 Daily Tech News show is made possible by its listeners. Thanks to all of you, including Paley Glendale, Dr. X17 and Dustin Campbell. Coming up on DTNS, Meta made an AI that can win at the board game diplomacy, GPU demand is falling and the prices might follow, and Megan Moroney tells us why we're having so many of these darn tech layoffs. This is the Daily Tech News for Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Redwood, I'm Sarah Lane. I'm Scott Johnson. I'm the show's producer, Roger Chang. And joining us, longtime friend of the show and journalist, Megan Moroney. Welcome, Megan. Hey, Megan. Thank you. It feels like home here. Oh, yeah. Well, we want it to feel that way. Indeed. Indeed we do. We will start, as we always do, with the Quick Hits. Back in April of this year, Recorded Future reported that it observed a threat actor targeting the Indian power sector over the last two years. After seeing the report, the Microsoft Threat Intelligence Center began an investigation finding that attacks came through the BOA web server used by vendors across IoT devices and software development kits despite being discontinued in 2005. This opened the door to arbitrary file access and data leaks through known vulnerabilities. Some SDKs did patch those vulnerabilities, some of them anyway, but IoT vendors may not have included those in their firmware updates. Ah, workers at a Foxconn factory in Zhengzhou, China, one of the biggest places to make iPhones, if not the biggest, have been protesting that the company has not fulfilled its promises that it made to workers. This factory, like a lot of factories, especially in that region of China, had been operating in a closed loop to prevent the spread of COVID-19. They're doing zero tolerance in China still. That meant employees lived and worked on site. A lot of employees didn't like that in left a month or so ago, so to retain staff and even bring in some new staff, Foxconn promised incentives, including bonuses. But some employees said that they were protesting over delays in being paid those promised bonuses, some worries about control of the virus spread between infected employees and uninfected employees, and because of allegations that they just weren't getting fed, which is a big one. Ubisoft confirmed three recent PC game releases will arrive on Steam with Assassin's Creed Valhalla coming on December 6th, followed by Anno 1800 and Roller Champions at an unspecified date at this time. Ubisoft hasn't released games on Steam since 2019, so this is going to be exciting for some folks. At the time, it called Steam's 30% commissions unrealistic, seems as though tunes have changed. Here's a tune that didn't change. Qualcomm said phones with its new Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 chipset would hit the market before the end of the year, and they will. We have the first announced phone. Vivo's X90 Pro Plus features a 6.78-inch 120-hertz OLED display, runs Android 13, and has a Zeiss branded main rear camera with 1-inch sensor. If you want to be the first on your block to have a Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 inside your phone, pre-orders begin November 28th, shipping in China December 6th for $6,499 yuan. That's around $900 ton US. Upload VR reports that Valve received a patent for a new VR controller with a linear handstrap adjuster letting users let go of the controller as an additional control method in VR. It also includes tracking dots described as infrared LEDs. They can be tracked by the headset itself or Steam VR's external base stations. Headset-based tracking would be required if Valve released a standalone VR headset. It currently only offers the tethered index headset, so it might be a fun Christmas. Oh, is that on your list? Let's talk about some smart algorithms playing board games. Facebook started its AI department in 2013. Back then, it was called Facebook Artificial Intelligence Research, or FAIR. When Facebook changed its parent company name to META, the department became known as META AI. Earlier this month, you may have heard it made news for developing the Evolutionary Scale Modeling Algorithm. That significantly accelerated the ability to discover new ways proteins can fold. Yeah, so now near the end of this month, it's announced that Cicero has made it into the top 10% of people playing the board game Diplomacy at webdiplomacy.net. This is the latest in a string of milestones for machines being able to play games as well as, or better than, humans. For example, IBM's Deep Blue famously defeated Gary Kasparov back in 1997. Deep Mine's Alpha Go bested Lee Saddle in 2016. Deep Mine's Alpha Star got good enough to almost beat everybody at StarCraft 2 in 2019. And now META's Cicero can beat most people at Diplomacy. Well, each of these milestones as a step up in complexity is a great way to put it. Diplomacy is more complicated than StarCraft because you