 Welcome everyone back to a conversation. I'm having with a an old friend colleague his name is Tom Buford and Tom, you know, I I well, let me just say what I know about our work together and then you can say more about you so Tom and I Met probably back in I'm gonna guess 2010 or 2011. Yeah, and you met through the Mutual introduction from a joint venture partners probably I'm good and So the back then we did a couple of JVs together joint ventures where You know Tom had a wonderful course that I promoted to my list. It was a I think you might I'm gonna promote it Two of yours. I think that one was Charge what you're worth I believe Yeah charge charge what you deserve and then second one was Create a course in them in a week info product weekend Yeah, yeah, so so I promoted those and then Tom also promoted my my things to his list and we both been Financially successful in the internet marketing space and we have both really seen a lot of different models What's worked and what hasn't worked? we've also seen a lot of the Manipulation in our industry and the practices that Work in terms of getting short-term Buyers sales, but we haven't felt great about it And that's why we want to have this conversation to bring light to some of those practices so that everyone who's watching this can Hope maybe you'll recognize some of this having been done to you But hopefully you will be more aware of what's being done so that you don't get You don't get the wool pulled over your eyes for for future launches and things like that and and so that you realize that There is a better way. I mean, hopefully we can expose what's What is clearly not what our conscience is approving of and what is not? What what doesn't what is not the kind of world that we want to create and then we can talk about maybe alternative Alternative ways, but even just exciting even just exposing the practices that we don't like will keep us more aware so that we can work on Practices that we do believe it and try things in a way that really is more aligned to To our higher ethics and and to how we want to treat people and how we want to be treated as well So yeah Welcome and thanks for doing this. Yeah, I appreciate it and this this really came I think pretty organically with from you and I you were the first to really step out and say, you know what? I'm gonna stop doing some of these things. We've been doing over the years and and there was never any intent to manipulate or coerce people or anything like that it just I Think we wound up doing things that just seemed normal, right? This is just what you do in marketing Yeah, and then you start thinking wow, you know, we I think when you're on the other end of it, too like buying and getting hooked on some of these big launches and all this and then you really take a good look and you and I have the opportunity to be to be behind the scenes of launches and really see what happens and Many times everything is you know above board and being done. Well, but in many many times I think things are being done to manipulate just to get more sales, right in the long term. It doesn't It doesn't serve it certainly doesn't create a market. I think that we all want to live in so that that's So you really stepped out I think I mean definitely well before me and you had the courage to do that and did this really change your business model And so I was inspired by that and kept kind of hounding you a little bit like George How's this going? You know, what's news like this is scary, right? Yeah, here. You're a couple years and you're still here, right? You're you surrounded so yeah, I've certainly made some some choices that that you know have affected my income even but I feel That's okay. You know, it's it's it's good And what's I think Required what's been required of us as a result is to be more creative Launching and selling in a way that feels good to us that we really believe in and that I think as a result of Yeah, radical changes definitely if definitely decreased my income by a lot in just a couple of years that I made the changes But what I what I have noticed over time is that it's created far better relationships With people that I work with that I'm proud of that There's more referrals as a result and yeah, so that's really good But maybe just to go back to some of the practices that we saw that we We didn't agree with that we felt were unnecessary, but people were using it for short term sales Give an example of what what what what you saw? Well, the main thing and this is how I built my list was just through JV's so the joint venture and promotional partnerships Which are fine there's definitely a place for them, but what happened is I and you too I think you know we were both kind of in this circle of people that were doing joint ventures and I think what hit me was when When somebody was supposed to be promoting me and let's just say January. This is a few years ago And I was told and this is on the calendar for quite a while And then I was told in January not by this person whom I do know personally He never opted to reach out to me personally. Wow his JV manager said well Tom We're gonna have to take you on the off of the calendar unless you're in our top 10 Right, we're only we have to really limit. We're gonna promote only to our top 10, right? So from a business perspective people would say well, yeah, that's fair, right? But if you have to think about it what that means is that if you're in their top 10 It doesn't matter what you're selling. They're going to promote it And they're gonna promote it all out. And so if you're on that person's list You're getting emails from this person saying I've got this great colleague and friend who they probably don't know And because they were a top affiliate partner, right? That's why they're a great colleague and friend. That's your great colleague and friend, right? So It just really I guess for me it was is I had to start reflecting on Is this what I'm part of and by the way, I should say that the what you just said is Is the normal way that internet marketers do business So everybody who is watching this was listening to this You are on probably if you're subscribed to different email newsletters and different people's Promotions and their