 We're continuing our partnership with the Einran Institute and joining me in studio this week or two of their leading Objectivist thinkers you're on Brooke and on Kargate. Welcome back to the Rubin report. Great to be here I mean, I'm living in Groundhog Day with you guys We're gonna have to get better right that's the that's the moral of the story Yeah, the only way to escape the Rubin report is to get you have to get it fully right Yes, you think we can do it right now. We'll try we'll find out all right So we're gonna discuss I think in this hour Really the meat of what I've been doing on this show for the last couple years and how it relates to Objectivism so we're gonna talk about tribalism and multiculturalism and the oppression Olympics and identity politics and all of those things Let's start with tribalism people hear the word tribalism. It scares them It should it should yeah, let's start there The I mean the idea of tribalism is it's like a really low form of collectivism So the basic idea of collectivism is that the group takes importance that it has paramount importance the individual If he counts at all, he's just a cog in the machine that's serving the group collect I mean Marxism was a classic example of collectivism the you have a dictatorship of the proletariat Every individual is going to be sacrificed if he doesn't help this cause he is of no significance the group is everything in this case a sort of political elite but that's a relatively sophisticated form of collectivism you have books and books and books written about Marxism and why it's right and so on so that's the meaning that at least it's based on ideas It may be the wrong ones, but it's at least an idea-based system. Okay, and it comes from a whole philosophy I mean for Marxism is a philosophy that comes in the 19th century So that's a sophisticated form because it's about ideas and tribalism is It's again the worship of the group, but now not even defined by any ideas Any kind of spiritual element to it It's by skin color or we happen to be born in the same country or in the same city And they talk about the city versus rural areas so it's divided into groups But they're defined now by physiological kinds of things either your own physiology or your kind of greater But physical environment and that's what's supposed to be so central to your identity And that's what you should identify with like I'm from Dayton, Ohio, or I'm Asian or something and it's like it's really really bad So the obvious important distinction you made there is that coming together as a group over a common set of ideas or or of a Set of ideas that you're arguing about or trying to refine that's actually positive But coming together as a or at least the experience of that, right? I saw you your eyebrow went up Yeah, because it depends on what it means to say you're coming together as a group, right? So collectivism means that the group just as Ankar said is is what's important the group is what's important The individual doesn't matter Individuals coming together to pursue a common goal. So that's like in a business. Yeah, or like a political party or like in a philosophical movement That is legit. There's nothing wrong with groups It's the elevation of the group above the individual and the idea that they individuals role is the sacrifice for the group That the individual is meaningless that his life is not important other than in how he serves the group That's what's evil. That's what's bad, and that's what tribalism You know tribalism reflects as Ankar said the most primitive form of that. Let's because we share skin color Let's all get together and any one of us is not important What's important is the preservation of the skin color or the or the preservation of the nation and and and the return of tribalism in America the land of Individualism the land of the individual of individual rates of the pursuit of happiness that is what's so Disturbing and so tragic and so I think upsetting to all of us Yeah, but do you see a distinction between coming together over skin color? Which I think is an easy one to debunk why that's wrong versus coming together because you live in a nation not not meaning that You have to agree on everything, but that nations exist first for a reason again. It depends on what you mean by coming together Yeah, yes coming together for nation can make sense, but it depends on the nation, right? So if the nation was not in Germany, is it okay to come together? No, I mean there I respect the the the people who opposed or ran away or fought it, right? But is it coming together to to protect a nation of individual rights a nation of liberty a nation of freedom like America? And even being willing to fight in a war to protect that. Yeah, that that makes sense because it's preserving legitimate pro-individual values and a pro-individual choice So it's it's why you're coming together so nationalism in and of itself the idea of coming together for the nation is In a value it depends on what the character of the nation actually is and this is the idea that so you're Asking about coming together for ideas and Iran's emphasizing it has to be Individuals coming together and to serve their own individual goals But then what ideas you're coming and coalescing around matters a lot and are they ideas that are trying to develop the individual? So you're talking about the founding fathers about the pursuit of each individual's happiness And if people are rallying around that idea and gathering together, that's very different than if you're rallying around an idea That's telling you in some way or another that you don't shouldn't really be thinking you should be following the authority And so and that's what communism or fascism do so it's around ideas But it's ideas that are really corrupt and ideas that are really pushing to the individual that you don't count You shouldn't think for yourself. Don't think your happiness counts So so it's and this is why it's a collapse the collectivism collapses from this more Sophisticated form to the tribal form because what the sophisticated forms are pushing is don't think Don't think for yourself and the collapse is okay Well, if my mind's not in control and so on what else isn't it must be my skin color or my environment or what happened to be born? So that's what's makes my now my identity because no longer my mind that makes my identity So to that point are you guys shocked that we're seeing such a resurgence of? collectivism based in immutable characteristics. I mean it is it is the Hot mainstream idea every every thing that we get out of mainstream media and out of our politicians these days is based in an idea of some this is racist or You know gay people this or that that different groups need different rights and all of these things And it's so the antithesis of what America was founded on Yeah, I mean I think it is shocking and it's and it's both on the left on the right which is important I think the identity politics are now rising and both of them And I think can you talk about it from the right for a second because obviously I spend a lot of time talking about the left version of that Yeah, I mean you're seeing it in the discussion of immigration and you're seeing it You know we've got to build a wall to keep those people out and it's very clear that it's those people whereas I You know both of us are immigrants so you to take you know But it's important the way immigrants because we came here out of a choice with an idea of what America represents and The