 Welcome to Reader Syndicate 3.0, the next evolution of the look into counterculture that is Canada. My name is Matthew, owner of Riot Seeds, and this started as a one-man mission for strain history and breeding science. Over time, it's evolved into something bigger, better, and more of a team effort. We will be joined by members of the Cannaluminati and other friends throughout the seasons to hear their takes on grow techniques, breeding science, strain history, and more. Our mission is to combat the narrative that corporate cannabis and seed posters are obfuscating for their own financial benefit. Welcome to the Underground. We are The Syndicate. Welcome to Reader Syndicate. I'm Matthew with my co-host, Thousand Folds. Today we're here with a very good friend of mine, Subrob, from Seed Trip. Seed Trip Seeds. I get, do we say Seed Trip Seeds? Seed Trip Seeds? Trip is just Seed Trip. Just Seed Trip. All right, Thousand, take it away. Yeah, so the first thing I wanted to ask is actually where does the name Subrob come from? That came from around 2000, I think. I was going on a road trip. I'd settled in San Diego. I was going on a road trip. I had no idea how the internet worked at that time, and I was going on a road trip, so my girlfriend wanted me to set up an email and try to rob a few variations of my name, and then I looked down. I was eating a sub sandwich, and I'm like, well, how about Subrob? From a sub sandwich? Yeah, that's literally where it came from. Until a few years later, when I learned how to Google, and I googled Subrob, and a whole different Subrob came up under images, some dude in leather who was submissive. Sweet, sweet, submissive Rob. So the first chance I got it, I changed to Seed Trip. Yeah, I like submissive Rob better though. Good for them, but it just wasn't my trip. I didn't think about the submissive thing at all. I was thinking Subrob less than Rob, which I thought was really funny. Well, you know, I was thinking with that idea, but now it was literally a sub sandwich. Submarina in specific for those. Oh, shit. That's right. Yeah. That's good shit too. That's funny, dude. That's hilarious. Okay, so. Go ahead, 1000. No, I was going to say, so you're saying that was around 2000. Were you growing then? Yeah, I started growing full time in the early mid 90s in Portland. I had gone home for the first time to Alaska to work. And I went ahead and grabbed Old Blueberry, the poem that it's been floating around Delta since the early 80s at least. Yeah. Down to Portland and started growing full time down there. So when you start, you mentioned Alaska, let's start there, if we can. So in Alaska, during your years growing up there, you mentioned earlier that it was more legal in Alaska than it was the rest of the states. What kind of stuff were you seeing when you first started smoking? Well, nothing really had names back then, at least not more. We had some names just to differentiate the growers like Bruce's Halloween Bud, you know, Mike's Green Bud, you know, shit like that. And of course, Blueberry. Blueberry was the first one that ever had just the specific moniker that I came across. Yeah. That was pretty self-evident. Why? I mean, that's crazy cut. Still going evidently. Yeah. Is it referring to Old Blue? Old Blue Alaska Blue. That's right. I was watching one of the podcasts last year and I was in the live chat and somebody, hopefully he's watching, he or she is watching now, mentioned they were from North Pole, which is right up the road by Alaska Standards Delta. Yeah. And he asked where I was from when I mentioned I was from the interior and I said Delta and the first thing he did was type in a few Blueberry emojis. Oh, wow. That's 2022. The first time I smoked that cut was probably 82. So 40 years later, the same cut is still synonymous with my hometown. So that predates DJ Shortby quite a bit. Probably. But I mean, I personally have always thought just like Skunk that you could find Blueberry in very Afghan sea lines. Yeah. No, it makes sense. It makes sense. It's just so cool to see something like that back then. What's that? It's so cool to know that there was something like that back then that was prevalent and called Blueberry at the time because of its sense. Yeah. I mean, I was in high school when I first scored Blueberry, it was probably freshman or sophomore year. So that would have been 84 or 85. And the people I got it from talked about it like it had been around for a while. So. That's wild. I don't know. When did he start his Blueberry life? I know he first started selling it in mid 90s. So selling it. But God knows what, you know, I don't know how long ago he worked it and let stuff out or clones out. But who knows on that, to be honest. Yeah. And I have no doubt. I don't remember seeing when did the seed catalog start showing up in high times? 85 was the first time. I want to say that was, I want to say that was the one where they were putting like Afghani one, Afghani two from Sam the skunk band that quick little list of skunk one and stuff like that. I don't know where anybody would have gotten any commercial seed in the interior of Alaska in the early 80s. You know, we had lots of seeds. There was a lot. There was a lot of travelers in Alaska. Same kind of hippie, expat, veteran, angry, crazy motherfuckers who wanted to go visit Afghanistan in India. You know, Alaska was also on their itinerary. You know, I mean, it's not a place. A good place to go get lost, not be found. And no shortage of seeds when I was growing up, but clones really took hold in the mid 80s. Yeah. Around where I was from, especially blueberry. What, when did you first see Matt Newska Valley Thunderfuck show up? Well, going back to strain names, nothing really had a strain name back then. Yeah, everything that came from the Valley and I'm sure not just the Valley being Matt Newska Valley. Yeah. Matt Newska Valley probably Anchorage and Palmer and Austin. Probably everything was called Matt Newska Thunderfuck, especially during the summer when tourists around. Oh, I bet. I bet. But, you know, other people have commented on some of my posts and threads that they've never smoked the same Thunderfuck. Yeah. I have commented that they've never smoked the same Thunderfuck twice. Yeah. That makes sense. I wonder why it took hold though. Any idea? Look, man, skunk, when did skunk number one become a strength? 78. Okay. Well, that that nips that argument in the bud right there because I was going to say skunk was a term before skunk number one. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now, everywhere I lived, whether it was Oregon, Alaska, California, and this is all pre-internet, everybody used the term skunk. You know, Mallory Wilde, there's 50 different strains named Mallory Wilde. Absolutely. That is the real deal MTF or the real deal Mallory Wilde. But once people start using the name, you know, fast forward 20 years later, who's to say what is what? Yeah, right? It's lost in the mix. People didn't trade strains a lot back then. There were certain small groups that you were basically, well, in my situation, it was it was who your parents knew. Yeah. Yeah. Now that's where you got to cut if you got to cut it all. So I just, I don't think MTF has been a strain specific name since probably the 80s. Yeah. Every grower in the valley, and I used to go down, I lived in Anchorage for a couple years and which is close to the valley. And the friends I knew who grew down in that area were out in Matanuska Valley. Everything was Matanuska Valley, everything. Mark, I don't sweat it because if somebody gets a cut from Alaska, it's worth, you know, making a hybrid out of or a polyhybrid out of. It's pretty good. It's probably a pretty damn good cut. Yeah. I never had bad lead until I got to Humboldt for college. You leave it to California to leave that impression, right? Yeah. I also had some of the motherfucking best pot I'd ever smoked in my life in Humboldt, but I'd never had bad weed in Alaska. Did a lot of Mexican brickweed make it up to Alaska too? Wow. I didn't experience that until I moved to, I might have seen some in Humboldt. But when I moved to New Mexico, it was my first real experience with Mexican brickweed. That's not even that long ago, right? I take it back. I used to spend the summers in California. My parents were from Humboldt and one of their, my paternal grandparents moved from McKinleyville to Sanford, to the Bay Area, because he worked for, so I used to score weed with my friend Matt in San Francisco. And yeah, I remember getting brickweed then too, so in my teens. Were your parents growers? Or were they into that scene at all? Smoking at least? Well, my dad smoked whenever his friends came over, or he went over there, or they were working, or there's a lot of partying in Alaska, you know, there's... Yeah, imagine so. Yeah. And they also take work very serious, because a lot of the work you can only get done during the summer. So the summers with all of our parents were a matter of working 16 to 18 hours a day when you snatched a few joints from their stash. Yeah, right? You know. Yeah. So you got a thousand questions you want to get in. I was actually more curious about what life was like for you back then, and like how you, you know, how you gravitated towards the plant and all of that. Well, it was... I'll tell you what really got me into weed. The first, the first stuff I got into, I think my first true love in the drug category was probably LSD. I loved acid. As far back as, you know, I tripped the first, I started, I don't know, fifth grade, sixth grade. You know, by sixth grade, I had enough treatment for what I was doing. And I also grew up in an environment where we didn't have TV, we didn't have electricity for a lot of it. So I read a lot, and my dad had a lot of counterculture books. So I really got into everything from the... There were the blacked out hippies on the bus that began the whole hippie movement, to the grateful dead, to Mary Cranksters, you know. And so there was a lot of mention of pianos. But for the most part, I viewed pot as something to come down off of LSD or mushrooms or hanging or all those, all that speed we had in the 80s, black beauties, you know. Yeah, right. Whatever we used to get through the school day. And that's what it was for. It didn't really become something I was really passionate about until I was in either sophomore year or junior year of high school. I was assigned to write a story about the war on drugs, because remember this mid 80s? Yeah. Couldn't escape the war on drugs propaganda. And I got assigned to write a paper. I don't know if it was journalism or if it was just some sort of writing class on the war on drugs, specifically campus. Yeah. And what I used to do for my school work is in the library, we had these, they were like encyclopedias. I think they were called the SIRS issues, S-I-R-S. Okay. Something along those lines. And basically, they would address the subject and they would present pro-con, pro-side and con-side. And they would back up each side with all the evidence that they could find while they were assembling the encyclopedia. And so I went and I started reading. You know, you start with the discovery of Delta THC-9, whatever it is in Israel at a university. And then I read all the pro-sides. And then I read the con-side for legalization of cannabis. And that's where I learned about the DEA schedule, you know, schedule one through four. And within 20 