 Good morning once again. Welcome to the breakfast if you're just joining us here on PLOS TV Africa. Our first major conversation this morning is going to be on the resolutions of the Southern Governors Meeting. Earlier we had shared some of those resolutions including those on the State Police, a Southern President in 2023 and of course you know also their thoughts on the PIB. This morning we are speaking with the Publicity Secretary of the Northern Elders Forum, Mr Hakim Baba Ahmed and we're also going to be speaking with the Publicity Secretary of the Pan-Niger Delta Forum, Mr Ken Robinson. Good morning to you both, thanks for joining us. Thank you gentlemen. Good morning, thank you. All right, I'm going to start with Mr Baba Ahmed from the Northern Elders Forum. Quickly share your thoughts on the resolutions from yesterday but before you get into it, I saw something yesterday, Sani Yabagi, the chairman of ADP, he described the Southern Governors Meeting as a gang up against President Buahari and the North. So do you agree with him and what are your other thoughts? I would prefer to give you my opinion rather than someone else's. Absolutely. I saw the communique as one more effort by very senior politicians, governors, opinion holders, people who should know the way to approach political issues in a way that doesn't do justice to their positions. If Southern Governors want the presidency, they should work for it. Demanding or giving ultimatum or things that appear like threats is not good politics. You cannot, in a democratic setting, insist that you must have things your way. There are ways in which you can get the presidency and it's simple. Work within your party, field candidates, wherever they come from and work to get them elected. This business of it must come here, it must stay there, doesn't work. It will not work and people will not be impressed. I have to say that I'm disappointed. This is the second time Southern Governors who, one would have thought, are sophisticated, very polished politicians are making these kinds of demands, obviously targeted at the northern part of the country. Give us the presidency. The president is not given. The presidency is competed for, it's worked for, and the North is not, I guess, anybody who becomes president provided they work through the democratic and political process. What the governors are doing there is looking for shortcuts and I'm afraid they're not going to get it. Okay. Mr. Baba Ahmed, let's put a pause here. We have a report that our correspondent found yesterday, a comprehensive one regarding that meeting that was held in the Laos-a-Legos. So, Hakeem Baba Ahmed, Publicity Secretary, Northern House Forum. Also, we were speaking with Mr. Ken Robinson of Pandef, do stay with us. Let's take a listen to this report. Legos State Governor Baba Jidesong Wulu and his deputy, Femi Hamzad, welcoming each of the southern governors to their second meeting in as many months. They are here to assess the decision taken during their meeting of May the 11th, when they announced a ban on open grazing and disclosed their stand on restructuring and state policing. Governors go into closed door talks, which lasts about five hours. At the end, the chairman of the forum and governor of Oundo State, Roteme Akiridulu, reads the communique. The forum reiterates its commitment to the policies of equity, fairness, and unanimously agreed that the presidency of Nigeria be rotated between southern and northern Nigeria and resolve that the next president of Nigeria should emerge from the south. The southern governor's forum rejects the removal of electronic transmission of election results from the Electoral Act and rejects the confirmation of exclusive jurisdiction in pre-election matters on the federal high court. The governors reemphasize the need for state policing after reviewing the security situation in Nigeria. The forum reserves that if for any reason security institutions need to undertake an operation in any state, the state's security officer must be duly informed. The issue of open grazing and the petroleum industry bill are also mentioned. The forum set the timeline of Wednesday the 4th of September 2021 for the promulgation of the anti-grazing law in all its member states, anti-open, so anti-open-grazing law. 11 of the 17 southern governors were present for the meeting, four were represented by their deputies, while the governors of Anambra and Cross River States were absent. Jacinta Ubuku for PLOS TV Africa. Yes, that was a report by Jacinta Ubuku there. Filling in reactions on exactly what occurred when 11 southern governors met in the Lhasa yesterday for the meeting. We've been speaking with Hakim Baba Ahmed, representing the Northern Elders Forum and also in conversation with Mr Ken Robinson, he's a publicity secretary of the Pan-90 Delta Forum. Mr Robinson, good morning again. Good morning. Okay, let's first get your thoughts generally on this meeting yesterday and all the resolutions that they had. Well, we Pan-90 Delta Forum have lost the courage, determination and commitment of the southern governors to sustain the unity of southern Nigeria. It is interesting and it is pleasing that they met again under two months after their Asaba historic meeting. And the decisions and resolutions in this meeting in Lagos is again adding their voice and strengthening the position of the south of the people of southern Nigeria. On power rotation, you know that pandas and other organizations in southern Nigeria, like Afrinifera and our native indigos, had consistently maintained that power should shift to southern Nigeria after eight years of a Northern president. And so