 Wow. So good to see everybody here. Good evening and thank you Professor Sullivan for your generous introduction. Before I start I thank Aunty Matilda and Giroir for your important welcome to country and I acknowledge the Ngunnawal and the Ngambri peoples and all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples joining us today both in person and virtually. People who have lived, loved, raised their families and cared for this country and waters for millennia before the arrival of the British that saw the subsequent disposal of lands, cultures, languages and identities across the nation. I'd also like to acknowledge all youth who will be our future leaders and the custodians of our stories, our languages, our histories and cultures and I emphasise youth because the 2021 ABS census in that census 33.2% of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population was under 15 years of age and this referendum is all about the future. Thank you to ANU and UC for hosting this important lecture and it's great to see so many here today in person and online. Congratulations to the recipients of the reconciliation awards and although National Reconciliation Week has passed reconciliation is an ongoing endeavour as the theme so aptly illustrates, be a voice for generations. The theme is about speaking up and carrying on the work of those who came before us to honour their legacy by acting now for those who come next. It's a call to not be silent but to raise our voices to demand action for a better future. We have more people than ever joining us on the reconciliation journey and adding their voice to reconciliation but it will take thousands more for us to continue to advance reconciliation. It's also heartening to note the 2,300 organisations with reconciliation action plans and the 10,500 schools and early learning services that engage with RA's Naragana Wally program. The program aims to increase awareness amongst young people about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures, histories and experiences helping to build peaceful and respectful relationships between Australia's many cultures. It also empowers teachers and educators to teach Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander histories with curriculum and other resources, digital content and a biennial national awards program. This is the essence of reconciliation, strengthening relationships between non-Indigenous peoples and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples for the benefit of all Australians. Empathy and understanding the perspective of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are paramount and this extends to questioning our unconscious biases. We all have unconscious biases so we must ask ourselves how did I land at this understanding and is it in fact or fiction? So this is a good segue into my next topic, the voice. Let's address the voice starting with the claim that the government's voice proposal lacks detail. Now I believe the information is readily available and I note that the current and former governments have endorsed the Kalmalankton final co-design report as guiding the potential structure and operation of the voice. You may recall that the voice initiative commenced under the reign of the Morrison government and was progressed by the current government. The co-design report has been in the public domain since December 2021 so there's no excuses for politicians not to have read it. I believe it is important to recognise some of the history and initiatives that have led us to this point in our shared history and why the referendum evokes so much passionate debate from all quarters. The call for a voice actually started soon after the arrival of the first fleet but I won't go back that far and I'll start from about the 1950s. In 1957 the Federal Council for the Advancement of Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders or Fikatsi was established and it had a central role in the success of the 1967 referendum but was disbanded when the National Aboriginal Consolidative Committee or the NACC was established and ran from 1973 to 1977. The NACC was an advisory body made up of 41 nationally elected Aboriginal people who advised the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs on Aboriginal policy. At that time Torres Strait Islanders weren't factored in. The NACC was replaced by the National Aboriginal Conference or the NACC that operated from 1977 to 84. Then there was a lapse until 1988 when a Senate Select Committee investigated the proposed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Bill and that committee suggested over 40 amendments most of which were incorporated. Subsequently over 90 amendments were made to the bill during the passage through the Parliament resulting in the establishment of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission or ATSIC in 1989 until it was disbanded in 2005. Post ATSIC the National Indigenous Council or NIC a PM's PIC group was established and lasted until soon after a change of government again in 2007. In February 2008 Prime Minister Rudd in his apology speech to Parliament called for a new partnership with Indigenous peoples to underpin policy development. He stated that our challenge for the future is to embrace a new partnership between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. The core of that partnership for the future is closing the gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians on life expectancy, educational achievements and employment opportunities. This new partnership on closing the gap will set concrete targets for the future. In March 2008 the Labor Government and Federal Opposition signed a statement of intent with the Indigenous Health Sector for a new partnership to close the gap in life expectancy within a generation and that's where we get that target date of 2031. This statement provided