hearts to want this faster and they created a coalition like the United Nations potentially the United Technology companies that They could make this change as like a first principal pillar of their organizations It would just again and be very difficult on the revenue side of things where things would go from there But doing it all together could be a good way to do it rather than Having like seven of them looking at one that's trying to do it and be like we're not gonna do that. We need to make money So it's I mean, it's certainly it's said a lot in there There's certainly it's it's hard to just make that change switch over I also don't think it's clear for many what that change really is or what that change really looks like It's like definitely in this at the core thinking about people differently But also like if we a lot of people that we need to break up Facebook me to break up these big companies I mean right now at least we know where to look You know like I think decentralizing and encrypting all of this data and information like also in theory It's like okay You can start to see how that creates a better world But also just like the same problems we have but now everywhere like feels even more chaotic to me too So it's it's really it's it's challenging to think about Like can we actually solve the what's at the root of these problems of thinking about people differently rather than Looking at it as okay. Let's just let's decentralize that information And then like Facebook isn't the only one who has it so everybody has it And it's like it's tough to even know where to look or where to go and I it's We're honestly we're like net we're thinking now further ahead and then I can kind of see clearly To how that's gonna look when it when it if or when it does all break away that way But like I think the key here is about genuinely thinking about like the incentive model the incentive structures and Like aligning our goals with the goals of what people are creating to be able to really Push us in a direction that's gonna feel good because like just being like what just changing Like the way the data is distributed or things like that don't necessarily solve the the core problems. Yeah, I Love how much time you've spent on this and Okay, let's let's talk about kids and children you you're going around and speaking and you're getting kids to really realize like oh shit Yeah, we we really don't like the streak feature. We really don't We don't we haven't taken a week away from social media to see what that feels like There's more and more Research that's coming out about about depression about anxiety about Suicide rates about the fear of missing out about what it's like if you got to take millions of photos of your own face Throughout throughout your life and try and find the best ones that if you're so distracted that you're checking it So the phone so often when are you focused on your own creative endeavoring focused on gaining empathy and social skills So this is a serious effect for children growing up Absolutely, and it's into the research side of this is very hot it's very challenging and also it's an important point because in my experience the people especially at Facebook and at some of these bigger Companies are trying to be very research driven and very data driven and some of the research being like look depression Skyrocketing like isn't particularly robust like it's definitely a thing to look out for and pay attention to but I'm not sure that it's like convincing but that I mean like That said I mean I I do believe that if we were able to have more serious and robust research I think we would absolutely especially with Instagram find like all the self-comparison leading to Mental health issues and depression and things like that But and also that said like in terms of looking at the research here What's gonna actually happen for any kind of longitudinal study? You're looking at you have okay? Let's say we're trying to go three years Three years you have a child going from one stage of development to another by three years You have a completely different tech ecosystem things are working in a totally new way And so you have to challenge the effects between those two things It's just it's gonna be really hard just like period to find any kind of reliable research about anything in this field Which is really tough It's like a tough place to where we can point to be able to point directly to like look like this is a reason This is how this is affecting us But absolutely like it feels so obvious to me some of the things that we're losing and that we need to think about this more cautiously and more skeptically my advice to schools is to like Like we had for a while the ethos was like great like an iPad in every hand like perfect Like now we have these new tools this new innovative technology in the classroom all the beautiful example advantages how wonderful and yes, there are some beautiful advantages But we just didn't really think about what we're losing as we were putting that in the classroom And so I think a much better attitude is like, okay Let's look and assume that 99% of the new ed tech that's coming in like doesn't actually help or isn't really gonna be effective Isn't gonna create new problems to introduce this environment Let's look at it as a skeptic and really be like prove to me like show me that this actually really learns Really helps kids learns really helps improve and use that skeptical high The way I see it We have an opportunity for like a seven-hour period during the day to teach children Focus patients and how to be without their devices