 Welcome to embracing the electronic portion of the E.T.D.s presented by Kim Fleshman from Bowling Green State University Graduate College and Erica Finley from the University of Utah Graduate School. Hello everybody, how are you? Everybody can hear me okay? Online, can you hear me okay? Great. I'm used to usually standing up when I do this kind of thing. I teach in our College of Business also so if I seem like I'm moving and stuff I'm sorry. So how many of you are familiar with this picture? Have you seen this in your libraries? Today we're here to talk about some examples of other kinds of media besides prints like performed music scores, digital storytelling, graphic novels, websites, transgenre documents, dance videos, and video games. With all these non-traditional types of documents, the file sizes can be big. So first question of course is where do we save them? It's pretty easy when it was print and then we just bound them and put them on a shelf. How do we preserve them? You have a website or you have a video game or you have some sort of computer code. How are you going to decide to preserve that and what kinds of file sizes are acceptable because if it's too big, they can't download it and enjoy and learn from that particular non-traditional document. So this is some of the questions that Erica's and my university's we're struggling with currently. In Ohio we're fortunate enough to have OhioLink for our preserved documents and it can accept just about any kind of file as a supplemental file but the thesis or dissertation is still technically the PDF. Other types of files to consider or other things about files to consider file sizes is extremely important. If it's too large, no one can download it, nobody can view it. And also is it the type of file that can still currently, I mean if we, I'll get into this a little bit later, but if you think about what if they had put their audio files on cassette tape. It might be hard today to find a way to play a cassette tape. So we need to think about preservation for things that are going to work long term, especially the way our technology changes so much today. Another thing to consider is, you know, because you want the size to be manageable so you can download is that students care about the number of views that their documents are getting. It's a competitive kind of thing amongst graduates, at least at my school it is and how many of you have had that experience. Often it's also considered depending on the work that one's going into for the number of downloads. So I'll let Erica. So we're going to focus mostly on non-traditional dissertations here and that is technically anything besides your average five chapter monograph that includes for a lot of people who write about non-traditional dissertations the things that we've been talking about all day with the inclusion of reprinted material and so forth. But we're looking more at things that are deliberately changing how we experience and look at the information. We're looking at the changes that are taking place that are embracing the fact that this information is now should be considered born digital and how that affects the way we experience the scholarship. And then we did want to share that website. We don't you don't have to go to it but that website is a great list that we found of some non-traditional dissertations that are currently out there. So you can click on all of these different things and some some are actually links some are not but it's a great resource if you're curious about the subject for you to experience what kind of alternative work is being put out there and you can see it's from all over and it's a it's a great list to look at. And then we wanted to just go quickly over some of the more famous alternative format works that are out there probably with the one that you would hear talked about the most is Nick dishonest is unflattening which is an actual graphic novel. So that was an interesting look at the way information is presented right. And then that also brings up some accessibility questions which is something that we'll have to talk about later but you can actually purchase this as a physical graphic novel copy. But that presents kind of an issue like is it going to be submitted as a traditional PDF. How does how does this work for the repository as well. Another famous one is my gothic dissertation by Anna Williams. This is a podcast product project. She has actually been managing it somewhat after graduation so you can actually see some of her her work out there. You can click on each chapter and hear her speak it out loud. The website is maintained like I said and it's maintained by the author, which is another thing to consider who who has the burden of maintaining this work after it is published. So she has taken on this burden. And the question again I have is should should the university not have to take on that burden. Next slide we have another one that is an actual audio dissertation. It's a rap album essentially. He he formatted it a lot like a Wikipedia page. So you can go click on each chapter that has a little bit of writing to explain. But then you can listen to the music that goes along with it. Again, this is something that he is physically maintaining. So Megan Adams is a BGSU graduate. She received a doctorate in spring of 2015 from our institution. She did a digital storytelling dissertation. Digital storytelling is defined as a short form of digital media production that allows everyday people to share aspects of their story. It's the process by which diverse people share their life stories and creative imaginings with others. This dissertation was our 2015 Distinguished Dissertation Award Winner. It's a Peabody award-winning documentary. It's intertwined some video and text. I was going to, but I think it's my next screen here to give you an example of what it looks like on one of the pages. With the embedded videos in this PDF, there's no real way to download it due to the size. This is 2,219 megabytes and I had to work with Emily