 BHP-Bilton. You have their biographies in front of you, but we have J.P. Gladu, who is the presidency of the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business. We then have Mr. James Ensor, who has come all the way from Australia, who is the group senior manager for social policy for BHP-Bilton. Then we have Mr. Sam Woods, who is the business development and government affairs manager for the Navajo Transitional Energy Company, who has come from New Mexico to be with us. Then we have Mr. Emmanuel Boulez, who has come all the way from New York Avenue. He is the principal environmental specialist, environmental and social safeguards division of the Inter-American Development Bank to provide a multi-lateral development bank perspective. I think we have the right group of people for this discussion. Without further ado, I am going to turn the floor over to my new friend Mr. Gladu. J.P.? No, just you can do it from there. Wonderful to be here. Thank you so much. What I wanted to do is set the context of the organization, the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business, the context of Aboriginal people in Canada, and the sort of the past, the current and the future when it comes to the new reality of Aboriginal business and the relationships between Canada's Indigenous people and the resource sector, particularly the mining. I will try and stay focused on that as much as I can. So Aboriginal, it is an umbrella term for Inuits, First Nations and Métis. I will flip-flop between Indigenous as well, and we are recognized in Canada's constitution. So our organization was founded by Murray Coffler about 30 years ago, and he was the founder of Shoppers Drug Mart, and it is similar. It is akin to Walgreen, so it is a substantial company. When Mr. Coffler came out of one of his stores in Calgary, he recognized that Canada's Indigenous people were not in a great state. We have struggled, but we have made some significant advances since then. So 30 years ago, we challenged the government at the time and said, we need to do something about this, and they really didn't do a whole lot, so Mr. Coffler said, okay, I am going to do something, so we started the CCAB. Now what sort of, Canada's national sport, do you know what it is? You might think it is hockey, but it is not, although we are pretty good at it. You guys are very good at it. It is actually lacrosse. It is an Indigenous game, but Canada's other sport for a very long time has been ping-pong, and the way this game has been operating. We have got the federal paddle on this side, and we have got the provincial paddles like this, and you can guess who is in the middle. And for the longest time, because we are the Fidisha responsibility, and by the way, I am on a Schnabe from Northern Ontario, so I am Indigenous from Canada. The way this game is gone is when we wanted to do something in our territories, which is akin to BLM lands here in the United States, we go to the feds, and the feds will say, well, listen, that is the provincial territory, so across the table we go, and we go to the provinces, hey, we want to do some resource activities, we have got some partnerships, we want to do something, and the provinces, well, on the side of the table, you are actually the Fidisha responsibility of the federal government. So this game has been going on for a very long time, and I don't know, I kind of got dizzy, and I think my ancestors are getting kind of dizzy, but the point is that industry corporate candidate is starting to wise up that this is a terrible game to play, because they are sitting on the sidelines and they are going, where is this ball landing? And, you know, the role of government sometimes is to manage your liabilities, but when you are looking at your butt half the time, you are not actually looking forward to where the opportunities are, and Canada being a very strong, natural resource rich country, when we talk especially about mining, there is so much opportunity. So the industry said, okay, enough of this game, so they are starting to come to the table now, and they are creating viable, long-term, sustainable business relationships with our communities. It has also been driven because we have had over 200 court cases that have landed in the favor of our people. We have won over 90% of the court cases that we have entered into, so we have got a lot of political and legal clout now, and now we are starting to develop the business savvy, and the opportunity to partner with industry is being embraced by a lot of communities, not all communities, and the other thing you have to realize, we have over 633 nations across the country, 52 different languages, we have Inuit, we have Métis, so you can't paint it with one brush, so I want to give you the broad overview. So for the longest time, our people were very much interested in jobs, and then we were interested in business and part of the supply chain to make sure that we are at the table participating in the economy, and now we are actually becoming partners on many of the resource projects, extraction, primary producers, or partners with many of the companies across the country. The more progressive companies like Camico and BHP, for instance, are some of the major employers of our people, and they also provide a lot of contract opportunities to our communities in trucking and drilling, and so on. There isn't a sector that our people don't participate in, so much so that in 2006, there was a census that was done, there was a last one, that were 37,000 Aboriginal businesses, so this is about empowering our people through business, and if you can think of a number in your head of what you think the Aboriginal GDP, now, mind you, Canada is about 33 or 34 million people, and our people represent about 4.5% of that. We are contributing $32 billion to Canada's economy. $13 billion of that is actually coming from our people, and that's because of business. And when you empower a people through business, you're actually adding to the bottom line of your country, and if you're not, then you look at the balance sheet of our people, and traditionally, and there's still these systemic barriers where we've got the highest on education, unemployment, infant mortality, and the list goes on and on, those are a red mark on your country, and so Canada really, and we're still trying to step up the game. Now, back to the mining resource sector. There isn't a piece of land that the resource sector touches in Canada that is not going to impact one or two or three or a dozen of our native, our Indigenous communities, so it's in the best interest of corporate Canada to sit down and get to the table to talk about business, because what happens when they don't, and there are many cases of this in Canada, it disrupts projects, and when you disrupt projects, it costs companies money. Thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars every day if a project is blocked, because our people have a lot of political clout, and there's no reason that we should be going down that road, so it's about investing in relationships, it's about investing in business relationships. Let's see, what else can I address from an industry perspective? I think some of the challenges that, and we also do a lot of research in-house, a lot of the challenges, because we've been on a forced hiatus as Indigenous people in Canada for a very long time. I like to remind audiences that we were the first economic engine in Canada, and actually it had major world implications. Remember that thing called the fur trade? Well, our people were the economic engine behind us. We have a lot of entrepreneurial spirit behind us, but because we've been on a forced hiatus for so long, we're just getting back to the table in the last couple decades. We saw some learning curves, getting access to capital to participate in a meaningful way, and resource development continues to be a challenge, business planning, getting our people up to date when it comes to skills and training is also a challenge, and industry wants to embrace that, and the challenge is getting on the ground and building those relationships. Just two other quick little points before I pass on the mic. It's two things often when industry asks me, you know, what can we do as a sector, or what can we do as a company to build relationships? And the one thing I say is, first go into a community without an agenda, you sit down, go fishing, it's awesome, go do ceremony, go to powwows, whatever the community wants to do, just embrace that, and then start to listen, and then start to realize that recognize that there is an indigenous government there, but there's also community leaders that aren't in the government. And pay attention to who those leaders are, because if you support their business aspirations, they're going to develop an economy in