 Good evening, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us tonight, especially given the snow. And thank you for quickly accommodating us as we move this event online. So you are here for the criminal lawyers of color panel hosted by the Dalhousie criminal law students Association. This event is in partnership with the Dalhousie Black Law Black Law Students Association, the Dalhousie Indigenous Law Students Association and the Dalhousie Asian Law Students Association. So all four of our groups have worked together to find the panelists for this evening and to create questions that will be asked. Just for reference, my name is Sierra Matteo, I am a 3L student and the current co-chair of the DC LSA. First, I'd like to begin by acknowledging that Dalhousie University is located in Mignahi, the ancestral and unceded territory of the Mignahi. Today and every day we are all treaty people. So tonight we will be joined by Brandon Roll, who is senior legal counsel at the African Nova Scotia Justice Institute. Yan Liu, Crown Attorney with the Nova Scotia Public Prosecution Service. And while we were supposed to be joined by Michael William MacDonald, Mi'kmael lawyer. He unfortunately is not here currently but if he does join in, I'll be sure to note that as well. So without further ado, I am more than happy to turn this event over to our moderator for this evening. Hi everyone, so I'm Faith and I am part of the criminal association as careers VP, but I'm also part of Dalsa as external VP. And I am going to be moderating our panel today. So I'm going to start off with kind of a general question and any of the panelists can answer any questions that I bring up unless it's specified to a specific panelist. These questions were made in conjunction with all of these societies. And here we go. So, for either one of you, did you see yourself practicing criminal law when you started law school and if not, what was the path you took to get here. I can start so good evening everyone. It's too bad we weren't able to be together in person but I'm glad we were able to pivot and do this virtually. I definitely did not see myself practicing criminal law when I was in law school. I took a kinesiology degree. So, at that point, I thought I was going to be a gym teacher, you know, nine to two summers off seemed like a good career. And then I had Michelle Williams, former director of the IBM, IBM initiative come to Acadia to recruit for the IBM initiative. And she sort of stirred something in me to, I guess, help me think about law school, and I ended up applying getting in. And even when I got in I thought sports agent, you know that's that's a really cool job that you can do if you have a law degree. And then the further I looked into that I realized it was mostly just contracts, which wasn't my favorite so I didn't have a ton of criminal experience throughout law school I did criminal trial practice which was really cool I didn't end up getting in any of the clinics which I would highly recommend having been on the other side of that as a mentor. So my, and then I article that a really small firm that did real estate law. And so, that was a great way to figure out that I didn't want to do real estate law. And so, my first real exposure to crime came through a small firm called Newton and associates. And it was really well regarded lawyers who did a lot of cream work. And they actually had the cells contract and Dartmouth so anyone who came in and was seeking bail. You know our firm took care of that and it was really eye opening in terms of being on the ground in the court, every day, seeing people at sort of their highest level of need. So, criminal law was attractive to me in law school I didn't really know what it was to practice criminal law until I started doing it so I think that would be one of my suggestions to folks if they're interested is to actually get out shadow volunteer, go to court see what it's actually like to practice but I fell in love right away because, you know, first of all I don't know why everyone went to law school but for me it was this fundamental idea of helping people and that really came to life in law. And, you know, there's a there's a beginning and an end so in some place, you know some places in the law, like family law, for example, it's very difficult subject matter not that cream isn't. But in family law to me it seemed like wow this can just keep going, you know, on and on and on and and crimson have had that defined beginning and ending. And that appealed to me as well. And even though you might get 100 definitely under files, you know let's use that as an example, every file is going to be complex and nuanced and different because of the people that are involved so it's really sort of just this exciting field to me anyway that you know I've never lost interest in. Thank you so much for that answer and what about you and so for me definitely not actually when I started law school I said I don't know what I want to do but I know I definitely don't want to do criminal or family. So I'm eating my words now. So I didn't. So, Brendan, and I don't know each other but I know you by name Brendan. And I didn't know that you had a background in kinesiology my degree is actually in physiology, my undergrad degree. So also life science. So, you know law was really not very much on my radar at all. And then after I did my undergrad I worked for a number of years in the community so I was doing outreach work with immigrant and refugee populations. So, just doing like support work for folks and then eventually kind of made my way to law school but I still wasn't really sure like I applied for social work programs. I thought I wanted to go back to school right and then I kind of made a decision this summer before law school to pursue law instead of like cancer psychology or social work the other things I was thinking about. And then once I started law school. I again didn't know what I wanted to do except that I thought that I wanted to avoid both criminal and family law. And then I ended up getting hired in the one hour recruit for a summary position which I just summary position. I applied just to, to try to see what would happen and then I got hired by one of the corporate firms and how that so then I was kind of on that path from that point I have my articles. You know planned out to there so actually throughout law school the only course I ever took relevant to criminal law was like criminal law in one L, and I took evidence in three L. So that's it. And then I did some mooting. I did a competitive mood and the compulsory minutes of course so through that I knew that I liked litigation, like realize throughout that process that I enjoyed that. But beyond that I really didn't know what I wanted to do if there's no lawyers in my family, I'm a one and a half generation immigrant which means that I am great at Canada with my family but when I was a child. So it was really just, you know, I didn't know anyone in law school didn't know anyone really in the profession so just figuring out myself. So anyway so did my summary, throughout law school and article. And then after that was looking for a change looking for something different. So I actually took some time off after that just to like, like a heal psychologically from law school and from articles. And then I saw this job posting come up at the crowns office. And at the time there's and I thought okay maybe I'll try working for government maybe I'll try getting out of private practice and all its ups and downs, etc, and try working for government. And I remember at the time there was this posting at the crowns office and there was a posting at DOJ so the civil litigation side. And that the DOJ posting I was going to apply to like it, you know, I wasn't leaning towards Kerm or step one direction or the other. And it was just that the DOJ posting was like a little while later the deadline was a little later. And I entered at the crowns office and then I got this offer for this job. So that's how I ended up here so really a very winding path. But, I mean there's ups and downs to what I do now but I do enjoy it and I find that there is an immediacy to it like there's a relevance. There's a relevance to criminal law that you don't see so much in civil law or civil litigation. And I think that aspect of it is actually much more similar to my background and where I'm coming from my work experience, like that aspect of helping people and you know what I was thinking of when I was thinking of pursuing social work, and so on. So, yeah, I have more thoughts I'll try to try to keep it there for just the first question. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's actually very interesting because a lot of the criminal association, I think, from one L, they are like oh criminal criminal criminal law. And then you see all these practitioners who don't start off with like criminal backgrounds or criminal interests and then they end up in the crowns office or legal aid so that's really interesting to see. The question that we have here is how does your position as a person of color lawyer impact your approach and strategies in criminal law. So, I mean it's an interesting question I think we all come into the practice with, you know, our identities. And for me that's, that's part of my identity. Being black, growing up in Nova Scotia. You know it's not something you can be separated from so I think you come into the practice with a certain lens through your life experience but it was also bolstered for me by, you know, the IBM initiative and, you know, some of the profs like Michelle Williams, who sort of infuse this idea about educating us about the real historical context in Nova Scotian and the relationship between African Nova Scotians and the law here. When I come out of school, sort of feeling this duty to get back to community, and that's really been an enriching part of my practice so it informs, it informs my practice every day it informs, you know, the way I look at files and informs how I talk to crowns how I try to persuade judges, you know what I look for in files, how I deal with clients how I listen to clients. It's a huge part of my everyday practice and I think more and more that's being infused in sort of the general education at law school which is a good thing we're learning about critical race and, you know, I think there's an argument to be made that the law itself has has sort of perpetuated systemic racism and it's, you know, our collective job to try to remediate that. Absolutely thank you so much for the answer and yeah. Absolutely. So I think you know who you are dictates everything that you do, and both how you approach it and how other people approach you, right and how people see you. So I think being a racialized lawyer. Having that intersectional identity is a real benefit to me. And again in like the immediacy in our work in criminal law just like the, the closeness like these are the things that affect people's lives. And I think having, you know, whatever your intersection is just having any kind of lived experience that separates you from like the dominant culture, like bad narratives right like having experienced any kind of oppression based on your identity. It allows you to be open to understanding the experiences of other people who have had, you know, other challenges, even if those are things that you've experienced themselves right just like having that lived experience having that lens that competency from your own life. And you know it doesn't have to be like an exact match where it's not as expensive and things as you, but I think there's definitely an advantage perspective there, which is why it's so important that we don't know that we have real diversity in in firms but especially in like the way the crown so we don't just have a bunch of white guys. And that's the whole thing. I really love how you both framed that question into more of a positive experience rather than how some people might view it as a negative experience within the legal system and in law school in general a lot of people find it very difficult to be in that situation with all the different lived experiences because it sets us apart, but it also does make us have a different perspective in some ways that I guess is almost not able to be the same for others who haven't had not had not those experiences so thank you so much. Kind of funny little question here was, what are some common misconceptions about practicing criminal law. That's a great question. I think one of the things that you know even in my, I have three young boys so even in my household this this conception that there's good and bad you know the police catch the bad guys or if you even if you're in defense work you are doing work for the good guys but really we just operate in this gray area that's all about context and circumstances and people's lived experiences so that was a real eye opener for me. You know the extent to which there's there's always a different side to the story, and you do really have to stay open to that. The other piece that caught me off guard was the amount of people management that goes on like really, you have this idea coming out of law school that oh if I know the case I know the law. You know that's all I need and it's really most of the job is managing client expectations, negotiating with crown attorneys if you're defense and vice versa, persuading the judge you know oral argument. Coming up with a bail plan and reaching out to family members to coordinate that so there's just a lot of people management skills that really if you can sort of master those or get good at those at least. You can be quite an effective advocate on behalf of your client, of course the law and the research and preparation is always going to be important. But yeah that was I think a misconception for me at least coming out of school is that you know if you know that side of it the law and the argument, you'll be fine but it's much more than that. Let me echo what grandson in terms of. It's kind of all encompassing there's more to it than just the law itself and I feel like that's more. So the case in criminal law than in the civil art which where I don't have a ton of experience by did have my article and summary experience there. And I was thinking about it misconceptions. Honestly, I don't know what conceptions I did have. Before I got into this. So everything was a surprise in that sense. So I'll talk a little bit about the actual experience of doing this job right I think. One thing is, it's very like you need a wide skills that. As a crown. And you need to be able to handle a lot of different things coming at you at the same time. So a typical day in court where you have the docket so you might have like a few trials on the docket matters for sentencing status replay, etc. It's a lot of people who are showing up, but then subpoena that you have to deal with so you have to manage them meet with the people that you need to go down to court. You have to go down to the judge and, you know, to ask for more time to do something what have you, and then something might come up where you have to research like a point of law or call someone to try to figure it out. So it's, they're very intense days in court at that sense and very demanding on several different fronts so not just from the legal side but also just like logistically and emotionally handling everything and trying to make the experience. as palatable as it can be for, you know, complainants or witnesses, folks were there. So it's very, it's very demanding, and there's a lot to it, and I think it's a very human endeavor there's a lot of humanity that is on display on a typical day and provincial court. Yeah, for sure. And it also is the most, you know, the most core time that you'll have, I think. You know, as a, as a new lawyer and I feel like I'm ready to tell me what you think but I feel like crowns are important more than defense counsel. Maybe. Maybe I you know when I started at legal aid, I was in court pretty much every day. So it's, it's different in terms of, you know, the approach you you might come into court with four or five boxes of files and I might come into court with 10 files but that's 10 people. You know, we've done all the sort of background work with. So, yeah, it's different but the exposure is amazing, I guess I would say that. I would add probably that you're, you're not going to see a lot of those moments in court where you catch the witness sort of lying on the stand, you know those moments in court. Sometimes and they're great when they happen but it's more of a grind, you know, it's a steady build towards the argument that you're making and you know there's a few of those moments like I said but it's not like what you would see on TV, but it is the best part of the job because it's so dynamic, because you know you're you have to be quick on your feet, you have to react to how the witnesses is answering questions in the box. Things always come up the day of trial there's last minute negotiation so it's sort of this really exciting environment. I don't know, provincial court is also just a bit of a zoo. Generally, it's sort of wild in there and so it adds this dynamic of you know it's high stress but it's also kind of exciting kind of fun and you know at the end of the day hopefully rewarding. Honestly, when I saw this question I thought that you two would answer with there's actually some money in criminal law and it's not like all bad over here. Like, I think a lot of students have the misconception that you cannot make money in criminal law and I have learned the opposite from a lot of criminal practitioners and they're like no you can. There's some stuff here that you can have a very solid base for financial reasons I was like, I was thinking about that one but I guess no one else chimed in with that one. And since you raised it and perhaps it is on other folks mind as well. I can, you know, I can't speak for legal aid or I think will be different working in private practice as defense counsel that certainly at the crowns office. The pay I mean it's, it's all publicly available so you can just search for the crown attorney's agreement, Google it and you'll see it. You negotiated a few years where the crowns went on strike and I don't know if you guys know that, but to bring the pay for junior counsel to have some parity with the, like the larger firms in Halifax so the pay at the crowns office is certainly comparable to those so yes that would be a misconception if you hold it. Yeah. And, you know, one of the benefits as well you know if you're working at legal aid or the crown are you know the vacation time where you can take sick leave if you're in, if you're in private practice it's sort of at the beginning especially you have to eat what you kill essentially and you know you're expected to run that side of things that really is a business component as well with some people are really good at. I wasn't the best at it, you know, especially, you know, tracking people down for money wasn't my forte but yeah you can definitely make a good living in criminal law, you know I don't think that's a reason to go into it but you're not going to starve. There's lots of work out there and if you're fortunate enough to get on with, you know, government or quasi government like the crown or legal aid. Yeah, the pay is good and it rises every year and the benefits are great so there's some stability for sure. Thank you so much and yeah going on about skills. What skills or quality should a young criminal lawyer begin to hone early on, are there skills and qualities that would specifically benefit by pop individuals. That was an interesting one. Yeah that's a really good question. I think you do have to be sort of a fierce advocate, because you're going to run into people saying no to you especially when you're new they don't know you. You know, like I said before a lot of this job is sort of persuading people why they should believe