content or whatever you're very likely on these lists where you are just getting promoted the stuff that Of of their colleague or friend who just really promoted them as well It's all based not on Yeah, tom really, you know, you know, joe really believes in george's product. That's why he's sharing it No, no joe. It's promoting george's stuff because george Uh was successful enough in prince joe stuff doesn't matter whether joe's audience needs what george has or george's audience needs what joe has It's we're really good at copywriting and that's the key like If you're really good at copywriting meaning writing things writing Emails and web pages that make audiences salivate because it's so good like so juicy Right makes us salivate that. Oh my god. It's so good. I can I can have an easy life just by buying this product That's right. The silver bullet The silver bullet like if I if I buy this product, it'll solve these problems Guaranteed if I does it if it doesn't work. I just get my money back. How great this is There's nothing there's nothing to lose and look at all these wonderful testimonials. Look at all these people Right. Yep. You talk about who those testimonials really are but the testimonials like they're they're getting amazing results So I must get pretty good results. I mean gosh if these people are are making, you know Buy my thing and you'll make $10,000 a month and gosh, even if I made seven or eight thousand a month just by buying this system Or the solution it's great. And so Great copywriting can sell anything and I think that's also one of the problems that I have is that That's it. You know, it's like with great copywriting. It doesn't Great copywriting doesn't prove whether a product or service is good It just proves whether that person is good at copywriting. Correct. You know and and copywriting good copywriters are Very intentionally writing based on they want to tap into emotion And that's like the number one thing if I think if a copywriter said, hey, I have to keep one tool And that's it. It would be okay. How can I? How can I really tap into people's emotions because that's what people People will buy based on emotion. I think justify based on Logic, but they buy based on emotion. Yes a copy they do that. So they really oh look how your life could be And so it actually makes people I think feel more Feel worse about their certain that their current situation than they should Or than they would prior to reading that or hearing about this right because You know, this is an issue in the in the united state. Well, everyone in the world, but um as we're getting A larger gap between I don't want to talk politics here Right, but but you know, it's no it's no mystery our middle class is disappearing Yeah, Canada. I think now is is considered has the strongest middle class World not going to get into again politics or yeah, no, it's everything like this, right? Yeah, but the u.s Middle class is shrinking what happened. There's also depression rates that are going up significantly and part of this people I've seen some research say that it's this comparison between where people are to where They think they could be And so that comparison really it's like this juxtaposition that makes us really look and think poorly of ourselves Even though if we didn't want to wear this and now we're aware because of media Right because everything's on the internet. It's so easy to get a hold of And then people put out there, you know, they're kind of fake lives on social media too, you know, right No, and what what you're saying actually is I think it's really important to to to just remember to bring to light because I was um Like every year, there's a there's a world happiness day I guess that's part of the the un and the un out this report That they've done, you know studies from many countries about happiness They have like different metrics for that and and yet again this most recent report The conclusion was that Societies that are more equal economically Are happier. Yeah, and it's and just like what you're saying is if within a society There is less of people wanting what someone else has Wow, you know, it was like, oh, we all have you know the same brand of car basically People tend to be happier because there's tend to be better communities all over But yeah, what you're saying is exactly right. It's like what copywriters are doing on the internet Is that they I think what I call is they they kind of they stoke the fires of desire Yes, right and they say they say you're you're not you're not Complete your life is not Well-lived until you or your business is not is you know the one thing you must have One mistake you're making yes in your business is that you're not doing this and if you buy this then you finally Have the completion and it's and so we keep spending our money because we're thinking I I can I can buy I can buy a feeling of completion. I can buy We're not consciously thinking this But we're emotionally feeling it and that's exactly what you're saying, right? That's right. Copywriters who are good at getting us to take out our wallet and spend our money Is Creating that gap and literally. Yes Literally, this is the typical sales training. Yep And it's about the two the typical sales training is you get into a conversation Where you are doing your best to create the gap in the prospect's mind That this is where they are and this is really where they want to be don't they? Yeah, isn't that painful of a gap and you the service provider are the solution to get them from You know point a to point b so that they can be happy complete fulfilled Free from fear and comedy and and insecurity and Yeah, yeah, the conversation is supposed to widen the gap and that's right. You're supposed to You know shorten the gap, right? That's the whole that's the sales process That's these recessions to sell and all that stuff, right? That's what they're all based on Yeah, yeah, it's you know talk someone find out where they are. Why where do they want to be? Why aren't they where they want to be right in a way and you know then really agitate? That's where they talk about that's right Agitate right when that she's like let's just think about this. You know in terms of the golden rule Do we want