 back to him since this is his bill. Good afternoon, it is now afternoon and we are back in house government operations committee. We're taking up H293, the youth council bill. And we had had some committee discussion, Amron earlier this morning around the establishment of standing committees of the youth council and a concern on part of some committee members that the standing committees don't seem to allow for space where youth can focus on more rural traditions. And so we went back and forth a little bit about adding another subcommittee and had some discussion about that. And so in the 10 minutes of space away from the computer, does anybody else have any questions, comments or suggestions on the issue at hand? Mike McCarthy. Thanks, Madam Chair. I thought about this a lot and wanted to sort of square the circle. So I really listened to Representative Higley's concern and I looked at the language while we were on break. And my suggestion is what if we, instead of being so prescriptive with the standing committees, just amended for so that it reads something to the effects. I sketched this out. The council shall establish an executive committee as well as standing committees and ad hoc committees as needed and allow the youth to pick their own standing committees and not worry so much about us naming them in statute. That's my idea to throw out there and see if that will solve that problem. Okay. Other ideas? Hal Colston. Thank you, Madam Chair. I also was kind of brooding on this and I still go back to page five, the top of page five subsection C and I'm wondering if the language after the word polls could include in order to evaluate the standing committees for the purpose of deleting or adding standing committees or something to that effect. So there's flexibility to see if it's working or not or something bubbles up that they need to focus on. Thank you. Okay, two different suggestions. One saying let's just not put the standing committees in statute and another saying maybe not exclusive of that specifying that they should use their surveys and polls to determine subcommittees. Mark Higley. I guess I can understand the Representative McCarthy's suggestion more so than Representative Colston's. Again, I just don't understand the hesitancy for mentioning Vermont traditions, whatever that might be. I just don't understand. I'm looking at the subcommittees now, Youth Voice Committee. I don't even really know what that means. Education Committee, I can see that. Equity and racism, yep. Climate change, yep. Youth Mental Health Committee. I just, the committees that I see there, I know that when I was 11 years old, there's no way that I would have thought of joining a group where I had influence in legislation or opinions to the Vermont legislature. I mean, when I got in high school, there was the Model UN, things like this that we participated in to get us involved. But to be honest with you, I haven't been very happy with, I mean, I think it's important for the youth to be involved to a certain degree, but in this day and age to be involved, the way that some youth are, I think is destructive to the growth of youth in Vermont. 11 years old, you should be more involved with the ability to do things that make you happy and not get so wrapped up and involved in the climate change issue or whatever. I mean, it's important to do what you can do, but to so viscerally at times, which I've seen some at the state house that come down, whether it's, if you're an NRA member, we're gonna do you in the next election. This isn't what you should be involved in. And this is my concern. This is my concern with this youth council and not having a broader perspective or at least maybe looking at things more in terms of opportunities for youth, for things that they can do to be fun or educational that are fun, but not such concerning issues that to me, 11 year olds really shouldn't be so distracted with. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to say that, but that's my feeling. And I just think that how we include it, I'm not sure, but I think there should be some ability to have them consider somehow from our traditions and conservation. And that runs the gamut, that runs the gamut with folks that want to work in the woods, whatever that might be, whether it's running a sawmill, whether it's creating nature trails behind the school, which they've done. It is hunting, it is fishing. But anyway, I just have a real concern. And if we can't work it in somehow, again, it's not something I can support because I think it's gonna be partisan and I think it's gonna be only the youth that have the time and energy to put into these very divisive and challenging concerns. Thank you. Hal Colston. Thank you, Madam Chair. As far as the Youth Voice Committee, for me, what rings out of that is youth leadership. So that's how that resonates with me. And my only concern about the suggestion made by Representative McCarthy is I really would not like to wipe out in one broad stroke all the hard work that went into them establishing these five proposed committees. So that would be my only concern. Mike McCarthy. Yeah, I really hear that concern that Representative Colston brought up and I am trying to balance the desire to really take seriously Representative Higley's concern and hope to earn his support and