their community, and they're going to be the ambassadors for your company as you support their business growth. And so that relationship starts at the grassroots. The other thing is that when we talk about companies and the embracing of our people into not only their frontline staff, not only into their managers, not only in their executives and their executive VPs, but also at the board level, there is a real challenge in Canada in that we look at our board structure and no offense to anybody, it is pale, male, and stale. And I mean that with all due respect, but that's the truth. And if you look at the board structure, that is how it is. So how is that representative of the constituents or a country that is so multi-cultural? How is that going to build in the needs of communities and minorities? And Canada is a big, immigrating country. So embracing indigenous people at your highest levels within the board structure is also one way to build business relationships. And just think about the impact that that has in the indigenous community. If you go to the people and say, we have one of yours at the highest level of ours, and we're serious about building relationships. JP, before I ask you to pass the baton on, I want to just what I said this to you in the green room is I do believe a significant amount of learning is going to happen both from the Canadian experience and the Australian experience. So could you talk about a constructive experience that a provincial government in Canada has done to help facilitate this? And then could you also speak to anything in the last 20 years? Doesn't have to be the current Canadian government. Could be the current Canadian government, federal government. Could you talk about something constructive that you've seen done over time by the federal government in Canada? If you talked about either of those, just you would for a second. The federal government has, you know, for the longest time invested in entrepreneurs. They've had some really strong programs like Aboriginal Business Canada. It's supported for many years the business aspirations of our people across the country. It financed 30 to 40, 50 percent of the start-up of small businesses, which contributed to the number. That number I said, I'm not sure if I said 37,000 Aboriginal businesses across the country. So I think that did have a strong, very constructive piece. Unfortunately, programs and the resources are starting to evaporate and that's another story. From a provincial perspective, the provinces also understand that ping-pong game that I've been talking about. And the fiduciary responsibility, it's the federal government sort of backing off on their program. So the provinces are starting to pick up. They understand that if they invest in and co-invest with industry to help train our people, that that's going to be beneficial because then they get more of a tax base, you get more projects going through, then everybody starts getting taxed and it's good for the economy. The one thing, the highlight that I want to point out is that in Ontario just recently, Premier Nguyen, and I'm a huge fan of her, her government, the provincial government in Ontario just the last six months or eight months ago had delineated a billion dollars out of their budget for road infrastructure into the Ring of Fire, which is a major potential for chromite, nickel and so on up in Northern Ontario, just actually north of my community. And I hope the federal government is going to be able to do that because industry is looking for security and support from government and if the province steps up and the industry steps up and the community steps, I think it's a really good mixture for success. Thanks, Jay. Thank you very much. James, thanks for coming all the way from Australia to be with us. What I was saying earlier to you in the green room is is that if we're going to have more infrastructure in the world, we're going to have more urbanization in the world, we're going to have more use of high technology in the world, we're going to have more cars in the world, then we're going to have more money. And so the conversation we're having today is going to be more salient, not less salient and success of companies to be very, having social license to operate success and having win-win relationships with local communities, especially and including indigenous communities is going to have increased salience. Thanks for being here. Not at all and thank you Dan for the invitation and the opportunity to contribute to this very important discussion. From the perspective of a global resources company, the threshold question is why is this issue so important? In the case of a company like BHP Billiton, many of the company's operations around the world, whether they be in North or South America, Australia, throughout the Asia-Pacific are either located on or adjacent to indigenous peoples' lands. Sometimes those lands are formally recognised through legal and title processes. In other instances, there isn't formal recognition. And because of the nature of the international resources sector and particularly large companies like BHP Billiton, we're not fast-moving consumer goods companies and the sense of if you're a fast-moving consumer goods company and you blow your relationship with your host community or your host government, you might be able to then subcontract another factory in another country and move on. That's not the nature of the global resources sector. A company like BHP Billiton, when it makes an investment in a mining operation in any part of the world, generally that will involve tens of billions of dollars of capital investment and the company's presence will be anywhere between 80 and 120 years or longer. Now, what does that mean for how you exercise your citizenship responsibilities as a responsible corporate actor? I think one of the things that it means is that particularly where your host communities are indigenous communities, you have an opportunity to establish long-lasting relationships, in fact intergenerational relationships with those communities and those relationships are often a foundation stone to the sustainability of your operation and you also have an opportunity to those relationships to bring about very significant change and improvement in people's lives through your presence and the way you engage in your work. Now, interestingly for BHP Billiton, this understanding of our role and this opportunity led to the company recently developing a specific indigenous peoples policy statement which is now a public document on our website and what that does is it articulates our understanding of indigenous peoples experience around the world where often indigenous peoples have profound and very special connections to land to waters and that that's linked to their physical, their spiritual and economic wellbeing and we also understand that in many parts of the world indigenous peoples have suffered marginalisation and disadvantage and other forms of social exclusion. So acknowledging that reality in those dynamics as a company the policy statement works to integrate the views and concerns of indigenous peoples into our decision making processes and our operating models and there are three particular aspects that we believe as a responsible corporate citizen we can contribute to the benefit of indigenous peoples for our presence. Those three aspects are economic empowerment social development needs and cultural wellbeing. We can see briefly on each of those. In terms of economic empowerment indigenous peoples in many parts of the world are now deriving very significant benefits from advanced and leading practice extractive industries operations. So they include through procurement through project equity through intergenerational trusts that provide annuity streams across multiple generations. And some of those those arrangements are reflected in some of the operations that BHP Ability now has in some parts of the world. So for example where there are opportunities for indigenous peoples to become partners in the value creation aspects of our businesses we require our businesses around the world to develop local procurement plans to purchase goods and services from local businesses including indigenous businesses in operations where we are working with an adjacent to indigenous communities in particular. Now the scale of that investment for a company of this size can be quite significant. So in Australia alone last financial year in that 12 month period the company purchased $130 million worth of goods and services from indigenous owned and controlled enterprises just in Australia. So that's a significant economic contribution that the company can make. But procurement is just one avenue around economic empowerment. And recently BHP Ability for example in Canada signed opportunities