hostility that is reflected today, and it's not just against illegal immigration It's about immigrants coming to this country when this country is and I think it's important that it's a characteristic of America is a land of immigrants You know this country established itself in the 19th century when millions and millions of people poor people from all over the world came here and Established themselves. So I think it's you sing it there. I think you're seeing it with an identity Politics that is a kind of a mirror reflection of the left whether it's around Whiteness I get a lot of stuff on social media about I hate white people because I'm poor immigration I hate white people because I'm portrayed Right, you know, but it's all about whiteness. Well, I'm pretty, you know, so so I think on the right You're getting that this kind of you know, okay, you want to do identity politics We know how to do identity politics and I think you're seeing it You're seeing it on the fringes But I think there's a certain mainstreaming of these attitudes that I find scary in and I happen to think that Trump Reinforces these I think he reinforced it a Charlottesville and I think he's reinforced it He reinforces as he plays into it whether he believes it or not. It's not that relevant He he plays it politically because it serves his purposes So I think we're seeing it on all sides and I find that discussion and immigration particularly disgusting and offensive and and Troubling in terms of in terms of just a language that people use and the way They talk about these people coming here as if as if they're not individuals They're not, you know, they're not here to try to make their lives better They're not coming here to become American citizens or what that means know that the some kind of scum Who's trying here to steal to take our stuff? And you could argue about immigration. I don't think it's an easy issue, but but the attitude is scary Yeah, and it's the juxtaposition of two things and you see this Unfortunately, you see this more and more on the right I think I think you see it with the kind of populism you see it with the Tucker Carlson kind of view that it's it's the focus on rural America and that and it's often put as the white Conservatives who have been left behind now there are a lot of things I think that there's a lot of real gripes that these people should have but it's not a gripe that Okay, manufacturing jobs have been disappearing and what you could do is move to Seattle or to Austin or to North Carolina And not just sit in your the place where you happen to be born and complain Well, it's not like it was 50 years ago or 75 years ago You there's stuff you can do and what we should be encouraging those people is Look, you can seize control of your life. You can make something out of it. You have choices here It's not as bad the whole of America is not like what you're experiencing here Yeah, maybe the steel factory is closed or whatever you have all kinds of opportunities and there's too much encouragement of It's I mean what you saw unfortunately with Carson was a demonizing of the rich people and And things like he I mean this was in his the long monologue at the start of the year about Rich people like Romney they are concerned with people helping people in Congo with malaria but they don't want to help these people in American rural town, but the help was handouts and giveaways not Let's make sure they're free to move and so and you know his prescription Yeah, so the whole perspective was someone has to do something for these people and you have that perspective of rural or white Americans and then you've got someone from Guatemala who will go who walks for Miles and miles and miles because they hear there's work in America and they want to live a better life and for and The responses were going to put up a wall to put it's that so when you got that juxtaposition This is it's tribal. Yeah, well if this fully explains why having the immigration discussion Which isn't the thrust of what we're going to do here is so difficult because you basically have people saying You know walls are immoral or you are racist or whatever and we can't get into any of the nuance of There are individuals like a guy walking all the way from Guatemala who wants to make a better life for himself And who's gonna bust his ass when sees here versus there may be people that are trying to bring in drugs And we obviously don't want those people here. Yeah, so there's security issues You have to deal with those it but but the whole notion the whole notion that There's such a thing as American jobs You know the one of American jobs 50 years ago people had jobs and they were competitive and they had to be good at the job Otherwise they'd lost a job and if they lost a job It was on them to go find another job and so maybe moved to another town I mean America used to be this mobile place where we move constantly in pursuit of our values in pursuit of our habits How many times have you moved? I've moved like 10 15 times. Yeah cross countries across I mean it the idea that it's Everything should be handed out. I mean the way those I ran put this is there's this kind of idea of a divine right of stagnation That I should be able to exist a hundred years ago Is what my granddaddy did and then my daddy and it should just go on and someone's got to provide this with me and You should have a whole mentality of growth progress ambition want to change want to get better and This is when you say it's a nation of immigrants This is why it's a nation of immigrants because they think of it as a place of that's where I can finally be free to do that Mm-hmm and to not look at the individuals involved and think this is what so many of them are about Is you have a tribal purpose? You have a collective you're not seen individuals at all and you're not even looking at people in terms of their Ideas it's there in Guatemala I don't want them but if they're in some and then you might if you had met those two people you might think well This guy's way better than this guy, but they don't you don't even go there Well, it's interesting to me that people think that if you Have to move have to take responsibility for your life That somehow that is the fault of the system when I take the often unpopular position of not forcing the baker to bake the cake for The gay wedding because I don't want the government having that so much power over over a private entity One of the my arguments is well you are allowed to move and it and it kind of feels sucky It doesn't feel right but you can go take your talents and skills and worth and family and Values and bring it to a place that it might be more rewarded and that's that's a better version of freedom than having the government come in and Force this guy to do something this has to do with the whole notion of You know, we don't expect people to take full responsibility over their lives To think for themselves to act for themselves and to pursue their own values in it you know in in a long-term kind of way so that in You know a hundred years ago again, and I don't want to be overly romanticized the past but a hundred years ago You know in front of America lost a job. There are lots of ghost towns or lost of People moved blacks moved in mass from the south to the north because that's where the jobs were right and And the would you crow laws in the south so so is unfriendly in the south So they didn't just sit around us and and moan and complain even though I think they had a right to do so because