 Okay ladies and gentlemen, we're going to start with the next presentation and it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you Margaret Jordan. Now Margaret is an accredited genealogist and has a background in science and mathematics and having told me in a second that I'm at school in County Cork. She is now a professional genealogist. Part of her time she actually works on the Ireland Y DNA project. Now I've just heard from Jean-Pierreau about some of the DNA structure of the Irish population. And that of course is an academic study and Margaret actually is running the Y DNA project which has over 6,000 members in the project. So here to tell us about the Y DNA project and what it actually tells us is Margaret Jordan, please give her a warm welcome. It's a pleasure to speak to you today about the Ireland Y DNA project. Now the Ireland Y DNA project was set up in 2006 because at that time there were very few Irish surname projects at all. And there was also the genographic project where people could do a 12 marker DNA test but there was nowhere for those results to go for the Irish males. So there was a double reason there for setting up the Ireland Y DNA project. Now just going back to that timeframe, Family 3 DNA was the company chosen for the project. And it started off very small as you can imagine and over time it has grown. But this is just an example here of a certificate that the genographic project produced back in 2005. You can see maybe that they only tested 12 markers and these 12 markers or 12 YSTRs were enough to predict your Y half the group. And the Y half the group that's predicted is R1B which is defined by the SNP M343. So I'll be talking about half the groups and I'll be talking about SNPs. To some extent I'll be talking about markers or YSTRs. Now back in the early days, in the early 2000s to maybe 2010, all we've talked about really were YSTRs and broad based half the groups. But in more recent years we've had a huge development in the SNP area. So we're transitioning if you like from the YSTRs to the SNPs. But both are used extensively and used together to complement each other. And I'll be showing you a little bit about how that happens as well. Now it was an exciting time actually in the mid to late 2000s. Because Trinity College were producing a lot of research papers and we amateurs, volunteers were just swallowing this stuff. It was fantastic, I mean we had nothing else to go on for Irish Y DNA. But Trinity College were feeding us all these papers so there were major discussions about the results and so on. So it was quite an exciting time when Trinity were doing all that research. And all those papers are available free online now. But at the time I think some of them might have been behind a paywall and we were all scampering to try and get hold of them. Now as I said, back then a 12 marker prediction whether it was from Family 3DNA or the General Graphic Project was enough to give you a wide half the group prediction. And it became quite clear early on that most men in Ireland were in the R1B half the group. We do have a few in the R1A. We do have some in I1 and I2 and very small amounts possibly other half the groups. But as I said it became very clear early on that we were focusing more on this little area here. But that R1B is a very ancient snip and you can see here on the chart that quite a lot of Europe is defined by R1B and the darker the colour being higher the percentage of the men in that area who have R1B. Now it goes up to over 80% in Ireland and also on the western fringe of Europe. So it's very common in this part of Europe. Now in the project this is reflected over the years we've consistently had about 80% or 81% R1B in the project. We've had a smaller percentage of I1, 6% approximately and I2, 7% and then smaller percentages again of the other half the groups that occur in the project. For example R1A is 2% and G is 1%, E2% and J1%. Now I won't be talking about the smaller percentages over here in the top. I'll be focusing mostly on R1B with some references to I1 and I2 as they're the next biggest half the groups in the project. Now Eupedia is a great resource which I've used an awful lot I must say especially in preparation for this talk because it has an analysis of all the major why half the groups and mitochondria DNA half the groups and it throws in information about the migration and the history of the weaker and so on so if you're interested in following up on the origins and migrations of the half the groups I would suggest Eupedia.com. Now here Eupedia shows Ireland and in fact they got their data from our project so it should correspond with the data I've given you. But if you look at the comparisons there the highest areas of R1B apart from Ireland would be Normandy and Wales and Scotland. The western fringes of Europe have the highest proportion of R1B. Now you can do the same for the other half the groups. In my talk I combined I2A and I2B into just I2A because the terminology for I2 has changed several times over the years so to keep it simple I'm not treating I2A and I2B separately. So that's just something you can look up there on Eupedia as well to compare the different half the groups from the different countries. So we started off with R1B which is here and now I'm not very good at archaeology and paleolithic and mesolithic and neolithic are terms that don't come naturally to me except to say that paleolithic is very old you know and mesolithic is more recent but you can see how far back you have to go for the R1B or the M343 SNP so that really isn't helping us very much with our YDNA in terms of telling people that OMR won't be you