someone to agitate us? I know Well, and if you're having me driving a Honda Right, but come on. Wouldn't you be happier if you could drive a Mercedes or a Porsche wouldn't that isn't that what you want? Like oh, man. I don't know you know now that you think about it It's like what would it make you feel like if you had a Porsche Yeah, I guess you know and so you start thinking this when you were perfectly happy driving the Honda Yeah, and And maybe you do want a Porsche and that's fine if that's what you want, but right to create this kind of false sense of what? That's where I think that's that's right. That's exactly right um I I always like to kind of bring up You know to remind us of the fact that we all believe in the golden rule Yeah, um Do treat others like how we want to be treated? And in marketing we are taught to just throw that out the door. It's like we treat people We we we instill more fear and more greed in them so that they'll buy from us now Here's the thing though The those who teach this they justify it and I'd love to hear your opinion on this they justify it tom by saying well, you're but the Having them buy from you really is good for them and so The the seller of the Porsche would say Tom Yeah, you're you're happy with your Honda, but I know you'll be happier with a Porsche Yep, I don't care what your financial situation is and that's actually part of what my my complaint is Yes With marketers is that they don't truly care about their prospects? Especially they don't care about the prospects financial situation. They just Do they think that their job as a marketer is just to sell and to make that sale successful Yes, and it's their prospects. They completely put the burden of responsibility On the prospect to say that well buyer beware the prospects Business is the prospects job is to do the due diligence suppose Diligence look at their own budget Yeah rational decision But like you've already said tom marketers what what marketers excel at is bypassing the rational Going to the emotion. Yeah but so okay, so Tom, you know I I think the Porsche is right for you. You need a Porsche. You'll be happier with a Porsche Your friends will respect you more So I think I'm going to do everything I can to get you to buy my Porsche Yeah, I mean if you could show me statistically that people are actually happier buying Porsche Right, but we know that this stuff's not true in our industry I think in the marketing the problem is that even at the highest end right even to hide the people selling the highest end stuff Um the results Frankly that the clients get Right, if you could tell me hey listen 90 of the people to go through my program get the results Exactly, even even even 60 percent Even 20 because it's probably five or ten. No, it's true. I'm probably being generous. Yeah, even at high end Uh, you know people that are investing $30,000 taking seconds out on their their home Yeah, I mean doing things that they just should not be doing right. I remember there's someone not long ago Well, actually it's been at least a year This email came out and I guess I was on their list for some reason. I wasn't after this because I promptly Unsubscribed but I knew exactly what the email was because it seemed someone else to do the same headline And it was basically are you investing in your business or are you taking your business or whatever it was? and it was something the effect of You know if you're a coach you You've got to be investing in your business just like any other company invest in their business And that means taking your credit cards and if you have to max out your credit cards You need to do this and then guess what this was doing then they're selling their their high end coaching at the at the end of this right And I'm thinking you know, I think people have Are misconstruing what it Takes to actually go and get a business loan for a business. It means having credit means having a business plan It means having actually already having some profits. You have to show some income There are things that you have to do to invest into a business Yeah, we're gonna find investors that like your idea enough. Yeah, they'll do it based on You know this this early stage So to say this this this is that's again, it's so manipulative To tell people and get really guilt them into well, gee aren't you investing in your business? And if you're a smart business owner smart business owners Invest in their businesses and they take out loans and if that means a credit card then do it And that's the kind of marketing we're talking about that we're faced with and it's It's false first off because I mean anyone says that has no idea what they're talking about in terms of what they What it takes to get a business loan. Yeah, so this is a completely false comparison, but Perioding and above Yes, and I I Sometimes I say that I hear this giant sucking sound of Money that's going all these people who should not be spending money On these fine programs and going to the top Yes going to the top the the those six seven eight figure coaches who are using this these kinds of tactics I think like a Ponzi scheme almost right right. Yeah, it's like all the money going from the bottom Get all this money and it comes up here and then some of it circulates back around right because but at the end Right, there's not enough money to support it Yeah, yeah, because there's no money being made actually being made. Yeah money being made is coming from everyone below this top person And they're spending it right that's not not saving it So so the key the key that just to complete this particular example Yeah, the key problem is that these high-end programs most of the coaching programs Don't have accurate reviews or testimonials Now everyone watching this and listening to this to Understand that when you see testimonials and social proof On someone's website, they are almost exclusively using The top One to five percent of their customers who for whatever reason succeeded with their program and oftentimes These customers who's like I bought Sally's program and now I'm making $10,000 a month because of her system A lot of times this person who was making now making $10,000 What have been making that much anyway without Sally's system