 Goodness, those lights are bright as though it's not a sunny enough day. We get the lights as well Thank you very much all for coming out especially on on such a sweltering evening I think our Sri Lankan guests must have brought some fantastic summer weather with them. So we're very grateful to you Even before we've started this evening My name's Phil Clark. I'm a reader in comparative and international politics here at SOAS and I'm coordinating the research project that tonight's event is a part of And we've had a really fantastic response from from all of you About the speakers and about the topics that we're going to be talking about tonight This of course is a public dialogue on peace and reconciliation in Sri Lanka And I'd just like to say a little bit about the research project that this falls within Before I introduce our speakers for tonight The title of this research project is learning from leaders understanding elite experiences of peace reconciliation and forgiveness after civil conflict and it's funded by an NGO in the US called the FETSA Institute along with the politics department here at SOAS and in the literature on Responses to mass conflict there tends to be an emphasis either on the role of National elites in trying to foster peace and reconciliation or an emphasis on community level leaders Who play a similar type of role? What this research project is is interested in is something slightly different which is What those of us engaged in this project are calling middle-tier or go-between leaders who actually connect national level processes and community level processes and In essence, these are leaders who are themselves engaged in very important national Processes related to peace and reconciliation. They take part in a formal elite peace negotiations They're involved in national politics But they're also engaged in a range of processes below that level at the provincial level at the district level at the community level and In essence their role is to move backwards and forwards between these very different levels of actors and To a large extent we're calling this leading from the middle We think that there's something very particular about actors who fulfill this this bridging function and so it's worthy of investigation and analysis as a result What's clear in the project to date is that there are very particular challenges involved for the leaders who play this very unusual role Particularly in terms of how they translate ideas between these very different levels of actors so that something that might make sense at the National level in terms of peace processes can often be very difficult to communicate to communities at the at the grass roots and Vice versa that leaders in this position also play a very difficult role in translating ideas from the bottom to elites at the national level So this go-between function requires very particular types of leadership and as we're going to see in just a moment very particular types of leaders as individuals The research project focuses on four particular cases We had a very similar public dialogue to the one that you will see this evening back in February Which looked at the peace process in Colombia And in fact, I know that several of our participants from the Colombia dialogue are actually here this evening Which is a nice sense of continuity for us as organizers There's of course tonight's event on Sri Lanka and in October and November There'll be very similar dialogues on Northern Ireland and on South Africa In each case we invite pairs of leaders from the case study countries who come from different sides of the political or the social divide That the conflict encapsulates The project involves firstly a series of individual research interviews So our participants this evening have already been fully grilled this morning by Richie Howarth my research collaborator and myself So it's very courageous of our participants to front up for this public event this evening having already been interrogated to the full this morning and then of course the second part of each of these events is the public dialogue that you'll That you'll witness in just a moment, which is also part of the research process The other function I guess of these public dialogues Of course is to to bring leaders from the countries in question to engage with a very wide audience such as yourselves and in particular To engage with diaspora communities based here in London who have a very direct interest of course in issues of peace and reconciliation In terms of our format tonight I'm about to hand over in just a moment to dr. Suthar Nadarajah from SOAS who's kindly agreed to moderate the public dialogue And our two participants this evening. I'm sure already very familiar to all of you Shiralakthilaka and Kandya Savaswaran Each of our two participants will present for ten minutes focusing particularly on their personal role in issues of peace and reconciliation in Sri Lanka And then Suthar's going to facilitate a conversation between them There'll be plenty of time of course for discussion with you as the audience I should say at the outset this event is being recorded It is being videoed and so everything that you say is on the record So bear that in mind, especially when we get to the Q&A part of this evening Finally, let me introduce our speakers and then I'm going to hand over to Suthar Our first leader participating this evening is Shiralakthilaka He's a member of the United National Party in Sri Lanka Where he's currently the coordinating secretary to President Siri Sina He's a lawyer and an author on conflict resolution He served as a member of the provincial council and he's consulted in the ministry of constitutional affairs during a whole series of different peace processes in Sri Lanka He was also previously the director of the Colombo Institute of Social Studies Our second dialogue participant is Dr. Kandia Saviswaran Who is a Tamil National Alliance politician Who has served as a member of the National Provincial Council since 2013 He currently assists the chief minister on economic planning And he's also the younger brother to the current president of the Elam People's Revolutionary Liberation Front He was also previously a lecturer in political science at the University of Colombo So both of our speakers at certain stages have straddled the divide between academia and policymaking Both Shiral and Savis have also been involved in an initiative that I'm sure they'll speak about a great deal this evening Called the One Text Initiative, which has been a very important dialogue process in Sri Lanka over the last 10 years or so And our chair this evening is Dr. Suthar Natharaja Who's a lecturer in the Center for Diplomacy and International Studies here at SOAS His research looks at issues of security, development and liberal governance Examining security threats and the role of the international community and his work has a particular focus on conflict in Sri Lanka So without any further ado, I want to hand over to Suthar and one to get a very warm welcome to both Shiral and Savis We're really ecstatic that you're here. Thanks for coming all this way and we look forward to what you have to say this evening Thanks very much Can you hear me? Agree me everyone. Thank you for coming out tonight We were not sure where the heat would incite most of you to go to the park or the pub instead So my role as chair is to effectively Facilitated a dialogue between our two speakers Which includes forcing them to talk so the idea is that That's really I will say some opening comments Service will say some opening comments They will respond to each other's comments and then it'll be a dialogue primarily between the two of them I might intervene using chair's privilege to compel them to say more about a particular thing that they have said Which may not be clear or which may be controversial and so on At the end in the last half an hour 45 minutes, we will take questions from the front from yourselves And I would encourage you to be robust in your questioning, but I would also encourage you to ask questions rather than If speeches I've been to many events where you know the as per our present And people are quite rightly have strong feelings and have things to say, but I would encourage that tonight's event is really about our two guests So before they start I'd say a quick couple of minutes to say something about the context in which we are holding this event So we all know you all know a lot of this well just summarize it the Sri Lanka's armed conflict ended in 2009 But the subsequent years Were not seen by moves towards peace and reconciliation, but rather the deepening of antagonisms and the emergence of new ones There's a lot that can be said about Sri Lanka But in relevance to peace and reconciliation three issues have nonetheless risen to the top the first is the lack of any kind of political dialogue certainly at the level of elites But even other initiatives that might take place that might produce a political solution to the country's ethnic The second is the continuation of certain kinds of Continuities from the war era so particularly the north and east the presence of the military in large numbers The expansion of the military into other aspects of life economic life in particular and so on have been a serious impediment to the possibility of the emergence of reconciliation The third and most probably the most significant has been the international campaign for accountability for wartime atrocities now The matter has been simmering for a long time, but particularly over the last two years It's become internationalized and the United Nations is conducting an investigation which will report probably in September now all these elements have taken place in a context where a particular Leadership that started before the war president Mahindra rise of access government was in place Which is why the election the sudden election of president sirusena in January has opened up a lot of optimism That things might be different Now since then some people remain optimistic some people are less optimistic But what we can say with certainty is that this is one of the most turbulent times in Sri Lanka's political Trajectory parliament was dissolved last week elections will be held in August No one can really predict exactly how things will pan out But the consequences whichever way they pan out for peace and reconciliation are quite significant So with that as the context, I would like to invite Shreya to state his opening comments Good evening to everybody ladies and gentlemen let me first Extended extend my thanks to the department of political science at so as as well as dr. Phil Clark for inviting me for this public dialogue and Also, it's a privilege as well as honor to me to be present here and talk to you on Sri Lankan challenges After 10 years of grueling and suffocating Behavior in Sri Lankan society, I'm here and talking with certain proud Because for the first time in an international forum We can talk as Sri Lankan citizens about establishing human civilized and Democratic society in Sri Lanka This has happened after January 8th. We are there where our presidential election happened we managed to transform Sri Lanka from Autocratic and pan nationalistic Politics into democratic politics in Sri Lanka Nobody expected this kind of change, but Now we are experiencing that we managed to transform the society and introducing certain constitutional changes to Sri Lanka, which brings certain structures that would help to democracy and And certain processes which would enhance the functioning of those structures specially the set of attitudes democratically based To create an edifice or foundation to create new Sri Lanka So this is a in short time in six