have to talk to actual humans. Diplomacy is a board game. It's very similar to risk, but without the dice, it requires players to make more strategic alliances with other players to win. And for a machine to do well at this, it must be good at both the strategy and the negotiations. So how did it pull that off, Tom? All right. Cicero combined a strategic reasoning engine. So similar to what they used in Alpha Go to play Go with a natural language model. The most famous of which you've probably heard of is GPT-3. They didn't use GPT-3 or Alpha Go. They had their own versions of those kinds of engines. The language processing part of it used a 2.7 billion parameter model pre-trained on text from the internet, then fine-tuned during more than 40,000 games against humans on webdiplomacy.net. And because they trained it on the internet, filters were put in place to ensure intelligibility and relevance and, you know, not offending the other players in the dialogue. They trained the model to also, the strategic part, accurately predict human interactions and choose effective policies to implement that would lead to it winning. Now, the model isn't perfect. They give some interesting examples of saying, please, invade Venice. And then someone saying, sure. And then them going, I'm against invading Venice. And then the human player being very confused. But it has the advantage of not playing emotionally. So it never gets mad, never does things purely out of revenge, nor does it annoy players with unnecessary ruthlessness. So it's great at a board game. But Sarah, that isn't the be all end of the all. What else could this thing be used for? Yeah, I think a lot of people would ask the exact same questions. The ability to pair a strategic model with natural language could be useful in the gaming world for all sorts of things like making non-player characters, a.k.a. NPCs, more dynamic while providing quests and instructions to human players. So the NPCs could know you and chat with you and not just be reading from a script and feel more lifelike. It could also be used by intelligent assistants to better anticipate what you need to know during a conversation going back and forth. This could be a boon for the series and the echoes and the Google assistants and the you know who, who shall not be named of the world. And of course, somebody will try using this for bad things. Warning always applies. But if you want a closer look at the system, Meta AI published the code on GitHub under an MIT open source license. Man, if I was Facebook, if I was the Meta folks, I would be encouraging Apple, Amazon and Google to use this open source and then offering them at a very reasonable fee, consulting on implementing it in their voice assistance. I mean, what a great way for Meta to just transfer itself into being an enterprise level service provider. It could be their AWS. What would be the reason do you think that that isn't already happening? It might happen. It's too early in the game. That's probably the only reason it hasn't happened yet. That's my guess. They might not do it though, because I know they just got rid of the portal, but they might be thinking, no, we want to keep it all to ourselves. Well, your resident Wednesday game nerd always wants to think about the gaming implications here. Obviously, some of the story even has to do with the game. But in specific, this talk about NPCs, non-playable characters in a game world that could interact with you in the most unique possible way compared to how it would interact with other players and they would get their own unique experience. This is a little bit of a holy grail inside the game's world and the design world. Very, very hard to find a way to do this well. Nobody's really done it up till now. There's been some tricks here and there to make it seem sort of, you know, having a more in-depth thing, but players figure out ways to break it. And maybe they will with this too, but I'm most excited about those implementations when those interactions, especially in role-playing games, become that dynamic. And organic, right? Oh, yeah. Very organic. Organic in every single person's case. And then based on your exact actions, those conversations can branch off into new areas that somebody else maybe did something identical just prior to that will not get that same interaction. These kinds of possibilities are really exciting for, I think, for both gamers and just people in general who want to see where this tech goes, but I love those ideas. I hope that gets... You always hear about they're playing against games. I want to see them playing outside of games or through games. That's the next step for me. Yeah. What about education too? I'm a regular Duolingo user and Duolingo is very unresponsive, right? It has its track and if you interact with it on that track, it works, but it never talks to you. What if it could use this to be