these are laws that were Oppressing them they got up and they moved and and the the whole idea of immigration in the 19th century Jews Irishmen Italians who were suffering in their homelands got up never see their family again Never see the place. They were born again and went away. There were opportunities That is what made America a great country that mentality of I'm gonna take my life seriously I'm gonna go pursue the best that I can pursue I'm gonna find the jobs and gonna find the things that I love and I'm gonna go to where it's free to do So and and somebody like Tucker Carlson represents Conservatives the right supposedly right Always gave that lip service that you know the personal responsibility side to go pursue your value site But now when the rubber hits the road they say no no these people should be taking care of we need steel jobs in America Why do we need still jobs in America? I mean, why do we need auto jobs in America? Why do American cars need to be produced in America? What value is that really about? So, you know, don't don't we want the best cars that we can get for the money Don't we want the best jobs we can get don't we want the best people we can get So the whole idea of American Cars American jobs American steel is a form of collective So what would you say then to the person that lost that job? That's in these depressed towns that are in the middle of the country that maybe understands the ideas you're talking about But it's going there's nothing left here. So I say get in a car drive to north-west Arkansas Be into north-west Arkansas. It's booming. There are plenty of jobs there and get a job and And and while and if you're right now in an industry that you suspect The job is going to die and by the way, almost all these jobs die not because of China Oh, not because of immigrants. They died because of robots and computers and they die over a period of time And and robots and computers are going to get smarter and they're going to get better And they're going to take more jobs in that sense. So start thinking about that again Take your life seriously So start thinking is my job susceptible to being taken over by a robot if it is Think about what other job you might want to do what other career you might want to have it start going to Night-school and train yourself don't sit around waiting for that government or for some other entity to bail you out to save you To put up tariffs to put up other forms of walls in order to save your little job because that's Going back to the divine right of stagnation that only leads to stagnation at least stagnation for all of us because it Does away with the real engine of economic growth is which is progress which is innovation which is Creative destruction this idea of constantly change a constant change and constant Improvement and and you know constant changes in our careers and our jobs. That's that's just a reality I think you're basically telling people to figure out how to repair robots The main takeaway is like that's gonna be a pretty good job. It will be a great job and you asked the question are we are worried of us surprised by the growing tribalism and particularly, I mean how primitive it is about skin color and things like that and I've been surprised how prevalent it is But you could see this coming I think so and it's important that you could see and I ran saw this come She wrote a lot in the 60s about this is where we're headed to tribalism because We had the really sophisticated forms of collectivism that caused incredible death and destruction Communism fascism and then tribalism. There's a middle thing. I think and that's multiculturalism and a good way to think about multiculturalism is Injects to position to the melting pot. So the idea of the melting pot in America was you can it will take anybody from anywhere and Will keep what's good if you can show us you've got something good Whether it's a good cuisine Good ideas a good way of a new way of doing business and so on your very entrepreneurs will take all that And this was truly a unique idea that the United States is not imposed that the United States offered But it's simultaneous. So we'll take that and we want you to discard all your garbage So if you've got ideas about the woman's place should be in the home So that all is not welcome here. We want what's good about you And you would have an opportunity now to discard all these shackles not just political shackles But all kinds of cultural shackles that kept people, you know can't be educated So and or you're just kind of a peasant you can't aspire to any more intellectual job All kinds of things if you come, I mean, I'm half Indian half German I am my parents immigrated and they left behind a lot of bad ideas There's a lot of bad ideas in both cultures. So and so this is it's still the level of ideas It's we'll keep what's good and we're gonna discard. What's evil and what multiculturalism did so there and there was sort of Fig leaf for it that it's true that other cultures Americans aren't too good at even knowing about I from Canada And people know that they think there's polar bears every morning. So yeah, so that in terms of education that okay You should learn more about other cultures, but what multiculturalism it sort of that's the fig leaf And the real meaning of it was all cultures are equal don't judge Cultures and what that really means is don't dare think America is better than any other culture or more broadly Don't think Western Enlightenment culture is any better than others don't think that any set of ideas is better Yes, and then so what do you need ideas for what's about and so that's you can see a movement from a Collectivism that's about ideas with communism fashion and so to multiculturalism that now is starting to attack the whole idea No ideas are better than that and then it it's it's it's a package deal of ethnicity So ethnicity is sort of your ideas from the culture that you're in and the fact that you wear Particularly a kind of dress and Indians wear saris. This is all your identity. So now your identities partly ideas and partly all these Unchosen things and they but and that's a movement and then it's discards the ideas completely and it's all about your whole identity It's just everything unchosen so the best example of this I think would be that every commercial now when they show you all the different types of people and they always show a Woman in a hijab and these are the same people who will say that they're for women's liberation Yes, but then they'll use a symbol that has nothing to do with women's liberation to say the least Yeah, as as a way of identifying this type of person So it's sort of is it eventually sort of collapses on itself and notice notice what happens It's that to evaluate that the hijab is this is it's it is an instrument of keeping women down It's about ideas and really bad ideas. It should be discarded. That's racist But you're dealing now, but you're dealing with something that's chosen idea But it's that package deal that it's exactly the same as because you've got not a white skin color You're a little browner. It's that's as though if you said well, that's you're no good for that or you're no good This idea is no good. You can't make that distinct But it's this is all my identity and this is all about my culture and you're criticizing this and that's the descent into So then how do you have this conversation when you know that a certain amount of people if you say well? I'm not for multiculturalism The the initial