months of time We are proud. We are happy and we are contented. We managed to create a new space to Sri Lanka Peace Reconciliation transitional justice are challenging and contentious issues still to Sri Lanka, but we are quite confident that With this gain democratic space We would be able to deal with those challenging and contentious issues I'm telling these are challenging and contentious because We see that There's a different difference of opinion in the divide on these issues When it come to peace We see lot of rhetoric as well as policy needs Involving peace or resolving the Sri Lankan question of Non-majority communities So in reconciliation Although we talk about reconciliation. I my my personal opinion is it's too early to talk about reconciliation because It's a although it's a post war Issue Sri Lanka never had a post negotiation stage after the war what we see is that Victorious Community and a defeated community in that context. It's very difficult to think about political reconciliation basic limbs of reconciliation such as political reconciliation where you have to resolve the externalization of decision-making process of certain communities and also Victim perpetrator reconciliation how to forgive and forget in the context of victorious mentality These are challenges to us and also in a way Only area it is Possible to do something is psychosocial reconciliation at the moment So we have to talk about transitional justice in this context Sri Lankan government although I'm representing my individual capacity here Is not afraid to deal with this subject We are quite confident that We can deal with that but the government needs certain space and time to deal with this That is our position But that does not mean that Like previous government we can put these issues under the carpet and push the agenda further down in the timeline so in a way What I have to say in my opening remarked that Sri Lanka is opening up for new Era and space that does not mean that we don't have Conflicts we don't have Challenges so all these things depends on courageous decision-making political decision-making in the country Now if I take further down from the topic which I was entrusted in In relation to reconciliation of transitional justice my Personal opinion is that there are so much of rhetoric Involving this whole debate So therefore it is a challenge for us to understand the policy contest Between the Sri Lankan state and the Tamil action when I say Tamil action Or Tamil political action it encompasses all the groups who are talking about what although with different voices, but Talking about one thing now in conflict resolution it is a challenge to understand this Political policy conflict that is a challenge before us If I further explained to you on my personal opinion on this I would rather like to Borrow some words from famous military strategist Klaus which which he has said military war is an extension of a Political contest Now what is the political contest contest in Sri Lanka? That is the most important thing when it come to Resolving the political reconciliation or finding a answer for point political reconciliation or other reconciliation aspects plus Victim perpetrator reconciliation We can hear a lot of statements We can hear a lot of positions All these positions are connected with each and every groups value system So values create data for Sri Lankan government Holds certain set-out data The Tamil ethno-political action holds certain set-out data None of these are correct for instance, my personal opinion is I am I don't believe the previous government's position of zero casualty Policy in war Also, I don't believe 40,000 deaths in the Last day or last two days of war So all these are Positions taken by various parties or concerned parties. So therefore, it's a challenge Before us to identify the real data and then develop consensual Criteria to interpret this data So it is a technical work but some may don't like to hear this kind of approach But that does not mean when I say this We believe that even one person died Civil personality died in a war the state should be Responsible for that. We for a moment. We are not going to evade from the responsibility, but on the same time if we want to have a meaningful and long-lasting solution for this we have to overcome with these ongoing battles on data As well as we have to search for overarching value frame now when you when you talk about Finding solution for Sri Lanka First we have to ask what is the problem now when I asked this you will say that don't you know? No, everybody knows but everybody have different interpretation for that So therefore challenge even after 30 years of war as well as Negotiations as well as interactions to develop a consensus about the nature of the Sri Lankan conflict So there are so many challenging areas To discuss with that comment and note I may stop at this point and allowing Sudha to take me from their own words. Thank you Good evening Friends first of all I would like to thank to the team Of so as in this project to invite me and Provide this privilege to share my thoughts and little experience on the reconciliation process On and off comes and goes in Sri Lanka Of course I'm appreciate my friend he gave very Optimistic thoughts and also I would like to be optimistic and We are optimistic But in different connotation. It's a conflict is To my understanding it starts from 1917 so 18th It's nearing a century now It took different forms With different demands at different times and different forms of from Democratic Parliament is struggle to Gandhian struggling outside and armed struggle then enough after a full circle now again to some kind of power sharing and War or reparation atrocities or legacy of the war etc. In the case of Reconciliation in Sri Lanka before that reconciliation we wish to know that there's a conflict and What is that conflict is simply in Sri Lanka? the majority people the single Buddhist Are governed or the single of polity is governed By an ideology of that the Sri Lanka is single a Buddhist state And the single is are the son of the soil and the rest are aliens This is the fundamental impediment of any kind of this is the fundamental source of conflict and Fundamental impediment of any kind of a solution all along for 60 years these every government as My friend Shiral said now after 10 years of an autocratic Resist kind of a government now we change and kind of a open space for Democracy or kind of a democratic space We had Almost the same kind of a scenario after 17 years of JR Yawar than a rule and then Chandrika Bandar Naika came in 1994 with almost the same kind of slogan of For a conflict resolution she said that This is basically or primarily a political conflict and not an armed conflict Therefore it needs a political dialogue and a solution then there was a two three years There was a very good space for democracy and Dialogue and everything but finally then The heartliners took up a hand and that is going into dock then Rajabaksha came another 10 years of long atrocities a genocidal war more than 140,000 as My friend said that I don't believe 40,000 of course. It is not a belief. It is a government's role to Get the accountability because they have the entire system to get the accountability what I say the hundred 46,000 is the static six from the war zone districts Population statistics It is government statistics Of course, it may be there may be some error here and there But still the government even the previous government and the present government are failed to Find out the exact figure. It is a responsibility of the government. This is not a guessing game Of course United Nations. They are whatever the available scrutinized Documents they found that is approximately 40 another UN estimation said it is 70,000 and We say it is 140 of course the game is different, but the government's responsibility is a government So government always has a responsibility Accountability therefore it is not necessary to go for this guessing and gossiping. So why they are Hesitating to bring out all the facts Because these are very bit of facts once a facts comes out It will expose them as a to the war is not merely a war against terrorism But it is designed under the guise of war against terrorism to eliminate as much as As much as much civilians also because they used a lot of Band weapons and artillery and bombs cluster bombs napalm bombs etc and Also, they bombed I think a lot of audience here would have been aware of Evidences and there are a lot of publication came out from Latest of about Auckland report from us United Nations Secretary-General's Expert report on Sri Lanka Then the internal review report of United Nations Then we have crisis crisis group Report there are a number of reports came and all the reports are coming out with this lot of facts which are Which indicate the government which is a kind of a well-planned Genocidal kind of attack The government was maintained until the end of the war for almost three four years Saying that only 70,000 people are in the war zone where it was nearly 480,000 people were there and They sent food and medicine for only for 70,000 people for months and months and Even the people when they were in the queue for medicine and food. They were bombed and not very bombed They killed on the queues and so what I say is The United Nations this issue was taken up When the United Nations tried to go for investigation Sri Lanka is Governments the all the governments and all the political leaders die hard to prevent any kind of independent investigation or the United Nations official investigation because the truth is bitter as He said he accepted that This kind of a Genocidal war a huge amount of loss of lives Huge amount of properties completely destroyed Even the after the war there are vast areas occupied By the forcibly occupied by the army areas in the sense it is it is civilian areas and civilian civilian settlements more than it is it is estimated nearly hundred thousand acres and Also the northern province is in under defect or military role that is out of 20 divisions of the army 15 divisions are in the northern province. We are the total population is 1 million So five is to one apart from army. There are Navy and Air Force So this is the scenario we are we are looking for reconciliation and peace So the previous government openly said That Sri Lanka is one country. We are one people That means indirectly the Tamils supposed to reconcile themselves as minority and Mentally you should be ready to assimilate with us. Oh Even some Buddhist monks and heartliners said otherwise better you go to South India as I earlier said the mindset is the son of the son of the soil and others are aliens That means they say that if you want rights if you want equal rights go and ask in South India in Tamil Nadu it is Absolutely mythical and it's absolutely authoritarian kind of talk because Sri Lanka and Tamils are the older civilization of Sri Lanka We know that singular So there are sort of Buddhism the date of Buddhism arrived in Sri Lanka. That is 2,500 years when when Buddhism comes there's a strong civilization and About those studies. I don't want to go deeper to the history so here How a reconciliation is possible as he said how the present situation is It's almost the same kind of a situation prevailed after the Jaya Vardhana period to when Chandrika Bandar Naya took over the position where I was one of the Maybe hundreds of intellectuals working for reconciliation Because Chandrika Bandar Naya throw a political package For a resolution we believed that she will do it because she came out with a big support Including the Tamils She openly said that this absolutely political conflict. Therefore, I'm going for a political dialogue