 60 Minutes with Angela starts right now. April 2022, my guest today oversees 1,087 contracts covering 958 projects and that's in the Ministry of Works alone. In the Ministry of Housing, he's building homes in 34 states of the Federation and the Federal Capital Territory. Baba Tundiraji Fashola, Senior Advocate of Nigeria joins me on the program today. Now you've said different seasons bring different challenges and I think that applies to both the Works Ministry and the Housing Ministry. So what do you mean by that statement? When it is bad weather season, so let's just say bad weather season, it's a very difficult time for people who are in transport and logistics. So whether that bad weather is represented by typhoon and monsoon rain in Asia or it is represented by very, very blistering hurricane in America which is yearly or by very bad snow in Europe or by very heavy rain in Nigeria, it's a bad season. So that is when ships are delayed, flights are cancelled, vehicles are stuck on the road, planes can't fly. So instead of feeling sorry for ourselves and recognize that that season is coming. Around April the rains have started. So again you know that we are going into bad weather season, lasting about 90 days. So again that's when trucks get stuck, old roads begin to show up because bitumen, asphalt and water are not friends. So old roads begin to give up at that time. How do you begin to prepare to patch so that the logistics, the movement of goods and services continues on an almost uninterruptible basis. So it's all about planning, knowing what the problem is and how to prepare. If you're prepared as we are then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. So this year we submitted to the, we invite the public to our ember month plan and this year we submitted a report and the stakeholders have come, the transporters said yes, it was a better experience this year than the year before. That is progress for me because it's measurable and so we've now started the rainy season plan. In fact the file for the details of the rainy season plan was just submitted to me today so I'm taking it home for the weekend to look at it and go through the details and see that it covers as much as our resources can support. Because you know we never have all the resources we want. There's a statement that you made, parking trucks on the road shoulders reduces a road's lifespan. How so? Building a road actually is an aggregation of many different materials and then you compact it into a compounded hole. So from the sub-base where you either use the naturally occurring soil if it is good or you do soil replacement and take laterite and what you do you compound. So it's like trying to bake a cake from flour, you mix all of it together. Then you put the cross-tune, you compact again, then you put the binding component, then you have the binder course which is the last course before what you call the wearing course. So once you have bound all of that together, don't forget that all of those things are carbon by-products except the naturally occurring laterite. So when you put any solvent, diesel is a solvent, petrol is a solvent, engine oil is a solvent, you are essentially dissolving what you have spent money to bind together. So when you pack a truck, you start changing oil, it slips into the shoulder and then under the road and your road begins to fill from under. All the protection that has been put on the shoulder to help throw water into the side of the road now begins to penetrate. Then water follows that place because you have opened up, there is a gap and water will find a gap and then the road begins to fill from under. So by the time you see a pothole at the top, it has happened from underneath where we call the pavement. So this is what we seek to protect by saying that the shoulders of the road are not parking places, they are not parking lots. Also at least not permanent parking lots, let me modify that because you can have a blowout on the way. The shoulder is where you should recede to, to get out of the way, change your wheel and continue your journey. Not to turn it into a permanent parking place where people now sleep and in the mechanic workshop. Yes. All right. I wanted you to comment on the matter of executive orders. I never knew that they were actually legal. I first heard about them when President Obama was using them. So in the light of the Supreme Court's decision now, disagreeing with Mr. President who sought to grant financial autonomy to the state judiciary and legislature, are executive orders legal or are they only legal as long as they're not interfering or trying to violate the Constitution? Okay, so my understanding of executive orders, because I also use them at sub-national level, they help to convey the expression of executive commitment to things that the executive members should do exemplified by a written document. Often times the civil service works on processes and they are more gravitated to action by what is written rather than what is said. So executive orders are useful in that sense to get everybody into action. So long as they give aid and purpose to the duties already vested in the executive and they don't exceed that limit, they are legal. The view of the Supreme Court with regard to the executive order about the judiciary, even though it was for their own benefit, was that it crossed the line of separation of powers. I haven't seen the full judgment, but that was my understanding of the expression of the judicial statement. So executive orders three and five, for instance, that Mr. President signed advocating for the use of local building materials. Are you saying that everything we need to build a house in Nigeria, we have it all here? Actually we do. I think there was one component that we found that we didn't have sufficiently good quality, but one Nigerian company sent a sample of what they could do and it had to do with sockets actually. So in terms of roofing, we have the capacity in terms of suspended ceilings we do, cables of course. We have some of the best cables, of course the cable will