Flynn personally. I think we used retransfer or something else to get this puppy up because we couldn't email it to each other. She couldn't upload it into Ohio and it's just gigantic. However, you don't want to remove the videos from it because it takes away from the purpose of the document itself. So currently Megan is an assistant professor of communication at the University of Finlay, which is a private university just south of BGE about a half an hour. And she has various students that are working on oral history, so she's teaching them about digital storytelling. I want to go back, sorry. I want you to see this quote from Megan and take a moment to read that quote. So Megan was aware that she had to submit her dissertation in a PDF format based on our university's guidelines. Even though she always imagined the dissertation as a web text, this was her workaround to avoid that hassle that might result in challenging our current guidelines. Megan compromised including embedded video directly into this dissertation. Her concerns may explain the hesitation of many graduate students who are focused on completing their degrees in a timely manner. So was it really worth it to argue it to get that definition changed? So she found this workaround. So many students like Megan who are doing certain kinds of digital research, there's not only a larger time investment in regards to that technology and literacy and learning, but then there's these learning curves and working with digital data. Okay. You have to make an argument for the digital format of the dissertation at your university to allow more students to explore and come up with the ability of nontraditional documents. So, yeah, I'll take over for this slide. So, Kristen Lafellette-Thamson was another BG graduate that I dealt with at my time at BG, along with Kim, we had to figure out how to deal with her lovely dissertation. She considers it transgenre, which was a new term for us and we had to learn what that meant. She is one of the very emerging authors in this field. It is amongst everyone who talks about it, her name comes up frequently. There are other authors like Ames Hawkins, Barry Jean Borich and Mary Capello that are also publishing in this unique field. It has an intertwining of images and text in a way that's unique. So, it's essentially considering the images as text themselves versus supplemental images to support the text. It's considering these as actual textual objects. So, while Kristen was at BG, she did teach a course in this. It is a new thing that's being talked about. It's very interesting. The idea is multi-modality and it's composing beyond the alphabetic. It doesn't just have to be images that are inserted. You can also insert sound clips, anything to accompany and make a work unique. And composing in a way that is a successful communication is the idea. Let me see, I had a really interesting quote here. Part of the reason for writing this is to show how art and transgenre composing can be used in the writing classroom to help teach writing and how art and writing work together to create more effective and rhetorically aware composers. And that was the quote from Kristen. So, we're going to show you a few examples of what that looks like here. So, I'll let you go ahead and read this quote from Kristen. So, in Kristen's dissertation, the first four chapters of the dissertation are a standard dissertation. In Chapter 5, it was when she went into synthesis, which is a collection of photographs, photographs that she took that she has the rights to use. I think we should make that clear just for copyright purposes. And a collection of photographs and words. Let me show you, this is the first page of the document, literally physically what the first page looked like. And then the next. So, here, this is an example of what it, one of the textual images from the paper. From here, you're encouraged to read and view the individual aspects of the transgenre composition several times. You can try reading the composition from left to right, right to left, top to bottom, bottom to top. And then in doing these multiple readings of the image, how did your understanding perception of the composition change evolve or expand when reading or viewing the composition from all directions? So, the reader here is supposed to consider the composition as a whole. And it does not necessitate the standard reading process. Even you can choose not to read it from left to right or top to bottom. However you choose to read it is the correct way to read it. Advice from the author here is that the images and words necessarily work together and cannot be seen as separate entities. So, just take a moment and read the image yourself. So, you need to consider projects from the author's intent instead of applying that blanket set of formatting rules. Actually, in this instance, we originally were trying to decide whether these should be listed as figures and how to handle them a few years ago when we received this and how it should be marked. But the intent of the picture is to read it like you would read words. So, we didn't go with that being figure one, figure two, that kind of thing. So, the formatting rules in our opinion at BGSU didn't apply to this particular document. And while one student may choose to create a collage work and another may come in with experience as a sketch artist or a photographer, a painter, something like that. So, they could include these creations that they have made in with the words. Transgender composing brings together image and text in many forms, yet it consistently works toward creating more rhetorically aware composers who consistently consider who they are composing for or composing to. The images and text are not separate. They work together to create and altogether new reading viewing experience. And that is a longer lasting experience. Again, part of the quote from Kristen was that the project itself queers the traditional dissertation genre by shifting expectations of what a dissertation should look like. It