minutes, within a half an hour, a 15 year old kid in the mid 80s, you know, no internet, no outside interviews, just two bucks figured out that cannabis being illegal was, was bullshit. Yeah. To be a schedule one narcotic, you must have no medicinal uses. Well, the guy who discovered and labeled Delta 9 THC also noted like the first experiment he did was on what was cataracts. Yeah, glaucoma or something like that. Yeah, swelling of the optic nerve and how cannabis had the medicinal effect of shrinkage of the nerve back down. Not to mention all the bro science from all the hippies that, you know, were still in their 30s at the time. Yeah. And it was really shocking to me. That was my first real moment of, wow, the government is pulling one over on us. And that led to, you know, the industry behind the war on drugs. You know, in hindsight, it's tough to remember when I discovered what phase of the industry of the war on cannabis and who was making money off of it and where and how much privatized, you know, prison industry and on and on and on. But as hard as it is now in hindsight to remember the exact timeline of discovering those things, I'll never forget that day in the library when I was 14 or 15 going, wait a minute, this does not add up. And at that point, that's when, you know, a cannabis activist was born in me. Yeah, no, makes sense. It's always been something that, you know, our parents and our parents friends and our teachers and our future teachers and that was something for them. That was old man shit. Give me a couple squares of acid, a 40 of malt liquor, right? Reds and a joint for tomorrow morning and I was good. Yeah, yeah. I had, you know, I had, I feel stories down. I tend to ramble, especially when on the side. That's good. No, that's that I had a similar experience growing up like weed was always around, but it was always like, it wasn't a drug to us. Like we were into drugs. And that was like, okay, yeah, we'll smoke weed, but it was to, you know, come down off this or in the meantime of getting this or that. It was always just kind of there and it took a long time for me to find the same passion that I have now. It's similar to your story. Yeah, I probably a lot of people, you know, probably came into it. Now, once that happened, and once I got a little older and started meeting the actual growers instead of their kids, you know, and talking about cannabis while we sat around smoking, it got more interesting and more interesting. And then as I was introduced to more strains, that really piqued me. But even when I started in the mid 90s, when I started growing just full on full time, it would, we had one strength and I was blueberry. That was it. We didn't give it to anybody. You know, our closest friends the first couple of years had no idea we were the ones who were growing this killer weed. Yeah. It was so blue. I'm Matt, I know you're a strength. This is how blue, old blue is from Delta. A lot of people would travel together during the winter. A lot of us would work up their seasonal, you know, firefighting, working out in the woods with geologists, exploratory geologists, looking at gold mines, shit like that. And then go wherever we wanted in the winter. Some of them go snowboarding, you know, in Utah or wherever. And so this one winter, three people from Delta came with me down to Portland to where I had my established circle friends. And one of them was the guy who gave me the blueberry cut. His stepped out was the guy who gave me the blueberry cut. So Bill knew that I had spent the previous winter growing blueberry in Portland. He went back home, worked, Billy came with us. And my partners already had the blueberry going when we got back. So the first thing we did when I got there, we had to fix the ventilation on the roof. And I said, Bill, come on up with me. I just got to fix the ventilation for the grow room. And we smoked a joint of blueberry. Climbed up the ladder went, started fixing the ventilation from our flower chamber. And Billy looks around and goes, ooh, one of your neighbors is baking blueberry muffins. How high are you? It was crazy. I've seen so many blues DJs. You know, I've seen so many blues from them. And none of them are close to what that blueberry was, which is what old dude says about every old strain, you know, but absolutely true. People, every place that clone has been, people still tell stories about that. There was a clone that floated around Oregon as well. I don't, it's old and it's also called old blue. And it's also maybe not connected to DJ short as well. You know, it could be, it could be things did not end well in Portland for a group of us because there was other drugs still involved. And it's possible the one guy besides me who had access to it, could have let it go. I mean, yeah, this day he's still on the needle. So he hasn't. So I gotta judge his trustworthiness. Yeah, for sure. You know, so I don't know, it's very possible, but there was, there was a couple blueberries in Oregon at the same time. Yeah, that makes sense. A bunch of hippies. Yeah. And I had no idea if it had survived or not until past year when my sister got ahold of my childhood best friend, his mother on Facebook, and they put the two of us in touch. And I sent him a picture of my flower room and he immediately sent back a picture is and it was just Captain Noel Blue. And I'm like, you're shitting me, dude. That's blue. Still growing it. And he's still got it. Yeah. Get that down this way. I want to see it. I want to see it. That was my immediate plan. Right now, I'm fucking around with those seeds I made and that guy from Wales sent back to me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, blueberry. Once I get those out of the way, I got to get no G out here in Mexico, man. It's killing. It is. Yeah, we can do that. That's easy enough. Yeah. Well, I've got it in work right now. I've got to get it done before summertime. Summer here, you can't ship clones out here. Yeah, it's the same here. It's the same like nightmarishly hot, nothing lives in mail. Yeah. So, you know, I'll probably talk to him. He said he's willing to send it down. So we'll see. I had some hesitancy at first. It's like, you know, sometimes what's Hall of Fame in your mind. Yeah, exactly over the years. And I'm old enough to know sometimes just leave that alone. Yeah. But then your show last year, when that viewer from North Pole started typing in blueberries, I was like, shit, if my hometown is still known for blueberry pot, then yeah, I'm pretty sure it'll hold up just fine. Yeah, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. I love all blueberries, even though I feel like I've got the best. I still want all of them. I need to experience all of them when I hear about especially the older ones that may not even be related or tangentially related or whatever the DJ's lines. I'll say this about DJ's lines. Every blue smell I ever smelled from them wasn't really blue. Now, that's not a giant pool of DJ shorts blueberry that I'm drawing from. I don't know how many samples from how many growers. I grew his stuff once. It was actually a cross. It was Dr. Atomic from Canada. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My DJ shorts blue and somebody's probably since he's an L five. Yep. It actually was not a bad cross. I bet. I remember those things pretty fondly, actually. There were some good blues that circulated Canada. There really were different selections done with DJ stuff, bigger selections done in Canada by different dudes up there, and they did pull out some really good blues, but they were few and far between and hard to get down here. They always seemed more fond of the fruit terpenes in Canada. Even before the forums, you could tell the Canadian seed companies they were all selling berries of various types. Yep. Yeah. So what was your first forum experience? Where did you first come into the forums tonight? Because I know you're technically retarded in some aspects. How did you end up on the forum so early? It was that same time period that I did the sub-robot hotmail or whatever it was. Yeah. When I came up with that, it was on that computer. It was really the first time I'd been on the computer. They'd been out, but I just I was busy. Yeah. I started looking for pot and the first two things I found were who was it who had heroin back in the day. Motor rebel and wood horse. That was like the first pot anything on the internet I ever found. I'm like, holy shit, this guy's selling seeds. Yeah. And then I overgrown right after that. Yeah. So what was your experience like there? I never, there was a point where I did register. I was super paranoid still back then. Sure. There was a time period when you didn't have to be registered to view everything on Overgirl. And at some point they made an upgrade where it was only limited access. So people all registered is like unregistered 1701. I was one of those unregistered guys for a little bit. But then around, when did I sign up at ICMAG? When did ICMAG start? That was in the 2000, right? 2007, 2006. I think it started in 2002 or 2003. Even earlier. Yeah. I registered in 2006. Okay. Something like that. And that was that was the coolest cannabis experience I ever had outside of the actual growing and smoking. Yeah, for sure. But that was high times, maybe a joke now. The fact that high times was pretty much my only source of information for a decade and a half. Shit. I mean, I think you look back some of those old high times. That magazine was not only respectable, as far as I'm concerned, they had Pulitzer worthy content back then that would have never been considered. Oh, yeah. But when the qualifications for what it takes to, you know, to qualify for awards like that, they had it. They had it all. I agree. Early high times was amazing. Some of the best, even some of the best strain reviews you could ever find, you know, back from our, are the connoisseur. They had cool punk rock stuff, too. Like they are very punk rock oriented in the 70s, which I thought was interesting. And metal. And metal. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't just the dead. You know, it wasn't just Led Zeppelin, the dead in the doors, bro. It was it was all all inclusive. Yeah, I enjoyed. I mean, that was like what I looked forward to most each month was high times mag coming out. You know, and you catch your dad playing through it and reading it. It was just it really conveyed that 60s and 70s outlaw culture, not just every culture. Oh, yeah, for sure. All the cocaine ads and shit, bro. All the cocaine ads all over the place in the old high times. Yeah. And I mean, they were writing about Ricky Ross before Ricky Ross got busted. Yeah. They were writing about the whole conspiracy of behind around Ricky Ross before before anybody else was they were a good man. So yeah, it was. I don't know. Were you concerned about your, you know, personal safety at all in this time? Like how did it feel to you? I'm sure it both felt like it must have felt empowering, but also like, you know, were you scared? When we got on, I see when I really started going at it in the form. Yeah. Yeah. By crock to 15, you know, and I didn't give a shit. It's like, come, come find me. You're, you're seeing everything I'm doing. Yeah. You know, pictures of every day. So if you think you're going to come find a warehouse behind me, no, I like my job too much. You know, here's my tents, you know. So I wasn't worried at that point at all. I was like, come get it. In California, I understood exactly where somebody with 25 or 30 flowering plants ranked on the list of shit that the locals or feds needed to get done and get busted. Yeah. In the early 2000s in California, if you were going growing 25 plants, nobody gave a shit. Exactly. That's how I felt too. So at that point, my paranoia almost completely disappeared. So when does, when does the sub-robs madness cut, the San Diego madness cut float through? What year is that? I started getting that in 1999. It wasn't a big San Diego cut. One guy had it. One grower, that was it. And he also bred it. It was, it was Oregon Big Bud crossed with an indica that he had. I started getting it from this kid. His, his girlfriend worked with mine and he came over and started selling me that. He also got bull rider P91 Betsy Hogs breath. He got every cap, every strain that came through San Diego, this 16 or 17 year old kid had access to. I never found out who it was. I never cared. You know, I wasn't trying to get a better deal. Just make sure I don't run out of weed. And then I started growing again. And this kid would always ask me about cannabis. He was always interested in cannabis and cannabis history. So when the guy who was selling him madness decided to retire and move back to humble, he said, I ain't taking this one with me. He was, he was old. I guess he was like. And he told, he told my friend, Hey man, you know, anybody who, who will take care of this phone and appreciate it. And he said, I got just a guy. And so he gave it to me. And that's still one of my favorite cuts, not the most potent. Yeah, it was, he wasn't going to knock any of the really well-known San Diego pets, you know, off the top of the mountain, except for in you. I've never had, I've never had a cut yielded like that. What was the term profile like on it, like the scent profile? It was a leathery, it was, it was in that leathery, you know, kind of swaying, new suede, new leather, you know, that smells sweet and very hard to describe, very hard. But it was definitely unique, tasted just like it smelled. And it had a good solid, good solid high. Yeah. That's interesting. Do you have any idea what it might have been crossed to? Like, with all your years of experience now looking back? Wouldn't have a guess. I've had other, I've had other strains that, that fit into that leathery, leather, tennis ball suede. Yeah. I think the perfect pearl cross that you sent me. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I'll do that a little bit. But it's not a profile that you see a lot, you know. Definitely not nowadays. It had like a, like an aftertaste too, which is always good cannabis strain. It had the, not the taste, but you know how SROM immediately evokes magchampa? Oh, yeah. Magchampa, this invokes the texture of cologne to me. Interesting. I mean, that's serially, not necessarily a specific scent, but just the after effects of cologne. Oh, you're doing fine. No, this is good. This is great. When did you first run into, let's go through a little list, P91, your experience? Well, I moved to San Diego, moved prominently to San Diego in 99. So it was everywhere. It was everywhere I happened to stumble into, I should say. Most of my friends in San Diego that I had made prior to moving there prominently weren't really smokers. They were all drinkers. But it isn't hard if you're out drinking to meet somebody in Ocean Beach. Oh, for sure. And once they get you a sack of P91, you don't lose that number. Yeah, right? No. The relationship. Yeah. So how about Hog's Breath? Same thing, man. I got that kid, that kid who basically became my pot dealer. He had access to everything pretty much as soon as I met him. That was, let's see, that was Jennifer. So yeah, it's like 2000. Yeah. You know, I mean, he just started every week, he'd bring me a selection. And then, you know, we didn't, not everybody had the frame of reference of strain names back then. Sure. So it wasn't, you know, your dealer didn't show up. So I got P91. Killer green butter right here. So I think P91, you know. So I don't know which was first, but I remember they all came from that one guy and he was only dealing for a couple years once I met him before he moved on to more lucrative things. Yeah. Oh yeah. So I think that my experience with all those San Diego strings pretty much started almost immediately. That's pretty cool. Sorry. I know, I know we've moved on from the P91, but I did want to ask because it's, it's a name and it's a cut that still floats around in the group. And I'd like to know like your impressions of it from back then. You know, how would you have described it? Well, it's the S1 that's still floating around. Yeah. Yes. Just the S1. Yeah. Well, you know, it was, I did a small experiment. I don't remember when I got the cut had to be probably, I don't know, 2003 or so. Yeah. I got the cut and I noticed something a specific effect that I got when, when I smoked it. So what I did was I had a few guys that I shared with that I hooked up and two or three in particular who did not know each other. You know, I gave them each a sack for feedback. I'm like anything specific, no matter how weird or how corny or how important, unimportant you might think it is, I just want to hear it. And again, they were separate. And all three of them came back to me with the same exact thing that I had noticed. And that was when I smoked P91, I slept better than any other time in my life. And I had the most intense dreams. That's interesting. And I hadn't even so much as hinted to any of the, actually, I think it was two guys. I had never said a word about it. It was what do they call it, a blind test. Yeah. And they both came back. And the only thing they had to say about it was the sleep effects, the dream effects. And as far as other thoughts, so that's the first thing that always comes to mind when I pick P91. Yeah. Tastes to me, I remember the taste, I remember the feel of the flowers, everything to mine, the term oily to me. Yeah. Very oily. Now that's not always a good, you know, that's not always a good quality, whether it be from hash making perspective to the strains I've tried that were oily on the flowers like that weren't that great or more CBD than they were THC. But 91s case, nah, it was everything was good. I've heard peanut oil or just straight associated. Yeah. But I'd say oily and good bedtime meds. Yeah, that's strong shit. Even the S1 kept that potency where like people compare it to chem D type potency stuff like that. I'm a big fan of S1s. And that that P91 S1 that who is it better? Yeah. insane when he posted or anybody. Yeah, that's a sick one. But yeah, that's cool. I was going to ask if yeah, exactly whether you whether you'd actually gotten to try the the S1 that floats around or if it's just something that you've seen from a distance. I haven't yet. I think that kind of popped up in San Diego after I'd already left. I've been out here a few years now. Yeah. Were you were you one of the people I think now I think it was grotech and someone else when someone claimed to have the original P91 and had a bunch of people show up to a collective and they're like, sorry, bro. Sorry, bro. And he got all mad at everyone. That wasn't grotech. I don't think that was grotech. Might have been someone else. So it wasn't grotech that popped up with a cut. Grotech was one of the people I think that went better went a few other people. I had to inform the duty didn't have what he thought. So you're talking relatively recent. Yeah. Yeah. In the past few years. I think that must have happened. And again, after after I left two or three years, two or three years ago. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still in touch with all those guys were on group threads and stuff like that. But I don't I don't really know anything about that. Let's talk about how you met some of those dudes on on San Diego's finest cuts. Like that's probably when I think of like the most seminal influential threads throughout all of ICMAG. That of course, that one jumps out to me because I was in San Diego for a long time and was kind of partial to that and some of the guys. But for you, like how did you all kind of form into a crew of sorts? It started with a guy. What was arts? Drag or or something like that. D. R. A. G. O. R. Drag. Yeah. He and I were talking about it and we said eight, you know, eight. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He said the communication expert had just, you know, started moving clones, selling clones. And we had got I've gotten some some other people that I could talk to 3DM through DMs have gotten some and we were and me and and drag or started talking about it. I said, hey, let's start a thread on on ICMAG that specifically this guy's hooking us up, man. By that time we'd flower. We'd been through a couple flower cycles with his cuts and they were they were insane. It was some of the legit dude. Yeah. So we said, let's start a thread showcasing everything that he's got and we'll advertise for him. Um, even though it's just California, you know, at least, yeah, and the thread started going. The same people started showing up every day. And at some point, you know, I used to I used to get every UFC that came on. Yeah. House. And I had at the time, what was big screen TV, you know, yeah, yeah. LCD LED. And so I invited some guys over for and my buddy who owned Submarina brought us a big six foot sub for everybody just chow down on. And we started getting together to watch every UFC fight and sample each other's wares, which, you know, started the network. You know, well, you grow this, you flower this. Yeah. I'll flower this so that, you know, you didn't have to flower. Remember, I've never had access to pets like this before. This was 2000 to end. Three 2004 or no, maybe no, probably a little later than that because we were already on ICMAG. So let's call it 06. Yeah. You know, I was still popping seeds in San Diego and growing until I got the madness cut. And then I met eight and hit the bullet and said, fuck it, I'm going to trust this dude. I'm going to buy cuts from somebody I'm not related to. Yeah. And I was blown away. I mean, I had, I had the eight at the time, four by four flower tents, and I had probably 35 moms. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean. One cut Rob, the 35 cut Rob. So yeah, so that's how it started. And then once you're sharing information like that, anonymously, you know, you just start going to the get-togethers at Rob's, watch the fights. And let me tell you, everybody was always trying to outdo everybody in the early times. We'd have the get-togethers. And even Gypsy warned us because we talked about it. He's like, Hey, man, have your get-togethers, but you got to be careful. You know, law enforcement is probably, you know, looking at the shit that left over paranoia from anybody over 30 at the time. And we're like prop 15, prop two 15, go fuck yourself. We're done with that shit. And that's how that's how it started, man. And so everybody would come over to my house and everybody would bring like an ounce of flour, big chunks of hash, bubble hash, you know, edibles. And everybody would leave after like four hours and I would stumble down into my kitchen the next morning and on the dining room table is like, you know, five grand worth of weed, thousands of edibles. I'm like, what the fuck? And it happened every time and the group was slowly growing. And I would tell people, Hey, if you see it on this table, take it on your way out. You know, don't be a lot of weed. Everybody was still polite and getting to know each other. So I ended up with so much more than I could ever smoke. So many strings so fast through that group. And that that's true. I mean, we're all still friends. Yeah, you know, nobody in that group ever got busted. Nobody, you know, no rat, no one ever ratted. That's good. People still in touch. People have made it in legal weed. Others have made it in black market. Both, you know. Yeah, yeah, that's right. People who were part of that, you know, that original group, KRD, he's killing it as he always has. Sean Kron, you know what I mean, Grace. McCauley. Yeah. Yeah, it turned out to be a really great group of growers and always learned, man. You went on that thread back in the day and you started spouting some bullshit, you'd get verbal slapped down by everybody in there. Oh yeah. Yeah. We did it ourselves. We'd go out and do it. You know who started that after me was a big, big herb tree. Do you remember him? No. What was his name? Big herb tree. Big herb tree, nah. He's the one who started us on that path of brutal honesty and criticism. And that's one of the good things, you know. Yeah. At least I learned so much from being on that thread. You know what's funny? I didn't really realize how influential Ape was in the thread. I knew he was part of it. I didn't realize how influential he was in that group because it's funny because he was influential on me as well. He really, really hooked me up early on with Clones. You know, I didn't understand how deep of access I was given immediately as I got into San Diego and it was just drastically different than any other city I've been to like that. It was just like, bam, bam, everything's legit from the get-go. It was lucky. Lucky stuff. Well, it's word would come down there too. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, they were partners, weren't they? Probably at some point or another. All the shit that guy gets, you know what? The only thing I have, the only dealings I ever had was getting swerve cuts. And again, from where I came from to where I ended up in SoCal in the early 2000s with Clone Trader, it's okay in my book, man. Oh man. Yeah. He's something else to me. I have my different experiences. Yeah. Yeah. See, I've never had a bad experience. He's not even that good of a kisser, bro. Yeah. With the pictures of his plants in high times. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, man, I love those Clone Venors. Wick 650. Yeah, Wick 650. He was a part of Cali Connection 2, I think, or he was involved with getting swerve his early cuts. Yeah. Yeah. And those guys were all involved with each other at some point. Yeah. Yeah. It was just like us splitting up, flowering duties for new clones amongst the San Diego Finest guys. I'm sure those guys are like, hey, man, if you'll take OG over to San Bernardino for me, I'll drop GDP off in the Bay for you. I'm sure there will be things like that. So I just looked at the thread in it. The first one is 2008. I also thought that I could ask you about some of the other cuts that were around sourdub. Sourdubble. My favorite plant, small time. Yeah. That's a damn good cut, dude. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I've had it coming back with the OG that I've got coming. I've got OG. I've got, you know what? I don't even give a shit what label comes with an OG. But anyway, I'm wandering off your path again, 1000. So Sourdubble, yes. The taste is incredible. It's a very fast plant to grow. The only plant that I take early. I take everything till it's done. I let it finish. It's rare. It doesn't go 70 days. Sourdubble is not done at 62, 63 days, but that's as far as I think. Because the terpenes start going like this. Yeah. Still great when you take 70 when it's finished, but you don't get any higher. The depth of high doesn't change anything in two weeks, or like the last two weeks or less. It's a great breeding stream, too. Yeah. Remind me what it's lineage is, guys. It was Sourdub. Sourdubble was a sourdubble from Bog across two. And there's some debate on whether it was NYCD. I don't think it was NYCD because it has a lot of sour diesel-type notes in it. So I'm pretty sure it was Resdog Sour Diesel IBL. Pretty sure. That's why there's confusion, because Resrat had them both. Yes, that's right. And I'll tell you, I've gone back and forth. And so has Gray School. So has Sean Cron. So has everybody who's been growing her on and off since she came to be. There are times when you really got her dialed in that a sour grapefruit, like red grapefruit smell is in there. And with grown NYCD, that's one of the things she was known for. And I've smelled it. But on the other hand, the sour that you smell is so traditionally, and I heard there's no sour diesel in NYCD. There's not. So there's not. But in Sourdubble, there is a sour, no doubt about it, that goes back to being from that original sour diesel gene pool. I agree. Yeah. I mean, I've got it to go super skunky. I don't really hear people talk about that much with it, but I've got it to go super, super skunky to where it was just like right in that skunky zone with sour in that sour dub. It was gnarly. Yeah. Sour dub is a great plant. The official story, there's lots of variations out there. The story is, Bog gave a handful of seeds at a NorCal music festival at some point to a gangster, to a gaming member. He did not know that some big dude at a music fest, and Bog was feeling it, and he said, it'll be the best pot you've ever smoked. The dude grew it. It became a staple of that crew. Our boy Gray Skull knew one of the guys in that crew, and he gave it to Gray Skull and said, hey, man, you've got to change the name. Nobody can know that you have this plant. Yeah. Like hash plant, but cash, because they were just serious money off this plant. So Gray Skull gave it to a couple of us in Circle, whoever wasn't full at the time of all the strains they could handle, and we started growing it, and by the first harvest, everybody was making room for it. Everybody made room for sour double. We said, we've got to come up with a name if we're going to talk about this online, because that's the one stipulation that Gray has to stick with, is not to call it cash plant. At one point, Bog was consulted, and he said, I'd just call it double sour. I was like, that's good enough for me. Gray Skull said, that's good enough for me. Then one of the younger dudes who was always thinking, he was probably 15 years my junior, and he kind of knew what was coming up with social media, hadn't really started yet, but the younger you know, let's put something more marketable than double sour. And he suggested sour double instead of double sour, because the S came before the D, and he said it'll always be associated with seeing Diego now. Oh, that's smart. And we all took a vote and sour double one, so that's why it's called sour double. Yeah, that wasn't, you know, I remember when I first got the cut, I dropped it immediately without flying, because I was like, oh, this sounds boring, it would just be like another sour bubble. You know, I really regretted that, because I could have had it much earlier on, you know, and ran through with it. Yeah, that was, that's crazy weed. I mean, I still grow it. Yeah, I'm waiting to pop some of those skank dogs, we'll get into that later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get into it now. Yeah, these are the crosses that you just released. It was, I got double specifically, because I wanted to reverse it, specifically, I wanted to cross SSH and sour double. Yeah, ever since I heard about S S S D H, yeah, yeah, forums, I just thought that would be a great merging of, of terpies, of smell, of tastes. So I got the SSH back, I got the double back from gray. Let's talk real quick. Let me cut you off. Let's talk about the SSH, the history behind it real quick. Yeah, it's pretty commonly referred to as 98 SSH now. Yeah. I think crazy is calling another one 97. I think the saw cut maybe. Oh, yeah, yeah, old SOG 97. Yeah. So when I'm talking about the SSH, the 98 SSH, when that cut came to me and Sean from a guy in Canada, when he gave us the cut, among other cuts, he told us it was the one that won the cup in 98, the high times Canada's cup. So, you know, that we took that at every strain, this guy gave us was exactly what it was. The guy knew people. So I thought there was an instance that that's what it was. The first time I heard different was not so, pointing out when he's every time he saw pictures of it and, and heard it being harvested the day 65, day 70, the latest, and being done, he's like, you know, that doesn't sound like tonight or look like the 1998 cup winning cut of SSH. And from everything that he said, and he sent some pictures, I immediately stopped calling it the cup winning cup. Yeah, sort of crazy. I think more people know about that cut from crazy composer than anyone else. Yeah, a bunch of it. Yeah. And you immediately, you know, after talking to not so, I noticed he also started calling it 98. And I think that's kind of become the common monitor of that cut. So that three, we got it from Canada. We were told it was Shanti's personal cut. I will say this about that cut. I hit Shanti up on Mr. Nice Alarms said, Hey, man, I just got 98 supposedly I just got 98 cup winning cut from a guy in Canada. And Shanti hit me back immediately and said, well, did it come with a number? I said, it did not. He says, if that cut is given out to anybody, the person giving it to them must give them the number, you know, whatever the number was, maybe it was trade position when Shanti was growing up last years, what it was, but it did not come with the number. So I read the email, I said, okay, cool. You know, we'll see. We'll see what it's like. Like 15 minutes later, I got a call from the guy in Canada who said, Hey, man, I just got a call from Scott or Scott. Yeah, I just got Scott that I'm handing out his cut. So the guy who gave it to me never retracted that it was the cup winning cut, but it seems to me that there was a break in the communication between Shanti and this store. Yeah, yeah. Maybe they just had a mixed up. I'll tell you this, it's an excellent cut. It is a everything that I used to read about Super Silver Hayes in Mark Emery's Seed catalog or Seed catalog, it fits that description to it. And it's fast and it's effortless. It's just it grows itself. Just give it the bare minimum of what it needs. And you're going to get a big, gorgeous plant SSH. What do you think about scent profile? What's that? What's the scent profile on that one? It's got the lemon. It's got that cedar haze to me. Those would be the three things I would describe. But I've never been very good at descriptions. I've always relied on the other guys in SDF for that. But cedar haze lemon I think is a pretty good summation. Yeah, that sounds right. I got tired of it. I don't know if it's because I grew so much of it there before I left. I mean, you walk into a room full of that stuff, and it's drowning out other stinkers. Wow. It was either that or I smoked a lot of it. And most of what me and my business partner were smoking at the time was Ken and OG. You got to be pretty stout to keep up with Ken's and the OG's. And I've never been that much of a sativa guy. But to me, it definitely leans sativa. But the