reaction the gut reaction they have is that somehow you must Harbor racist views because we should be for all the different colors of the rainbow Yeah, I mean it's why how you communicate is important because people are gonna respond that way You don't want them to shut down. You want them to be able to respond to your ideas It's why I think the way on kind of used it They're values that some values and positive values in different cultures, but there is a set of ideas out there Call it the enlightenment ideas that the ideas that were developed in the west that have the origins Maybe in Greece that they developed but developed in Western Europe and in America There's a set of ideas that is that allows for human beings to flourish that allows for individual human beings to be Successful that allows for the best in whatever culture you are to rise up and and Discards explicitly discards all the garbage that's out there and that that set of ideas is Superior and it's superior for everybody in the world and anybody in the world no matter what skin color they have no matter what ethnicity No matter what Origin they're from when they adopt a set of ideas They thrive and you can see it You can see when enlightened ideas adopted a little bit in Asia when they adopted a little bit in Africa when adopted a little bit In the Middle East those people thrive so it has nothing to do with the genes so you have to work extra hard and Communicating to get away from the identity politics get away from race by showing that it is ideas Elevating the discussion away from the tribe to the level of ideas and this is this is why you know part of why it's It was in the cards in the sense in the 60s is that We diminished the importance of ideas generally we diminished the importance of thinking we diminished the importance of reason And we diminished the importance of free will so if you take away free will from people if they don't have a choice Then what are we we're just a product of our genes and our genes Happen to be white genes yeah, right and somebody who's got dark skin has slightly different genes than me So maybe his ideas are different. Maybe what's true famous dip? It's truly Different than what's true for me because with different human beings But so reintroducing free will into the debate. That's where I want to go with this reintroducing choice into the debate reintroducing ideas Philosophy into the debate and showing how philosophy and ideas and will is what shapes the world That's how you get around these issues Elevating the debate to the level of a philosophy all right So I want to give you a chance to jump on the free will part of this because when we did our one-on-one That's really the the meat of it right there So how is your ability to choose the key to this? I think this is so I think the enlightenment period was the greatest period in in the Western history It builds on the achievements in Greece in Rome But it it brings new ideas and a new perspective on the individual and part of it It really for the first time sees an individual as an individual and that's it has a kind of view it's it's not completely worked out and There's some kind of vulnerabilities that make in the 19th century you get anti-enlightenment intellectual forces But in the enlightenment period 17th and 18th century you get a view that the individuals in control of his mind He can think for himself and it's not he's not a product in terms of think about his mind His body might be in certain ways a product as an environment of his genes But his mind he can take control one of the metaphors in objectivism is you can seize the reins of your mind like the horses Galloping and take control and direct where it's going and to to direct it towards Trying to learn the truth and trying to learn what is good and so the enlightenment period has a view that Everybody can be educated. It's the first time you really get the idea that no matter You're born a peasant. You're born in poverty You've never your parents have never and their grandparents and grandparents have never learned to read you can learn to read You and but it's because you can exert this effort and so and so there was this idea that the individual can learn He can think for himself. He can produce that and who knows what? Kind of lowly individual is able to do and part of what the 19th century is it's you get all these people Who in past centuries would have been relegated to the farms and to slaves and and servants and so on all was unfree Mm-hmm, and they are capable of all kinds of things that were undreamt of and of course that freedom is a direct product of that Right, so if every individual has this capacity to reason to think to to take the reins of his mind to learn Then then they can make choices for themselves. They don't need a king a council the collective the group to make choices They can marry who they want they can make a choice there. They can go into whatever profession they want They can start a business and they can choose their leaders, right? They you know and so political freedom is not an accident political freedom is a consequence of an attitude towards free will It's a consequence of an attitude towards human reason if we can choose if every one of us can choose if every one of us has their capacity What do we need Kings? What do we need? Authorities to tell us what to how to behave and how to how to live and what professions to engage in and who to marry? I mean people forget The idea of choosing your romantic partner is a modern for now. It's pretty new So okay, we've mentioned logic and reason and free will and all these things and you mentioned the Enlightenment And I've got plenty of books here written about the Enlightenment so did any of these ideas have Any of the ideas about the individual did they all suddenly spring up right then where was there anything going on before that? Allow these ideas to flourish. I think it's hard for people to imagine what it would have been like before that then They certainly they have precursors and I think particular one when one's thinking about the Enlightenment the precursors are ancient Greece and that's the birth of science and modern science builds on The ancients in terms of and they're the ones who first discover that we're able to reason but it's still too much of it's the sphere of the aristocrat the person who doesn't have to work so he can sort of contemplate the universe and But there's this view that you can discover knowledge and the human mind is capable of it and particularly what you get that Modern science builds on is the idea of a method So the reason that any individual from the Enlightenment perspective can learn and can develop and can grow and endlessly From the beginning of your life to the end is because there's a method that you can use so the scientific method But that method is first being defined in ancient Greece What I think modern science really does is the sort of there's a method of logic and of proper reasoning versus Ways of going wrong and fallacies and so that's all defined in ancient Greece what you get in the modern period is to unite uniting of logic and mathematics and so you get mathematical science which is Radically new and I mean what Newton's doing is not doesn't exist in the ancient world But it's it's this perspective that we have a method that we can define that anybody can use And so if you think of religion of they won't even put translate the Bible into the vernacular Because how are these boy polo you can understand this