know we've done a lot further than that nowadays but it took us several years to come further on and we came further on first of all by talking about M269 and M269 could be I don't know could be 10,000 years old we don't have precise dates for these SNPs which is something we're all working towards but M269 is the prediction that family 3DNA tends to give an awful lot of people so if you do a YDNA test and you get a prediction of M269 that's not telling you an awful lot back in the early 2000s I would have said yes it was telling us as much as we could find out but now it's really just the tip of the iceberg it's you know you would need more information and just on that diagram I've you know I've left out a lot of steps here I couldn't put them all in but by the time you get down here it splits up into U106 and we have some U106 in the project not very much it's less than 4% I won't be dealing with that today I could have but I think that you know I had to focus my energies on certain aspects and I figured that this side would be the one that would be most relevant to most people the P312, the Proto Italo Kelto Germanic hasn't yet got to Ireland really we're still way out there in the middle Bronze Age perhaps you know it's 20 ancient now the emphasis as I said was on the YSTRs in the 2000s and we went from 12 from the General Graphic Project and Family Treaty really always did 37 markers but then later on 67 markers became available only in 2011 actually did 111 YSTRs on markers become available so we've been going up the scale all the time trying to crunch the numbers with these YSTRs now they can't do it all by themselves but I personally believe in testing 67 YSTRs some people say 37 is enough and you go straight to snips but from my experience not everybody is going to do a lot of snip testing you know from the 8000 we have the project we have about 3000 men who are RM269 and they're sitting there with no further snip testing so that's the reality so getting people to do 67 markers at least with those you can start to try and predict what snips they would be positive on coming to that a bit more later on but with 67 markers there are certain values on some of those markers which can point you in the right direction it can tell you for sure you'll be positive on a particular snip well it almost can in some cases but in a lot of cases it will certainly give you enough information maybe to jump forward to doing not maybe the next snip that Family Treaty and I recommend but a couple of jumps forward and you learn a lot more about your YHAPLO group the position of your YDNA on the YHAPLO group so snips of course are opening new ways of grouping people and refining positions on the YHAPLO tree and I think other people have used the term snip tsunami and this is very true about years ago we were getting new snips all the time and it wasn't possible for us to figure out how they all fitted in so we had to do some work and do a lot of testing of people to see who was positive on them and who was negative so that they could be added to the YHAPLO tree but really since the big Y has come along I think Family Treaty and I has taken over a lot of that heavy lifting so we don't have to do as much work as before but we weren't trying to get different people to do testing to try and figure out who was positive and who was negative so a lot of that has been done by Family Treaty and I know so of course with all the changes that have been going on it was quite simple in the beginning it was just anybody, any male, not to be male who had Irish ancestry on his male line could join the project but now because we have so many different kinds of tests for example if you did an autosomal DNA test with 23andMe and you've been given a YHAPLO group prediction that is not enough to entitle you to join the Ireland's YDNA project because you can't transfer that YDNA result you can transfer the latest form of the generographic project results now the latest type of generographic results are all SNF results Geno 2.0 is what it's called some of you might have done that have you done the Geno 2.0 test? Just a few, do you know about it? Yeah? Okay, so the Geno 2.0 is really based on anthropology but I suppose with all the new SNPs that have been found over the years they are providing results for SNPs which are closer to the modern timeframe but it is a research project and it's more geared for the scientific community to understand the migration of people you know the YDNA out of Africa spread across the world and in different populations you have different types of YDNA so that's really what that study is about but because family tree DNA was the lab it isn't anymore but it was the lab for the generographic project you could transfer for free your generographic when you still can transfer your generographic 2.0 results to family tree DNA and if you have an Irish main line please transfer them to the Ireland YDNA project you know please make sure you join that project now we also encourage men of course to join their surname project that is critical because the surname administrators, surname project administrators are the most familiar with your particular surname now if there isn't a surname project for your surname of course the next step is to join the Ireland YDNA project but the surname projects are the best because they can look at your results within a small context we are a huge project we can't really look at everybody's individual result and compare them with other people with the same surname we can't do that what we do is we tend to group people by SNPs so it's not by surname it's broad groups based on SNPs so I think I've gone over