 We're at time, so let's go ahead and get started. Thank you all for coming today. This is landing among the stars, how community powers the adoption of open telemetry. I am absolutely thrilled to be here with some of my wonderful friends in the open telemetry community. And we're gonna talk about how we as a project have kind of tried to instill and develop a very communitarian nature to what we do in our day-to-day work inside of open telemetry and give you some takeaways and lessons that we think you should be able to bring back to your OSPO or your open source project. So four parts, this is really more of a discussion than a lecture. We're gonna talk about our backgrounds, how we got here. We're gonna tell you some stories about what we've done as part of open telemetry and how we have helped to build community there. Specifically, we're gonna focus on the open telemetry and user working group. And finally, we're gonna give you some takeaways about sort of the values that we think have gotten us to this point. Now, if you don't know what open telemetry is, which this is a LF event, not a CNCF event, open telemetry is a incubating project in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. It was formed in 2019. And the goal of open telemetry is to make, sorry, is to make observability a built-in feature of Cloud Native applications. And we do that by building APIs, data formats, tooling to allow application developers of Cloud Native apps and services to have high quality telemetry data like metrics, logs, traces, and other signals kind of being natively emitted from their applications. We merged from open tracing. I was an open tracing maintainer and we merged this project with open census, which was a Google open source project that had very similar aims. And we since starting that, we've actually now deprecated open tracing and open census very soon. So we have actually managed to create fewer standards in the open source world rather than more, which is probably, someone check the math on that, but that doesn't happen that often. And we're in production at hundreds of organizations worldwide. We have the second highest velocity in the CNCF behind Kubernetes in terms of contributors, pull requests, so on and so forth. So it's a really exciting project to be a part of and I want to now introduce you to my wonderful collaborators starting with Rhys Lee. Oh boy. Hi everyone, my name is Rhys. By day I am a developer relations engineer at New Relic. I also actively work as Austin mentioned in the open telemetry community, specifically on the end user working group. And how I got there is when I started at New Relic, I was in tech support. Shout out to tech support. And so I really enjoy like working directly with end users and helping them troubleshoot issues and enabling them on our product. And so when I joined the open telemetry team, I was kind of navigating the community and trying to find like where I could fit in and best contribute. And that's how I landed on the end user working group. And yeah, I'm looking forward to talking to you guys about, sorry to you all about our resource that we have implemented and yeah, how you can take those into your own open source communities. All right. And next will be Adriana Valela. Hey, I'm Adriana Valela. I am a senior developer advocate at LightStep by Day and Rock Climber by Night. I am also CNCF ambassador, newly minted. So shout out to the ambassadors. I got into open telemetry initially because I was managing an observability team on my previous role. So I was actually an end user. And when I started my current job, that's when I actually started making open source contributions. So contributing to open telemetry was my first open source contribution. And when I found out that there was the end user working group, it felt like a natural fit because I was doing the advocacy as part of my day job. And also I had been an end user. So it's been a wild ride so far. All right, next up we have Ryn Mancuso. Hi, I'm Ryn Mancuso. I am the senior developer community manager at Honeycomb. And I am also a CNCF ambassador and also one of the leaders of the end user working group. And finally myself, I'm Austin Parker. I am the head of developer relations at LightStep. I'm the open telemetry community manager slash maintainer. So I sit on our governance board basically and help make sure that open telemetry has a healthy, thriving end user community, both of contributors and of users. And you can find all of us on the internet at various places. I am on Blue Sky and no, I don't have codes. So let's start off. I actually came into open telemetry very early on. I was one of the initial, there was a series of meetings that took place in 2018 stemming from as all good open source projects start from Twitter beef between contributors to open tracing and open census. And this led to some discussions that happened with the basically principle maintainers of both projects. And we got together with some help from longtime Kubernetes community members from the CNCF and discussed like, hey, how are we gonna bring these, you know, hey, it's silly that there's these two things, let's bring them together. So formally I was a maintainer on open tracing kind of doing very similar community and website work, so it was very natural for me to slip over into this new role. And a lot of stuff has happened since then, right? We've gone from being kind of this small project that's a little bit of a obscure niche to being in a situation where very, very large companies can't stop talking about observability and how much they need it, how much they want it, how much they can sell it to you. And open telemetry is sitting at the center of that, where we've gone from being something that's unheard of to going to a KubeCon and seeing pretty much every monitoring, such as observability tooling vendor, proudly declaring how much they support open telemetry and a lot of them do both as a product but also through their contributions to the ecosystem. And this kind of very, I don't wanna say vendor driven because I don't think that's what it is, but it's certainly a project where we have a lot of vendor participation and a lot of these vendors are competitors