 Okay, I think I know everybody, but for those watching in the future on video I'll introduce myself anyway. I'm Mel Hauser I use she they pronouns and I am the executive director at all brains belong. I'm very excited tonight is our first ever book chat and don't worry we didn't expect anybody to have read the book. So we have we've we've we've prepared to be able to talk about the concepts of the book, because, like anything here there's no right way to participate so turns out you can come to a book chat and engage with it, even without having experienced the book ever before in somewhere or another. So, all month long, we've been talking about urgency culture and urgency culture lays out every day and everyday life as as as one of the many consequences of oppressive power dynamics and shame is another one of those consequences. We're going to put these together, we have a book about this. So we're going to be talking about Bernie Brown's book. I thought it was just me, but it isn't. And before we do that. All forms of participation are okay here you can have your video on or off if it's on we do not expect anything of you you certainly don't need to look at the camera. You can walk you can fidget you can stem you can eat you can have kids and pets and whomever climbing all over you. And you can communicate however you're most comfortable either on meeting and using mouth words typing in the chat box gesturing whatever works for you. If you have a word about language you'll hear myself and maybe other people using identity first language for example I am autistic. I'm not a I am I do not experience myself as a person with autism autism is part of my identity so I'm autistic. So in case that's new for folks that might be something to hear. But everyone is welcome to use the language about themselves that speaks to their own identity. And access needs are really important. Related to that we want to be able to create a safe space and part of that is naming the ground rule that today is for education purposes it's not medical advice. This comes from some of the regulars who attended brain club a few weeks ago, added some that extra values as part of the anti urgency culture here. In order to queue safety for a broad range of communicators we want to give space and time to let, let people's comments land and be processed before jumping on to the next thing. So, kind of moving beyond taking turns talking really just to facilitate the quality of the interaction and facilitate the community building so we might throughout tonight we might take pauses. After after after someone has shared. Okay, that's a bit of access. If you'd like closed captioning, it is enabled already just need to toggle it on if you'd like to use it, either by clicking the lab transcript closed captioning icon, or if you don't have that, try the more dot dot dot and choose show subtitles. You can also do the same hide subtitles if you want to turn them off. Urgency culture and shame. Shane, Renee Brown defines shame as the profoundly painful negative experience of feeling defective broken deficient. And often, when something happens, and our reaction is to is to become severely dysregulated. A lot of times later on when we've processed the things leading leading up to this. A lot of times, the path between the event and the reaction. There's a lot of shame that that that that we really dig deep. Often when we are triggered by something, it may be because the story that we're telling ourselves relates to an old message, often a message a narrative that was laid down like in early childhood, for example. So, in this book, I thought it was just me but it isn't. Renee Brown offers as she describes like six years of research that she's a shame researcher, and she she shares what she's learned in this research, and ultimately a way out and we'll get to that in a few minutes. But I think, Lizzie I think what we should do is let's play our video clip. Before we before we do anything else. Alright, I'm going to stop share, and you can do your thing. Are you using your new computer. Is it that's made in voyage at brain club. Not yet. About six weeks into this research I ran into this unnamed thing that absolutely unraveled connection in a way that I didn't understand or had never seen. And so I pulled back out of the research and thought I need to figure out what this is. And it turned out to be shame. And shame is really easily understood as the fear of disconnection. Is there something about me that if other people know it or see it that I won't be worthy of connection. The things I can tell you about it it's universal. We all have it the only people who don't experience shame have no capacity for human empathy or connection. No one wants to talk about it and unless you talk about the more you have it. We all underpinned this shame this I'm not good enough, which we all know that feeling I'm not blank enough I'm not thin enough rich enough beautiful enough smart enough, promoted enough. The thing that underpinned us was excruciating vulnerability. This idea of an order for connection to happen, we have to allow ourselves to be seen, really seen. And you know how I feel about vulnerability. I hate vulnerability. And so I thought this is my chance to beat it back with my measuring stick. I'm going in. I'm going to figure this stuff out. I'm going to spend a year. I'm going to totally deconstruct shame. I'm going to understand how vulnerability works and I'm going to outsmart it. So I was ready and I was really excited. As you know