have this bill have the broadest support that it can from our committee with my concern that we not tell the youth who've worked on this and I hesitate to get into a debate about the partisan feelings of any of the youth who put this together. But the couple of things I wanted to throw out there just that it brought to mind this idea of 11 year olds thinking about issues like climate change or any of the things that are in these committees. When I was 13 years old, I did Model UN and was a delegate from China and had to put myself at a Model UN in the shoes of what would somebody who had the policy perspectives of a completely different country think about. And those are pretty serious things that we were talking about and debating Middle East peace as middle schoolers. My father, when he was 15 or 16 years old went to the March on Washington. Those are the kinds of things that these youth who are gonna participate in this council, these are some of the best and brightest. And I think that they'll be able to figure out for their own what issues are important for them and we don't necessarily need to prescribe that for them. So I really wanna try to focus on what the youth who did all this hard work did to represent Colson's point, but I also wanna create the space for the broader perspective that Representative Higley wants. So I'm not sure how to do that in this instance, but that's what I was thinking when I suggested that. Bob Hooper. Thank you, Madam Chair. I lend to Leen as others do towards how's solution. And I mean, to me, number four executive committee, ad hoc committees as needed, and even the committees themselves, I don't see how Representative Higley's Vermont traditions. I mean, in so many of these standing committees, if you get people on both sides of an issue, they're gonna have discussions about that. And there's so many of these, I mean, I would love to sit in on an equity and anti-racist and committee with a bunch of native Vermonters that are willing and able to talk about Vermont's roots as having basically little to none of the opportunity to engage with people of other cultures or races. I think these are encompassing if kids come forward. And quite frankly, Mark, you and I are of a different era. I would not expect an 11 year old kid to sit down with me and talk about a dial telephone or quite frankly, the one that I learned on, which you just picked up and talked to an operator. So I lean towards giving kids free reign to talk about and engage in whatever they want. This is an educational and life growth opportunity. I think that when they see something that they need to talk about, they will use item number four to create a committee to talk about it. Thank you. Sam LaFave. Thank you, Madam Chair. So I recall during the first part of testimony on this, I asked how we were gonna make sure this wasn't partisan because my feelings before we even got down into the more meat of this is I felt this was partisan. I felt that someone, 11 year old version of me would not have felt welcome to apply to this. And when they're talking about the characteristics of what they wanted, they wanted diversity, they wanted, they went through the gender's race. And so to me, I also don't feel that something that I could support because we're not getting at the part where there's opportunity for people to feel they can apply to this. If they come from different background that might not be interest in any of the things that we're listing out now because I do feel that they are partisan. And I agree if there's, you don't need to debate on the partisan of the 50 kids that were there creating this council. But I have asked, was there any information on what they had to vote on? Is there a little scratch list of what they used to vote these items at the top? Because I do agree that the work went in for them to do this and to vote. But I don't, we have, none of us know what they voted on to get there. And also if we are giving children the opportunity here to get their feet wet on what it's like to sit here, I sit here every single day along with the rest of you. And we talk about things that are dictated to us of what we're gonna talk about. I don't choose what comes in front of this committee. I had an option of different committees for me to go on when thankfully I was elected to be here. I didn't get to choose where I went. So if we're gonna be getting their feet wet on what it's like to be out here in the real world, you don't get to tell people what you're going to do. You work as a team, you work together and you listen from ideas from other people. And to me it's very important that Vermont traditions and conservation is a part of that. Thank you. Mike for Wiki. I wonder if what we're bumping up here is a definition of Vermont traditions. My daughter's born and raised here. One of my daughters in high school, one of her jobs is milking cows, working on a farm. She was also the first girl in her sixth grade class to learn how to code and build her own webpage. I think both of those traditions are Vermont traditions. I would dare say anyone define her traditions as anything different here. So I wonder if we're looking at a pretty narrow definition of the term traditions. So again, I go back to, are we imposing this a very narrow reading of the term traditions? I'll add again, when my