we congratulate the governors, we commend them and we hope that they will sustain this momentum in spite of their attempts to distract them. The people of southern Nigeria is for us, this is a new beginning of understanding and living in harmony as a people in the country of Nigeria. Okay, Mr Robinson, but Mr Babaame just mentioned that rather than the south demanding for power that it's rotated to them that the south can work for it. How about the perspective should the south not be thinking of working for it, you know internally rather than you know making demands that you know they just get that power share this time around? Well, we understand their concerns, but nobody had made any contrary comments when the 19 northern governors have been meeting all this while and they have continued to sustain those meetings year after year, regime after regime, nobody has condemned any of their resolutions even when some are very obnoxious and irrational. Now, southern Nigeria has started a new reality that we are one people, our problems are the same, those languages and tribes may differ, but we are one people and that's why it's so exciting. And this is our people, our governors who are actually their entrusts for the people. They represent the collective interests and aspirations of the people and it is a good thing that they have that realization and they are coming together in spite of their political differences and persuasions. So we commend them and we hope that our brothers and friends from Northern Nigeria will appreciate the fact and us begin to see how all of us can work together for a united, just, fair and equitable Nigeria where any Nigeria no matter where you come from, no matter your religion can become whatever that you desire to be. Hold on, I want to bring back Dr. Hakim Baba Ahmed. Some other things that you mentioned while your thoughts basically were mostly regarding the demand for a president from the southern part of the country in 2023, but there were other resolutions that were reached. There's the one on state police, there's only Petroleum Industry Bill, there's also on raids and arrests made by security agencies in their states and also on the anti-open grazing law. These governors, according to their statements, met and made these resolutions in order to achieve a more peaceful southern Nigeria and of course to pave a way forward. So are there any of these other resolutions that you agree are important and are being done in good faith and you are in support of, including the anti-open grazing law? Well, any comment made by 17 governors, we have to presume he's been made in good faith. It could be wrong as some of them are and there are contexts in which some of these issues are best raised. Governors are very important people, they are members of actually all the major decision making bodies at the national level, national security council, national council of states, a lot of other issues. They have access to the president who is a chief security officer of the country. They have many avenues with which they can raise issues regarding security, their decision on open grazing. What is amazing about this tendency to bring very sensitive issues and matters that are best handled in confidential context is that southern governors have chosen to go public with many matters that they can achieve a lot more out of if they engage those who should do. For instance, the question about no security activity or operation should take place in a state without the approval of the knowledge of the governor is very curious. One would ask naturally, what exactly do they want? The president unfortunately, and I say unfortunately because we believe that we need to do some serious work on how much power regarding security is tested in the president and commander and chief of the armed forces. If southern governors believe that they need more power to exercise, they need to exercise more power in terms of security operations in their state. A statement is not going to be what they need to do. It's again like the southern presidency thing. They need to work very hard with the decision making processes, with the legislature, with the president and with other Nigerians to make sure that governors have more powers other to that approval, stop or modify the operations of security agencies in their state. But as things stand, I don't see the constitutional basis or even the political rationale for bringing a matter of such sensitivity unless the governors have a specific issue in mind and they don't want or they don't have the courage, let me be plain, to bring it up. But I don't see how that helps a situation where 17 governors say don't undertake security operation in our state or in our region unless we're informed. So that's the first one. The issue about open grazing, they've made this position very clear. There are various positions on this. We in the Northern Elders Forum have made our position on this issue very clear. This is not an issue that can be solved overnight or by stroke of the pen and with deadlines. We understand it's a very complex issue. There are legal issues involved. We would like to see an end to open grazing, but we would like to see an orderly, organized and safe end to open grazing. We believe that this requires a national law to deal with. We don't believe that pay state decisions or panic measures are going to be the solution. Open grazing is a national issue. It's not just a full-time issue. It's not a Northern issue. And it should be handled at the national level. The federal government and state governments, all of them, not just the southern states, need to improve their