or maybe Maybe she was on the verge of Changing something that is now making her successful and she's now Sally is asking her can you write a testimonial for me to say that now you're making this money or whatever It's it's not like amazon what even amazon could be gained right the reviews there Reviews now it's terrible now too so now but but but still like you were not getting We're not getting sort of unbiased reviews of these expensive programs No Yeah, in fact, I was in a mastermind. This is a few years ago I was in a small mastermind with some people I'd met at an event in 2007 in california and one of the guys in the mastermind gave a He gave a testimonial for the person that you know, we were at at this guy's event Now it wasn't this guy's fault the other guy's fault because he didn't really it wasn't really privy to how this Came about but we knew because of the mastermind conversations What happened he said I made $46,000 And he did I mean he made a lot of money using the strategies that I learned from So and so this person But it was based on It was under the false pretense that he had no list to start All from scratch, but the reality is that he had a really good sized list of of uh, and high like high end like executives, right? He was an executive Uh, coach And so he started this new thing this kind of info product, you know information marketing thing Had a launch made some really good money. And so it seemed like oh from scratch I just started because he just started this product, right But he'd been building this business for a long time and that also was a lot and that that alludes to what you were saying too is that Some of these people that give the testimonials they make they might be making a million dollars right now And they know this person and you know this launch partner and they say hey, I made you know, 30 000 last month Trying this guy's strategy, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the actual revenue that normal months I mean not even a normal month. I mean that's just like uh, just yeah, they tested something and they've got a huge list and Yeah, so maybe that's an extreme example and that's not all that's going on but it that's that is definitely part of Pretty common honestly Tom because I when I was using those kinds of tactics back in 2010 2011 I remember having a client who used my social media system and earned $10,000 And I used that testimonial when I but when I suspected I didn't see just because she gave me a testimonial I was like really excited, but I kind of suspected that actually her business is such that It wasn't that big of a deal that she made $10,000 and I didn't like to dig into it because I didn't really want to see And you know, I wanted testimonial to to share and you know, I of course I look back and I said well gosh I'm I'm glad that I'm coming out of that and not using those kind of tactics anymore So so I'd love to switch gears if you're interested and talk about because I know a lot of We've been talking a lot about what the things that we don't want to do. Yes So now let's talk about all right. What is a better way or what are we experimenting with? What are we? Seeing that others are doing that that that are honorable or that the things that we are doing that We feel good about That are working or have a good potential of working any any Anything you want to start with there? I'll say just something I did recently Triggered a really positive response from some people and so this is what's going to turn some people off I made no money directly from this thing, right? So I think that we have to be thinking long term So yeah, I have been and I've been doing this right doing these webinars where it's get people to sign up You're going to share, you know three tips and then you're going to sell your course at the end Right, that's it great. It's a great formula. It can work Um the problem like I see a lot of people doing this and they're talking about themselves for 20 minutes and Yeah, I kind of share some content, you know, yeah, so even if I'm doing that I'm always sharing content that people can take like you don't have to buy anything you can take this But the other day I'm still getting kind of uncomfortable with that too Even though that's so many people doing this now and yeah every time I see it's another opt-in for a webinar And they're not going to give me any information, right? They're just going to sell me their course at the end and it's just becoming This Scene of this, right? So I'm going back to the negative totally The time and I have to say the reason why You don't think these free webinars giving you information Is because you have really been around the block. I mean You know, we haven't done a deep intro of you, but You've been in the standard of marketing Uh Industry longer than I have. Um, I mean you were mentioning 2007. I didn't start to 2009 Yeah, uh, so you've been longer and and you've really studied a lot of different systems So a free webinar isn't impressive to you, but it might be impressive to Can you be like, oh my god, I didn't know that Yeah, but I still try to I still try to see if they're at least sharing information because I have no like I don't have to learn anything but as long as we're sharing information, but when it's kind of these Yeah, they're uh, they're just building credibility for themselves, right? Yeah, I mean it was it's it's trying to sell you can tell other they're seeding their proof because now I see all the stuff too Like oh, they're just seeding their program. They're not giving anything anyone can use Yeah, some of them there's some also webinars. They're giving a fantastic information So it's not everybody by by any means right but what I did the other day I just did a webinar and I said hey Um, I just sent an email out to my list I no one had to opt in and I just said I mean got some really good information I think you guys are gonna love I have absolutely nothing to sell I just told them I said this is and I said I have nothing Against selling from a webinar. I think that that's right place at the right time. That's a great opportunity Yeah, I'm just not doing it in this particular webinar, right? And so it was just pure content and I had people throughout just