daughter went to college, she got a job on the college grounds crew because she knew how to drive a tractor. A year later, she went to Kazakhstan to study linguistics. These are Vermont traditions. And I'm going to push back on anybody that's going to define them any more narrowly than that. Rob LeClaire. Well, I guess I look at this a couple of different ways. As one, you know, we've had the conversation around whether this is too prescriptive or not. Well, this whole thing is prescriptive. We have put guardrails around this as far as how many people can be on it, where they're going to come from. There are state tax dollars that are being invested in this, whether it be for the per diem or the fact that we've got state agencies that are aiding and assisting these folks. I personally don't have a problem saying, could you help us and work on this one particular issue? I don't think that this one issue is going to change the scope or the flavor of this bill whatsoever. And I think I agree with Mr. Higley and Mr. Murakia. I think that our Vermont traditions, as we've known them and probably as they're going to be, are ever evolving. But I don't think that this one particular thing is going to change this bill that substantially. And why can't we put an ask in there? Can you take a look at this particular area for us and maybe help identify that? Time to be hopesky. I am wondering if exactly like Representative LeClaire has pointed out if there is a separate section that can be added as to say that this is an issue that we are particularly interested in hearing from the youth on and not necessarily putting it in this subcommittee, but sort of giving an ask to ask them to pull together a group that can advise us in this area. When we do study committees for all kinds of things, can we add a little study committee to this? Sure, how might we phrase that request? I'm not sure, but I was hearing from what I hear Representative Higley and Representative LeFave and Representative LeClaire putting out and it really came to mind that this maybe isn't a separate subcommittee, but is an ask from the legislature to organize and do a bit of a study committee. So I'm happy to connect with the other representatives in this area to ask them how they would word that if that would meet the need that we're seeing here. All right, Mike and then John. Well, sorry, not Mike McCarthy. I think that might be a way to go. And I would ask them if we're gonna prescribe to ask them to define Vermont traditions. John Gannon. Thanks, I like Tanya's idea and one place it might fit into the bill is that the council is required to annually report to GAVAPS, Senate and House. We could be more prescriptive there, especially in their first year, asking them to comment on this and report back to us with their idea on how we can implement a committee on Vermont traditions or implement that into the overall mission of the youth council. Is there a way that we can phrase that that young people can understand what we mean by Vermont traditions? I mean, I don't think if when I was 12 or 14 I would have been able to come up with a definition of what Vermont traditions is. So is there a different way that we can phrase that that adds a little bit more of a description of what we're looking for? Let me offer the idea that you could use a word like activities that you look forward to partaking of that aren't readily available to you and focus on action rather than an abstract word like traditions, whether it's recreational activities or learning activities that are uniquely Vermont. Okay, Tanya. I, the social worker in me wants to push back and say that if we're asking the youth for their definition of what Vermont traditions mean we can't then define what Vermont traditions mean. We have to intentionally make it vague so that they can define that for themselves. Okay. I'm a very social worker of me. I actually, I'm not gonna apologize. Don't apologize. You're duly elected and I thank you for bringing your perspective. Mark Higley. I agree with Tanya's idea. I think that's possibly a way forward. I don't know just what the wording would be. Maybe Ameren can help us out with that in what section but as far as tradition goes, I mean, for a lot of folks involved with the tradition of hunting and fishing and trapping. I know people hate to hear that word trapping but again, there is a conservation need for that expressed by some. There's the traditions coalition which is a group that has a number of members. They, you maybe know every year they have a event in Essex in regards to a lot of this. I think, you know, it might be good to like you say let them determine what traditions is. But again, you know, I just have such a concern when even last year I had a youth from the local school asked me if I could come and talk to their class in regards to protesting and activism. And I'm just saying, and this is a grade school. And to me, that's not what it's all about as far as, I mean, that's not why I'm here. I've been working at this 13 years now as a representative, you know, in the minority not getting some of the things that I might like to see passed in legislation but addressing it in a respectful manner over the past 13 years. And that's what part of it is and to instruct or try to instill in these kids that the root now is activism