engages composing tools beyond the alphabetic. So, BGSU has someone in our American Culture Studies program who is interested in submitting a graphic novel for their dissertation. And since we are currently awaiting that submission, it brought up a lot of things of what to do because in a PDF, you know, a comic book or a graphic novel generally has cells and those cells are kind of like a table when they're set up. So, Acrobat's going to recognize them like a table. There's not going to be a header row. There's going to be regularity issues. You'll have nested cells and merged cells. So, it's just not going to stay this even perfect table shape. After reading an article from the National Foundation for the Blind, I learned about a teenage boy. His name is Matthew Schifrin. And he talked about his love of comic books. Okay. So, he discovered a comic book script archive and the link is here. This allowed, he said, this allowed me to do, well, this, I should say, allowed me to develop a template for our graphics novel person who's going to be submitting so that they can use the title page and our front matter, which makes all of our documents look a certain way and then you recognize it is BGSUs. Okay. But then when we get to page one, I'm going to show you an example on the next slide of how it will look. So, he's going to set it up like a script. I want you to look that over. This particular comic is from a friend of mine that I grew up with, John Boise. He happens to actually work for ProQuest as a graphics artist. And if you're interested in reading any more of his comics, you can go to Facebook and look up Wee Freaks because he has a page and he submits one each week on Wednesdays. So, as you can see, each panel describes what's happening in it. So, if you can't see it, the screen reader is going to read that to you. Then it gives you the chance to see what quote the person is saying, like a script, like anybody would do for a TV show. So, here we want to talk about another one of the first ones that we found, examples of an alternative dissertation. This is a website dissertation from Rensler Polytechnic Institute in New York. This is from December 2008. She has kept things active for 10 years. That was the last submission. But she still keeps it up. Again, this falls on the author to keep it up, interestingly enough. This is her dissertation on Xena, the Princess Warrior. And you can see here how she has managed this. Again, in sort of a Wikipedia type format where you can click on things and get different information, it does have some of our standard information that we see in dissertations where you have the table of contents, the title page, abstract, all of that good stuff. So, we're looking at things like this because if you look at journals now, you see content very similar to this, where you have the text and the figures and tables sort of all organized in a reader-friendly environment online. So, is this something that's more accessible in terms of getting away from the PDF format, and then who is going to maintain this? Another example I wanted to look at is on the next slide. This is somebody who is an actual, was a congresswoman from Georgia. She is submitted her dissertation to the university, where was she? Antioch University, that's her. So, this project was involved video interviews, and she still wrote the traditional five-chapter dissertation. She uploaded her PDF, and then she uploaded these video interviews as supplemental information along with the dissertation. This is something that I actually am starting to discourage because information that's pertinent to the actual understanding of the document should be part of the document. So, instead of uploading those as supplemental information, they really belong alongside the rest of the writing. So, this is something I would have liked to see actually incorporated into the document, and I think that that's something that we're kind of getting more towards in the future. And then, again, websites are becoming more and more popular. We've got three wonderful examples here. I am a fan of how each of these are done. I do want to point out Amanda Visconti started a wonderful project called Infinite Ulysses, and as you see here, it's being shared as an archive because it's no longer active. The idea was for people to read Ulysses and share their interpretations, and so it could be something for actual people to experience the novel and understand the novel because if you're familiar with the novel, it's very hard to understand and interpret, and it was supposed to be an interactive project, but because there's no one uploading it anymore and working on it anymore, it's unfortunately relegated to the scrap yard. So you can see what other people have done on it, but it's no longer active because the author is not keeping it active. And then I did want to share this is one of my favorite ones that I found. This is from someone who got their PhD in history from George Mason University. Jerry, I don't want to put you to the last name. I'm guessing Wibringa. So this is a wonderful website that I think is what we really should be heading towards. Can we share the website on this one? So you can see here, it looks a lot like a traditional dissertation, but as you go through it, it reads in a fashion that's digital, born digital, and it embraces the website format while still keeping the basics of the dissertation. It has clickable links. So that is a wonderful thing in terms of accessibility. Everything works on it. It's clean. It's clear. One of the things I do want to point out about it again, is that it's managed to be a word for us, which looks like a personal blog site in some ways. So we can look at trying to find other ways to maintain these resources. We're looking at making things look more like actual scholarship that's coming out of journals and so forth. We're looking at embracing the ideas of the current way scholarship is being experienced. OK, so how do these formats meet dissertation standards? So for non-traditional