 Welcome to this Information Services Today webinar on Information Policy, Licensing, and Intellectual Freedom. This webinar addresses content from Part 5, Information Issues, Influences, and Consequences, specifically focusing on Chapters 29, 32, and 35. This webinar is part of a 10-webinar series representing the diverse authors and topics of the second edition of my book, Information Services Today, an Introduction. As the editor, I am thrilled to be presenting this webinar series in conjunction with my textbook, Information Services Today, an Introduction. Hearing directly from the contributing authors as they reflect and share their insights on today's information landscape is a unique opportunity to glean from their expertise both the opportunities and challenges that lie on the horizon. Kate Merrick, one of the book's authors presenting with us in this webinar, stated in her chapter that information professionals have indeed been leaders in the fight for policies that reflect the profession's core values, such as equity of access and intellectual freedom, sometimes at great personal and professional risk. Part 5, Information Issues, Influences, and Consequences explores the profession's ethical code and the ideals of intellectual freedom, including how those principles have been challenged in the past, and how they are likely to be the focus of controversy in the future. It also examines some legal issues related to information access, such as copyright and information licensing. Chapter 29 kicks off this section with a chapter devoted to information policy and its evaluation. Chapter 32 addresses the complex issues in information licensing. Chapter 35 tackles the difficult issue of intellectual freedom and how technology, social change, and the changing publishing landscape affect intellectual freedom. A tremendous value to this book are its contributing authors. These authors were specifically chosen for their expertise, passion, and commitment, not only to the field of information science, but also to the professional development of tomorrow's information leaders. I would like to now introduce the panel of authors for this webinar. Dr. Kate Merrick, with her background as director and professor of the School of Information Studies at Dominican University and her expertise in information policy, introduces information policy as it pertains to information professionals. She provides a framework for policy analysis and awareness, and she also highlights the important role of information policy issues in a democratic society. She is the author of Chapter 29 on information policy. Charlotte Lair is licensing program strategist at Lyrasys, where she has worked since 2015. She previously held positions at the Mobius Consortium in Missouri and the Missouri State Library. She is co-author of Chapter 32 on information licensing with her colleagues at Lyrasys, Jill Grog, and Celeste Feather. And then we have also Jamie LaRue, who has been the director of the Office for Intellectual Freedom since January 2016. Before then, he was the director of the Douglas County, Colorado Libraries for almost 24 years. He is the author of The New Inquisition, published by Libraries Unlimited in 2007. He is the author of Chapter 35, Intellectual Freedom. There are six key themes in the second edition of information services today in introduction. Chapters 29, 32, and 35 address four of those key themes. These chapters all provide an overview state of the field beginning with the history of the information organization and key influencers to forecast future trends and issues that will require information professionals to remain forward thinking. To address how libraries and information centers will remain valuable entities in their communities, but to thrive they will need to remain creative, innovative, and technologically advanced. Additionally, they address new competencies, roles, and opportunities for information professionals. And finally, they also address challenges and key issues the field and for the sustainability and essentialness of information organizations. Charlotte and Jamie, what are your interpretation of these themes and how do they specifically relate to your chapter's content? Kate, let's begin with you. Hi everyone. I'm really glad to be here and to talk about these issues because the chapter on information policy really gives a broad kind of disciplinary overview of the concept of information policy. I think it's really important in this webinar to talk in terms of implications for the individual perspective and the own organizational setting in the relationship to your customers and to the wider environment. So I think a key issue here is to consider and to kind of be thoughtful about what is the role of the library and society. When you're thinking about this, every time when I talk about society or community, I'm really talking about in your own particular environment. So relate that kind of specifically as you think about my comments. But as society evolves, the library needs to evolve and the role of the library and society also needs to evolve. So we continue to need to start with that question and also as I say throughout the chapter, and we'll say throughout the webinar again, we need to start with the values. And the values that we hold dear in our society and in a democratic society, and again at the micro level of our own organization and for our own customers and our own community. So how is your community and your customer base evolving? And how is our current policy environment evolving? Are we restricting innovation through those policies? So as you look at those, particularly at the community and as the community evolves, we also have to partner that with an understanding of what's happening in government. We can constantly review our own policies and evaluate those, but also think of that within the context of are the policies actually facilitating innovation or are they providing barriers. One of the reasons, one of the examples that I use with that is what's happening with immigration. So you need to go back and look at your policies regarding access to make sure that all of the members of your community have access to materials. There are challenges and key issues within the context of information policy. Certainly it's a tremendous, tremendously challenging stage for the profession as we try to be on the forefront of policy issues, such as equity of access as I