and protesting to me is not part of tradition either. I mean, it's been tradition that, you know, Vermon is work hard, get together, you know, and this is the process to me. So, you know, I'd like us to move forward on Tanya's proposal to somehow incorporate this in there and whether it's traditions and outdoor activities or just, you know, I don't know what, but again, and I definitely agree with Representative LaFave as far as, you know, we're told all the time what we need to take up and what we can't take up. So they need to have that, you know, position instilled in their youth group as well. Thank you. John Gannon. So a possible suggestion instead of Vermont traditions is perhaps protecting Vermont's rural character. I think that sort of gets to the same aspect, but, you know, I'm willing to be corrected. Anyone have a thought on that slight change of phrase? Rural character, traditional rural activities and professions, I don't know. I wonder if Ameren has any ideas listening to this from an objective perspective and could distill some of this. And I don't want to put you on the spot, but if you don't, that's fine too. Well, let's leave her to mold that for a moment while I call on Sam LaFave who has her hand up. Thank you, Madam Chair. I like when we add it in professions, that way it gives people the idea and they're, it gives children something to look forward to, to work towards, to grow towards. I liked that addition. Okay. Ameren, any thoughts on how we might condense this and a phrase that we might use? I think where I still am a little unclear is whether we're trying to define this concept or in sort of broad strokes. I mean, I think where I am struggling to put words together is that as soon as you start breaking down traditions into things around rural character that may be in some people's minds leaving out other characteristics. So I'm trying to think of a way to, I'm still thinking. I guess that's what I'm saying. What was the member from Wilmington's suggestion? I was listening, but not close enough, obviously. It was preserving Vermont's rural character. Sounds pretty good. Mike McCarthy? Yeah, I was wondering if, so what we're doing is we're directing them to establish an ad hoc committee, right? So in terms of how to do this, if I sort of heard where the consensus was going there. And if we just define that as something like the committee that will advise us on conservation and the future of Vermont's rural character, then we can let them define what the rural character is, the traditions are, if that satisfies what I think Representative Higley is getting at. So I may have lost track of where we were going with the discussion. Are we thinking about specifying a committee or are we asking the council to report back to us specifically on preserving rural traditions and activities and professions or something? I would say reporting back to us. And I was just looking at, under number two, it says the council should provide advice to the governor and general assembly on policy changes necessary to improve the lives of Vermont youth. I don't know if there could be another paragraph like that that would say something to that effect that the legislature would appreciate the council considering, I don't know just the wording, but again, Representative McCarthy talked about as far as the conservation efforts and preserving Vermont's rural character. I don't know exact wording, but something to that effect. Yeah, I think we're getting there. That's a good phrase. I found you. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Amran. What I've heard so far that might be a collection of the thoughts is hearing the council's thoughts or recommendations on preserving Vermont's traditions and the future of Vermont's rural character, activities and professions. How are we feeling about that? Oh, I'm seeing lots of thumbs up. How exciting. It's always helpful to have someone who's got a way with words to help us condense. Tanya's got her hand up. If we're there, I don't know that I need to add more. Okay. Do we feel like we're there, committee? Well, for one, I certainly appreciate the efforts of the committee. I mean, it's a little piece and I think it's helpful for me in particular and I certainly appreciate it. Super. Sam. Thank you. Thank you all. As Representative Hickley said, it makes the little girl in me happy that maybe somebody my age would have been able to participate in something like this because when I was younger, I wouldn't know. So thank you. Thank you all. Excellent. All right, Amran, are you clear on where you think you should weave that in or do you need some more guidance on that? What I heard is that we were looking at the sort of duties stuff. Sorry, technical problems. All right. We were looking on page seven in subsection three, the State Youth Council's initial provisions. There's a subsection C duties that sets forth a report back. So I think I would put it after subsection C in its own new subsection D. It's really separate from the implementation of the council. So it could a new subsection D requiring a report back, but I don't have a date for that with that coincide with the January 15th, 2023 report in subsection C or should it be sooner? Well, I would think we would want to... Well, I don't know. I guess I'll defer to the committee to think about