submissions, it is important to include, for example, an audio file of the performance of a music score submitted. If, and I am on the wrong slide. Sorry, guys. This is why they put it on video. Websites, of course. Sorry. So non-traditional submissions, it's important again to include audio files of the performance of the music scores submitted. Sorry about going back and forth. The transcripts for podcasts would be extremely helpful for accessibility purposes. Videos of a dance. I know Utah has a dance degree that they could use video for. That way you could see the fluidity of the movements versus just a flat picture. If you think about YouTube and today they have closed captioning and how YouTube, by the way, is making money. So if students are putting stuff out there, that's going to be there for a long time. You're not going to have to worry about it like a cassette tape or a VHS tape going away anytime soon. Talk about scholarly merit. So it must be significant, needs to be original, it needs to extend the knowledge. Those kinds of things are important, obviously, to qualify as a thesis or a dissertation especially. Does the format meet the quality of research and academic standards of that discipline? That's another thing you have to ask yourself. BGSU is currently looking at changing their policy. We define a thesis or a dissertation as a manuscript right now and we are working hard with our graduate council to get that kind of language changed. We're also considering can this non-traditional document be appropriately assessed by the committee. So you want to make sure who's going to judge your finished product. I personally wouldn't want to go through all the effort to create a website and then have several people on my committee who don't know anything about how to make a website. So they wouldn't know if it was good or bad looking at it and that makes it difficult to judge it. So a student has to take those kinds of things into consideration when they're picking a non-traditional format. Things need to be considered by a case-by-case basis because I don't know that there's a universal standard out there. Probably each university is going to make their own decisions on what they will or won't accept. And Erica, do you have something you wanted to add to that? Yeah, I just wanted to add that unfortunately a lot of the alternative scholarship that we're seeing out there is doing a lot of double the work as well. For instance, the University of Utah recently had a graduate who developed a video game and so he wrote a standard five chapter dissertation to describe his video game and then his video game was supplementary. So again, why does the video game itself not count for more of the scholarship? So I think what we need to see is more consideration of what defines a dissertation, how we're evaluating a dissertation, how committees evaluate that, how we accept that on our end and allowing for more alternative formatting and alternative ideas that are out there and giving credit for them. So other universities are thinking about this, they're releasing guidelines, they're posting opinions, they're defining non-traditional policies. We left a couple of links up here if you get a chance to look at the slides. This is something that all universities need to do to accomplish just catching up with the 21st century. Just because we make online PDFs available does not mean we're really pulling away from printed material. Our print documents really preparing our students for today's job market. What do you guys think of that? Our print documents really preparing today's students for the job market, how many dissertations go into academia? So it's, you know, how many people are getting, I mean, there's all sorts of dissertations out there now. I don't know if you guys are doctorate degrees I mean out there now. You guys realize that there's a lot of business doctorates and professional doctorate degrees. You can get done like in three instead of four years and therefore is the dissertation serving them well if they're going to not be working at another university? And then for humanities, how many degrees require you to have some sort of scholarship in digital humanities experience these days? You're required to be teaching how to do these things. So what's the point in writing your traditional monograph style manuscript? Did anybody in the chat say anything about that? No, just some random comments. Okay. Another thing that you need to consider with non-traditional submissions. Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say the part about the, you know, I think for the humanities to be able to show those skills, there was a famous dissertation, I can't remember when we went to that Purdue conference, Canvas that was popular at the time. And she said that's how she got her job. She got a faculty job, not because of the document itself but because of the skills that she showed in putting that document together. And that's a huge plus. You know, I think it's still interesting. You know, a couple of comments, a couple of hurdles, you know, the hard sciences seem reluctant to be the ones to switch to these alternative models. Absolutely. And they're the ones who are, because their faculty, we talked about this through the faculty, right? That it's the faculty that don't wanna switch from the way they did their dissertation and their advisor before them. So it's all about publishing, of course, getting published afterwards. And, you know, there's other factors, but certainly I think it's just wonderful that people can express these skills. And that isn't today's society, right? It isn't this over 100 year old dissertation that is just this text. Yeah, funnily enough, at BGSU, it's the English department that pushes trying to do these non-traditional documents the most. You would think it would be theater or it would be music or something. No, it's English. Yeah, exactly. We've experienced the same, we don't have many, but English is where they come from. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody else? So at Brigham Ann University, we have a lot of students now doing projects instead of traditional thesis and dissertations. And so trying, they can't be done through our normal graduate studies system that comes through to the library. So we ended up creating special collections within our Institute for Repository just for those projects. And they have, you know, lots of pictures and diagrams of things that they've created and all sorts of things that wouldn't fit in a traditional, you know. And we have, for our thesis folks, we have what we call plan ones and plan twos. And the plan twos are in a local institutional repository. And they could be anywhere from a portfolio to a major project. And we wanna try to capture more of these projects that would be non-traditional thesis, which is why we're trying to redefine it from a manuscript and instead come up with alternative wording. Because we feel that many of our plan twos happen to be something that, you know, when you call it a thesis, and it's a blog or a website or some other digital format, but you call it a thesis, it holds a very different perspective to future employers than when you say, I did this, I did a project. And I think Utah, Erica, you guys are going through that too, right? Yeah. And anything that's not a traditional manuscript is considered a project base. And it's almost treated subcar. Yeah, and when you're trying to get a faculty position and you say, I did a project base dissertation or project base doctorate, it doesn't hold the same weight as saying my dissertation was this. So I think redefining the nature of what an ETD is and how it's experienced is something that we all need to look at. That's where we need to change the terminology from project to a born digital dissertation. Yes, a born digital dissertation, I agree. Maybe I can write that down really quickly. Yeah, I love that terminology. Actually, that's a very common term as well. So I attended a thing back in 2018 or 2019. Now, I can't remember exactly what year the Beyond the PDF Dissertation or Beyond the PDF mini-conference at the University of Iowa. There's a lot of literature sitting back quite a few years. And then we have also recently had within the last couple of years as well, a conference at Purdue to extend that discussion. And so we are right in saying that it's the faculty that usually has issues. The students want to do these born digital projects, sorry, born digital dissertations. And it's the faculty that are holding a special, hopefully with the faculty turnover and moving into the new age, younger faculty come in. Maybe we'll start seeing an increase in those as well. Right. I did have another comment about the website dissertations that we have seen come through. Is anybody else familiar with Scalar? Yeah, yeah. Scalar's used in several of them. Yes. And I think on the Scalar website, there are quite a few examples actually from USC and Purdue is actually looking at receiving our first board of digital participation using Scalar. That's all for me. So I just had a comment. I know at GW, a lot of the master's programs in particular are moving away from a master's thesis to a project or what we call a Capstone project. And yet they still want to get that national exposure to that thesis and dissertation would happen. Right. So again, redefining it could make that difference for them. So just to start to wrap things up a bit here, other things to consider with these non-traditional documents are accessibility. I put a link here to alternative tech for the Social Security Administration Guide telling you that it helped me tremendously for when I teach accessibility in the accessibility video I made for our students to learn how to not only for a figure and try to describe it, but maybe you have an IRB letter. So a signature and a logo and things like that. The WCAG standards that most of you are probably familiar with those. Again, videos needing closed captioning, that's a big one. And I really promote YouTube to students for that because it's included. Yes, Larry. Is the general rule that if it's not something that's public, then you don't have to worry about it. Is that correct as far as accessibility? In other words, it caps down the paper, for example. I think your institution would have to define that. My institution defines it differently. I mean, even our website now, because I also handle the Graduate College website for BGSU and I can't put up PDFs and things without having them- You're talking about putting it up. On the web. If it goes into a file cabinet. And it's in the file cabinet unless it's requested by somebody, you know. Well, I guess when the, again, it's your university would have to make that decision. My university would look at it and say it needs to be accessible. Because there's always a chance that somebody could pull that. And I don't know, we're trying to avoid being sued. So we wanna make sure that it's good to go if somebody tried to pull it eventually and needed it for whatever reason. It also, we have a significant amount of faculty that have one or other accessibility issue and it helps them too. And they're the ones that are also trying to help our office, the Graduate College, with promoting these various types. Thank you. So some other things to consider is preservation of the document. Whose responsibility obviously is it? Are you going to go into the money and the cost and the amount of size and room that you need to hold these things and maintain them for students? Because that would keep them up and available longer than if you're asking them to do it. You could come up with some rule like, okay, this blog does qualify as a dissertation. It needs to be available for five years or 10 years or whatever. But once they graduate and you've given them the degree, what stops them from two years out saying I'm not paying for this anymore, right? So there needs to be another way to keep this preserved. Link rot is certainly an issue. Can't tell you even how many times on the