and the Enlightenment perspective is no anybody can understand science And this is the sense of all these truths are universal Anybody can understand that this is true and this is good and then what you saw in an Enlightenment period is a proliferation of Salons it's a where it was the people who first learned the new science They're doing like in like a Starbucks you can think of it They're doing scientific experiments that they're teaching the people coming in like this is what was been discovered These are the new things and the idea that anyone can do this is and you can it's not automatic Like you don't just show someone a science experiment They grasp everything but if you put the effort in and if you choose to put the effort in anybody can do this So the idea of progress is a modern idea. Yeah, and it's and it's really really important So speaking of a modern idea that are you enthused that it seems like perhaps We're actually entering an interesting phase where people do care about ideas again I think they're for as crazy as it may seem right now that there is a flourishing of ideas Look at the podcast look at every all the conversations going on on YouTube traveling all over the world a Desire for people to think about their lives. I think there is I think there's realization out there in the world that There's a dead end coming if we don't if we don't rethink some of our assumptions and I think that there's some of the voices out there that are Completely disgusted by the way the left is gone or the way the right is gone that want to elevate the discussion They're getting a platform. They're getting a voice I think you've played a huge role in providing that voice and in making all this possible But there is this as in a sense a kind of counter-revolution to the to the to the identity politics and the tribalism the question of course is is it enough and and To what extent that is resonate with with large numbers of people because at the end of the day, you know large numbers of people make a difference and and and how influential this goes and I think part of part of what we're struggling with is Yes, there's a recognition that that idea is important now The next step is which idea and and how deep do those ideas go? For example, I think there's a there's a real sense of distress that we feel that a lot of people writing about the enlightenment Right enlightenment now by Stephen Pinker is an example, right? I mean which is a wonderful book and I recommend it but Stephen Pinker doesn't believe in free will Sam Harris doesn't believe in free will and Jordan Peterson has a kind of a kind of an interpretation of free will but That free will is so important the idea of reason is so important the idea of which ideas are so important that yet It's great the well of any two ideas We also need to recognize what is really going to change the world And I think if we say to people you don't have free will but you are important ideas We're sending a very confusing message that I don't think will resonate Okay, so for someone that's watching this that might be a little confused about these ideas and is hearing or learning in college right now Why intersectionality is good, right? And and we mentioned the oppression Olympus before can you explain why this competing set of Oppressions or I don't even think they're real oppressions. I think they're perceived oppressions why this is actually something that can't hold Well, it's the whole perspective is that the if you don't have a value That's what entitles you to consideration That other people have to give money time sacrifice in some kind of way for you But what it elevates is the the person who? It can't be bothered to move So now we have to somehow pay that they can stay alive or it can't be bothered to Educate themselves so now we are in charge of their education. They won't look after their health So we have to do it. They can't save for retirement So we have to do and the more they won't do those things the more we have to give them Yes, that that's the old so and what you're taking then Everyone who achieves a value and it's way bit wider than money if they've achieved knowledge if they've achieved Any kind of success if they've achieved happiness they owe it to the people who haven't you're destroying these people And you're leaving the everything is geared to these people if you gear a system to the people who can't think Well, I mean that is won't think won't work won't struggle What you're inviting is complete disruption if that's your whole systems geared to that Yeah, and this is what is the the American revolution is we're creating a system That's geared to the person who's not at all like that. We're geared to the ambitious person It's not you have to have money or whatever But you have to be willing to work and choose and and think and if you're doing that Here's a system in which you can thrive and it there's two really competing visions of who you're designing the system for right And in a sense intersectionality is inevitable once you accept a moral code in which those who have Ability or have education or have money. Oh Morally, that's a moral duty to sacrifice for those who don't because then those who don't are now going to compete for these Resources and they can compete based on what standard by how miserable they are and the more miserable they can prove to the world They are the more deserving they become the more so it's it's a it's a whole moral code Based on need Whereas the founding of this country was a it was a political system created to make Possible the achievement of virtue the achievement of success It was it was if you're not if you're not gonna work hard if you're not gonna strive You know you can go back to Europe in a sense It was an assumption and indeed a lot of people did go back to Europe a lot of the immigrants Okay, because they couldn't make it but the idea is this is a system geared towards the rational the productive the ambitious The honest that the person who wants to take responsibility for the life and achieve something and We've turned that completely upside down and now we're giving the political system And this is why the welfare state is so destructive because it creates this mentality This is why I think the new deal was the beginning of this politically because it creates this mentality of oh your need Well, it's our duty now to help you and now but he's more in need You know, how do what do we do now? Well, and of course the need expands and it ever grows and there's always more people in need And and you can get to a point where where Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said the other day a Society that creates billionaires or allows billionaires to come into existence as an immoral society and and You know, it's it's exact opposite a society that allows people free So that some people You know because of their talents and skill and hard work and ability to create value become billionaires That's a great exciting society. She also thinks we have 12 years left on earth. Thanks to climate change. So we'll talk I want to add just one point because I think this distinction is really important The issue is not that what about the few people who literally can't take care of themselves They might have some Alzheimer's or something like that. There are people like that. They're relatively small number It's not the issue is who cares is not who cares about these people. Yeah people who've making something of their lives You'll take care of a relative who has