 Good afternoon. Hello. Well, following the morning session, I think everyone's really interested about the education issue, especially when Abby mentioned about the practical problems when you are conducting indigenous policies. This afternoon's first session is very interesting because we have Professor Wu here. She is, I would say, one of the earliest scholars who's actually dedicated her research on indigenous studies. And she started in, of course, is in no surprise because she's an anthropologist. And I think her PhD is also in indigenous education. Oh, gender issue. Sorry. But I saw some of her publications, oh, sorry, was on indigenous education, especially focused on the higher education. She was the dean of the College of Indigenous Studies at Donghua University. And she's now the professor in the Department of Ethnic Relations and Cultures at the same university. Today's focus will be slightly different from tomorrow's session. However, they are always interlinked with each other. And today's main focus is really place on the dilemma and issue challenges faced indigenous higher education. Without further ado, may I ask you to put your hands together and welcome Professor Wu. Thank you. Thank you. It's my great honor to be here. I would like to present my three-year research result here. Before the end of the due date, so your responses will be helpful. OK, let me introduce my research right now. Today, the topic is from within to for us dynamic model in indigenous higher education. I'm not an indigenous people, but I have worked on this issue about 27 years. So from the beginning, I always think I'm working with them. But right now, I think I'm working for us because we are together. So for me, it's kind of dynamic model. So I try to put it into a research and become an action, try to influence the education in universities. Right now, I'd like to introduce from the beginning, I'm asking the question, whose knowledge. In higher education, usually, we are trained by Western knowledge system. Like myself, I graduate from Ohio State University and then anthropology from the Western point of view. Even we have native anthropology before I graduate. So I did my research about gender issue in Taiwan. But basically, most of all the theories and opinions are always talking about the Western experience, using Western point to explain what's happened in Taiwan, what's happened about the indigenous people. So I think it's about the time we try to reflect the thinking and try to make some movement. So because I'm teaching the projects, I'm always fine. The textbook and teaching materials used in Taiwan is the many reflections of dominant cultures from the view. Like right now, I use the Codex textbook is famous in Taiwan. Most of the professors use this as the introduction about cultural anthropology and translation. Of course, most of the cases talking about my students will never know where it is. I have to explain using my own way. So I think it's about time. So I'm trying to do something like culturally responsive teachings. I'm asking, how do we bring work knowledge into our classroom? I try to base on our teaching materials on our own real work, local events, and current issues. And I'm asking, what would be students' responses? So in order to do this research, I already interviewed 10 professors in the university about their experience. Basically, they all agree with me. They need to add the local materials. They need to build up our own knowledge system so it can make students feel interested. Otherwise, it's very, very far away from the experience. And the students may not feel related to their lives and see really opposite to what we think and the project should do. So I organize an integrated project, try to create culturally-safety cycles for Indigenous students during the process of teaching courses. So I choose four core elements, caricature, language, art, and communication. So I recruit four professors with me and try to write a project. Fortunately, four of us passed and one person didn't pass it. So we lack of some dimension for this research. But anyway, we try very hard right now. It's a kind of experiment with teaching effectiveness in the context of Indigenous cultural education. So we designed Indigenous culturally responsive teaching methods for all students. Because our students, we have half of them are half of the dominant cultural people. Half of them are Indigenous students. So we have to separate the different needs. OK, this is our original way we think about it. We are from different disciplines and we try to make connections. We try to use a lot of ways, basically, cause design and combine teaching activities. So we have a relation from the beginning and try to make something happen. So like we have integrated curriculum. So I recruit four professors together. We discuss which class we are going to teach and which issue we can discuss together. And we can invite guest speakers. We can design teaching activities. Both our students will be interested. So I design a new method, reflecting the holistic way of learning and teaching. Because for us, we think teaching is not only one way. We hope it becomes both. And we have learning and teaching together. Usually, my professors refer to me. They also learn a lot from the Indigenous student while we are teaching Indigenous culture. This is also my experience. Because we know all the basic idea concept, but we don't know the details. So sometimes I teach the student, give me the detail. Even they don't know, they call their grandma. And tell me later. So I think I learn a lot after I teach these kind of courses. We both get benefit from each other. So after the teaching and learning process, we engage in process of self-reflection and critical analysis of our effort in the course of discussion between our team members. We usually meet once in a month. And we discuss what our findings are. We recruit guest speakers. We design activities. So for us, the discussion is also very important. And we try to modify what we are doing. So it's kind of, we are doing everything differently day by day because we are committed a lot of the experience right now. So we also evaluate the effectiveness of teaching from standpoint of students feedback and their academic achievement. Because I think it's not only for our professors that what the student need and what the student want to learn and how do they see about it. We put so many indigenous cultural materials into the classroom. What would our student think about, especially for Han students, because we have half of them. How do we think about it? It's also our important issue to discuss. And the whole process is kind of step by step. So it's a three-year project. So we have a lot of time to combine our class together. We're using indigenous culture as the overlaying core element. We designed teaching activities and constructing and constructing indigenous knowledge system. Because we think indigenous knowledge system usually they are separated by different discipline when we teach culture. We're talking about culture, but maybe culture is related to political issues. Maybe it's related to other issues. And also for the core elements about indigenous knowledge, it's not divided into so many segments. This would be core. Like I talked to the elementary school teachers when they teach the group of cultures, they explain GAGA, GAIA is kind of their core value. But if they put into the teaching activities, they think it's about moral education, but it's also a spiritual education. It's also a religion, also a kinship, also a subsistence. They're all related because they all follow that GAGA spirit so they can become the real Taruku people. So, but usually we have to satisfy what's going on for the classroom. So we only see a little bit, a part of them is not a holistic system. So I think it's a bigger issue, so I try to do things and I also discuss with elementary school teachers. Okay, so I tried it in my