bipartisan support to develop a comprehensive, long-term plan of action that is targeted to need, evidence based and capable of addressing the existing inequalities in health services in order to achieve equality of health status and life expectancy between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and non-Indigenous peoples by 2030. Ensuring the full participation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and their representative bodies in all aspects of addressing their health needs. Respect and promote the rights of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and measure, monitor and report on our joint efforts in accordance with benchmarks and targets to ensure that we are progressively realising our shared ambition. The Honourable Jenny Macklin in the Budget 2008-9, Ministerial Statement on Closing the Gap stated that, the Australian Government's reform agenda, both in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander affairs and across governments, is to address the structural and systemic problems that are producing appalling outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Indigenous Australians must be involved in developing and driving solutions. We needed to see active results. Our closing the gap commitments required effective engagement with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples at all levels. Governors need to involve Indigenous peoples in the design and delivery of programs locally and regionally and share responsibility for outcomes. Solutions development on the ground must be driven by the communities that will ultimately determine their success or failure. The Government went to the election with a commitment to set up the national representative body to provide an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice within government. We will soon begin formal discussions with Indigenous peoples about the role, status and composition of this body. A bit reminiscent of what we're just talking about, I think. As the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner in July 2008, I presented to the Government an issues paper titled Building Sustainable National Indigenous Representative Body Issues for Consideration. It stated in a document, without proper engagement with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, Governments will struggle in their efforts to make lasting progress in improving the conditions of Indigenous peoples and in our communities. Further in a speech I presented at the National Native Title Conference in 2008, I said, much of the failure of service delivery to Indigenous peoples and communities and the lack of sustainable outcomes is the direct result of the failure to engage appropriately with Indigenous peoples and of the failure to support and build the capacity of Indigenous communities. It is the result of a failure to develop priorities and programs in full participation with Aboriginal peoples and communities. Put simply, Governments risk failure and will continue to do so if they develop and implement policies about Indigenous issues without engaging with the intended recipients of those services. Bureaucrats and Governments can have the best intentions in the world, but if their ideas have not been subjected to the reality test of the life experience of the local Indigenous peoples who are the intended beneficiaries of those services, then Government's efforts will fail. This need for participation exists at the local, regional and national levels. And again, this was in 2008. In August 2008, the Australian Government commenced consultations with Indigenous peoples on the establishment of a new national Indigenous representative body. Following extensive consultations and a deliberative dialogue that took place in Adelaide, the National Congress for Australia's First Peoples was formed in November 2009. However, another change of Government and the cessation of subsequent funding forced the National Congress to go into voluntary administration in June 2019. So my friends, you can see that there's been a checkered history of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander peoples' attempts to establish a national voice and have meaningful engagement with Governments and bureaucrats on matters that affect us. We have been the passive recipients of Governments' policies and programs that have mostly not addressed the wicked problems that confront us. Over the past 65 years, we've had successive national representative bodies. Their roles have varied as has their impact on policies and programs, and a constant has been the regular reviews of their structures and operations. We are now at the cusp of substantial and sustainable change in a political and community environment that is conducive to consider and support such change. So let's explore where we're at and read the voice. The first public milestone was reached on Monday when the Constitution Alteration Aboriginal Trusted on the Voice bill that authorises the referendum and sets out the question past the Senate, 52 in favour and 19 opposed, and earlier in the House of Representatives, 121 in favour and 25 opposed. If you're watching or heard the proceedings of the House of Reps or the Senate debates or followed the media, you'll observe that there are many conflicting and confusing messages at play. So let me unpack some of the miss and disinformation and what is needed to get the referendum over the line. The first issue is the Uluru Statement from the Heart and the Referendum for a Voice, the same thing. The Statement from the Heart refers to three key reforms, Voice, Treaty, Truth. The Statement calls for the establishment of the First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution. The proposed referendum, and this is important, will only be about amending the Australian Constitution to enable the establishment of a Voice to Parliament