to each other. And I think Ran has some really interesting thoughts on this about the incentive structure that led to the formation of things like the Andrews are working group. Yeah, so as many of you are probably familiar with, there has been a large conversation in open source over the past few years, led by folks like the TideLift team, the GitHub team around the challenges that individual maintainers in small projects face and specifically the way in which individual maintainers have been as we grow, as OSPOs require more things, as the open source grows up and is being used in the enterprise, individual maintainers are sometimes co-opted into people's supply chains, which they really have no incentive to do. They're not being paid to sort of fill out your supply chain form or meet your SOC2 standards or whatever you need. There's not an alignment of incentives. In corporate open source, the people who tend to naturally contribute are the ones where their company has aligned incentives. So in our case, that's the vendors. All of the vendors care very much what happens in open telemetry. For example, we're talking a lot about sampling right now and every vendor has to price by the amount of data somehow. They might price by ingest, they might price by retention, they might price by, because that's your variable cost. And so how and when we do sampling has everything to do with their pricing models and they are all like we'd like our perspective seen. The problem is the end users in this case who are implementing, who this might be part of their jobs, if you're maybe lucky and you're very big, you're an observability team, but you're mostly working on your stuff and not contributing to open telemetry and you don't really have a strong incentive to do so. And so we set out to make sure that we were including folks who didn't have an incentive to participate because we recognized that open telemetry was not going to grow without end users, without adopters. And we didn't have those folks as voices in the project to improve their experience. Yeah, I think like to your point, providing like a voice for them. My former manager at New Relic actually was one of the founders of the end user working group and together with some of the governance committee members as well as members from like Dynatrace and AWS, as we talked about like all of us work for dark competitors. I think it's so great that we get to kind of like focus on the end users and trying to create a space that's vendor neutral for them to come together and talk about like issues and challenges so that we can help increase adoption implementation of the project as well as continue to help improve the project by getting the feedback that they share back to you maintainers. That's something that we are still working on and I might be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves here, but yeah. That's fine. One thing that I would add too is that like as a former end user, it would have been really nice to have been aware of a group like this and now with us getting to interact with so many different end users and anytime we connect with new people if we find out that they work in open telemetry or are using open telemetry, we always direct them to this group because isn't it nice to be able to interact with other people who are going through the same thing who might be in a more advanced stage than you are and can provide some advice and you can like share some ideas and discuss some things. Yeah, another thing too is like one of the common things we've heard in some of the discussions that we've been a part of is how do we get buy-in from their leadership to adopt and implement open telemetry and I think we're kind of working and trying to put together something that could, that end users can ultimately bring back to their teams that would help put that conversation. This is another incentive path. The vendors have an incentive to support a standard because once all your competitors are, you don't wanna be the one who creates vendor lock-in but what is the incentive for end users to adopt is it only because they want to change vendors or they want to add a new observability tool now that there are many more niche tools coming up and not everybody is trying to be an APM and do everything to their stack or how do you convince your management that it's an improvement over continuing to instrument your code with the proprietary languages? Right, because like there are auto instrumentation options for several languages and I think the ultimate goal is to have auto instrumentation. Right, I mean to that point. But although instrumentation sucks and doesn't always make the decisions that you would want to make about what data you send in. Right, I mean to that point, one of the key realizations of the project was we, when we started this was the idea that instrumentation is required, right? If you, just to bring it down a level or two, if you have written a program, you have written a logging statement, right? You've used print line and that is telemetry, right? That is you giving the operator, that is you giving the developer some sort of idea about what the computer is doing. And as our systems grow more complex, we need more specialized forms of telemetry, right? We need telemetry that can be kind of represented in a time series and compressed and stored very cheaply like metrics. We need telemetry that's able to give us this kind of really end to end view of like what is happening in a distributed system like traces. And we also need highly structured logs and events that are easy to aggregate, easy to sample, easy to like ask questions about. And what we saw as a project and really as pioneers in observability was that this instrumentation is largely commodified already. If you looked at the, to use some vendor names, I don't work for these people, but if you looked at the Datadog APM libraries for instrumenting MySQL in JavaScript and you looked at the SignalFX APM libraries for instrumenting MySQL in JavaScript, they were 99.9% the same code because there's only really one way to do it. And so you had the situation where vendors are spending enormous sums of like time and engineering effort on writing