you or help your client so persistence is key. And that's just for everyone but you know be over prepared your reputation really does go a long way. It's a small bar. And so people know that if you come to court and you're sort of ready. And, you know, you make excellent submissions or you're on top of everything. You know the next time that they talk to you that conversation goes a little bit better because they've seen you and they've seen your work and they know that you value your reputation so you need to be aware of those things for me. Coming in, you know as black lawyer. There wasn't many of us and so you do feel under the microscope a little bit and you're you're sort of breaking barriers and a lot of different ways you're for me I was interested in the areas of the law where we could bring the voice of community into the courtroom a little bit in a lot of ways sort of in the boundaries you're pushing the envelope a little bit with respect to the law and so those are spaces where you have to lead. And so you have to be comfortable in those leadership roles if you want to push the law a little bit further in a direction that it needs to go. But I would say the biggest skill I don't know if it's skill or not but find find your people right find find those folks who have common goals or common values who can support you in doing this work that is hard at times and so you know yourself and sort of knowing your limits taking care of yourself, those are all things that I think young racialized lawyers need to be sort of acutely aware of and not being afraid to ask for help to you know the folks at the bar in Nova Scotia at least, you know the senior racialized lawyers are looking for ways to help junior lawyers because they know sort of how hard it can be at the beginning so I think find your find your community as you start that work. I think one important thing to keep in mind is that there isn't like a single profile of a successful criminal lawyer. That can look a lot of different ways, and there's different aspects to the job that people will be better or worse out or need to work on more depending on who they are like is it that human element the interpersonal skills is it like the legal language, is it your court skills like your litigation skills you know what have you right so it's, it's a mix. So I think, working on both your strengths and areas where you might want to improve right just kind of being trying to flesh yourself out in that sense. It's also don't think that anything, you know, don't feel held back by anything in your history, like I said, I had no criminal law experience. Well I should say I did a little bit of defense work when I was arching which is a little bit but I certainly hadn't taken any of the courses. But you know here I am like a decent. So, oh yeah a decent country. You know I'm so I'm doing it right. So, there's always ways that you can, you can compensate or overcome any of any perceived efficiencies in that sense. I think having an important sense of yourself and really feeling strengthened your perspective is important so I feel like you know it's like if you're a racialized law student and you're here for this meeting like you're probably not you know you're someone who wants to do something you want to make a change right like you're not here to just uphold the status quo. That's like not what you're about right. I'm assuming. So, doing that can be really really hard when you're not necessarily seeing yourself in the profession, or you know in the bar, or you're very rarely seen yourself perhaps so you do feel it can be very isolating. Sometimes or you know there isn't really anyone who necessarily understands your point of view, or understands where you're coming from so I think strengthening that point of view in yourself and really, really reaching and like finding that resilience I think if you can hone your resilience. That is going to help you like that's such a core skill and it's going to help you because it's just really difficult work. Yeah, it's, you know it's important for us to be represented in this work, but for those same reasons it makes you more vulnerable in it as well so you have to take care of yourself, take care of yourself take care of yourself always. Yes, and on that note. Law is an area of law that requires a lot of emotional strength like you said yeah and so how do you both avoid or minimize burnout in the workplace I know that I definitely need the answer to this question. I think it's harder at the beginning because the learning curve is steep and you want to sort of prove yourself that you can do the work. Eventually I think you get to a place where you're sort of comfortable setting boundaries, you know protecting your time, protecting your well being. It is hard work in terms of, you know we hear a lot about, you know, being a trauma informed lawyer, and I think there's a lot of value in that perspective. We do carry a lot of vicarious trauma you know lawyers have some of the darkest senses of humor that you're going to come across because you see this stuff every day, and it's sort of that's your release is to sort of vent with your colleagues and and talk about how your day is really fortunate for me at my first 10 years at Legal Aid is I could walk into someone's office next door and just talk about what happened in court, then sort of release a little bit maybe go for drinks once in a while to let off some steam. So I think it's a lot of moments to sort of gather yourself again and I think it's it's so important because you do see a lot of burn out especially you know I think we can be candid here that legal aid lawyers are overworked, crowns are overworked, you know there's not enough judges, the entire system is under tremendous strain at all times so it's difficult it's difficult to strike that balance people like to talk about work life balance but when you come into the profession, that's true, you know if you work at the Halifax office and you're carrying 200 files you don't really have a work life balance at the beginning I think there is a movement towards wellness within legal aid and perhaps within the crowns to I don't know. But you also have to get the job done so I think it's tough at the beginning. Like I said earlier there there are sort of those depacation those sick days or take the days that you need to recover your well being but it, it's a hard balance at the beginning and, you know, saying no sometimes to different outside obligations don't take on too much in terms of work, board work, things that you might think raise your profile as a lawyer and that's not why people do them I hope but you know you want to give back in certain ways but it's also. It's energy and time that you're giving up so protect your energy and protect your time I think will be my biggest tips. What an excellent question this is. I was thinking about it was my answer. And then I realized I think it's not something that I can answer, can find an answer to right, or maybe it is I just haven't found this. I don't know. But I think it's it's more, it's an ongoing process and it is very very difficult that's just the truth of that, for sure. But you know I think legal practice in general is very difficult especially in the beginning year for starting out. That's certainly yes the vicarious trauma and the workload. The workload is a lot. And it is very difficult work. So I was thinking about this question. So there is a saying that I really like which is how you are with anything is how you are with everything. So I think when you're thinking about like how to be resilient, you know how to bolster your emotional strength you really have to look at yourself and have tried to have a good understanding of yourself. The first struggles you have right now in law school or you know in your life, like however that impacts you that's, that's going to be the same, if you're practicing criminal law and like whatever skills you have right now tools that help you again that will be the same. So I think for me it really comes down to self knowledge and like honesty with yourself. I'm really trying to see what that's about for you like are you someone who needs to reach out to your network and be more connected or are you someone maybe who needs to draw some more boundaries and connect your space and have some more time for yourself to reflect or someone who turns inward. And it's more of, you know, like a self stop charge and self harm or are you is it expressed outward do you get angry. Is that how it's expressed. You know do you turn to substances due to what is it is interpersonal, what's going on like how does that look for you like how you know how is it looking for you right now in law school. Generally speaking, that's, that's going to be like you're still going to you know. So I think, again, working like I'm such a broken record about self care I think and which I admit and and own and I will continue to be. So, whenever you have right now that's working for you or whatever you need. to work with to try to get that that is going to be the same thing that will help you later on like it's not mysterious. In that way, right there isn't anything like unique about these challenges I mean they are in nature, but there isn't something like you know, qualitatively unique that's going to be different if you entered a different area of practice. So really I would encourage you to do that deep dive within yourself which I know can be really difficult but I do think that it pays dividends. I think it also speaks to finding where you draw your strength from as well you know if you draw your strength from your friends make space for that but you can also draw strength and inspiration from the work. You know, there are those moments when you, you have a very clear realization of, you know, why you're doing, why you're doing what you're doing and why it matters. So that part I think can can help push you along to you've you've made a difference in someone's life where you've, you've