agreements with five First Nations in Saskatoon and that relates to their participation in our Jensen potash project. Those agreements they create mutually beneficial opportunities across a range of domains employment, business development community development and other areas. And as I said earlier these operations often last many many decades so these can be sustainable long term benefits. Interestingly another aspect of economic empowerment is an example is the company's work in a long standing relationship with the Navajo Nation that's now endured I think for around 50 years. The success of that relationship and the practices established through that relationship received recognition by the United Nations Global Compact recently and by the Harvard University through its Harvard project on American Indian Economic Development. Since that recognition BHP Ability and the Navajo Nation continue to work as very committed partners and there's an ongoing evolution of the relationship to a point where BHP Ability recently transitioned the ownership of a mining operation to the Navajo Nation. So BHP Ability moved from being the operator and the employer to a position of being the employee of the Nation from 2013 and it's good to have Sam here who may have some reflections on that in particular. The second area I'll touch on briefly is around social development needs. As I said earlier indigenous peoples in many parts of the world have suffered marginalization and for instance their needs and priorities haven't been adequately addressed and there's an opportunity here to think for responsible companies to make a contribution. So for example, BHP Ability makes a commitment to invest 1% of its pre-tax profits in social programs around the world and last financial year the company invested somewhere around $13, $14 million in voluntary social investment projects specifically supporting indigenous communities. They included a five year agreement with Australia's leading science body to increase interest and achievement in STEM, science, maths and engineering for young indigenous people throughout Australia and similar projects with other organizations around indigenous education. And finally in terms of those three pillars of our policy statement, cultural well-being one of the things that we have noted as being very critical to the sustainability of our operations is our employees having an understanding of the context in which they're operating. So it's a mandatory requirement for example across all of our operations where they are adjacent to working on the lands of indigenous peoples for our employees to undertake cultural awareness and cost cultural training. So in 2014 alone we had more than 10,000 employees around the world undertake indigenous cross-cultural training programs. Those programs are scaled in terms of those employees with the greatest daily or more prominent exposure to indigenous peoples having more detailed and advanced cross-cultural training through to those that have less frequent engagement but that sort of investment around building our own employees understanding we think is critical as well as supporting the cultural needs and aspirations of indigenous peoples themselves whether through particular projects or initiatives. So in that context what we seek to achieve as an organization is through our policy statement an aspiration to become a partner of choice for indigenous peoples around the world wherever we operate and a partner of choice through which we contribute to the economic empowerment, the social development needs and priorities in the cultural well-being of indigenous peoples wherever we're working around the world. So that's our contribution. Thank you. Thank you James. You're from New Mexico to be with us. You're the Business Development and Government Affairs Manager for the Navajo Transitional Energy Company. So I think you probably have some things to say about some of the comments that Mr. Ansor made but also you might just share with us as well what brings you to this conversation. Thank you. Thank you Dan. Thank you for the invitation and it's an honor to be here today. Good morning. My name is Sam Woods . It is customary to introduce in my culture is customary to introduce myself and tell you about my family lineage. You never know I could have family who are in the audience today and if so I think we should meet after this panel discussion because I think you have to provide lunch and dinner and a place of a bid for me tonight. As Dan said I've been working for Intec for just over a year and a half now and I support the business from the genesis of business startup to the current Intec business universe. Professor once said to me nothing is more powerful than an idea that the time has come. It is that time that I introduce to you Navajo Transitional Energy Company or Intec for short. Intec is a limited liability company wholly owned by the Navajo Nation that serves as an arm of the nation or better said it is an instrumentality of the Navajo Nation to protect the nation's economic and financial best interests. As we say in Intec our success is not measured by the years we've been in business or how much coal we sold it's measured by the quality of life which we have created for our people and also for our communities. We wear this brand on our arms to remind us of our ideals or to serve rather than to receive. When our leaders first envisioned the purchase of Navajo mine the financial and environmental health was of importance equally important for our stakeholders of the power plant and also the coal mine and the ability to continue Navajo's core foundation of intellectual thought of wisdom and knowledge undeniably to be more self-determined and self-sufficient. Intec's mandates are simple one, to further develop Navajo's financials and economy number two, protect, manage and develop responsibility for the nation's energy resources number three, invest no less than 10% of the net available profits into renewables or alternative energy systems and last number four, to further the nation's policies on economic development and to be more self-autonomous. Intec is a community that is comprised of other communities if our communities are not successful then Intec is not successful. Our engagements with these communities are vital for Intec's success to grow and foster partnerships. It is said in our own communities that are it is said in our own communities that our communities raise their children and we are a reflection of those communities indeed our path forward for Intec is sustaining the region with life we see Navajo coal in that life by being the natural owner of Navajo mine our duties as a Navajo person or to respect and honor our sacred elements as they sustain Navajo life it's no secret that coal is king on Navajo almost one-third of the revenues comes from fossil fuel extraction the other two-thirds comes from the federal government in the form of federal grants it's ironic to think that even grants from the U.S. comes directly or indirectly from resources extraction in the form of royalties, taxes dividends or payments to the U.S. government today Intec manages Navajo mine Intec employs more than 340 full-time jobs nearly 83% of those jobs are Navajos we see these jobs as careers that are built from the moment they take a position to an individual's journey through learning, work and other aspects of growth and life in addition to those careers the fuel source to supply more than 500,000 households throughout the Southwest comes from the Navajo Nation in the form of an abundant resource that we have that affordable form of energy is Navajo coal it protects the energy securities and demands of the Southwest communities it is estimated that Navajo mine and Four Corners Power Plant will bring in an income of over $1.8 billion to the Navajo Nation and $2.45 billion in a gross national product for the Navajo Nation with maximizing our partnerships with BHP Billiton and Arizona Public Service Company there was a sense of a win-win-win situation for all stakeholders involved in the creation of INTECH the buy-in and acceptance of the communities were also critical in the long-term economic sustainability of the Navajo Nation the various levels of engagements and communities were also important during the early phases of Navajo ownership those same ideals in community engagements and community developments are more important to our business today the Navajo Nation like many states remain concerned about the financial impacts of transitioning away from rich fossil dependent resources however it's a mandate that INTECH goal is to diversify our dependence on fossil fuel and balance it with alternative sources even our company name embodies that vision with the word transitional the transition of the nation's energy portfolio will