 Okay. I'm okay. I was at the beach or somewhere. It's beautiful sunset. Nice. Okay. So do I have to, I, do I just read the preamble without the stuff about public hearings? Is that. Yeah. The whole remote meeting thing. Yep. Okay. So it is six 33. And we are here for the Amherst historical commission meeting on November 13th. And we are here for the meeting. And we are here for the meeting. And we are here for the meeting by Zoom pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12th, 2020, order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. General law C 30 a section 18 and pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended by chapter 20, 22 of the acts of 2022. And extended again by the state legislature on July 14th, 2022 and signed into law. And we are here for the meeting. And we are here for the meeting. And we are here for the meeting. And the act of Amherst historical commission is being conducted by a remote participant participation. Members of the public who wish to access this meeting, they do so by a Zoom or by telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. A hyperlink to the hearing has been posted. So, there's the agenda. Announcements. Do you have any announcements? No announcements. I think we can cover stuff in the agenda topics. Okay. Sorry, I've just got one screen and I know there's a fancy way to split it. And I don't know what it is. So the next item on the agenda after announcements is the review of the FY 25 historic CPA proposals. We have the mill river history trail, the restoration of the North and South cemeteries and the East Amherst local historic district study committee. Yeah, I think I'll just give an intro or Robin, but I'll just add to that. So I do have a few recommendations that I'd like to include there too on the CPA committee, but the CPA committee is meeting weekly now to review proposals. They reviewed the three that are on the agenda last week. There's a few more historic preservation. Proposals. They'll review those. On the next week or two. And then there, the hope is that they'd have recommendations by the end of the year calendar year. I think that's it. And usually this, the circle commission would write, you know, could write or recommendations or have Robin speak on our behalf at a CPA committee meeting. And I do think that's probably important. You know, I, it's, I find that, you know, that they meet every week is it's a pretty fast pace review. And so it doesn't give us much time. So if we want to wait till next month, it could be too late, depending on where they are in the process, but So are they not going to present to us, Nate? In the past, the people who had CPA applications made a presentation to the historical commission that it's not going to happen this year. Is that correct? Well, tonight we can talk about the three and then we're hoping next month we would have the remaining ones come before the commission. So, okay. There is someone here for the Mill River history trail. Maybe there's someone here. I thought I'd seen someone. And then, yeah, so you know, we would, I mean, they're probably going to be, and they can be short presentations, but you know, people come. Thank you. I feel like the way the CPA committee is working, they don't allow a lot of time. It used to be that it was a longer review process by the committee. So then, you know, the historical commissioner, the conservation commission, or you know, the recreation commission, whatever respective board or committee needed to review proposals have that time to do it. I'm not sure that that's, it seems like it's not as well integrated into the process right now. I would say that I think that applicants are encouraged in the application process to consult with respective committees. I'm trying to think of what other CPA proposals are out there. I'm from the Amherst Historical Society for Engineering Studies, I can't remember. And what else is out there that's not town related. Oh, there's a homeowner that's looking to relocate the house, the Stark house, and I don't know if I know it's up. Oh, yeah, I was trying to find the list too. Yeah, I thought there was one more room. Maybe not maybe that's it actually the house move in the in the Historical Society. Yeah, that's five that's oh and that's the church, the North Amherst Church. Yeah, I knew there were six I right. Yeah. So I see Cat Stryker is in the attendees I think she's here and she's raising her hand. Yes, she's here from the river right. Hi Cat you can unmute yourself. We can make you a panelist that might be easier to present. So you'll be asked to rejoin as a panelist and I'm just promoting you now. Hi. Greetings. Hello. Hello. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, yeah, it's nice to be here. Obviously we were expecting Meg Gage to do the presentation. So I'm going to stand in for her as best I can as a newcomer to the Mill River History Trail project. I sat in on one of their meetings. My interests were closely aligned. So I was very happy to join the group. And I was there for the presentation of the archaeological research, which was presented during that meeting, and I have a little bit of an overview. But as we said by email, it's probably better if there are any more detailed questions after the proposal to direct those by email to Meg, because she has been in this from the very beginning, and she'll be able to answer them. But I'm also happy to meet everybody here this evening. Thank you. Thanks for joining us and we're eager to hear more. So the proposal was submitted and you've, you've seen the next phase of the history trail. Yeah. And the proposal to research 12 additional sites, most of which don't have any archaeological remains and things like the sawmill on Summer Street, Lithuania, little Lithuania on Summer Street. And the blacksmith shop behind the Northamhurst library extension. And that's what the committee is seeking funds for. Nate, can you. Is there anything pertinent that we'd want to pull up from their application. I was just trying to get the documents. So the question cat you'll be using the same consultants that you've used for the previous sites to help identify the historical aspects. There will be a different level of research, because the archaeological site was surveyed by proper archaeologists with experience on on such such things. And detailed reports, but for this next part is very much going back to the historical records that exist and beginning to tease out the stories. So there might not be any physical remains for certain, certain of the sites. Let me take a quick look. You know, Cushman common, the Puffers pond ice business, for example, I mean there there's nothing left of that. But the next phase of research would involve a researcher and a supervisor, you know, going to the existing records and building out that story about the Puffers pond ice business, so that it's in a lovely accessible form for people. And then also having a website to back that up so people can dig through different levels of storytelling and research from original documents at whatever level they want to understand it at. So we have this wonderful archaeological survey, which is already up on the district one North Amherst website and it has enough detail to satisfy anybody about the Roberts Mills I mean you could geek out forever on what they've put together which is fabulous. So he was just casually walking through the woods, and they said, oh, you know, that's interesting I wonder what that wall was. They might be able to find a story about who owned it and when it was operational and maybe when when it burnt down or something on those lines. So the next phase is very much in bringing out the the social history, exploring the other 12 sites, which we highlighted in the report, teasing out things that will be of interest to people walking along the history trail about those. And yeah, that is that's the next phase. I have another question if I may, will you have markers at each of these sites to refer people back to the website to get more information. Yes, absolutely. Another question that Meg and the other members of the committee can give more detail on, but I understand they're using QR codes. So people can use smartphones and just point them at a sign along the way, which is next to the post, and then they can pull up as much or as little information as they want about that. I think it would be wonderful to also have slightly broader rather than just a QR code to perhaps have a small graphic along with that. But that's yet to be decided. Obviously the conservation committee needs to get involved in the signage what exactly it's going to look like. But certainly there will be posts next to the sites with QR codes that people can find easily when they're walking along the trail. Wonderful. Thank you. Yeah. So just to clarify, I just got the budget in front of me here now. Maybe, maybe you can help me weigh in on this. One of the issues we always have is what can CPA fund and what can it not fund. And I think the time for the archivist which is budgeted at $25,000. And then a project manager editor is another $25,000. Those would be fallen to the category of supports that help the town manage its cultural resources. There is the ask is for, I think around 42. So I think between those two items, and you know the CPA committee will get into more detail about this, but between those two items. There should fall under what's eligible to be covered. I'm not as clear on whether web design and printing an outreach would be justifiable expenses under the CPA but since they ask us for 40, 40 something I don't have a right in front of me. And those first two items total $50,000 it seems like that would be perfectly eligible and appropriate expenses. As far as signage for that that's something that would be a next phase doesn't we're not. That's I think that's the intention of the trail project but right now. It's not before us. Yeah, so I'm sharing the budget screen I think Robin your assessments correct. You know one of the CPA committees questions were if the web design and printing an outreach were eligible and, you know, I think it's questionable is just one of those things that I think you could say it could be, but because I'm not just seeking to fund raising I think you know we would just say that the budget really is for, you know, time of the archivist and manage product manager and that's, those are eligible on their own. And then another comment that I, I had was just that it would be something for the historic commission to consider the potential for this area to generate. The national register nomination down the line which I think would be a great outcome as well. That's definitely falls within responsibilities of the historical commission. And I think that if I remember from my coursework this would be a considered a cultural landscape, sort of it would cover the layers of time that the land has been used for in different historical contexts. So, I would love to see us and the and the middle river trail project, keep that in mind as we move forward again it's not something that we're considering right now but it's would be a good piece. In terms of preservation documentation going forward to think about for the commission to to undertake. Does anybody else have questions, Teddy or Michaela. You're muted if you're sorry. I'm just making a note about the cultural landscape nomination which I think would be wonderful. And yeah, I mean I think what's important about that is, cat if you relay this to Meg is that that makes it, you know, could you know if there's any question about what if this was eligible for CPA funding that would make it eligible right that it is doing research that you know something can become, you know can become inventory