collaboration, need to improve their sharing of information and strategies to deal with open grazing. So there are a number of issues that are on the whole. I just think that Northern Governors, Southern Governors, are playing to a gallery in a manner that doesn't do justice to their standing in this country. And it's sad because of all the times that we need our leaders to talk together, not to talk at each other, but to talk with each other. And to lower this tendency to go public with issues that they know very well, will just simply heat up the policy. Unfortunately, the Southern Governors have chosen this option. They would scare, they would send signals to other parts of Nigeria, but principally the northern part of the country, that they're facing hostile region that is making demands and what appears to be like this. And we shouldn't be doing this. We should be discussing the future of this country. We should be discussing where this issue about the Northern or Southern Presidency will become President Nudas. And this is basically a democratic issue. It shouldn't lead us into this kind of situations. When you see the South, 17 Governors, all of the members of the APC or PDP and maybe one from Africa, what do they do? How do they influence their parties? Do they speak at the political parties? Do they make cases for Governors and for the South for goodness' sake? And if assuming just for the sake of argument theoretical, you could get all the Northern politicians and all Northern voters to say, okay, we all agree the President should go to the South. Why should he go? Should he go to the people who are saying we've never had a President and it must be a time? Should he go to the Southwest, which is also making a case for the European Presidency? Should he go to the South? This is everybody's interest. It's not to the Southern interest. What about the democratic process? How can you force all the voters in the North force, literally force, because somebody in the South is threatening? How can you force the voters, even if the politicians can't see? How do you get the voters in the North to all line up and say, this time we've been asked or we must vote for the Southern candidate? We have lazy politicians. We have politicians who prefer to work on or towards a gallery rather than to work with each other. And this is very dangerous for this country. They are heating up the process of elections in 2023. And it is not a positive outcome. Dr. Baba, I'm not sure if it if it can be described as forcing, because we've in the past had conversations on federal character. We've had conversations on rotation, you know, with regards to Presidents, even at the state level. So I don't think this is necessarily forcing. This is sounds to me more like a suggestion that they would prefer if it goes to the South, not necessarily forcing anyone to vote in any direction. Well, the word forcing here, sorry, I can't report the point is, I'm saying this is not the kind of language or posture that supports the case for the Southern Presidents. It suggests a demand which should not be placed on the table in a democratic context. It circumvents a very important political process, which is negotiation, compromise, and engagement. It cuts out a huge part of the country in a decision making process that it has no business doing. The presidency of Nigeria is not the presidency of the Igbo or the Yoruba or the South-South order. It is the president of Nigeria. Nigerians need to be involved in deciding who becomes president. And how they decide that is through the political process and through the electoral process. This is the democracy. And it just seems to me that people are trying to get something using very lazy tactics. It doesn't work like this. Like I said before, they need to work within their parties, work to convince everybody, all Nigerians, Northerners and Southerners, that it is time to have the president on the Southern part of the country. When we ask it in the north, where it will go? Should it go to the Igbo or the Yoruba? Should it go to the South-South? Then you see the problem. Okay. Go ahead. Thank you, Dr. Baba Ahmed. Let's invite Mr. Ken Robinson back into the conversation. Mr. Ken Robinson, can you hear us? Mr. Robinson? Okay. We'll try to reconnect with Mr. Robinson there, publicity secretary of PANDEF. But Dr. Baba Ahmed, regarding this issue of open grazing, you mentioned that it's a national issue and we should deal with it nationally. So are you basically saying that when these governors met and decided that from the September 1st, 2021, that open grazing will be banned in the estates? That they're basically not having a nationalistic view. And I ask that because what the President has said in the person of President Mohammed Buhari is a support of open grazing and that grazing routes in Nigeria will be revitalized. So where do you think this might play in when the President is saying one thing but the Southern governors together are saying another? Would you respect, I don't speak for the presidency and I have to say that on a number of occasions, I think they've got it wrong, the issue about open grazing needs to be handled with extreme sensitivity. And the last one of those statements that I coming from the presidency does not suggest that the presidency is on its feet from this issue. First of all, there is almost total unanimity that everybody agrees we need to bring open grazing to an end. It is wasteful, it is unproductive, it is not dangerous because it triggers other security issues. But where we differ is that is where it says you need to sort it out, you know to sort out the criminal element among