change in time but people often transition but people often resist transition and therefore never allowing change as we continue to live in a state of cessation looking ahead for INTECH requires being resilient and embracing the every variability of change and market shifts regulatory hurdles geopolitical environments that we live in today INTECH must adapt to adapt and condition against these changes and maximize its partnerships and delivering long term positive values for our stakeholders and ensuring Navajo success and robust growth thank you thank you very much Sam really appreciate you being here Daniel thanks for coming all the way from New York Avenue to be with us Sam just turn off the microphone and we were talking before that 25 years ago your job at the Inter-American Development Bank didn't exist and then you said well maybe 20 years ago it did exist and so I hope you'll explain what is the Inter-American Development Bank and how come the Board of Governors or the Board of Trustees of the Inter-American Development Bank created your job and I'm guessing that your inbox is growing with stuff in it as opposed to shrinking with stuff in it so I'd be curious about that as well thank you for being here thank you Dan and thank you for the invitation first even if I'm coming from just across the corner I think my role here is also to try to represent all the more the southern hemisphere into this debate, into this discussion not only the northern hemisphere I mean it's a bit remote just on the question you were asking also about why Board of Trustees are paying somebody like me it probably will be better to ask them directly but I can try to respond to your other questions first what is the IEDB the IEDB is an Inter-American Development Bank it's not the kind of a bank where you go to just take a loan for for mortgage or to get some cash it's a development bank we are there to finance development project in certain part of the world for us in Latin America and the Caribbean our owners are actually more than 60 countries the US is actually the largest share owners with 30% but we are our majority of our shareholders are actually countries from Latin America and the Caribbean as I was mentioning we finance development project which can be education which can be infrastructure which can be roads we can be solar energy which can be mining in certain cases we provide loans to both the governments in the region in the Latin America and the Caribbean region and also to the private sectors to company like BHP Billiton for instance why the extractive sectors why the issue of extractive sectors and just people matter to a development bank first because the extractive sectors is a very important sector for Latin America and the Caribbean it has been the last decade the largest engine of growth in South America particularly in countries like Colombia Peru, Chile Guyana so it's a very important sectors for the development of South America and just people on the other hand are very important aspect of what any development institution can do in the region because there are specific challenges and specific context in dealing with development in the context of Andrews peoples as James mentioned before Andrews people have suffered marginalization for many decades if not centuries we are dealing with specific vulnerability which relate also to an asymmetry of power there which any form of development intervention need to address we are also dealing with communities we have as also some recalled just a few minutes ago large attachment to land territories and natural resources and that also very important factors to be taken into account for any kind of project that may affect Andrews peoples so this issue of Andrews peoples is so important that in 2007 we actually had our own policies to be honest we were not the first institution to have an Andrews people policy World Bank has one since the early 90s the end of the 90s but because also at that time something happened on the international arena where this issue was actually recognized like a very important issue for the world some of you may know that it was in 2006 2007 that the United Nations adopted the declaration of the right of Andrews peoples which enshrined some very important concept like free pre-o-info consent for Andrews peoples so it was a very important time at that time and on the IDB it was also a time where we formally adopted Andrews people policies this policy I'm not going to go into a lot of details but I think it's really based on the vision of development with identity that's the key aspect of this policy recognizing the vulnerability of the specific identity of Andrews peoples which has certain consequences that an implication for any form of economic development intervention you want to have in the context of Andrews peoples one of the this key principle is really respecting and preserving the Andrews people cultural, economic and governance identity as was mentioned before what we think what we see as development and well-being may not be exactly what the Andrews community see as development and well-being and therefore we have to recognize this different, sometimes different view of the world and incorporate it into any form of benefits any form of partnership we want to have with Andrews peoples a very important aspect to be able to achieve that is actually consultation what we called in our policy good phase negotiation to understand how Andrews people see the world see their own benefits and what they want to have as benefits we have also incorporated into our policy is now recognized as free pre-reinformed consent for certain cases which may significantly affect the physical or territorial integrity of Andrews peoples and also last last part which was also taught by GP James and Sam before is how we ensure participation of Andrews people in project benefits and I was very impressed by his example of GP in Canada obviously you guys are far far ahead of what we have in other countries here particularly in the southern hemisphere but this is something we are working finally I'd just like to share with you I probably won't have the time to go very much in details but from beyond those principles I was mentioning a real world experience we had in Peru finance in 2003 it's an interesting project because first it's a very important project with Peru it's a chemistry project where we have which had changed the economy of Peru by providing a lot of a lot of revenue for Peru it's gas extraction and transport I mean gas extraction in the middle of the Amazon in Peru and transport for domestic consumption and export and it was a very very controversial project for the bank to finance and again I was mentioning our policy date from 2007 this project was financed in 2003 so it's not a perfect project it's not a project by which we buy to the letter of our policy which came afterwards but it has been really a defining moment for the bank to define its policy in terms of anxious people and just we have now celebrated more than 10 years of operation of Camisia and I just want to share with you quickly the key lesson learned we have from this project in terms of extractive industries dealing with anxious people what we found very important and for us probably one of the key reasons why this project was possible was really trying to avoid impact impacting land, territories natural sources for anxious people and for this project which was located in a very sensitive environment like the Amazon region the model that has been followed by the companies implementing the project is what we called offshore inland model which is basically developing these activities as if they were offshore as if you were in the middle of the ocean but instead you're in the middle of the forest no access roads all transport has been done by helicopter limited the footprint of any time of installation I'm not going to go into many detail at this point but basically everybody recognizes this model of really limiting the environmental impact was key in getting to the social life and to the social acceptance of this project by communities in general and just people community in particular as James mentioned before long term relationship is absolutely key and what we saw through this project was the importance of building trust through ongoing consultation just before you do the project including the overall life of the project and one interesting experience has been what we call participatory monitoring which is basically empowering the industry community to do the monitoring of the project themselves basically some form of empowerment here and also an important factor for them to gain trust in the project actually delivering their commitments and another important area of factor for success here has been partnering at different level not just with the