mentioned, which is so critical in our current, for example, net neutrality environment, where we're looking at changes that have to do with tiered access to the internet. Specifically requiring us to be forward thinking as we look at that what's coming what's happening with a political environment, how indeed does it affect access issues for our own community. Again, as we look at this, we want to make sure that we're able to look at what's happening politically so that we can make decisions about how we can stay a step ahead of that locally, if we possibly can. Thank you, Kate. What are your thoughts. I totally agree with Kate looking at things at multiple scales on the field of librarianship is dynamic and requires creativity innovation and a certain level of risk taking in order to remain valuable to our communities. Understanding the history of information organizations and key influencers to forecasting future trends is essential because current practice and information organization builds on that of the past. We tend to going to transformation simultaneously that are impacting information licensing. The first transformation is a shift from physical to digital. This phenomenon created by the advent of the internet is dramatically changing the rules for how information is used, and thereby changing how collections are developed and managed, because licensing is an integral part of creating a transformation new competencies roles and opportunities are emerging for information licensing professionals in order to continue to provide collections that remain valuable to the communities they serve. At the same time, we're undergoing a second transformation where libraries are shifting their focus from not just providing collections but also services associated with these collections. This shift is attributed to the advent of the internet as well as many of the transactions of these new services are facilitated through digital tools and interfaces. This shift has generated an increased need for licensing licensing specialists and created opportunities for those with the appropriate skills to understand, translate and advocate for how collections and these new services may be used by their communities. Thank you very much, Charlotte and Jamie. Well, it's a great pleasure to be with you all and I'm kind of echoing I think some of the same ideas. This is very much a time of change. So we're seeing technological, social and professional change. And all of these things have an intellectual freedom of dimension. I put the phrase appear Elvis has left the building because I think that we now live in a time where we're more connected to our communities. So many of the intellectual freedom issues that are coming out depend upon the, we can no longer be the passive person waiting behind the desk we have to be out, engaged with and talking to people in our community about emerging issues. To go back to this, the same sort of thing that Charlotte talked about with the changes that we're seeing and publishing a whole flood of new content is coming into our culture and touching on our collections and informing the dialogue within our communities. So we have to figure out how to position ourselves as arbiters in some ways of this new content so we're not just consuming the content anymore. We're also creating it and moderating some of these debates. And then finally, I think the last big dimension about intellectual freedom is a more robust advocacy. We can just again passively defend collections we need to get the word out about the fundamental brand of the library, why we stand for free speech and why we are defenders of the First Amendment. And what that means in the daily practice of our profession. Thank you to all of you for sharing some of your thoughts about some of the themes and some of the things that are changing in the field. Did you wanted to see if you had any comments on some of the things that are further observations, based on some of the things that other speakers had to say. I look forward to reading these other chapters. Yes, very good. Okay, we'll keep going. Okay, so let's now direct our attention to today's information landscape. The first edition of this book came out three years ago. And as you know, the field of library and information science is in constant flux. So what are some of the key changes as they relate to your chapter's content that have occurred since the first edition came out three years ago. So let's start with you, Kate. Thanks, Sandy. So actually the changes that are taking place in information policy and the information policy landscape. Don't really have so much to do with the text of the chapter, because once again, that's more in terms of the concepts of information policy and those are all still very much in place. I think there's two key areas where issues of information policy have shifted, though in the last several years. And one of course comes with a change in administration and the significant tilt in values from social equity to commerce and profit. So once again, the deconstruction of net neutrality is a prime example. And continuing to use that example, the other key area where policy issues are changing is really the speed at which these changes are taking place. So at the national level, the open comment period, again using that neutrality as an example. That open comment period is really designed to give the public a chance to weigh in and has also been used as a time of deliberation and consideration as part of the democratic process. So the values are changing at the very highest levels and technology is being used in ways that do not always facilitate the democratic process. So the fact that we have one political party in charge of both the administrative and legislative branches of government speeds up this policy creation and revision. So compromise and debate is much less needed without the diversity of points of view in the decision making conversation. And so those suggested policy changes can take place much more quickly. So that of course has implications in terms of the public need to be constantly aware of what's taking place what the timelines are and so forth. And then I would I would also say within this context not to forget the impact of the budget. So at the national level, again, we're seeing budget changes that create significant limitations to implementation of policies that are already in place. And that really impact things like