true sativa heads will tell you it's too indica. It's short flowering, pretty thick flowers of good yields. A nice affy, a nice indica sativa mix. Yeah, like a good super silver hay should be. I don't know, five skunk one haze. So yeah, one of the ways we judged bud was by how much we had to smoke to get through the Raiders game. Because the Raiders for a few seasons were pretty intolerable. And we had to smoke a lot of SSH to get through some of those Raider games. So we pretty much you know, gee, for the bleaker of the years there. That's funny. So in summation, that's the cut that you used in Cross to a reversed sourdough, right? Versed the sourdough, your juice is the shit, I'll say it. I mean, I'm still scraping pollen off the surfaces. It's actually, ironically, that cross is not at all what I want. I have found that I was looking for in that cross. But what I found was if you like Super Silver Hayes, which seems everybody besides me and my buddy, you know, the Super Silver Hayes, then what you'll find in two thirds of the plants will be Super Silver Hayes, but a little bit fatter and a little bit more body in the stone. So it was an improvement. But the ones that I'm really interested in is the one out of three that is what I'd describe it as the 90s seed catalog stock photo of Hayes hybrid. If they're longer flowering 80 to 90 days, big leaves, don't like small containers at all, just put them in big one. But the flowers that came from those things are pretty insane. I smoke nothing but that phenol of SSH for four months. Yeah, I bet. You find a special kind of special when you're not used to really good seedless, which I'm not, you know, physiology or what, but he's different. This thing blew my mind. I really enjoyed it. And when I pop more of those seeds, I'll be looking for those things. But the SSH phenols that came out of it are so freaking good. The hash that I made, the hash just falls off of it. And that's why I sent those ones in. You know, I haven't told you in years, but after a year, year and a half, the reports I've gotten back from any other growers, it's like, okay, that's what I'm just going to sit on these seeds along with all the other ones in my freezer. So yeah, man, if you like SSH, if you are still in one of those areas where you cannot get clones, that's how I would grade these seeds is you want to try SSH for the first time. These seeds are a great way, but you're not going to find, I don't think from all the reports I've gotten back, I don't think you're going to find any sour in SSH sourdough. So if you're looking for sour, then you look at one of the other hybrids. Alright, let's talk about skank dog. That's going to be that. That's where you're going to find sour. Alright, but let's talk about the, is it a skunk dog S1 that you used? It's a skunk dog S1 that I kept for a few rounds. I went into this phase where I was going to take it back to the 90s European growing scene where everybody just grew from seed, didn't keep clones, just keep it moving, exploring all the time. And so I ended up getting rid of that S1 and I really wish I had because that is a plant that I actually enjoyed growing more than skunk dog. And if you followed anything I've done online from the forums, Instagram, you know, I love my own skunk dog. I think it's one of the greatest hybrids of all time. I love the taste. It took me years before I reached that point where I got sick of it and stopped hoping it for a while because it's so specifically stinky. Anyway, move to the S1. The word that came to mind, especially when I grew it, I grew three of them outdoors along with a couple orange juice bud crosses from OB. Oh yeah, also, yeah. Five or six plants out there and you could smell them for blocks here in the desert in the summer. It was crazy. I really expected the cops to show up and new medical, you know, at the time, new recreational grower loss. And I hit that with sourdouble and everything that I have smelled from that has been, you know, there are strains that can make your mouth water. Yeah. I used the term strain today after all the peripheral yesterday online about using strain. Just somebody trying to make his bones arguing with Chimera or Son. Where was this Instagram? What's that? Is this on Instagram? Where was this on Instagram? Yeah. And I don't even know what started it because I don't follow the dude who started it. But I'm pretty sure it went back to the old strand versus strain. And coltomar. Phenotype. We know. But everything I just described about the last 30 years of my growing, we didn't have medical textbooks that we were studying out of it. It was 100% gross science. So I'll say strain. I'll say pheno. And all the kids can kiss my ass. That's what's up. So skunk dog. Yeah. What was in skunk dog? I can't remember off the top of my head. Skunk dog to the best of my knowledge. I've probably text Sean 50 times over the years asking them. And if I finally remember right, I know it's a Kennedy bag seat. And I think it's crossed to a skunk from the island of Molokai. So Molokai's father, I believe, crossed with a chem of some sort bag seat. Gotcha. Yes, ones that I grew, including the one I kept. The chem is obvious. I'll never question that. It looked like chem growing, except for it kept if you've ever grown skunk dog, it's got some really weird branching that it really goes crazy on side branching. So the plants and I think I've got some picks up on Instagram. From when I grew them outdoors, it looks like chem with the exact same branching from skunk dog. And that's, that's when I first started using the descriptor skank, because it just skank. And then when you double the examples I've seen and smelled so far, I would say that if if I grew some of these hybrids, some of the skank dog out in 1990, everybody I would have sold it as skunk. I would have been called, it would have been referred to as skunk by everybody who smoked it, or smelled it, or was in the room with somebody who had a bag of it in their pocket. It is skunk is the best descriptor. Yeah, but I couldn't call it dog. So I call it skank dog. Yeah, I like it. I like that name anyways. Really, really brought out, amplified the chem and added that sweetness to it. I'm getting ready to pop some more. As soon as these dadmies are cleared, I'm popping more of those. I cannot wait to try some of that again. I found a tray, a trend bin with probably a half ounce. You know what? I might still actually have it. It's still over there. Maybe a half ounce of seeded bud. So it was the, it was the skunk dog flower with the seeds from the sour double palm. Oh yeah. Yeah. This is probably my tent for over a year, uncovered. It's dry right now. But when I found it and I just kind of crumpled a few seeds out of a flower, the smell hit me and I was like, holy shit. If I had to pick just one strain right now to pop seeds of out of everything in my collection, it would be, it would be more of the skank dogs. That's awesome. That sounds really good. And we talked about on the show, what I refer to is like the super skunk double up. Like if a camera sour, something was super skunk in it is then crossed to something else with sour or cam in it. They tend to align and make skunky fucking shit almost every single time. And it's gnarly. And it's predictable. Another good example of that was Canorado before he started selling seeds. He was working, he was doing cross and he did a sour double reversal. I remember. And he hit I think every clone that Colorado had. He sure did. I think he collected everything. And he wanted to send great. He wanted to send great school, a 10 pack of each one of those sour double crosses to thank him for releasing sour double. So Sean told him at the time, and I don't mess with post office, but it hit up Rob. He'll probably do it. And I said, hell yeah, here's my address. Yeah. So he doubled up every pack and sent me in great school, a pack of everything he'd done from Durbin to OGs to all that. And I pop, I popped either one seed or three seeds of Ken D. It was sour double reverse on. And there was a keeper, whether it was the one seed pop or the three seed pop. I can't remember which one, but the plan I ended up with smelled like East Coast sour diesel on steroid. Yeah. Makes sense. Bridging a little cat that I got back and I think oh nine. It had that kind of sour diesel smell, not even a little bit watered down. And I was really surprised by that smell. Yeah. Well, it makes sense though. Yeah. I remember when he did that. Yeah. I grew those seeds for years. I've never explored any gene pool. Like I've explored the sour double gene pool all because Kanarado wanted to hook Gray School up. So that's pretty cool. Yeah. He's a cool dude. He's always been super cool to me too. I like him a lot. The white sour dub is another cat which Sean still grows in San Diego. That was the other one of them was a one seed pop. One was three seed pop. And I got a keeper cut from each one of those. One was the white sour double. I love that. Is it called Wubble? The cat that I kept, we just called white sour double. Okay. Sean could be calling something else, especially with the whole, with the company, maybe, or maybe somebody else kept a cut too, or maybe Kanarado called it that. But yeah, I don't know. That's like sour dub cream. Yeah, I bet, dude. Smooth base comes around on it. Did you get to grow any GG4 sour double? No. I wonder how that one would be. That would be pretty interesting. I mean, at Cross, if you get a little more sour, to me, the one thing that GG4 kind of lacked was a distinct flavor. Yeah. And maybe that was a little bit jaded by the fact that everybody who had sour double at that time was still growing sour double when Don started giving out cuts. Yeah. It's easier to grow. It yields more than sour dub. But when you're comparing the two, I mean, I never understood why somebody would take GG4 over sour double. And I had that same point of view. Like when GG4 came out, I already had sour dubs. So I wasn't really interested in growing GG4 the first decade of it being out. Had no interest in it at all. It ended up being a pretty good breeder though. Can you guys help me out here? What's the overlap in terms of their genetics? What would you compare them? I guess it's like sour dubs a part of it. GG4 came out right. What's that? It didn't grow. That's what it was, right? It was sour double hit with mystery pollen. It was like they said sour dub, chocolate tie, chemsis. That's right. Yeah. I don't know which one came and hit which or reversed or where they even found chemsis to hit it. It was interesting and this brings it back to the SDF threads. It was interesting watching the beginning of Gorilla Blue number four because on the forums, you can see the blueprint for the modern hyping of a string. The blueprint was burner online with cookies. I remember the beginning of Gorilla Blue number four. Josie wasn't a marketing machine. He wasn't really caring that much. It was another one or two members specifically who kind of talked him and said, hey man, you've got something here in today's legal world. You don't just let something like this go for nothing. You can make money off of this. I'm pretty sure those posts would still be up on one of the SDF threads, probably the second one. It was really interesting watching people make suggestions. Say you should do this, you should do that. So it was kind of interesting watching the beginning of cannabis marketing from on