with exceptions like of course with exceptions There's certain special ed programs that have been proven to be really effective using technology Like certain vulnerable populations like trans students Like I found social media to be a really positive source of support And of course it should be like some classes and some things where you really do use the phones and do use Do use tech that way, but it feels like the the standard should be like that's the exception and not the rule And like are we really at risk of kids not knowing how to use these devices or not as soon as they get out of school Being totally on them all the time It's like can we can we use that period in school to teach this thing that they really otherwise might not understand or learn Yep Laughing at your deep breath. Yeah Max likes to start his talks by Having deep breaths. Yeah, feel the humanity And this is a really important time to take a deep breath because we're talking about children and children are though the future leaders and For us to see them making duck faces at at snapchat I mean, yeah, we do we do stupid. You know, we all done stupid stuff as kids too I know we did dumb things. I do think we're in a category shift of what this is We did dumb things too. You're right. It's not the same. It's not the same. We didn't have we didn't carry around Our TVs 24 hours a day. Yeah, we didn't have to go into them to talk to our friends. Yeah, that's right That's right the lack of eye contact and This is 72% of teens think they're being manipulated by technology. That's a really good one that Tristan said at the Salesforce Wonder where that's from. Yeah So you said that at the dream force Talk that he gave a couple months ago So you we've been talking about some of the some of the tools that are That are being built. I want us to really highlight some of these Tools I personally have been using like Facebook newsfeed eradicator on Desktop so you don't even see your Facebook news like that a lot. That's a good one So is a Stanford's habit lab is really good late. They literally interrupt you all the time. Yeah, they'll they'll yeah You're you like type in reddit or Facebook or Instagram, whatever and they'll just be like, yo Like what's your objective? How many minutes do you even want to spend on here? should we just close this tab right now and it's like yeah, actually I didn't want to do this shit and Sometimes you're like, yeah, actually need to send a message to someone So I only want a minute on here and then you click that and then it literally after you it like logs after 60 seconds There's a countdown it closes the tab. It's like nope. You're done. Well, so It's interesting things like that that again. We're trying to quantify our own habits using these things So yeah, tell us about some of the ways that you know that you're that you're seeing these ethical tech breakthroughs happen So yeah, right now. It's like a lot of patchwork, right? It's a lot of things like that that people are patchwork Yeah, like things like habit lab are that are doing and that's cool to hear that's been effective for you And a lot of this is about finding what does work for you But yet turning off all notifications that aren't from a human being trying to reach you is one that we recommend if you want to Go all the way into turning off all notifications sounds like that's been cool, too Basically, you're talking about the ones where like Facebook saying like oh you have 13 new Notifications and it's like trying to reel you in Twitter's like you have five new notifications trying to reel you in I like you know this person liked your photo even or happy holidays from Tinder You haven't played candy crush in a while like all of those get off turn off those notifications Those are so Low-hanging fruit those are so manipulative out of the two billion people that use the smartphone technologies What percentage of them still have those low-hanging fruit enabled? Because that's a really good question because that if we could just knock that one out of the park for like it's a question That only the company knows knows the answer to they're the ones who have that day. I bet it's over 50% I just have a feeling I think most people just don't even know to switch into Yeah, like or that you can do that or like the default is what most people do Yeah, yeah, and yes, which is that's a big part of the issue Gosh, it just it sounds to me when you say the words, you know Candy crush since you haven't played for a while or tenders like come get your holiday date or whatever to me It makes my whole body feel so uncomfortable It makes me feel so bad Because we can't be designing technology that way, you know these shows even though these shows are never paywalled completely free We never expect you to want to watch You watch it how you prefer to watch it if you want to watch all hour great If you want to watch 30 and 30 great do your thing with it We're not going to send you messages to say. Oh, you haven't learned about Biotech in a while come learn about biotech. We'd rather ask you a question like, you know About your life like hey, what are you most interested in learning about right now? Oh, you're interested in biotech? Okay, great We can do that or there's you know a bunch of other new sources that actually talk about biotech as well So we want to push you into where you're most interested in yeah And yeah, and if in your life learning is what you want to focus on it this month like there's all there's lots of ways Yes, I've thinking about this and going into it. Yes. Yes. Um, but uh Yeah, like learning notification. Yeah, maybe