it's not going to turn out well. So I could tell you a lot about shame, but I'd have to borrow everyone else's time. But here's what I can tell you that it boils down to. And this may be one of the most important things that I've ever learned in the decade of doing this research. My one year has turned into six years. Thousands of stories, hundreds of long interviews, focus groups. At one point people were sending me journal pages and sending me their stories. Thousands of pieces of data in six years. And I kind of got a handle on it. I kind of understood this is what shame is. This is how it works. I wrote a book. I published a theory, but something was not okay. And what it was is that if I roughly took the people I interviewed and divided them into people who really have a sense of worthiness. That's what this comes down to a sense of worthiness. They have a strong sense of love and belonging and folks who struggle for it and folks who are always wondering if they're good enough. There was only one variable that separated the people who have a strong sense of love and belonging and the people who really struggle for it. And that was the people who have a strong sense of love and belonging believe they're worthy of love and belonging. They believe they're worthy. And to me the hard part of the one thing that keeps us out of connection is our fear that we're not worthy of connection. Was something that personally and professionally I felt like I needed to understand better. So what I did is I took all of the interviews where I saw worthiness, where I saw people living that way and just looked at those. What do these people have in common? And I have a slight office supply addiction, but that's another talk. So I had a Manila notebook, a Manila folder, and I had a Sharpie. And I was like, what am I going to call this research? And the first words that came to my mind were wholehearted. These are kind of wholehearted people living from this deep sense of worthiness. So I wrote at the top of the Manila folder and I started looking at the data. In fact, I did it first in a four-day, very intensive data analysis where I went back, pulled these interviews, pulled the stories, pulled the incidents. What's the theme? What's the pattern? My husband left town with the kids because I always go into this kind of Jackson Pollock crazy thing where I'm just like writing and going and kind of just in my researcher mode. And so here's what I found. Do you love Gantt charts? Here's how easily you can build one and click it. Let's map out. What they had in common was a sense of courage. And I want to separate courage and bravery for you for a minute. Courage, the original definition of courage when it first came into the English language, it's from the Latin word cur, meaning heart. And the original definition was to tell the story of who you are with your whole heart. And so these folks had very simply the courage to be imperfect. They had the compassion to be kind to themselves first and then to others because as it turns out, we can't practice compassion with other people if we can't treat ourselves kindly. And the last was they had connection and this was the hard part as a result of authenticity. They were willing to let go of who they thought they should be in order to be who they were, which is you have to absolutely do that for connection. The other thing that they had in common was this. They fully embraced vulnerability, believed that what made them vulnerable made them beautiful. They didn't talk about vulnerability being comfortable, nor did they really talk about it being excruciating. As I had heard earlier in the shame interviewing, they just talked about it being necessary. They talked about the willingness to say I love you first. The willingness to do something where there are no guarantees. The willingness to breathe through waiting for the doctor to call after your mammogram. The willing to invest in a relationship that may or may not work out. They thought this was fundamental. Thank you, Lizzie. Just to catch us up in the chat, Kat says, I think it's important to find our people who give us the message that we are worthy to counter the people who give us the message that we're not. Absolutely. And I don't think it's like a linear thing like we are on this journey of like linear progression to like get out of shame and then we're out of shame. All like I'm in a shame all day. It's just match it's it's it's just a process of becoming more aware. Kelly says that Bernie Brown refers to shame as the fear of disconnection and then goes on to explain that the only people who don't experience shame have no capacity for connection. So from this it can be logically assumed that Brown views those who don't experience fear of disconnection as having no capacity for human empathy. Yeah, I mean that's like. It's, and that seems like a, you know, just a logical fallacy right so and, and Kelly says that it feels like she's trying to police how people are supposed to feel and what it means to be human. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, I think like, like anything else it's like the. You build this mosaic of things that that help you help you pursue meaning or construct meaning or, you know, things to think about things to anyway. There's like things that the mic come up tonight that like don't land they don't land and that's absolutely okay they're just not going to land. Okay, it was interesting so Sarah and I took us actually it was hard to find the clip that we wanted to play tonight there were a lot of clips that we very much did not want to play tonight. So it's, it's not, it's not, it's not the whole story but it might be a part of the story for some people. And somebody has said it's the noticing that creates healing right the purpose is a framework for noticing narratives, we might call them brain rules, and by that we don't mean like brain rules like the brain exercises book we mean like the cultural assumptions that are human constructed. So it's, it's, it's, it's just like, it's like anything else it's a it's, it's offering work it's not the framework and we're not actually even endorsing this framework but for some people there will be things that come up tonight that might be helpful if they're new. So, for purposes of this, this, this book chat, we plucked out some highlights to guide some conversation. And first I'm going to read Angie's comment. My notes from the book so far. We feel shame and we think self esteem in shame, we feel alone exposed deeply flawed reiterating shame as the fear of disconnection, the culture of shame driven by fear and blaming disconnection, the as an incubator for perfection and addiction. I'm going to save some of these golden nuggets, Angie and actually, I'll read them and I think I'm going to read them and then I'm going to reread them because they're so deep. And this might be a good, good place for pause after this. It can be shaming when we think there's an easy solution to a complicated problem. The distinction between guilt versus shame in guilt. I did something bad versus shame. I am bad. Yeah, yeah. And when, when we are in a place of shame, we may be more likely to attack and humiliate others. Yeah. Yeah. And she says, yeah, I've always struggled with her with her brain Brown says I relate sometimes and I struggle like I find some of the narratives promote a single viewpoint and a privileged one wants us to be vulnerable but that is something that can put a target on a lot of people. No, that's exactly right like only an individual can determine when it is safe to be vulnerable. And we don't want to courtically override and I think that you're absolutely right that when there's like this. The message of like, the only way to be a person is to be vulnerable. Then that that doesn't fit right that doesn't fit because really the truth is there's no right way to be a person. And truly in some environments, it is absolutely not safe to be vulnerable. I think it's a shame feels like a zooming out and a generalization of guilt almost I wonder. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that I think it's important that we think about how do we talk like what, what, what is a help like what is the way, and there's not going to be like the way like away what what are some ways that we think this plays out for us. And what are some ways we maybe want to zoom out and look at it. When we're not in it to make things more comfortable for us as individuals in daily life. And maybe that's not maybe it really doesn't. Maybe, maybe that's not. But what the what the next step is for a particular individual, because as Sarah said it's a lot more nuanced and complicated. What Bernie Brown asserts is that shame comes from old messages, often messages from early childhood, especially in that I think she writes been a long time since I read this book but like in the first eight years those neural ideas you laid down are they, they get over rehearsing over her servers and it's really hard to break out of. And often they are indicative of not just you know family culture but the larger, you know, geographic or you know, social culture that that particular person has to be in. She also says that no amount of shame is healthy that some that she writes that the idea that there are two types of shame, healthy shame and toxic shame that that that did not bear out in any of any of her research. That, um, sorry, shame thrives on secrecy. Sure, it's that shame is a silent epidemic, and what makes it silent is our inability or unwillingness to talk openly about shame and explore the ways in which it affects our individual lives, families, communities and society. And I think, I think that that is what we all just said, I think, which is that you know there's not one way that shame is and impacts people. And so I think what we're, I wonder, I wonder where people think about that. I think it's really important to explore shame. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna pull over and zigzag and just even just bring that like why what you know why or why not or you know in what ways is shame something to maybe explore for some people. Kat says I've found it important to explore shame, because I see shame as a sign that there's something way deeper going on than what's at the surface. Yeah, that resonates with me. I think that times when I absolutely flip my lid like flip my lid beyond like like like what I judge myself to be like an adult in the universe being when I later can process those things almost always I mean I would say always. It's because shame was evoked by by something. And before I had that lens like I read this book maybe, I don't know like 10 years ago, maybe, or whenever first came out. And I remember being like, Oh, that's interesting. That's new information. And he says, I have found Bernice work connecting fear and shame important to my work as a classroom teacher, making sure that what I say or convey to my students is not shameful hurtful or fear based. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that Amy I think I really actually connect that to what someone said at the beginning about being triggered by the term. It's obvious this is obviously this way or I added to that you know, oh well you know it's simple it's easy. Not my brain. And now I feel bad because you told me that the way to be a human. If you're a human, then it is easy, but not for me. Stevie says I really paid attention this week to my anxiety around the need to hurry in my mouth words, not to be late. And I realized this old pit of shame about not being able enough. Oh that resonates so much right so shame and internalized ableism. I mean they go they, they, they go they go hand in hand absolutely. So, I think I mean just to like play this out if we were going to fast forward to I have a slide that I may or may not show about what Bernie Brown said it says is a way out. Well she says is first to recognize this is shame, like this is shame this thing I'm feeling it is shame. You may not be able to recognize it in the moment but maybe later when you're processing a thing of like, oh that that thing that shame. And then because when you do that, what she says step two is is to tell someone. So what I'm, and it's not even I mean I've done it a million times already today, but I haven't done it on purpose, which is that somebody says something. And instinctively I'm like, oh yeah that resonates oh yeah me too. And almost always people do that when you're connected to other people almost always they do that. And that's what that's that's what I think the point is. So the people are not alone in that feeling of defectiveness and deficiency, and not everyone will treat your shame with care, as Kat says, if someone expresses their shame that means they feel very trusting of me and I must treat that with the utmost care. I don't really carry that with me so much cat. And because it's really it's because I mean, a lot of people don't treat people shame with care. And those are often the nature of those connections. This is maybe not this one and it's it's it's maybe there's, maybe it's the circumstance maybe the kind of things to dysregulated to really be, you know, thinking about that role and there's all kinds of things about that. And I think you're absolutely right. And I think what happens really, which really, really hard is that when someone is sharing shame, and, and the other person doesn't really even know that they're sharing shame, because nobody's talking about shame, they inadvertently cut may cause so much harm by not validating the experience. You know, somebody might share something and then someone's like well look on the bright side or like, you know, like, well you could think about it this way I'm like, No, this is shame, this is my truth. And you see this play out in in relationships in healthcare. I mean we just see this play out all the time. Sarah says when I feel shame I feel it physically, like a wave washing over my body. Yeah, so I've learned to recognize it by my physical reaction first. And I think, you know, Brené Brown says, often we feel shame before we think it. So it's like I feel the thing. And then later I might like ascribe it to like oh yeah that that was shame. But what ends up happening I think is that when shame, when shame happens, and we don't recognize that that's what it is. But maybe we may be so far gone, the train of meltdown of lash out of shut no just like, you know, of disconnection. And in that in that in that setting like, I don't know if it's happened anybody else but like off sometimes when I'm so upset. I'll say I'll say something and I know that I should stop doing I should stop talking I should stop screaming I should and I just can't hit stop, because I'm too dysregulated on the access to upstairs brain to hit my pause button. Shame connects to all of that, which is why, which is why I intentionally. I don't know if it has this impact or not but I like, I talk about flipping my lid all the time with most people I meet. Because sometimes people have never had that conversation and I'm trying to model it it's okay to talk about because everybody flips her lid. It's all the shoulds needs to haves to all of those words are keywords that signal someone is trying to shame me, including myself. I want to pause there. The signal that someone is trying to shame me, including myself. Yeah, does anyone else ever shame themselves. I do. Leah says all the time. Lizzy says yes. Yep, yep. Yeah, we got more yeses. That lots of yeses we got enough yes. Yeah. And Sarah that's really important so Sarah says we can't think our way out of shame. Even when I feel it physically I can't reason my way out it, because it's not that part of the brain for me. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Downstairs brain experience. And often we try to use upstairs brain techniques for downstairs brain experiences. And she says I feel it because my body limits me from from fill it from fulfilling quote basic human needs and and and and it's, you know, I like that you put the basic in quotes, because you know what's basic. I mean only an only individual can define what their what their what their needs are. And Kat says I like the phrase quit shooting on yourself. Yeah, I love that Kelly says I used to mean I used to shame myself I don't anymore. I realize that if I am not going to blame others for their disabilities I am not going to shame myself for mine. Oh, I love that Kelly thank you for that. At this point I'm going to flip through here. Is that so right so I so I so I talked about like