Alzheimer's. The what do you do for the for the true outlier cases? I don't want to spend too much time talking about but I think that would be one of the criticisms people would say Well, you're just going because there are there are people that have mental health problems. They're whatever it is What do you what does a functioning society do about them though? Those really I think Society at the sort of individual level if it's your parents or whatever you That's the ideal version and then the wider version is you don't these people It's unfortunate what's happened to them There would be charity for these kinds of people that this is this is why the distinction is so important If you see for no fault of some of his own He's in a really tough situation either permanently like Alzheimer's or just he's lost his job And he's having trouble he's trying to find another job having trouble So you help him out for six months or so there would be all kinds of organizations would do that And you're looking at there as human beings with real lives and and potential Versus the people who don't want to take care of themselves and choose not to and this is the impression Olympics is not all of a sudden we've got all these Alzheimer's people It's all of a sudden we've got all these people who oh, okay So if I say that I'm in need That gives me a claim to everything so I don't have to exert right effort And it's the systems being geared to those people and what you saw in the 19th century Into the 20th with the progressive and this was deliberate was that Where you cannot talk about the deserving and undeserving poor and that's how it used to be conceptualized There's poor people. Yeah, it's there there don't deserve their fate and we're gonna help them out And there's poor people who drink their lives away and so on and that what they have to learn is that choice is wrong And you don't learn that by bailing them out and so so there was the deserving poor deserving of charity and undeserving and The progressive said this is a moral abomination to make that distinction There's just the poor and so now it's you feel like oh so if you say you're not gonna help the poor You're not gonna help this guy with Alzheimer's are met No, but you have to distinguish those two and there there's all kinds of Push that you can't make that decision. It's really hard though to deprogram people from believing that victimhood is virtue No, right. I mean people have been so Infected with this that just a quick antidote Antidote example is when I was at University of New Hampshire and I'd there would be all these kids are screaming at me and One girl screams something to the fact of I could walk out of here and be shot and I thought this is actually crazy You're in New Hampshire You're at the University of New Hampshire. You keep telling me how oppressed you are Even though you're at a wonderful school in a very safe area and all that but but she needed this idea that it's possible She could walk outside and be shot I don't know why she thought she might be shot whether it was her skin color or or whatever it was But it was I could see how pervasive it was the need for Something horrible could just come around the corner and it did you see that in in Alexandria Cortez with the 12 years, right? We you know, so we take ideas out of it. It's the same concept fear is an amazing Motivator when you're taking ideas out of the equation when people are not thinking you're trying to manipulate people's emotions scare them And and you're seeing this on the right with immigration It's a it's about elevating fear and then you know driving people to act based on that fear So so yes people are fearful irrationally fearful They don't think about the facts. They don't think about having New Hampshire. Who's gonna really shoot me here You am I really oppressed and then you also deny them the ability to take control of their life because you deny them You tell them they don't have free will you tell them they don't have control of their life You tell them they are products of their other skin color of their genes or whatever it happens to be So I mean if I had if I knew I had no free will I'd be afraid You know, I don't know what that even means Because I can't even contemplate not thinking I'd have free will but but I'd be afraid because how do I know what's gonna happen next? I have no control over my life. That is a recipe for fear and what you're seeing among these young people What you what is so sad about it about these kids in New Hampshire? It's how afraid they are when I look at the environmentalists and you know the world's and I see these young kids Who really believe this who were bought into this doom and gloom? I Think what a what a waste right how sad is it that people are growing up in the environment where they think the actions that they're taking Are gonna destroy the planet they're gonna destroy their lives and that they can't think themselves out of this So it's challenging, but it goes back to what they need to be taught They need to talk they do have control over their life They need to be taught that they can't think they need to be taught the facts that we need to elevate that discussion back To the area of ideas and free will and control and choices This is why I think objectivism is so important for the sort of the the error we're in or the cultural point Because I think of it as it's the philosophy that the Enlightenment deserved, but didn't get And that it's the objective of the Imran's Theory is it's pro-reason. It's pro-science. It's pro-technology. It's pro the individual It's pro capitalism and it views the 19th century as this was the pinnacle of Freeing man in the in the broadest sense and you see such tremendous tremendous Achievement in the 19th century. It's an end of war of World War. You only get that back into the 20th century And I think the most unusual of all it's pro the pursuit of happiness So you were asking like how do you get people out of this that they view everything is about need? And so you have to articulate a positive vision and not only it's important not only about reason and science and technology But a moral vision that what you should be striving for and what we should when we look at people What how we should distinguish between good and evil is who is pursuing their own happiness? And who is not and to resurrect that moral idea and to give it a real Underpinning in philosophy. That's what she was about and she I think she thought of herself as I'm bringing a new moral perspective That has never really fully existed and this is what we need and so you need the positive and she has a positive There's no way to undercut intersectionality And I think this is part of the problem with a lot of the discussion going on today While accepting them all code that made intersectionality possible in the first place So it's hard so I see a lot of intellectuals who are what meaning who see the evil in Intersectionality but can't really fight it because they're advocating for another form of altruism another form of the sacrifice of the individual To some other group unless you have a real new conception of morality an alternative conception of morality Which Rand provides of of the individual pursuing their own values pursuing their own life pursuing their own happiness That is the only alternative to the dead end that is you know tribalism and intersectionality So oddly is there a bit of a branding? Issue here. I mean it has capitalism Let's say which is the greatest system for