and the Executive Government. It is about the Commonwealth Parliament, Commonwealth Government Departments and entities and Commonwealth legislation. You will have no influence or involvement with the State and Territory affairs unless invited to by the relevant authorities. The referendum will not address treaty or truth telling. Treaty and truth telling dialogues at the national level will commence after the referendum. However, at a State and Territory level, processes have commenced with treaty discussions occurring in Tasmania, New South Wales, Queensland and South Australia. Treaty commissions have been established in the NT and Victoria and last month Queensland's path to treaty was set into law with the passing of landmark legislation. Victoria is the most advanced jurisdiction through enacting the advancing the treaty process with Aboriginal Victorians Act 2018, the First People's Assembly of Victoria in 2019 and a truth telling mechanism called the Uruk Justice Commission in 2021. And South Australia now has a legislated voice and the ACT has effectively had an elected voice since 2008. Another question is, why do we need to have this referendum? The referendum is a chance for our First Nations people to be recognised in the Constitution and enshrining an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice gives strength and status to the principles of respect and partnership. We need a voice so that future governments will make better policies that will make a practical difference for First Nations peoples. The voice will mean that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples will be advising governments when and hopefully before decisions are made about laws and policies impacting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians. It will heal our nation and lead to better policies and practical outcomes as First Nations peoples often know what governments need to do when it comes to things like education, health, housing, management of country and family violence. This is a once in a generation opportunity to change our Constitution and place our nation on a pathway to a better future. It also creates the elements of redress post the 1992 High Court decision to overturn the fiction of Terran alias by recognising Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in the Constitution. Up until 1967, Aborigines as we were called at that time were referenced in the Constitution but Torres Strait Islanders have never been mentioned and this is an opportunity to address that. So what happens after the referendum? As it currently stands if successful the government will propose a bill or legislation to address the voice composition, functions, powers and procedures. The bill will be tabled in the House of Representatives where it will be debated and typically referred to a joint parliamentary committee for community consultation. It is at this stage that we'll get to know the details that everybody's so desperate to hear of the voice and if past history is any indicator the introduced bill will be amended multiple times so what is the proposed bill that goes in is not necessarily what will eventuate after it passes through Parliament but that is our democratic process and as I'd indicated with the ASIC bill that was subjected to approximately 120 or so amendments so you can imagine very different what went in what came out and yet that wasn't what was originally proposed so we had to work within an environment that politicians had developed for ASIC and in part they can share the blame of why it didn't succeed as successfully as it could have. And we'll all remember the original claims that are still being promoted by opponents that the voice will operate like a third or fourth chamber of parliament. The Prime Minister has repeatedly said voice would not have a veto over the decisions of parliament it will be an unflinching source of advice and accountability not a third chamber nor a rolling veto the body will be an advisory body only it will have no ability to hinder parliamentary processes it will not have any veto powers and could not introduce legislation or change it and that the parliament is under no obligation to follow the voices advice. Now the House of Representatives and the Senate will continue to make laws regulations and pass motions regardless of what the voice may advise but as I've indicated to members of the crossbench and others is that if the government of the day doesn't want to heed the advice that was offered by the by the voice group then it's up to the other politicians to if they see there's there's merit in being advised to take it up through the democratic process and some of them get it. Now some then say you know if you're only an advisory body you know you're a toothless tiger without influence so why have it? Well what we have to remember is that there's a vast number of advisory bodies to the parliament covering all sorts of issues and they include and this is what currently exists the Auditor General the Australian National Audit Office the Australian Law Reform Commission the Australian Human Rights Commission and the Commonwealth Ombudsman whose reports are all tabled in parliament this is just how democracy works and let's not forget government departments and entity heads and as Julian Lisa MP recently stated during the house debates the voice will advise just like the security services the Chief Medical Officer the Chief Scientist DFAT and other agencies advise the parliament will still be supreme in matters of law and policy you wouldn't believe that if you listen to the Senate debate the other day you'll also note that former High Court judges and constitutional law experts support Prime Minister Albanese's description of the voice powers while others do not and we must also remember that it's post the referendum that the parliament will actually determine what the what