step one learn to recognize your scene step to tell someone. And now step three and I think Angie's taking us in that direction understand where it came from, understand your personal triggers. So, there we go. Renee Brown lists like 20 in her research 20, like common themes of categories of things that people often commonly shame them so like experience shame related to. So appearance and body image, sex, family, aging, parenting, religion, money and work, being labeled or stereotyped health trauma, like, anyway, there, I found this interesting to see that that I mean it makes sense. But in the moment I was like, that's new information that like the things that I have shame about other people do too it's like in a book on a table, what. So I found that part of the book interesting. Any of these surprising to anyone. Yeah, any norms, right, right there. This is this is how it's supposed to be and you're like I'm not that. Yep. You know, I, Renee Brown writes about critical awareness, the idea of linking our personal experiences, you know, to what you can zoom out and connect with so the idea of like, you know, I'm not the only one normalizing that contextualize like I see the big picture and then you know share with other people. Kelly says I watched this video by Sinead Burke. She's a little person it changed my life, I realized then that the world was the disabler. Yeah. Really helped me change how I viewed myself. Thank you for that I can't wait to watch this after. Thanks for sharing. So last step. Renee Brown uses the like the zoom lens on a camera like shame working that way if you can like zoom out you start to see the big picture that maybe maybe you're a little bit more able to reality check a reality test and match it like so the way that cat said you know when somebody's trying to shame me since developing this kind of like this lens for like matching the pattern like I can match patterns all day I just didn't have it as a pattern to match. And so now I match it like you shame me shame me on and that I think to Kelly's point was is I think I think I think for some people it starts there. And as we've been talking about all month how this connects to the, you know, the larger power systems of, you know, of, of, of all the power over that goes on and a lot of the topics of shame that connect to the messages embedded in oppressive oppressive power systems about how people are socialized to quote be in the world. So, so, these, these, these, we can talk about every one. But these are, these are some things we were wondering about. How do you recognize shame. Oh cat says thanks. I'm glad you brought up power over I can talk about power over and every single conversation I ever have cat you can always kind of me for talking a little bit power over. So, so, and we, and we can, and we can, we can, we can certainly play that out, play that out some more people want to, but you know how are you navigating shame experiences when they happen, if they happen. And, you know, we're, we're, we're we think they come from and I think that's how power over concept plays plays out and, and part of part of doing it differently in an anti I think an anti oppression culture is an anti shame culture. It's an anti racism it's an anti ableism it's like all of that it's all one thing, I think. So, with that, I'd love to know. I'd love to know what anyone has to say. And she says clues of recognizing shame of very similar to what Sarah said at the physical experiences burning churning stomach hot face, sometimes sweating intense quote guilt feeling. Yep. Absolutely. Sarah says panic. Yeah, yeah. I mean so panic is an interesting thing. Because panic for many people is your sympathetic nervous system firing, you know something's unsafe and yeah, it is it is unsafe like this, this, this feeling is it is unsafe. But more importantly, the messaging the environment that led to this feeling is unsafe. So in many ways, these physical sensations are a clue of like hey, pay attention, this is not okay. Pat says wanting to curl up in a ball and disappear. Yeah, definitely. Angie says, you know, attempt to undo it by taking a breath and giving yourself compassion. And that's, that's, that's pretty hard to do a lot when you're like in it. Kelly says this group helps boost competence it's nice to be with a group of people who've had the same cringy moments. Oh yes I cringe most of the day. As I have when it comes to relating to the world. Did anyone else lose a lot of their internalized shame when they got their diagnosis. Oh yeah, it was the biggest game changer for me. I was like, Oh, Oh, I'm not a broken neurotypical person, just autistic. And there's like a whole bunch of people who the things the things that I am most feeling shame about of like the things I try to keep from the world turns out there's like, what's on a people who have experiences that I thought I was literally the only one that I've been hiding from the world You got a yes, a bunch of hearts. Yeah, and you know it's not just autism it's just like the idea of clarity the idea of a way of self understanding so you know self understanding self compassion whatever language you want to use to just um and I lose words that are like, you know, I'm like right now giving me I'm like doing the thing that we all talked about how we don't like you know the words that like it should be easy to get a word out anyway not easy, not at all it's 640. So, um, our board president talks about becoming more familiar with your own experience. And to me I think, you