like wow, this is This is unique. Yeah, and uh, I think I've got her email somewhere I wish I should have thought about pulling it up I got an email from someone who I'd never been in contact with before and it was just a very heartfelt thank you like While you've kind of Renewed my faith in in the internet world. Yes from this and I'm sure I've done You know or we'll do some things that she's not so happy with but But that was it really goes to show that people they're really Wanting this they're they're needing this they're wanting this they're Desiring getting some honest information without having to give their email address or without having to buy something at the end and of course again You know, yeah, you should be thinking of building your list and doing some of these things. I'm not against that personally, but it's uh When it's just to kind of tease people to withhold and you don't give anything of real value until they buy that that to me is Yeah, genuinely. Yeah Yeah, absolutely. And you know what I want to I I agree with you wholeheartedly and I think it's worth emphasizing the point that taking the higher road Is a longer term project Yeah, and and see that's the thing about well What what's sustainable? Right. What's sustainable is typically more challenging to do. Yes more patience. Yes, you know the things that are That work very very quickly And we could talk about this right so like things that work very quickly are usually burning a bridge Or going against what our conscience is telling us to do and Um, and here's why here's why I believe it works quickly It's because human beings want to trust We want to trust each other and we tend to take things and face value I think more and more people are more skeptical of marketers Um, but even with the what the what the internet is so new I mean people are skeptical when I see a billboard, you know billboards have been around so long that we don't go Oh my god, the billboard says this that must mean that must mean it's not true. People don't trust ads They don't trust ads but people still unfortunately trust emails and they trust testimonials and things like that because it's still too new and so That's why it's working working to make sales is because People lie essentially through writing You know just like the different things you've already exposed false pretent etc They lie and then our marketers lie and then we buy it because we think that they must be telling the truth And that's what makes themselves faster when we start telling the truth now You know, then it takes people that the truth is almost always much more nuanced less hyped up And so here's the truth and the truth is very much more steady and calm and real like concrete And then you've got the hype which is in comparison much louder. Yes more exciting Yes, right and so therefore people these old promises Full promises and so people tend to buy the hype Yes, and the truth the hype of course goes away eventually the truth is still there And so for those of us who want to do business from a place of truth and love, I would say We need to be willing to stay For the long term and just stay around really to keep telling the truth and you know, it's not easy I'll tell you it is not easy But it's worthwhile and I'm I've been telling the truth now I would say for about at least two years I'm not I was lying before but I've been I've been earnestly Being as transparent and radical as I've since 2014 And only now honestly, tom am I seeing You know three years into it into my truth-telling experiment am I starting to see the results people are coming back and system Like, you know, I mean I get more loyal referrals now than I did ever before but it took me a while It took me a lot longer and before however We can for those of you who are able to tell the truth for a while and be okay with that This is really important and really Honorable and and and useful path Now let's talk about for those who need to Build up their business relatively quickly And I would say that you're you're really, you know, you're really smart at this and you've helped a lot of people do This kind of thing and build this more quickly And I don't know what which part of it you want to talk about you could talk about so much but earlier on you were Before we started recording you were talking about your Sort of something you're coming back to about referral marketing. I don't know if you want Going to another bit. Yeah. Well, so one thing and this is one of the areas that I am talking less about and and that's Creating online courses because I've been doing a lot of online course sales and and yeah Made a lot of money selling courses right and it's so cool when you Webinar and someone promotes you and you make three thousand bucks from making ten sales of a three hundred dollar course. That's not a huge Feet if you have started building a list if you have something that's proprietary that you can package Yes problem is that there's a lot of steps involved to getting there And so most people that are that are out there that I'm running into They're coming to me for help creating an online course or an info product and I'm trying to talk them out of doing that because They need four or five clients Right now. That's what they need and And so there's so for me. I think you know that the main thing is you know build that base that full practice first If you're a coach or you're a consultant you're a trainer Yeah, which I think most people listen are Make sure that's in place before Looking at some of these other strategies these tactics where it's starting to utilize technology because technology Can save you or Or sink you I mean it can really you can get overwhelmed in the technology but the one thing that doesn't require technology is Building up a business based on referrals Which are having conversations which gets us back to Being human right and connecting with people not hiding behind a computer right and Serving people through your private work one-on-one You don't need a lot of technology. You don't even need a website. You could have a profile on linkedin Yeah, and connect with people who could make potential referral partners and take someone out to coffee. So What this is and this is something I'm