how this council will initiate itself and gel together. Tanya, do you have a thought on that question? Well, I had a question. So there's two places in the bill where there's reports required. One is on page five on subsection B, the council shall annually report its advice. So I guess I'm curious, are we looking for a one-time initial report or an annual report or both? So for me, there's kind of two places it could land because it's definitely that report piece is what we're talking about. But I just had a question about where? Which? Yep, that's good discussion. Oh, you've got to unmute. You're muted. Sorry, I agree. I think it should maybe be up in that section with the other annual reports by the council. Peter Anthony. I agree with Mark. I think annual is better because I wouldn't be surprised if the interpretation of what we've challenged them to define will evolve over time instead of being a one-shot deal. Is everybody feeling good about that? A placement question. Is it all right if I screen share for a moment? Sure. Oh, can I screen share? You can. I can. We just need to make you a co-host. There you go. Now all I have too many documents open. Okay, can everyone see my screen? Yes. So I was looking at subdivision two and then we can either put it in subdivision B or create a new subdivision C. Mark Higley. Yeah, I would say a new subdivision C would be best. Tanya Vihowski. I'm muted. I was wondering if it might make sense to include, so where I know it already says other committees as it deems necessary, but this feels like it might be a natural resources committee purview and it might be important to name them, but I may be wrong. And I don't have an opinion whether it's within B or a separate subsection underneath B or it's its own section. For me that is, I don't have an opinion. I was just wondering if natural resources needed to be named here as well. Well, I hate to send the group back to report back to a whole bunch of different committees. I think the rationale for having them report back to this committee is that this is the committee that will have created the council. And it would be my hope that if the youth come up with a recommendation or an idea that they want presented to the education committee or to the natural resources committee or any other committee that presenting that in our room would be a conduit to getting the idea on the table in other committees that any one of us could then initiate a bill, sponsoring a bill to achieve what the youth would like to put on the table for another committee to discuss. All right, Amron, do you have the information that you need from us on how to move forward with this? Can I hear what we have right now? Yes, I'm paraphrasing a bit, but it would be the council shall annually report its advice and recommendations to the House and Senate committees on government operations and to any other standing committees, it deems appropriate on the preservation of Vermont's traditions and the future of Vermont's rural character activities and professions. You know, I'm thinking of one of the Vermont traditions that we have seemed to have forgotten here. And that's, Vermont was one of the first states to come out as abolitionist, one of the first states to have a ban of slavery in their constitution. This is a tradition I don't wanna forget that while we're fighting against systemic racism here, we do have some background, a tradition going, including in the Civil War where Vermont sent a higher percentage of men than any other state into battle. So I'm not sure, or I am sure that that's a Vermont tradition that I wanna uphold and that as we're looking to this, if we're gonna start defining Vermont traditions, I don't want that one to be left out. So, Ameren, how would you like to move forward with putting a final draft on the table in front of us? Well, what is your schedule for the next little bit of time? We do have one other bill that we need to take up and finish, and it also coincidentally happens to include you as our legislative counsel. So it's not like I can do some drafting for a few minutes. I think there's probably a few minutes of committee discussion that we need to have before we're ready to move the pay act language. And so I think we could let you go off screen, although we risk then having to fill you in if we needed you to make a change to language that we were considering pay act. So it's sort of, do we take a 15 minute break while we have witnesses in the waiting room or would you like to go off screen and just tune out a bus from our discussion for a few minutes and we're sort of learning on the fly here how we can best operate in this remote meeting world. I am fine going off video for a few minutes if the committee would like to continue the pay act draft, updated draft only has one small change from yesterday. It's a dollar amount, which the witnesses will be able to speak to. So I think I'd be fine if that works for the committee that works for me. I think it does. Who's gonna speak to that? That actually would probably be the Patricia Gable and also maybe Hardy Merrill if he's here. Okay. All right, so why don't we let you go and we'll let the folks in the waiting room in and we'll dive into our next discussion and come back to vote on the youth council in a few minutes when we're done with the pay act.