companies governments central, local have a role to play here the partnership cannot be particularly in countries like Peru when we are not dealing with Canada Australia and the US it's very important that governments retain a role in strengthening the protection of indigenous people there and that's something we personally I mean we as an institution help to build with partnering with the government to have what we call the 21 commitment to strengthen the position of indigenous people in this region into the country also it was a very important outcome of the project I think say that we also recognize that something didn't work and to example I want to mention here it's also the lack of capacity of the local government and central government unfortunately means that the benefits that were expected for the indigenous community didn't really trickle down to them and when you're dealing with country like Peru Colombia of the southern hemisphere where the local government doesn't necessarily have a very strong capacity to deliver benefits to very remote regions it's very important to think about what should be the role of the private sectors in being able to deliver those benefits to and also something we are watching and that was briefly touched upon by Dan in his introduction it's a fact that we see also the arrival of new actors into the same area of Camisa we have seen Chinese company for instance coming right now and they are not necessarily going to implement the offshore inland model and that's raised a little bit all the benefits we see have been accrued for the tenures of the working of the Camisa model so as a development bank the government of Peru the private sector also how we can try to work together to establish some minimum understanding of what any company is coming into the situation should be doing it's also something we are interested in discussing with everybody thank you thank you very much JP had a two finger and since I'm from Canada I'm happy to oblige JP really quickly after reflecting a little bit on my federal panelists there's a way we can deal with actors out in the landscape either with a carrot or a stick I'm very much a carrot type of person we've got a program within the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business called PAR don't get too excited I know it's golf season but it stands for progressive Aboriginal relations and this program what it does is it helps companies build and think strategically and actually align their practices in building good relationships progressive relationships with Indigenous people and it helps companies improve their relations in four pillars employment engagement, investment and business support or procurement and really it's not political it's it's a program to help build that relationship we've talked about FPIC and free prior informed consent is starting to be raised in a lot of countries I think it's a really great precursor to FPIC I think it's an opportunity to solidify a relationship so that FPIC doesn't even have to be talked about and I think it's an invaluable tool so I'd like to share that thank you JP thank you very much there's some very thoughtful and knowledgeable people in the room and I want to take advantage of their presence here so I'm going to start the questions and we're going to do this World Bank style so I'm going to bunch several questions together I want to hear from my friend Rebecca Adamson who's with First Peoples has come all the way from Fredericksburg, Virginia thanks for being here I want to hear from Rebecca, I want to hear from my friend Gustavo Arnavot who's the former US Executive Director of the Inter-American Development Bank and I also want to hear from my friend Veronica Kohler who's the National Mining Association so I'm going to start with Rebecca so if you could bring the microphone to my friend Rebecca over here thank you Dan and thank you very much panelists I enjoyed the panel this morning I'm glad to be here we had JP at one of our events and it's just good to see him back and glad to be here we've served as non-technical risk advisors for a number of corporations like Ovalet, OMV HES and in that capacity we've talked to them about achieving a social license to operate with Indigenous peoples we're also a bit schizophrenic I'd like to say bifurcated but I think it's more schizophrenic in that we work very very directly with Indigenous groups in a grassroots sense we make small grants to communities around the world we're in 60 countries right now one third of our small grant portfolio is going to communities that have never ever ever had money before and I bring that up because there's many communities where a corporation is going to be working where that capacity is non-existent the capacity you have on this panel is brilliant and if companies had an Indigenous peoples policy that was able to take what you learn in Canada what you learn from the Navajos corporate-wide would be the first recommendation but the other recommendation is when you're out there and you're working in communities without capacity I kind of want to flip it and talk about something else we're doing and it has to do with corporate capacity and what's the corporation's capacity for genuine engagement we work very directly I said with grassroots communities and with investors that's why I said schizophrenic it's not bifurcated and with the investors what we're really doing is looking at how to assess a corporation's capacity to manage and mitigate its social risk plain and simple and we've been looking at a metrics now that is taking a full on hardcore measurement of a capacity for a corporation to mitigate its social risk and one of the things we're finding for example is you operate with sub-optimal data in one capacity of the non-technical risk advisor I was asked to review the Greenland social environmental impact assessment report 450 pages SEIA you probably have all read them if you're from a corporation on Greenland Greenland is 85% Inuit 450 pages and it was never mentioned there was no mention of indigenous peoples and the Inuit culture until the last chapter which was 10 pages long which brought the Inuit people in and they said they need education and there's probably not much we could do right now I gave a lot of advice to that company and said but the parliament approved it and we kept saying you're required for broad based community support your SEIA is not giving you the kind of optimal information you need because you're not in the villages and you don't really know what the villages want and that's where you're going to be laying your pipeline need us to say parliament got re-elected parliament got wiped out the next election and they put in anti-development people this is where a corporation could have been in there could have been on the ground with optimal information they'd have been able to read those signs instead of getting flat footed and blindsided with the fact that now parliament doesn't want any development there's ways that we need to look at how corporate and what we've seen in our measurements is that a company that can mitigate social risk actually has higher economic performance and on average the economic performance was what 5.6 percent higher return on investment it went as widely as 11 percent more return on investment for those companies that could not manage their social risk so that there's metrics out there and I think there's a capacity that companies need to look at as to how they engage thanks Rebecca Gustavo I suspect you had to deal with this on a fairly frequent basis there's a microphone over there and your role as a former when you were US Executive Director at the IDB thank you Dan I think you asked Manuel why the Board of Executive Directors would hire someone like him so I thought I would provide the answer so as Latin America has become more and more democratic certainly over the last 20 or 30 years the role of all stakeholders all citizens, all residents in a particular country has become more and more important and therefore they need to address their needs and their demands without the kind of work that Manuel does the kind of policies that the IDB and others have implemented we simply at this day we could not get those done for practical matters we couldn't do it locally to be very frank politically speaking would be very difficult for the United States to provide something that it does to multilateral institutions so everyone wins the indigenous communities win the governments win, the IDB wins however these policies regardless of how well intended they are are implemented by human beings and not by God and so for a variety of different reasons at the implementation level there will be differences as to whether or not various policies are being implemented in the correct fashion or they're being implemented in