sort of altered the course of maybe the law in a certain way that that gives you that strength that to take the next step so that's a great answer. Yeah. Thank you both and we're going to go into something a little bit more about criminal procedures I guess now so we're going to look at our guys and for anyone who doesn't know our guys are impact of race and culture assessments. And so, can either of you speak to any particular instances where our guys or glad to report significantly altered the course of a sentencing. And do you think that it had the anticipated effective addressing over representation of people of color in the criminal justice system. I don't know everyone's baseline on her cause and glad to use. I think it's important to understand the scope of the problem that we're talking about, you know, systemic racism is embedded in every aspect of our lives so expecting sentencing tool to effectively address that I think is a bit unrealistic and we need to understand the timelines as well. You know glad to use, you know, a couple of decades old and orcas are really in their infancy. So I think one thing is we need to continue to give these tools the time to do their work. But I can say from my experience, absolutely that they've been impactful, you know you're not going to address over representation and one sort of fell sweep but you know day to day. And, you know, these tools to their work. I've had very impactful glad to reports not just reports the entire sort of different sentencing process you know you might go to a sentencing circle and see that impact that it has because the crowns are often there the judge is often there. And so you're presenting your client your true client or complete identity to the court in a different way. And so I've had scenarios with glad to reports where the crown took one position and then. You know after reading glad to report or hearing my client testify, you know came all the way down to sort of join me on a joint recommendation for a non custodial sentence that won't always be the case you won't always get the result that you want but that's, you know, they're not meant to be magic it's just meant to say, here is the entire person here's some other things that you should consider and court should want this information right. I want to know why this person's in front of me and if there's systemic or background factors that have contributed to that, then these reports bring that to light and so their value to me is sort of undeniable and I think we'll continue to see these impact the law in different ways not just in the sentencing context so glad to for example we know that glad to principles are applicable at bail. I would like the same argument for Urcas, I would love, love to see us get to a place where this is sort of in trials as well before guilt or innocence is determined and we're seeing that in different ways I think you know if you look at some of the cases about after the conduct, you know, is the, is the reason that you ran away from the police because you committed the offense, or is the reason that you ran away from the police because historically there's mistrust between the police and in the black community and you haven't had great experience with with police so isn't it open to me as the judge to draw that inference based on what we now know about systemic and background factors so I think these tools will begin to show themselves in ways that we haven't quite imagined yet to me they've they've certainly done what you know they were intended to do but I don't think you're you'll ever be able to make that direct correlation that we have glad to now we have Urcas now so the numbers are going to going to immediately drop it's one step in this much much larger systemic problem. I echo a lot of that I had written down my notes to myself, systemic and I just circled it. So I think certainly if you, you have to keep be aware of where what your expectations are of what these tools can do and also be aware of, you know the whole journey that someone spent on that led them to a place where they're dealing with conviction right freshly sentence or being it's not, you know, not completely reactive because there's a person rehabilitation aspect to sentencing but clearly a lot of things have happened for a person an individual person to get to that point. And, you know, so it's difficult also to assess this when you're when you are dealing with individuals and a report here and there, when it is such a systemic issue. But you know, certainly it's a good tool that we have. Another thing that I think about is, again, just how important it is to have representation and also to have like education and awareness because a report. You know your thing you can be somewhat limited by the person who's wielding that tool so to speak so if you're dealing with folks who, you know, are really lacking some cultural competency to probably interpret or understand what's going on in the report. Then it's, you know, that's going to be a challenge. So but this is like not something that we need instead of but in addition to, yeah. Yeah, I look at glad to as well. Part of the issue with glad to after it came out was that judges weren't using the tool correctly. You know, the Supreme Court of Canada came out again like 10 years later and in Italy and said no, you know, you, this is the way that you use it. It's not only meant for minor offenses serious offenses can be, you know, incorporated into this framework as well so it's really about shifting the mindset, you know, you looking at these tools as a lens through which you apply, you know the law, I think that's where we need to get to and I think we're heading in the right direction. Thank you very much for that. We have actually a question in the Q&A. And the question is what accused persons benefit or not benefit from having hearings and sentencing online instead of in person. So, maybe give a minute for you to kind of think about your answers that would it benefit or not benefit. I don't know if I'll answer the question directly but what I'll say is, you know, COVID has taught us a lot about how much we actually need to be in court and for what reasons, you know, we can do an intake court on the phone or by video and we don't really lose much, you know, especially those appearances where you're setting dates I think there are some things that we have to look to right you know the criminal code tells us that for a trial really the accused needs to be there. You know, certain circumstances and you would have to make an application I think for them to be absent from the trial, for example, but I do think that we could probably be more efficient and that that would be a tool and and really, maybe the question wasn't getting to this but it's something I think about is that the courtroom is this imposing place right you go in you walk past the sheriff station metal detector. You have the cold environment and everyone's talking a different language essentially, you know, we, you know, we have all this legal jargon that we use and so you don't really know what's going on and then if you are witness or a victim or an accused, you take the stand, you know, you have someone, you know, cross examining you which is never a comfortable experience. So we don't make it easy for people to sort of be present in the courtroom and that can manifest in a lot of different ways you know how people react to questions if we think about a sentencing when the judge asked, do you have anything that you would like to say on your own behalf, you might look, you know to your right and look at the gallery and see 50 people you don't know like how comfortable are you going to be expressing remorse in that scenario. So I think generally we could probably do a better job making that a more welcome environment. I love the move towards sort of more plain language in legal field to be more inclusive. You know, if we're talking about indigenous courts and the setup of those a physical setup in space I love some of those ideas where the judge isn't above people and we're sitting in a circle. You know how can we make that space more inclusive, you know, so I don't know if we'll ever get to a place where people are showing up for for trials by video or sentencing by video there is sort of this expectation that a person will be present for important moments during that during the process but it's good question. I think. Yeah, so the question is interesting there's a few different perspectives you can take on it. But one thing I would say is from an efficiency point of view, and in terms of timeliness of getting, you know, getting into position on your matter that would definitely be to the benefit of these folks and also to everyone involved like complainants, anyone who's involved in the matter so the idea that a trial can go forward, or hearing can go forward even if the court is on lockdown. So, I actually did a few virtual trials. It was around, I think it was like January of last year so it was when the courts parental court has had a few COVID lockdowns over the last little while and then coming back and then looking down again so that was during one of the lockdowns. I did a couple of virtual trials. It was a lot of work logistically, which, you know, was a bit of a deterrent so that's unfortunate. So a lot of you know like non legal work that I had to do because unfortunately the courts are these lumbering companies and they can be very regressive in terms of technology and like requirements. And in terms of those not really, you know, adapting to the technology that we have so it was a lot of work to get those done but I was able to do it was an interesting experience. But it was very difficult because, again, the infrastructure isn't really there currently to do that efficiently, although it certainly has been pushed by the pandemic. But is the push over now are we going to continue on that momentum. I'm not sure it depends on how optimistic you are I guess about the