put that in your whole body. I like that. I like that. It does that I forgot what I was gonna say But yeah, the defaults in general I think are what most people have on and that's not great Yeah, and then how about how about your work? You know, you you you're going out and speaking to middle and high schools. You're also Other parts of your team are also doing work with the the corporate and and government side of things What are you finding to be in a good way that they're that they're transitioning into ethical tech? Um, that companies are that and government governments are I'm just so ignorant on the government side that I don't even want to don't even want to do companies. Um, yeah, the ways companies are transitioning It's unfortunately it feels a lot like Mostly at this moment and like I think Facebook has absolutely taken steps Like I think they genuinely care, but it often feels like they're mostly running a pr machine with a lot of this like New problem and like we're handling we're handling like trying it feels like they care more about the pr than solving the issue Uh, and that makes me sad um, but it's uh And actually that was what I was going to say about the the dark patterns is that when I turned off my facebook notifications Like facebook got progressively more and more desperate of like to the point of just sending me a text message I'm just like being like Like hey like this person like like I forgot what it was. It was like I was tagged in a post You know sometimes on facebook people just like tag 15 people and I was tagged in one I was getting texts of all the comments of this post And you had to go turn that off Yeah, which I like I mean He's in his own separate area. I think I just blocked the the number I just got frustrated got angry like they were still coming after me Um, be it how do you shift towards more ethical tech and a lot of this is aligning the business model Really thinking deeply and carefully about what it is that the people using your product are there for Um and making sure that you're not that you care more about what they're there for than What you're there for those things have to be aligned and how are you helping? It's just putting the person really first and at the center of this It's so easy to think well, we do more good than bad like so we do more good than bad So it's okay. We'll tolerate some of these like you know, we can do this little thing. Everybody's doing this thing We'll do this little thing. It's so easy to think that way it's much harder to really like to be like to Respect somebody's time and attention more than you like Yeah, more than you might want to encroach that might be kind of good for you But really yeah with the utmost respect over someone's time and attention That's such a good way to put it and that's kind of what we were talking about a moment ago Is thinking about what you're building and realizing that your primary goal is to put yourself out there with your Content, but you want to respect other people's attention. You want to make yourself known But you don't want to forcibly reel people in is not um, no, it's not it's not Principal to roll off of yeah, um, okay. I want to talk about so max you'll see is within with the links below max's use of poetry In a rhythm in a rhyme in the way that he disseminates ethical technology and a bunch of other really interesting video through video as well Tell us about how you latched onto onto that and uh, and we'd love to do a little uh, a little Like freestyle or something. Yeah Also see what happens But uh for me I heard this poet named in cue perform and a friend's uh at a friend's living room actually And I was just really moved. I was at that time in the tech world in the storytelling world And I was really surprised at how much I remembered of the rhyme and rhythm and just like how much it stuck with me And on the way home I started writing in the first two lines of what I wrote happened to rhyme And I was like, okay, let's give this a shot And I've come to realize that I think one of the big draws for me was yeah that rhyme and rhythm Just like help us listen in a way that we would not ordinarily and in a distracted ad world It seems like a very powerful tool to get a message like in its entirety from Where it comes from like where it comes from directly to where it needs to go Uh, and so rhyme and rhythm have been helpful to me in that way and that is like I think at my core like I'm trying I'm trying I like when I found Sometimes I found I found it like I found a thing and I need to show you this thing Um, and I want you to see this thing the way I see this thing And rhyme and rhythm have been a powerful tool to help me do that Yeah, yeah, um There's something also so, you know, you started getting at this like We got to figure out new artistic and creative strategies to get content out to people like through rhyme and rhythm that can that can That can that can turn people's heads to be like, whoa, that's different than what the majority of things I'm saying Maybe I should look over here a little bit longer. And that's how we can potentially find These new paths of of of engaging with people in ways that are exciting and new and Yeah, I like how you do that. Well, I mean, I it's I appreciate and thank you for the kind words about my work I appreciate you and that and appreciate you saying that um, and it's for me, I would love to see a system where it's like What what content is not a human need, right? Like what do you like? What are you looking for in this moment? What are you looking for? How are you looking to be and if my work can help that