the hardest from the non-criminal and you need to bring a whole system that existed for quite close to centuries. In a manner that doesn't do justice to an economic asset and doesn't do justice to the security of communities. It can be done. There are programs within the presidency that are at an advanced stage that should be worked around by governors all over the country to support it and to bring an end to open grazing. What happened to all those plants? Why are we just talking about now deadlines and timelines? So they're not wrong to say we don't want open grazing but what they shouldn't do is to put a situation is to put a date or circumstances that makes it very difficult to have Nigerians who have rights to be where they are and to put laws or regulations that offend constitutionality. Now I'm not an expert here. I'm not sure whether the president is right or the minister of justice is right when he says it's unconstitutional to do this. I'm not going to get into that. But what I would say is this. I think that it is wrong to insist that open roots and categories in all parts of the country need to be open. You have a conflict there between the land use act which is in the constitution with the rights of governors to decide what to do with land in their states. And the president's position that Katama be allowed to go through all categories. I think there the presidency needs to update its knowledge and understanding of what the constitution involves. But this is not about laws. It's about the rights of Nigerians to operate in a place and where governors decide that this particular economic activity represents a threat or is unacceptable for very good reasons then we should find a way to do it responsibly and constructively. And in a manner that doesn't suggest that you are just pushing out people because you have the powers to do that. When you say the president needs to look closer at what the laws say it kind of sounds. I don't know if you are saying that the presidency and of course the minister of justice may not be fully aware or be able to fully interpret what the constitution says in that regard. And then second we're having a conversation now with regards to the loss of human lives and property that has gone on for far too long. The same speed with which we give orders with regards to the national identification number and other things and give deadlines you know and of course threaten to block lines for people who do not get registered and some of all of that. Why can't we do the same thing with regards cattle you know and at the same time and I just want to have your thoughts you know generally at the same time we're talking about grazing routes. There's no other business in Nigeria that has its roots across the country that you know are demanding that they have their own roots to carry their goods and services. First of all let's address the first issue. There's a tendency to suggest that every time the presidency muddles its way through governance and it does that a lot and issues and shows lack of understanding for lack of competence in management and handling issues. People tend to think oh this is a they're protecting the interests of the north they're not they're not protecting anybody's interests. They know the presidency needs to improve its level of competence and understanding context in which it leaves the Nigerians live and in a democratic setting that's the first point we're not protecting and we don't speak for the presidency and many times they're wrong. The security situation in the country has been at a very dangerous level because of incompetence from the presidency. That's important to note first. Then secondly when the president was talking to a TV station and he says I've ordered for the reactivation of raising roots. What came to my mind not just me but a lot of people is perhaps the president has forgotten the fact that the 1999 constitution bests powers to administer land in on governance. They can actually revoke those roots and reallocate under the law and the degree that the law doesn't say no you can't do that because you are exercising the responsible powers they have the power to do that. So where does the president get his power to reactivate all that patrols? In any case it's not issues about power like I said it's about responsibility. Governors in the southern part of the country have a responsibility to if they want to stop open grazing in a manner that doesn't do justice to any element of the national community. That's for me that's the point. Now people tend to compare they say things like okay why do they rush into certain things and they achieve some objectives arrest canoe chase Sunday war but we see bandits and we see kidnappers why are we not chasing all these threats with the same speed and the same result. Again go back to the presidency ask them what is happening to the bandit we want to see an end to the bandit in the north we want to see an end kidnapper we want to see a strong decisive result against bandits and kidnappers maybe the same the same result that was deployed in the arrest of and and the attempts to arrest a group we support it because we see from where we stand evidence of Nigerians who believe that they can break laws in this country okay political protection we want to see all criminals all irrespective of where they come from wrote a book that's what we want so we don't we don't we don't see a double standard here we don't want to see a double standard we believe a presidency should attack all sources of threats on Nigerians but we should also exercise the powers that we have both the president and governors in a very responsible