course. Yeah. Great. And I see another question here what are some prevalent issues, if any that you've come across in your practice related to race or racism. Yeah, I would love to know this as well I think there are probably a lot more that you have seen than I have in my few months of shadowing court so. What do you think about that in terms of stages of the process right so you're going to see it sort of at every step if you're looking for it. And I think that's key you sort of have to be open to this idea, because for a long time the last thing that anyone wants to talk about in the courtroom was race, you know, let's talk about technical legal arguments and I think you see that and sort of some of the jurisprudence but if we think about the process you know how racialized communities are policed over police surveilled that leads to more charges how discretion so who holds the power in the system. And you know we can look to the police and we can look to crown attorneys who have tremendous amount of discretion and how they're using that discretion you know is that informed with the you know critical race lens. Why not so we all acknowledge this problem right over representation at large you know for for black and indigenous folks in the justice system. And so the status quo is not working, you know the process as it stands is not working, and we can tell that by the outcomes. And so you really have to go through it each stage you know what did the police do how did the crown respond and what decisions that they make. And then they refer something to restorative justice you know these are questions that you can ask as a practitioner. And then when you get into the trial proper, you know, a lot of, you know racial profiling is a real thing. Drive them while black is a real thing these things happen every day and you see them in cases they don't present, you know, the officers never going to say I pulled him over because he was black doesn't look like that but it might look like he was driving the car of someone I knew to be a drug dealer in that neighborhood really okay let's explore that a little bit so I think the obligation is sort of on us practitioner flag these issues be aware of them. You know do your research and learn about these things so you so you're able to raise them be confident enough to raise them. You know street checks racial profiling. It could be something as simple as cross racial identification that we see all the time you know I police officer goes to theft under scene get surveillance video from the Superstore how did they identify that person if they don't know them they send it around via email to all the officers and someone will say yeah I know that I know that person 100% I can identify them. And then you come to find out they might have met that person once maybe, you know, four years ago and so you know how can you be so sure. You know the phenomenon of cross racial identification that's a real thing as well so you just become familiar with these issues and then sentencing of course we know the disparities and sentencing. We know the disparities and bail conditions you know why are you asking for a curfew when this happened at at noon on a Thursday doesn't make sense so just being alive to oh okay those are certain red flags that we need to ask questions about and being courageous enough to bring that up and just be for the response because when you bring up racism to someone who doesn't like to talk about racism the initial reaction is defensiveness. Well I'm not racist. So I couldn't take that view. How dare you accuse me of that and that's not what we're talking about we're not talking about you as an individual actor we're talking about systemic factors that are bringing themselves to bear in this file and how are we going to work to address that because it's both of our obligations so I think there's so many ways that it presents itself and maybe to me it's because I've always been looking for them but I think fundamentally is, you know, have you done your best to bring the voice of your client into the process and I keep repeating that because it's a piece that's been missing for so long because when people feel like you've heard them. They're not dismissing their complaints, which happens all the time. You know, I think racism played a role in this case and the lawyer might be quick to say, Well no actually here's the evidence the crown is relying on. I don't think there's anything to do with race in there but if you're looking in the right way and you're accepting what your client tells you because they are experts on experiencing racism. So you should trust them and you should accept what they say, then you know I think you're doing your job as a practitioner in terms of raising those issues. It's really interesting hearing your answer Brandon because I'm, you know, I was thinking about this from the crown perspective. I was thinking about the cases that I've had where it was, you know, like a hate crime type situation right whether it was like utterances like rats with racial epithets with a racialized dimension to it where the folks who are experiencing that like during the branch of that are the complainants. And how difficult it is to kind of see that through in court. So in the criminal code under section 718.2, I think there's a subsection that talks about that makes the statutory aggravating on sentencing when a crime is happening in the context of discrimination on the basis of and there's a few characteristics one of which is race. So it's like a hate crime clause right. So that it can be really difficult to get that across in court and to really prove that. And I've actually seen that at a few different stages it's interesting like I've had the experience where I'm meeting with complainant. On the day of the trial like the crowds office, you know, talking to them with the officer there and they're telling me things that are not in the police notes that really bring in that like racial dimension to what was said or, you know, and I'm like why wasn't this captured. Like why is this not why is it only coming to light now when I'm speaking with this person. And then I've also had the experience of, you know, making these arguments in court and trying to bring that to light like this element. And, you know, like how damaging it is for folks to be in the target of, you know, crimes like where where it's really bringing to light like it's you know like these racist incidents right and had the experience of just having that not you know be accepted at all by the court by the judge or getting through and I will tell you that is very demoralizing to experience it's not always but you know, even one time is too many right it's just very impactful. So that makes me think about like what I said earlier about how if you're racialized need to choose this work you'll have more impact but you also will be more vulnerable in some ways so again it just speaks to the overall level of the degree of cultural competency or the lack there of in the system as a whole right like on the bench and with council and just done with everyone in the system so it's certainly it's can be very difficult. Thank you so much for your answers. I have an answer from the bill says specifically for Brandon on a case for Rakeem Anderson where you represented an intervener, the and SPD PD coalition. And so they were asking about what were you some of the approaches you considered and how you determine the best approach from the various options that you had. Yeah, it's a really good question so Anderson, if folks aren't familiar sort of a court of appeal decision from 2021 I think wow. But it was this decision that considered sort of the use of orcas and how do we, how do we use systemic and background factors and that information we receive from an orca when we sense black Nova Scotians and African Nova Scotians. And this really was interesting because it was, I call it sort of community based strategic litigation. So legal aid represented Mr Anderson. And then my job, along with another lawyer Lisa shagary was to work on behalf of the client and that client was the nsd pad coalition, which is this huge group of 30 plus organizations many many individuals from black communities. And so we're here for this voice of the community, and to work with them as our client to intervene to say this is first of all really important to black community is decision. And, you know, here's how you should apply these factors so we really propose this substantive framework. And it really was, it's a lens through which to apply all sentencing principle so we're not trying to put it in certain boxes which had been the approach in some cases. There was a certain point in the law Nova Scotia where we were prepared to acknowledge the value of orcas, but not really have an impact sentence or mitigate sense so that pathway to mitigation was the next step and we had some cases out of Ontario that had taken that step so the timing was really interesting because there was a case called Morris in Ontario that went to the Court of Appeal as well that was being argued at the same time. And those folks as well and they sort of intervened on our case so it was really, you know, ties in in so many different ways the IBM initiative, Professor Williams Professor do God sort of helped us frame that work. Community had input on what was important, very clear direction that the court has to know the history here so we laid out pretty comprehensively the history in this province in terms of systemic anti black racism. And we pointed out that the law itself had perpetuated that racism and there's many examples of that in terms of land rights voting rights. You know these sort of Jim Crow laws that were sundown laws there's all these examples, you know throughout the course of time, how the law had been a tool to perpetuate this and so we were saying well. You know the law, you have this duty almost to to remediate this through the law because the law had been complicit