classroom. I teach multicultural communication. So I invite Dr. Chen from the art department to visit a junior high school attendant by members of the Drupal tribes with us and join our activities. Basically it's my graduate school classes. So my students, they are PhD students or master students. They are very happy to have the experience go there and talk to the teachers over there. So the school's principal arrange a discussion section with us so we could exchange ideas with teachers who are in charge of Indigenous cultural education in this school. So basically we, this is the middle high school. This is their Drupal cultural classes. Actually the teacher, they design a new way to teach a student about weaving. So this is Dr. Chen, this is my graduate students. They are students because they think it's easy to teach in a classroom compared to the traditional way. So the teachers they work very hard try to transmit cultures. They have a lot of creative ways to do it really envy them. Okay, we use participant observation as an opportunity to do it. So we engage in their cultural education classroom taking part in nation activities centered around singing, weaving and archery. We were asked by the teachers to provide some encouragement for the students. The students already perform well because they recognize the importance of traditional learning. Remember when we went to the chorus, the students they are seeing because we break into their classroom, they are waiting for us. And the teacher said, please give us some encouragement. And Dr. Chen gave them the thing that had to be a reader. Teruku boys have very nice Teruku girls that give their encouragement. And after we left, the teacher tell us the students seem better. They can do better after we left. So we need to give them some encouragement, which is important. Otherwise, they may think they just perform it for entertaining people. But we told them the really reason why you are learning your traditional singing or dance or it's important for the formation of your personality, something like that. So we were all impressed by the effort of the teachers and the students. And also the teachers, they are happy because they have so many questions to us. They think, all right, what should we do? And they need to know a lot of outside resources. So we provide them, they can join some competition. They definitely will win because I think they work very hard and have very good results. So for both of us, as past students, my students evaluated because after that I reviewed this. And they say this visit is positive because it enabled them to see what goes on in the real school because we always talk about just from the papers. Right now they can really see the professors and teachers and give them opportunity to ask questions and inspire each other. This is the principal and my students and my group members. They even give us this welcome. So we feel very happy. Okay, so we have challenges. During their teaching and the learning process, we can understand how the teacher designed the courses and what challenge they are facing because most of the elementary school, middle school, high school teachers, they are not indigenous people. Even they are indigenous people, they don't really know their cultures very well because they are educated by the dominant cultural system, educational system. So they are facing this job. They have to teach indigenous culture but what is taught in indigenous culture is they usually learn from the internet or they learn from the professors' writings but they don't really understand it. So they write down something but some of them are really funny so I tell them, don't do that. They can try the other way because they try to over-execurate. It's good, it's good but we cannot always say everything is good. We must find the reality. We have to teach the students what's going on. So I think we need to give the teachers help so I try to tell them they need some evaluation after they finish their research or they need some practice and we can help them as university professors. So right now I have some cooperation with them. Even under the limited resources in the formal education system, the tribal people show their occasions to teach their own culture in the school because even the resources is not enough but they really worry about the younger people cannot see in the old store anymore. They cannot go to hunting anymore so they even would give them very few money but they're still very happy to do that and I found out the indigenous teachers they get more responsibility to do it. So right now they are doing very well as a leader to do similar activities. The other classes, my cultural anthropology classes, I invite Dr. Tang. She's the Ruku linguistics from the Department of Ethnic Languages and Communication to join our teaching activities. Her students got the chance to teach my students about the indigenous language. So it was amazing to watch students with various backgrounds sitting around each table learning different ethnic groups in my classroom. I think, oh, that's my dream as anthropologists. The linguistics students tried their arguments to teach my students efficiently and their passion was contentious. In the process we knew, we were creating new and student-friendly environment for learning about indigenous culture together. So this semester I designed another course. I keep on doing that. Also we have some guest speaker. This is Pauline Chin from University of Hawaii. She gives us her experience and the students learn a lot about Hawaii indigenous education. It's why my students experience. They know what's going on in Hawaii. They get inspired from the successful story. Also Dr. Chin is very helpful. My student just goes into her hotel room and she gives them two hours talk about their own questions. They usually don't ask us because they find someone can really talk. I think Dr. Chin did a very good job. Okay, and she used Hawaii young people's experience to inspire my student first reading. Young people can do cultural heritage records. All people can do the same thing. So this is Dr. Tom. She's translating. This is my dean. This is me. My dean is also a ten. She's a Zou tribe people. I also invite a Japanese scholar from the Jewel University to talk about international understanding education. I think my students are very grateful because they ask him about the questions that will be had by Olympic in Tokyo. And they have prepared a lot of things to help foreigners to adapt to Japanese culture. But my students ask them, how they think that foreigners they need to learn about Japanese culture. Not only Japanese who try to learn foreign cultures or all the active, deep designs. So I think my students really know the cultural equality. Okay, this is her speech. My professors are asking the questions. Okay, the other classes is Indigenous Education class. I invited a Canadian scholar to compare the differences and similarities between two cultures. Dr. Shimon, he insists we are circling each other so we can describe. I think he came here to describe the feelings about the feather in class. So they think we are equal. So the professors and teachers should be in the cycle. Everybody are equal. They, he created the environment. So I think it's nice. So after he left, I do the same thing in my classroom. So I learned a lot. And also there's another speaker, Dr. Shumei Yang, principle. She is a plume principle. Her PhD dissertation is about how to become a plume about, because she used her own experience. She did her own fieldwork and she designed very good course design for elementary school. So her book is very popular right now. I invite her to come and it's very useful. Because sometimes I told students so and so and they think it's theoretical but we find somebody, they really did it and they have very good result. It's very inspiring. Okay, I also invite our PhD student, Zifu. She is a, he is an Army student. Actually he has a lot of