like, oh, what are you having a problem with here? And then you could say, I don't understand why this word always comes this way at the end and it would understand that and be able to give you an answer or feed you an answer. I could see a lot of applications like that too. Oh, yeah. That's the thing is I don't think there's any one use case for this where it's like, well, this would be great for A and B. Instead, I think we have an alphabets worth of possible implementations across consumer products, across educational products. I think even just the way we consume information and data could be altered by this. It's just... Tom said this sometime, I think this morning on TMS, he said something about the fact that... And as usual, there's this caveat that some of this can be used in ways that are maybe nefarious or whatever, but I love the early time for these innovations because they make me only think of the positive stuff. And I have none of those negatives in my head. I do hope somebody's thinking about that and working on those ethics. And that's part of this process. I can only hope that because I can't control it. But yeah, I say bring on all the good implementations and maybe not the bad ones. The thing to remember about MetaAI is that it actually has been doing this for a long time and it's got a code of ethics and stuff. So it is working that sort of thing into it more. All right, let's talk GPUs. According to John Petty Research, GPU shipments fell 25.1% in Q3 compared to last year. That's a 10-year low of 75.5 million shipments. So why the drop? One reason is that PC makers aren't selling as many PCs. So if you're not making as many PCs, you don't need as many GPUs to go in them. Another reason is that many consumers have put off buying a new GPU. They're waiting for that next generation of cards to hit the market. Also, cryptocurrency miners stopped buying GPUs as the market slowed and Ethereum switched to proof of stake, which doesn't rely on GPUs crunching numbers. Other companies have said that problems with China's lockdowns, US sanctions, and general economic things like inflation are factors as well. So there probably are a multitude of factors. But whatever the reasons, the drop in PC maker demand is the most unexpected of those. Q3 is usually when OEMs stock up on parts to make models for back-to-school sales and holiday sales. But the build-up of inventories during the chip shortage and then the decline in consumer demand meant that there was no Q3 build-up. So who does this affect exactly? Yeah, obviously it's bad news for Nvidia and AMD because they make a lot of money off of selling you a GPU. But you might be surprised to find out it's not as bad news for Intel. And not because they don't make GPUs. Intel isn't competitive at the high end of the GPU market, but it has the largest market share for CPUs. So because of integrated graphics and bundling and other reasons, it also has the largest market share for GPUs and Intel raised its market share in Q3 by 4.7% to 72% of the PC GPU market. Because the lower end wasn't affected as badly. Nvidia's share of the market dropped to 16%. AMD's fell to 12%. It's also bad news for unofficial resellers. Or as you all call them, scalpers. Or I hate you. Tom's hardware took a look at eBay and found that sales of the RTX 4080 are lukewarm at best. eBay shoppers seem to be either poppin' for the top end, RTX 4090, or not spending their money at all. And with soft demand at high supplies, Nvidia is rumored to be considering a price drop, leaving resellers unable to get back what they paid for the cards if that happens. Really, really interesting turn of events from where we were at this time last year. Oh my gosh, you couldn't have said it any better way. We weren't having this conversation a year ago. We had the exact opposite conversation on the show and everywhere when it came to GPUs. It was a problem of not being able to get them at all and there were a litany of reasons, some of which you mentioned that are no longer an obstacle. It's weird to be on the other side of it talking about this in this way. But I also think there's a little bit of something else going on here. And this may not be as effective as I think it is because we just got these announcements. But the 4090s are not cheap. They are very expensive. 