become decades ago and I don't want to advertise for any brand, but they know themselves and some are still actively advertising. So paint, we are also visible there, reinforcement, we have local companies making steel. So cement of course, we are now the largest market for manufacturing cement where our cement manufacturers are also exporting to African countries. So doors are being made here, nails and all of that. So these are many of the MSMEs if you like that we need to increase their capacity to supply us by increasing the demand through this kind of policy to say let us consume more of what we make in Nigeria. So I want you to comment in the ways that Nigeria is now using local building materials in the construction industry, construction of our homes, construction of our bridges and our roads. The local content executive order by President Buhari seeks to optimize the benefit of the infrastructure investment for the Nigerian economy. From the people, the manpower and the labor to also the materials and so except for things like bitumen and asphalt and diesel perhaps that are still imported, most of the equipment now, most of the materials in terms of reinforcement, cement and all of that are local and the audit of construction sites shows that over 90% of the staff involved in construction are Nigerians which is very important. My ministry does an audit from time to time assessing how many foreigners are working on each side in order to keep the local content objective true and pure and that is a useful footprint also to maximize local benefit for investments that are made in Nigeria. The Niger bridge, the second Niger bridge, there's a lot of comment on that. Will it be towed? Of course it will be towed. What do you say to those who think, you know, we're paying taxes? A toll is not a tax, it's a user charge. If you don't use it, you don't pay. The president was clear in his mandate and his meetings to us, particularly my ministry. I remember the first meeting I had with him as a minister was about, was barely a week after he inaugurated us and I got a call from the villa that the president was inviting me to a meeting with him. So when I went to him, what he said to me was, I need you to help me find out what is delaying the Lagos Ibadra Expressway, what is delaying the second Niger bridge and what is causing a seven-day gridlock on Elani to Jeba, which is barely a hundred kilometers. Why is it taking seven days to traverse a hundred kilometers? If you do all of that and solve that for me, also address Abuja Khan. Those are my priorities and try as much as possible to complete the roads that you met. Whatever else you do in your ministry is your problem. Go and solve those priorities for me. And I just told you, and then getting in here, I would experience with infrastructure from Lagos. It was clear that it was easier to finish roads that had been awarded even though they weren't funded. Contractors had been committed. What did we stand to gain in re-awarding, cancelling? That was not going to deliver impact in the shortest possible time to people. And you will remember in the first time of this administration, our predecessors in government used to tongue in cheek, ask us what we started and what we completed. And I told them that it was a clear misunderstanding of how government worked. The public is not interested in who started what. The public is interested in what is impacting their lives. And that's what we have done. That's the difference between us and them. Those who doubted the bridge when I started work as minister, and I was explaining to them that the bulk of a bridge is built underwater where its structural integrities are showed can now see the superstructure and it is no longer in doubt whether there is a bridge now. The only question is when are you going to open it? And that's a new and healthy conversation to have. Lagos in Badua Expressway now, average is one and a half hours or two hours to traverse Lagos to Badua. It used to take a whole day on the Bini or Resyagamu, the story also is positive, it's not finished, but the travel experience and journey time, same thing on Enugung Potakot, Enugungo Onitsha. And across Nigeria really, whether it's from Charn, Numan, Mayubewa, Tujeda, Lone Tujiba, we still have some bottlenecks around Bini, Okene, Lokoja, we have around Kalaba, Udukpani, but the contracts have largely now been awarded so it's not a question of time. So taxes are different, taxes are imposed by statutes and so once you earn income you must pay tax. Now the thing about the second Niger Bridge, people must understand is that it follows all of the best practices of tolling, which is also in our tolling policy that as practical and as practicable as it is, wherever we are setting up a toll, there will be an alternative route. So the old Niger Bridge becomes the alternative to the new Niger Bridge. So if you don't want to pay toll, don't use the new one, it's just as simple. You have a choice and in places where we don't have choice, we still pay for going to the airport and I have to pay in Lagos and in Abuja. So there's no going back, will the Lagos Ibargo Express will be towed as well? Yes it will be towed and there's the alternative. So Lagos Otabe Kuta is being executed, it's an old route that is being reconstructed. They have some additional funding again this year in the Sukuk to push it to completion. Ikudu Shagamu is also being constructed, so again it's an alternative. That used to be the old Ibargo Road, that used to be called old Ijebu Road actually. Before the Lagos Ibargo Expressway was actually built. So that was the main route to Ibargo and then you go through Shagamu and all of that. Use those choices if you don't want to pay tow. Use those choices. Join us again after the break. How will you rationalize where we are today and thinking of the many ways that Nigerians can now acquire homes? Again at the national level, the national housing program is now being delivered on an online portal so that eliminates all of the need to buy forms, the bureaucracy around it. Thirty-four states now