experience. He introduced silent teaching to make practice and discussion together. We struck the town's class about tribal language teachings. This is our picture, this Dr. Simon and our student. Because we are transmitted further so you have to talk about your experience. So my student, they were thinking and other professors, he's coming soon. Okay, they all coming too. I think he's very successful for this speech. Daniel as well, the one next. Daniel Lin, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He's in my group right now this year. Okay, Dr. Shumei Liang, he says from the difference, she finds the value of her culture and to help her to become a PhD and of course she knows the value of her culture. So she tries to introduce to my students. It's also very inspiring. I think it's better than what I'm talking. Just invite some people come. They can say how many of my students they are very happy and then we have, this is another speech, okay. And this is Shifu's speech. He introduced silent teaching and we make students different. You saw the students, we have various cultural backgrounds. So they sit around the circle learning the language together. Not only indigenous language, but also Taiwanese and Haka. So they circle it and they're learning different languages in this place. I always think it's nice. See, they are very happy. Then this is a tribal language teacher. She asks us a lot of things. You see, this is our tribal language teacher. They are working very hard and they discuss with young people, young people and indigenous people together. In our, this environment we call the Dalai. That's a meaning of meeting place for Amish people. So I think it's better than the regular class room. Okay, then I bring students into the tribe. So I use my Pātai cultural communication and our classes go to the Amish tribe museum. So they are the chief, the chief Dr. Chen Mi and museum staff, research assistant chair and my students. We are asked them to introduce the tribe. And we have some discussion. This is the chief, he's very happy. And this is Amish, my graduate students. And when we discuss together and the chief, he said, he feel very safe because young people don't learn their own language anymore. So he reprided Amish language front. So making very happy. So from the beginning, I think he only sit here and maybe he's not interested about our group discussion, but he's happy all the time. So I just sit back and see what's going on. The students, even they call out to other graduate students and we discuss the same issues. Like do we need to create a safe cycle for the indigenous students in campus? We have a lot of discussion. It's interesting. Also another class research method, I just asked my assistant making film. You will see it. It's not there well because we are not professional. Just record, but I still use it as a teaching material. I show that to the chief before he came. So I get his approval. And when he came to the class and he, because he know what's going on, he is the actor, many actor for that film. So he's very happy. She stopped us all the time when he want to say something. So I think he's happy about I'm introducing his culture in my classroom and he tried to explain us the whole detail about the harvest festival. And students ask the question and chief try to answer about it. Research is gear and culture content. And I think the dialect is very interesting because my students ask the chief the question like, how can you tell us, you distinguish the food that you can eat or you cannot eat? The chief cannot answer these questions because it's not the same logic. But he is very smart. He said, just wait a minute. I have a lot of vegetable and food in his trunk. So we wait 10 minutes, we go back and bring all the things and express to students. We can eat this, we can use that. So he show us some food and I don't even know because I never use it so I think I learn a lot too. So we can see the different way but we still need to learn from each other. So that's why I teach my students. Don't ask the people directly your question because they cannot answer. You have to answer it after you have done a few work. Okay, this is, I'm showing the film, we have discussed. Okay, after the class I have the modified survey. I chose 11 questions which are related to my teaching goals for the cooking is questionnaire. And I don't really like quantitative data. So I did five open-ed questions to elicit answers from students in their own world. And then I evaluate students feedback about my teachers and teaching activities in these two years. This basic result is everything is between 3.5 something like that, very good result. This is the question now. I don't think I need to read it. Or you don't want to read it? Anyway, they think it's successful. So the score is high. And the high level of satisfaction is teaching. Active is including rightist speakers. The open question I think is more interesting here. What did you learn? Which parts were your most impressive? How could the teaching activities improve? Will this topic be useful for you? What would you like to see in terms of future class arrangement? And this is, I just conclude some results, not everything but part of it. The first one is they appreciate the importance of tribal elders as the barriers of traditional wisdom, which is in danger of disappearing as they gradually die off. They really feel it because I bring them into the classroom. To apply the cultural knowledge they gain from class in their daily lives, to interpret the meanings of culture, they have learned various ways to present and observe cultures from the guest speakers. Not only expressing eagerness to join the process of cultural design, but they also appreciation for the chance to learn new things from guest speakers. Also, we can learn from each other and emphasize the dynamic part. The students' answers explain the importance of learning from each other. They spoke to the importance of professors being willing to listen to current interests and needs of the students. We are not just teaching, we will watch their feedback and fix it later, creating more opportunity for two-way interactions between students and professors. We all look forward to arranging more significant teaching activities for the class. And then I have the team that go to the elementary school to give them some cultural consultant. We exchange experience about how to make indigenous cultural teaching materials. We are advising the effective way to show the cultural traits for this Deruku school because Dr. Tang is a deruku local people, so when she showed up she was very impressive and persuasive, so I just sit back and see what's going on. And we have more interaction and cooperation between the school and the tribe. This is their school. You see the Great Mountain and this is a rainbow. They have a myth about Deruku, a legend about the rainbow. This is Dr. Tang, this is David. It's me, I sit back happily. She has to tell people the importance of keeping their language because they are dying from it, she feels very responsible. And we talk, most of the students are their teachers. They ask us a lot of questions, okay? Then this semester I bring the more students, more professors. This is Yang Jun Kai, also from Daniel's department. Because he makes the film, so I'm inviting you to join my group next year. We just sit back and watch the teachers teaching the students about Deruku cultures. And she's also our graduate student. She graduated and she's writing, she finished her thesis about this school, how they teach cultural issues, okay? This is Dr. Chang, they have this like art, we have different issues. Then we discuss each other, they ask us questions. They, my students created a new way to do exercises. They're using their traditional movements. So it's interesting, they are doing something, play the music instrument and the students they are very interesting, so we should, okay? This is the principal, this