ways that adversely affect indigenous communities and in contrary to those policies the challenge has been for many years and I saw this firsthand when we have to come up with a mechanism that's supposed to be independent that's supposed to provide for consultations supposed to provide for investigations to see who's right and ultimately of course the board of executive directors although they report to the board of governors believes itself to be sovereign at the IDB we have an interesting governance issue which is that the borrowing countries collectively control slightly more than the majority I think for good reasons but then they're also that creates challenges and one of those challenges on a practical level is that whenever a project is challenged the director for that particular country understandably takes on the role of advocate in challenging any findings by any kind of independent mechanism like I have to say if ever I was on the board and the US Treasury or the US government was challenged in some way the last thing I was going to do was say I agree with you we're wrong and so I'm just being very practical and so that's always been the challenge I think we'll continue to be the challenge having said all that we're talking out the margins because I am convinced that the vast majority of the projects are being done in an appropriate fashion and what the projects do I think that we've addressed these issues in a way that we're doing so now in a way that we didn't do probably 30 years ago or so and so on balance I think they should get a very good grade for what they've done Thank you Veronica Thank you and thank you to the panelists it was very interesting presentations it's great to hear what BHP is doing and it's a company that's forward thinking and working on social and developmental issues and working within communities I think over the past 20 years a lot of good actors have come out of the woodwork in the extractive sector and I think it's now our responsibility to raise awareness about what those good actors are doing to incentivize other companies in the sector to raise their own bars to that level and that can be all of our responsibility not just the companies who are actually moving that bar up because it's in everyone's best interest to have the entire sector have the same positive impact in the communities in which they're operating and as Rebecca mentioned there are economic reasons for corporate and social responsibility changing and being mainstreamed through a company and helping us develop a business case to articulate and help other companies reach that goal as well I think would behoove all of us and it's not just the private sector and the community partnerships that I think are important and necessary for success but it's the public, I mean it's the government as well participating in this and partnering with private and then with communities there are a lot of things that companies can't do if the government isn't open to extraction or operations in certain areas or in their national boundaries and then we don't want to leave out the investors and so I'm glad to see that IDB is here and obviously you know IFC has been working in the extractive sectors and identifying principles to help raise the bar but there are other investors out there that could be brought into this conversation that would help again raise the bar Sure, to Rebecca's comments I fully agree when we start building in what that means to your bottom line if you're not building relationships and business relationships they have significant impacts and I just reflect again on our PAR program it's been around for almost 15 years now and we have oil and gas, forest, mining, finances, all sorts of companies have gone through that and I just want to reflect when Suncore Energy became PAR Silver certified within our organization Financial Times came out with just a one liner Suncore Energy receives Silver Certification within CCAB's program and what that says is that finance is obviously paying attention if you're not checking off your boxes and I hate to say it so crudely but if you're not actually working in spending time developing relationships with Indigenous people your products are at risk and with risky projects money becomes more sparse and more expensive so absolutely right on the head I think the other comments around um oh jeez I just lost my train of thought I do apologize but again largely it gets down to the bottom line of a lot of these companies and but the thing is that Indigenous communities as we start to hear can add oh I remember what it was and to your point about it's just not the primary resource extraction the big companies responsibility it's like you say it's everybody's responsibility so how are we going to influence the whole supply chain to think about getting outside of the regular practices of hiring and the procurement and the hiring of Aboriginal people or Indigenous people how are we going to incentivize or and I'm not a stick guy but how are we going to punish those that don't how are we going to get the whole value chain pushing in the same direction because ultimately we all benefit when we do that James uh the observations really hit a chord with me and I think I going to Rebecca's observations I think I partially agree with those and just let me explain a little bit so risk mitigation as an approach is it necessary absolutely is it sufficient in my view no and by that I mean organizations if you look at you know typical approaches around risk mitigation frameworks so for a company like BHP it's mandatory for every operation that the company operates around the world to have regular independently conducted human rights impact assessments social baseline assessments community development management plans these are mandatory deal breakers and it's a compliance based model those processes they produce voluminous documents and plans and such like and they're necessary but I'm not of the view that they are sufficient and I think it goes to JP's observation that at the end of the day there's no substitute for hiring people who have the capacity to build relationships to be open to build understanding to operate in cross cultural contexts and people with personal integrity in terms of how they manage relationships and I think to realize the full potential of relationships and the benefits that resource extraction can bring to indigenous peoples it's putting those two pieces of the jigsaw together so having a culture and enabling culture within a corporate entity that moves beyond a compliance and risk mitigation framework to embedding in cultural norms and attitudes and behaviors and expectations of an entire workforce particular understandings and models so one of the pieces of advice that I often give to staff working in these sorts of roles is put yourself in the place of the indigenous community or the indigenous leader that you are working with how would you expect to be treated if you had their history their experience and you were working in your shoes and just to reflect on that in your day to day interactions and how you plan and how you work with those stakeholders so yes there's sort of a compliance and risk mitigation approach I think is absolutely necessary but there's something more fundamental I think that also needs to accompany that Thank you, Sam I also agree with James Navajo Transitional Energy Company or the Navajo Nation it's a we're still a developing nation most people when we do these talks about who we are, where we come from and we start talking about a small nation inside the United States nation somewhat of a nation within a nation but it's all the things everything that we're engaged in from the business level to the engagements to the policies to regulatory and compliance everything that we're engaged in I think we're just now stepping into those different areas and we're learning we're learning as a nation to be just from an index perspective perspective is that we're understanding this business BHB and others and the things that we engage with on a daily basis they've been in this industry for a number of years for us to take over Navajo mine and we're somewhat of a newbie in trying to understand how they've been running these operations for years and years so for us again we go back to building internal capacity ensuring that our partners provide the necessary capacity the bill ourselves up to manage and run these operations and again I did I did talk about to be successful I think and I did say the intake is a community that is comprised of a lot of different other communities and some of those communities are your grassroots folks and our where I come from from the Navajo Nation we have a lot of different grassroots organizations and that someone some of them are always for what we're doing and some are always