and documented. I don't know if I question it but you know when this is being presented, or was it already presented this wasn't already presented to the CPA committee. You know they'll it's a it's a very brief presentation and then it's just you know 1015 minute discussion with the CPA committee members and so, although they've already asked questions of the proposal they can, you know they could have other questions while they're discussing it as a committee and so I think that's something that I can bring up to as the representative keep that in mind. Right. And there is a hand raised in the audience if there's no other commission comments. Okay, what do you have any comments. No, I'm good. Robin can you see that we get we do on Jane. Oh yeah. So we can recognize Jane wall for comment. All right. Hey Jane you can unmute yourself. Yes, can you hear me. Yes. Please identify yourself to the committee Jane. I'm Jane walled. I'm a former member of the historical commission but in this instance, I'm a member of the Mill River project committee. I hadn't expected to be able to attend this, this meeting but can do so unexpectedly so I just wanted to be here to support cat to, and I think she's done a wonderful job of giving an overview of this project. And just wanted to make myself available to answer other questions I think the one thing I would say. The remaining 12 sites is that they are a combination of kind of lost resources but also existing buildings existing buildings neighborhoods and sort of three areas of that are contextual that are identified in as historic features but need just need more research. So, one is the is about indigenous people who use land and and river and resources there hints about that that we'd like to learn about geology of the mill river and its relationship to Lake Hitchcock so there's a kind of a historical geological sort of ecosystem piece to it and then political and economic significance of the mill river factory district, which in the event that there is some kind of nomination as cultural landscape. Those aspects would be critically important that in that application. Great, thank you Jane. Okay, any other questions or comments seeing any other hands raised so thank you cat for joining us and giving us that overview. And I'll be seeing you guys in the CPA committee. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, next on our agenda is the rest restoration of north and south cemeteries. Well, you know I'll speak to this I presented to the CPA committee last week. The town's asking for 150,000 to restore, you know about 250 headstones 125 in each cemetery north and south, and then also to remove the fence. The fence around three sides of the north cemetery to two and a half besides to remove that and put in granite posts, and also there's some barbed wire fencing and some other fencing on south Amherst cemetery. Remove that and put in posts and so it's been documented that the south Amherst cemetery at one point had, you know, over 30 hitching posts as markers and so it's, you know, kind of akin to that getting getting it back to that aesthetic rather than a, you know, a certain fence. You know, I think the CPA committee has some questions about this fence work and then also the kind of the historic value of cemeteries. And so, you know, I think we explained it Robin and myself. But, you know, I think that it's always always seems to be the case that historic preservation projects, I think they, you know, there's such a range of what can be a preservation project and it's it's much different when it's a preservation project it's like oh we're buying land for wildlife habitat or we're getting a conservation restriction to protect a vertical pool or, you know, it just seems a little more straightforward and so when you're talking about studying something or inventorying or restoring headstones. I know there's questions about you know why couldn't the families do this and it's like well some of these families are, you know, both next to Ken or it's just not even worth that effort to try to find someone from 250 years ago. You know, and they were actually like they're part of the both of them are part of the common part of the original layout of Amherst and so I think that was made that these are really you know these are. They've had a history and that the inventory form explained kind of the cultural significance so you know I think that the CPA committee. You know they seem pretty responsive to it I will say that they have a fair number of asks and probably more funding than is available and so they always ask, you know, could the project move forward with a smaller budget. And so, you know, I think they're probably going to ask that of every every applicant. So as I would. I guess that the there would be two aspects to reduce funding one would be to postpone the fence because that's the less urgent, and then the next question would be to reduce the number of stones if it gets really tight. Yeah, so we could target it towards older or more just the more threatened resources if we needed to but I won't necessarily put that on the table right away. Yeah, I think that if you know if they're like oh would you accept 100,000 or 80,000 and answer be sure and maybe we then focus on, you know, 75 stones in each cemetery and right, you know we could work with someone to identify really what those those are and what the treatments would be. Yeah, what's the time frame for, what was it 100, 100, 125 each. Yeah, you know the money isn't available until next July and so we we have a draft scope of work that's, you know we can almost recycle from what we did in West Cemetery just in the last year or two and so. In terms of I was thinking in terms of how long it actually takes to. Yeah, yeah. 125 yeah that that time frame. Yeah, so it's interesting the cleaning of the stones it's a multi step process where they apply a cleaner a few times and it whitens it and takes off any growth and then they come in and they manually clean it and then they might reset it and so. I was saying that if we were ready if we could get it started quickly next year, and then someone was selected in the fall they would probably. They could work in September October November they would then wait come back in the spring and probably finish it by next October right so it's like a year. Okay. I just always look at there are cemeteries is a historical archive. And the fact that they would be questioned whether it's historic, you know, under the purview of the historical commission and CPA funds that that's where I come from it's this. It's a historical archive I walked through the South Amherst cemetery from time to time and the, you know, the families who lived here, what what they did what century. They need to be preserved. Oh yeah, I think Nick did a good job of pointing out that, you know that if I have the straightening like essentially when when the stones are abandoned they become property of the town right. So then it's then then it's you know the town's responsibility to manage it and I made the argument that you know the information that's on the stones is is integral to the integrity of the cemetery as a whole. And you know that has all sorts of purposes, along with just, you know, knowing who's buried there it has to do with settlement patterns and the relationship of those. And that was for grazing even when they were great graveyards and so hopefully, hopefully our pitch will work. It was just, it was just one voice. Thank you both. And I think some of it was, you know, West Cemetery's had a lot of attention and we did look at some stones with pvpc a few years ago in west north and south and you know they also need work and so I was just trying to, you know, build up those as well get those in nice repair. And then, did you say that the, we talked a little bit about the, the area forms for the cemeteries that are pretty up to date. Yeah, I, I know Valley Planning Commission a few years ago and they looked at the stones they also updated the inventory form so they did more research on them. And so, you know, I, it looks like actually it's the same research they the cemeteries were kind of formed at the time. They went through some of the same processes in terms of beautification or how they were used. And so it looks like they use kind of the same reference sources, but it could be that a little more research is done on both of them individually. Okay. So that's something that potentially commissioners could help with. Yeah, I mean, I will say that I'm assuming the company that will bid on this will. There's only a few when we, when we looked at West Cemetery up you get the funding. There's not many conservators who will do a small, small things is considered like a smaller job so you know there's only two or three in the region that would probably know the next say like 3040 miles radius that would actually bid on this. Yeah. It's actually interesting, the fact that there's potentially we could run out of conservators. Yeah, well we just have to, you know, right, kind of cast a wider net but it is interesting that the one firm we did used to use out of the Berkshire is like I said at that CPA meeting and I think their, their principles are tired and I'm not sure what they're I think they're changing their work a little bit and then London Memorial we've been using you know they said they've been putting on stuff. A lot of it's an Easter Mass and you know I'm sure and just all over. Right, right. That's interesting. Okay. Any questions from commissioners. So the East Amherst local district district study committee. Take it away Nate. The local historic district commission you know there's two local historic districts in town there's one around Emily Dickinson National Register District around the homestead and the Evergreens it's 40 or so properties. And then there's a Lincoln Sunset North prospect district which is a little less than 200 properties and the local historic district study committee or commissioners thought well could there be others and you know we've looked at East Amherst it's actually one of the older, oldest village districts in town, and a lot of the homes are still. They may have some vinyl siding but the structures themselves are, you know, 18th century, early 19th century and so the National Register district is about 40 properties 35 properties and that's kind of the starting point for going through the process of studying the properties again update, you know, basically redoing all the inventory forms with research and then submitting a study report to Mass Historic to create another local historic district. And Chris Skelly is the consultant he submitted a price proposal. He actually had worked for the Massachusetts Historical Commission for a number of years, and now he's a private consultant and so he's really familiar with this work. And what the Massachusetts Historical Commission would need and so he provided a cost estimate and the Commission is basically asking for CPA funding to, you know, we can't. Because of his price quote it's over 10,000 we have to seek votes from other professionals but he, he provided it you know what for his, his service scope of service what it would be and so the commission has made that funding request it's not. Not too much. You know and what what we told the CPA committee what we're going to get out of it could be, you know, up to 50 new inventory forms. So it could be that you know it'll be a pretty, a pretty great resource whether or not a district is adopted at least we would have had research done on these properties and then also a narrative written to strengthen the National Register nomination so. You know, some of it is just that publication and research base. So they're going to be overlap and actually for would