the same thing over and over and over. And you get worse performance because it's not natively integrated. And you still have to like rip and replace it. If you wanted to switch from one to the other. So that realization, you know, not only led us to the, that is kind of why we have this big vendor support, right? Everyone sees that they see what's coming. Now, but as we brought up, a vendor, I don't want to say dominated, but certainly a project with significant sort of like vendor contributions is going to always have an opportunity. There's a chance that you kind of leave out the people that are actually using your software. And that is, we kind of talked about it already, but that's the motivations behind the end user working group. And just to summarize real quick, the primary goals of the end user working group are to foster a vendor agnostic community inside open telemetry to promote learning and adoption and to facilitate the collection and communication of end user feedback across the project. With that said, you know, let's go a little bit deeper into the end user working group. How have we, you know, what are the recent successes we've seen and talk about how we've kind of like implemented those? I think first, let's talk, Rin has some points about one of our in-person events called Hotel Unplugged. Right, so in the fall at KubeCon North America, we did an event called Hotel Unplugged that was a day-long event. And honestly, the impetus with this was kind of some pain. There was another observability event that, you know, they hadn't consulted open telemetry. There's lots of different groups within the project and it was not structured in a way that sort of welcomed contribution and built community. And so we set out to create our own event the day after that event and the day before KubeCon. Focused on building community among open telemetry end users and open telemetry vendors, maintainers, contributors. And it's pretty phenomenal for an event that we kicked off eight weeks before KubeCon. We got 100 attendees, filled the rooms that we had. Everyone had an afternoon of unconference discussion as well as like a morning of panels. It was huge, honestly. And that really was, that was only the second time the open telemetry community had gathered in person. And I think the first time that folks really fully leaned in to that after the pandemic. What else? Adriana, I think you were going to talk about the end user interviews, yeah? Yeah, yeah. So we've got these monthly end user interviews where we speak to someone who's actually using open telemetry in real life. And it's just a Q and A session where we find out about their architecture stack. What are some of the challenges that they're facing? How did they start using, how did they start thinking about observability? What led them to open telemetry? How are they promoting it within their organization? So these are the types of discussions that we have with them. And they're great because the more stories that we have out there to share how our users are doing this out in the wild, I think the more adoption we're going to get, right? As more and more people start seeing it. Like in my previous job, I started preaching open telemetry to the organization. But open telemetry was really new. So I got a lot of the questions, like, well, how can we trust this thing? Like, you know, the specs not even finalized. I think at the time, traces had just gone into general availability. Metrics were on their way. Logs spec was non-existent. It would have had this group, this Q&A session been available. That would have been something that I could have pointed to my bosses and said, hey, look at this. These are people who are actually using this. So that's something that we do monthly. And we always, you know, we always elicit volunteers who are willing to share their stories. And we've been lucky because we've had some people come up to us saying, hey, I really want to share my story. Or sometimes, you know, there are people we interact with in the community and we're like, oh my God, they've got a really compelling story to share. Let's tap them to see if they're interested in talking for a monthly Q&A. So that's what we've been doing. And so, you know, you use open telemetry, you're an advanced user or even an office user, we'd love to hear your story. Oh, and also we started putting together blog summaries of these interviews so that they're more easily discoverable as well. Yeah, we've gotten some good feedback on those. And so we look forward to continuing more of those as well. Another thing that we do as part of the NDE's working group is these monthly NDE discussions where it's just a virtual session. We have them for the Americas region. We have them in the EMEA region as well as brand new of this year, Asia Pacific APAC region. And it's basically an hour where NDE just gets together. We invite a member of either the governance committee or project maintainer on as well so that they can provide additional insight and context around questions and problems that NDE users may be having. But the goal is to help foster that sense of community within the NDE users and kind of help build that trust and also, you know, just provide a, as I said earlier, a vendor neutral space for NDE users to come together and just kind of talk about like, hey, how are you doing this thing in your organization? Hey, I have this problem. Has anyone else had this problem? And we also summarize those in blog posts that are available on the Open Solometry blog as well. So they're pretty easily discoverable if you want to go on there and just kind of see what people are chatting about and what are some like common themes. And the cool thing about these sessions too is that, you know, sometimes you get like some really gnarly use cases where, oh my God, I haven't heard of this thing before. So I always feel like whenever I attend one of these, like I always learn something new. Especially because like we have somebody, like one of the maintainers or governance folks on there, like they bring new information as well. Like there's always like cool stuff to discover. It's like, oh, I hadn't even heard that this thing in Open Telemetry existed. So no