starting to do more and that's Sitting down with people who might who I might be able to help too because it has to come from really you should be Sitting down and saying hey, listen. I don't know what we can do But would you like to have a cup of coffee? Maybe we can see how we can help each other with our business or Whatever you're in. Yeah, and When it comes You know, you can just ask them, you know, what is it you need? Is there anything I can do? I can you know try to connect to some people that might be able to help you with something Is there something that you're you know, you're looking for in your business and just try to be helpful Yeah, maybe you don't have anything for them But you're just having a cup of coffee or it's a phone conversation. It doesn't have to be face-to-face And when it comes to to be your turn Be open and ask, you know say listen. Well, I build my business based on referrals and I am looking for Uh for people who are so this is what you have to have your marketing message down And so we're going back to marketing but you do have to be pretty clear. Yes talking to somebody You have to know what it is that you're looking for And so one example one area that I'm Moving into is helping construction companies because my dad was a contractor me struggled with marketing, right? So I'm looking here in the Atlanta area to help contractors construction companies with their marketing messages Yeah It was strategic planning. So if I'm sitting down talking to somebody it could be a vendor That serves the construction industry And I say well, listen, I'm starting to build a network of contractors I'm happy to put you to uh in touch with some of these people or maybe we can do a workshop Yeah, we invite some people in and I talk about marketing you talk about your your service that you know Yeah This is start thinking creatively about doing this and if you do this on a regular basis you get You can start building a good referral base and then of course any time you talk to a client When you're done with the conversation you should be asking them You know what was most valuable about our conversation today? And if you hear something really big like they had a really insightful Uh session with you Then don't now you're talking about client sessions, right about a client. Yeah, so this is going back So not I switched gears pretty quick there. Okay, so so for a part is now we're talking about after a client session And this is right because I I've been talking about this in my videos as well But I want to hear it from from your perspective. So after a client session So you and I had a client session george and and we're done and I say george So what was most valuable today? And I think it's good to ask that at the end of every call as often as you can think about it. Anyways, just so that they reflect Yes, and I think oh, you know what? What I got was this you don't leave with nothing It's a bunch of chit chat or a bunch of to do it's like that one thing Okay, well that also gives a little more purpose when you leave, but it gives you some insight on what you're doing well Excellent. So if there's a big insight See you probably wouldn't do this like your first couple calls with somebody you want to work with someone for a little While start getting some progress, but if they have a really big insight like that while that was really significant You could ask them at that point. Well, listen if this is something that you really value And again, you know, I build my business on referrals and I'm wondering if you know of anybody else Yeah, could we have could I take you out for a cup of coffee? It's on me. There's no, you know, no coaching agenda or anything here And nine out of ten times you'll get someone that'll they'll say yes Or could we have a phone conversation about this next week? Right quick. I'd like to see and you can ask them if they know people You know, I think some industries are really easy to to find And some industries are really really difficult. So if you work with Women who have gone through divorce, I mean yes, there are groups out there, but that's a pretty tough Women to find but Women who've gone through divorce might be supporting other women who have gone through yeah almost certainly Have a an in-law or somebody else or yes So if you let them know, hey, I am really looking for more clients if you don't tell them they're never going to think of it Yeah, so you've got to be make sure that you remind them and again You don't do this every time you have a conversation, but if you have that kind of aha or if you've ended Your work with somebody and it's you know, you've had a great Time working with them, but you've it's come to a completion You could say well, listen, I'm not obviously I'm going to have a coaching spot to fill Do you know could I take 15 minutes of your time and can we talk about Maybe some people that you could introduce me to If you're not asking for referrals either, you're just asking for introductions because it's someone to say You know, there's not really any pressure in saying right Oh, yeah, I can introduce you to a couple people and they just want to ask them some questions be a coach and coach them Like it would be a great fit and you know if they kind of Stumble a little bit you can get you know get very specific Yeah It's a little takes a little practice, but it can be very effective and it doesn't have to be pushy or or off putting it all What I like about what you're the way that you're doing it is that Because typically I would just send an email Right, and you know and an email's fine. That's fine But it's better than nothing what you're doing is you're you're creating a 15 minute focused time With your client or a previous client where it is about The referral process or the introduction process and so that they're they're really taking 15 minutes to think well here Oh, yes, that's right. Bob or sue. Yeah. Yeah, that's right I could refer you that that sue is going through the exact same thing that I'm going through Yeah, and so because sometimes your clients want to refer you, but they don't know how to and that's right Yeah, and so it's like during that conversation you could say so so tom you mentioned sue is going through the same