have national housing projects and they are being commissioned one after the other from Edo to Delta to Nassarawa to Kaduna to Kanu to Ibardo to Oshun and so on and so forth. All the thirty-four states will be covered. But more importantly, you will see now a reform being undertaken in the federal housing authority, a new management, a new board with diverse experience in that core area, a new board and management for the federal mortgage bank to reposition it back to its banking ethos with a diversity of bankers now dominating the board and management and to ensure that there is better access by Nigerians to mortgage funding to meet their housing needs. This again are useful legacies and very, very indelible footprints to change the conversation around how housing is funded, how housing is provided and how housing is delivered. Here has conversed and discussed maintenance in terms of the culture, but the Buhari administration takes a different view that maintenance is not a culture, it is an economy that government must lead, government must promote and government must not show so that some of our most critical societal members, people we have trained, can benefit from the very, very bountiful harvest, economic harvest that maintenance can yield and so the Buhari administration will go down on record as the first government at the national level to pass a national policy on maintenance. And it is already exciting people who are into facility management and maintenance as practitioners. In fact, I have already again been invited to speak at their annual summit to discuss the Executive Order 11 that Buhari has signed to now give effect to that policy, to create work for artisans, for vendors, to drive MSMEs, to ensure that public buildings and hopefully later private buildings actually live through their design life because of maintenance, but more importantly through maintenance to create long sustainable and enduring jobs beyond the construction period. So as you will see, maintenance of bridges has started, maintenance of public buildings will now follow, maintenance of secretaries have started and it is already delivering benefit and value to people down the value chain. Those who are providing maintenance support, chemicals, washing, cleaning agents, brushes, equipment, plumbing equipment, heating equipment, light bulb manufacturing, those are the MSMEs. So this is a very, very big economic footprint for Nigeria being left by the Buhari administration in the maintenance industry. Let's talk a bit of politics. I want you to comment on the overall performance of your party since 2015. Comparing prices now of certain goods when you came in 2015 and where we are now, especially commodity like kerosene. It was 198, now it's 415 per litre and that worries me in the light of the effect using kerosene coal or wood will have on the environment. It's like regressing our progress in fighting global warming and all that environmental change. Give me good reasons why anyone should still vote for the All Progressive Congress in 2023, given the differences in price when you came in 2015 and where we are today. Okay, let me start this way that cost of living is a global challenge for every leader in the world and it has become more so today. So I don't know many jurisdictions if any where cost of living is getting lower and that is why governments traditionally have responded by wage increases and this is the reason for reviewing wage increases. If cost of living were reducing there will be no government in any part of the world sponsoring implementing wage increases in order to ensure that wages catch up with cost of living. So for our opponents also we know what the prices of these things were in 1999. We know where they left them in 2015. So we have implemented a minimum wage revision to 30,000 from 18 and government has also then actively helped states to pay those wages. Bailout funds were given by this administration which our opponents never did and they were given across party lines. Reforms have been made for investments in infrastructure made on behalf of preceding federal governments, totally almost a trillion to all the states that have applied for them and this has been done again across party lines even though this government had to borrow to make those reforms. In the twilight of the administration before us we were having reports of monies with clergy being forgotten on aircraft apparently meant to be exported, dollars meant to be exported out of Nigeria. The difference is that Buhari is repatriating back monies that have been taken out of Nigeria by preceding administrations and committing them to solving the problem of the people of Nigeria. Whether you like it or not that is the hard fact. So part of the monies recovered from previous administration is now being used to complete the Legosi by the Expressway, being used to build the second Niger bridge and being used to fund the Abuja to Karno highway. That's a very, very important difference and worthy footprint to live behind. In terms of the Sukuk, Sukuk is financial investments and borrowings in the Islamic way, Islamic funding that is dedicated to specific projects because the budget is inadequate to deal with them. So what you find is that government goes with the Sukuk bond, people invest in the bond, we dedicate the rules that are going to be funded, each contractor commits to how many kilometers is going to complete with the share allocated to him. And you see a signboard, Sukuk 1, Sukuk 2, Sukuk 3, this is what is going on and it's visible so people can see where Nigeria's resources have been spent. It's a useful and commendable footprint to live behind. And even a tax credit you will see also the roads initiative to say okay look we don't have all of the monies we need. Nigeria's infrastructure gap is big, we have to bridge it as far as we can before we leave even though we can totally bridge it. But let us ask private sector who pay taxes to use their tax liabilities to invest in infrastructure. You see with the Dangote Group on Apapau and Shuki that road has been a major