matter what, even, you know, even if you're not necessarily asking questions, like just to attend is such a great learning experience. Yeah, if you just want to learn more about Open Telemetry, these are a great way. And, you know, feel free, it doesn't have to be like a specific advanced implementation question at all. It can just be, you know, higher level overview questions about these things as well. And one of our goals with these discussions too, which we're still kind of working out, is streamlining the process of getting that feedback that we get from these discussions and feeding it back into the maintainers and kind of helping improve the project that way. Excuse me. And I also wanted to call out like a few other things, is one we have, we've actually recently started this, is both like writing workshops and CFP reviews. Cause one thing that we've kind of identified at a governance level and also I think at an end user community level, is that the best way to get your story out there into the community, into the wider cloud native community, is to get your end users talking, right? Get people at KubeCon. Get people into blogs. But also at like, you don't have to go to a KubeCon, you don't have to come to open source summit to tell people about observability, tell people about open telemetry. So figuring out like, hey, let's, we can, you know, this isn't just KubeCon CFPs, right? Do you want to talk at a DevOps days? Do you want to talk to like a local user group? Do you want to start a brown bag at your organization? Then we want to provide those resources for you so that you can become, you know, kind of an advocate unto yourself and go out and really share the message and feel like you're empowered to kind of speak for open telemetry because you're part of a community, right? You're not just, hey, I'm someone that's using this. It's like, I'm telling you about this because I'm, I feel like I belong here. Yes, and we're stoked to say that someone spoke at open source summit today. Reese, do you want to? I hope you guys don't mind us getting out Shubhanshu and Chris from Adobe. Shubhanshu's been a... Give him a big round of applause. The system works. Yeah, sorry to call you out, but like we're just so excited to see, you know, one of the things that we put on was a CFP review where we just kind of gave like some guidance around like, hey, if you want to, you know, do a talk, like these are some guidelines. And yeah, Shubhanshu was, you know, we've seen him at some of these resources that we put on, so it's very exciting to finally meet him as a person as well and also kind of hear history about how we were able to help. And yeah, and here, they are speaking, so that's so exciting. So we've talked a lot about our successes. You know, what would you all say are some of the challenges that we've experienced along the way, because not everything is, you know, 100% hunky-dory all the time? Yes, I think one of the things is, you know, because we do get a good amount of engagement and participation, but you know, there's also a challenge of like, how do we encourage more attendance and participation? Yeah. I would also say getting folks to, I guess, having a way for folks to ask questions and give feedback, because like, sometimes we get a lot of questions like in our end user working group Slack, and they're good questions, but we're not necessarily the ones with the information who are able to answer that question. We don't want to also like ignore your question because obviously it's a very important question we want to address it, and we don't want you to think, oh, these guys are jerks. They don't answer my questions. So a challenge has been like trying to figure out how do we forward these questions to the appropriate folks so that they can get the answers that they need so that they can implement open telemetry? How are you, Rin? Yeah. I mean, I think one of the challenges that we're facing right now to build on what Adriana said is really how do we build a feedback loop within open telemetry? One of the challenges in a large commercial open source project as project scale is that you have a lot of people who are focused on the work of their individual working group which have a narrow charter, specific things. They probably own their code repo and can decide what to contribute and in what directions to go. And then you have the governance committee in our case or some other level of authority that is focused on the entire project. And what is often missing in governance is something that you have to develop as you scale is this kind of middle layer of working between working groups. So like we're making this end user feedback but how do we know where to put it because every group has individual things? Individual processes for how they prioritize their issues, how they open issues. We are able to aggregate this as a group which is what is really neat. We're not getting a million individual complaints from end users that are sort of badly written and don't have all the details. This should be wonderful in theory and how do we actually get it in practice, get the work done. And that's something that we're sort of very actively working on now because it's a scaling challenge we hit. We used to have a technical committee of a few people who really across them knew the whole project and would make these kinds of decisions. And we still have the technical committee but they are no longer, no one person can really hold the scope of open telemetry or even five people. I would almost describe it as an analogy is that you have, it's like a sandwich, right? And at the top of the sandwich, you need two pieces of bread to make a sandwich. I mean, we're not talking about lettuce wraps. We're talking about sandwiches. So you need the governance and right, you need the formality up here and then you need the other piece, the actual product itself and the six and the people that maintain it. But the thing that gives the sandwich its flavor is sort of the filling, right? And that is where I see sort of this community layer is that we're between these two things. We're an interface between the kind of slower, more ponderous nature of governance and the actual technical