know, for many people certainly for you know I can speak for my only speak for myself, and and you know but other people have shared this of like identification or diagnosis whatever pathway to self understanding is is that first step. And then he says, I have been becoming more aware to have my need for autonomy, and the shame I had around it. First, how could you not have a shame about it you know so many of us have been told that when you when you assert your axis needs your selfish, you know you're this you're that you know why and or you know shame the need for interdependence as though there's something wrong about needing to feel connected to other humans. And then he also says, Kelly yes to find you have an explanation age 53 has been. I have no good word, and the thing is, you don't have to have words because energetically I get that. And I think probably a lot of people do. And that's the thing around around having, you know, being around people who get it is that you often don't have to have good words. And yet, even with an understanding or an evolving understanding whether or not someone you know, has a diagnosis or has self identified or not just an evolving neural learning experience. I think, like, it's, it's, it's also not a like one and done check the box now I know I'm autistic, for example, and like now I'm not going to feel shame like. I feel shame all the time it's just I think that I maybe spot it. Now I mean it's not just about diagnosis about like thinking about shame I think about shame a lot of talk about shame a lot. But but I think that practice has made it easier to spot it easier to spot it earlier before I'm too far gone down the train of shame. And, and, and maybe bounce back recover from it a little, little quicker, sometimes not always. That says learning to tell my kids tells was huge saying I'm sorry and laughing laughing how miss miss misconstrued that once was. Yeah, right the dysregulated like the like dysregulated laughing. I use that Luna and I talk about that because there's like the the dysregulated smirk, or the dysregulated chuckle or the dysregulated tackle like this is like what goes on out there. And in a lot of times like I remember in school. I remember like people getting shamed and punished for laughing and like they were dysregulated and like I got shamed for this, I worry smirking wipe that smirk off your face you know all that nonsense. Sarah says, one thing I loved about the book was the difference between sympathy and empathy deeply different experiences for the person sharing their shame right if you're going to relate to it as sympathy versus empathy. Empathy is really interesting because there's all these different types of empathy right like you can have cognitive empathy, you know emotional empathy, you know affective empathy. I mean, you're so ago I had a conversation with former colleagues of mine around how these all healthcare providers, how do you do empathy, like somebody tells you a thing. What's like going on what's your internal experience when you hear a thing. It was very interesting because none of them did empathy in the same way and they didn't do empathy, or I mean, they didn't do empathy in the way that I did empathy. I'm imagining that I'm the character in the other person's story. That is painful, like a lot. And I didn't know that that's not what everyone did I remember being a kindergarten bearing like put yourself in the other person shoes and feel like I mean that's that was the social motor plan that this former autistic child was was was taught. So it's just really interesting to see how, how people, how people do connection because there's not one right way to do connection same way that we talk about like all play is okay. Actually, I'm going to I'm going to read Kelly's quote and then I want to, then I want to show something. Lizzie can you pull up the video, the video of the sweet little love and the song we can we will have time for it today, or Sarah can someone find the sweet little love song. From last Tuesday's email. I'm going to put Lizzie's on it. Ellie says another thing we tend to shame people for as a society is not wanting to connect with others at times. Absolutely. Oh yeah. Like, yes I like connection, but not as much as many people. I like to eat alone. I like to be myself a lot. Yep. I think society is quick not to accept this and this might be why Brown's words hit me in the wrong way. Yeah, yeah for sure. So I mean I think I think that's why you know like what is connection connection doesn't mean talking about your shame. Like so that's that's I think that's the other thing shame could be like I mean pushing could be like connection could be like, I have autonomy to reach out and like, think about a person or have autonomy to think about a person I feel connected like I have autonomy to send a text message I have autonomy to not you know like it's it's it's it's it's it's autonomy plus interdependence in whatever way that works. It could be like synchronous. Hold on. Sorry, brain reading. I'm loving, I'm loving, I'm loving all the comments and I'm, you know, brain and Jesus skewing my connections to be more supportive like through ABB makes me feel more normal. I love all your quotes Angie. Kelly says, there's a middle school called a kind of spark. She the main character experiences empathy the way you describe I think it's a really important point that's interesting I'm going to look into that is interesting. That says that made me laugh because I think of someone saying tell me about