the powers are and and the mode of operandi of that of that body another claim is that it will divide us by race it will give First Nations people's more rights than others well this is not about race politics the dividing Australians it's about uniting Australia and making our nation stronger the voice is not about a special right it is about a basic right all Australians will remain equal in the eyes of the law the ruler law will still prevail the only thing that changes is that there will be a permanent new body to provide advice on Commonwealth laws policies and programs that affect Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples if it is not a special right then why should it be why should this be well simply because Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are the only Australian citizens who have laws specifically written for them further the constitution already references race through section 25 and section 51-26 and section 51-26 is known as the race power and these exist in our constitution the fact is that section 51-26 has only ever been exercised on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples another piece of disinformation relates to the reported 33 billion dollars expenditure on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples that infers that it is disproportioned to expenditure on non-indigenous Australians and in some way there's a gift to all of us which I've yet to find out where I can get that gift from but anyhow I'm sure others are still looking as well the facts are that the 33 billion dollars represents 6% of the 522.7 billion dollars spent on non-indigenous Australians in 2015-16 in the budget what is important is to unpack what that 33 billion dollars comprises according to the Australian Parliament House official website in 2015-16 the Australian government directly spent 14.7 billion on Indigenous peoples of which 77% of that 14.7 billion was through mainstream programs such as Medicare social security payments childcare benefits and support for university places accessed by Indigenous peoples all mainstream programs that we're all entitled to as our citizenship rights around 23% was on Indigenous specific programs such as abstudy Indigenous specific health programs or Indigenous ranger programs when state and territory government spending is included mainstream spending climbs to over 80% of the total expenditure on Indigenous Australians so roughly only about 6.6 billion dollars is spent on programs to address the inequalities experienced by First Nations peoples and that's what the close of gap or closing the gap is all about so one might suggest that any responsible politician should know these facts the final piece of disinformation that I'd like to address relates to the claim by two Indigenous politicians by social media and some Indigenous commentators that not all Indigenous peoples support the voice and that the voice will be dominated by these elite Canberra academics I think I'm the only one in the group but anyhow so big boy but not that big so I'm not sure how this is going to be the case because if they'd read the Code Design Report only two of the 24 proposed members of the voice will be from Canberra as outlined in the Code Design Report it is however true that there are a wide range of views amongst First Nations peoples just like any group of Australians Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are diverse and don't all think the same way or look the same I must say however the voice proposal is a result of successive processes of consultation and engagement involving thousands of individuals and engaging with communities right across the country First Nations leaders have been calling for this reform for decades now I'm confident there is overwhelming support within First Nations communities which will only continue to grow just last week you might recall from the Barunga festival all the land councils of the Northern Territory the four land councils and all agreed to it as did the New South Wales Aboriginal Land Council and they've all declared their full support for the voice so it counters these claims that you know it's all about you know just the urban the people from the bush are going to miss out etc or people from the bush are talking about you know their support and need for for such a voice they join the vast majority of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander peoples nationally who support the voice now while this is important the reality is the 96% of the non-indigenous voting population and that means you many of you out there will determine the outcome of the referendum and this is why allies play a crucial role in having conversations with families friends colleagues and through writing to politicians and newspapers dispelling disinformation and explaining why they should support change for a better future that's the sort of letter writing campaign that we did for the Close the Gap campaign because in 2006 when it was kicked off the coalition at the time went interested in it 20,000 letters later they started to get a little bit interested but Labor took the jump on them and and formed the Close in the Gap approach they took to the election subsequently won can't say they won just because the Close the Gap but you know we'll we'll we'll claim it so there's much more that I could say but my time is up and there is an opportunity for you to ask me questions in the Q&A session I've endeavored to demonstrate that Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander peoples have for over 65 years attempted to have a voice that would guide government and parliaments on how to effectively design and implement policies and programs that will have a positive impact to achieving equality for all First Nations Australians we're experiencing advancements that's true although the the Close in the Gap targets don't