equity of access and that impact programs that support universal services and things that libraries value. So for me in answering this question I would say that the key changes are not in the conceptual issues in the chapter but in the values of the national leadership, which of course has tremendous impact on information policy issues. Thank you very much Kate. And Charlotte, what are your thoughts. Yes, and what Kate mentioned trickles down when you start delving into the realm of licensing I'm going to highlight three key changes that we've noticed. The first being technological innovations driven by user demands. For instance, sharing content of articles or books through interlibrary loan has been a long time user demand. However, in the digital realm, technological advances in interlibrary loan specifically of ebooks remains contentious as publishers often see digital forms of sharing as a threat to revenue streams. Due to the growing influence of creators and consumers of information in the industry publishers have been developing and providing as a new service read only shareable toll free links, giving full text access to articles and even ebooks. Other user demands such as data mining force all stakeholders to remember that has access to and use of digitized content mature so do the accompanying technologies. The second key change is the evolution of pricing models publishers and libraries both are feeling the effects of open access initiatives, both established and emerging traditional pricing and usage models do not apply in the open access realm. We're already seeing changes to licensing practices and the associated pricing models of rather large publishers due to libraries and consortia negotiating transitional offsetting agreements, which support transitions to open access in a transparent and sustainable fashion. The third key change we've seen is publisher consolidation and large company mergers. While the number of libraries and consortia remain relatively constant. There are fewer independent companies on the other side of the negotiation table. Increased publisher consolidation introduces challenges when to previously independent publishers with unique cultural and business norms merge libraries can find themselves re negotiating terms once thought settled and standard. Third terms that information organizations thought were settled become unsettled and what was once unambiguous and licensing has become less so. Thank you, Charlotte. Jamie, what about you. A lot of great points there. To kind of build on some of this what to race through six big topics that I tried to touch on in the chapter. It is true that we're seeing a big consolidation of publishing under just, you know, fewer and fewer players but it's also the case we've seen this extraordinary explosion of new writing, most of which does not yet appear in libraries. The first book was kind of what kicked off the revolution independent publishing self publishing together we now have three times as many new titles a year, as we did in 2010. And so most of those are these are voices that are not yet reflected in our collections, and intellectual freedom is not just about fighting censorship it's about giving people a place at the table. We're trying to identify free speech in these new emerging voices. That's important because, as both libraries and publishers are trying to better reflect the change in demographics of the nation. So nine out of the 10 most frequently challenged titles in 2015 were by or about diverse populations. And so our programs are still very they're very much lagging behind these demographic shifts of way more people of color LGBT stories that just are not coming out of mainstream publishing. So that's a deep long standing issue that is very much a part of today's landscape in the social world kind of as Kate was talking about we have political polarization you know changed values agenda. And to your point that things can happen far more quickly they do but with far less consensus. You know so the political processes now don't seem to be about building some sort of shared platform it's about pushing through whatever your side has. And we're seeing that very much in challenges coming to libraries where one side or the other seeks to silence the opposing view. Another big issue here in the social world is overprotective parenting where where we go from the 1970s generational latch key children to now almost suffocated children who are supervised every moment of the day. A lot of pressure on educational institutions and school libraries we're seeing a loss of school librarians we're seeing an increase incidents of self censorship, which they admitted in 2016 a survey by school library journal at the university level we have everything from trigger warnings firings of professors for things that used to be considered free speech. We have protest for speakers who were invited and disinvited we have violence on the campus. So a lot of key issues there that are heating up in ways we haven't seen at universities in a while. Internet issues of filtering is kind of making a resurgence a lot of concerns about that. And I'm even starting to see challenges now to public libraries and school libraries for library databases such as EBSCO. So the internet is a whole new realm of challenge materials. And finally, I think again to get back to the advocacy theme libraries have to find a way to make our issues more visible. And so that's activities like we've done ban books week for a while now we're talking about doing a choose privacy work week. So have to be a little more media savvy. Thank you so much. You've all raised some really interesting and important trends. I wonder, many of you talked about the importance of just or how quickly things are changing and whether that's from a policy standpoint or technology or pricing models for licenses or publishing They're all I mean there's a common theme of change across all of the areas that you've been talking about. So how do you recommend that people in the field kind of stay on top of all of that change and make sure that they are well positioned to address these changing this this rapidly changing landscape. I would say this is Kate. I would say it's really an important issue. I mean we really have to pay attention to the fact that things are changing so quickly and that actually our administration uses chaos as a tool. So that we need to filter out the noise if