thing you're going through so you know How how might you How might you recommend me to her or do you want to talk through a little bit about what's the right way of introducing me to her? Yeah, yeah, because you want to ask them. Well, why did why did sue come up? But what makes you think that sue's a good fit right and and so that might even bring up somebody else They could say well for sue doing this, but you know, I'm also working with so it's having the conversations a great way of doing it Yeah Being a coach and just asking them like asking open-ended questions not yes. No like ask open-ended questions You know like why do you think sue's a good fit? Well because sue does a bnc Oh, wow. You mean she belongs to this group. I wonder if they're looking for a speaker Yeah, you know anyone there that might be able to bring in a speaker because I'd love to go in and so it can also Other things that and that won't happen from an email But email is great But if you can get them on the phone or especially face to face it depending on the nature of your business that can work Well, I'm liking this because the email can be a follow-up tool Yeah, uh, you could even prepare them for the call too, but it could certainly be a follow-up tool Um, some people are gonna have be uncomfortable. Frankly. Yeah, right And so maybe if email is is the best thing that you can do right now that that's fine It's better than doing absolutely nothing so, um, let's talk about the reality of implementing something like this and I we were mentioning some of this before our recording started as well. It's like some people think you know My service is so good or they think well marketing should be easy. So I'm just gonna post a facebook posting Asking my my network for referrals and that's what I did. I did that last I did that three months ago And you know, I got a few clients maybe or maybe I did And that's it. Yeah, that's all they do or that's that's what they or I'm gonna post on linkedin Or I'm gonna send an email to 15 people and then that's what I did last time And I didn't get any clients or I got a few clients and now now what? Yeah, what is the reality of? Doing referral marketing effectively how much do we need to be doing? What's your opinion? Well, it depends on where someone is in their business. So if somebody has no clients There's no money coming in. Yeah, if they can do it They should be spending Then 40 to 60 hours a week should be spent marketing period Like it or not. I mean that that's Yeah, and see this is the thing these non magic bullets. Yes, they sound terrible It's actual work. It's like, you know, the reality is that you've got to work and anyone that's ever hit any real success And we know it's like some of these guys you see it seems like they're, you know These overnight success what's like the expression like the overnight success took 10 years to get there. That's right but it's There's no such thing as an overnight success and and if they are there's something shady Yes, man. Tom, I just have to say you and I have a combined Obviously 15 plus year Yes, marketing and business just in this. Yeah, and right and and you and I can both say You know, look look look everyone right in right in the eyes and say There is no overnight success and anyone who is promoting that is either not telling you their three five 10 20 year backstory Or you know, or they're they're using Hyped up means of getting the overnight success that will crash and burn Will eat away at their conscience for the next 10 years Yeah, or burn bridges and you know might kill their business. There's there's real quick There's a company here in jord used to be well, they're all over the country. They were bill bill heard Chevrolet, so I used to do automotive paint repair. Okay. It's my first business. I own from 1999 to 2005 Wow So I did on-site paint repair dealerships cardboards I had a really good business here But I was I had started having some health concerns related to the job. So I got out And I knew some of these guys that bill heard these sales guys and they were selling junk that they had cars that they were Lying about Damages and and all sorts of things. There were somehow they're like manipulating car facts and they were doing some really shady stuff And some of these sales guys they were really brazen Like they would admit to some of the vendors and some of us and I'm doing work on some of these cars I'm seeing stuff. I'm like, this is not what you guys are advertising, you know, wow and um Eventually it caught up to him. There was something else that bill heard I think it wound up being a tax issue But this guy had dealerships. He had a race car team. I mean he was no longer involved In his you know personally in his in the car business, but Incredibly wealthy it folded every single dealership they had Wow, I think it's just that one thing. It's just if they're doing this they're doing other things too, right? How you do one thing is how you do everything. So yeah it's um Just some shady stuff going on and and it's it's pretty rampant in the car business anyway It's harder to get away with now, but right um I went to go do work on a car one time and I saw it they were doing It's when they were selling cars on ebay back then right now and so I go out And it's uh, it's a black Lincoln And I went on to ebay and I actually I saw this car. I'm like, oh wow. Look at this car And uh, I'm like wait a minute. Isn't this car I'm supposed to go in and do work on Oh Perfect and I go in and it's just in terrible shape the bumpers are in awful shape and I asked the The ebay sales guy said what's up with the the picture? He's like, oh, I just photoshopped him because I know you're gonna do a good job Oh, man So before the work was done he photoshopped all the work that it would be impossible. I mean I'm working outside It's like there's You know, yeah, yeah, that's the kind of stuff. So you just have to and It's amazing But so these kind eventually this stuff catches up to you. It doesn't matter like well heard. They're out of business, right? They they employed thousands of people around the country Wow gone, you know, I mean they they find work somewhere else. I guess but yeah Yeah, no, it's just can't Yeah, and and I mean looking