in getting us to this point so Justice Derek wrote the decision really hit on everything that we wanted. You know, said it might be an error of law if you don't consider orcas, and it could be an error of law if you don't explain your decision because that's where we were we were at just saying, yeah, you know there's that history and that's really bad. This is a gun case or this is a serious case and you're still going to have to go to jail. And so we tied it back to the problem that we all acknowledge over representation we're very clear over represented in the justice system at large how do we address this and so we were saying the law sentencing judges must play a part yes we can't solve the entire problem but clearly, this is a place where we can make an impact and so, fortunately, Justice Derek and me and the panel were unanimous that, you know that's the way that the law was heading and so we are really fortunate in Nova Scotia to have that type of decision because it makes our work, you know I work at the African Nova Scotian Justice Institute makes our work so much easier to say this has been acknowledged by our highest court. We really have clear direction now and so if they don't follow that direction we have recourse. So, that was a really sort of monumental moment for me to be involved with and to bring community into the courtroom in that way. I would say in response to the question how do we arrive at that approach this is years of preparing for that moment and preparing waiting for the right case and having the network to be able to respond, you know, in the timeline that's pretty short in terms of other appeal timelines so we had to sort of mobilize pretty quickly I have to give a lot of credit to Lisa Shigiri to we had this idea about because we had to go to legal aid and say we want to represent not only Mr. Anderson but we want to represent an intervener as well and and they were on board with that so we had you know decision makers who are ready to come with us. And as we took that on and I think the contextual approach is is a really basic legal, you know analysis we let's take it back to first principles. Let's say that you know, because of the historical context and because of the outcomes that we're seeing. It has to be applied across the board and I think if you read Anderson read more as you would notice some of the distinctions there where they try to say it's, you know it's relevant to this sentencing principle but not necessarily to the seriousness of the offense for example I think that was one of the conclusions that Morris drew. Whereas Anderson was more nuanced than that I think and saying, well it can apply there and you know and here's how it might so it left the door open and so I think again we'll see that grow into other areas of the law hopefully before sentencing. I wish for that and before we open it up to more Q&A so students if you have any questions, please put them in the Q&A box and we will ask them to our panelists. We have a little bit of a wholesome question here. What can, can you describe a case or situation in your career that was the most valuable or impactful on your practice. Ian, would you like to start with that one? Sure, I think I can. There isn't one particular thing that I can think of but I think it's more like a collection of experiences. So I have been very fortunate to have some really good mentorship at the Crown's office, and to have had some really good experiences and feedback on my work, both from my colleagues and just chats with you know defense counsel and from some judges actually out the back of it as well. So it's those moments have been extremely validating and really meaningful for me and I think again this goes back to me, you know my experience of coming into this profession you know like not seeing myself not having any reference frame to it and maybe some of you will relate to this right so you're sort of always looking for, for feedback or for answers like is this okay, am I doing all right. Especially when again you're trying to not just a full status quo you're trying like you believe in something you're trying to achieve something. So I think just having that feedback those interactions really you know bolstered my confidence in myself. Which you know then in turn has really helped me in the straw and in my advocacy. And again, another thing would be having really good interactions with complainants so I think I'm a very relational person so I think no matter what I'm doing it's going to be about that human interaction like we get a lot out of that. So I think it's important to be clear on what your expectations are from your work so what is it going to look like for you to feel satisfied by what you're doing. So if you're doing this work it's not about winning or losing and it's never about winning or losing. Anyway, in Canada, this is actually maybe a misconception that folks might have that you guys want to because you're a law students but you know the difference between the system in Canada versus in the States right so as a crown your job isn't just to win and any cost. And make sure that the right result happens. So there's a saying in civil litigation which is winning is only slightly better than losing. You know what I think speaks to just like how harrowing it is to go through the system to be involved to be from any point of view but you know what I can speak to is just approaching it as a complaint and having to go through it. I think that experience for that person can really be shaped by you like as a crown. You can really impact that experience based on your approach to that person and how you're filtering interpreting presenting the system and how you're helping to lead that person through the system because what they're looking for is not a win or a loss like what they're looking for is to feel like they've been restored in some way or they've been killed in some way. They're, you know, they're not looking for something that can be answered from the legal system it's something a bit more human than that. So I think being able to help someone through that to me is just like such a privilege and something that I really, you know, appreciate and respect just appreciate being able to do that so I think all those experiences have been very impactful and meaningful for me. So my answer. It's interesting to hear you talk about feedback. You don't get a lot of feedback I mean sometimes from your colleagues, you know the crowns or other defense lawyers might say you know, good job in there or give you specific feedback but you don't get a lot of feedback from the bench and so when you do. It's really valuable and they, they talk, I mean judges will tell you they talk just as much as the lawyers do about what happens in court so it made me think of a file. At the beginning I wouldn't have flagged this is one of sort of the memorable moments of my career but it was it was sort of really impactful, because I had this municipal file. That same firm that I talked about Newton Associates also did municipal prosecutions it's my only experience ever being on the prosecution side. And I think we had a dog ticket or something like that and so the, the act and municipal bylaws whatever it was legislation I had made a mistake and it was with a self wrap and I had made a mistake and the mistake resulted in sort of the termination of the prosecution and I couldn't go any further and wrote a brief to say why it wasn't such a bad mistake and tried to revive it, but it was done, and the judge at the end sort of called me back into the chambers, and was just very very kind and saying you know you're going to be a great lawyer you have a good temperament for this, you know mistakes are going to happen. It wasn't a judge that I would have expected that from, which made it more impactful. And so I do think they, they see you, you know, when you're trying and you're working your hardest, especially as a young lawyer. And as long as you're not making those mistakes over and over again, I think you'll get a lot of respect from from the judiciary. So that was an interesting moment for me. But I, it, the question made me think about the first murder file that I participated in as a second chair, I might have been two or three years at the bar, you know, had been asking, you know, I would suggest that you do that if you have the capacity to do it and sort of just to get on a bigger file. If you get, you know, the chance, because it's like running, you know, one, a one month murder trial is like running, you know, 20 or 30 provincial court trials just because there's so many applications. And that was the first time that it hit home for me, the, you know, the stakes of what we're doing, where you have someone who has lost their life, and their family showing up every day. And you have a client who is facing, you know, sort of life in prison as well. And so the weight of those moments is not something that you forget. And in that case, you know, it's, you know, it's a reality, you know, you're going to, you're going to be in the room sometimes when when sentences are handed down and in that case, you know, a client got a life sentence for second degree murder, and like, stand beside them, you know, you're there in that moment, which is very, very hard, but it's, it's also, you know, it's also why you do it because you gave that person an opportunity to have, you know, their side of the story heard and you fought your hardest for them. And so, to me, you know, that's really the moment where I like, okay, you know, this is, this is why we do this and I'd say that those are the impactful cases that I remember. And then you go back to provincial and you start doing theft funders and like, oh, this is easy, you know, I can do this all day. And so there's a lot of value in those big files if you can get on them. Yeah. Okay, great. And was there any other questions from any of the students or the participants? Please share them now or wherever folder please. I actually