and solve the problem so we fully Trusted and we were working for four or five years on it promoting Chandrika's political package and to and to go for awareness programs on the people but Within years The entire climate changed the heartliners took up a hand and Chandrika Bandar Naya cast whole the democratic space was completely Shadowed by the heartliners and then entire exercise went on vain. So we all get vanished Now also we have that problem big question because even the present regime that is The difference is in Chandrika's regime. It is a we have two major parties ruling one after the other Chandrika Bandar Naya belongs to SLRP and at that time the UNP was the opposition and now it is a difference is the president is supported by all the parties including the UNP and UNP is in the parliament president is there. So therefore it is somewhat a national government So in that case, we don't we will not have a partisan politics like in the past in this time and now parliament is dissolved in Another two months we will have new government So we are expecting since the president is belongs to a party which is supported by the opposition therefore the forthcoming government also will be a national government we have a hope that we this kind of a Political climate is rare in Sri Lanka. That means both the major parties are together in the power At the same time we have a serious problem that we do not have local mechanism to go for a resolution Because within the country last 60 years we had so many exercises agreements dialogues and disownment betrayals, etc So that's what now the Tamil's completely lost trust on any Sri Lanka's governments That's why they wanted the interference of the United Nations or the international community to directly involve it and Assure a solution a sustainable solution. I think is in September United Nations Human Rights Commission will be coming out with a investigation report on the Human right violation and the war crimes in Sri Lanka. I do not know exactly what will be the outcome Whatever it may be, but from that based on that I expect that United Nations Can involve With the new government and to find a solution that is the only Practicable way out. I I I hope Otherwise as he said of course there are some good good spaces there We can do it. It is not there are a number of friends. I had a lot of friends amongst English He's also my friend. We were working together many times, but when it comes to solution There are a lot of other forces. They simply influence and encroach and collapse it So in Sri Lanka now the hotliners are in upper hand Whether it is Rajapaksa's regime or even in the present ruling regime also within that the hotliners are still powerful and they are very much Supported and abated by number of forces outside Therefore it is not that easy that as he said that we find out or thrash out a solution within the framework of Sri Lanka and within the within the Domestic mechanism or using the domestic mechanism. There is no domestic mechanism at all Therefore, it is very much important the active and concrete involvement of the United Nations with a new government Then only we can have Solution or sustainable solution to the problem and Tamils since they do not believe because in Sri Lanka we have 75% of singular Buddhist and rasta rasta Tamil speaking therefore and also As I told that the governing philosophy is that the it is a single a Buddhist state Therefore, they are always have a vulnerability that any time a solution whether it is federal or whatever its autonomous solution can be simply Manipulated or maneuvered through a constitution by the majority therefore it needs a kind of a underwrite of any solution by the United Nations This is what the Tamils are expecting from the last 60 years of war and 60 years of struggle and the agreements and the betrayals and the disownments of Whatever we had came through I am very much Optimistic and very much believe because I was working in Kalama University for 20 years I have a lot of friends on all all communities personally that doesn't mean that The different Mindset of the people this the Sri Lankan community the Tamils and single is it is kind of a vertical division in all spheres of the life The same political issue or the same problem is given Absolutely opposite by the two different medias to communities medias So like that it is The same issue is portrayed by the singular leaders to the singular masses differently and Tamil leaders to definitely That means that kind of a vertical. So here what I say it is the kind of a conflict between the fact and myth There is what I feel is fundamentally the problem for conflict and and the impediment for any kind of a solution is kind of a Identity construction issue of the single is and The denial of the Tamil identity So therefore there is a fundamental it needs a kind of a paradigm shift on the thinking of the singular people the thinking of the singular people is stemmed from or promote by the literatures and the Propaganda's of Singular and the Buddhist monks and the section of the heartline people So it is to be changed It is not easy to change that but it needs a will and and guards to the Singular political leaders to say the truth to the people instead of construct the mythological matters as an identity So therefore That's why I said that the domestic mechanism is very much Blurred Unvulnerable and not very strong If there is a domestic mechanism is available and is there is a any strong mechanism in the last 60 years We would have been Threshold some kind of solution so therefore the the involvement of sort of a Concrete involvement of the United Nations is necessary And I hope that forthcoming government will be a national government So there is no partisan politics that one will pull the carpet of the other The chances are less therefore That opportunity should be utilized by the United Nations on the interest of a Nation that is the termination of Sri Lanka In that case we will have a very good the island I mean island that as a paradise of the earth as in as as we usually in Sri Lanka Propocating the island sort of paradise of the earth the island so real paradise will come after that so the reconciliation in Sri Lanka is Very much precondition on any kind of sustainable Resolution so the sustainable resolution Still not haven't come there were times Some hope that at Chandrika's period or in 1956 and 1958 agreements then everything's got short-lived and toppled by partisan politics continuously in that so With this It is seems to be Specific but not the optimism comes in different context. I do have optimism and We are working towards that Of course All we need a reconciliation Brotherhood and a dignified life as equal citizens in the island but the approach Is different What is my context is we even though both feel The aim is same for us All the idea is We will have reconciliation After a sustainable solution is formed and we hope that with the forthcoming new government With the support of united nations or the number of International forces We can find a solution and to work for a Reconciliation and once it'll anger On this Yeah, on this on this note I will Stop my remark And I think so that will take over that. Yeah Well, the idea is the trouble respond to Sorry comments. There are a lot of comments Do you want to pick up some things that you want to respond to first and come back to them later? Yeah? I just want to say this I'm not here to hear holding brief for Sri Lankan state I'm a fierce critic of consecutive Sri Lankan governments and its behavior and Also known people know That for last three decades how much I have contributed for the rights issue of the Tamil people But on the same time I Have a credit I have a criticism for Tamil political action From the middle point Now if you look at the service statement Sarvesh not was not bothered to say anything about his side Right every blame was put into the state Now we know when you talk about the Negotiations happened in 2003 who has to be blamed Have anybody done a proper research on that? I'm not going to blame anybody But when Sarvesh talks about Plan genocide now what about in Same humanitarian law if some party uses a civilian as a human shield So will it not considered as a contributor effect? So I'm not going to react for Sarvesh every statement He has a truth as well as rhetoric from Sri Lankan government side also the same They touched the truth and also goes with the rhetorics. So what is the that is my initial remarks also? That's what I said the challenge is To find the middle ground That is the reality now now Sarvesh statement is very emotional For those who have not studied the the Sri Lankan conflict Actually, everybody would have been moved by his statement. That is true. That is politics But conflict resolution is something else We are here. I'm here to see and say With an optimism. I was optimistic in 2003. I was optimistic in 2094 even tomorrow I would start my work with certain optimism That's how we work because we are not part of this both side Unfortunately, this middle group is not powerful in Sri Lanka Both sides hurling Accusations as well as blames each other That's what happened. So that's my initial remark for Sarvesh This is in any country it is Responsibility of any democratic government to deliver good governance as I earlier explained that the Philosophy or the ideology that governs the single a Buddhist society. That's a fundamental problem from that because of that the conflict arose and escalated Therefore it is always the ball is at the court of the government to go for a good governance or to rectify the problems You cannot put the ball on us because we are in the vulnerable side and we are in the We are the victims and we are the so in a police station You cannot go and ask that it's a police station supposed to look after the law and order. They cannot blame us that what Why you are doing something that so it is like that it is not you if if I am the government It is different. It is between two governments. It is different, but we are suppressed society Chauvinistic regime So therefore if you say that to vulnerable section always take guard to Protect themselves So it is it is true that there are a number of criticisms on the part of the When it comes to armed conflict the when the use of arms, there will be a lot of Rights and wrongs that is there that we cannot confuse with the cause of The struggle the cause of the struggle is different from the What they call the means to to the end? When we apply the means there may be you have you may have criticism you may have rights and wrongs But the cause is not challenged enter world is accept the cause of the Tamils therefore, I Think the cause if we have we are talking always about to to address the root cause of the conflict but always the successive governments Trying to show Lollipop to crying child in hunger This is the attitude always, but all they always say that I mean always always this kind of rhetoric of resolution the last 60 years why we were not unable to trash out because of we were living under continuous rhetorics of Singular political leaders leaders They were successful of keeping the international community to Believe on that rhetoric, but it is after this war only international community found that of course there was There were sort of a plant things It's a sort of a plant attacks on civilians the proofs came and on that They are look they are asking for accountability so from that what I would like to say it is the Responsibility of the government it is does not mean that The People do not have any responsibility, but they are a suppressed community They are always in a kind of a defensive position to protect them Therefore, you cannot it is difficult