always outcomes don't always say that but the issue is that we're not in not experiencing advancements at the same pace that other Australians are doing so this is a result in the Gap not closing but actually running parallel I've also endeavored to shine light on the way forward and how all of the voting population needs to become informed of the facts and not be swayed by the miss and disinformation that is being promoted by pundits who are either ill informed or have malicious intent thank you well thank you so much Professor Karma for such incisive and clear words very much needed I think given what is happening all around us as Professor Karma indicated there is an opportunity now for us to have questions from the floor so we've got about 10 or 15 minutes I think I don't have a watch so we could be here all night but I'm sure somebody will alert me to time but if you would like to ask a question then please line up either at the microphone on that side or at the microphone on that side and we will get through as many questions as we can this is a really important opportunity for you to speak directly to one of the co-creators of The Voice and I'm sure you wouldn't want to miss it I'm going to seek the privilege of the chair to ask the first question which is you've laid out very clearly just how damaging the disinformation and misinformation is and you've given some indication of the things that allies as you call them could do I wonder you know I'm sure there will be many people in the room thinking well you know what else could we do yes we could write letters and we may but are there other things that you think that we could be doing that would actually make a difference yeah thank you you look I think I also mentioned in there that have the conversations around the dinner table workplace you know which is a great way to start it's also you know there's plenty of information out there on websites like voice.gov.au or you can look at the campaigns who also produce material and the AEC Australian Electoral Office website is also a good one because that covers all the information it's a lot of civics education around a constitution how amendments take place actually it informs on how parliament actually operates because we know and we know this because during the recognised campaign some years ago following the expert panel on constitutional reform the previous government allocated money to go out and work within the community we found then and we still find now that there is a great apathy but be a lack of knowledge about how we're governed and so you know I think they're the big issues so it's it's getting the right sort of information as well and you know you can be I think you have to be discerning you have to recognise that the conservative media the sky and so forth they talk about opinion they also throw up hypotheticals that are potentially never going to happen to try and bring out an extreme view but there's nothing threatening in this process particularly not threatening for non-indigenous Australians and in the longer term we will see a lot more benefits for Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people which will have a spin-off for non-indigenous Australians and so you know that's the opportunity and of course little plug for reconciliation you know get onto the reconciliation Australian website there's a lot of information there and you know I I'm not aligned to any of the campaigns I try to just keep a neutral position to to keep people informed and so does our aim okay so I think we have a question here and a question there can you hear me yeah hi Tom it's Kamara I wanted to ask you said that there could be changes in the bill after the referendum if there are changes so the referendum working group isn't happy with them yeah are you able to step in and advise on that or yeah good question it's currently under you know the referendum working group was going to just exist up until the time that that the bill got through with the question and and also what the amendment to the or the machinery the machinery act you know got through which has now happened we're currently having a discussion about whether we have a longer role but what we know is that governments and government departments and politicians supposedly shouldn't be out there promoting a yes or no campaign once the bill is passed and and the Australian Electoral Office will be keeping a close eye on that so we're not sure about what our what our status will be you know beyond but yeah I think you know you always wish that that they might listen but there'll be a lot of legwork happening between now and when the referendum is called you know trying to establish relationships trying to inform and educate politicians you know and look to be frank I think they do know there's a political game that's going on and unfortunately we're the ones that are going to be you know detrimental impacted by that little game that the pollies are playing so I don't know Kamara G'day Professor Kalma Dr Amanda Watson I work here I was just wondering how confident you are because I know that there's quite a high bar you have to get a majority in a number of states and so on so how confident are you feeling about the referendum being successful you're pretty confident you know there's there's there's been a whole lot of mixed view we haven't and when I say we I mean the the campaigns haven't kicked off in earnest until we knew what the question was and and now that we know what the question is we know the process that has got through that I think you know they'll start to really ramp up I know that I've got quite a number of engagements you know booked over the coming months to to get out and speak to groups like yourself and and and yeah but I'm you know reasonably comfortable and and confident it's hovering you know depends on which poll you listen to and we also know