is the director. He invited us and he hoped we can come to Deruku more than the next time to do it again. I invited, this time we have Dr. Yang and this is Dr. Liu from the education college and she's very interested right now. We are trying to do a new project. Okay, this is their campus. And also it does something, I think it's important representing in the tribe. And the chief, they're doing a ceremony to the ancestors before our presentations. Even the group people are not so many, but I think they are all very interested in our issue. So we presenting our research funding in front of the tribal peoples to listen to their reaction and give us some feedback. We really learn a lot like how to pronounce the language perfectly because usually we don't put the right way to pronounce it. How to translate, and they say this is a good translation. We use another translation. And who is the people in the picture? Usually after we take picture we don't know, but they will tell us because they are neighbors. Okay, so we showing people taking the train. In the end I share my research material and publish papers to try that. I gave them all of our taking film and pictures. We did some ceremony, this is a warning. Dr. Towne, Dr. Can, Daniel, my assistant showing the film. Okay, this is, he put all the pictures, give to him and he's very happy and he is going to put it in the museum so everybody can copy. I think I should do it. Okay, findings, I think we can enrich and empower. The teachings of these indigenous cultures can in turn enrich the current teachings for all students and empower indigenous students in higher education sectors. Also we have some cooperation with outside campus. This is for Xi Ji, Ke Ji Daxue. I visit her and talk to her. We hope we can have each other. This is Awe's director. We ask him to come with our team about his experience of running a class and he also interested in what we are doing in our college. So we all have very good discussion for our research. Also we attend in the tribal activities. This is the bird hunting. This is me, this is my student, this is the elder people. This is the dog. They share the food. That's important because they hunt the bird and then they share food with each other, each group. They are relatives or good friends and they are very friendly because I don't know anybody of them but I eat a lot of good food. Then I present that in an inter-parate any world meeting. Then there are four of us presenting this. Okay. Also I made some teaching materials from the field. I have some self-made teaching materials. I refueled, I connected with the tribes. I understand indigenous culture better and I accumulated proof in my knowledge. So this is the PowerPoint. I don't think I show up here. Anyway, I have a lot of things to discuss. We have picture field. I use this teaching in my classroom. Okay. My conclusion, culture is dynamic and sustaining. Learning is additive, whole and enriching strength. Education is a century above love. The dialogue in the weaving of research theory and practices necessary in the changing world. Learned this from Paris and Eileen in 2017. And we find it's possible to find a model of integration which is not limited by current course classifications. So I try to move, moving beyond cultural responsive, cultural responsive teachings. We also need to emphasize and be aware of the subjectivity of indigenous people and the power of the culture. And I use McCarthy and Lee in 2014. Cultural sustaining revitalizing pedagogy. And they think we should try to erase the colonial influence because it's a really crucial component of language and cultural recognition. And we need to do the community-based education accountability. And we need to build it in indigenous education sobriety. So according to Paris and Eileen, pushing its theoretical boundary and growing its practice through case study and critique, we need to bring theory and practice together to offer a way forward reaching our goal of developing a more holistic and just future. So they call in for sustaining and revitalizing that which has over the centuries sustained us as communities of color struggling to make it. I use their idea to explain what we are doing because they emphasize the importance of 4R, respect, responsibility, relationship, responsibility. Now we add on a reflexive because we need to always think and criticize ourselves with the trial. And we always feel humble. We need to respect the elder people. Just like I interviewed the elder people. They say, professor, I don't know nothing. I don't graduate from the school because we are poor sometimes. Oh, you know everything. We don't know even though they say, how can I do for you? I've seen them so before in the beginning. And then you see what they are showing in their ceremony. They are really active or atrocious in that occasion. We know nothing about their culture. Okay, so I try to adopting a 4R model which in turn shifting away from the wisdom approach just like what I say from the beginning. I really think it's for us. Everything I get benefit, they also get benefit to learn from each other. We enrich our multi-cultural and Taiwan. Teachers and students from a divergent cultural background and disciplines can all work together to unpack the holistic knowledge of system of indigenous culture. Okay, so from the beginning, we are separate to try to make some connection. Right now you see from my materials we finally find some similarities and we can work on and try to make it bigger. And we can show indigenous cultural system in higher education and we are trying to form a cultural sustaining system in these safety circles on campus and try to make the tribes can be forever in higher education. In the lecture, you mentioned several times. It's quite interesting, but at the same time quite striking. You said, the student don't believe me. They believe the speaker because they are either Turuku or their armies, they are from, they are real, real thing, I'm not. So this is quite interesting and I suspect it's a challenging position to have as a Han scholar and academic to teach and engage and learn from the indigenous communities. So could you let us know, coming from a Han perspective and trying to, from the perspective of for us, that's brilliant title. And I wonder what's your experience and your take on this? You know, after 20 years, pretty amazing. Another question is, there are quite a lot of things, actually Adam mentioned this morning about the teacher's training. So you are actually talking about training teachers who really understand or at least coming from, that's the background, understand their own or understand other fields, culture and languages. So what's the most important thing that you think need to be done because you are now involved in this education, indigenous education committee, I think, for the MOE system, am I right? Actually I'm the MOE's indigenous political education policy member right now. And I have served for this position at least 10 years before in the very beginning, we called it the San Bao Joyway where I was a member over there. Then sometimes I am not invited, but this year I come back. So I think I've been there at least 15 years. So I saw a lot of changes. And I think your question is very, very important because as a non-indigenous scholar, I always ask why you are interested in these issues or what's your ethnic background? Why you are doing this? And some of the Han scholars, they just try to pretend they are part of indigenous people so they may be adopted by the tribal people. And that's part of what we usually do the way, but I didn't do that. Because I just think since I'm not indigenous people, I don't need to try to pretend I was there. And I find out my position as non-indigenous scholars, I can do a lot of things for not only for indigenous people but also for dominant cultures, people only Han people because they really don't understand indigenous cultures. So they have a