have a question. If we have time for it. I'm just curious if our panelists have any advice for students, especially law students either early on and early on in our careers to especially as racialized lawyers and law students just for dealing just for responding to instances of racism or instances of people having sort of closed-mindedness when we don't really know the language or we don't know our knowledge enough to retort in a knowledgeable way or to come up with a response that is, you know, backed by case law, backed by the law, like backed by research. If you just have any advice for how to approach that, just for us young ones. Yeah, it's a great question. It's okay in court. This is something I didn't learn for a long time. It's okay to say, whoa, can we stop here? You know, we need to take a break and we need to figure out what was just said and how I'm going to respond. It's okay to say, I need some time to figure out how I'm going to respond to that because, you know, it's something that needs to be responded to. I don't have this sort of duty as well to, you know, obviously put forward the best case on behalf of your client, but, you know, sometimes things get appealed as well. These are your words on the record, your response on the record. So, the question to me was sort of in the context of in the courtroom. And I think that's one of the things I would say is it's okay to say, Your Honor, I'm going to need some time with that because I want to get, you know, it might be, I want to listen to the recording again of the words that were used and I want to do some research on how I might respond to that. Now, you can't do that every day in every provincial court case, but, you know, especially on the issue of race, especially where, you know, it might impact your client or you personally, you know, I think you have to be protective of that. And I think you have to, again, have sort of the moral courage to say this is important enough for me to stop what's going on to respond to this. It could be something so slight that you don't realize it until a few minutes later. And you know, I've certainly been in that situation and some things I would rather have stopped the entire proceeding and try to address it. Then, you know, think about it three months later and say, Wow, I should have, I should have done something there because that sort of hit me in a way that I wasn't expecting so it's okay to slow down and even stop and pause and adjourn. And I think young lawyers are so nervous about being the one who says we need to we need to stop here. We, you know, interrupting the proceedings. But I would encourage you to do that if you if you feel it's necessary. That's really interesting as here because in your question I heard both like the personal and the more in the courtroom element to racism but like my mind went to like the more personal aspect of like how do I deal with racism that I know I'm going to encounter right about which I have many thoughts. So, I think, again, if you are a person who is here for this panel you're probably someone who feels a lot of responsibility. You know, to represent you the right thing to not you know to fight what you need to fight. And so that leads to a lot of pressure. So, I think, again, keep your perspective of mind keep your expectations in mind and recognize in yourself that just your near presence in this space where you're not you know you're maybe not really seeing always as really not recognized as you should but just your presence alone is really powerful and it's really impactful. So, you know, like every morning before you go to work like look familiar and say that to yourself. And also for everyone here just your presence like that applies to law school as well your presence in law school, just your presence is hugely impactful. It's very, very meaningful I'm sure it doesn't feel like that sometimes. But it is just being there and being who you are and standing for what you stand for. That's really important like law school is not a place for positive reinforcement right for recognition of this but like I really believe that it's doing something. So, in terms of when you're dealing with these moments which unfortunately and I believe you know they're going to come up like a personal side. I think it's really important again to center yourself, protect your energy and choose your battles. And it's okay to think a little bit about, you know, the choice of your battle like it's not a lot to to figure that out. Is this something where you want to say, and sometimes that is the right choice, or is this something where you're protecting your piece. You know, and I will say that for myself, when I've had those experiences I've really had a lot of support from my colleagues. So, speaking with them and it's really interesting because not everyone like not everyone was racialized as an ally right, but also vice versa. So I should come from come from unexpected places like in my experience. So you know you can't assume, but I really have had folks help champion, you know my position, and that has been, you know, very moralizing, very supportive it really helped me a lot so I think don't close in, because it is such an isolating experience when you are when you feel like you're being targeted, and you're experiencing that but try to get the support that you need, and you know feel that you are worthy of that because you are. Thank you so much for those answers are very poignant. I actually have a question too, because as much as we are all here, mostly here from the racialized groups, the societies, there are quite a number of allies here too that are non POC. Currently there's a little bit of a discussion in the law school of non racialized students supporting racialized students, especially in light of recent events that happened. And I was just wondering what kind of advice that you would give to non racialized law students or lawyers and how can they support their colleagues or their, their classmates. Yeah, I don't, I don't know all the details or the context of, you know what's going on at the law school but I don't know people show you a lot about who they are through their actions or in actions and again made a great point about you don't always know where the allyship is going to come from but to me, you know, it's needed, we need people to support us, you know it shouldn't the burden shouldn't always be on the folks who are most impacted to lead and teach and respond, even though we're definitely willing to do that and fight. And, you know, it obviously makes it a lot easier when there's other folks coming into to support that so in the profession. You know I came up in a time where a black lawyer was under investigation by the bearishers deciding we really had to look around and say you know who's supporting this lawyer you know why is this investigation so intense you know they're spending a million on this, you know it was a lot of questions and, and the profession, you know showed me through that experience, you know observing that experience that we, you know we are still outsiders in this profession that's the feeling that I got. You know, I've had a lot of great colleagues and bosses who are, you know, white folks and want to do the right thing often. So I think it's, you know, that authentic meaningful. They might not always say the right thing or do the right thing but they will show up in a way that you know you can trust their actions in the way that they support you so it's not not the best answer it's not the best way for me to think of this like we're going to need you folks to step up, and it doesn't always have to look perfect, and you might mess up and words that you choose but it's about more than that right you have to be willing to stand by and put your attention right and that's a piece, you know people will go to a certain point where they'll say the right things, because there's no consequences are you willing to take the risks that we have to take. Are you willing to give up the space that is needed for us to make meaningful change. That's when you start seeing people push back a little bit and that tension in this profession is that old boys club you know it still is and some of those barriers are there but you know that's, those are the folks who are leading the profession, and I don't want to speak specifically about anybody but you know that vintage of lawyer are the lawyers who are, you know, decision makers now, or senior folks are senior judges. And so, you know, those, that's the place that needs to change and I think there is this movement amongst young lawyers who recognize you know that that allyship is important so I'm interested to hear what Ian thinks about that. So, we'll brand you make a lot of really good points and I especially like what you said about, you know, I think you're kind of saying like it's, you know, it'll be it's an option like if you're not personally impacted like you're an ally you're not impacted. It always, you know if you're impacted you can't escape it right if you're always you know people are going to see it in you you can't get away but if you're an ally it's an option it's a choice. You can choose to ally yourself or not and you can make that choice continuously. It's always available to you so I think that in the choosing what's being shown there is your character and your principles. And I think definitely shifting the burden so that you're not, you know, putting all the, the work on, you know your friends and folks who are experiencing this firsthand and just being proactive. You know, there can go a long way. I think centering the voices of folks who are impacted by whatever is going on I have I've heard a little bit about what's happening in the law school. But you know I can't speak to with any authority the sense by against there's a lot going on right now. So, centering those voices and making space for that is really important and I would echo Brandon like that the sincerity in your intention will come