4080s and 4090s for that matter. As a result, I think, at least on the Nvidia side, that automatically carves down who's going to be able to get this thing. And there are truly hard cores who are going to get every iteration of every GPU that ever happens and that's just the way it'll be, same with the AMD side. But I think that there's a large swath of gamers in the middle who want something good but are pretty much okay with last year's results who are going to set this one out. I'm one of them. And I'm usually someone who's eyeing new video cards pretty regularly just to kind of see what's going on. But you know what, that 3080 is running great. I've yet to throw something at it can't handle and I just don't feel the reason. I have to imagine there are a bunch of people like me. And it's just ironic that last year, I felt like when I was holding my 3080, I was holding the Holy Grail itself. And Indiana Jones is going to come in the room anytime and try to take it from me because it's so hard to get. You can kill one and all of that. It's the GPU of a carpenter. Exactly right. It really was that way though, about a year ago. It was, it really was. If you had something like this, people would say, you can sell them and make a bunch of extra money on top of them. These scalpers were a real threat back then. Like it was bad. And now you're telling me that the opposite is true, that there will be potentially a glut, maybe even lower prices. Yeah. I mean, it feels like a reasonable reset to me. Maybe this is just kind of a pullback. It was bound to happen. Right. It's, you know, the supply and demand. Basic Econ 101. But we've had a few strange years. If all of the things Scott said about individual choice were still true and the PC market was strong, you wouldn't be having this story though. Like that's the thing that I keep reminding myself is, the individual market is a significant chunk. But what really tanks this is the fact that these aren't going into those desktop and laptop PCs. In fact, laptop GPUs were down even more than PC laptops. You know, what's interesting is this is all on the heels of relatively recent announcement of new Intel higher end GPUs. I forget the models or the names or I'd bring them up, but we talked about right here on the show. And this is the first year it feels like they have made a new push in that direction. And I don't know if they could read the tea leaves or something, but this is probably perfect timing for Intel. As you mentioned, they've already got a vast superior market share, given the fact that, you know, low end GPUs are in all these Intel machines with integrated graphics. If they're going to actually get into that other market and be less expensive than the competition, this is a time for a receding of the overall market, but a growth for Intel by being a little bit low ball and being good enough for most buyers. So I would look to Intel as kind of coming out of this a winner either direction, unless PC sales really, really tank kind of across the board in some really hardcore fashion. I think this might be, end up being good for them in that market. Roger reminds us it's the Intel arc. Thank you. Arc series. That is correct. Folks, what do you want to hear us talk about on the show? There's a great way to let us know. Head on over to our subreddit, dailytechnewshow.reddit.com. Do it now. Well, we've been hearing about a lot of tech company layoffs. HP was the latest announcing plans to lay off nearly 10% of its workforce. Big company impacting up to 6,000 jobs. That's just the latest in layoffs from more than 1600 tech companies. At least that layoffs.fyi has tracked. Meta, Amazon, booking.com, Cisco, Uber, just to name the five largest so far this year. But what's behind the layoffs and what can a laid off tech worker expect to face? Megan, thank you for being willing to share not only your journalistic expertise at analyzing this story, but also the fact that you just went through a layoff and you're willing to talk about it. Are all tech companies going through this? Or are we just seeing some big names? And how many people is this affecting? Well, I think at this point, it's over 20,000 tech employees that are affected by this. And I think it usually goes with the big tech companies go first. It was the same thing about sending employees home, bringing them back after COVID and RTO. All the big tech companies wait and see who's going to go first. Yeah, I mean, Meta was the biggest. I think, and that was just a couple of weeks ago. Stripe Salesforce was huge. And these companies have never, especially Meta, they've never laid off people. They've just been in growth mode forever. So it's pretty shocking. But everybody's not going through it. But the big companies kind of are a bellwether for what comes next. Yeah, I've heard people. I've heard a lot of conspiracy theories about how they're just doing it because others did it. And the fact is, if only one company did it, and everybody else was doing fine, I doubt you'd see the cascading layoffs. But there is some positioning. There's some jockeying for messaging in there. I get that. Are there examples of companies still hiring in the tech sector? Absolutely. I mean, Apple is one. They're still hiring software engineers. They're still, you know, Uber is still. Air table, Atlassian, Envoy. Especially companies like Envoy, where they're a small startup, they focused on getting people back in the office, hot desking, that sort of thing. Those smaller