lot of mistakes. So I have to educate them, but I cannot say educate because they may be not accepted. That's just why I say if I tell students, oh, the Amis culture is nice or something, they maybe think they should answer the question for my exam, maybe a good score, but they don't really believe it. That's why I invite the real person, we go to the real class and they show the evidence the indigenous people can do this, they are smart, they are intelligent, their knowledge is really amazing. So I learn a lot from them. They can teach me a lot of things, but in the beginning it's really a challenge because some of them they think they don't really know why they can go to the college's classroom. And usually for the first time why the indigenous elder people to my class, they reject it, they fail scale. So that's why I need to show the film first and encourage them. And I really bring the chief to my class and he really enjoy the process. So that's why I say we should do it step by step, it's take time, but we see the good result right now. That's for first question. The second question is for teachers education because I was the professor from the Hualien Teachers College at that time. I tried to open some courses like indigenous culture, indigenous education, nobody take my courses because it's not required courses and they are very busy for their own discipline training. They have to pass some exam so they can get their lessons, something like that. That's why I ate some teaching materials in the like social science research method. Or a cultural project I also taught over there because they need this class. And I remember the first time I showed the film, showing the indigenous culture, I asked the student, give me a feedback. One of the senior students just write down, ah, right now I know indigenous people, they do really have culture, oh my goodness. They are going to become teachers for the indigenous student. And most of our students, they will become the teachers in the remote area especially for indigenous elementary school at that time. I remember one student come back and tell us once she found out she has to teach in the elementary school and in the tribe, she had a bad dream. She said some people use a knife to try to catch her because they know nothing, they don't get any chance to learn indigenous culture, to know indigenous people. Even we still have indigenous students few, like three or four in the class because they have to come back to their own tribe, become teachers, so we have them. But their culture and their emphasis, they don't really get chance. Also the teachers over there, they don't really know very well. So that's why I think I used to be the director for the center of indigenous education 25 years ago. And I think it's not enough. So I moved to Donghua after it is founded and I try to set up indigenous culture because I think we need to have the long-term planning and get the support systematically so we can finish something, not just because of the government they have budget so we have more money this year, maybe next year, no, no, as we change it by parties so we don't get fund. I cannot do things like that. I cannot do indigenous culture like that. So I need formal colleges. That's why we set up the culture over there. Right now it's almost 2022 or three years. So we have seen a lot of changes and it's good. So do I answer your question? In the earlier part of your talk, you referred to, I've forgotten the name, it might have been Sufu. Ah, Sufu. Sufu's silent learning. Could you elaborate a little bit on what you mean by silent learning? It sounds a very interesting concept. Okay, and it's a Maori people, they teach how to speak Maori languages. They- In silence? Yeah, they have some, you see from the pictures they have some tours. So they have to- Silence didn't mean they don't talk. That means they don't really use traditional way to talk. They just use the tours. So we say something like, if this is pen, they maybe say something like this, and then transmit to different people and they learn from each other. Some people forget the pronunciation. They will teach them. And they emphasize the spiritual sharing and teaching and respect people repeat. And it's a kind of cooperative, sharing learning environment. So it seems to me to be a little bit like what is known as using rialia in more conventional language teaching. Rialia is when instead of just having dialogue, you for example, if you were selling something, you would have the bottle on every end of the water. And you have very little water. Okay, something like that. It's different from our tradition way to learn a new language because usually you just repeat again, repeat again. But this time they form a group, so they learn from each other. So they find out the logic by the teaching. They don't explain the grammar in advance. They just say, then you can see from the activities you find out your own logics, then you know how to speak their languages. I don't really know, I just remind people to teach. But I learned from what they are teaching. So I think it's interesting. My students always fear it's interesting because they like to do things learning by doing not just one way, one way teaching. The traditional way I'm teaching is like one where the students usually don't ask me questions. Like that here. Yeah, please. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm not hosting. Okay, sure. Okay, yeah. It just strikes me that's how a mother and father teach children, huh? Oh, okay. A mother to child. Thank you. Am I understanding correctly? Is it similar to how it's a natural way of learning? No, it's more natural. Actually, I'm not expert. So I just invite speakers to come and Dr. Tang, she's a linguistics, she designed the process. So I don't really know everything. So I mean more what we're talking about silent learning. Yeah, I don't really know silent teaching very well. Is it similar to mother to child? Oh, it's kind of different because they don't give the answer immediately. The students have to find out later. Yes, please. Yeah, I want to ask whether they have a traditional sports that plays an important role in the culture and whether music also has an important place in the culture and a role that it plays. Yeah, the sport, because maybe in their culture they don't think it's a sport. They just combine everything together just that we saw they won. But for their ceremony, they have some meaning, like the age transmission, the former age group. So they all process. That's why I think it's a holistic thing. We don't classify it like sports, music, and dance because dance and the scene, they are together. They're not separated, but if we have to teach in our classroom, indigenous music, indigenous dance, why they are separated? Also usually we do that things after the dinner or after the reunion parties. Just like the Lin Hong Zi, the Amis elder people, they try to classify their songs using different ways because they don't always fit for their situations. Is that okay? Thank you. Davies wants to ask the next question. Don't panic, hold your horses. At the start of an academic year, I'm always curious about why students take our classes. So one of the things you mentioned, and I also, Joyce mentioned this two weeks ago, was that something like half the students on the class have and then half are indigenous. And I was curious about whether the reasons that these students are taking the class are different. In other words, why are these hand students taking the classes? What's their motivation? Yeah, because my courses, there are two kinds. One is require courses, so they have to be there. Half of them, half of them are indigenous people, but I have the other courses, they choose free. So usually, to my observation, this is not really half of, but maybe indigenous people is more than hand people. And I think one hand people did challenge me. He said, hand people, why should I learn indigenous education? It's