we possibly can and really is I can't think zoom in on those issues that are most important you can't really challenge every single thing I probably get 20 emails a day in my inbox from different groups are are really lobbying to have you participate and I think that's so important. But we also have to be able to filter out and zoom in on what we consider most important. And I think that's just it. We just have to acknowledge that's an ongoing challenge. And I would like to add that you know I read a lot every day I have in my feedly a lot of blog feeds just so I can keep up with everything. But it's not just about keeping up. It's also about as far as you know gathering the information it's also about the action libraries are typically kind of slow and moving and making policy changes and and you know creating and some level of action. We need to maybe accept that there's a certain level of risk we were willing to take so that we can move more quickly along with these trends. And I think it's obviously reading a whole bunch going to conferences you know reading a book such as the one that is about to come out. And I think the kind of Decay's point I try to figure out a media strategy which things am I going to try to follow if you can't keep up with everything you have to say what are the reputable ones and trying to identify sources that you touch base with regularly. And then the last piece that I think gets too little time for all of us is time to reflect on all this what does it mean. And so I think conferences again to find a way to build a advisory board of friends and colleagues so you can say what happened today and what are we supposed to do about it. Great. Thank you all. Those are great points and something that I think we all need to stay on top of and it's going to be an ongoing challenge. So let's now direct our attention. This is a good segue because we're going to switch our attention to the future. So what trends or emerging issues will impact the field of library and information science as it relates to your chapter's topic and topic. So let's turn to you Kate. Thanks Sandy. So I think both Jamie and Charlotte had done a great job of actually articulating the specific issues that are before us now and in the short term. But again here I want to go back to the issues and values to really think about what values do we hold dear. And the fact that really we're seeing a shift in those values in our national administration towards commerce and profit. And that's really not a new shift. I think that's something that we've been experiencing in the United States for quite a while. You know decades really. We have to really pay attention to you know the elections. Are we electing people that reflect our values. And I think that one of the trends that's happening is that people are getting really to the point people as in a lot of individuals across the country are seeing the potential to make change through engaging in the democratic process. So I think it is you know I'm hoping that the values that we hold dear in terms of equity of access some of those core values that we would talk about intellectual freedom of course are really I think it's going to be important to stay very engaged in a democratic process. And that those the trend is hopefully that there will be more engagement at that level. But we need to look at our local policies as well. Are we facilitating or hampering our ability to address these policies such with our local policies so The example of collection development. So Jamie was talking about new writing and new ways of publishing to our collection development policies reflect those. So when you talk about information policy. It's not really only the big national policies that are so critical. But how can we work with those local trends and the trends within the profession to make sure that all of our policies in terms of Access and diversity of ideas and so forth are reflected in our organizations. I think stay involved stay engaged because those trends in society. Again are reflected in the way that we conduct our organizations and I'll just refer back to a comment that I made in the first part of our discussion and that is that We need to think about our own organization. No matter if it's a public library a lot of things I think we discussed tend to default to a public library setting but we need to expand our thinking things of all kinds of information organizations. Thank you Kate. Charlotte what are your thoughts. Well as we've been saying the only constant and in libraries and the world we're in is change and that's happening in licensing as well so tomorrow's information landscape will be shaped by some of the dynamics that in this case I'll mention Academic libraries but I think all types are facing today as described by Roger Schoenfeld is the director of the libraries and scholarly communication program at Ithaca SNR. He created the graphic on this slide to illustrate some of the most significant dynamics. He describes the graphic as follows quote libraries are transforming in terms of their collections towards electronic collections towards shared collections towards open access and towards distinctive holdings. Complexities abound for discovery access processing and preservation and libraries are also transforming beyond collections towards a partnership with scholars and students in support of research teaching and learning workflows. This is the most important strategic shift to achieve this shift the nature of the librarian role is transforming beyond a selector or provider and towards an enabler and a partner end quote. The basics of licensing have fallen into place since the 1990s and evolution of core terms will continue based on changing needs of libraries and its users along with advances in technology. With this maturity and widespread prevalence of licensing as the primary avenue through which organizations acquire access to information as well as services. There is a movement to use the license as a vehicle to advocate for and obtain new organizational and user rights in order for information organizations to enable and partner with the end user in new ways. Emerging and unforeseen changes in technology and economics ensure that licensing remains a vital and imperative core function for information organizations going forward. Thank you so much Sharla and Jamie. So I guess as I look at the intellectual freedom emerging trends like the