to blame on that part to to to to to protect yourself You may go to any extent Okay, I had a notice to cover kind of contradiction in both the things you said On the one hand you said nothing can be done except psychosocial reconciliation where you said I'm optimistic You said nothing can be done unless there's a political solution, but I'm optimistic So there has to be something Wrong there because other things are gonna get better now that we have a new president and may have a new government Or they're not Right, so I'd ask you to please I May be the turn it off Maybe I talked to my Could you explain why you think we should be optimistic? Yeah, in in conflict resolution you as a conflict resolution practitioner if you don't have optimism you can't deal with conflicts Right the first thing second thing is When in negotiations we use that basket theory Now you have several eggs in the basket But first you have to select the egg where you can make the omelette Right. So in my context my my opinion Reconciliation the word reconciliation reconciliation is I have to achieve in Sri Lanka There's no argument but Now when you talk about reconciliation there are three facets for reconciliation the one is the political reconciliation second is psychosocial reconciliation and third is victim perpetrator reconciliation Now this word reconciliation is used normally in conflict resolution parlance In post negotiated negotiation periods Not in post war periods Now if you look at the civil war in America They never used the words reconciliation. There's called minimum 10% program Why is that? You know this is the problem with the previous government of Sri Lanka they gave Unnecessary hopes by using certain words which are not applicable to the context Now if you look at the way how the war ended You had a victor and a defeated Now in such a context it's very difficult to have a victim perpetrator reconciliation forgiving and forgetting is not possible Where everybody is going after each other's blood Right. So we can talk But it is not possible on the other hand the political reconciliation is a perennial problem for Sri Lanka for last several decades Which has not happened on various reasons So to me that's why I had the my initial remarks also I said What is the problem to me the problem of Sri Lanka? I fully agree with the with but Sarvesha said it is the responsibility of the state. No, no, no arguments but even to Resettle with the state, but you have to identify the state problem Now look at the history in Oslo When we declared it as a Oslo declaration from the Tamil action political action said no, no, it's not a declaration. It's a communique what happened when we try to develop a Contours of the conflict based on internal self-determination the Tamil political action refused To accept it That's what that is history when when I tried to go and conduct a Workshop for the LTT cadres on As a member of civil society in that they never they never wanted to do that So on the same time service is blaming the history. I'm not going to blame anybody that very carefully I'm using my words. I don't want to blame anybody But what we want is to understand the problem There is an issue on that although we pretend that there is no issue to me personally the Sri Lankan issue is it's it's want of Political liberty and political equality of Tamil people In a way we can say it is the self-determination self-determination of the Tamil people But then how to convert that into action? What is the solution whether now some group says we want separate state? And other group says we want confederation. Another group says no federal Right from state it is unitary Minimum of unitary decentralization to devolution So in this spectrum There are groups who are fighting ideologically and Academically, this is what happened in Sri Lanka Although thousands of conflict resolution efforts have applied in Sri Lanka The mere small thing has not happened. So that is the reality So what I have to say on that that this whole thing Reconciling yes, there's a contradiction when we talk about human conflicts But I am optimistic and On the other hand when I say on the same breath when I say that there is a problem I consider it that the two sides of a coin But coin goes on. So that's my approach. So otherwise you can't resolve this Just being cynical about it. Why should we be optimistic what I mean if I mean May I answer for that Sudha? Yes, you can be cynical. You can give up the optimism Then what you have to do? They have to wage a war Then what happened? The cycle once again goes back So I know when I say so it's very unfair and suffocating and putting a suffocating idea Right. So what else you have to then fight with us nation state And establishes a separate state if you don't have the optimism then that is the only solution In a very brutal manner, I am saying Well, that's precisely why I would see you that you have this wide spectrum of People who don't believe that reconciliation is possible But you made a very specific claim. You said that because the new president has come in and because 10 years of autocracy is over Therefore, we should be optimistic about peace and reconciliation. Yeah, so that if you look at the government statements right now on reconciliation We have stated the availability of the Sri Lankan state to develop a local mechanism on Transitional justice issue. So So how to do it and when to do that is a question But the basic principle if you look at the manifestos of the do two sides Both sides had agreed that local mechanism would be available in Sri Lanka Okay, as I say already said that we had a long Decades long struggle and number of attempt in domestic level and ended with Absolutely a waste exercise That is why I explained already it no need to Respond it back. But of course the present government appointed Chandrika Bandar Naya cause chairmanship a reconciliation committee But still not The picture is very clear, but the committee is formed But so far they did not come out with any kind of Plans or ideas or proposals But as I told earlier as long as the the governing philosophy is not changed The domestic working of functioning of domestic mechanism is a big question therefore the the long Experience of Tamils from the site of the single list the sort of a lot of agreements and what do you call? Dialogue level acceptance words were disowned continuously the committee lost trust That is why the Sri Lankan politics sort of this conflict is externalized and internationalized and The Tamils searching for the support of the international support to intervene and to find a solution. I'm not Opposing if there is any very good mechanism emerge in Sri Lanka, but that is what I guess is it is an illusion or imagination But what I feel is optimism should be on what you call some kind of possible cards This is we are planning to Bring out local mechanism. Of course, there is a good exercise and good effort. I Appreciate and accept and even I may support it it's no problem, but it is it is To my knowledge it is more of an illusion. There is no such Fertile ground for that as I told you now the heartliners are very much powerful in the Sri Lankan politics, whether it is in Opposition or in the government sector They are always crop up on times of any kind of a resolution attempt the heartliners simply crop up and they simply pull the carpet and roll down the People who are in the top level and effort even President say see the Buddhist monks are opposing what can I do the prime minister say see the singular people are opposing What can I do? This is the whole exercise of from 1940s to now Of course, I I I very much appreciate my friend his optimism I am also optimistic as he said that how if you say that you are not Believing the domestic mechanism and how you can have the Optimism of course as I told that why we are looking for the United Nations involvement because the Domestic mechanism of course there will be a domestic climate because of Nonpartisan situation will be there in the forthcoming new government. We believe That means two opposition parties. I mean two major parties got together and formed the government Therefore, there will be no partisan politics and one will not pull the carpet of the other so the climate will be better and The position of international community to it's easy to handle it Therefore we I say it is an optimistic and we are working towards that end. I Do not say that we are against Any kind of good efforts actually we appreciate because it needs the good efforts and that's a good what you call Good sentiments and change of mind. It is very much necessary to thrash out a solution as I said in the forthcoming No, that is true. I mean I have no argument or I have I have no But I would like to bring this whole discussion into a new new line From from the beginning when Sarvesh said that this Planned genocide happened in Sri Lanka. I totally disagree with that when you apply the Nuremberg principles You you have to prove certain elements to Prove that planned genocide. I I I agree there are civilian casualties. There's no argument and also I agree with Sarvesh when I said even one civilian has died The Sri Lankan state has to be responsible and the government cannot escape from that responsibility. That is true But now when it comes to international law, there are Three kinds of laws apply would apply for Sri Lankan context one is international criminal law The second is humanitarian law and third is human rights violations Now if you study whatever Darustan report or Australian law evidence project or whatever report Study carefully as from lawyers point of view. I'm saying the the responsibility vacillate between Human rights violation and humanitarian law violation So if you look at the Sri Lankan point of view, that's why I'm saying that I'm not going to defend the gun the Sri Lankan state, but you have to take it from the point of the context Ultimately even you you even you ended up with a tribunal. It's matter of lawyers to argue right, so How I going to attribute the responsibility That's an issue What about the contributory negligence or contributory aspect of this whole affair? Yes, there was certain issues where you cannot escape where I firmly believe and I firmly lobby that those cases must be tried Within the Sri Lankan court system for that what you have to do is You have to introduce a certain amendment to the Sri Lankan penal code which brings in International law violation Responsibility and convert into a penal Responsibility we had done something like that in 1995 96 When we ratified the torture convention we introduced a piece of legislation because we have a dualist nature of Constitution where you had to bring in the whatever the international law through a Legislation through the parliament We brought a legislation and create a new jurisdiction under the high court system To indict whoever committed torture Torturing in Sri Lanka and there are so many cases filed and tried before high courts so likewise although I Mean there's a natural natural Sri Lankan Sri Lankan judicial system time to time You know, we have a ring from independence it was the partisan thing But now if you look at the recent two cases tried before high court One is that JVP time killing One SSP ASP was indicted and charged Sentence and also that massacre case all were convicted. So I firmly believe that In in in the perspective of larger reconciliation If you want to Not that not that I'm trying to mitigate the responsibility of Sri Lankan state, but If you want to think about larger reconciliation You have to go for a local Mechanism if you want to separate from Sri Lanka The Tamil community then go for international Tribunal those are the two option we in in front of us morally