not related to me, but he's still in my class. And I said, why are you here? You are a good teacher. I think I know why I want you, oh my goodness. But then I told him, indigenous education, they cannot finish only by indigenous people. They need us. That's why I'm still here. I'm not a destroyer, I'm just kidding. Anyway, we are important because we need to tell a lot of hand people why the indigenous culture, they are important, what we can learn from them. Because if only indigenous people tell us their culture is nice, maybe it's not so perspective. But I am teaching hand people, it's perspective. Usually as a professor, I told tribal people your culture is variable. It's also perspective because they lose their confidence. Just like I said, I interviewed 90 years old lady. She told me from the beginning, Sensei, what does she want? None of them are going to learn, none of them are stable. That's none of them are going to learn. I don't mean, she said she didn't understand anything. But I said, you know everything. I don't know why I don't understand everything. And the chief who he went to my classes, she explained to my student, tribes. I only graduated from elementary school. I don't get good education. But because my family is poor, I have to encourage him in front of all my students. Oh, you're really smart. I would really like to learn a lot from you about Ami's culture. And he's also, he's a chief. He knows everything how to run a group or have a song. Because festival and corporate people together, it's smart and intelligent. Why is he saying nothing because he didn't graduate from university? I think this idea is very important because when I would have a paper present in Mainland China, I told people about it. I invited indigenous people to my classroom. I remember one Chinese minority PhD student just come after my presentation and bring my bag for me and say, oh, I already choose my relative who will be in my class. I think they will be very happy. Oh, at that time, so happy. I was, oh, they can do the same thing, yeah. Because then I can teach in the universities definitely different meaning for the tribal people. That means they get recognition by us. Yeah, right now they are only my guest speakers, but I'm trying to make them become really formal teachers. Like tribal language teachers. When I was in that time, I tried to hire tribal language teacher to my university. Most of the teaching evaluation members say they don't even graduate from high school. How can we, as a university preacher, how can you hire them? Oh, they know a lot of things we didn't really know. I have to persuade them because they are teaching something, nobody can do that. In the beginning, they said they need a real professor to cooperate with them. So they can teach their own language. But right now, we don't have that situation. So things are changing, yeah. But we need to get improvement. We need to put more effort. I'm just waving at Jules. Ah! It seems so. Okay, more questions. Hi, thanks very much for the talk. Your classroom seemed very exciting, you know. The students seemed very enthusiastic, you know, and engaged. So I have two questions for you, but I'll just ask one first. You can ask, too. Yeah. So it sounds to me like the basic premise is that Taiwanese indigenous cultures are either ignored or deprecated by the majority Han population. And therefore, the goal in your classrooms is to essentially point out that these knowledge systems have value, that these people have value, and to learn from those, the holistic knowledge system of indigenous cultures. Right. I get that. What it makes me wonder about is, I guess the premise seems to be like there's this thing out there and we're gonna bring this thing into the classroom, as opposed to question that thing and think critically about that thing and that holistic knowledge system, for example, right? It's undergone many, many changes over the years that I'm not so sure it exists. Indigenous cultures, like any cultures, have things historically and now that many of us would find problematic, right? Could be gender issues, could be certain cultural practices historically or now, whatever. And I understand why it's necessary to say we wanna learn from you, we wanna learn these things, but I'm wondering about the role of critical thinking in that about what's going on. For example, if you have a speaker come in and teaching about the language of a particular group, but not talking about the fact that, say, a majority of the people who identify it as that group don't speak that language, how do they perceive their ethnic identity, right? What are the problems inherent in that? How can we talk about that? Then it seems like there are questions that should be asked, you know? And I understand why someone wouldn't ask critical questions because one wouldn't want to fall into the trap of thinking, oh, I don't respect X, therefore I'm not going to say anything negative about X or point out that what X is about may not be 100% great or 100% consistent internally, but I wonder if the sort of overall cause is advanced by just saying, oh, sort of bowing down. You know what I mean to what other people have to say about themselves? Does that make any sense? I don't really understand the last part. What it means to be indigenous is a very difficult question. It's very complicated. Different people can have different responses. There are a lot of tensions in that question and in that answer, however you deal with it, right? But it sounds like the model of indigenous education that you're talking about is where somebody comes and says, this is what it is. And the point is for the students to respect that and understand that, that I'm wondering if that's a faithful representation of reality. Does that make sense? Well, that means what's your reality? If I may. Yes. Do you know what I'm saying? I wonder whether Adam, I don't know whether it's true or not, whether your question is really to raise an issue that and ask apart from these really idealistic and seemingly really nice idea about holistic knowledge about indigenous culture and people and the past, really should it be some sort of critical element also brought into this kind of education to make it as a more whole and more honest way of thinking about. Yeah. And because I always teach students about cultural relatives and so we don't really think, just like I say, we cannot over-execute the beauty of indigenous culture because it's maybe not the truth that you say reality. But the important thing is we should know what indigenous culture is. So we are not trying to simplify it, or we are not trying to make it over the, I mean, I think it's too nice and put everything into part of it. So, but savage mind, no more savage. Yeah, but I think it's out of date right now to use that way because just what you saw this morning, Dr. Awee, I think he's a very good evidence so the indigenous people can be so nice, so brilliant. So they can understand traditional and what we call modern knowledge system, they can integrate it together and he can do things well. I mean, we need a lot of successful model to show it. So that's why I always bring people, I just don't say my conclusion immediately because it's not so persuasive, we need evidence. And I find out from my own students, especially indigenous students, when they come into my college, actually their academic level is not really very high because they kind of, on behalf of the half are protected so they can come not from a regular entrance exam so they are coming, we use another way to evaluate. In the beginning, like their English is not that well, they cannot write Chinese very well, some of them. But after four years, when they graduate with my high students together, I think they are not really so big gap between them because we give them chance to learn, give them confidence, they will find their own way and they can become better than I think. That's why I like education because