problem since it ran out of its useful design life since 1975. It has exceeded its design life and started falling apart. Instead of patting it the Buhari administration using the tax credit has rebuilt that road almost to completion. I will finish this year 27 kilometers of new concrete tailing highway that will last for another 50 years. Concrete route this time around to take the excess tonnage coming from our busiest spot. So these are defining elements of difference about us. So I don't know countries where the cost of living is going down but what we can do what governments do that I know is to address them with tax cuts and those kind of things and you will see again that in our annual finance acts now we reduce certain taxes, we reduce certain levies, we reduce VAT even though it went up we reduced it in order to make life more livable. How far it goes of course is debatable because government has also in giving revenue is not absorbed of its responsibilities so it still has to carry out those responsibilities. But in terms of compassion and empathy about how people are living you will see our social investment programs also are direct attempts to actually put money in people's hands. Not those lame lost things like Shopee and all of those things that were difficult to account for that our opponents did. So in terms of that I think that we will message this, we will converse this, we understand that things are challenging but in terms of the commitments that we set out to undertake our investments in infrastructure is not accidental it is meant to address the economy and in places where we are built infrastructure now on new routes go there and go and see the value of land. Value of land has accrued as increased by 30 to 40 percent that is benefit to the land owners they don't come to government so that's prosperity to the people even though they won't publicly admit it but all those exchanges are going on and we know them. So look no matter what problems we face I am clear in my mind that our opponents are not the answer to it they created many of them and we are still trying to solve them. We are still trying to solve them. You talked about borrowing as well. One of the major criticisms of this administration is that generations yet unborn will be repaying those debts. Looking at our foreign debt has gone up from 11 billion is about 38 billion dollars now this is as of Thursday the 21st of April the dollar is 587 Naira to one our domestic debt up from 10 trillion Naira to 22 trillion Naira and our excess crude account depleted from 2.1 billion dollars to 35.8 million dollars that is scary and I think that you shouldn't look at that in isolation so all the countries who want to be like go and see how much borrowings that they have done in the last four years nobody had a prescription that COVID-19 was coming it has set back the whole of the global economy and we are part of that global economy no matter how much we try to isolate ourselves from it now in terms of public debt the question to ask is which infrastructure project should we not do so if our opponents our major opponents come to say don't build the helpers then the public debt will reduce by the helpers we don't build or don't build the second Niger bridge which they were theorizing about as a political tool every election cycle and they could never get off the ground or Lagos Ibadon that they had for 16 years and couldn't find out in spite of the political prices from oil Lagos Ibadon was a sore of this nation when their government went to pay 12 billion dollars in order to get debt relief who does that when your house is leaking you have cash then first go and pray Kedrito and after that you start borrowing again and the house is still leaking as a major economic difference I would never have done that given the circumstances that we were so public finance is not it's not the same as a private finance I don't want to owe money all the nations of the world that want to be like the important thing is that you must invest your debt in infrastructure future generations will pay for it is a debate that we can have yes and I'm sure that the contenders in the election the candidates eventually will have this debate is a debate that we must have actually and the question is should we wait for the future generation to come and build it at tomorrow's cost because when the Niger bridge is completed this year every child that is born this year will drive past it yes so you know the ignorance around borrowing makes me wonder really whether our opponents well it's obvious that they don't understand public finance and that's why they took all our money to go and pay creditors who lent it back to us again because there was debt before we came so what was the purpose what was the game yes of going to pay the debt if you could not keep the clean the the slate clean then with the prolific oil process after paying off the debt in 2005 or so with the prolific oil income that followed from 27 2007 to 2015 in 2014 the minister of finance was telling us that Nigeria is heading for a recession that's how they left I didn't say so the minister of finance in the previous administration in 2014 announced that the country was heading for a recession so what happened that's what we met it was a recession foretold by them prepared for by them managed by them and handed over to us so that's what we meant oil prices are now tumbled so all the roads that we were talking about now all the bridges that's where all the money went preparing for the next generation we are in 77 tertiary institutions federal tertiary institution building their internal roads because education is not just the classroom the ability to get there yeah those are the things they left behind undone so that's the preparation for the next generation and we can have the debate then whether you want to leave it don't touch it leave it for the next generation in 30 years to come and do it in 30 years money so and I tell people the lucky bridge that we built at 29 billion when I was governor you can't build it at 29 billion anymore and this