companies that are really based on hybrid work, they're still hiring because hybrid work is the future. Everybody's not going back to the office. So any technology that helps that, I think those people are still hiring. It almost feels like the opposite of what we've seen in the past, where the big companies, the bigger the company, the more, I mean, makes sense if you got more employees, you're going to lay off more employees, even if it's the same percentage. But you're seeing big companies do this, whereas smaller companies and startups may be less affected. Why do you think we're seeing that? And why do you think we're seeing it now? Do you have an insight on that? I do. And you know, I mean, this is, there's been lots of theories on it. I mean, I think the most accepted one is just to look back at like 2008 to the recession, to like, you know, the housing crisis. And what followed that was just like really, really like low interest rates, which gave people money to then pour, like VCs money to pour into whatever they wanted to do. Like, and we saw this same thing, you know, you and I did when we covered the.com bubble and burst. But it's just like, okay, yeah, I've got some money. That looks good or that, that looks good. That looks nice. Like, you know, just whatever it is there, they're pouring money into these companies. And then, you know, there's, I think, I think this is called like the millennium benefit where it's like companies like Uber and Airbnb, like basically subsidized because they wanted to grow. So they would just like, you know, Ubers used to be basically free. Like they were so cheap for so long because they just wanted to grow the company. And so now you're just seeing the other side of that. You're seeing these companies over hiring and, you know, maybe it would have worked out if we hadn't had the pandemic, like maybe, like, you know, maybe that would have a good bet and we would have seen things differently. But now it's just like we're in this, you know, you hear all everybody always saying we're doing hiring freezes and layoffs because of like the macro economic climate, right? That's what everybody says because it sounds very smart. But it's true. It's like now they kind of have to do something. They overhired. So they're not like laying off all of these really experienced software engineers necessarily, but like all the recruiters because you don't really need them anymore when you don't have all these open jobs. And they're laying off, you know, some of the marketing people, just people that maybe they didn't really know what they were doing there in the first place and commanding these huge high salaries. Those are the people that I think are worried at this point and should be. And when you're, well, when you're in growth, you know, slash scale mode, it's like you do need those jobs. Those are really important jobs to have. When things start to slow down, there are certain tasks that just don't need to happen anymore or can't, you know, are not afforded. Yeah. It's interesting from a game's perspective. We're going to look into this a little bit and they haven't experienced or at least right now, not experienced the same kind of layoffs. They're experiencing a bit of a cresting, if you will, but no big massive layoffs. It's already an industry known for being very temporary and you'll come in and do a bunch of crunch and then we're letting you go and you'll go somewhere else and do the same thing and rinse and repeat. But as a portion of the tech industry, it's interesting to see that be a little more leveled off. And I kind of thought it would get harder given that the pandemic also represented a whole lot of boons for the games industry in downtime, where people had to work from home. People were buying consoles like crazy. You couldn't get them for a while there, like the same sort of shortages and stuff cropped up there. And I thought maybe this would be more hit, but it turns out it seems to be doing just fine. At least for now, like I said, it feels like it's going up at the top. It's teetering a little. I hope we don't see massive layoffs there, but it'll be interesting to see if there's a knock on effect here across the industry. If this would be localized to the kinds of things Megan's talking about and not, you know, not get too bad overall. Megan, you mentioned the dot com era, and you and I and Sarah all worked together covering all of those layoffs. I remember looking at Eft Company first thing in the morning at tech TV, being like, is it us yet? Sometimes it was, in fact. So first of all, is there a Gen Z version of Eft Company? And second of all, how does this compare? Is this bigger? Is it worse? Is it the same as the dot com era? I think that it is a little bit bigger at this point. And it's a lot of different like skills that these jobs, like it's just the more highly skilled people at this point, what we're