implementation of the spec which also moves at a completely different pace. And it has to because we're not building, our users are varied. They are at some of the largest companies in the world and they have extremely demanding requirements around like security or operationalization. One thing that I don't know if you mentioned it, like there are people that do come with questions that just like I can't tell you who I work for, right? Or I'm not able to talk about this because reasons and I can't tell you those reasons. And obviously that's a challenging kind of environment to give someone support in. One other thing I want to try to address that is we have a community initiative now to encourage more maintainers to go into Stack Overflow and answer questions in Stack Overflow, right? Because that is a more indexable, searchable way to do a knowledge base versus a lot of things in Slack. So briefly before we can move to our takeaways, what are the next steps for this, right? Because I actually don't do it like this is kind of their show. I just stand up here and look pretty. What are really the next steps? Starting with Rin, where do you think this is going? What do we need to do as a project to move forward with the end user working group? Sure, yeah. I think we covered some of this the last time but for me the next step is really to improve and figure out how to close this feedback loop so that we actually make end user feedback real because that's how we actually improve the developer experience and make it easier to adopt. And I think also to think about how we can develop materials that support sort of the business side, the negotiating side of adoption because it's very hard with this project because we are a middle layer between the customer and the vendor. And so to the vendor we are the essential thing that is sending data and to the customer it's like, you know, to their big business people it's like, oh well this is something we have to do, it's something that we have to get out of the way in order to adopt the vendor that we have just paid a bunch of money for when actually it's like, well if we're really smart and configure this well we can totally have our telemetry system set up for our needs, taking economies where we're able to retaining a lot of data where we're not able to, where we're not able to take those economies because it's really important. Adriana, what about you? What's your next step? I think part of the next step is to keep on keeping on, right, I think we're doing things that we're definitely seeing traction in the community, so continuing with our Q and A's, continuing with our end user discussions, our blog post summaries. One of the things that we, I don't think we got into was hotel and practice, which is also a monthly thing that we have where basically an end user tends to like, present on a topic, it's almost like giving like a conference talk and we're trying to figure out, well do we keep the current format or do we expand it into something that instead of it being like a monthly one or two talks thing, do we turn this into something that is, you know, a little bit more spread apart, but it's almost like a mini virtual conference kind of thing. So these are the types of things that we're pondering to keep that community engagement, keep those discussions going. Yeah, I think the feedback loop that we mentioned is really important and like I said, it's something we're trying to figure out. We have different avenues that we're getting feedback from, including like a community survey, which we haven't mentioned yet, but that is available. I think we have a QR code at the end if any of you are interested, if you're already using up a telemetry and you wanna share feedback about your experiences, that's like a kind of quickish, easier way to share that feedback if you're not, you know, going to the SIG meetings and talking to these maintainers directly or in the SIG instead of Slack, which are also great ways to share your feedback about your experiences. Yeah, I think another part is just like increasing the participation because, you know, I think a lot of people tend to think, oh, you know, my feedback doesn't actually matter or this isn't gonna go anywhere and we really want to drive home to point that, yes, it does matter, we do wanna hear it, the matter, you know, how much of an edge case you think it might be and just figuring that out and also helping teams get that buy-in from their organization, leaders, to be able for them to adopt and implement open telemetry is another one. We're at about seven minutes remaining and we've actually been over a lot of the takeaways that we were planning to do, which was great. Yeah, but I do wanna put it on this here. So we open up to the discussion. Yeah, I do wanna just like put the takeaways up though, like I think these are sort of the values that I would like to think that we really have coordinated about and it's the idea that, you know, your competitors are not your enemies, the pool is big enough for everyone to swim. The end user group provides like this really strong structure to synthesize, to be that filling of the sandwich and honestly, the most valuable currency in open source and in life in general is trust, right? And trust is very hard to build, it takes a long time, it took years, I would say and one thing that I don't think was pointed out, like one of the challenges we have right now is a lot of that trust exists because of individual human beings that are still in like leadership positions in the project and how do we encode that into governance? How do we make sure that our ability to trust each other and love each other and, you know, work towards this greater goal is something that can be put into a document and that we can make sure that people follow even when we're gone. With that said, yeah, I think we can open it up to, I think we actually have five minutes. If anyone has questions or discussion points or you can hang out afterwards and we can talk. Okay, you first I think, do you want a microphone or do you want to just? Do we need a microphone? I can repeat the question back. We have, yeah. We do have an accent. Do we have the handheld? I don't want to throw it. Oh