you would it would be a possible to pull up macros maps and just show the current East so there's an East the East Amherst National Register district which we're also working on expanding. So is this sort of like a tighter number of properties within the center of that. And is there overlap between those two projects. Let me just, there is some overlap, I will say that pvpc is we never we're still working on what, you know, having them complete more work and so, you know, the thing here would be that the funding would be available until next July. Okay, let me share my screen. This is visible. What's outlined in red here is the existing now it's kind of, you know, orange. This is the East Amherst National Register district and the idea would be to expand it, possibly to some other areas, you can see what's now orange. That's what pvpc had looked at. So the study, the local historic district commission we walked to the neighborhoods we spent two site visits. And there you know there is potential maybe to get to the Fort River. You know, the Massachusetts Historical Commission will look for natural breaks and settlement patterns whether that's along, you know, natural features or other things and so, you know, we, we said well maybe we'll stay, you know, we'll use this as a starting point but right you know, go down to Spalding or up to the Fort River. And so yeah, I'm not, you know, I think some of it's yet to be seen exactly where, you know, what are the boundaries. You know, some of it was well okay if a lot of the buildings in here are pre civil war. And so, you know, Spalding Street a little more, you know, more modern, if you would use that term and so it would be saying okay what you know what's the, what what time period and what are the homes. What's the character so yeah I mean I don't I think, I think really to justify the boundaries you have to almost look at the neighboring properties and determine why or why not why are they in and why are they not in so. So, drawing just kind of a general area for a local historic district what would that look like would that be sort of a smaller tighter section or would it just be related to the dates of the buildings. I mean why would you have why how can you justify the boundaries. Well I'm just curious if the boundaries for the, the local historic district would be as expansive as the National Register District or would it be a smaller subset. I think it would be at, you know, probably as expansive as the one that's highlighted in orange now and it could be bigger. Okay, I think you know, like I said I think you'd have to, you know, mass, the Massachusetts Historical Commission wouldn't. You know they don't like leaving out property so for instance, you know, there's a few newer areas newer homes here right but, you know, up here these are, this is you know the original. I think it's right here is probably what was the original post office building. It's an old house here farmhouse here. Yeah. So, you know, realistically if you want to capture these three. They would say well you know, you'd capture the these few right here and then you have this, you know, a congruous district and so. Right. Yeah that's where, you know, that's those are kind of the decision making points. Yeah. Is my understanding correct that currently, I think I remember working with Shannon. Last year that they were working on the expanded properties but then MHC came back and said they wanted updates to so the expanded properties being in blue right now they wanted updates to what's in red because those are relatively old forms. So that's part of what we're up against okay so we have these kind of two projects going on simultaneously so I can see how that would help with what PVPC was trying to do is expand. And then this other study can come in and start revising maybe adding properties and that in the red yeah okay. Any questions from Pat or McKenna or Heady? Are you all familiar with MACROS maps? I know Heady is. Oh, of course I pulled all of them. Oh that's right. When I was working on the north prospect. Yes. And I think this is, you know, I think it's very clear what possibilities are for this. My comments are really more about the sort of villages that are growing up in Amherst around these sort of key parts of the north, south, east, west kind of coordinates. And the east village has some really interesting places, buildings. It has really interesting history. It's where we're going to have a new school. I know that parents are concerned about walks to school from home. Anything that will augment that experience for people who live there, who go to school there, who find that they're shopping there at the little stores on Route 9 on College Street there. You know, I think something like this heightens awareness of the history of the area. And so I'm all for it. Great. Any other comments or questions? I definitely think it's a really good idea too. I did have a question. We were talking about there was like various ages of the buildings. Is there. It's the historical district. Any reason for it to be separated out by era of building or is it just all one protected area. Yeah, I think, you know, I think that's what Robin was asking is like, I guess if we focused on a certain time period, then the district could be, you know, pretty small. And it, you know, some areas it's really clear that this neighborhood or this area was, you know, there was a period of significance that also was contained similar architectural styles, I think. And this East Amherst, that's where the, you know, when we're walking around is kind of like, well, where, where do you stop, you know, if you keep going up Main Street to Spalding Street, you're starting to get into, say it's mid 19th century or later. Is that still relatable to what's around the common itself and so. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think that's really for the study committee, you know, but you could you could say okay we're going to focus on pre civil war, or what, you know, whatever if there's a break in style and time period. You know, what, you know, I so I think that's an amorous it's interesting is the way there's been infill and new product new developments new neighborhoods and houses, you know, we really don't have something that's so discreet as oh this is you whatever the federal style neighborhood with brick homes or something it's been, you know, kind of a heterogeneous mix of architecture and styles and so that makes a little a little trickier sometimes but And then my understanding is that MHC will there'll be a dialogue back and forth about what they feel like is appropriate given the resources selected, you know what the context and the time period is and it all has to be justified in in the writing but yeah. Yeah, there's a typically have to inventory all the properties survey property owners hold the public meeting or to write a preliminary study report that includes justification of the boundaries and architectural styles. And that that's what mass historic reviews and then through a back and forth and then maybe more public process there's a final report that submitted so right they have a chance to weigh in on why you're choosing those boundaries. Okay, any other questions or comments. Okay. Next up is discussion of one and five year goals and comments on the draft preservation plan. I am still working my way through it. So I apologize that I don't, I haven't actually, I've been working through my way through the history. I've gotten to the goals part but I did I did send you right before the meeting started. I can let commissioners know that I'm, I have a little just a little very short. Google form survey to just kind of take everybody's temperature on what they think is important for us to focus on the short term in the long term. So I'm hopefully going to get that sent out this week. But if you have that document. I'll share my screen. Yeah, that'd be great. I think this goes hand in hand with the preservation plan and we could help PVP see if we want to restructure some of the action items. They did ask if we had comments on the plan to get them to them soon because they're hoping to finish this year. And it's already November somehow. I'll let them know Robin that they'll be comments coming. I think that's great. I mean I've looked at it kind of a higher level I haven't really done. Sometimes I really want to sit down and just do a deep read and I haven't. Yeah. I've tried to to really review it in its entirety. And I need to go back and make notes but there were certain things that you know there was a question of should Jeffrey Amherst be mentioned as the namesake of the town. I don't think that's a question. That's history. There's a bad indigenous folks about the black community and other other historical aspects of Amherst that there are notes that it needs to be expanded. So I guess my question is, is the, the people who are working on it now will will be the ones expanding it, or do they want suggestions from us. I wasn't clear on what that question was. Yeah, I think we had we were hoping that pdpc would have done a little research there. And then, and then it might be that that becomes an action item, you know that that's something that commission or, you know, we would, you know, the community would follow through with so, you know, we didn't have enough money for them to do a, you know, a thorough research on that but if they, if they, you know, there's say if they've done some research and they said yeah there's, you know, there's other stories here that haven't been told or research that isn't done, then I think that becomes part of, you know, their five year plan in the So yeah, I don't, I would expect them to do an exhaustive research of that but just identify that, you know, those, you know, whether it's a certain group of people or time period or something that it wasn't in any of the documentation that was provided so they, you know, they researched and reviewed the plans and sources we have and they may have said okay yeah here's where there's missing pieces. And so then that becomes part of what you know as part of the next kind of action items to do. And Nate I guess what I was looking for in those areas where they say this needs to be expanded upon or whatever. Maybe some bullet items about where the expansion, where they're going to look to expand it would be helpful. Yeah, and I don't know if you work with track changes and word that's what I've been doing I'm just going through and, you know, writing in my comments or suggestions for editing, and I'm just going to submit that back to them as you know my version with comments that they can kind of follow along with and, you know, uses they see fit so that's one, that's one option to get comments back to them. Right, well I will work on that next first I thought I needed to digest it all. I know it's a bit lengthy. Yeah, it's a bit lengthy and, and, you know, two years ago, a part of a group that asked me to speak to the plan. And so I really familiar with the original plan, but, but I'm, I'm, I was interested to see these areas where it was recommended that there be expanded information. It just would be helpful to know what areas are considered for expansion. And, and I mean, that raises a question in my mind which is sort of a question a question that I'd like to take the temperature of everybody is is some of the I found some of the history to be a little bit too expensive and a little bit too detailed. And, you know, I'm making those comments as I go along but it, I was a little bit overwhelmed by that piece of it and it may be just because I'm reading so closely and not skinning, but I just be curious what people thought about if they have any comments on that. Part of my initial reaction Robin was