this the prerequisites for joining the project are that you have to have a YDNA test you have to be male it has to be a test that's transferable to family tree DNA now if you don't have knowledge of your paternal line that doesn't restrict you from joining if you have a close match at 67 markers with other men in the project or other men with Irish surnames you are entitled to join because we want to try and help you that's our project we deal with individuals we may be a huge project but our main focus is the individual and their needs if you are looking for a biological male line we would be delighted to have you in the project so that you can explore whether it is a male Irish line or not and so on but if you if you just vaguely think you might have an Irish line you have to know something about it you have to have documented evidence within say the last 500 years there's no point saying a thousand years ago my ancestors might have been in Ireland we need something more we're focused on a genealogical time frame so that would be about 500 years and also there's no point telling me that you did an ancestry autosomal DNA test and you're told you're 60% Irish not good enough we need it to be on the Y line even if it's only 1% or less we need it to be on the Y line so just keep that in mind now as I said we focus on individuals we want to emphasise that we talk to people we have an activity feed you might be familiar with that like a Facebook sort of messaging system on a lot of the projects and we are very active on that and people ask questions we administrators try to answer them but other members try to answer them too and members talk to each other and they find out more I mean people would say I haven't a clue I got my results what do I know we can look at their results and we can advise them and then other people can learn from that advice as well and we do deal with people by email of course as well but more I find that people are using the activity feed they feel happier dealing with it there in that context but anyway we relate very closely to why happenable projects surname projects and why DNA research and regional why geographic projects and I just want to refer to these in turn I've mentioned the Irish surname projects that's fairly obvious I think and the why happenable projects are becoming more important as people do more and more SNP testing it's becoming so specific that there are projects for particular SNPs and if you are a person with that particular SNP you go for that project as well you can join as many projects as you like but the main types of project would be the surname projects the why happenable projects and the geographic projects which is what we are now the why DNA research there I put that in because it's the community it's the genetic genealogy enthusiasts it's the people who do the research like the previous speaker and the speaker coming next I'm sort of in the middle the amateur in the middle but it's everybody contributing I mean there are a lot of people involved like Mike Walsh, Alex Williamson Nigel McCartney you've heard some of these names mentioned already but they're all working in the background and we all benefit from their efforts because they're all helping us to understand what's going on with the SNPs it's particularly with the SNPs nowadays this is just about our project it started off in 2006 and we're nearly at 8,000 members it sounds like a lot of people but the majority would not be from Ireland not living in Ireland and I think I would like to put out a call here for Irish men to do a why DNA test if you haven't done it already we really do need your participation in the project because we have lots of Americans we have Australians, we have Canadians we have some Irish men I can't give you an exact figure because I would have to go to everybody's account and with 8,000 people I couldn't possibly but from my dealing with people I know that the majority come from outside of Ireland and they would love to reconnect with their Irish male line in Ireland and it would be fantastic so to have more Irish males who are living in Ireland and know where their ancestors came from joining the project and joining their surrounding projects now as I said we have nearly 8,000 members and most of those live outside the country and we have about 3,000 people who are stuck on this RN 269 who haven't done any more slip testing we also have some people who have only done 12 markers about 766 I think these must be from that original general graphic project they transferred from the first general graphic project and didn't go any further and that's so long ago now they probably lost interest and they're not going to do any more but if any of you are one of these people here please do more testing we have a few here in 25 and we have 1,929 and 37 markers that I would prefer to see more in the 67 marker bracket but we have quite a few and at 111 we have 2,305 and the good news here is that we have over 1,000 people who have done the big why I was actually surprised when I saw that figure myself because I didn't expect it but that's good that shows we're going somewhere and as I said there is some chance for interest from the genome 2.0 but they could actually be included over there as well because when people transfer their genome 2.0 results it's all SNP results it doesn't allow you to compare your result directly the way the markers do so you're sitting there in the project and we can't do anything with your result so if you've transferred a genome 2.0 result please do SNP to sorry do 37 or 67 markers so that you can compare your results with other men now I mentioned earlier