great have that rise to the top If other stuff can help that great have that rise to the top But have a different content distribution system That's not just about what grabs attention The most effectively but it's about how am I helping you in some way shape or form with whatever you're like Looking for or trying to be in this moment. Yeah Yeah, so you know You know, we're all little tiny specs. So we should learn how to better use our tech You know, there you go. You know, it's like there's a poet now. Who's a poet now? It's there. Yeah. Yeah I want I want everyone to also when you when you go and check out some of the videos below um With this panda is dancing the video There's this really interesting moment about the realization that if tech helped make us more human That we would we would we would potentially get that flower that we need to give to someone really cool that we meet On the streets and just the click of a button That in subway love that you would realize that the people standing next to you on the subway Is everyone's just engrossed in their own worlds that those might be our potential future lover or our future business partner or someone that's a really good friend potentially of ours In stop making murders famous. You realize that you are we need to stop Putting the names of the people that are committing the atrocities anywhere period And that only only when you're still trying to find them. Um, but besides that there's no point and um And that way, um, there's no increase in clout for more people to follow a phenomenon that's similar To that. So I want you guys to all check out those videos. Um max. What's a core driving principle of yours? Um to try and tell the truth um to try and Uh Uh to try to tell the truth try to be impactful to Yeah, you know changes all the time, but like that right now um honesty and impact are very much central in my life And if you could rebuild civilization from scratch, how would you design it? Wow, um I mean that's what we're kind of that's what we're talking about. So this whole thing has been about, uh, and I would Be designing it so that I think I mean I wouldn't design it myself I would be trying to Gather people who have thought deeply about what makes living meaningfully Um, what's lives a meaningful life and how I would think of try to have everybody work together to create those things um I think in some ways like capitalism naturally has encouraged a lot of positive behaviors for a long time negative as well It's like some systems just tend to work to create meaningful society and Capitalism's got us a long way. It's got its problems, but it's gone. It's a long way I'm grateful that I don't have to rebuild society and civilization from scratch. It's too much pressure I don't know. Um, yeah, I don't know But I know some of the things to think about and that's what we've been talking about. Yeah And do you think this is a simulation? um How do you define a simulation? How you would define one Uh, well totally well, but no, I want to know what you mean by simulation. Is this a base reality or is this a simulation like in simulation theory? uh I think there are like infinite possibilities of what reality is um an infinite I believe in a multiverse uh I believe from what I understand of that of that theory But I think and whether like whether or not it's a simulation it seems Like it doesn't matter Like we're here. We're now or wherever you are. You're there. You're now and like That last moment is gone like now. We're in a new moment. Now. We're in a new moment. Um And yeah, that's where it's where I'm at right now, but It's funny. I'm very aware of the cameras of like I'm I don't have I don't know like this past stuff We've been talking about I know a lot about I don't know if we're in a simulation I don't know exactly what the nature of reality is. I'm trying to figure it out You're a video game character that is working on helping this Civilization evolved on this rock orbiting this star figuring out how to help them make ethical tech at this important transitionary moment figuring out how to make like the most of our lives and figure out how to See how much fucking beauty there is um and live that way and Help each other and tolerate each other. Yeah, those are the things I'm trying to do Perfect segment to the last question What do you think is the most beautiful thing in the world? That we get to be here that we get to live that we get to exist that we get to Yeah, that that evolved That like that there is anything that there is that this is that like all of it that it is It's just remarkably beautiful Yeah Max this has been super enlightening. Thank you for joining us on the show. Thank you really appreciate it Everyone watching go and check out max's work in the bio below go and check out those links Also, let us know your thoughts in the comments below about the episode and some of the ethical tech conversation that we've been having Go and try these little quantified self experiments And see how you behave differently in the world when you turn off certain sets of notifications or delete apps and just see how you behave differently and measure that better about ourselves and we Help help us out help out help out the center for humane technology The links below also help out simulation links below. We'd love to continue doing cool things like coming on site and talking to great leaders like max and Go and build the future everyone manifest your destiny into the world. Go build go create. We love you so much And dose up on love. Take care. See you soon That's it. That's it. Cool. That's how we do. Thanks, man