is less than one generation away this is one third of the generation away but children that were in pregnancy stay dead go to hospital went to the antinatal care using their bridge they are going to school now using it I think I made a good choice and I think the buahari administration is making a good choice join us again after the break as far as government's duty is concerned protection of lives and property the state of insecurity in the nation is disheartening I mean it's state like kaduna that has most military formations we're seeing it almost decimated every day there's one incident or the other you know so kuto in bauchi there villages that people have moved away from and abandoned because of insecurity people were relying on this president coming in as a former general of the nigerian army today is the commander in chief of the armed forces yet we are struggling to secure this country based on that alone many people say they're not voting for the apc again you have been unable to handle the insecurity in the country well I don't know about many people saying that they they are not voting for the apc I don't know where you got many people the security concerns are legitimate I share them I sympathize with the victims I sympathize with their families and it is a problem around which we can do a lot more but let me be very clear that the problems the immediate problems of security that we met we have dealt with them new ones have certainly emerged the militancy in the south-south the insurgency in the north east have been largely contained by this administration those were the things that we heritage and let me remind people that when I came into Abuja in 2015 there was barely any public space where you did not have a detachment of formation of soldiers in sandbags around this city in abuja and this city used to shut down at 7 p.m. that has changed before this administration national events like workers the independency held in the four a and the courtyard of the villa the president couldn't go to any place igus square was locked down all of that has changed that is progress even though we have some said but on a new on a new basis and and this is the morphology of crime it continues to change it doesn't remain static and so in assessing what has been done we must contextualize where it was and those things that have been dealt with and the new challenges and and I am the first to admit that there is a lot of work more to be done but security is dynamic is not static it continues to evolve and government must continue to outthink outspend and outmaneuver crime that's that's that's that's that's there's no compromise about that and I think that that will happen I don't have the details because that is not my core core core responsibility but from what I see I can make the call that the problems that we inherited have been dealt with and new problems have been matched and as far as I am aware they are being they're being confronted well congratulations on the houses we've given to the 1994 super eagles that was something really fantastic coming so late in the day do they actually have possession now are they yes I believe that they they do because what we tried to do the process of allocating houses is multi-stepped a multi-layered it starts it started from the then presidential pronouncement and nobody seemed to follow up and there were not even allocation letters so immediately we took over this we resolved that this was not going to be a question of allocation letters again we are going to do allocation letters we're going to do surveys to the properties we're going to prepare the title documents you see of us and we're going to also do the keys and that is all what we have done so presented this the some have received theirs on site right so you will see it when the commissioning is going on they go to the side they've chosen their houses so they're handed over the site at the commissioning is those who miss the commissioning that we came to present in the office right so they got their title this so there is not allocation letter anymore they don't have to come back to the ministry for anything so all they need to just do now report to the site where their keys will be handed over to them by the controller of housing in their states okay so that is all in our budget no no no no no no no is the national housing program that we asked them to go and choose where they wanted so some choose really some choose do delta or your wherever I will be so we have a controller of housing in each state just as we have a controller works in each state so the controllers have now been mandated to to hand them their keys on site. Yes, I've read criticisms that the houses should have been mansions, you know, that compared to what politicians living, giving them bungalows wasn't good enough. Well, I am not sure that the beneficiaries are the ones making those criticisms. And perhaps, yes, there's always room to do that, to build bigger houses for them. But we don't have bigger houses in possession. But we saw a problem that was left behind 28 years ago. We decided to do something to solve that problem. And I think that the beneficiaries understand and accept it as a gesture that is well-intentioned. And that no matter how late it is, it was most welcome that their country hasn't forgotten them. And I think that is the more important message that Nigeria will not forget, no matter how long it takes. And that this is the message that I think the president worries sending. That even though I didn't make these promises, even though it's taking so long, Nigeria will not forget. And that's very important. And you know, perhaps I can contextualize it. At this time, when they can't play football anymore, I'm sure they have children. They probably have wives. When did you play? This is the reflection of when I played. This is something to now show that it's true. I played. And my country has remained. And I think that's much more important than the size of the house. You said it's not enough to build houses. We need to market the empty ones which remain empty due