that in the 2000s we were excited at the papers coming from Trinity but we also got very excited in 2010 when the first Irish genome was sequenced I must always remember that day when I discovered it I had just got off the ferry from Cork to Swansea and I was in the local McDonald's restaurant you know I was eagerly checking my email and I got the news everybody was chatting about this and I was feeling oh my god one day I go away you know everybody is talking about this but anyway it was an exciting time again we've had several exciting moments so this is one of them when we got the Irish genome sequenced and now it turned out to be L21 which is a SNP further down than the SNPs I've shown you so far I've shown you the M343 down to M269 and I showed you it goes down to P312 and you go down further again and I'll be showing you diagrams with that to the L21 now L21 was quite well established at that point so it wasn't that the SNP was new but it was exciting that an Irish genome had been sequenced and it was L21 now I find the comment here I quoted it from the paper none of the five markers now they mean SNPs here none of the five SNPs defining known subgroups of R1B S145 that's a different name for L21 could be found in our individual indicated that it potentially belongs to and as yet undefined branch of L21 now they're saying there were five branches of L21 in 2010 I don't know if anybody could name those five branches I could name two straight away M222 had already been discovered and L21 also L159.2 in fact was the third and I think L193 and L19 sorry start again L195 there the five I read the paper afterwards again to find those SNPs so that was before the SNPs tsunami so the SNPs tsunami hasn't been on another go in terms of all these branches of the white half-breed tree being discovered now just to give you some information on L21 again you can see the same pattern here the darker areas are to the west very much focused on Ireland and the western coast of Britain and France Normandy there again and the figure here says that the darkest areas have over 60% L21 now we find that is mirrored in the Ireland Widenay project so we're getting closer and closer to splitting this white half-breed tree into more interesting branches that eventually hopefully will come down to surname lines we're getting closer now this is the kind of follow-up diagram to the original diagram I was showing you you know we had the M343 M269 P312 and down here to L21 so our project focused quite a lot on L21 because the majority of members belonged to that branch of the white half-breed tree and since then another SNP below that called DF13 was found and our new focus is on branches below DF13 because as I quote here from I think it was white full which describes almost everything below L21 according to white brows now DF63 over there on the right does occur to a very very very small extent in the project but it's mostly MacFarlane in Scottish surnames and our focus is definitely on DF13 so another diagram here which is a kind of schematic diagram I don't claim to include all the SNPs on this part of the white half-breed tree but I'm including the main ones and the branches that I want to focus on for example here DF21 I've given numbers here rather than percentages they may look like very small numbers to you but they can compare across like in DF13 we have two about it's changing all the time because it's a dynamic project 213 are DF21 164 are FGC11134 and we have 20 who are FGC5494 and now I didn't put in a number here because this is like an umbrella for the branches down here this was only found recently to cover all of these other branches so we have in the project we have nine people in this group and we have 253 in the Z253 group and 111 in the Z255 group and over here on to this newly discovered umbrella SNP if you like it covers all of these which originally were sort of directly connected under DF13 until this SNP was found and we have 31 DF41 1135 DF49 and the reason for that is because underneath it you have the M222 SNP which most people would be familiar with the North West Ireland SNP now M123.5 surprisingly we have 36 and Z251.31 and so on over and on and so just from the project we have countered the number of people in each of these subgroups in the project I emphasise it's only what we have in the project because there's a DF21 project a Y half global project which would be entirely DF21 people and it would be able to break up DF21 into all the subbranches and so on as far as they can possibly go now in blue I've listed the branches for which we have subgroups in the project and in red I have highlighted the ones I'm going to talk about I can't really talk about them all but the biggest ones are perhaps the ones with some interesting things to say so DF49 I'll talk a bit more about and Z253 and FGC11134 and this one here DF21 so I'll just give you a little bit extra on those it won't be comprehensive but it'll just be delving a little bit deeper into them now as I mentioned DF49 is the largest part of the Z39589 and why is that? because M222 is the snip which is down below DF49 and M222 was a snip that was known about back in 2006 so it's been very heavily researched and it's very common in the area on the map now you might extend that area in Ireland a little bit that was an older map but with M222 I've said it's easy to predict it based on the markers or the YSTRs it has distinctive values on certain markers which enable people to say straight away oh yes you will be M222 if you test but the problem with the people who are M222 is that even if they go up to 111 markers they will be matching lots and lots of different