wait, wait, wait. That's not on. It's not on. There's a switch. Okay. Is that on? Yeah, now it's on. Okay. I think it's really fascinating how much you all invest in getting actively getting community feedback from different kinds of stakeholders. And I'm wondering what you think other open source projects could learn from your approach there. Yeah, I mean, I think the play that we ran is something that almost anyone can run. I think you can kind of map like who is contributing to the project in general? Who might care about the project but isn't contributing? And what are their incentives and why are they not incentivized to contribute? You can really do some thinking around those questions, look into like stakeholder mapping and try to think about why that's important to figure out who your equivalent of the end user for us is. It might be an end user. It might be a completely different group. And sort of the discussion group play is very easy to run. We basically run those on a lean coffee format which you can look up. It's like five minutes on each question and people get to sort and rank the questions based on group interest. The end user interviews, we literally made up a list of questions and you could run those right away. We usually bring an entire team from a company like an observability team and several maintainers and it just becomes a discussion. Those are super easy plays. The other things that we're running like the conference, like hotel and practice, the speaking series, those are more produced, require more effort but you can run these to right away. And I would add also like, with any open source projects especially if you have like people contributing from across different orgs like just make sure you check the corporate bullshit at the door, right? And just you're all friends here. Like we all work at different companies, we're competitors but we're all friends. Like we're all working towards the common goal which is making sure that hotel is awesome. Yeah, and I would add that something we need to do in the next year is we have built trust among this group of people. And as this group turns over, as people change jobs, you know like we're often lucky to go to four years at a tech company, four years might be a long run for a lot of folks at a lot of companies. How do we actually codify that in our governance? And that's something that we have to work towards so that that spirit of collaboration is preserved as folks turn over. One more question. Oh, cool. One more question. One more, anybody? Hey. Hey, that's down. Turn around. Oh yeah, you guys turn around. Okay. Are there any other open source projects or groups that you draw inspiration from that are doing it really well? I think a lot of hotel as a project is kind of deliberately founded in the Kubernetes model because that was the biggest project to date that had the same sort of like multi-party stakeholder system. Like there's a lot of people that care a lot about Kubernetes. But I think that individually, I mean, is there anyone, you all look to different inspiration? There's a group within CNCF called Tag Contributor Strategy that is working on patterns and templates for governance, for how to make your projects more welcoming to contributors. So because that group has visibility into a lot more CNCF projects than just ours, we're able to kind of draw on the wisdom of a lot of different folks that are working together. And gosh, what about you? I know of, I recently at KubeCon learned about a group called Tag Application Delivery, I believe. And all the folks that are involved there are from different companies that are trying to do the same thing, which is like provide tooling for like platform engineers. And so there, I think recently they came together and wrote this white paper to kind of set some standards at the stage for that sort of thing. So it's nice to see like a couple of examples. Like, and I think they're a newer group. It's kind of nice to see that you're seeing this crossbender collaboration. How about you? Actually, so one of the resources that we put out, which is the monthly end user discussion group, that idea actually came from an end user. I was trying to, actually, that's a good idea. Probably should have looked at other projects to figure out what they were doing. I did not, but I did get this idea from an end user who said, oh, this is something that, this other group that he's a part of, I don't remember the name of the project anymore. But it's something that we do, like I would be interested in this if he had it. And we're like, amazing. And so we've been doing it almost every month since it's been a year now, I think. And it's something that I think the end users that do come find great value in. So that's something that we're trying to, increase awareness of. And yeah, I think finding inspiration from end users themselves too is another great way because they can tell us exactly what they need. And I would add standards bodies, both as like something to look at, how they've done their governance and how they ensure that different members have different voices and like as an anti-pattern full of cautionary tales. Yeah, I would just conclude this point, like there are a lot of resources in the Litix Foundation and in the CNCF for these sort of things. There's a lot of people who you should have access to. It's one of the benefits of really being part of a large open source foundation, is that you can kind of tap on people's experience. So you do have to go looking for it, but go looking for it, right? Build that community, that's what we're really here for and meet those people, make those friends and those are the kind of connections that will help you really achieve your kind of dreams in open source and help you to land amongst the stars. Thank you for your time today. Like, yeah, you like that? That was 100% improv, baby. Thank you all so much for coming. Thank you, thank you. You can find out more information about OpenTelemetry at OpenTelemetry.io and we have links to our working group home and Andrew's survey. And we're all on CNCF Slack, so you can reach out to us at any time. Or other places on the internet. So again, thank you for your time. Thank you.