the ideas you're talking about Has its freedom sort of been used against it? So it's not even it's not even selling itself the right way So in other words, there's more goodness happening in the world now than ever before there's a you know What is it human progress org they release studies every day? There's more green on the earth than ever before there's less poverty than ever before there's less infanticide than ever before a zillion other things But we don't focus on any of those things almost as a function of our success or something like that Well as a function of our morality, right? We're looking for the next suffering group We're looking for the those in need and the success of these people these individuals is Irrelevant as long as there's somebody in need and there's always going to be somebody in need relative to Let's say those success and in that sense capitalism has never had the proper moral defense and so capitalism is always Being undermined undermining itself because it tried to establish itself on on this foundation of Altruism and sacrifice and it I managed the first thinker certainly in modern times to question the moral underpinning of our lives and To to discover a moral underpinning that is consistent with capitalism, which is the idea for the pursuit of self-interest So it's a branding problem, but it's an intellectual brandy an issue that it's What's capitalism about? Well, it's the pursuit of profit and money so that's selfish and As long as that selfish means Everybody knows that that's immoral then it's at best what you think well, okay? Maybe capitalism is a necessary evil, but hopefully we can transcend it in some point and Whether it's a mixed economy whether it's I mean this is the Marxist plate on this that oh, yeah Of course capitalism produces more than feudalism, but we're gonna have some magical system where no one has to work But we're gonna have abundance and it's we first We need a dictatorship in order to get that and then it's gonna wither away But if the whole framework of that is okay, yeah, but capitalism's evil So why don't we try something else and maybe it will work who knows if that whole atmosphere? Exists you're never gonna have a real defense of capital because a defense has to be this is moral And what you saw in the 19th century this is it's so why it's just it's branding But like branding on stills. Yeah, it's you the the 19th century is progress on Every measure of human life. It's exploding Populations so the world population from when you go from 1800 to 99 Way way higher quality of life that not everyone's now working in farms You're starting to have leisure time people going on vacations and so We can't weekends you have access to art that you didn't have before Then if you're talking about technology of you get electricity Telegraph anything you look at it's tremendous tremendous tremendous Unprecedented progress. What do people think about the 19th century? It's robber barons and there were child the children in factories and so their view is that it's a complete negative And that's the educational system, but deliberately has obscured the history of capitalism So it's it's yeah, it doesn't have good branding But nobody knows anything about it and it's been demonized on every level and because it's the the essence is it's selfish So how do we fix that beyond this? Well, the only way to fix it is education education education speaking up is educated people about the history Educating about people about what capitalism actually means. I mean so many people don't have said it Capitalism really is the system of freedom. It's a system that leaves individual free to pursue their own values It's a system of protecting their rights. They write to protecting them from coercion So capitalism and freedom are really the same thing politically and from a social construct and they don't understand Where profits come from they don't understand why profit is is moral why profits is virtuous But Underpinning all this is you have to have this moral revolution. You have to have a change in the way people think about What a good life means what being a good human being means what what what thriving as a human being means and There's no shortcuts, right? You can't again if you believe in free will yeah, then you've got to convince people You've got to you've got to discuss it You've got to present the ideas you've got to educate them and you've got to engage in the in the battle of ideas that is ongoing Is there any system for all the shortcomings that we might have as a moral foundation of what we've sold as capitalism in the United States? Is there any system that's doing it better right now? In terms of the United States today Well in terms of in terms of capitalism and freedom and the basic ideas of the individual and everything else we've talked about here Is there any system that you know of that's doing it any better than the United States right now? No And it's important to get the essence of capitalism is the recognition of an individual's rights So it's a system that takes seriously the declaration of independence and each individual has a right to life Liberty property would have been in there if not for slavery, which I want to come to because it's a huge issue And the pursuit of happiness And to the extent that things have gotten better since the declaration of independence and things On all kinds of scales as we've been talking about have gotten better. It's because rights have been taken seriously So that on the issue of slavery that look slavery and the declaration of independence are incompatible It's a huge black mark that the america allowed slavery If we're taking the declaration seriously, we have to abolish this a person has a right to life It has a right to liberty doesn't matter his skin color And this is part of the whole argument that the abolitionists were making and like a frederick douglas is If you take the declaration of independence seriously, you have to abolish slavery Which is true or if you're thinking about the women's vote It is It's an individual has a right to life and a right to liberty and to think for themself and then have political choose Their political represent. It's not about a male or So it's a recognition of rights and to the extent they're recognized you get progress And what happened in particular in regard to capitalism and why it's sort of we've had some progress and gone backwards in all kinds of ways What was the right that was particularly attacked was the right to property And if you think of the socialist the communists marks, it's what we're doing is abolishing private property everything is going to become public and Property rights are a crucial crucial right indeed in the end. You can't have any other right I can't have a right to think if someone can come into my environment blast a stereo at the 110 decibels and I can't think anymore I have to have control over the thing my life Which means the property that I've earned in order to pursue all my other values. And so you're you're you're Destroying a condition of all rights when you attack property rights, but they're nevertheless still is a different that economically We've never achieved the growth that the 19th century has achieved in the 20th century We've still grown economically, but because there's been all kinds of controls then put on people's ability to trade We don't have free trade anymore all kinds of restrictions on property Things economically are way worse than they could have been if the right to