manner. Okay so one of the news that broke in the past few hours is about both chambers saying that INEC has a power to go ahead and conduct elections electronically people can vote online but at the result of those elections must not be transmitted online so at the governor's forum meeting yesterday they held that to consolidate Nigeria's democracy and strengthen the electoral process that they basically reject the removal of electronic transmission of results from the electoral act and they also see that they reject the confirmation of exclusive jurisdiction in pre-election matters so does another Nelda's forum stand with the southern governors on this one or do they differ regarding you know electronic transmission of results because Miss People especially the PDP who I spoke to yesterday alleged that this is just a ploy for the APC to rig the elections if come 2023. Well then Nelda's forum doesn't necessarily all the time take different stands for southern governor. Southern governors quite often have the same position look southern governors speak for communities we engage those communities at different levels we have meetings with Hainese we have meetings with Apenipere our concern and concerns of groups in the southern part of the country on many issues are shared we share the same concern one of the most important things the nation needs to do is to come to terms with the fact that our electoral needs massive and qualitative improvements so we support the idea of improving the electoral process we support any innovation that improve the credibility of the elections safety of the ballot and the certainty that people who imagine through the electoral process are actually genuinely elected we followed the debate in the in the in the national assembly regarding the reforms to amendments to the electoral act and we hope we had hoped actually that the electoral transmission of results would pass if it is established and I'm not sure that we've seen the end of this issue if it is established that it will not be then it represents a sad development and there are a number of other sensitive issues on relating to improving the quality of our electoral process in that that must work at the eighth senate and the huge number of amendments were forwarded to the presidency a number of times they were returned back and we're hoping that now that the president has a very cooperative and very let me let me use a polite term supporting national assembly and then I think that is literally desperate for a new electoral act to allow it to prepare long before the 2023 election we were hoping that we will not have this kind of arguments and this late hour electoral transmission of results good it should be there and it should be supported by everybody and I think that the southern governments again I remind I remind my generous have a very powerful they have many many avenues through which they can do this I wish they had demand made this demand in a context that has not again diminished its value because they they keep positive things like we want this and we must have this we must have that yes you must have that but for goodness sake play the statesman play leaders play responsible governance go to those places where you think have it stop your senators stop the members of the house you have literally these people in your pockets call them demand that they make the work pushed through legislation that is important but don't don't meet for five hours and then come back and say that we want that and we want this I don't think that the way leaders and elected passage go yeah all right I've also heard people criticize the difference the different you know tunes that the house of members are making from the southern government so you do have a strong point there very similar to a lot of people have said also but I want us to talk security now they've spoken about state police and you know the need for you know better police and of you know their states but I want us to go to the north yesterday we heard about 140 students once again kidnapped in Kadena state we've heard of multiple cases of kidnappings and and killings in the north and what do you think that the or do you think it's high time the northern governors also maybe met and you know and you know came to their own conclusions created their own resolutions with regards how to better police their states there's rumors of a bar no state having a second governor now I'm not sure if you've heard that yet one of the Boko Haramo I swap leaders has been appointed governor of certain regions in bar no state according to what the news is saying so do does the northern elders forum feel northern governors need to do better and maybe you know have their own very very important and urgent resolutions with regards security well certainly I mean you can have an end to concerns that I expressed regarding I'm sorry I've lost some power but I hope you can hear me yes we can trying to explain my own path there's no end to to what you can do and additionally under the law improve the security of my dad and the situation in the north is really tragic and this is one of the points I'm making I think in Nigeria's in the north and the south make understand everybody is living on that very very very stressful conditions from kidnappers and bandits that's the first one it's not an northern issue not a full-time mission it's a national issue what we have is a rampant runaway insecurity that is a lot more damaging in the north they're kidnapping children they're kidnapping close the school down schools this is an unprecedented threats that we're living under it's a very very serious issue