What is service is saying is correct morally But pragmatically if you look at the problem, these are the options So I do not think that I have to explain more because my friend even he accept that it's morally right So on the moral grounds that is the government is Politics are not moral. No, no, no, it's it's not so Things we are expecting What what you what you say is we have to if we want to be one country or reconciliation then we need to Await these issues or forget these issues Because the singular people will get angry Or if you want to go separate then you can go to international community and international course What I said is even in any in any society it is even without conflict if Injustice is done Then to restore the justice is a natural need and How can you deny that? May I interrupt Saroj for a minute? No, no, I there's a there's a gap what I have said because you understood wrongly because there's an ongoing process That is Maxwell Paranagama Commission, which I also believe is not not perfect, right? What you have to do is first you have to identify the affected Families and people so that is the data Then only you have to come to that Otherwise, I'm not I'm not that harsh to say that you have to put everything on the carpet and you wait the Initial mark remark I told that it is basically the duty of the government to take the entire data of the On the war affected people how many people were killed how many became offense How many became under chronological illness of shell attack? No need that there are In one district the clinic itself is five more than five thousand disabled people. They lost limbs and I mean Legs or hands or whatever Many hundreds of students. I mean even the students more than 400 students still have self pieces in their body in I Mean very frequently they faint in schools and vomit in schools and like that and we are doing it through the through the provincial council ministries the doctors and we are we are trying to address these issues, but even I brought Resolution in the provincial council northern provincial council to take a complete data in the northern province because we can do it in the Northern province itself only the eastern province has supposed to do it because central government is always blocking even to go for an independent kind of for taking this kind of data and Even a provincial council when we take that is also blocked by army when we go it's in every wise army It is 150,000 armies then each and every village and one week people goes and they are immediately intermediate intermediate and So we cannot do it practically. So it is it needs a central government support to do it if we want to do it this without the central government support and central government supposed to say the intelligence and the army to Stay inside and and and allow the work without which we cannot do it because otherwise simply they'll arrest us also This is the situation in Sri Lanka. So situation is entirely different actually as not as he said So the data how is a government supposed to take the data support, but government do not want to take the data's there are some data's from the Divisional secret level, but that is it is not very how do you say? It is very much erroneous I know a lot of people are afraid to give data to the government side because always Intelligence simply entered the house and okay, if they keep that okay, my son is killed in the war So immediately they say you are the former LTT terrorist They arrest still after the war the prevention of terrorism act is strengthened further and grossly abused to take always to to to terrorize The tunnels by whenever they won't they take youths or people Arrest simply under prevention of terrorism act There is for one and a half years you can put them in the behind the bars without without any trial or anything So this is still there therefore this kind of under this kind of Military rule and the prevention track only in law only we are living So that's why when he says I'm emotional I am part of the society. I know I'm a friend But still I'm part of the society and I'm working with the society for the societies every day We are facing such problems That's why I'm talking. So if I'm emotional, I'm sorry if I'm emotional, but it is fact 100% fact Oh Okay, well, I'll ask a question. I'm your lawyer, right? So the the PTA right people detain under the PTA people not charged or Released is a perennial problem Which has happened in previous government and every time new government comes as expectation Because there's new government things will be dead. Can we expect things to change? You know the PTA which I don't agree. It's a very draconian Peace of law in Sri Lanka PTA applied Similarly to the JVP or singhala rebels also Sri Lanka. It is not a piece of legislation which purposely aim that Tamils It is a tool used by state To contain Rebellion which I don't agree philosophical but In the immediate future the chances of abolishing PTA is not there frankly saying because But you can shelve it for instance in last several two or three years the Attorney General's department has not indicted People under the PTA So it would be a weapon in a Pandora's box. We are state will time-to-time I'm saying that's how the states are thinking Because states are not hermits Right, so we have to understand the reality But that's what I meant that people are still arrested under PTA, but they're not charged So this is not a question of abolishing the law, but actually applying the rule of law No, I mean now I think my my according to my knowledge The people are arrested in case of arrest Under the normal law under the emergency law, but not on the PTA unless in extreme cases right now You lost the hand now, but In the future also excuse me that Emergency is removed. Yeah, that's true, but time-to-time you can you can Implement it by the president Very extreme situations. We have seen PTA was used But our our argument for the government is that you need not to have a PTA because under the penal code Offensives against the state is there so you can work. So you need not to have a Unfortunately, this was borrowed from British government Right the PTA if you look at the preamble the preamble is Straight away imported from British PTA. So the various countries are using as states Although we don't like that, but I think gradually the you Utilization of that piece of legislation will be declined Why? You know that now the not from this What you call from the democratic point of view There's a opinion within the society that using of PTA is Not suitable in decent societies Okay Do you have a comment? No, that is this interview. That's what I don't I don't I cannot Public dialogue it's very polite Okay, I had another question right You talked about the middle ground What what is the middle ground? They're depending on the issue now. There are so many middle grounds in Sri Lankan context one is when in relation to the The conflict that policy conflict between the Tamil political action and the state So the middle ground for that is as I said earlier Ensuring the political liberty and the political equality for the people of North and east then converting into that into action is based on the solution solution still it's not possible to Understand what is the best solution for Sri Lanka on the other hand reconciliation Reconciliation when it comes to reconciliation or transitional justice Middle ground is Accepting the fact that civilians have died in the hands of Whoever right so state has to acknowledge and apologize Right, so that is a middle ground. So with that now now whether we are going to International mechanism or local mechanism is not the issue First the state has to acknowledge Terrible thing happened in my overhead on the same time if you take the South African thing Somebody out. There is nobody to take the responsibility from the Tamil side So they also have to acknowledge that something happened from our hand For civilians not for anybody what the state Civilians were affected from both ends that is a fact unfortunately that is not discussed in the international forum from point of view of human rights human rights activists or humanitarian law activists I have to say that from both sides violated the human rights the civilian rights but unfortunately that that that issue is not coming and There is nobody to take responsibility For those atrocities because there is nobody to claim that I represent the LTT That there's nobody to say I Don't know whether Mr. Adi even know somebody will come forward and say no we are responsible, but there's nobody That is a there is other problem of this issue The both part is used civilians for their own names That is a fact So that's I at the beginning I said when you politicize the issue you put the you start the blame game We need a middle ground as well as a middle group of people to look at this from objective point of view Anyways, I never Say that when I talk about the responsibility of the government And I do not say that only the government has to come out with the casualties of Thomas It is the whole picture Of course, it is at the worst time or in the last four when we talk so far about this last four The hundred forty six thousand what I said is in the last four in the last almost in the last month But Entire Entire thirty years of war. It is more than three hundred thousand people Tamils were killed Of course number of single is also over killed in bombing in singler civilian in train in bus stand in Areas I agree with that. I Don't say that I'm not talking about single civilian. I'm talking about Tamil civilians No, no, that's what I'm in the hand of both the sides what I say is that the killing of both sides so I Don't Disagree with that. So it is necessary to come out with that. But that is when we talk From the beginning. It's about the last last four and the legacy of the last four It is not the entire entire system So if it is entire thing, then it is it is as he said it is that part is also there That is also to be addressed. I'm not denying that Okay, I think we might Open up to the floor So I'm going to propose I'm going to propose is I'll take three sets of questions And could you indicate to either of both person you want to respond? I Would encourage you to ask robust questions, but please don't give speeches I reserve the right to shut you down if you start giving a speech So it's one person here your hand up, please and And one person there That wasn't there and if people could introduce themselves as well, please Also you mentioned the fact Person was killed by the state. That's with early investigated according to Etc. That's very good However, now you are also discussing about reaching me Just before I came for this meeting. I read a new split from It says Pranik becomes in our asset We will protect Mahindra both the once a car from war crime probe You and you if that is the case Okay, thank you You're asking from me. Let's take three questions. And then at the back there led the front here I think both talked about reconciliation. I think it's a very wonderful word especially when it comes to conflict resolution and the conflict resolution NGOs and everyone's talk about Reconciliation and it's a wonderful word. I think even the hardliners won't disagree for Conflict resolution we've been voting parties or at least openly don't disagree But my question is I can understand the tumble people's urge for reconciliation because they put them to survive in the island They have to reconcile with the other party. I can understand that But what's the motivation for the singular people to? Come forward and support this reconciliation process Even the current situation even parliamentarians from Survey students party Tamil National Alliance Say