doing. Like there wasn't just like a ton of like people working in AI like you were talking about before back then. But so there still are skilled workers that are going to survive this for sure. But and and I think everyone's going to survive it. Like I think what I haven't even really talked about is like the crypto crash, which is going along with that too. And so that is like it's not, it's not over. Like I think we, I hear a lot of people saying like, you know, this, this is, you know, the boom is over forever. Like this is irreparably changed. And I don't think, I think the people were saying that too. There was a New York Times article that I found from 2001. It was dot com is dot gone. And the dream with it basically saying like the internet was dead in 2001 that turned out to not be true. I think there are some things back then that were ahead of this time. I mean, I feel like in some sense tech TV was a little bit ahead of its time. I was like, well, free YouTube. So like we, you know, we remember like covering people that talked about streaming. I don't even know if we call, we probably didn't call it streaming at that point, but like, you know, it was a little bit ahead of its time. And so, uh, and things like web van, like, you know, at the time it's like, oh, we'll never, we'll never order groceries. Like web van was like the, you know, the grocery ordering on the internet. And everyone was like, ha, ha, ha, what a dumb idea. And it's like, well, obviously like it was a good idea. It's just the idea it's time had not come yet. So I imagine there's going to be a lot of things like that. Like we're just not ready for X, Y, Z. I don't know exactly what it is. But I think, you know, web van is a good example. You know, now you, you know, you said, yeah, it was this company and they would deliver groceries and it just was a spectacular failure. And, and used as sort of this sort of like champion of what not to do. And people would be like, but we all order grocery. Like why, why didn't it work again? It just, you know, it was, it wasn't, well, the model may have been flawed. I didn't work there. So, you know, who knows what was going on behind the scenes. But, but yeah, the idea of what works depending on how people are living their lives does change. You know, give it a decade. And don't forget, you know, the, the dot com, those dot com companies that are, that, that totally failed when the internet died in 2000, like Amazon and Netflix and Google, you know, we forget those are dot com era companies. Not all of them went out of business. So some of them became the biggest companies in the world. So, so yeah, who knows what, what the version of that is now. Well, thank you, Megan, for, for helping us understand that a little more. Well, thank you for, for welcoming me. I have a little bit of time on my end since I was laid off. So, so yeah, stay tuned for the end of the show for how to get into Megan for sure. Here's my PayPal account. Let's check out the mailbag. Let's do it. This one came in from Stealth Dave. This is a great email. Thank you so much for writing in Stealth Dave. He wrote in about our recent chat on wearables with heart monitoring capabilities. You know, more and more that these are devices that people might be able to wear to keep them healthy. Dave says a few months ago, I wound up in the ER with a bad case of food poisoning. Given my symptoms and also my age, they run an ECG on me to rule out any problems with my heart. The computer that analyzed the results on site didn't find any signs of heart attack, but it recognized a pattern in the sinus rhythm consistent with brugata syndrome and recommended I see a cardiologist as soon as possible as the symptoms of brugata include fainting and sudden death. Not good. Want to take care of that. Dave says my cardiologist confirmed the diagnosis after a flurry of appointments and a bunch of tests. I received the good news last week that I'm going to live, but not before I purchased a Samsung Galaxy Watch 5 to help me monitor my condition. My cardiologist still relies on the full ECG machine, but looking at the readings from my smartwatch, I can see the same signs that he pointed to that indicate I do indeed have the syndrome. Dave says in my case, it was a hospital ECG reading that led to my diagnosis, but I can't help but think in the near future, smartwatch owners will be able to upload an ECG reading, have it analyzed in a similar system, and then find out that maybe you should go see that cardiologist sooner rather than later. Yeah. What a great, we always hear the example of like, oh, I dramatically, I had the watch on or I had to put it on someone else and took their ECG. But this is the opposite of like, I realized when I got an actual ECG how useful it would be to have that monitoring me all the time. Amos, our producer was talking about how he was wearing his watch and military doctor