that polls aren't really that successful in recent years as the indicating success so but the the to surveying that we've been doing the polling that we've been doing through reconciliation Australia and some of the other other parties are indicating that are still hovering in excess of 50% and and but now that we're getting some of these big organizations involved like 120 of the the major multicultural organizations around the nation have all lent their support so they'll start to now go out and work with their their membership as well you know universities I think we've got about 20 universities signed up well at least expressed a a viewer support we've got you know hundreds of organizations both non-government and government or government not allowed to but for-profit organizations have all lent their support so you know what you're going to see is a whole lot more activity now now take place with with some some confidence so yeah I think it will it will be good it will be successful and that's why you have a role to to also you know try and address some of this misinformation and disinformation and the thing about disinformation is where it's misinformation that's intentionally put out there to misinform um you know misinformation you can say okay well maybe there's a mistake but disinformation is intentional Professor Kalma Shane Mortimer Ngambri Elder Hey Shane and I established the International Legal Precedent of a Lodial Title of All First People as a result appointed to the forum of world leaders that meets once a year in Portugal Ngambri, Canberra Canberra is named after my family I have nine generations in a consecutive line of women that connect me to this land and I have a fair idea in the work that I do as a lecturer in the field of social sciences First People and Human Services and the Discipline of Social Work and having covered a lot of that having written that course and having looked very hard at the Australian Government I see a one-third ethnic Anglo minority that disenfranchises two-thirds of the ethnic population of this country I see a government run by a crown it is British Crown Owned that nobody can deny British Crown Owned and I see from my correspondence with Queen Elizabeth last year that the crown has no beneficial title to the land in this country absolutely none Her Majesty wrote back to me on the 28th of July just weeks before her death She wrote back to me from Balmoral in her deathbed and she dictated to the private secretary to thank me for my correspondence and that the Governor-General is required now to give further consideration to the points that I raised The point I raised was where is your evidence that you acquired the allodual title from my ancestors to establish your federal capital Canberra here on my land there is no evidence and then I see in my research the High Court of Australia in the Denning Law Journal the preeminent law journal of the British Isles the Denning Law Journal edited by a sitting British judge and here they published that pointing to a defect in the element of international relations within Australian sovereignty and emphasising the irony of the dictum Bright Jent Justice Brennan former High Court Chief Justice as above Justice Crispin went on to conclude that Australia did not act as a civilised country so because it appeared to him that while the law effectively ratified the convention into Australian municipal law he concluded that no criminal offence of genocide existed in domestic law in Australia and you're telling me that you would swear allegiance to a British crown that has no title to this land the title rests with all first people across this land and a small group of people of 20 or 24 cannot speak for each and every one of those nations I do oppose this voice to parliament and I think you know that only too well but I don't see that it's going to get us any further than ASIC did this government's not throwing billions of dollars at this referendum without expecting something in return what are they getting in return Mr Kalmer Shaina I think most of that I'll take as a comment only because I think you know you've got to continue your quest with with the courts to progress a lot of your title and yeah law bulletin the British crowns own publication established a lot of your title worldwide which is why I was appointed to the forum of world leaders oh good well they might be able to do something 500 companies and the heads of state of all countries that's where I'm at well yeah look you know that's good if that's that's where you're at and but you know for the rest of us and there's there's plenty of Aboriginal and Torres Islander people out there who have got past the hurdle of native title or recognition with the overturning of the documenter and alias which is one step and from my understanding if you look at the declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples article 461 or whatever says that nothing in that declaration which is a universal declaration that was developed by Indigenous peoples and and the Human Rights Commission that nothing in that declaration usurps the role of the sovereignty of the state so that's I think we're going to have to move on there are other people who need to ask questions yeah can we move on to the next question please thank you for a great speech Tom I just had a question building on what you're saying before about the political games do you worry about the time it might take for the bill to make its way through the House and the Senate and also even the possibility that it doesn't pass at all yeah look you can never tell the ASIC when I mentioned the 120 amendments took a year to get through and brought time into a committee the government's already indicated that they expect it'll go to a committee the committee will then go out and consult with the community and and come back and help inform the you know the