don't say a few words that will antagonize the singular public words such as political words like Federalism self-determination Even 13 plus some some says some people say that 13 plus is equivalent to cessation So I don't know how What's the motivation and how you're going to do this reconciliation? Hi James Engel from the Commonwealth Secretariat. I just want to ask both speakers what faith they would place in the practical advantage that the National Human Rights Commission could play in as a national Level institution, but one which should in a normative respect be independent of the state So what role it could play either in its in its current state with its current commissioners or in a in an ideal way About the role of the Human Rights Council Human Rights Commission Of course, we have we have Human Rights Council in Sri Lanka But It has no power actually they can simply record it and that is why the previous not previous before Now neither plate is what's the name Yeah, Robinson So she came to Sri Lanka and said that Sri Lanka's Human Rights Council is do not have teeth It is simply Record the things and also government Do not give any power. They are unable to do anything Therefore the branch of the United Nations Human Rights Council should be established in Kalambu That was her Proposal and it was vehemently opposed by Rajapaksa Rajeeb This is the status in Sri Lanka the Human Rights Council is for the namesake They are unable to do anything that is if that council functions effectively or that council works it For its goal then there is no need we go to Geneva and Complain There's a long and council would have been done. That's why I all along said the domestic all the mechanisms are completely Policized or It is not just for the namesake to show to the world that we have all the systems we have But all the batteries are removed. They will not function. Do you want to comment on the other two speakers? No, what he said is almost the same question. I Raised and also he asked the question the what does the motivation that is as because of your optimism side He asked it Okay on on mr. Anil Vikram Singh a statement That's why I said in this game. There are a lot of rhetorics. So don't Wother about rhetorics in politics But on the other hand, that's that's fine. Yeah, even in my presentation. Also. I mentioned mention this I also personally argued argues that there is no planned genocide in Sri Lanka So when I say that planned genocide if there was a planned genocide come on Structure is also responsible and you have to prove there's a policy National policy to kill Stamill civilians Now, you know the the the proceedings of the Nuremberg trial What happened? Right, so the rhetorically you can say But I have my own doubt as a lawyer international law student of international law, I mean Without aligning to any any side My personal view is that there is no plan genocide So if there is no plan genocide Then you can't you can attribute that to Mahindra Ajapakso concept but There may be several other official officers Who are responsibility? Responsible for atrocities that you have to go into so I don't know mr. Vikram Singh. I must have told Such a statement with that kind of Idea in the mind so this is my interpretation So for the second thing I think Singhalese wants reconciliation because we want stability The country we want stability you can't continue with this Conflict forever if you want to flourish if you want to stable if you want to have a because now Sri Lanka is a Middle-income country, right? It needs this Harmony it needs Multicultural harmony and multicultural stability Without that you can't think about FD is you can't think about economy right, so and also the other wise other thing is This when you have this kind of war you create dictators Now dictator ultimately takes the democratic life of the whole country So it's a it's a vicious circle. So therefore, I know life-minded people I mean people who can understand the the problem of Singhalese community understand and they they work for that they want to resolve this They don't want to see that this will continue forever So that's so therefore there are certain Opportunity costs Where singhala community has to think that's why time-to-time except this previous government All government try to resolve it Right for the third question the National Human Rights Commission and Human Rights Council are two different notions I agree with the Sarvesh that in Sri Lanka the National Human Rights Commission does not have teeth You have to amend that and you have to give more powers in relation to the implementation Decisions of the National Human Rights Commission So lot of things have to be done in that area and I also agree that even in in in in in future Futuristic reconciliation process We anticipate that Human Rights Commission can play much more bigger role in arbitration organizing Abitrating between the state and the affected civilians So commission would be a good arbitrator in that if you because now after the 19th Amendment Human Rights Commission is also considered as one of the Commission To be functioned under the Constitutional Council. So it is depoliticized Now right now it is politicized institution. So once you depoliticize You can expect more results from the Human Rights Commission Okay, let's take some more questions One two three Hi, my name is Arani from Kingston University London and We've heard a lot about the kind of Higher-level political reconciliation things and I guess I want to talk more about your role There's middle-tier leaders and what you understand for more local level Reconciliation and we've heard from a lot of men today and my question really is about the role of women in the psychosocial Reconciliation on the ground especially considering the war legacy of so many female-headed households and their vulnerability in the north and the east I'm Brendan O'Duffie from Queen Mary. I have two questions, but they're quick Does the emerging competition? Among or within the Tamil diaspora groups in the UK and elsewhere. Does that make reconciliation? Easier or more difficult The second question is related. I think Is 13 plus Still a basis for some sort of stable constitutional settlement. Hi My name's Josh from Kings and this is to both gentlemen And if no real pray progress is made towards a truth and reconciliation process by the new government over the coming years All months does then the UN have illegal as well as a moral duty to interfere under their own responsibility to protect charter and If you believe they do have a responsibility, how much time should we give the new government? To match their words with actions Yeah on role of women I I am very proud to say that at the moment I Think service would also agree with me the win. There's a organization called women in need with the support of Asia Foundation, I know that very Powerful very effective counseling service is conducted in North and North Northern province On psychosocial reconciliation More affected families are But the issue is the magnanimity of the issue Does not allow us to say that In the psychosocial reconciliation is happening at that level Women groups are working and women are more empowered in new conditions To do that, but still it is not happening as a state policy Most of the NGOs and civil society involved with that But I would say that The techniques and experience is there and I know that the wind is working with the provincial council health ministry Northern provincial council that knowledge and Experience what they have developed through that project can be Utilize in future grand scale program I have nothing to say about diaspora competition and I don't know much about that 13 plus is the basis for next negotiation 13 plus there is no such a thing The that was Mr. Mahendra Rajapaksa's hallucination I Would say 13 is a basis 13 is a basis. I mean there are two views on that my my personal view is use 13 improve that structure in because if you look at the as Sarvesha's told earlier In every part every country we have spoilers. You can't expect Spoilerless negotiations, right? So what you have to do is How to deal with spoilers is the most important thing So if you are going for a new constitution entirely new constitution, you have to go for referendum because of the existing entrance Clauses are there. So referendum will give a sort of a problematic Challenge for transformation therefore if we can use the 13th amendment as a basis and improve the structures improve the Order even unilaterally you can do that My argument my personal argument that the concurrent list cannot be and can the government state can not utilize in favor of the state So then you can throw the finance commission. You can put more money To North North and East Provincial Council then come to the next next stage like Dealing with land powers or other introducing new powers. So now if you look at the India It took 20 years to see a matured states It came 1970s. Now look at the Belfast agreement Now after 10 years of Belfast agreement they gave police powers Right. So the problem is this discourse is awkward now international Information is there but those information are used at your will so but the in given situation my argument is use 13th amendment as a platform and gradually improve because when it happens time will Develop the necessary confidence among the south also Right. So that is very vital for me. I mean I know that when I say that you have to develop the Southern consensus you will ask somebody will ask How can you expect how many time you had more? How long you had to wait? In this game, so I don't know but this is my point of view Time period the fourth question That's question about How long should the international committee give you? I Don't think this time that time will be given I mean There would be a report definitely That's what I feel from Geneva, right? So but recommendation will not come There would be a primary prima facie report Based on that then It'll go to the working group one and see whether What is the proper mechanism to do that handle such prima facie evidence? So then it's a responsibility of the government. I don't think that the time Factor Is in favor of Sri Lankan? So I think I can say something about The role of woman and the woman affected it is I am in the last two years as a provincial councillor working in the northern province among conservatively among women and Especially the WRD is called woman rural development societies They formed as societies actually this they were formed to get government benefits such as micro corrects, etc, but a lot of Organizations are going out of fun, but from these WRDs if you go to the northern province from 30 to 50 percent widows I don't say all up all our woe widows, but of course including woe widows So sort of 30 to 50 percent in the in the every every village WRDs you have From my allocation of course in this time the 2200,000 I allocated for 22 societies But a lot of people they have a lot of problem because the woman-hated families Even they do not know what they can do to empower them They do not even idea of themselves. We discussed for hours and hours and then Then now we are planning to Go for a provincial through provincial council some new projects with small Capital to get their livelihood Programs that kind of a programs we are working out in that case another thing that the counseling matter it is It was there by number of some NGOs But it is also to there's a negative side that previous governor of Jaffna I mean northern province Stopped appropriately for certain areas the counseling because he said that those who are on counseling are sort of a some intelligence of International community this and that and all these things or it