northern governors are running between pillars and posts trying to find a way to deal with this issue my view is that we should we should just simply recognize the fact that this is a national issue governors have context in which they they they express their concerns they have responsibilities to make sure that they channel them in through institutional mechanisms all the decision making process there is an issue about how much power the ring of the security situation has provided for by in the constitution we support it we believe that there must be some amendment in the manner in which governors as chief security officers in states operate we support that what we think is the wrong way to go about it is to have this thing about for instance no governor governor says no no don't come to my state to undertake a security exercise unless i'm informed now that's strange uh and uh it flies in the line in the phase of of the law so that that's really personally as i said before there must be something else that the governors are hinting at that they are not uh willing to say very clearly what it is so but and i don't want to to put words in their mouth yeah absolutely not but is there anything wrong with just letting a governor know that there would be a raid you know at some point in his state is there anything wrong with informing the governor it's not i'm not sure certainly not in fact the movie is informed the better um see the idea that governors and the president and commander of the armed forces active security officers implicit in that is that they should work together um if the president controls the police they control the bsx the three governors chief security officers they complain we don't have control over the place we don't have the control some of it is true some of it is not so true it depends on on on who you speak to but cooperation and sharing of information is vital it's important um it's the language that says don't come to my state and exercise and and then take a security operation unless i'm informed that bit that bit is worried it's new um and if governors really feel this is the way to go i would have thought uh a podium after a five-hour meeting involving governors for one part of the country it's not the way to go they have a governor's forum one of the chairman of the national governor's forum governor fire me attended the meeting uh i think i saw him in among the governor yes he was he was there uh i mean he was there you would you would you would expect that governor somebody somewhere who would have um would say listen why don't we go to the governor's why don't we go to um raise these issues in a context where the president there's the vice president there are the IGP why don't we do these things where they really matter so come back to the question what is what is that position supposed to do other than to play to a gallery that really doesn't have the case um i again i have a lot of respect for for many southern governors i know them very well a lot of them are very good people but i think on this tendency to go public with issues that um they can take out more productively in a context that does justice to the issue it's just not good politics at all not on the southern governor or not on the southern presidency thing not on this issue of security not on this issue of open hand i somehow i think you have what you're seeing is a decline in the quality of leadership which is not peculiar to the south but it's it involves the whole country and it's very scary because it gives you a hint about what is likely to happen in the next few months um the pdp and apc fighting themselves and fighting each other fighting and fighting civil wars among them governors who are in pdp and apc are now ganging up and saying we want this and we want that politicians don't say we want this and we want that they work for it they they um they solve their books they do the heavy lifting um and they don't create problems nobody in this country can go anywhere or get anything unless they have to buy all parts of this country that's the bottom line whether it is by presidency whether it's security whether it is um economic issues you need the buying of all Nigerians to the degree that you need the national assembly to collaborate with you to the degree that you need um um presidency to work with you to the degree that you want a Nigerian motorist to work with you have to cultivate weight this habit of going to those places lobbying putting pressure working with them but you cannot just sit there and decide we want this and but we want that and we want it would work and if if the law is the target for goodness sake does anybody think of the effect of 100 million 20 million people caring about how you must give us this you must give us that to you does anybody worry that what this does is just simply to get the point taken well is it also um dr baba med is the is the is it the challenge at the resolutions or the way that they have been expressed do you think that they could have been expressed in a totally different manner um and they wouldn't you know maybe feel this way because i have it it also is it also is important uh dr baba med apologies it's also important um with the way that these things are interpreted um i shared earlier about the chairman of adp i believe i don't remember his name now who said that this is a gang up on the presidency and and president mama dupari um so when we have people interpret it interpret some of these things this way ignoring the fact that some of these resolutions truly are important at a time like this isn't that also more dangerous um are you talking about the