against for what we're trying to achieve and the bottom line is really sustaining sustaining the current jobs and building our revenues because a lot of our revenues are used to that actually go back to the communities and actually go back to the people in the form of direct services helping our youth, helping our elders helping our community, building our communities so and we do for us we do see it as gaining acceptance from those grassroots organizations of those communities and again it refers back to having this social license to operate and that's somewhat in terms of in a way of how we see it so okay thank you I would just like to emphasize the idea that was proposed and how we can get to a coalition of various sectors to move on those issues and first as I mentioned it's very important that the partnership is really between the companies and the industry people but between the companies, the industry people and the government because the government do have a role to play here it's complicated sometimes but leaving the government out some form, I mean iso-central or local government usually not leading necessarily to very good outcomes in the end in terms of the industry specifically to take an example of what happened from the extractive sectors on the biodiversity issue a few years ago because the extractive sectors had to deal with these specific issues of biodiversity they created what was called the bebop the business, the diversity of set principles it was not respected to the extractive sectors but the extractive sector was very strong in it and it was an opportunity for the leaders of the sectors to basically propose something for the overall sectors of course all industries are not necessarily joining that but it does give an opportunity for the one on the sectors who are actually acting in the leadership on those issues as a platform and a platform of change so I mean that also something that could be interesting if this issue is moving forward more permanently would be to see how the sectors can co-organize itself so that leaders like BHPB and COOL could move into that direction and propose form of framework that would be applicable to a coalition of companies because they are actually between the donors principles probably you policy or the policy I think there are a lot of commonalities I'd like to hear from Tom Outlaw and Andrew Mack Tom, explain why I'm calling on you because I'm pale male but definitely not stale that is absolutely the case, yes yes now with USAID in the partnerships division but formerly just returned from Madagascar where I worked for a mining company share it international which ironically happened to be Ken as his largest thermal coal producer at the same time as one of the world's largest proprietary processes for nickel mining hats off to Dan again for a great presentation which to me is really at the sweet spot of what I'm being paid today to do for me I just want to make one observation based on what Gustavo said and maybe turn this Salzeer into a silk purse here whenever I'm on a panel discussion about extractives in Africa it's always resource curse corrupt governments fiscal regimes bank accounts we don't know about that kind of stuff whenever I'm on a panel to a panel and to a person on a Latin American discussion it is always about indigenous rights in the environment now obviously Africa's got plenty of indigenous peoples right so what's the diff if it is true what you just said that these countries are advanced enough on the development spectrum that these organizations both have the ability the technical skills and the government leeway to make a ruckus about these things maybe that's in some ways a sign of progress we were operating a strip mine part of the world's probably most endangered rainforest in Madagascar that was a focus of some of our issues but it was mainly dealing with a corrupt coup regime and everyone was convinced that we were paying money under the table even though as Canadians except I was a lone American we really tried to be more Catholic than the Pope on that one thing I wanted to mention about the difficulty of social license and just how fleeting it can be is at the same time in Canada we were divesting ourselves of our coal assets and we were basically redefining what the company was about and focusing on mining in Madagascar we were winning sustainability community relations awards hand over fist we had the director of UNA to get on a plane from Geneva and fly down to give us an award for HRV testing program and I remember very clearly because we were getting at the same time I can't remember what the order of events was but but just before just after we sold the asset we had in Canada in Hinton about I don't know how many miles due west of Edmonton in Alberta a breach of the coal mine slurry pond dumped about 200 million gallons of arsenic cadmium manganese just of cocktail of death into the watershed and needless to say that created quite a bit of consternation among the First Nations peoples there and phones rang and stock prices plunged and headlines ran at the same time we were doing everything we could to operate in a sustainable and community friendly way in Madagascar and it was working but we were getting in the motorcade with the French ambassador to commission a technical school that we had funded in cooperation with the AFD and the ambassadors in the car and he shows me his blackberry the story and literally as the wheels were rolling he was not going to get on the podium with us after this had been months in the making and you know we basically had to convince him look ambassador this is a global company that you've seen what we do here on the ground you know we do good work I can't speak to what's happening here but I know we're dealing with it forward but you know if that had happened that would have made it the BBC when the French ambassador steps out of Madagascar at his front page news and so as hard as we were working in Madagascar a slip up in another part for a global operation can sink the whole thing I don't know what the lesson from that is other than the necessity of at a corporate C-suite level rigorous policy strong enforcement consistent principles and very network communication but not least I just wanted to underscore the point that Dan and James were both making you know these guys sorry that we're all not stale they're not stale part we all know that but extractive industries are by definition as Dan said just from the capex alone long-term investors and one of the great epiphanies that I had moving from USAID into the business is you know we were there with a 30 year project and we didn't pay off the senior debt holders until like year 14 so there's no pulling up stakes we're not going to go anywhere so we are by definition the interest alignment is almost perfect because these organizations like them are not have to work with these communities they ignore them at their peril and when I go to AID and promote partnerships I get the same oh not these guys again they're not good that's really not the point whether their heart is in it or not that's not the question the question is what opportunity they pose for partnership and what is their interest alignment with the goals of the development agency to me it's almost one to one thank you thanks Dan and thanks a lot Tom for having stolen my good line about pale and male so Dan called on me because he wanted me to talk a little bit about some of the work that we've done with extractives and natural resource companies I'll make some reference to that both in Latin America and Africa we've had some really good and interesting experience from what we've seen a lot of it comes down to two issues one of them is environment and the other one is jobs environment because we know that extractives are by their nature very tricky and at the very minimum we need to be seen as being sensitive around environmental issues around land stewardship issues if we're not it really doesn't make a difference how many awards we win it doesn't make a difference whether the guy from UNAIDS thinks that we are the second coming of some wonderful being it really doesn't matter at all I think that those kinds of honorifics are fantastic and they're worth shooting for but they don't last in the long term so definitely in being in touch with the environmental and the connection to land that indigenous people have is supremely important the second thing I think is in some ways at least is important because we have a lot of discussion of jobs and James mentioned the amount of supply chain jobs that were being created that's good and that's relatively new from what we've seen over the course of time when we started working in Africa you know ten years ago on this issue there wasn't much of a consideration of trying to hire locals or help to