is it is a kind of a security threat issue something like that Then it was we we protested and then the new government It is let loose to work work for that allowed to work that This is on the part of it is actually the war Created a large number of woman-hated families and and and it needs a lot of things to address that part of And we are trying our best to address those part But that is not adequate. We know that we we are we are planning new new ideas on that second point the 13th plus the concept is It is a time-to-time Indian government said To Sri Lankan government that go for 13 plus or 13 plus plus etc. It is very weak kind of a language what They mean the plus and what does Sri Lankan? I mean President Rajapaksha fell plus and Rajapaksha said what I said that plus means Senate Bring out the Senate that means a second chamber or to the parliament and then that is actually it's anyway it's Wake that is also a vague idea but when My friends roll said it is a 13th amendment matters the starting point. I would say 13 them and I don't want to go into detail. I can explain it, but it is a time time constraint is there but 13th amendment can implement absolutely at the mercy of the president If president don't like you cannot do it simply he can through the governor and the chief secretary through through what you call Administrative mechanism you can cripple the provincial council system The last one and a half years we were crippled and now we started functioning. I Think you know that Yes difficult question to answer So that is that is the one part is that is as I said because the another point I would make that previous foreign affairs minister Professor J. L. Perry's Go in international forums. He openly accepted that the provincial council systems Serious fundamental flows and it cannot be What do you call it cannot be a solution? We have to go for a Mean we had to enrich or we had to go for Kind of a new solution Third point the police matter. It is already they are in the constitution. Of course, it is not absolute police power but from Constable to ASP a provincial council can recruit and give promotions That is part of the constitution, but for last 25 years the government is openly Denying to implement the constitution part of And even the professor present Rajabakso openly in every other day said I will not give you the police power I will not give you the land power that is part of the constitution That means a president took oath on the constitution and openly violating the constitution in open forums If I do that it is a violation of constitution. It is it is I will be behind the bus But president openly said that he is supposed to protect constitution and Implement the constitution said I will not implement it This is the situation this police power is there. I mean it is not absolute police power But at least a partial police power is there in the constitution, but from the beginning I mean in 1987 the Indoleng agreement came and the 13th amendment came and still it is not implemented and all the presidents are Denying to implement That time not sure but it is already I mean it is almost like a promise is given by the UNHRC chairman that It will be released by September May I say something on that 19th amendment thing my Why I said that it is difficult to answer 90 through 19th amendment the finance commission or there are certain commission can be Utilize as independent bodies, but the governor's power Is not controlled So therefore yes, and no answer I have to give you Okay, we'll take an it's eight o'clock. I think we might continue for a little bit longer We'll take another three questions I've ignored that there so one white shirt And Three All right fine fine. It's your show Thank you so much I have to say that I'm Colombian so I'm an ignorant on these matters My name is André Gomez and I'm a lecturer at Los Angeles University in Bogota But I'm so glad to be here because we in Colombia have a peace process and from what I've heard today We have pretty much the same problem And this is the issue that I want to raise to you because in the in the case what I've heard is that Both sides or the three sides that I can identify here the Tamils the hardliners and the government that is not a hardliner at the moment both are somehow minimizing The responsibilities that they have in terms of causing victims during the during the armed conflict and and my and I think this shows that there is that the first victim of an armed conflict is morality and That's the reason why I'm reacting a bit harshly on something that you said when you said that politics You know, it's not about morality when it it should be about morality And when you really have something going on at the moment It shouldn't be because of the economic cost benefit that you are gonna gain out of it But because you want to restore morality so my question to both of you is How are we gonna do in come in countries like Colombia and Sri Lanka to restore morality and that could be a way For reconciliation. Thank you My name is Artica. I'm an economist and I work in a development bank in London my question is on a comment that you made on the fact that you're a little less optimistic on Reconciliation in terms of victim perpetrator reconciliation So this might seem like quite an naive question, but I know very little about the background but what do you think is the threat of the same kind of movement that Grew in the in the Tamil community happening again and if there is such a threat what's being done at the grassroots to prevent this kind of Movement sprouting up again If there is not this reconciliation going on at the grassroots level Thank you Sri Lankan problem is a very complicated problem and it's very vicious So we need We have lots of thorns and shards on the long way to Reconciliation so we may not be able to have one go to resolve the conflict, but we may have to Remove lots of thorns lots of shards on the way like for example like implementing official policy or meeting the needs of Homeless damaged houses building houses or giving employment youth or fishing restrictions or farming things like that We have to look at small small things Remedy them so we will reach the recon the path or the ultimate goal. So how is that anybody doing that? Let me go back to one of the overarching themes of the event and the series and That's this role of middle-tier leaders and You've spoken a lot about your respective roles at the elite level and maybe it's because we Interrogated both of you for two hours each this morning on your role as middle-tier leaders But I'm just wondering if you could say a little bit more about that you've both been involved in a range of initiatives the one-text initiative Various workshops other processes that try to connect national and community level peace and reconciliation Just wondering if you could say a little bit more about that and how do you? Bring grassroots level actors into these national discussions that you've already been talking about. Thanks Yeah, actually that was the first question I asked you to come back to Do you understand? Yeah It's a morality No, it's Who may have to ask? Morality was from back there How do you restore morality to Sri Lanka? Anyways moral itself as a concept morality itself is differ from society to society Something is moral to me may be moral to you That is a basic problem But as earlier I explain Here in Sri Lanka. It's seriously. There are a number of dimensions of the conflict. So the one dimension is That the conflict between the fact and myth that's why we say it is Does the the the activities of the singular polity of the attitude of the singular polity is immoral But the singular polity it is not kind of a rationally challenged, but using their Government power or the ruling power and the military They are just what you call they are challenging Authoritatively not rationally So the question of moral and immoral I think it's this part number one Number two when it comes to reconciliation If it is both the side become Turned to be rational then I think reconciliation is very easy task So because it's a it's a it's a conflict between a rational and irrational was a moral and immoral So we are the change should be need. I don't think that Tamils are for a long Decades yearning for peace and reconciliation But not as slaves, but with the dignified citizens with equal status That is the problem, but when My friend said it is single is also wanted the my problem is he accept that the Sri Lankan Government system is not the majority democracy, but majoritarian democracy The majoritarianism means it's at the cost of the minority, you know is the meaning it is the interest at the cost of the minority So therefore you can understand now the the the conflict we are the conflict lies So it needs as I earlier said it needs a kind of a Trastic change in the mindset The philosophy that the mythical philosophy that governs a single a politics should be changed They're supposed to accept the truth They have to reconcile with the truth with the fact Then the reconciliation is no more an issue Automatically it will reach to the point the second question on the grassroot level participation No, actually it's about whether It'll be about a return to conflict Yeah Yeah, it is it is it is it is it is actually still a simmering issue because The war it is a huge Made a huge damage to Indian or the eastern province men and material wise so people are very much What do you call in a very? Very low in moral, but at the same time they it's a large section of the population still is kind of what do you call like The social of it means simmering the feeling But they cannot do anything because they are completely under Army that means I am not saying that they are going to take up arms, but that much of Suppression much more than On the period of war is now so That is why as Madam said was the question After the war usually in many democracies They used to address the war atrocities and war crimes or War damages that is the first priority in Sri Lanka in the last six years after the war is from Not even a single budget They specifically put any Allocation or anything for war atrocities or war damages or whatever completely they Blackout that in every budget speeches you can see the parliament you go to the hands up the Tamil National part some Tamil National Alliance Members were fingering these issues and comment is completely Blackout that there is no problem and this country like it's it is it is very and all the six budgets Gradually increase after the war gradually increase the allocation for defense Big fortified and big forts like a huge large amount of amount and sizes of Military complexes in the northern northern eastern provinces So anyway, so this is kind of a situation. It's there. It is not the the there is no such climate to return to arms but People are still confident and they are This Sri Lankan Tamil Tamils from 1930s when they introduced the voting system in Sri Lanka that Universal franchise They vote oh boycott for their rights never for rice even after the war when they were behind the Bop wires and in the what you call number of refugee camps the government Benton tried to give a lot of things and get the votes, but they the boards were just opposite Against the government further and further Why I'm saying is from the late colonial era to now the Tamils are Absolutely, even when they die when they killed when they lost They vote for their rights This is the strength because they believe their course is just they are for just So this is the strength of even the number is less even the upward and they are So this is the strength still that is what protecting them at least after this moment May I say something about this morality issue? It's