a lot of things are not made by me, I just stimulate and inspire them and they become good things. Of course, you say, we have some negative things like in the beginning we have some conflict. I remember in the first year our college started some hand people just knock my door and say, why the teachers teach the negative is about hand people in the classroom and they try to protest. I just say, if that's true, why should distribution not learn, we should know how to face it and how to negotiate and try to solve the problem, just not mention it is not the right. So I told her this morning, we are envy you because you already get the experience to be sterile, but you don't even need to go to the world to have the negative experience. You're the minority. Yeah, and right now my students, after graduate, they come back to tell us, they say they learn a lot about inter-cultural communication since they have the chance hand people in the college. So that's why I try to teach more about inter-cultural communication. I think that's our next step, move beyond only talk about indigenous culture. We need to apply to the inter-cultural communication. Even I can talk about a nation of politics using that culture's activities to help my students to face the changing world. Thank you. Anyone else has a question? That's all of us, then I have no hate on that. Okay, so I think that that previous question, this is a crucial element of the study of indigenous peoples and minority peoples in general, and that is that the entrance point of indigenous peoples into a dominant culture is itself the issue. They're not symmetrically placed. They're not equal as per the dominant culture. And is it undoubtedly the case that within indigenous communities, there's all sorts of in egalitarian practices that require questioning. The issue isn't whether they should be questioned. The issue is whether the first instance of our entry into their lives is that we dismiss their practices because their practices are many and multiple, but they haven't had any participation within wider society, and they are fundamentally unequal. So we wouldn't come into the Second World War and start questioning our practices towards homosexuality in England. We'd be, first of all, concerned about winning the war, and the same thing applies in minority publics. You don't enter into them when they've been asymmetrically placed, and first of all, go into all of the terrible things that they've been doing. Thank you. But I presume that Adam didn't really deny that. Sure, no, no, no, I... You came across that way. No, no, well then, that's a misinterpretation, but I apologize for not articulating better. It seems to me that having one static image in your mind of a culture that's negative and replacing with another static image in your mind that's positive is not necessarily an advance. And not to mention Taiwan has passed the very entrance point. And, okay, let's stop this. Let's go for Darryl and go for you. Okay, I'm sorry, I even barged in. Sorry, just one, please. Can I follow up with a comment on Adam's question? Because when he was asking it, I thought of Paul Barclay's book, Outcast of Empire, and he talks about the constructedness of tradition. And so if you bring somebody into the classroom and they demonstrate weaving, or you take your students to a weaving studio and they demonstrate weaving, you can't really ask them about the historical constructedness of this weaving tradition. How would they know? I mean, they just learned it as an apprentice. But that's something we can do as scholars, I think, to put these practices into historical contexts as best we have, and as best we can. I think the earliest we can go in the most, for the most part, is to the Japanese era. And it's basically the thesis of Barclay's book that a lot of what we take as our knowledge of indigenous peoples in Taiwan was researched done by Japanese ethnologists in, from about 1900 to the 1930s. And so this is kind of scary that these people, how well did these people know the cultures that they were researching? I mean, they were outsiders, they were edict in anthropological terminology. So I'm just wondering if following up on Adam's comments, whether you try to bring a historical perspective on the cultural practices that you're researching and the education of them passing them down. When they're passed down, they're going to presumably change. One of the cliches, I think, of indigenous people is that they don't have a sense of time. There's this essential tradition that never changes. But anyone in academia today kind of questions this as a basic reflex that there is no such thing as a cultural essence, and it's all changing from generation to generation. So I wonder if you bring such a perspective to bear in your own research. Thank you. Yeah, I can give you one example. I interviewed a 90-year-old gentleman and his wife talking about a historical event. And he gave me the answers totally different from what I saw from the literature, either writing by Japanese or by Han people. Most of the village people know that answer, but they don't write into books. Even the Army's teacher write a paper about that history shield or something wrong because she used literature review, but it's not really the reality. So that's why I think we need to know the history event from the indigenous point of view. And usually it's not a record. That's why I think it's very important. So I think my research haven't been done, so I'm writing a new project right now, so I'm very busy. We have to do more, like we have to do more field work and we have to work with, I think at least 90 or 80-year-old people over there so I can find out some things really different what we saw right now. That always gives me a surprise. But right now I can not write down because I only interview two people. I need more evidence before I say, I find a different discovery. I can't over-through all the records right now, but I can not write down. I need to do more research. So I think for a long time, even indigenous people that get educated, they learn from the formal education so they don't reform the dominant point of view. So they don't really learn from their own way. So when I start to supervise my indigenous students to write their thesis, I say, please write yours. Your culture is the first author. Just dance their culture or your culture. Because in the beginning I really feel frustrated because when they come back, they bring everything just from the literature review that can hand people write down because they don't have their own subjective way of thinking. But right now it's different. Right now my student, Xifu, he is a PhD student right now. He knows very well about Amis culture and he can explain Chinese very well and he also organized Amis Tribe School in Hualien. So I think they are different. They already know what the modern knowledge but also they know their own culture very well. So for us they are creating our culture. So that's why I think the indigenous culture is not only the place we transmit traditional culture. Also it's a place they create and they create their own culture on campus because they are together. So they learn from each other. Usually they are in their tribe. They are only Amis people only have Amis culture. But right now our classroom, we have people from different tribes that learn from each other. They form their own student association. So their creation, I think sometimes it's really amazing because also they learn from us. We give them a lot of professional way to teach or use. They can apply for it. Also we are integrated different disciplines. So they have not only as a part of view, they can have a social and sociologist. They can have the point of history. So they are smarter than we are because we are limited by one discipline. But my students, I think they are very creative and once they get the confidence and they get encouragement, we say we give them all time. Then they can