landscape as it's shaping up. I really want to issue a call for advocacy by which I mean turning outward. And so the ideas that we need to be really paying attention to and being part of local media. The outreach has to be something that falls into the category of what I think of is cataloging our community. That means knowing who the players are knowing what the issues are before they get to be big and being having a chance to influence them early on as conveners and interviewers and people that stand up for a value. One of the key things that we do at LA and something that we do for the freedom to read foundation is the importance of litigation. And so if somebody is a particularly obnoxious case comes up. One of the democratic tools that we have to challenge it is to issue a case is to stand up and say we'll fight this one all the way to the Supreme Court. We're generally speaking the Supreme Court has been one of a powerful check on the attempt to silence opposition. There's still a great willingness to open up dialogue. And on the last big thing that I'd like to kind of focus on is the need for us to do consistent messaging for far too long. The library community talks only to itself and it changes its messages every year to when it does talk to the community in such a way that we're not sending a consistent message out there. And so as memes start to spread through our society we have to have a strong consistent repetition of messages that clearly define what we stand for and start to move hearts and minds. Thank you so much Jamie. As I was listening to all of you speak on this. I felt I was really struck by the amount of the your the active kind of role that you're all have portrayed that our field needs to really engage in, you know engage in the democratic process we need to partner we need to advocate and turn outward and I wonder if you have a question. Do you have anything more that you'd like to observe about that or anything else that others had to say in this section. I'll just jump in to say that's a wonderful story that we've been supporting more and more people where the librarian is standing up as the community convener. And so they say I'll identify an issue that's not an easy one, and it will model what civic behavior looks like and everyone will be treated with respect and the library now becomes the shared space where you have important conversations. I think we have to own that space. If we want us to continue to advocate for the values we believe in. Thank you Jamie. Anybody else. And I would agree with that and it's something that we also need to do internally. I don't know if we necessarily, we like to talk a lot and discuss a lot but the, the, the advocacy internally with the, the stakeholders that we all work with what including publishers and vendors and engaging more with those conversations so that it aligns with policies that that we create and want to follow in our communities. Thank you, Charlotte. I'd follow up to and I really like what Jamie said about we fall into the trap of only talking to ourselves. I think that's so dangerous. And I think we love sharing stories about our own libraries and so forth and what's happening with our communities, but we need to go outside and really share those stories more broadly and also want to follow up on the concept of the space. I think as we talk about civic engagement and so forth to invite those civic conversations to take place within our spaces again not just public libraries, spaces but also academic library spaces school library spaces and organizations as well. So the space is a key issue and a key area of potential for us to really celebrate as we move forward in these divisive times. I can slip in one more. I feel like one of the big issues that I'm seeing that's almost the central dialogue within the profession right now is a conflict between intellectual freedom and social justice. And I think that you know as Charlotte was saying we have to talk about this because they are not mutually exclusive. And it's something that very much defines that community shift and also a professional shift as a new generation of librarians comes in and we have to reassess what these values and our infrastructure looks like. And Jamie, it would have been interesting to have had you speak we do have a chapter that focuses on diversity and equity and social justice, but we didn't pair they're not in the same section so we didn't pair you but that certainly that is an important issue and that would be an interesting dialogue to have. Excellent. Let's move forward. So now we've addressed the changes of the past few years and the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead at the core of the information landscape are the people who work in these organizations providing services to the communities that they serve. This leads us to focus on today's information professional. So what advice do you have for the new information professional to meet the needs of tomorrow's information landscape and based on your areas of expertise what are some of the key competencies information professionals will need to succeed in meeting the needs of the communities and organizations that they serve. So Kate will start with you. So I think this discussion is really going to mirror a lot of what we've already talked about in this webinar, and I think all three of us are probably going to say some of the same things. In terms of advice and key competencies. When you some word competencies I also like to add in the word dispositions, because really this is an approach is like learning how to be engaged, because that's one of the keywords here is to stay engaged, and stay informed and this is just so so vital in terms of how you approach your your professional life. And I think we do have to be focused. And we do have to advocate and we have to do all those things with an understanding of the profession and the needs of the community. So think community analysis is also a huge part of this. So don't depend on a census report from 10 years ago you really need to do ongoing community analysis as that shifts. Also, we've made allusions on several of our comments already to the value of partnerships, and we just talked about talking to one another but partnerships across lines within the community. So really again this this concept of a competency to be able to do that to know the know your information and so forth but it's a disposition as