very relevant question in conflict resolution now Most important thing in the conflict resolution is pragmatism Not the morality now if you take three issues from civil war in America Punjab massacre or shin fence decision to go into Jerry Adams decision to go into a peace deal or Nelson Mandela's internal argument Whether when they were talking about power sharing with whites forgetting about atrocities all have shown Pragmatism and visionary leadership What is lacking in Sri Lanka is that pragmatic approach now what is Now if you look at the way now, this is I know that when I say this I Don't give space for the sufferings of the innocent people, but If you look at the way the solutions were made the leaders Have shown they want to keep the history behind when they want to do that I mean the famous discussion between Cyril Rampus and Nelson Mandela when the ANC leadership was with blaggarding Mandela why are you talking and why are you Saying to forget what whites have done for us So read the statement then look at what Jerry Adams did So morality is there. There's no argument. That's I as a individual I'm saying that you have to give a Space for morality, but on the other hand in politics I don't see that in from from this this this is a democratic country the way the British government dealt with the Northern Ireland issue is in the history, right? So therefore the morality is one thing and Pragmatism is one thing what what we see in Sri Lankan issue is that we have not seen Two pragmatic guys at least we have still we are searching for you We are we are searching we want one from Tamil community and one from singhala or the state Two guys who can be pragmatic Not cry babies Right, so this is one thing on the on the grassroot thing I I agree with this madam that In this kind of very escalated long period escalated conflicts I mean Sri Lanka the history shows how it step by step escalated. So you have to de-escalate So how to de-escalate this de-escalation happens step by step But no no scientific approach happened in Sri Lanka in that respect So that is the problem Grassroot level issue Yes Now Sri Lanka my my my if you look at the Sri Lankan context We don't have a civil society. Sorry to say Right, we don't have citizens in Sri Lanka. We have voters All professionals all civil society will be looking through the glasses of their parties So therefore, there is no abstract or middle approach for that So they have a very difficult to find a middle ground in Sri Lanka. So that creates a intermediary politics so everybody is trying to push you against the wall and Get the advantage. This was not a common. I mean uncommon thing if you look at the Belfast politics in 80s That was there So so in in ethnically tense Polities, this is a very very natural thing So therefore So once again one ultimately come to the victim perpetrator Reconciliation my position is not that we cannot reconcile between victims and the perpetrator, but still it is not mature The so the the situation is not matured to strike such a deal But we should not Give up the such effort. We have to go for that. But in one day one day means not after another 20 years time, but within very reasonable time frame We have to do that. But you have to start from Like something like joint narration of the history There are there are his there are techniques Instead of rushing for that so as She said that step-by-step approach has to be applied I think There are fells question, which is the theme of this yeah, this event, which is inside of I mean now Middle-level leaders, right? I think it would be useful to say something On those lines if you have a question, please put your hand up. I will Pick you up That's Phil's question about our role was my role and as a middle-level leader between the National efforts and the grassroot level efforts It is in the Direct connotation of reconciliation process my experience is more with period of Chandrika Bandarnaka's political package Along with the political package she started Some kind of movement for reconciliation named in Sudan element single and white lotus in English The white lotus movement is basically to move village to village and Make awareness programs through speeches through Different kind of arts traumas, etc To make the singular population to accept the federal system or it's kind of a power sharing system Along with it, they also introduced a project called book and brick that is the Jaffna public library was burnt earlier by the police and army Under the orders of the ministers so therefore in order to make the singular people feel that it is it is it is a mistake done or in a kind of a Regret to say that every family supposed to give one brick and one book to Reconstruct that library that it is a kind of a reconciliation idea There are a large number of intellectuals professors media men and all we were working together To Enhance the political package to be a reality But I think seven two years or so then The entire climate changed and hardliners took up a hand and Chandrika Bandarnaka declared for war for peace then the war escalated To the level so our efforts in the efforts gone waste So Later after the Chandrika Bandaraka ten or is over when she became retired from the presidency In an interview she said I was Successfully keep the international community support with me by Keep the political package alive So it seems that she was not genuine to resolve the problem through the political package rather to keep that as a Charlotte said that Pandora sort of show to the international community see at I am in the process I'm in the exercise of doing it. So later only we realized that it is also a kind of a Politics of political resolution This is a very bad experience that Previously After the Indolanga agreement the 13th amendment was introduced and that was in a among the Tamils It is a two sides a section is not accepted a section plan to go along with in support of India To show to India that Sri Lankan government will not deliver the goods in real sense Therefore we accepted and we were working for one and a half years And there are a lot of Southern Political leaders also came and they appreciated our work and this and that and they said that we will be the pioneer too Within one day of years we established Council and the circuitry etc So at that time until such time the southern provincial council were unable to do anything But within one day of years it is completely the president Premadasa Completely gone against that he was against a political Against a provincial council system. So and really the LTT also did not want for a poll that system because that system as I already explained that is it is a fundamental Flows it had and we had in within this one of years we had The chief former chief minister visited 20 times to meet the president to small small things and the time The provincial council came out with the alternative set of trap in place of that in amendment In order to make it that also we made and we send it to the government. We send it to the diplomats What I'm saying is this is also our diehard work for reconciliation and To for a peaceful resettlement. I mean this resolution of the conflict In these two cases I was one of the bulk in working a lot of involvement a lot of important works Oh Accomplishing important tasks also After Chandrika's regime, then it is a Roger boxer regime, you know that Roger boxer regime period what has happened and the present regime So now there is as he said now it is too early to talk about reconciliation So therefore we are waiting for Climate Yeah, I mean throughout the history. I played a role of interlocutor I'm a friend of Tamils as well as I'm a critic of Tamil Politics I'm I'm working with the state as well as I'm working with the civil society so for last three decades what we tried is to see a Durable and stable solution for this Process in that regard we started numerous initiatives to bridge the gap In the last now My effort would be now we have seen Two of orthodox characters have met each other that is Mr. Prabhakaran and Mr. Mahendra's boxer So they fought each other and destroyed themselves now our quest is to find Visionary to leaders from both sides who can come into a Deal or understanding to resolve this problem. I think it is possible and it is in near future. We may be able to do that but The onus right now is within the Tamil community to find a visionary leader quickly and From Singular Society also we are also trying to find that visionary leader. So Up to then We have not stopped working on this I involved with various initiative likes One text initiative where we bring all the political parties second level second tier or the leaders or closer people to the leaders to one text and Every month and various other times we we try to develop consensual policies and Pass now One instance where we we develop when this even Mahindra Ajapaksa's time When the national anthem issue came we develop the Certain policy how to deal with national anthem and also we produce a national anthem a bilingual national anthem and Passed it to the government then government for the hard-liners So likewise, there are a lot of things the middle Leaders can do based on understanding and friendship So I'm privileged that I have that understanding and privileged with various political groups and I will go on with this path which I have started as a student so At one more thing that I didn't Tell that that is one text initiative is a forum for functioning almost a decade in Colombo It's kind of a multi-party forum Bring all the representative from all the parties take up main issues and discuss in order to reduce the gap between the leaders then once it is the sharing of opinions and discussing the opinions and to reduce so that the conflict on important issues may be Reduced as much as possible It is my shrill and last two more than two years. I am also part of it And in especially in Jaffna district I support and I I do as much as possible my cooperation to the functions of the one text initiative so far the one text initiative projects are with Top-level and middle-level leaders and not reach to the grassroots so far, but I do not know that They may have plan actually now it is They just go down to the middle-level leaders and the regional level kind of leaders So far not going to the most level it is it is most level of the grassroot level it Would have been a sort of a big project and plan They may have plan, but in that case we will work together. We are working together We will work together even though we now we had number of issues we differed and number of issues we had the same similar opinion This is not sort of personal. It's when it comes to collective. It is the fact. It is the issue. It is the conflict so any Local mechanism effectively developed. It is we wish We'll cooperate Guess have been with us in 9 o'clock this morning 8 30 this morning. So I think it's a very long day The next two events in this series in October and November we've got public dialogues on South Africa and Northern Ireland So we'll ensure that you all know about those Thank you to all of you for coming out this evening Thanks to the AB guys and the Fedsa Institute and the politics so as department for helping us put this Most importantly, thank you so much to our panellists to super for chairing the dialogue to Shira Part and coming to London at a particularly politically volatile time Sri Lanka, we know it wasn't easy to prize you away from all the machinations taking place back in the Colombo But we really value you being here for the whole research project and taking part in a really open and honest and frank Conversation with each other this evening. So please I just ask you all to express your thanks to the panellists