surnames it doesn't help to distinguish between one surname and another in a lot of cases it's just there are so many people with the same kind of results and that can be the problem with markers but big Y and Y Hacker Group projects are working on this and they have gone much further than M222 at this stage and here's my diagram for that I've said, we're talking about DF49 and you come down to M222 and then that breaks up into other branches and this branch here is the most common one in the Ireland YTNA project we have 87 people or S658 and then you come down here to DF105 we didn't sort out any groups here we went down to this level and you can see here even at this level we're able to subdivide and this is only the tip of the iceberg because we're a broad group we can't really deal with every individual SNP but I decided I would just examine one of them I would look at S588 and before I do that though I should mention that we are getting down to the genealogical timeframe and a man called Ian McDonald of Stratatide University is one of the people that has been trying to estimate ages of SNPs and in his analysis he has M222 with the best estimate of 310 BC for the origin of it and a 95% confidence level between 871 BC and 114 AD now we're not saying these are absolutely correct they may be proved to be wrong but it's like a working model at the moment and then you come all the way down here through these SNPs down to DF105 and you find that we're down to 214 AD approximately but that's good news because we're getting closer and closer to be able to use these SNP results in looking at surnames now again another diagram you'd be sick of my charts this is DF105 and I said I was going to look at S588 where we have 77 members and I just added in some of the age estimates by Ian McDonald and here it's approximately 483 AD I emphasised approximately then you come down through several more steps and you get down to 181742 which is approximately 899 AD so we're nearly approaching 1000 AD when many surnames started now from personal communication with Mike McNally who's the administrator of the Gormley project he was able to tell me that from big wide he is working on the connection between say Graham and McNally for example and he has done a lot of work by reading the manuscripts and looking at the ancient genealogies I'm certainly leaving that to him and other people but I'll just say here that we're getting down to the level from big wide and SNP testing that you can start to use the results to get down to the surname level and see how those surnames are or are not connected and there would be a lot of work with people in the future studying the annals and trying to work out if the annals are correct or do they fit what we're finding out from the DNA that was my example for DF 49 a little bit of a run through because I thought that was an important one to do now the next one I chose is the Z253 and you can see it's 68% of the umbrella SNP there Z said 1-0 and why is that? You might remember that I said that L226 was one of the first SNPs that we discovered it was one of those 5 branches that they knew about when they sequenced the Irish genome in 2010 so a lot of research has been going on on L226 you can see here that we have 55 people who are at L226 some of those have gone further and they are positive for the next SNP and then down here you have another SNP so L226 has been very heavily researched and some of the others not so well researched but the point I want to make there is that we are moving forward all the time with SNPs and getting closer and closer to the modern day now the L226 SNP I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with especially O'Brien project there I'm treading carefully here if I'm wrong correctly L226 was discovered in 2009 from the largest part of the project for that it's easy to identify from markers so that's handy as well so if you have done your 67 markers the project administrator of the O'Brien project will be able to tell you yes you are going to be at L226 and it seems to be one of those SNPs that originated in Ireland I haven't discovered too many of them now may not have originated here but it's definitely very prevalent in those areas so I leave that answer to the O'Brien project there my other focus is on the DF21 now we have I've shown you here a diagram of different branches again the blue are the ones we have groups far in the Ireland YDNA project but again there will be separate why half the group projects for many of these for example DF25 you know is a very old SNP and there will be a lot of sub branches here now I'm not talking about that one I think the two I'm talking about here are going to be Z16 281 and Z300 because you can actually attach those to the ancient genealogies but before I do that sorry I should mention another exciting moment is when we got the ancient DNA results from Dan Bradley and his Trinity group when he in 2016 published the paper that found that of the three men who had YDNA analysis done from the Rathlin Island burial site, the Bronze Age burial site because we're dealing with ancient remains it wouldn't be possible to analyze the YDNA fully but they found that one man was L21 one you could go further you could say it was DF13 and the third man was DF21 which is great of course you'd love to know which branch of L21 he was but because the DNA wasn't able to tell us that we don't know now I've read somewhere in the analysis of M222 they're still waiting for their first ancient DNA man with M222 even though there's been so much research done on M222 they still haven't got any ancient DNA relating to that sniff anyway the two branches