well. How do you approach that. So I'd also like to comment on the needs of focusing within your own area of expertise. So there's different policy issues and different skillsets and so forth is needed for something for you services for example in terms of advocacy and intellectual freedom issues and policy issues in your own organization. But there's also area of specialization and digitization digital preservation archives publishing cataloging everything so stay focused on the values within your own area of professional expertise. And you know once again I would just say information policy is not just those big issues. It's the local level policies that you can implement and continually revise so that you can serve the needs of of your own community so those macro issues the global to local to individual as we look at the values of our organization and how we want to play that out in our professional lives. Thank you Kate. So, Charlotte. The basic core competencies task force did a very thorough job when developing competencies for the electronic resources librarian who in most situations is responsible for information licensing for their organization. The task force organized these competencies under the seven broad topics you see on the slide. All of these are incredibly important. However, for the sake of time I'll highlight for the key competencies from this list that the information licensing professionals need to succeed. First it's imperative that they understand the life cycle of electronic resources, especially as it is positioned within scholarly communications. All the while maintaining a thorough knowledge of licensing and the legal framework in which it all takes place. I must demonstrate familiarity with how and for human organization licenses content, as well as the concepts implications and contract language in order to obtain the least restrictive most library and user friendly licensing terms possible. Second, they must develop skills of communicating effectively promptly and consistent consistently verbally and in writing with a broad range of internal and external audiences. I must note that communication is a two way enterprise. So information licensing professionals need to learn about and listen to those with whom they are communicating in order to build strong long lasting relationships. Third information licensing professionals are working with concepts and methods that are very much in flux and so they must have an abiding commitment to ongoing professional development through continuing education, attendance at professional conferences webinars, following related professional literature as well as blogs and lists serves. And finally, they must practice personal qualities of flexibility, open mindedness, and the ability to function in a dynamic and rapidly changing environment, a high level of tolerance for complexity and ambiguity is necessary to be successful in this field. Thank you so much, Charlotte. So I'll turn it over to you, Jamie. We certainly do have to be open to an ambiguous environment. I guess as I think about the essential skills I've learned in part be being in my office that the lessons of the past are deeply felt very important and fundamental to our brand as librarians. And that's what intellectual freedom is about library Bill of Rights was our first significant professional statement. There is a very detailed and comprehensive infrastructure of law about free speech. And that's what I learn every day about the importance of knowing and understanding the content and the processes for policy and how to respond to challenges that's that that's the essential skill to defend intellectual freedom to be deeply familiar with this underlying principle. And then I think that I think the second thing kind of ties together with both Kate and Charlotte were talking about is that in this complex environment, how do you manage all the relationships. I think that we're used to still in our profession of thinking about these individual transactions, but we're seeing in the profession a shift to working with groups of people and working with larger political units. And so that means we have to be more systematic about managing what we know about the people around us and that means showing up being present where important discussions are taking place, paying attention so that we're doing deep research and interviews about the topics that are under consideration. And the last one is remembering to stay in touch. No, cultivate those relationships and stay in touch with people so that we are there to help them and they know that they need to be there to help us. Thank you, Jamie. I think you all have provided excellent advice and I think there's also some good synergies across some of the things that you said as well I wonder if you have any further thoughts or comments to to reflect on this. On muted, I think the important thing to take away from me is our communities need librarians, and I don't think there has ever been a more exciting time for us to be in this profession or to have the opportunity to become true leaders to establish a more civil society. Thank you, Jamie. I would follow up on that too and to remind everyone, and this all can consistently that libraries are really a trusted brand Jamie just used the word brand a few minutes ago. And the trust is that there's so there is so much distrust with different organizations and I think that libraries still are extremely trusted that just read another Pew research report recently about the level of trust that communities hold and individuals hope for libraries. So I think that gives us a really strong foundation to go ahead and push forward and these things that we do value so much. Thank you so much, Kate, and all of all of our speakers. So I'd like to now, as we wrap up I'd like to thank Kate Merrick, Charlotte there and Jamie librew for joining us today in this webinar on information policy information licensing and intellectual freedom. I am so grateful for the insights and advice that you've shared in this webinar and for your contribution to information services today and introduction. Thank you for joining us. I hope you gained a deeper understanding of the changes challenges and opportunities within the field of library and information science. And for more information, please check out the supplementary materials that are available to you via the online supplements. Thank you again for joining us.