that there didn't seem to be a balance to the areas that were more developed than others. That makes sense to you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's some areas that that were just totally totally in detail and repetitive in different sections. And then there were other areas that seem to be more cursory. Yeah, I think the problem is that, as you read what you think is a narrative. It's only slowly becomes clear that the narrative is leading to a point that's related to the architectural history of Amherst. And, you know, I noticed that sort of 2025 pages into the document and that's about as far as I've got now as well. Yeah, and it does speak to Robin's point that it, it needs to get to the nugget or the bullet point, as you say, Pat, about, you know, what's what's really critical, you know, so that the, so that, you know, you get to the, you get to the meat of the, of the information, especially if we want to consider how it's going to be used by all sorts of different people. And Hedy, I agree with you. I think in writing any document, the original paragraph, the first paragraph in each section has to have the meat, and then it gets fleshed out after that. Because if it's not in the first paragraph or two, we're not going to get a lot of people reading this. Yeah, no, I think that was one of the things that I struggled with was that sort of, you know, that structure that just kind of leads you to the next thing and I think maybe just just it's just a much. I'm a little bit surprised that they're intending to finish by the end of the year just because it seems like more of a first draft than a kind of closer to final draft, but And it seems to me that they use the 2005 document and embellished it. And I'm not being critical. I know how difficult it is to expect something like this. So kudos to the group that's doing it. But those are my thoughts as I read it. Yeah, yeah. Nate, did you have any comments? No, I mean, I might actually send them the link of this meeting after just I think there's been some nice things said, you know, it's funny. Months ago, you know, I thought the draft was like 17 pages and I was like, Oh, it's a little, little light. This is like in the summer I was like, Oh goodness. But then all of a sudden a new one they shared the draft before the recent meeting I was like, Okay, yeah, now it's Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, I guess I was, I think Pat your point I was hoping that maybe we'd have more direction in terms of what was missing. And so more than a note that it was missing but almost where to look for, you know, like, Oh yeah, we, you know, we did look into these families or we did some initial research and, or maybe that can be the bullet points you know where of how to do this. No, and I think it yeah I'm, yeah, I don't know how to truncate it I mean we're running into this we're updating the town's open space and rec plan. We have to do the housing production plan and those end up being really big documents I mean 100 plus pages and, you know, could be that some of that information gets into the appendix, or there's a good executive summary at the beginning, or we can structure the subsections of the report. I mean, I don't agree with the table of contents of where to jump quickly to get information. I mean, you know, I, you know, I don't know if those are the things that could help a reader because it may be that you know, if we can structure it and it could be like oh I don't even, you know what I don't. If I really want to know what are the action steps here, here's where we are up here is here's the section on whatever I can jump there as opposed to trying to figure it out by going through the whole document. So, yeah, I mean I'm just thinking, this was working on it yesterday like I was on the section of the JCA, which I think they were just, you know, probably like. I mean, just to give a specific example like four or five sentences worth of content that was just just too detailed and not really, you know, not really helpful to the purpose of the plan like you need, you know, sort of more broader strokes about, you know, a community and and so I'm making those contents as I go along but it's good to have. Yeah, it sounds to grow on the same page and trying to figure out a good structure that would work. And there is a wealth of information there. And we hate to lose that, but I go back to what I said about encapsulating the meat and paragraphs and then, you know, having having kind of a forward to what follows that this is this is the, you know, the detail of what this is the first three paragraphs happen. It would be much more readable and anyone in the public wanting to read it would understand the format and get what was important at the beginning and some of the background information is interesting. You wouldn't I wouldn't want to lose that but I don't want to have to wade through it. Right. And I would say with that in mind also since it is November 13. I know I'm going to be pushing myself to get my revisions off to Nate and by the end of the week. So, you know, whatever I think whatever you can get done if you want to submit anything, maybe aim for to aim to admit submit something by then so that we can help them in a move forward. I'll try to consolidate my comments tonight because I won't have time to go through and read. Yeah. But but that my comments apply to the whole document. Yep. Yep. Okay, great. Hilda has her hand raised Robin. Oh, okay. We recognize Hilda. Can I see your faces again. I've got, I just got the screen in front of me enough. Anyway, I want to say what's what seems to me missing on this list is two things. One, especially with regard to East Village is all the industries that used to be there and are now gone. It's, it's very reminiscent of the middle river up here. And one of them the first one of the earliest ones that I know about is preserved clap. The 18th century had a clock shop on North East Street. His name is very well known in the clock books among people who collect clock. I happen to have one of his, which we went all the way up to Vermont to find but I mean, people know anything about him and he lived in that neighborhood and in the 18th century, and then wasn't there a carriage factory and was it. President Grant who went to his inauguration in an Amherst coach. I have this couple of stories all mixed up here but I thought that carriage factory was on the corner of Northeast. And maybe if my husband was alive he would tell me I'm all wrong and he'd give it to you right but but he did work on the original East Amherst historic district. So, the other thing that's missing is the people there. We had owned and restored back in the 70s and sold it what couple years ago. So, what was called the beehive and it says on the front Smith House East which mappers has deep into the 19th century and it's very clearly a federal house from the inside and the outside. They called that the beehive because of all the children of the workers from the factories that lived in that building. And I just wanted to add that because I didn't see anything about people or industry on the list. Beehive is mentioned in the in the document. Yeah, but but it might not be under the right area. I think they said under the by clock watch but I didn't want to say it. I think that's what I said. From the stories that I have heard. Nate as far as held affording any information about the East Village. Should she send send send things to you I mean. I mean, if she said materials. That stuff and to me I've got my brain is work anymore. But I would love it if I could see you and not look at the list. Okay. I cannot stop sharing if that's where I was going to have people get the list but we can. Yeah, we'll get back to that. Take that for what it's worth. Okay. Do you have any documents you want to bring to town hall? I can copy or scan or I can then I can share. I have a thing that the people from dearfield brought me about just a picture of a preserved clap clock and I you can come look at the clock. It's a very it has a silver face. And a very beautiful cherry with flame finials case, which probably didn't go with it, but it looks nice. Okay, so getting back to this potential list of one in five year goals if you want to bring that up again. This will be on the survey that you guys get. But that's just what I had come up with general as a general list. To give folks an idea I've learned a lot. In my, when I, when I entered last year for the Berkshire Regional Planning Commission, I worked with hard to develop this guide on the status of all their historic district, a historic and historic historical and historic district commissions and what I realize at that time is one of the main historical and historical commissions is to keep their inventory updated. So, in, I've been batting around different ideas with different members of the commission and so that's what's under inventory updates. I think everybody knows that I started working for MHC about a month ago. So now I'm learning that like one of the things that needs to be updated in inventory is demolished buildings. And that's probably not even just the most recent ones. Pretty much any demolished building unless a local commission or someone else sends information to the mass historical commission they don't know that it's been demolished so that's one area. We talked about researching marginalized communities more fully looking toward the more recent past looking at more modernist structures. I think he has had both he and Madeline have more expertise in this area and can speak to trying to begin to identify buildings that I think you know we're making this transition and historic preservation moving where you know the kind of what we classically think of this you know like the Victorian period and those sorts of things are proceeding further into the past and things that were more recent are now becoming historically relevant so that's why that's there. I put cemetery updates again if that's necessary, the East Village, and then the Lincoln Sunset so those are all areas where we could all potentially if we wanted to volunteer time help to update the inventory. Nate I don't know when we did a national register nomination. And I know MHC has certain expectations for a community before they'll entertain one. But I thought that might be a good thing for us to consider maybe an under the five year plan of thinking what we might put up for nomination. So whether we want to delve into one of these kind of newer areas whether it's focusing on a marginalized community or something modernist or. So those are some thoughts there. We've talked about our preservation restriction policy. That's probably a one year goal would be good to get that set. That's related to the CPA. So CPA funding requires preservation restriction. The terms are, I guess, up to the town, and there are easier and harder ways to do it. Affirmative maintenance which is sometimes called demolition by neglect by law that's to put into law a. I mean that that's that's again probably a five year five year goal, because that really involves not only pulling together a bylaw but having the towns buy in on enforcement. It's, you know, used to have a bylaw if you don't bother to do any enforcement if you can't afford to do any enforcement then maybe not the best use of resources. I mean, I was in Walsh when I was working with their PVPC was talking about this deconstruction movement. Do you want to explain that what that is Nate you know probably know more about that than I did. Yeah, I mean I you know I think. I think there's, you know, it's probably an intersection of both kind of sustainability and life cycle costs, and then also, you know, what's better than, you know, an alternative to demolition maybe reusing things and so, you know, actually having a bylaw on the books would be better than, you know, I have a little bit more regulatory teeth and say we can try to condition a demolition or something but you could call out certain parts of that and so yeah I mean it's interesting that I think that this could actually, like I said, probably work with a few communities on that to see where, you know, I think it could meet a few goals of different parts of the town, but that's basically it. You know, some of it would be again the funding mechanism for it and getting kind of a like a program in place or something but maybe also just talking with another community that has implemented one recently and kind of saying what their implementation is look like. Right. Yeah I was gonna say for instance like you know 45 and 55 self pleasant it's like, you know, we'd want the applicant to come back with the, you know, more documentation of the building so that could help if there was a bylaw in place. You know, even the building picture thinks we could do with our demolition bylaw but say if there was something here we could amend our bylaw to actually require certain documentation. I feel like a bylaw like this would be doing that right you'd you have to have pretty thorough documentation in order to move something like that forward but at least you'd have the documentation in hand. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking of the house that was demolished on on Main Street near the Well where the new apartments have gone up just down from the Emily Dickinson there were so many, you know, beautiful doors and cabinet doors and doorknobs and, you know, who knows where any of it went. That's a that's a little that that's a little heartbreaking to so. It appears that the house next door to that project is also now part of that project. Judging from as I pass back the numbers. There's, I could be wrong, but it seems that way but I think you're right Robin, there was a lot that could have been preserved. Yeah, and reused. Do you want to scroll down a little bit, Nate. Sir, there we go. Then outreach ideas. We talked about walking tours. Madeleine had mentioned something called James walks which are always get this wrong Jane Jacobs. May and weekend in May. It's sort of a nationwide invitation for communities to put on small informal history walks in their neighborhoods just to promote, promote the knowing of the past. Our barn outbuilding and assessment program, an event. I met with Jane Wald and Jan Mark Markert over dinner and I am trying to help Jan and to help him volunteer to try to get this barn event happening next May. And so one of the things that I wanted to ask you, Nate, is if it's possible for us to get some sort of mailing out to the properties that were on the barn and outbuilding survey that pvp seeded since we have. I could either if we have a list of, I know I have that report I'm not sure if there's an easy Excel spreadsheet to or I could just you know pull out strip out the the addresses but whether that's something that the town would consider doing to alert people to this program that's been unavailable for funding since July, but we haven't, we, we I haven't moved forward on actually fully promoting it and trying to get somebody into that their barn assessed so. Yeah I know I think yeah I mean it might we might just take a little bit of manual work at the mailing labels or you know I don't think there's a spreadsheet. But it's not too bad to you know be able to do that so. Yeah, Robin if you know we can work together and kind of get something going. You know this winter this you know the next month or two we could get a mailing out. Okay, and then the next thing that I would put on my list of things to do would be to to I know that I. I have a presentation with one assessor who he lives in the Pennsylvania area but he would you know if he had one or two, two, two, you know like suit two properties to visit and one weekend. He'd consider traveling up here, and then I worked with the New Hampshire Preservation Alliance they have a barn assessment program and I think Vermont does to so I can pick their brains about who might be able to be willing to have all so that we could, you know have a list of vendors available for people who are interested in the program because it's kind of not worth anything appropriate vendor. So, so that's that one of the ideas that I had was trying to create some sort of publicity I mean this is a really the National National Preservation Trust does. We have a top 10 endangered buildings. There are five to thrive lists I think preservation mast as one of those. And I was just thinking of, if there was something like that that we were interested in doing as members of the committee to, you know find maybe, maybe three three buildings just to highlight in Amherst. One of my favorites is the. Bar station building where the station used to be mass media used to be or Ambers media rather on route nine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that building. I think it really, you know it's just such a. It's such a strong facade that, you know kind of telegraphs it's, it's time period in a, in a way that's different from a lot of buildings in the center of town so that's that idea and then MHC has a preservation award nomination program and last year, maybe the year before I wanted to nominate simple gifts farm, and I don't know if they get like there's like, it's like, I think it's five years from when a preservation project completes. But that's something that we could consider. And maybe that's also like a five year plan because it's not like every year we're going to have a preservation project that's nomination worthy but commission related things I've been wanting to do it's get a training guide for commissioners together. And then also pull together a preservation funding guide so that when we have outputs looking for CPA funds we can also direct them to other sources so that we can maximize our, our funding. I'll go out in a survey to everybody and will be an opportunity for you to just put your notes into so. Thanks for taking a look at that. And now. Well we covered macros inventory a little bit Nate essentially one more thing a little graphic. I wanted to show everybody I managed to get a download of the macros inventory which includes the recording dates I did this for all the commissions in the Berkshires last summer and I thought it was such a fascinating way to look at the data. In the summer in the mid 90s I think MHC changed their inventory guidelines for what a form B should look like that's a basic inventory form. And anything before someone think before 1990 is definitely out of what they would consider out of D. If you look at this pie chart, you can see that first darker blue triangle, and the orange triangle that's from the 1970s of the 1980s. And so that's over 700 inventory forms that are considered out of date. We've actually got a good number in the was that the 2010s. So we're done some good updating some of those some of those properties might be update updated already but it still gives you a visual sense of what our inventory looks like and what ideally an updated inventory would be just like 1990s on so I just wanted to share that. And we can talk more about when we come up with our, our goals we can talk more about how we want to target research and prioritize things in terms of inventory updating. Do you have any thoughts on that Nate. That's a big number. Some of them are demolished. I mean it is it becomes apparent when, you know, if, you know, there's a demolition application or someone asked about a property and we have the paper copies on file and town hall and you pull out a form and there's just like a one sentence description on it, and you realize okay there really isn't a lot of research even though, you know we can say a lot of properties have an inventory they're documented a lot of times is pretty cursory or sometimes it's just a picture from the 60s or 70s. And that person's, you know, like a sentence on the family that live there at the time and so, you know, I think, yeah, it's too bad that, you know, there may be, maybe difficult to find primary sources at the same time a lot of things have been digitized and certain research is now made easier than it was 30 years ago. So, yeah, I think it is important I think at some point we have to, it'd be nice to look at some of those inventory forms or maybe do it thematically by areas of town or something and because start approaching it that way because, you know otherwise it's just seem really daunting when you look at how many there are. Yeah, yeah. I mean I know that Chris Kelly when I was working for him last summer, I mean he did something for, I don't know how many of these he's done but it's actually a. So right, so when you, when you set forth like we're doing in the East Village East Terms Village to do a survey, that's called a survey and you did the things that you create that those are the form base that become the inventory, but he does something called a survey plan where you were where he works to rank, or you know he in the community that he's working with work to rank, what's worth a deeper dive, you know so that if you. I mean, we talked about it in a paper in Clarksburg with a much smaller community, you know to sort of get them started on inventory and you'd have this plan as to, you know, well let's take a look at what your resources are they're they're tiny so that's a little bit more manageable but then you really then you figure out which ones you want to target first, you know so you get kind of a one, two and three. So I was thinking that might be something you know down the line that we might want to consider doing with all those forms that need updating was sort of like which ones are really critical and which ones. You know, are less so so that was a thought. So, I have a thought. When I represented the historical Commission with the sunset prospect Lincoln Avenue and got them jump started with all the form bees on North Pleasant Street of those buildings were concerned about. They as a as a local Commission assigned properties to each one of the commissioners to delve deeper. And so that may be a model that we could use with the other historic commissions, local commissions. But also, I have a throwback question 45 and 55 south prospect. Nate you forwarded us some some historical information on both of those buildings. Will that become part of the form be macros. What's going to happen to that information. Yeah, right now it just lives locally. And I think it would take. You know, we have to amend the form be and submit it. I think most of it's probably been verified, just, you know, take a little bit of work to kind of put it all kind of make it, you know, to tie it into the form be I think the narrative. The information could go in but then you know there's some miscellaneous notes and some other things for each property that, you know, we, you know, I'd have to, you know, just filter it a little bit. Right, but the developer we charge the developer with doing that. So, could they, as Barry Roberts and etc. But could they be responsible for doing what you just described. Yeah, I think I mean, I thought I did a follow up I wanted to help with them just to see where they are. Just to kind of remind them or talk through with you know the applicant and the attorney where what they could be doing. Right and we have been provided this information by a third party. And so if it's shared with them, they may be asked to take responsibility to finalize the form be incorporating all of it. So, can I jump in. And that's okay. I mean having written a historical and architectural description for form B is a PVPC. A narrative, a