through it's okay if you don't know that all the answers and you don't know what you you don't know what the right thing to do is it's very difficult right there's a lot of messages out there it's difficult to know what the right thing to do and there is no single, you know, answer for everyone like what someone needs what one person needs may not be what another person needs. So I think having that sincere intention to go a long way and I think also support can look a lot of different ways I mean right now it sounds like there's a lot happening in the law school so you know like by your BIPOC friend of coffee, like bring them a stack. I'm serious it's right like allyship comes in and all different shapes and sizes. So just doing anything to show that support and to show that you're there is having like having that acknowledgement that validation can be really impactful as well. So, yeah centering voices open heart open mind. Thank you so much and we have one question in the Q&A. Are you able to comment on regional this difference on regional difference of racialized lawyers experience. If not what might be unique about practicing in Nova Scotia. So I'm guessing both of you have mostly practiced the Nova Scotia so I don't know if you could speak to other regions but you know that's interesting I thought regional, you know, I thought the question was about rural parts of Nova Scotia which there are a lot of differences. You know, most of the, well it's interesting, you know, think about the black community is 53 black communities, 52 53 black communities in Nova Scotia that are all unique have really interesting histories. I didn't necessarily learn a lot about them in school generally and not in law school either. But through my work you know I've had the opportunity to sort of go to Whitney Pier and go to Shelburne and it is different. And you know it's some of those communities feel isolated. And those communities feel like all of the resources and energy and attention is focused in Halifax and the HRM. And they're out there on their own fighting and so if you're a lawyer practicing in those areas as well I think you're going to feel that isolation in a different way. At legal aid we've had lawyers come and go from rural offices and you know on the equity and racial diversity committee that I was on we would try to figure out okay well what's the support network that you put in place for these folks who might be coming from out of province coming from Ontario to go to Amherst for example where they might not see anyone who looks like them and might not have anyone to talk to so really supporting those folks. They might feel isolated or even don't let them get to that point like having those support systems in place before they start. I think at legal aid we could have done a better job of that. You know so I certainly saw that but across the country. It's really interesting to you know, African Nova Scotians at 400 years of history, you know that is the context here and so that's a lot different than what we might see in Ontario where you know you might have sort of the more Caribbean communities or different parts of the diaspora, you know sort of dealing with issues as they've arrived in Canada and in our west it might look different but you know at the institute you know the African Nova Scotian Justice Institute we've had people reach out from across the country and so it's been interesting. We have this common fight that manifests itself in different ways across the country so people in Quebec are calling like how do we stop street checks you guys did it there and we're like, well, it might look that way but you know it's still an issue for us, or folks in BC saying you know come teach us how to roll out these urcas to our lawyers so the anti-black racism you know sort of manifests itself in so many different ways depending on where you're at in this country and that local resilience though that local expertise on how to fight that has been sort of eye opening to me as I do this work so I sort of jumped around in the question but it's a really interesting question. So it's interesting because for me when I saw this question I immediately thought about like the differences across different jurisdictions across the provinces in Canada so I think speaking from like an Asian Canadian perspective I think that the VATCH experience is it is a regional difference if you look at like the West Coast versus Ontario versus the East Coast like you have a big difference in the history of the Asian Canadian communities there and the you know the timelines and so on. So you know have more representation obviously in just the population on the West Coast and then Ontario, however that doesn't mean that you know there's more or less anti-Asian racism I think to me it's just a different flavor and again that's you know more of my personal experience my life experience because I have only practiced as a lawyer in Nova Scotia so you know I'm extrapolating from my life experience to what I think the bars might be like and you know conversations with friends and so on. So you know it's yeah I think it's a different flavor in Nova Scotia like we know that there's been an increase in anti-Asian racism since COVID the pandemic but there's a lot going on. You know right now I'm the only Asian crown in Halvex region there are in the in the criminal bar so including the defense bar I feel like let me think quickly East Asian lawyers. I think the five off top of my head one other one of them one other of them as a woman so it's the two of us. You know I like I've shown up to court and been mistaken but are you the interpreter like who are you like no I'm crown. You know like moments like that really demoralizing but I'm really glad you asked this question actually because it gives me an opportunity to say this I was thinking about. You know like on a positive note I'm not sure if you really came across through the course of this panel but I want what I want to say was. Despite the challenges were maybe in addition to or in parallel to the challenges. And this is going back to my point about having some really valuable good feedback from the bench and from colleagues and so on I and Brandon's point. Really valuable point about reputation your reputation really really matters I'm sure folks have said that to you guys before especially in a smaller bar like in Nova Scotia and Halvex. So if you were to ask me and I think they've said this to you before I really I do feel like I have been given the opportunity to establish my own reputation. And that's you know, there's been difficulties there. There's a lot going on but I if you were to ask me like I wouldn't say that. All of that like all the oppression has been complete bar on me being able to be like recognized for my work and to let my reputation speak for itself or let my work speak for itself. So, I think you know in a way there is a there's a benefit to the to Nova Scotia and like the, you know, kind of the regional situation here. I don't know if it's a benefit or a deficit. But anyway, overall I yes my answer to that would be yes and that's something that I'm really grateful for. And that I appreciate it. Thank you both so much and if there are no other questions, just going to wait for like maybe a minute I just want to thank both of you. Thanks so much for taking part of this panel. I don't know if Syria has any concluding thoughts as well but I really wanted to thank both Sierra and Kate as well for allowing me to put this panel on. I really thought it would was an important panel to put on, especially considering the context of criminal law. And because I am interested in criminal law and I'm a woman of color really wanted to know some of these answers as well. Thank you, Delta Delta, I'm DeBosa for working together with me. It was quite an experience trying to work with four different societies for one panel, but we did it. Well that was great. And also we do have some gifts for you, but because it wasn't in person I'm not able to get them to you, right away, but I can get them to both of you I know because I can see both of you. I just wanted to say thank you so much for moderating and something I forgot to mention at the beginning is that faith came up with the idea for this panel. I think it was the end of last year, if not the very beginning of this year. And so I just wanted to thank you for for your efforts and putting this on and I'm really glad that we were able to do this. Yeah, thanks to all for for putting it on and for attending and I would say if you have any interest in sort of the work that that I've touched on or just want to ask more questions feel free to reach out. African Nova Scotian Justice Institute I think I think we have a website now so that's exciting. So it should be on there but I think students are such an asset and you know the earlier that you can get that criminal experience the better for you and figuring out what you want to do and figuring out what criminal is all about so if I can help in any way feel free to reach out. It's really the same for me if there's anything I'm always really happy to chat with students. So, you can reach out to me how I can find on LinkedIn, or my email at cn.lua Nova Scotia.ca, or faith if you want to distribute my contact information that's totally fine with me. Thank you so much to the organizers for putting this on thanks Brandon for being on the panel with me. And thank you so much to the participants remember if you are a lost of color then take a moment to celebrate your presence and congratulate yourself for your presence and if you're an ally by your friend a coffee. Those are my takeaways. Thank you everyone so much also this recording will be available within the next couple of days, but in the meantime if you have any questions for the panelists that you think of maybe overnight you can email DC LSA at hotmail.com, and we can forward those off to to whoever. And if that's all. Have a good night everyone. Good night.