stand up local and and in capacity local businesses to make those long term commitments there's tremendous importance and tremendous power as speaking now as parts of the natural resources food chain you're just one part of a community's life and one of the big questions that we're trying to figure out is how can we take that partnership you don't want to employ everybody in a region even if it were possible to do so and even if there were good jobs it's too much pressure on any one sector it's too much pressure on any one company and frankly it's not good business practice and so what can we as major as major stakeholders in a community what can we do to build up other sources diversify other sources of job growth because jobs is the second big piece if you look around the world in indigenous communities the lack of jobs is a really really big issue the lack of long term jobs the lack of abilities for entrepreneurship and so whether it's working on micro franchising to bring in other major companies that you might have access to or whether it's trying to mobilize resources from a combination of public and private using some government sources those strike me as a really really important way to go I'd love to know what if anything you think has been successful in this space since we've seen a lot of efforts and a lot of swings and misses if you'll pardon the baseball in your reference thank you Andrew thank you so I'm going to just go down the row here I'd like people to respond to any of the reflections observations that you heard as well as last comments from each of the panels JP the porters I want to go last fine sure again some very pertinent observations on the question of jobs and contribution there's a few things I think that are important here the first is for large extractive industries companies the way I'd like to to interpret things is these companies are significant national development actors in many contexts in which they work in many of the countries in which the HP Ability has operations it can be one of the largest direct employees in that country it can be one of the largest taxpayers in that country through its contributions of taxes and royalties its supply chain can have you know quite significant reach throughout a national economy so it's not just thinking in terms of your economic contribution through local employment it's about conceptualising you know your role as a material as a national economic actor as I say over a long period of time not over a short period of time so in terms of how a company positions itself in terms of working with governments working at the interface between governments and communities and civil society and also not inadvertently making significant mistakes so by way of example the resources sector it's a cyclical sector by its very nature in in terms of being the outcome of demand price being the determinant of the outcome of supply and demand changes over time so we've recently been through a global resources boom we're now going through another period another period towards a sort of bottom line cycle and perhaps in three or four or five years in a number of commodity areas that cycle will turn up again so thinking about your approach as a significant national economic developer actor is really critical and recognising what you can do what's beyond your control to do but how you might be able to influence others becomes very important so for example in South America some of the most interesting initiatives I've seen recently in projects that BHP militants have an association with have been the sponsoring of what we've called citizen platforms where the company is a significant national economic development actor in a particular country has worked with national and provincial governments to create platforms that bring together representatives of communities with provincial and national governments to co-determine their priorities and needs at a local level or a provincial level and then to work in a tripartite way between the company and many different levels of government and communities to match resource contributions to agreed community priorities and needs so not creating a situation where a company inadvertently could become a de facto government and replace the role of a government which is inappropriate so it's those sorts of things we need to think about we need to take a sort of systems approach and not just think about the particular mine site which is just with a local community that's important but it's not necessarily sufficient Sam in terms of the jobs doesn't make sense to employ everyone in our case coming from Navajo we have a high unemployment rate it's roughly about 51, 52 percent and being that we're just over 300,000 people and roughly about 180,000 of those people from the Navajo Nation and 51, 52 percent of those people are unemployed and it does make sense I guess from our perspective to employ as many Navajos as we possibly can because as James said this it's cyclical because if you employ Navajo person the person provides a good quality work, a good quality product activity increases the company when productivity increases the company does well when the company does well the company does create profits and the company pays dividends back to the government and back to the communities and even the productive worker they pay back in form of taxes back to the communities and back to the government so in a sense it's somewhat of a whole win-win situation for everyone and again back to Navajo we have such an abundant amount of resources on Navajo as I said coal is king on Navajo we have roughly about 42.2 billion tons of coal in a Navajo Nation so right now we're looking into whether we need to utilize more of that more of those coal resources with the technologies that do exist out there to create other revenue generating businesses for the Navajo Nation we also do have an oil and gas company we have a engineering and construction company we have numerous other different organizations that employ Navajo people and again with maximizing our partnerships with companies like BHB built in Peabody Energy and other big known companies that do work on a Navajo Nation it's good to leverage those companies and to help us understand the resources that we have on Navajo and build those resources and develop those resources for really for the benefit of our people and also for our communities any manual I think all the intervention reflect very clearly the challenges of opportunity we have just on the last intervention environment that I couldn't agree more on jobs I think jobs are just one very important but specific aspect of participation into the project benefits and I think we need to think a little bit more about what that means participation in project benefits also community development there is the example of Canada which I think is very interesting too so job is important but I think we need to think a little bit broader also in terms of beneficiary ok JP you really do have the last word thank you with regards to the unfortunate spill of Alberta one of the things that I advocate a lot for is building in indigenous people into the whole process often we ask well how do you incorporate traditional knowledge into western science it's a slightly colonialistic view if you take that view but building indigenous people into your process and your mitigation process and everything so in essence you've got validators it doesn't answer all your that's a significant challenge that you've described I don't pretend to have a silver bullet for that but that's one element that I think that companies can use to help address some of those that do occur every once in a while unfortunately with regards to jobs again back to my point about the whole supply chain you need really strong procurement policies that you need to walk but you also need to make sure that your suppliers also have those same procurement strategies for employment and procurement of Aboriginal or the indigenous businesses again you know the need for goods and services is significant and you're going to be a major driver of that economy so make sure every aspect of that economy is thinking about this as well so I'm sure that you've got internal policies and on your score cards if you can't find an indigenous business supply you the good or service make sure that they've got the strong procurement policies in their practices as well is really important and just make sure your procurement has teeth back to the Canadian government one thing that irks me a little bit is in the US you've got such strong procurement policies here in Canada we don't have that it's a nice thing to do but these policies have to have teeth otherwise industry or other governments they're just not going to invest on that we're going to end please join me in thanking the panel