narrative historical narrative description. By the time I got done with working there took me about four hours I mean that's doing the research and writing it like you know if I'm working at a really good clip. I mean I know heady and I talked about maybe, you know one of the responsibilities of the commission would be to, you know kind of learn how to write these up in a way that MHC wants to see them. And when we get a demolition request, you know make a commitment as a commission to finalize, you know, a revised form B that's that's something that we want to do. And I think handing it off to different developers. I mean that's just not their training area. And my understanding is that MHC is, you know, pretty specific specific requirements on what they'd like to see. And you know now that I have a lot of experience with that I can certainly, you know, work with people and on, you know, kind of guide other commission members if they're interested in learning how to do that. And that's my only question about kicking something like that. Getting, getting research materials is fantastic from any, any source whatsoever. But we need to do something with it. And the question is, who, who does that, and we charge the developer with doing that as part of the delay. Maybe they need to consult with Mass Historical Commission and take that information to get it in a form that satisfies our request. Just a thought. Yeah, no, I'm just curious what Nate's thoughts are, because would they be submitted from the town or the developer or I mean, I, you know, it'd be more of my play, but I feel more comfortable doing it only because I think, you know, I probably, you know, I agree Robin that they don't have enough that I have great training myself but more than them. And I think I would could, you know, I often will communicate with Mass Historic just as on different projects. I think I'd have had to have a better relationship and ability to do that. But I'd ask them to do a little bit more documentation. I think that's something we could incorporate into it. So, you know, some of it would be, you know, are there other photographs or other things that we could attach and wait for that to all be sent as one updated form. And I think that's a good point. Not to jump the gun, but because I know it's on the agenda. But I walked by 45 self pleasant the one with all the artwork on the outside the murals. And I would like to see a structural report for that building. I mean that's in decent shape. It's in really decent shape. And I don't know why we didn't ask for that before. In fact, because it's a little concerning to me that we may have jumped the gun and just given them a six month delay, you know, with documentation, but a principal piece of documentation could be, you know, the request to prove certain things about the condition of that building in order to demolish it. Yeah, so, you know, after I'm sorry to push the agenda because I know it's coming but I think, you know, timeout inventory forms I think that after you know after the hearing I was speaking with the building commissioner and it could be that we would want to change the bylaw. We just you know how to amend it for the preservation bylaw but we could put in there what we would want what what are required forms or documentation to be able to consider a demolition application complete. And, you know, we do it with other boards and committees it sometimes it's, it's difficult to keep pushing it but it could be that it is, you know, you don't want to put a burden, you know, there's a range right there's homeowners who don't have a lot of resources or, you know, and then there's a developer or a project that might but, you know, is right how how do we make it a prerequisite that there be a say a structural engineers report or better documentation or a completed inventory form or something and so, you know, I was going to say if we make those a requirement, we still have the option to waive the requirement right that as opposed to trying to think of what you might need when you have a list in front of you so if you have, you know, you know, whatever the, you know, the women's that doesn't have you know that that kind of money to throw around or yeah. Yeah, no, you're right and so I think some of it could be written into the rules and regs of the commissioner or in the bylaw. And then the building commissioner also thought it could be, you know, and, you know, we often will allow kind of just to go ahead he just said, the commission could vote to allow demolition, only if and after these five things were and it would have to be reviewed and say approved by the commission right so the conditions could be that if there is a photographic documentation there's measured drawings there's an inventory form or whatever. You know the, the, you know, the hard part there is you know is like would the applicant do the research to get it done. And then what do you do with like, you know, does it change their opinion or not. Or do we just start you know do we issue a delay and still try to require that, you know, and it's a tricky thing right, you know, we, you could make you know you could tie those things to an earlier. That's, you know, earlier permit, you know, so you will pose a 12 month delay with no documentation. You know the documentation and they get the permit. Or he was saying that, you know, the military saying well list the really the all the things you want and then basically, it might take them 10 months to get it anyways and then they could demolish it as long as the commission approves of all the documentation. But it's hard I feel like it's, it's we're still kind of at the same end game and it'd be nice to try to figure out what is there some other way. Right. So let's put that on a, can we put that on a agenda item next meeting and maybe more does it does the. I think it's worth discussing. Yeah, no, we're discussing going for does the bill is the building commissioner the building commissioner want to come and talk to us about it. I'll talk to Rob a bit more. You know, we're just sort of what would be the most, it's such it's, it's so challenging. I think because our town is so small. You know, having an effective using using the demolition delay tool effectively. Another thing that I, I, you know, and if he is regretting one thing I'm sort of regretting the possibility that we could ask for design review, if you sort of forget, we don't have the power to require design review, but we do have the capacity to ask for it in exchange for an earlier delay so that's another thing for concern about what comes next fitting in within the historic character, not in terms of use not what comes next. You know, there's, I just think there's a lot of strong opinion about student housing around here and that's you know, I don't think that that's our purview but but design review in terms of the historic context is. And so that's one possibility that we could think about. But it's almost like, you know, this is another thing that I've been meaning to sit down and sort of like, how would you draw the map of, you know, how to effectively use demolition delay. In terms of these things, you know, the flow chart of like, you know, what, what do you want to require and, and what do you want to ask for to get the best outcome. Right yeah so right so the building commissioner saying that you know if you issue a commission issues a delay. An applicant might just wait out the delay and really not do a great job of the documentation other things that the commission had asked for. The delay expires or he said you can allow demolition conditional upon, you know, these requirements and a delay can't happen at all until the building commissioner has been notified that they've been met and it could actually take longer than a year right so You have to you have to we want completed inventory form right we want all those things. Maybe Robin what you just mentioned some whatever right and those, you know, schematic drawings of what's to be, you know, the new building. Right. You know, something and then he, you know his thought was at least then we get some documentation or research out of it. Right. Yeah, let's put this on the agenda for the future I think it's definitely worth pursuing. Yeah. Okay. So we were on macros inventory, and then we went toward 4555, but we were looking for a town common update, and I, in particular, was curious about the fountain, which I know heady and I talked about and he wrote about for the indie. So it has this really interesting backstory of being this historical moment where so we have this fountain. Where is the family. It's lost. No. It's actually it's in storage so you know for just a quick update you know the town common right outside town hall if you haven't seen it you know it's under under construction and the idea was is has been for a while to remove the parking hall put in kind of like a grass amphitheater. So new walkways, a central sitting area. You know new lighting new everything and the fountain to also would get its own little plaza with the ideas to have some sitting around it and interpretive material. And so it would go back. Pretty similar to its location where it was before. Yeah, okay. And so, yes, just for the other members of the pension. I was researching a found there's a I was researching a little park in Springfield when I was a PVC that has like four or five different monuments took like wars and then it was this fountain. And when you had the name willard associated with it when I was looking for newspapers, I was like well these willard funds are showing up everywhere like who's this willard person. I was it was Francis Willard, and these were temperance fountain. As a way of promoting the temperance movement, which, as I read about it now occurred to me how much of a kind of a, I always thought of temperance is sort of like a no fun social movement. And really, it was a really profoundly feminist approach to the problem of women who did not have control of the spending and their households, and their husbands. If they had drinking problems, or that they would not only spend their household money, but also you know the behavioral issues that came along with that and women who couldn't get divorced or earn their own incomes. Temperance was a way of addressing what was a really, really a women's issue around problem drinking. And so these, there were there all these fountains came out I think there might be one in Belcher town there's one in Springfield. And there's a website where an intern pulled together them all over the country and I mean I never I've never even saw it was it was out before the, the, the construction it was out there I mean I don't think I ever noticed it. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's not yeah. When we say fountain I mean it's a smaller kind of monument it's not. There were drinking fountains. Yeah, all of that. Yeah. And that was the idea that you would get a cool drink of water, you know it was this this metaphor for, for the temperance movement and that some of them also had troughs for, for dogs. At like different heights for very cool. Yeah, I thought yeah yeah so with the plan is to celebrate it. I had a picture somewhere. Yeah so it would, yeah, oh yeah here it is only on. I'll share my screen. If that's visible. Yeah. Yeah, I know I think yeah it's, you know, it wasn't, it was the first thing removed you know it was carefully stored and so it would, it'll go back. You know we, the town has, you know there's a land water conservation fund grant that's supporting the renovation of the town common. And so the hope is that it would be done by next July one. And so, you know, they're the contractor will probably stabilize the site over the winter. And there's a lot of granite curbing and other things that granted spent on a month, you know, many months back quarter. And so, we'll probably reach a stopping point so what was happening now is they're doing all utilities a pretty utilities underground. So new drainage electrical will have all the lighting. You know they moved a flagpole, actually both flagpoles will be moved. Sorry, you're muted. Sorry, is there specific drainage for the fountain because I think at one point there were, there were some problems with the pipes in the fountain itself and that was one of the reasons it got removed. I hope I have that right. Yeah, I'm hoping that they are they thinking about that. That's what I want to be sure about. Yeah, I think I thought it was, let me make a note. I, I thought they'd do is to get it working again and have all the right plumbing so you know like, you know right put a, yeah, so. Thank you. That would be great. Yeah. Yeah, I think it'll be really nice when it's done. You know, it's not just all the really cool stuff that Robin was talking about with the fountain. It's also that the roads in Amherst when that fountain went in were completely different from the way they are now they were really dusty roads. The idea of a cool drink of water is, is sort of part of that idea that, you know, you, you know, you got out of your buggy or your got off your horse, and, and there is this sort of attempt to, to, you know, create a salve within a civic framework that, that idea very compelling. You know that that that that Amherst wanted to be included in the towns or places that had those kinds of WTCU fountains as well. But some of the historic photographs I've looked at the main roads in Amherst were, you know, really rutted they were like sort of rural roads up in the hill towns, you know that aren't Tom act on anything. So I think fountains made more sense when we think of them in that context and I see this as a lovely, a lovely spot where people could learn about the history of Amherst Center, as it's historically known, you know. It's not just that we've taken out all the parking, but we have all this other history that we want to share with you. Okay, anything else about the town common project. We talked about barn tours and assessments so we can move forward from that. Follow up with the Jones library. I know I had a question for you, because we did our regulatory duty in terms of the preservation restriction and the exterior building but I was hoping that we would have a return to interior changes, particularly given how productive our conversation was with the architects. And there were certainly some questions that we had, and, like in particular there was one room where they were talking about removing these beautiful divider doors and and the question about where things, how things will be salvaged where they will go that kind of thing. Yeah, I need to follow. I need to follow up with that actually I and then. I'm going to go down there because we had asked for a few submittals or they said they have samples. Yeah, review for the preservation restriction one where the windows in terms of, you know, true divided light or simulated divided light, and there's one of the things that we wanted that they said they could provide to us I was going to circle back with them. Did they have some synthetic slate to maybe. Yeah, I mean when was it Marty Smith mentioned that the visitor center you mask was synthetic slate I looked at it on Google Street view and then I went by and then you know, it's like wow okay it's it's really well. I can't believe she said it's a few to say it was like, almost 30 years old and it's, it really has aged well. Which is interesting because I worked on a house, you know, doing stonework for a house in Long Meadow, and this is years ago but you know million dollar renovation they use really what they thought was top of the line said that a slate and it cup and warped pretty quickly. So, you know, I spoke with some of the building inspectors and they said yeah that's like that had been the case, but you know Amherst College is using it now and they think that it's, you know they've, they've improved, improved it and so. I think they have it's just one of those things you know. Robin. Years later. Yeah. They're warranty verse, you know, it's really, it's really hard to get at what the cost benefit of that compared to a slate but. Yeah, it'd be nice to I can follow up with that. The interior and then you know they said they're going to have some right materials the middles and samples. Does anybody have any other comments about following up on the Jones Library project. I must also our liaison to the design review board so I get it from both sides. I mean thank you for your service. I am very happy to do that. Any further comment on 45 and 55 South Pleasant Street at this point. I'd emailed the research that Mr Wilford had conducted and some of it had been both the properties were part of a, you know display at the historical society a few years ago and so he said he had hoped to get it to us before the hearings but he hadn't. And so what was that at least the buildings will be celebrated before they came down so he said you know he understands there's change and things happen but it'd be nice to, you know celebrate them whether it's more documentation or even have like a public, something public just to, you know reference them again so. My yeah my question I mean it's, you know, I don't want to beat a dead horse I just don't. I have a hard time with the history is understanding. There was, you know the buildings that. So just in terms of 55 so the little brown one is 55 larger one is just in terms of 45 that. There was a building there that burned to the ground. The building that we see now replaced it. 1878 was the fire. And then when did the annex come in. And so like these questions about Sweetser Hall. Was it in the block. South pleasant street was it in the annex was it before the fire was I mean the historical documentation that I've seen references it before the fire. And so it's a building burned down and we're talking about a different building in the same place, you know, I mean it will be great for the foreign be. My biggest question was just, you know, had he had those pictures and I haven't been able to get over to get a look at that room with that arched ceiling and just really ponder. What was going on there what did that was concert hall or you know so there's just kind of some confusion about what came first and when and what happened in which building because the annex looks to me like it was just, it was just part of storage for the store but it has that funky little room. So. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's hard to. I think the 55 the one on the street, the red doors lawn building right so that had burned it was rebuilt as a one story, but minute kind of the proud overhang, the recess entry and then it, you know that was one story and then it changed its form again and you know I think probably. I don't think it was I don't think that it was demolished I think it's probably added on to so I think the structure that's there is probably the bones of it are from the 18, you know late 70s early 80s. And it was built the first thing the first floor facade was meant to mimic what was there before but it's really not the same building. It's kind of interesting that's why I, you know, it'd be nice to have a little bit more documentation of the interior and the foundation or you know something that could try to show us what what's happened. The building in the back you know Ed Wilford's research, I was going to see if I thought I downloaded they're all all such big files I was having trouble today. The 45, you know what I find difficult to is. I think Robin we talked about this with the demolition of the properties on Southeast Street, you know, the three homes that we looked at a while ago is that if the title indeed research stops. You know you can make a story that ties it all together but it's hard to to ground it in. In anything. And so, let me just share my screen so I think what. Yeah, so I mean I think and the other thing that was that you know there weren't newspapers and Amherst right until the mid 19th century and so it's hard to. You know it was saying it's hard to carry some of this forward but for 45 South by them this is the brick building buying Hastings. You know he's saying that he's pretty sure this is you know from a student at Amherst College at this building right here. And so I think what that cursor is, is the is the current building today and now you know the street is now in front of it with all the new buildings right save the churches and shown. And so, you know that. So which building are we talking about every time the annex to 45 or 55. Yeah, 45. Okay. Is the one that's, you know, behind Hastings so now you know now we have you know Hastings first before what's in front of it. Okay, what year is that picture from. That's interesting. I did look at this but I just didn't make. Yeah, I thought there was a date as a little thing I'd have to look. I thought I thought my annotations were deleted. So yeah I mean, it is interesting that the, the buildings would be made would be brought in front of it I mean they did, they did move buildings. But it's just it's those are these are the things that you know are really, you know, hard to. Right. Yeah. Okay, there is a drawing there's some newspaper articles. There's you know some deed. Right, I mean, and then they're all the maps. Right. Yeah. Reflect. I mean, a lot of times they reflect the basic shape of buildings. But it can be challenging. I mean, I do think that the roof is interesting. You know, it's like you don't want to ask an applicant but maybe Barry would be willing like would he go in there and do a little exploratory demolition just to see what's what's there, because you know is there a little more proof that maybe there was a stage or something. Right, right, or anybody with an architectural background who can talk about why you'd have a ceiling like that. Because it's weird. So I mean I think it is it's just interesting. Yeah, I mean to me it's like okay. I just there's a hard it's hard to make that that definitive connection and say yes. But I think I like I like the research that's happening and yeah I'll reach out I have a note here to reach out to Tom and Barry just to. Okay. Yeah, I mean if we could get in there too. I'd love to do it. It's like does it, you know, I'll bring my fat I'll bring my five pounds sledgehammer and safety goggles. One of my classmates had this like, you know, camera thing where you could just drill a hole and you can, you know, it's like Arthur's copy but for buildings, so that you don't have to. Right, right, right. I think one of the building inspectors have they have something like that. Yeah, there's there's there could be there could be love letters back there it's happened before. The drawing. I'm just, I'm guessing I'm, this is off the top of my head here. That looks like it's an early 19th century drawing. I was going to say early to mid 19th century I forgot. Yeah, that's a, I'm just guessing. And you see that the building which is the Greek revival, you know, Gable front building, it has a staircase an exterior staircase going up to the second floor. What about that. Right. In relation to 55. Right and that's the brick in part. That's there now. And ironically, even in the earlier documentation of the Hastings building after it was constructed. They always talked about an exterior rear staircase, even Hastings building which is really interesting. And it's there now and I'm like, huh. Is that really like how old is some of that. Some of that exterior stuff I mean I was looking at it afterward and some of the metal is go is