to cultural or financial factors. What do you mean by that? You know, the housing problem is a global problem. And also it is an urban problem. And don't forget that urban problem because we have well documented a rural, urban drift globally. The United Nations has reported several that in the last 50 years, the migration of the human civilization from the rural area to the cities has been most prolific. This has been the quickest people moving to cities. And Nigeria again is not spared. So the question then is, is the answer only building? Because in those cities, there are empty houses. So can we build a way out of this shortage? Because some people are built and they are empty. And so that's the point I raise. How do we unlock those already built and empty houses? Because there are houses. How do we get people in them? Why we are also building more? Because there's a danger that you can build what you don't need. So it's applying a method. There must be a method to solving the problem. As some people say, even madness requires a method. All right. The first phase of the national housing program was launched in November 2021. I remember in 24 hours you had over, I think, 7,000 applications. But not much has been heard about it. The phase two hasn't kicked off. When should we expect phase two to kick off? And has phase one been completely concluded? OK. So let me clarify that. The construction of the houses has reached phase three in some states. In some states, it is at phase two. In some states, we are still struggling with phase one because we probably have community issues. But where we built the first phase, in some states, they're giving us a journey along with phase two. In some states, we finished phase three. But the allocation, which I think is what you were talking about, the opening of that portal to use an electronic model to allocate, like we did with the Lagos Homes in Lagos, has started. There were many applicants, thousands of applicants, but not every applicant is completing. A lot of people rushed to decide on excitement. But some of them are not completing. In fact, we just had a review meeting this afternoon of those who have completed, who see who is ready. So we are going to make some show of that to say that, look, this thing works. Yes. When you say completed, what is completed? There are things that they still need to do. Payment and all of that before you get your allocation letter. So if you haven't paid, but you have filled the form, you have submitted it, we're waiting. Take the next step, put your feet in water, and then we'll close the deal. So some people have stuck there. So we have thousands there and we're encouraging them. So we think that those who have closed the deal, who have paid, who have their allocation letters, and we want to issue their COOs and make a public show of it. We just finished that meeting this afternoon. So hopefully before the end of May, because of the holidays that I see ahead, we should be there. So that people will see that it actually works, that some people have benefited. Because the biggest currency we trade in is hope and believe that, oh, if Mr. Ajetu Mobi has got a home, that means that I can go. Yes. That's it. And the National Housing Program is the baby of the Ministry of Housing. Are there any other ways through which Nigerians can get homes? Oh, of course. The Federal Mugget Bank is also financing some developments. The cooperative housing scheme is there. Then there is the ministerial pilot housing scheme, which started before my time. We have about 2,000 housing units there to complete. And that was what I charged the Federal Mugget Bank Management newly inaugurated to make a priority to complete and bring that to the market. The Federal Housing Authority, FHA, is also beginning to try to complete some of its estates. But more importantly, the truth is that in other parts of the world, the biggest suppliers of housing is the private sector. That's the honest truth. So we are seeing now a large swathe of private sector developers. I see them on TV every day on radio, they advertise housing. And that really, really gladdens my heart so that that is happening during our administration. The private sector is beginning to play in real estate. In fact, I saw a report in One Newspaper this morning saying that there's a potential for, I think, several billions of dollars in the mortgage industry. And that's where the Federal Mugget Bank is going to be playing now with the new thing, trying to deepen the mortgage market to ensure that people can buy houses over their working life. Instead of going to buy it on a shelf, as if you're buying a pair of shoes and you have to pay everything at once. So that's where we're going. And you also talked about 34 estates. You know, I remember the last time you said, I think it was rivers or something else. Rivers and Lagos in the first administration, they have now given us land. But we haven't built. So in rivers and Lagos, I think in both instances when the first gave us land, we have to apply to them to change the lands because they are lands that we need to sand fill. If we do sand filling, the cost will have to be passed to the end users. And that's going to make it expensive. So that process of changing the land, they are on board now, but just as things haven't been completed. When you talked about, it's a question that you will have to debate and that you think that the candidates in the next election will debate. I actually thought you were going to place yourself into that debate. A lot of your supporters are worried, disappointed, appalled that you're not throwing your hat into the ring for 2023. You say I'm wearing a cap, not a hat. So I don't have a hat. I don't wear a hat. I wear a cap. Did you ever consider entering the presidential race 2023? I reflected about Nigeria a lot and I will serve my country to my last breath. That's where we want to leave it. Thank you very much. Honorable Minister for speaking with me today, spending an hour with me. Thank you for having me. And thank you for watching. I'm Angela Ajetumobi.