at my own business, right on the kind of stuff I was doing again, I was I was probably much better than most of my peers Or these less I wasn't I wasn't willing to do some of the stuff my peers are doing but I still was I was still doing things that were giving me more overnight success type of things and I couldn't like my conscience would not allow it anymore. So I feel like one way or another Um, whether it's people finding out Or you coming to terms with your own actions You you won't be able to do it anymore and you'll have you'll you'll end up, you know, kind of paying for it For for years to come or you know, it's you have to rebuild and so it's like why not just build from the beginning with with truth telling with well like we've been talking about relationships because I think that that's the That's the cost that I think a lot of people aren't willing to pay is to build relationships Uh, right to build relationships to have those referral conversations Oh, I hire George. I hired Tom. They're they're marketing whizzes. They can just Make my messaging perfect and we'll start it online and never have to talk to somebody. That's right. Yeah, it doesn't happen that way Yeah, so it'd be great. I mean you can hire help people to help out But you still have to I think it's your and especially if you're just starting out Right and and also always spend time for marketing. This is the thing too I learned this from a guy that I've done some training with and very straight up guy Andrew nightlake in Florida. He does executive coach training And he said his his definition of a full practice is three days a week And he said because one day should be creating content and the others should be marketing It's marketing could be it's like always he said you never forget marketing And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's you know on friday your marketing It could be every morning. You're doing marketing So meaning three days a week of client services. Yes Like like tuesday wednesday thursday client services monday then would be creating content friday would be Getting referrals or yes marketing. Yeah. Yeah, so and when he says content That's not necessarily a blog post. He really believes in creating proprietary information like coming up with your own frame More coming up your own really working on that proactively. Yeah, and then Teach other people to do what you do and start really building a business that that is a business Just your your personal time writing books. This guy has I don't know how many books He's but he said it's one of the superpowers. He can write a book and a good. I mean he has Good stuff. Yeah, it's he's very He cuts right to the point. I mean he knows how to how to do that That's right and and I believe that we we each have a superpower It comes to content creation some people are great at videos some people are great at writing or or can Can soon become good Or at it because of the background they've had it's like there's some methodology that we each can pursue and become good or great at Become our superpower and that's that's yeah Yeah, it could be that someone likes to talk or likes to be interviewed So it could you know if you don't like to write or you don't know how to get your ideas out Have a friend or a colleague interview you about what's right and then that oh, wow all these things will come out And then yes, so there's there's yeah get creative with it. Yeah, that's awesome Uh, well, there's a lot more we can talk about Um on a lot things like business models and things like that So we'll kind of uh, we'll we'll touch touching that in another conversation, but I just thank you for Thank you for taking the time to do this. It's no thanks I definitely think we should revisit this and I know today was this was kind of a Let's get all the stuff off of our head because you and I've been talking like oh, this is driving me nuts Yes, yeah, so it's it's a little event. This is I guess this is kind of a rant Um, but I think we can really provide some good strategies for people Because I don't want people to get discouraged thinking they'll never build their business You can that just do the right thing and if it feels bad Uh, one I'll I'll say this too like if someone's a coach or they have some life experience There's a book. I'm reading called uh the message of you By judy carter That's a great book. I've actually been through it. I'm reading it again But this is a she she Give some really good insights on how to take your personal story And get it out there and get paid to be a speaker. So for some it could be You know, what if you got paid? $2,000 $3,000 to do a speech and one of those a month. Yeah, and you know, it takes time There's working. Yes, but that could be something that you added to coaching and In speaking you can give as much as you as you want. You don't have to hold anything back. Right, you know, you don't Do a brain dump, but yeah But there's there's structure here and you can give people some really good insights That's one thing people could think about too is what if you were getting paid to speak that could be part of your income And so you're getting back and you're also getting uh compensated. So yeah, just things try to think creatively about That's a that's a good recommendation. I'll have to look that book up. So Just to close off the recording part of this, um You have any How how would you like people to contact you or reach out to you or find your find your stuff? They can go to tombufordmarketing.com Tombufordmarketing.com or email at tom at charge what you deserve.com. It's my main email And that's uh, that's the easiest way. So just yeah, simple right on right on This has all been like you interviewing me. I mean, I guess So I'd like to share this with my folks too. So and get this. Oh, yeah. Yeah, um my website georgecow.com Uh georgeco.com has all my my content. I put I I'm I've been in the rhythm of posting three to five new Videos on my facebook fan page Every every week actually and and then I send it out via my my email newsletter. So check that out And it's good stuff. Yeah, a lot of videos. Yeah, thanks. I'm gonna stop recording now. I'm looking forward to do another one with you Same here. All right. Thanks George