into the brick and I'm like, I wonder if that is actually, you know, 150 year old steel beam that they've been replaced wood on over the years but it looks, and I was looking at it like it looks like it's actually part of the structure of the building. Yeah, just take a little bit more looking around. Yeah. Kayla also had a good point. Last time we talked about this with all of the artwork on that building there are at least three different murals there by different people they look like they're, you know different hands behind the work minds. So, you know, I think that's a that's something else that needs documenting as part of what has come to be called the sort of the groovy the groovy era in Amherst. Yeah, do you want to let us know if we can do a site visit me. That would give us an opportunity to take pictures inside and out. I think then I think then some of this stuff make more sense here to see, you know that you can actually be in the, in the space and imagine it being used by a fraternity at Amherst College for all sorts of interesting dramas and events from that time period. Okay, any other comments folks. Okay, so we have come to public comment as we have two attendees. If anyone is interested in making a public comment at this time please raise your electronic hand, not seeing any hands being raised so there's no public comment at this time. Any unanticipated items from commissioners or Nate. Alright then. With that I guess we can actually should schedule our next meeting before we adjourn. So, have you on the CPA committee but I have not looked closely at the meeting and the agendas do we have a sense of when deliberations start just thinking in terms of if any, any applicants would want to come before the historical commission. There would be a case to be making, you know, maybe having our next meeting the fourth of December. Yeah, and I, I have the meeting packet but I actually didn't see the schedule. I think Holly maybe sent that out separately. Yeah I think that would actually probably. I was thinking later but I think right the fourth would probably make sense because it would be way too long than the CPA process. It'll be over. Yep. I guess. One, one, two, we both meet Thanksgiving. The one thing I would say conflict wise is I run the law review at Amherst and we have a speaker on the fourth so I might not be able to come. The conflicts are only for the neck for basically only till the 18th of December that all the Mondays are fine, like for the rest of the year. And we could do a Tuesday or for instance it would be great. I don't know if it's Friday or the other day but I also like don't want to like, it's only if it's. Yeah, so to do it Tuesday I was just, I'm in Boston Tuesdays and Wednesdays but I've sort of settled into a routine. I wasn't really sure. I'll be very sleepy. Counting up the 430 but Tuesday is possible as well. Okay sorry for the complication. Oh no no it's fine it's fine. You're out because that's CPI so and Wednesdays, I'm driving back so that's not a good day so just Tuesday work for you name. Are we talking about the fifth. Yeah. Yeah that would work. Okay. Yeah I can do that as well. That work for you Pat and heady. I might have to leave from. I've got a conflict that starts at semi me too. Okay. Oh you also have a conflict on the fifth. Every Tuesday I have choir practice. Okay. So getting to, we need four of us for quorum. So maybe the fourth is better without Antonia but with everybody else. Okay. So we have to start with that and had he leaving it. Right. At least seven that basically means no meeting on the fifth. I can meet on the fourth. Okay. And how do you, okay. Okay. It will, it's going to be from seven to eight, which is. Okay. I guess we could start the meeting earlier at six if you want to do some business from six to seven. Okay. Okay. I don't know. Since they're traveling here, I have to like greet them. And such, but it's sorry. I'll just won't come for that meeting, but I'll be here for the rest of the. The rest of the year. It's okay. It's hard balancing every schedule. Especially in the holidays. So. So we're going to meet on the fourth at one time please. Next 30. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So we can recognize. Oh, yep. So we can recognize. I can unmute yourself. Can you hear me? Yes. You. Welcome. Identify yourself to the committee. Hi, everyone. My name is. I'm from Amherst. Zion. And I was asked from CPA committee. To attend tonight's meeting for specific reason. Sam from CPA chair. Asked us to discuss with the historical commission. And we see the guidance for the proposal. On a roofing material. Okay. So I think the question. At hand is that. And Nate, you can probably weigh in better than me on this, but. The North Amherst church. Currently has a slate. Does it have a slate roof on one side? Is it slate both sides? Most of the part has a slate on it. But somehow. Small portion is asked for single. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. And so the question is. What. Roofing materials would be. Both allowable and, you know, and, and like probably the best economical choice. I think that. In their proposal, there was. An argument made that asphalt could be considered a historical. So I think that's what the roof from historic pictures has gone through a bunch of different. Roof types. And. I think we just wanted maybe some guidance from the historical commission, although I don't know that I'm prepared to give it. Maybe you could weigh in a little bit more. And. Addressing that issue. Nate. I think it would be okay with. The church, I think. The church, right? Probably it was originally a. A wooden shingled roof. And then it was over time. You know, there's been asphalt is probably been a rolled roof and then there's slate. And so it's probably had a few different roof. Roofing materials. You know, the CPA committee would say, you know, they, they wonder if. If they had to do it. If they had to do it. If they had to do it. If they had to do it. If they had to do it. And so the application is to, you know, part of it's some of the roof is failing. So some of the Perlins and the structural members and the roof. And the timber framing have failed. There's raw. And so the slate. The idea. I don't know. For newer members, they. Had requested funding last year to try to fix the slate. And the CPA committee said, well, we'll hold some money and reserve until there's more information about what's available. So the idea was to. Look at different ways of. Fixing the roof or parts of it or what material. And so the idea is to use asphalt shingles. Could be architectural shingles to have some relief. And look somewhat stylistically like. You know, slate or some overlapping material, individual shingles. What is them? What is architectural. What did you call it? Architectural. Architectural shingles. So. You just like, you can have a Nassau shingle that's flat. And then you can have some that are, that they're layered. So they just. You know, they have a little bit more relief to them. So it looks like they're. I can Google a picture. So yeah, I, you know, it's interesting. I. When we were talking about the Jones library. I think it was the Jones library. You know, someone may, maybe Jane Walden made the comment that, you know, You know, You know, You know, It's newer materials lighter. So it's actually easier structurally on a, on a building because you're not carrying the weight. Yeah, that's correct. That's what I heard also. Right. And so. You know, even a local historic district allows the use of asphalt shingles as a substitute for different roofing materials. So I feel like it's a, I think it's a, I think it's okay. You know, I think it's okay to meet national park standards. You know, is it, is it as part of a rehabilitation project? Is it. You know, is it compatible? You know, it's a, it is a new material, but like I said, I think the roofing material on the church has undergone changes throughout the history of the building. So. You know, I think it's, I think it's okay. I also think that. I rock the slope of the roof and the visibility of it. You know, I think the visibility of the roof from the street is minimal actually. So you're, you actually have to be a somewhat of a distance away to be able to see the roof. So, you know, you keep, you're actually not on the street in front of it or on pine street next to it. You actually have to, you're going to be further back along. North pleasant street or. Down on Meadow street and you might see it at an angle. So. I think given the kind of the low visibility of the roof. You know, I think that's probably okay. So I don't, you know, I don't, you know, I'm not sure. I think. We were going to have you and other CPA applicants come. Before the commission on December 4th, two and talk about your proposal a bit more. And then there's time to get before the CPA committee, before the recommendation. So the commission often will write a memo or something or. You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, through the wrap just discuss the project. So. I think you have to come back, but. Yeah. And I'm part of maybe part of what our memo can state is, you know, if we just give a, if we can get some basic history to. You know, the roof changes over time. I mean, it's all, it all, it all has to do with, you know, what is essentially the park services, the secretary to your standards. Right. You know, you know, you know, it all means that we need to document that. Historically at one point in time. Had an asphalt roof. Or, you know, or. You know, a waiver for, for. You know, for tense consideration of. I mean, this is the tricky part with it. The standards is like, you know, you're supposed to do this, but then the park service lets you do, you know. Artificial slate, like they'll make an exception. You know, you know, just very briefly explain our reasoning from the commission to say, yeah, this meets with. This week meets with the historic. Fabric of, of building a discerned period of time and then, then that's just kind of like crossing the keys and dotting the eyes. I learned the process of smetting application getting estimate. I did contact the two company who specializing slay. And one, I get in touch with them again. He's no longer accepting job. He's planning on retire. Other person who give us estimate on 300 and $315,000. Yeah, yeah. Slay roof. Says he will not do partial replace slay on our church roof. So we kind of, you know, binding situation. Yeah, mostly. So that before we could, you know, present our case once more to December 4 to commission. Okay. I think that this is an interesting one. I think the structure is really important. It doesn't need to be preserved. You know, we've met with town staff has met with seek young and. Other representatives from the church a few times over the last year. And I think that's, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, the church a few times over the last year. And yeah, I mean, this, a slate slate roof is, it's really interesting. There are very few craftsman, you know, press persons who'll do this work anymore. It's very expensive. Yeah. And then, and it probably wasn't actually the original roof to the building, which, you know, it's hard to, if you see that now, you say, Oh, that slate's been on there since it was built, but it actually probably wasn't. And I think there's some documentation that I wasn't. Okay. So, um, next meeting. We decided was. Uh, December. Monday, December 4th. I was starting 630 again. Yes. Okay. And with that. There are no further comments from. Any further comments from the commissioners or staff. We can adjourn the meeting at 833. Thanks. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Bye. Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you.