perform very well. Because when they are doing the formal process like elementary school, middle school, they always don't get very good academic results. So they lose their confidence. One of my students told me when he discusses his culture in my class, it's his learning high point experience because he never experienced he's so important in the classroom. We provide that chance. So I think the result is more than I think the good result. So of course I have two positive thinking ways. Some people criticize, we should look at the back, look at the dark side or something. But I'm still very happy about the future. I saw the changes. Do you want to follow? Yeah, I just have a brief follow up. I had one of my best friends, Language Exchange. A language exchange. I wanted to learn the adic and he can speak it. And he said when he was a kid in junior high school he was in the Fangmiao Ben, where it's a class where you don't really learn anything. The teacher just has given up on you. They're non-academic. There's no, they'll become cops or whatever. No offense if anyone here is a police officer. And my friend actually became a cop. Because, I mean, his teachers had given up on him. And then he spent the next 20 years proving them wrong. And he ended up getting a PhD in indigenous literature and in indigenous languages at Furandashi. So I think there is a point to be made for just encouraging people. I'm good at it. As much as I love it. I'm good at it. My student told me. Thank you. Thank you. So many other questions have already been answered. But I think even from my own experience and most of the comments that you were telling us, the stories you were telling us about indigenous communities in Taiwan, I have experienced myself in indigenous communities that I have worked with in Mexico, with the Sabotec community. But I think when it comes to this type of debate that we have here in this space, I think that incredibly important to be critical is very important to bring up this critical element into a debate, especially in an educational system. And you're trying to train new educators for the future. There has to be this debate because if you don't have it in the classroom, where else are you gonna have it? And but at the same time, going back to my own personal experience and I had a particular ritual that I took part of in the Sabotec community in Mexico, in the mountains of Mexico. And they were performing a particular ritual or a dance ritual utilizing particular instruments for a funeral. And my question was why this particular song or why does it repeat? And when it started, when, what were the changes? And they were not able to answer the question. And they had a debate between themselves, sheep of the village came over, I asked the question again. And they spent about probably about half an hour debating and meeting themselves in their own language which I couldn't quite follow. Until eventually, they just didn't wanna say, we don't know, we really honestly don't know. I know that I learned it from my father, my father learned it from his father, we just do it. And we know, we're doing it right because it just follows, it performs the task that is meant to perform. So I think that of course those questions are incredibly important but there is a place and a time to make those questions. And I think had I pushed the question any further, it would have been the wrong time or the wrong place to push something that at that moment was not necessary. Coming back to the classroom, we can push those questions but there on the field, it will be telling them that what they've heard over and over and over for generations that they have no meaning and being indigenous has no value and their tools and their performances and visuals have no values. To once again say to them, it's really wonderful you're indigenous but how do you ask yourself what it really means and how do you become an indigenous person what does it mean to be indigenous in today's society? And that's a huge important question I think for the Taiwanese indigenous community. You've got 16 nations, 700 subcultures. I mean, what does it mean to be each one of those and what does it mean to be in a more Taiwanese society face with China right above you? What does it mean? I think that question is not easy one to answer. Thank you. So it's a comment, not a question. Yeah, I think it's a comment. Thank you. Any questions? Yes, please. So if I catch correctly when you spoke with one of the elders who said that she knew nothing about her own culture, did you guys speak in Japanese? Yeah, so I just wonder like what's their attitude towards Japanese versus the Gouyu versus their own indigenous language. Thank you. It's very interesting because in the beginning I knocked the door and I asked for an interview and there are some who open the door and ask me, do you speak English? I don't know. We don't understand Chinese, not because of the door. They asked the head to introduce me and tell them I know Japanese. So when I interviewed them and they asked me, are you Japanese? No, I'm not, but they can talk. So we talk to each other and this is also a very important experience for me because my Japanese is not so good as they are. So when I have to write down something, I'm not very confident. I say it's the right way to write it down. So I say, oh, yeah, they correct for me. And I just remember a long time ago we mentioned about those people we think they are illiterate. Because we use Chinese way, we think they don't know the world, but they don't depends on where they are. I thought, yeah. So I really reflected in doing my class, teach my students about this. Oh, but I find another interesting thing is when they talk to me, I think they use different way when interview people, I use Chinese to interview them because they treat me differently. Even I'm the same person. If I speak in Chinese, Mandarin, or I speak in Japanese, I got different result, yeah, different the way they treat me, yeah. Yeah, you're welcome back. Yeah, the last thing you just said, it is very true when you speak to somebody in their own language. It's very, very different from speaking in a language that is not their own. I've certainly found that. A question I want to ask is just for you on the last question. Is it just the older indigenous people who can speak Japanese or have they transferred that knowledge to their skill to their children? Two different things. Languages or skills? The skill of speaking the Japanese language to their children. Yeah, I think the children, like 60 years or 70 years old, they did, right now they are about that age and they can listen, they can understand, they can learn Japanese easier than every few people, but they cannot speak frontry or they cannot write down. We have a leg between them. So for the Japanese scholar, they notice the differences. So they say, oh, they cannot get benefit because right now the young people, they don't speak Japanese. So they have learned Chinese. So I think most of the young Japanese scholar, they can speak Mandarin very well or compared to their professors. I do notice that because they need to learn. Just make use of the last question. I think I have the pleasure of doing this. Can I ask a final question because you use quite a lot of indigenous education. So could you define what indigenous education means? Does it mean education for indigenous peoples or indigenous sort of education about indigenous knowledge, cultures and their people because they are actually very different things? Yeah, and I think 25 years ago I wrote a book, I mentioned that, the definition, your last one. Even last month I went to the MOE for the conference, for the meetings. Experienced the same thing, I asked them, do you think indigenous education is only for indigenous people or is it for all the citizens? And I got the answers for all the citizens. Oh, goodness. Okay, all done though. Can we put our hands together and thank Professor Wu. Thank you.