I wanted to talk about briefly are the Kingdom of our Gala it's the three colors I don't know if anybody is familiar with the three colors I'm not familiar with it myself but apparently they have a snip Z300 which seems to cover men who come from the three colors area or plan I'm not sure what term to give it but again there are markers which are pretty good at defining this group one of them is an interesting Dys425 a null marker now a null marker means they couldn't read it but you will find that the men in this group have a 0 for Dys425 that's unusual so it's another indicator of Z300 as long as you have the other markers as well so you can use your markers this is my point don't throw those markers out they are still very valuable for identifying snips that you could be positive for so that's the three colors from that particular snip the other one is the Eli Carle group a fourth century plan and again I went to the project there are projects for everything though so the project listed the surnames there and the snip is the Z16281 snip and others below I mean there's constant research going on on this of course and the particular markers there Dys390 equal to 25 and Dys492 equal to 11 so they use the markers as well to predict whether you'd be positive for the Z16281 snip now the other example I have is under the FGC11134 and it's an important branch down here CTS0466 is an important branch in the south of Ireland it's been researched very heavily by you know plans like McCarthy O'Malley Heath they're all the southern South Irish was the name we called them before we had the snip so CTS0466 branches out again and we have groups with say three men who were A541 and so on across there and basically we stopped here L270 seems to refer to a Sullivan very consistently and now I haven't looked into this myself but Nitro McCarthy who doesn't all work in this area gave me this chart where he has gone forward and assigned these branches to the different surnames based on his own research so you can see we're getting more and more down to the level of surnames and maybe family lines in the future again he's relating also Nigel is working on relating those surnames to the ancient genealogies for the own up to plan and I certainly haven't delved into that but there will be a lot of information coming out on that fairly shortly because they have done the analysis now I've gone as come to the end of the year 13 I have a bit more afterwards but I want to just kind of summarize that part like big why analysis is helping us to show surname affiliations and separate them from others using snips but big why is also showing branches within groups of men sharing the same surname and citizen scientists academics and individuals are contributing an awful lot so it's a huge network of people putting in a group effort and as I said there are projects for everything you'll find monster projects you'll find a Galway project you'll find a Breathley project there will be geographical projects but you will find why have to move projects which relate perhaps to more one part of the country than another so go looking for projects find what projects will suit your needs the best don't just stick with your certainly a project join the why have to move project a why do you wrap up a project that's catering for your particular branch of the why have to move now as I said there's just a small part to this and it's dealing with I1 and I2 I1 and I2 are found in the project in small numbers 6 and 7% and just to have a look at I1 first in general in Europe I1 is basically associated with Scandinavia and the Germanic countries but in Ireland we're supposed to have 10% I1 now again probably associated with the Vikings I can't actually tell you whether we have that or not from the Ireland why DNA project we have people who are I1 alright and they have the M253 snip which is defining I1 but a huge number of them have not done any more snip testing they were predicted by family 3DNA to be M253 and they sat there so I don't know a few have gone on and you can see that some of them 23 are L22 and 39 Z58 and a small number Z63 well this would be the Nordic branch these would be more the Germanic branches but I can't really tell you any more than that because we don't have the data I would defer very strongly to the I1 Habra Group projects and the other Habra Group projects which deal with the specific branches so if you're I1 go looking for those particular Habra Groups to help you learn more so I2 breaks up here in the project to I2 A1 and I2 A2 and I'll show you max first their frequency in Europe this is I2 A1 and the darker colours show you the highest concentrations but you see here in Ireland we have I think it's a 5-10% show on this map this is from Epedia and we can't really get this kind of data from the project because we don't have data from say the west of Ireland we don't have enough men we need a project there in Mayo that will analyse the data for Mayo and tell us what is going on there so this is why geographic projects or even the why happy group project is useful to tell us what's going on now the other branch of I2 in Ireland is the I2 A2 and here you see a nice dark patch meaning there's over 10% here in the north which seems to you know be paralleled in Scotland now again in the Ireland YGNA project we can look at the data we have for what it's worth we have an awful lot of people 125 who were predicted to be P37 which is I2 A1 we have 204 people who are predicted to be N223 and so on but this is the faculty 3DNA prediction I think they would not have gone on to do any more SNP testing but some people have some people have gone on and