your trauma so we can connect over it. Yeah, great. I mean, that's not how that works. Video is ready. Okay, so I want to give some middle school book. Oh cool. Okay. That's okay I will definitely look for that. Alright, so the story, the story of this is that one of our panelists from a couple weeks ago has a 10 year old 12 year old. A sweet little love, sweet little love that when she learned that we were talking about urgency culture. She wrote a song, a song for brain club. She wrote a song for it lezzie composer of this song. And she wrote it tight. So the thing is, I think that's how we, we all begin right so like we have like the sweet little love, who then gets the messages right the messages of that. There's a right way to be, and that you're not it. And that's, I have no words. And it just, when I think about all the sweet little loves, and like, we were the sweet little loves at some point, you know, like that. That's what's going on. That's what's going on in everyday life. Kat says I like how she said, again, that word stuck out for me, trying again. You have the kind of brain that doesn't feel time. It feels like I'm waiting like like an hour before saying something again, but yet also trying to just like create space. Maybe it's only been like 20 seconds. But anyway, I wonder if Kelly has your hand up. Oh, I did not see. Thanks. Go for it. So the song reminded me of like a loop around that I wanted to share when I was young. And ignoring someone was thought of as like a way to avoid, you know, negative reinforcement and to stay in positive reinforcement they teach us as teachers to like, don't give attention to the negative behavior ignore the negative behavior. So I see that as is one of the most negative things that you can do because you've created this connection. And sometimes you're that person's person, you know, in the school setting and the home setting you're their person. You're taking away that connection through the ignoring. And, you know, you're kind of throwing them off on an island at least that was how it always felt to me it felt like maybe the worst kind of negative reinforcement that you could find, and going back to this. Like she said and the connections and the shame I'm wondering if are we furthering shame accidentally by saying, Oh, let's ignore and not reinforce this bad behavior and then praise the good behavior because that has always felt extremely punitive to me. I think your limbic system reacting to like unsafe unsafe. I mean I think like, it is unsafe. I think the whole thing about I mean like when you zoom out. I mean, again because I can't have a conversation about making this about power systems. You're trying to control another humans bodily autonomy by selectively ignoring punishing disconnecting. That's gross. So, yeah, I totally agree. And I think that what appears, what appears benign is is so not is so far from benign. I absolutely agree with you. And Sarah says, that's, that's when people need help and connection the most CV says it feels like I'm good or I'm bad based on attention and the type of attention the amount of attention. Yes, exactly. Sarah says, she quoted quoting from the book. Both my parents were raised in families where these beliefs about toughness and weakness seemed to be encoded in genes. I think if anything they just unknowingly passed them along describing intergenerational trauma. Kelly says, could it be benign for neurotypical people or is this case for anyone. I don't know. I mean, it's interesting like, I think it's about like what the narrative you spin is. So, like, like, my husband and I both grew up, I think I mean it sounds like he grew up in also a culture where planned ignoring and silent treatment went on because I like see it going on and where'd you get that from oh your whole life awesome. So, like, he thinks it's absolutely fine. Absolutely fine because it's normed it's just it's it's normed. And so, you know, I guess I can't talk about it's benign for is it is it not benign for anybody but like, anyway, it's not benign when I see the emotional impact of it I think it's about the impact, whether you intend it to be benign or not or whatever the impact that it's having. And it's and Kelly says it's often what we're taught in classroom management classes but it's another nothing it's something I could never do right because you have a, you know moral compass in your limbic system is guiding you to like what you're ethically comfortable with. You know what I mean is ignoring can be psychologically worse than even things like purple punishment evolutionarily if your tribe abandons you your chances of survival they're very low and our brains perceive it as the ultimate threat. And what that's thinking. You know when we think about it, you know when we think about even I'm just going to give up. No, I have impulse control it's 656 I cannot open the door by what I'm going to say I'll save it, I'm going to save it. Anyway, next time, speaking of next time. It's a new month. It's a new month. And what, what decide for next month. I think we're doing spring cleaning spring cleaning things that no longer serve us. Yeah, so a whole month of the, the ideas and practices and routines and environments I mean, every time we give a new theme it's not really a new theme it's the same theme every time, but we just call it something new because it's a new month. So anyway, with that, we will reimagine culture and keep it keep it going. Thank you all so much for being here and we hope to see you next Tuesday. Bye.