ganging up or yeah i mean the the interpretation really when we were interpreted as a gang up um on the presidency and a gang up on president mama dupari um and of course you know like i said is the is it the resolutions or the way that they have been expressed that you know seem to be the biggest challenge here because you've agreed that some of these resolutions uh the northern elders forum yes i you know is in line with them but is the way that they have been put out and saying don't come to my state if it is said as we would like that we are informed would that be different um the language of the uh of the the communique yesterday was was very careful uh i read it twice i could see uh uh governors trying to walk a very tight line between making outright demands and suggestions and they chose their words very carefully and i thought was commendable but still what comes through is what comes through at two things one that 90 percent of what they said were things that they have an opportunity to raise in a context that is not productive engage the president engage the national assembly on the issue of the five percent to those communities those kind of issues can be discussed in a different context in a different setting so um uh yes the style and the locate the the manner in which they are raised um is for me not the best um also some of the issue that they raised uh uh account of productive for instance the issue of the um of the southern presidency raised in a manner and this is not the first time being raised scarce uh a lot of people from the northern part of the country because people in the northern part of the country are under the impression that we are running a democracy democracy says that parties should field candidates um going through normal the legitimate processes building candidates and the citizens will ultimately decide which candidate is the best in simple terms that's what this is all about now when when when political politicians who were elected who know how elections are held now come out and say we must be the president must come from this part of the country um they don't say must but they say they say it in a slightly different and more polite language but you know that that's what they mean um people say well how are you going to get that by resolution so all of us are going to line up you get scared what kind of president are we going to have in 2023 if if he is the product of threats and intimidation and to be honest uh some level of blackmail so what happens if there is no northern southern presidency in 2023 because not all political parties field southern candidate because northern government northern voters choose a northern candidate because the president is the best in simple terms what happens you you have a democratic process what yield another time has been primed to uh to to literally reject the outcome of a democratic process this is very dangerous so what i'm saying is that governors are politicians they know what politics they know how elections are conducted what stops them from engaging all nigerians including northern politicians and northern voters and their parties what stops them how why why are we having this recourse to threats and demands and and shortcuts that just won't work the northern voter is not going to be intimidated or blackmail or um who went into thinking that unless there is a southern presidency in 2023 the one who will come to an end he is not going to be intimidated um he will exercise his right as a voter uh in 2023 whatever whatever people say but the northern voter is also an enlightened voter if somebody works hard enough to convince him or her that this candidate from the southern part of the country is the best for nigeria not for ibo not for yoruba not for the south south not for the fulani not for the house but for nigeria i assure you we will vote for a southern candidate all right that was just gonna make very good preparation for people who are responsible who are leaders to be putting this issue in the manner they are is counterproductive it just creates hostility it creates resistance and it makes the job of having southern president that would be all right that that was going to be my final question but you've already answered it um dr hakim baba med publicity secretary of the northern elders forum thank you so much for your time this morning i truly enjoyed the conversation with you and we look forward to many more of these uh conversations thanks for joining us thank you thank you for inviting me thank you absolutely wow so this this indeed is something that seems that will continue to be debate because we heard what the northern what the southern governor said you know talking about how you know they believe that the next president in nigeria should emerge from the southern part of the country it's open to interpretation like you know we've seen we heard what um um the secretary the publicity secretary of uh pandev said and how you know um dr hakim baba med interpreted it to me doesn't sound like a threat because we know about the the you know norm of zoning we we know how the apc will come together and say we'll believe that the presidency should be zoned to this particular region and the pdp could say make such statements so to me i just feel that uh if if in any way some other people would say this is a great consensus that we need rather than having division and you know this one says it should be here should be here that other people would say it's great that you know we're having governors come together speaking in one voice to say let's agree on the south it's not like you're imposing that on the voters you know so