lower house before it goes up to to the Senate yeah look who knows you know we're still pretty confident that and when you look at what's happening nationally and and that you've seen defections from some of the major parties you've already seen within the the Liberal Party that that the only people that are bound to to follow the the Liberal Party's position are the front benches shadow front benches and that others could have a free vote once it gets out to the free vote in the in the ballot box you know we'll see how that goes and how many people actually jump over but you know that's the concern we shouldn't think that all all Liberals or all National Party members are opposed to it because we already seen across all the states and territories that there are many of of that bleak persuasion who who support the voice yep it it it won't be an easy ride but you know we've got a we know that there's a a lot of support and I'll read out the numbers you know 121 in the lower house and and 51 or two in the upper house that that put it through so that those opposed to it were you know the vast minority I think we've probably got time for maybe one more question yep so you please hello um thank you for your lecture I'm writing a paper on reconciliation and the impact that the voice the parliament brings on that so I just wanted to ask in your opinion what would be the most important aspect of the voice to parliament to ensure effective indigenous representation in Australia you're going to cite me in your paper as a co-contributor now look I think the voice and it's already happening within the reconciliation movement um people have have supported um you know the plight of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and I think this is just going to be another level up and we'll see greater support you know across across the board as I mentioned you know those 10 and a half thousand wraps with with education schools and early childhood centres are an indication that our future is looking pretty positive because there's a whole cohort of people that are going to be much better educated about Australian history and and an understanding about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and people of my generation and and maybe the generation below who had denied that that sort of information at the you know at the school level but I think we also there was a major shift in 2008 with the National Apology where it became a very big movement of understanding amongst the general population who weren't weren't really aware of the atrocities that were perpetrated on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and it became even more important to a lot of people when they found out that these same conditions were applied to the forgotten Australians those people who were brought over as orphans from England, from the UK and um and we had this subsequent apology by Julia Gillard to that group and um you know and we had a very common common experience and and you know with those sort of experiences that you have intergenerational and transgenerational traumas which are still existing and and you know the work that's been done on say the stolen generations that the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare has done indicates that they're the the descendants of people who are in from a stolen generations background still have the worst education outcomes, employment outcomes health outcomes compared to people who weren't removed so so this is all part of a you know I think a bigger movement the voice is going to be the start of a process and and soon after the voice gets up we'll see movements in in truth telling much greater and you know the university sectors done a great job out of Newcastle University where they've mapped out the 400 or so massacre sites around Australia that people didn't realise that they existed but they're well documented now as we're getting greater access to archival material the historians are doing a lot of work so all of this is leading towards I think a better understanding of each other and and the plight of first first nations peoples which all lead into into a reconciliation movement sorry that is all the time that we have for questions but as we bring the event to a close I'd like to extend my gratitude obviously to Professor Karma but also to each and every one of you for being here and being part of this really important event and as Professor Karma has indicated so well in his speech and his answers to the questions this year in particular holds great significance as we approach the voice referendum and all of the things that are going on now around the voice referendum and that further amplifies the importance of our advocacy and our actions we hope that ANU can serve as a resource for you at this critical point in our nation's history the students in the audience here tonight are invited to join us for our next event on August the 2nd which is the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice a dialogue for students the dialogue for students has been developed by the ANU First Nations portfolio and will feature a live panel of Indigenous leaders on the voice and political representatives from the major parties moderated by the ANU's Professor Mark Kenney with questions coming directly from our national student body so keep an eye on our Experience ANU events page for upcoming details more information and details will be available shortly but that's all to come just a note for your diary if you are a student for this evening I think we have all learned a great deal from Professor Tom Karma some of you I know in this audience have lived and re-lived and had to re-learn this so many times we hope that this year there will be movement and there will be different the outcome will be different and positive but in the meantime would you please join me in thanking Professor Tom Karma