mark of cookies or and it was just a way of the way it was done prior to burner doing this thing with cookies. The guys who'd been smoking the longest would tell the young guys, this is what you want to smoke. This is the shit. Your friends would tell you, hey man, I just found this. This is what you want. But that turned around with cookies. Cookies to hype came before the flower for 90% of the people who were hyping. You're on your second grow of all time. You're in the beginners forum and you're telling me the cookies is the best pot in the history of cannabis. So I was always getting a little grouchy back then online. I talked a lot of shit, don't understand, especially with grill glue number four, still think it's over. But if people enjoy it, who gives a shit? Yeah. But I seem like I'm the only person I know who can't stand hash plant 13 things like that. So I do miss the back and forth. I do miss people being able to criticize each other without 130,000 people sliding into your fucking DMs telling me, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah, they were. I tended to get banned from every forum because of my fucking mouth. But you know, it is what it is. Tending all of this to a coherent format for your show. Yeah. It'll be interesting. I also want to ask about the A dub and whether that has any relation or is that just a coincidence with the name A dub is sour double hit with alien. The alien dog v2 or v1. Something that OB did with alien dog. Gotcha. Yeah, it's probably the v1 that if it was obs. Or no, no, you know what? I think it was grow tech and this other dude who came on to it. Yeah, fairly early. I'm having trouble remembering his name. I'm kind of embarrassed about that. It was a project they did. And some of the people who got the seeds, KRD was one of them. And KRD found A dub and he was just listed them. There was like A dub, A dub, C dub, etc. And the ones that were kept were A dub, O dub, and something else. So it's sour double hit with alien dog. Yeah. And that's a very specific type plant also. It's got a unique high, the way I interpret it. That's like smoking yourself into a bubble. I can't tell you how many days I was working in the garden and I would smoke A dub and I would find myself wandering like the stereotype from the 80s. Like, what am I doing? What was I mixing? I did halfway and hadn't finished yet. And something right beside it on the workbench, that should just put you into A, another state of B. That's like smoking concentrates. I don't buy into all the 30% this, 28% this, 30% this. But when people were first starting to get things tested, I think that was the second cut that I saw come up with a 30% reading. Yeah. Which, you know, the reason I don't put any stock into it is, you know, those are adjustable. It's all about where the machine is balanced at. Now, there are uses for it, of course, you know, especially in reading and selecting phenotypes and stuff like that. But that's another thing I remember about A dub was I think that was the second time behind Bruce Banner that anybody dared to say, I got 30% DHC. Yeah. About getting laughed at. And it's the one that made me believe, hey, I don't know if it's 30, but it's definitely, yeah, it's something up in there. Yeah, it was a great strain. How about, okay, me and you've talked about it a bunch, but I don't think most people outside of a few of us really know about it, the Dabney Blue. Dabney Blue was something Sean had more experience with. But he brought over some of the Dabney Afghani Kush. Yeah. Very blue. That's like, that's near I've smelled besides old blue from Alaska. That was a deep blue, like it was, it was good. And that was cross. So I don't know what the original Dabney Blue was like, which is also from Oregon. Yeah, yeah, it's from the, remember, I got a hold of the guy or he got a hold of me somehow. Yeah, he was like mini frisbee golf course name. Yeah. Never got the original back though. Oh wait, no, I take that back. It is in the circle. It is. I don't know if I don't know if I'm ever allowed to touch it yet, but we'll see. Well, one of the crosses I made with that was East Coast sour Dabney. Yeah, shot over some pollen. He had a male male Dabney Blue Afghani Kush. He brought over some pollen to my tent and hit East Coast sour diesel with it. And I made a bunch of those seeds. We use a lot of that pollen on the East Coast sour diesel and we hit a few other things with the purple joy, which was a purple plant that was kind of purple plant that I've done. I mean, that deep perfumey Afghani. It was in Nepalese Afghani hybrid, if I remember correctly. Well, that makes sense to the Nepalese. Yeah. But it had that purple flavor that I like. I don't really go for the GDP so much. The grapes. But I like those old perfumey, stinky, small buds, but they don't take much. I like those purples. So he brought over the pollen, the F1 seeds I sent most of them to the server fund auction for ICMAG. Among the other people who bought them was a guy who went by Brando M.K. And he had been head of something for prime wellness in Pennsylvania, which is a leak, I guess a big ass company. And he happened to take the seeds in there and pop them there. They became prime wellness property. As far as he was concerned, as far as he could say, these are my personal stash. But to this day, they still run two phenos that they call sour blueberry. Oh, nice. They make shatter. They make all the concentrates out of it. I go through the matter of fact, on their website, they have it listed as subrobs sour diesel, which it wasn't subrom, sour diesel. It was the sour diesel clone. But I think that had marked on his packaging was subrom, and then he sold across the damn new bloke. So that's what I've got going. A guy in Wales bottom in like 2010, he lives in Wales. So he told me he told me he says, I've got tens of thousands of dollars of seeds in my deep freeze that I never got to grow. And he goes, some of them are yours. Why don't I just send them back your way? And he did that six going in the in the veg tent right now in perpetuity. I cracked them like eight months ago. And I've just been recycling moms because I have I am flowering here. Yeah, that's been going on for a while, bro. Oh, I got to I got to do it. I got a gene car double coming. So I need to it's real interesting when you're running literally just personal growth. Yeah. I went from having enough room and we weren't even big. I've never at no stage in my career. Would I be considered a big time commercial grower by today's standards? And no same. I've done compares to the 100 lighters, 200 lighters, 1000 lighters, you know, but I used to have room for stashing anything I wanted, cracking seeds and an extra tray over there in the corner. It's different when you are when you just run in a little five by 10 by eight. Yeah. I was going to ask you because obviously we have we have lots of different clones than names that we could ask you about. But I did want to know because you were you know, just referring to your current situation like what are you working on now and like what what do you think the future holds for you in terms of the pints? Right now I'm not working on anything man. I've been smoking the SSH dub for going on a total of the last harvest of it for like six months now. I just started going over to another when I moved down here to New Mexico, there's another old time Icy Magger that I've known forever online who lives here and I go buy and get samples from them and it's just really slowed down the flowering schedule. Plus I kind of I grew a little more than I needed to and I don't I don't sell weed anymore, you know. Yeah. Well I've been the real work I've been putting in is judging that SSH dub lately. But I do have plans for every three sets of plans I make. I usually carry out one. And the next thing I'm going to do is see if this East Coast sourdab me worth doing a seed increase. And I got this goes back, sorry here I am derailing the conversation again. When I was living in Valley Sands around 2013, 2015, maybe my house got burgled. And I had in the freezer, I had a been with every crime I'd ever made. Not to mention all my friends had ever made anything I'd ever bought traded for. And in them I have a whole bunch of those of both F1 and F2 East Coast sourdab me that I had always planned because of the success that crime wellness had with 10 of those seeds, I always had plans to work that line and maybe do some real actual breeding work with it. But the thief along with a bunch of other shit got all the seeds. So I need to find out just how stiff these East Coast sour diesel genetics come through in these seeds and just how our core the Dab me kush does and see if it's worth trying to to increase and do something with those. Thieves suck bro. Very cool. Thieves always fucking shit up. Yeah, yeah, like, yeah. I also want to do another sourdab reversal because I missed some plants. I didn't I didn't get the the Kennedy cut in time when I made those seeds and going back to that that plant I got from Kanarado hitting Kennedy with sourdab. These are crosses. These sourdab crosses are something that I beg my friends who make and sell seeds to do. I didn't want to do any of this stuff and I wanted to move on. But the cannabis world, the demand in the industry seems to have moved on from some genetics prematurely. I'm not saying I'm saying, hey, you know, go get the sherbet and the biscotties and the biscuits and the whatever hell else pastries are out there. But don't you know, out a little bit, you know, because there's a lot of the there's a lot of the cuts that came in the era of the forums that we should still be concentrating on. I mean, you know, I don't I don't I don't want to take the journey away from from everybody, but at least a small percentage of people need to go back and start start working with the sours and the ends and the OGs because those are gene pool. And oddly enough, I've talked about it, like I have people hitting me up all the time asking for OG cuts because nobody kept them like not nobody but in a lot of people enough people dropped them that a lot of these big, you know, places that these people used to run like they don't even have OGs anymore, not pure OGs. And that gets us circled back to SDF, which is the threat I'm supposed to be staying on. Sorry. We all had at one point, not only did all the P 91 bull riders, you know, all we all had not just one, but we all had all those cuts. Yeah, you had in your bedroom, you had P 91 in your bedroom, you had madness in your bedroom, you had cat piss, you had hogs breath, and they all disappeared. And you know, blame eight, I really do, because I wasn't one who had never had access to that many cuts, you know, at one time. Yeah. And the only one who went crazy and would just get cuts from eight and veg them and flower them in a tent with 14 other kinds, it was single plant each, you know, 15 cuts. And you would just, you know, move on from them. And you wouldn't keep moms because you got another 20 from me. Yeah. And basically, we all thought that P 91 would stick around, we all thought bull around, and they just up and disappeared in the matter of like a year and a half. Yeah, they did. Yeah, I'm saying we didn't know what weird, it was like being cut drunk, you know, eat that shit up and forgot about lost cycle repeats itself. How it goes, dude. Always thought everything was gonna be around forever. Yeah, because maybe this is almost more for Matt, but when I look at, you know, I went through some of the threads and piled a whole list of clones that stood out to me. When I look at some of the names, you know, Chernobyl, strawberry cream, day record, it also strikes me that, of course, this is some of these are some of the cuts that Matt worked with earlier as well. Yeah. So yeah, it's cool to make that connection. I didn't I didn't actually realize I don't think I like that strawberry cream. Yeah, you would have run the same exact clone that I did because mine came by eight. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, it was great, man. If for a strawberry, it was fucking mega strawberry. I had another one. I don't know what it was. A lot of times I would get cuts. I'm sure everybody did for me where something went wrong and the information wasn't past right. But I remember calling the one Bob, which said for body odor, berry. That was a big gas fairy. I'm curious what other cuts did you come up with from those threads? What else do you come up with? Let's see. So we've already mentioned P91 Hugs breath bull rider. So I saw a GDP Great Bay Cat Piss, Purple Cush, Green Ice, Albert Walker, Chernobyl, Green Ice, Strawberry Cream, we mentioned, Olbetsy, Master Cush, Day Ready. Green Crack. Green Crack was a big one down there. So Green Ice was something that was around for a very short period of time. That was Caligree. He had gotten some seeds from the original GG4, which was Gorilla Gold 4 by Brea Had up in Canada, which was an awesome strain indoor or out. It was kind of on the bland side for indoor weed in Southern California at the time. But Calig found a male and he hit Green Crack along with a couple other cats. And so that's where Green Ice was born. And that is a strain that still to this day, I still, whenever I talk to him like, Hey, man, do remember Green Ice? Dude, I know. I fucked up. I shouldn't have lost it. But yeah, that was, I remember the flavor of that. I haven't hit that since probably 2007 or eight. That was in the beginning. And I still remember, I remember that, that plan. That was awesome. I'll bet you not many people remember it, but I enjoyed that very much. Do you remember AK48 God's Gift? Just lying around? Yeah, I don't think I grew it, but I say that all the time. And then I go through the forums. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I did grow that. But I remember growing AK47. I remember growing Cherry. I remember AK47. When's the earliest that came out? Fuck, I don't know. Probably mid 90s. Yeah. Because when I was in Portland growing a blueberry, there was one guy that one of the very few guys we let in on our secret. He was a grower also. And he was growing these newer seeds, AK47 and White Widow. And he had, he'd selected cuts from both of those. And that was pretty awesome weed. I'd never really had AK47 that lived up to that AK47 that what's his name was growing back in the day. Yeah. Good strength. I've had a few good AK47s. There was like a Lemon AK. There was the Cedar AK, but then there's also the Cherry AK that went around San Diego. And it was beautiful, frosty, no density to it. It was fluffy and not very potent, but it was really good tasting. That was about it for it. It's still floating around. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'd used it in the Cherry Berry. Not too long ago. I enjoyed it. Yeah. Me too. I was stoked to see it again, even though it's not super potent. It is a great breeder, especially for those herbs. Cherry cough drop. Yeah. Now I've already, I remember a couple of the clones you listed, thousand popped off in my mind immediately, but I've already forgotten what they were. So I think ones we haven't talked about yet, like maybe Chernobyl or Dayrecker or Albert Walker. Any of those? Chernobyl was a seed line from TGA. So there's a lot of different kinds of that. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. The Dego Walker. Remember that? Walker, Sean, I think Sean was the one who got that one. And it was B. Albert and Fletch. I think all Fletch he'd been needed to see was the bedchicks of that plant. And he was like, Hey, bro, that ain't, that's not Albert Walker. And it turned out it wasn't. Of course, he was, he was right on with that one. So we called Walker just because we were too lazy to cut. We didn't know if we were going to end up keeping it. Tell you what man, that plant is a citrus explosion. Yeah. It was a nice plant, dude. Tried taking the citrus down or not. The first reversal I ever tried was Tahoe, OG Kush. Oh, wow. I had it in the room and I was spraying it every day and it just wasn't going well. And so I said, Sean happened to come over one day and he got in there and he found a pinprick of pollen somewhere on that plant and he ran upstairs and he hit, and he hit Dego Walker with it. I think he got three seeds, grew all three of them out, and one of them was still around. It's called cactus cool. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Cooler cut comes from, and we always swore we were going to reverse Tahoe or one of the OGs and hit it again and try to bat that citrus down a little bit more. Pretty cool with that in a room. It's overwhelming. It's too much. It's great how much citrus was from now. Yeah. I was bummed when I found out that wasn't real Albert Walker because that was one of the ones that I fucked with, too. And I was like, oh, yeah, we got the real Albert Walker. We got that down here. It turned out not to be. I've never smoked, grown, knowingly smoked Albert Walker. And that's the bottom of it. Like you said, that's what I was wanting to try. Yeah, same. I've never seen a real one or smoked it or wouldn't even know what it smells like. Nothing about it really. That one, isn't it? That's my only experience with it. What was your favorite scene Dego cut? I was so partial to Hogg's breath. Yeah, I really tried after the question. I probably didn't need to for sentimental, if nothing else, you know. And the clockwork one that came from Doug, this crazy Doug down there. Doug knew everyone. He was the one who hooked me up with James in the first place. And the whole Hogg's breath grew. But he had, you know, like there's an Apollo 13 cut he had down there that was really good. He gave me Fire OG really early on. He gave me Chem D really early on. So like, yeah, he was, that dude was connected to everyone. Sorry guys. Just wanted to ask here, and Matt, maybe this is obvious, but I'm just like, it's not clear to me. What's the overlap between the Hogg's breath crew and San Diego's finest in terms of people with lots of crossovers or? Not really. It was just family. Like the Hogg's breath family was there. They ran unified collective in San Diego. And you know, people that you could go in there and talk to them anytime, dude, who yeah, so it was just like local groups, basically local, local different groups. And Hogg's breath was just that well known in San Diego that everybody knew it. It was it was the staple. Do we want to talk about the bull rider? Are we, as everyone's sick of I still play, I feel like we're bringing it up once in a while. I don't know anything about bull rider myself because I've only ever had a fake bull rider. Bull rider probably overall is was probably my favorite of the San Diego cut. Yeah. I love, I love the smell. The smell and the taste was just, you know, I barely even remember it if I'm being honest, but I remember, you know, when I first got here, I just come off smoking blueberry for four years. Yeah. Straight. Had become a big thing for me. And I thought I was a snob, you know, but I knew what I was doing. And bull rider was the one that took place of the bull rider for me because it gave me all the flavor that I could want from, from a dank, sour, but not sour diesel perspective. It was it was really dark, dank weed to me. And did old Betsy, did old Betsy cross your path down there? Yeah, but you know, I used to get old Betsy from the same guy who I got everything else from. But here's where everything differs for me. When I think back to the old Betsy, that he was getting me, I think of really dark, purple, almost black leaf weed. Oh, interesting. I wasn't that big of a fan of it. It wasn't just once or twice. It was a few times before he even quit bringing it when he would bring me his little briefcase full of samples and shit. Um, because I literally thought it was just a man cut, but I had to wonder since then, was I getting the real, but why would he get, you know, All this other legit shit and not Betsy? Yeah. He turned out to when I had to start going other places, when I got pee, when I got, you know, hogs, when I got any of that, it was the same thing that he used to get me. Uh, but then I see old Betsy plans growing that are green all the way through. Yeah. He describes not what, so I don't know, maybe like he, he got mad. He had more than one connect. You know, he, there was only one connect that he got madness from. So maybe he had that he went to get old Betsy from. So I don't want to do what genuine old Betsy was. I don't think I had the real deal. Um, how about blueberry hogs breath? Remember when that came around at all? I remember the, you know, the, the name. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know that I ever got any of that once I, once I see, I got here in 99 and I wasn't growing right away, but I was growing again by 2001 2002. By then I was no longer, you know, buying. I was growing enough to keep myself going year round. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. That was, I just remember when that finally got released and he let it out, like you could throw a rock and hit it. Like it was in every fucking grow room of every fucking kid in San Diego for a while. Yeah. Yeah. I got my grow secret from, wow, is that good for the first few years I was growing in San Diego. I used to, uh, I used to use, I used to rent apartments and they had to have a walk-in closet and then I would just basically take about 80% of the closet and build out of styrofoam a wall that I could just door into. Got pretty good at that too. We ended up, it was kind of cool to build rooms out of styrofoam, small rooms. Oh yeah. But we got to the point where we built that 12 foot ceilings in this building and we built a 16 by 12 by 12 grow room. Two of the four walls were just built out of completely out of styrofoam duct tape and spray epoxy. Yeah. About four inches thick. That's the way to do it. When you leave the ventilation system on overnight and suck in the walls or blow the walls out, then you just call in a poked out Russian to frame it in for you and do it for you. I appreciate the tip on that book that you told me to get to, the Afghani one. What was it called? Isn't it? Yeah, what was it called? Do you remember? Going to my. Yeah, I'll have to look. It's a really killer book though. It's really well done. Afghanistan, the Kingdom of Afghanistan. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's very similar to Churniax. Telling the story as it, you know, as it happened. I'll tell you what, yeah, you need to do, people need to do more episodes on Ash, on Hashish because it's the, there's no blueprint, you know. And for a couple of years, I was going through your book stash and explaining what I was looking for. I wanted the basic blueprint. I wanted to, okay, this is where you start when you make cash. And this is what you can expect. And this is what you should do. And you can do that with growing flowers. You can do that with living soil. You can get that information on any aspect of growing. But for, but for making dry set of Hash, it's just not out there. And I couldn't understand why it wasn't out there. Why isn't there a book? This is how you make dry set of Hash. And now, now I understand because it's, it's different every single time, man. It's such fluid art that has done so many different ways with the same basic tools. Yeah. I think people need to start talking about Hashish for concentrates in general, but specifically dry set. Yeah. You've done some beautiful dry set of stuff that I've seen. I appreciate that a lot. I really don't like smoking just flour anymore. You know, as obsessed as I've been with growing from my entire adult life back into my teens, it is now second seat. It's just a step to getting to making Hash. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. It was the penultimate. It was the destination for the first 40 years of my experience with cannabis. And now it's just turned to the last step. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you do a damn good job at it. I'm really happy. I'm the fuck you. I'm the hashtag, you know, fuck your legal weed guy. Yeah. Honestly, I'm happy for everybody who's who's getting it going on. I'm happy that not nearly as many people are going to jail for it. I think it's fucking great. And if I were 25 years younger, I'd be, you know, I'd be all over it, but it's so nice to be this age where, see, for example, you don't always want to see behind the curtain, right? Yeah. You know, grew up a fanatic of Harley Davidson motorcycles, loved Harley, loved the lifestyle, loved the fictionalized lifestyle, loved true lifestyle, loved riding, all that stuff. I went to work for Harley Davidson and I still love it. But now I know it's, it's a job. It's a lot of jobs for a lot of people to put that image that I fell in love with. And it's so loved. That takes a lot of work to keep that. And once you see that, it just takes a little edge of the magic off. You know what I mean? Just a little bit. It actually opens up a whole new world, you know, just well, but with legal weed, I'm actually kind of glad that I'm kind of, you know, missed that being the focus of my professional drive, because now I get to keep magic and I get to, you know, tell people to go fuck themselves and, you know, call people's sellouts. Happy for everybody else. I'm not going to take part in anything where tax money goes to law enforcement. You know what I mean? That's probably a whole other episode in and of it. Yeah. I mean, you can rant about that shit for hours. I'm happy with what's going on. See, at this point, I'm just talking. I'm not even thinking of the podcast. I'm Yeah. Now we love that. Yeah. Here in New Mexico, I don't even know what I literally made myself be ignorant. I don't know if any of the tax goes to law enforcement out here. And I don't want to fucking know. Yeah. Because it just ruins it for me about losing the magic, bro. Yeah. Yeah. I look, they got some really cool shit in the legal scene out here. And I'll tell you what, since it went recreational a couple of years ago, the quality has skyrocketed, which doesn't take much. All you need is a Cali pipeline for cuts, you know. Yeah. Right. It's skyrocketed, but I haven't partaken at all. I've never been in a dispensary out here in three and a half years. I've never shopped. I did look into, they have macro licenses here. Oh, do they? Max is out, I think at a few hundred plants. Yeah. Somebody who is at least zoned right can make an honest mom and pop shop attempt out here in New Mexico, especially in Southern New Mexico, where everything, the focus is always on mom and pop, you know, small stuff down here from food to art to, you know, it's a great place. They can develop a really, they can develop a really cool cannabis seed here in Blocks, Jerusalem. They'd have to choose one thing, another, another thing that just I'm zero tolerance on. And for personal grow, I can have wall plants here, right? Yeah. If I have six in flower, I'm limited to six in bench. Yeah. You want to, you want to set the number of what I can flower at six and charge me attacks, essentially, for anything above that, because you'd have to get a macro micro license. Yeah. I'm fine. But don't fucking tell me how many goddamn plants I can have in bench. You know what I mean? What's that doing? The fact that somebody has 10 plants instead of six, well, they got six in flower is not going to influence anybody who isn't going to break your law anyway to break that law. They'll do this. You're not creating criminals by letting them have 30 or 40 edge plants while they search through a batch of seeds. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like this is so small town. Do it yourself. Mom and pop restaurants, mom and pop everything that if they would let people, you know, do those circles, find those phenos develop the habits you need, the experience you need to find special cuts out of seeds. You know, you let the people do that, you're going to organically grow a nice cannabis seed. Oh, yeah. Rather than the cats who moved from Cal, I'm not talking shit, but there's people who moved from California out here to New Mexico. Oh, absolutely. You know, even if New Mexico did very well to make sure it was New Mexico residents getting the licenses, a lot of those licenses got somebody in the grow room, you know, from Cali running the whole fuck show. Yep. Again, no, not disrespecting anybody. It's a good business move on everybody's heart. But never you're letting those people dictate what the local scene grows. Yeah. Last year, it was sort of an island on land. You know, you got El Paso over a very unfriendly state line. Yeah. And then you got a whole lot of desert for a whole lot of miles, a whole lot of Indian reservation. And then you got northern Mexico on way away. So I really wish they would do away with the plant count laws as far as vegetative. Yeah. That doesn't really make a lot of sense, especially considering like you're not producing any drug content with the veg plants. Who gives a fuck about the veg plants? The people who grow more than six without a license are going to grow more than six without a license. Absolutely. Yeah, right. It's common sense. So if that was changed, I'd be a happy cat. I was going to get a micro license. One of the things you have to do is present them with business plan. And I don't give you the information over the phone, but I annoyed one of the clerks who works there so much. She says, okay, pitch me your business plan. And I'll tell you what I think. I said, well, my business plan, she goes, how much money are you going to make in the first year? I'm like, none. She's like, what do you mean? I said, I just want to pop seeds, man, and be able to sort through them. That's all I want to do. I don't want to sell cuts of it. I don't want to do any of that shit. And if I did, I'd do it and I wouldn't fucking tell you anyway. Yeah, right? Right. But she's like, you know, that's just not, you know, your business plan will have to be approved. So you will have to come up with something. And that's when I said, okay, thanks for that. I was like, fuck it. I'm not looking any further. Business plan, bro, we're stoners. Look out of your business plan. Well, you know, it's not a bad idea. You got to force people to to consider these. There's also, we live in a water rights state. So there's, you know, I don't have any water rights, although I do have a well on my lot that's no longer at youth, but it qualifies me to buy water rights. But I'm like, look, I'm not going to need any water rights because I'm not going to be growing enough where I'm just not going to go fill my seven gallon jugs with RO water down at Middlebury's in the grocery store parking lot. It tests less than a hundred parts per million. So yeah, she's like, your business plan just doesn't make any sense. I'm like, I'm sorry, I just want to pop seed. Yeah, business plan. I love that. Yeah, you need a business plan. I want to make no money. How about that? You didn't go over well. So I don't know. But I do appreciate some of the things they're doing here in New Mexico and it being a low populated state, it allows them to kind of push towards grassroots a little bit. I think it's a good thing. But I'm sure they still fund the pigs somehow. So you know, they do. They always do. Always find a way to do it. You got to get your cut or it ain't happening. Yeah, who's going to protect you, bro? Who's going to keep you safe? They don't get their cut. Yeah. Right. But other than that, you know, it'd be just be a great place, especially for any for Asian. Oh, yeah. And raise the span 120 degrees. It's got plenty of humidity in late summer. You know, it's you look at pictures in those books like that book you just got. And yeah, it looks a lot like my backyard. Yeah, it looks a lot like Bakersfield too, bro. Like it's very similar. Yeah. High temps love it. Yeah, also burns up all the turps though, I'd imagine. No, no. It, what did I grow? I grew three skank dog or I grew three three skunk dog S ones. Okay. Three of some sort hit with orange juice bud from OBSOL obsolete. Like I said, they stunk. They stuck the in everybody knew somebody was grown by someone. Oh, I bet everybody within a mile radius. And I'm trying to downtown, I'm zoned commercial residential here. Yeah. And I've been in my room and I got a big ass empty one room casita out back. I had I had the potential to do cannabis business if I wanted to. But like I said, you know, having kind of missed that window, it allows me to just enjoy being all found all time. Yeah. Well, do you have any shoutouts you want to do? Nope. Oh, you mean like for like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, any shoutouts you want to do for the closing out, just say, hey, give a shout out to my boy XYZ. Yeah, everybody knows who everybody knows who I'm with. Yeah, that's right. That's that's right. I want to make them feel special. If they're friends of mine, really get the shout out. Yeah. That's what's up. And like we said, you can find your seeds at seed trip seed trip seeds at riotseeds.com in the feminized section. And they'll be available until they're sold out. So be sure to grab them. And with that, we want to say thank you. Thank you for joining the show, Rob. And we'll have you back soon. Have fun. Thanks, Rob. Like we said, your seeds are available at riotseeds.com. Is there anywhere else? No. No, that's it. There's not enough. I mean, I'm keeping what I got. Yeah. People need to jump on those. I suppose we probably, I was really high when we discussed that. I hope I got across. You know, I think you did a good job. Did we? Yeah. Yeah, we did a good job on that. Yeah, grab those. Want to sit at the table with the syndicate? Check out our Patreon and our link tree or description below. Our merch site is officially live. We have all sorts of shirts, hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast. And most importantly, the quality is top notch. I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose, so please check it out syndicategear.com. We also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily. It's an amazing community of learning away from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge. We hope you join our union of breeders and growers. Come check it out.