people would interpret it different ways others will say you know you're making threats you're making demands others would say no this is a consensus that we need the unity that we're talking about so at the end of the day um he mentioned one thing that i agree with that the governor should do their work you know we'll keep talking about the game of politics you know definitely you will not force voters to do what they want to do or what you want them to do but politicians should do their work if you want the governorship to be zoned to the south then let southern candidates you know field in let them buy the party tickets let them win their primaries and let the voters make the choice ultimately but beyond the 2023 conversations other ones regarding state police we've been having conversations for time and time again still about the issue he mentioned let politicians do their work so let's begin to see the government of lego state start talking about the state police let's say the governor of organ state start talking about state police and beyond talk let's see them begin to make their formation would they come out of the nandrian police force would you have a system of you know instituting trainings how would you let's begin to see the walk let's begin to see the action not just you say we want this we want this or this is what we stand let's begin to see your action well some of all of this still needs to we still have to involve the amendment of the constitution with some of all of this they can't necessarily go through all of it by themselves the constitution needs to be amended and you know it's one of the things that he mentioned also that they shouldn't just make these resolutions it looks like playing to the gallery if you don't involve the representatives in the national assembly to lobby for some of these things and that's why it's politics which i agree with him you know on that level it can not just be resolution of several resolution there has to be lobbying there has to be diplomacy there has to be negotiations there has to be these conversations across board you know my fear really well not a fear per se but one of the things that i mentioned without or once again state is the interpretation and how dangerous some of these interpretations are with the way that these things are taken back you know different parts of the country regarding that thing you quoted i am not even going to take that to heart because yeah but when northern governors meet they would nobody describes that as a gang up when the not when the Nigerian government's forum meets nobody's so i just feel that his own personal opinion i don't feel it should take national precedent it should not cause any chaos anyway but there is thousands and thousands of people who look at people like this and you know take what they say seriously there's thousands and millions of people who look at what the northern elders forum says and who take it you know seriously and so it's really really about the interpretation there's always going to be these characters and yes if you're enlightened enough you would ignore it and say well this is just some character you know taking this time on tv to you know spew nonsense but there's it's also very very dangerous and for a long time we've continued to have these type of characters jump in into very very important conversations and try to you know deflect you know try to you know paint it you know either religiously or you know or politically and just completely take away the meat of the conversation and you know and ruin everything so there is those characters and they will interpret it their way so that whatever it is that the not the southern governors have met and come together as their resolutions will be disregarded because somebody has been treated in a different way entirely now we're all going to ourselves to be informed absolutely so when someone says something from their own biases and stereotypes you don't just take it who clans it there's people who still believe that the ensar's protest was meant to topple the government there's people who believe that namnikano sponsored the ensar's protest you can you would see these people amongst yes you will see these people amongst you they're learned they have gone to school they probably have phd so they can't think for themselves but there's some bias that you cannot take out of people and you know when a person let's say you can't wake up a person who's pretending to sleep and when a person decides that that is biased that they want to work with they will work with it sometimes you hear what the means of information says and you can't believe that these things are actually coming out of the minister's mouth but that's what he has said and that's what he said you can't you there's nothing you can do about it I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation with him he seemed like a you know a real diplomat you know a person who understands balance understands the way that conversation should be had and the importance of those conversations and like I said you know I hope that we have many many more of such it's time for us to go we apologize for not being able to of course have Mr Ken Robinson join us publicity secretary of the Pan-Niger Delta Forum but thanks for being with us on this Tuesday morning I'd like to say a happy birthday to my sister-in-law Orgo and Juliette of all happy birthday to you and if you missed out on any of these conversations we had remember to join us on our social media platforms Facebook and Instagram at plus TV Africa yes my name is Anato Felix saying thank you again for being a part of our Tuesday morning