gone down further and in fact N161 is supposed to be the SNP that occurs in the west of Ireland according to Eupelia because I don't have the data but it would be nice to have the data so any men from Mayo please do testing I believe I think Gerard who told me today that Enda Kenney our previous T-Shop was what did you say it was NP37 I2A1 but a genographic tests 100 people in Mayo and they publish the paper on it okay sorry so you know it's a Mayo paper anyway so the Mayo results give us a possibility there of I2A1 in present there now as I said I2A2 is the other one which again according to Eupelia is more the northeast of Ireland and it would be nice to see a follow-up John on that to see if that is the case and again you can go down these are not the last branches these can all be broken up into smaller branches and if we are a broad project we can't do it but there is an I2 project which will do that and other projects as well so there's plenty out there you know plenty of projects to join depending on your particular YDNA so we can't find an ancestors location so we are an umbrella group we are a catch-all group we take anybody any male who's got Irish YDNA regardless of surname we're not really worried about what your surname is because surnames change people when they emigrate their surnames become changed you have the instance where your surname changes so we're not worried about surname it's just if you have an Irish male line or if you match Irish males closely at 67 markers that's fine and we look beyond surnames and accept all surnames and why have the groups personally I know other people don't advise I would advise to do 67 or even 111 markers join relevant projects do SNP PACs or the big Y now I haven't really mentioned how you do the SNPs if you weren't doing the big Y you can do individual SNPs they can be pricey because you're paying $39 each time but if you pick a relevant SNP PAC and project administrators will always help you select the right SNP PAC the SNP PAC includes what could be $40 I'm not sure but it has a huge number of SNPs and you'll be positive for some and negative for others but the general price for those is either $99 or $119 so you can see it's value for money because you then find out a lot more by paying that amount of money rather than spending $39 several times over so I think that's it very much Margaret questions for Margaret we have one here from John and Brian make your correction I think I mentioned it's very difficult we have addresses for all the members but even for me to go through all those addresses and find out which ones are in the US which ones are in Ireland which ones are in Australia it's too much like hard work even if you have their address I don't know if it's in Ireland or not some people give their earliest ancestor which does tell you where their earliest ancestor was born that's about as much as we could do really but it would be I'd love to have all those numbers how much interface do you have with the various Hapla Group projects and administrators well not a huge amount with the administrators but I would have more contact with the members of my project and I would then look at the results charts in the why Hapla Group projects and use their work and advise my member who's asking a question on that because I mean I have to draw from everywhere to give advice it's not all in our project you have to reach the why Hapla Groups like why full and ISOG and family tree DNAs why tree I should say and the why Hapla Groups are a fantastic resource and the main thing is they publish their results online I must say I'm throwing something here I hate when people hit their results private because you cannot share the valuable information then and if some projects are not allowing us to see any of their results we can't learn from that and share it with other people so I think sharing your results is very important absolutely one of the great things about the why DNA project is the fact that you're actually getting an overview of the entirety of Ireland whereas of course the Hapla Group project administrators are probably just looking at one particular branch of descent but do you have a because of this overview do you feel you're actually getting a better idea of what makes the Irish Irish that's a good question no but I keep asking the same question I'm trying to find out which one is really Irish which one happened in Europe but I think the more work we do on it with the big why and getting down to the starting levels I think that will feed us that kind of information about what's Irish and what isn't Irish but it is a difficult question and the last question for me is do you get a feel for the various migrations that might have come into Ireland because we know that there's been obviously a Celtic wave or so-called Celtic wave coming into Ireland and then after that there might have been a Viking influence as well but there might also have been smaller influences like Huguenot, Palatine, Jewish do you get a feel for what kind of contribution these different migrations might have made to the overall why DNA picture it's very difficult actually as I said with the Viking I can't answer that because we don't have a database which is focused on Ireland and something which tells us these people came to Ireland in the Viking times because they have the Viking why DNA we have people in America, in Australia who think their ancestors came from Ireland and we need more Irish men I think is the bottom line do we need that? Get out there and get testing every day okay well we have to call it a day there unfortunately but Margaret thank you for a wonderful presentation