Bowling Green's website that I end up clicking on something and it doesn't go anywhere. It goes to A to Z links sometimes as a page, web page we give, it's annoying. You can, if anybody's ever just Googled the Wayback Machine, you could find times that it has captured your website in the past and maybe that would help you in shortening up the, you can find the link from there and then shorten it up and try to navigate back to it. But that takes a lot of work. And those who are interested in academia don't want to have to go through all that effort. Regarding preservation, can I just make a quick comment? I think it was really interesting about what Erica said in terms of the Hugo Chavez incorporating the videos in the dissertation because preservation best practices and kind of usability are often at odds. So preservation best practices would say you need to keep the PDF without any videos because videos need to be separate because those can be migrated at a different time potentially when that video formats change which is probably not the same time the PDF formats change but then for a user, having them embedded is obviously the better way to go because they're easier to use, you just click on it. But so I think the institutions need to decide we're on the continuum between usage and preservation they wanna go. I completely agree with you on that. The only other thing I was gonna talk about was BitRot. Obviously, again, there are files that are just no longer supported, their machines not left to play them and access to the company that may be saving this content might not be available. So I noticed that Scalero is mentioned and I think it's a pretty secure site but there are other ones out there that people are trying to promote and you just don't know how long they're gonna be around. And then I also put this link out here for the Library of Congress recommended formats because they get into everything. It's a fantastic website. They talk about web software, video games, 2D and 3D, geographical information systems, GIS, data sets, musical scores, audio, videos, still images and text. They just have just about all of it. So I do recommend that you check that out if you're interested in non-traditional documents for your university. Anybody else have any questions? We're at time but we can probably. Okay. So I was talking to one of our archivists at Caltech and talking about what to do about some of the stuff that's our internet repositories. And he said he was using Archivet. I had not really considered that one or another because it doesn't come into my realm of reference. But I was wondering if that could be a tool that people that are trying to preserve, keep, maintain, whatever, these non-traditional dissertations because the way he was describing it to me is you can pretty much tell Archivet, so this tool, how many layers deep you want to grab a website, the pages of a website. And I was wondering if that could be a tool. I have no idea how picky it is. Yeah, that's a new one for me too, but it sounds like it has the ability to maintain things in an efficient manner. The question of course is does it stay up? Who's paying for it? And that sort of thing again, like are we going to, are our repositories going to pay for this and keep this up or is this something that students are going to have to foot the bill for if they want to do something unique? And so what he explained to me is that we at least our university actually has a copy, basically we maintain the platform locally. And he can also set the system to regularly, scrape if you want to call it that, the website in question. So I mean, for example, I'm just thinking for the podcast, for example, as long as it's an active podcast, then whoever's doing the archiving can say, okay, archiving every day, every week, every quarter, whatever works for them. And what he was showing me, because I think there's another platform that gets in also gets really complicated, but essentially he uses a different software to reimage the contents. So if we wanted to preserve, for example, the Caltech magazine. So magazine obviously has images, but it also has videos embedded. And so he would be able to reconstruct the word digital document in a way that could be presented anew to the reader, the viewer, the listener. So is this your institutional repository? If you're talking about? It's the archives copy. So we have multiple platforms and archive it is the one that he uses to image essentially the Caltech withhold. Okay. Okay. I really like the sound of that. I would also like to see those archived digital dissertations put in the digital repository along with everything else. So if you're searching for dissertations, you are also brought to that as well as an option to look at. I think that's another problem that we're seeing. You mean like the Pittsburgh site that we? No, like if you're searching the use space, you know, the digital repository for dissertations in the University of Utah or, you know, Ohio link. If you're searching in Ohio link for dissertations, it would be ideal if there were another way for us to see links and be brought to these digital dissertations as well. You should be able to at least create a metadata record that links to wherever this object is now. Right, our repository currently does not do that. So if it's a project-based project, it's only in a file cabinet somewhere. It's not accessible to the public. My librarians would be happy if you had a DOI, you know, something they can put in summons that you can get back to. We use that permanently so that if we have a mark where it is, we can just sort of be that handle. Yeah, all of our dissertations have thermal links. Yeah, that's true. If I included a couple of links on the site, it would also do the thermal links for getting people to use them. We are considering DOI's, but that would be a long term. So yeah, to retroactive, please. Anybody else? Anybody online? Well, thank you very much. Appreciate you listening. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.