was like, hey, do you wear that a lot? I want to see your records. That's going to help. Like we're getting into that world where this is normal. And yes, these don't replace the bigger, more sophisticated, more accurate versions, but they can help a doctor or help you kind of have a hint about what's going on to know whether you need to use one of those bigger, more accurate machines. Yeah, 100%. It's a great new direction. I'm waiting for the first person to say, I biffed it today and it called the police and everyone showed up at my house. Like the thing with the crash detection. That's the one I kept worrying about. Like we were going to see something weird out of it. So far, I don't think there's been anything too crazy. It's been okay. Yeah, it seems like there's more folks saying, wow, glad I had this instead of the opposite of, oh, my watch called the police. I can't believe my watch warned me about a heart condition. What a croc. Well, you know what isn't a croc? That is one Scott Johnson. Scott, glad to have you back on the show. Glad you're feeling better. Let folks know we're worried to keep up with your work. That sounds great. If you'd like to be part of my post COVID world, then join me, won't you? For more video game talk on a little show I host, a little show I host, that's correct, called CORE. We record every week, usually on Thursdays, but we're doing it Friday. We have a lot to talk about. This big Sony agreement potentially to take call of duty from the new owners of the product, and whether or not they're behind that idea. Lots of stuff like that. Big industry stuff, games we're playing and everything in between. Check it out at frogpants.com. Also, big thanks to Megan Moroney for being on the show with us. Megan, so good to see you. And thanks for sharing your knowledge. Let folks know where you are up to these days. Well, as soon as I figure out Mastodon, I will be there at Megan Moroney. I got to find a server. Someone tell me which one to join. But until then, I'm on Twitter at Megan Moroney and Instagram at Megan Moroney and MeganMoroney.com. That's where I am, Megan Moroney. So, find me, stay in touch. Just pick a server. You can move later if you don't like it. Exactly. The world is your oyster on Mastodon, but it is kind of confusing. Trust me, you're not alone. Thanks to our brand new bosses, Sergei and Alex, they both just started backing us on Patreon and we love to thank our new bosses. Thank you, Sergei. Thank you, Alex. Oh, it was Larry and Sergei. I was like, is these the founders of Google? No, these guys are way better than the founders of Google. Sergei and Alex, that's the new version. Love them. Yeah, Google who? Never heard of them. Patrons, you know what to do. Stick around for the extended show, Good Day Internet. We roll right into it when DTNS wraps up. But just a reminder, you can catch our show Monday through Friday at 4 p.m. Eastern 2100 UTC. Find out more at DailyTechNewShow.com. This week is a little bit different because we're off for the U.S. holiday tomorrow and Friday, but we're back on Monday with Bodie Grimm talking about EVs and first responders. Talk to you then. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at FrogPants.com. Prime and Club helps you have enjoyed this program. Is there a new version of EFT Company? I don't know. Maybe they're still doing it. Blinds. You know. What? Credits. Oh, I did forget. See, this is the problem. Well, and I said titles, you're like, what? Nope, this is the problem with me saying I won't forget. Weird week. Usually we make it purple. It's also Wednesday. Yeah. All right. Here we go. Just leave this in. This will shame me into never forgetting again. This week's episodes of DailyTechNewShow were created by the following people, host producer and writer Tom Merritt, host producer and writer Sarah Lane, executive producer and booker Roger Chang, producer, writer and host Rich Strafolino, video producer, Twitch producer Joe Kuntz, technical producer Anthony Lamos, Spanish language host, writer and producer Dan Campos. News host, writer and producer Jen Cutter. Science correspondent Dr. Nicky Ackermanns, social media producer and moderator Zoe Dedderding. Our mods, Beatmaster, W.S. Goddus One, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Godorama, Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stevens, AKA Gadget Virtuoso and J.D. Galloway. Modern video hosting by Dan Christensen. Video feed by Sean Way. Music and Art provided by Martin Bell, Dan Looters, Mustafa A, A-Cast and Len Peralta. A-Cast adds support from Tatiana Matias, Patreon support from Dylan Harari. Contributors for this week's shows included Rob Dunwood, Scott Johnson and Megan Maroney. Our guests this week were Robert Herron and Andrea Jones-Roy. And thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at FrogPants.com. Vitamin Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.