property were recognized But some other rights have been recognized and we've gotten better in regard to that. We're way better in regard to The whole issue of color and skin color politically at a political but we're now getting intellectual currents They're reviving this and if that happens it's we're going to get politically really really bad Right and I can sense that happening I mean even right now the the small crew of democrats who are saying that they're going to run for president Everyone is talking about tax tax tax tax tax. So it's not just Cortez. I mean Elizabeth Warren in the last couple weeks Now we're going to figure out a new wealth tax and etc No, they're all I mean this is the agenda the left has moved further to the left They see an opportunity there. It's appealing. It's it's What I like about what I like about Cortez what I like about Cortez is She speaks a moral language. She boils it down to what's really going on, right? The others might couch it as I mean Elizabeth Warren comes out and says I'm really for capitalism. I want to save capitalism and I want a wealth tax and want to save capitalism Cortez doesn't doesn't play that game Right you admire her But she goes to the moral roots. I mean one of the things she said She says for example, they say well, how you how are you gonna afford Medicare for for all and she says look It's right. This is just if it's just we'll figure out a way to pay for it, right? And you go, yeah, I mean she's right If it really is just then we'll figure out and if we have to sacrifice a bunch of billionaires In order to put them on, you know, burn them at the stake or whatever We'll we'll get we'll do what is right if that's the case, but it's not just a bunch of billionaires I know you were being diseases, but we know we know it's a lot more than that We know it's a lot more than that We know the economic consequences of what she's pretty what she's advocating for But she is saying I'm willing to take all those consequences those consequences are not what's important in life What's important in life is to be good. What's important in life is to be just what's important in life is to be moral And that's where the rubber hits the road. That's what needs to be challenged That's what the right cannot challenge because they bought into that morality And that's why the only thing that a tucker calls on any of these commentators can do is say, how are you going to pay for it? Well How are you going to pay for anything? Right? So it's not about how you pay for it. It's about is it right? It's not right to have Medicare for all. It's not right to to have a wealth tax It's immoral to have a wealth tax is immoral to use force to take somebody's property property rights Are just as sacred as free speech. They're just as sacred as any other right in this country And unless we're willing to fight for for these rights For the for the for the absolutism of these rights Then forget it. There was a case when obama care was was being passed that You know really hit home on this rate So so obama care is about to be passed in the head of the renational committee writes an op ad in the worst you Journal about how he's against obama care. It's socialized medicine. It's terrible It's going to destroy medicine in america And what we really need to focus on is protecting medicare and medicare is our must and we need to beef up medicare Make sure medicare is of course it next morning. He's on npr and the guy in npr says See you want to protect medicare? I said absolutely. We're promitik and he says but medicare socialized medicine for people over 65 Why socialized medicine okay for people over 65 and not okay for people under 65? And the guy had no answer So either you defend property rights either you stand on principle either you defend capitalism free markets Or you're gonna lose and that's what the right hasn't learned from its history over the last 100 years To the extent that they even believe in capitalism many don't anymore to the extent that they believe in free market They if they can't defend it morally They will lose every single time so then what do you do about? Sort of what would be like a needed Intermediary step if you were to roll back some of these things that you that you don't like some of the regulations And and all of that that you'd be you'd end up sort of short term hurting a lot of people Let's say even if the long term they do have any responsibility then sure and and it's hard It's not easy and I don't think anybody should pretend it's easy. So what do you do about social security? You can't just end it tomorrow You would have to phase it out over generation two and there are multiple proposals on how you would do that You can't just they medicare tomorrow, but there's they're being proposed about voucher systems and phasing out the voucher over a long period of time So there are ways to handle it where you take into account the historical context of how we get there But the fact is that the more we delay Right dealing with these issues the more painful any change will be And the fact also is that there's going to be pain, you know, you can't run a corrupt Immoral system and try then try to fix it without people suffering people are going to suffer when the fix comes And the question is do we fix it consciously? In our control or do we fix it when when it's when everything's falling apart and we have no choice and people are dying And I think important and that is the if you're really trying to abolish it over a period of time The reason you would be doing it is as you put it. It's a corrupt system. So there's victims now It's not just the victims of them. Yeah So if you think of social security because it's it's a pretty simple example what the program is It's not presented like this But what it really is is they took money from young people and gave it to old people And not old people paid a ton into social security. So it's not a savings program That's you took money from young people and gave it to old people on the hope that when these people get old There's going to be other young people around and you can and now they're worried that because of demographics and various Things there's not enough young people. We've made all kinds of promises on the victims now are all these young people Who they're having struggling. It's a we have a changing economy. They're having trouble They're in law school They have debt and they can't get the job that they were expecting and so on and now whatever Job they get you're going to take five percent ten percent of their That they might be saving for a house or get a better education And you're taking it from them and you're giving it to someone and that is there's victims here So what you're trying to do is phase this out with and have as little victims as possible But it's impossible not to have any victims because the whole point of the program is to victimize some people for other people All right, I don't want to end this on victim hood. So give us a nice button ending. That's not about victims I mean at the end of the day, you know, we've talked in the series that we're doing We've talked a lot about happiness and and one of the ways to conceptualize or to think about capitalism Is at the end of the day capitalism is a system that leaves us free to pursue happiness This is the vision of the founding fathers. It's it's by taking courage and out of society by by eliminating the threat The fear of force of somebody walking to my house and taking my stuff of of of victimizing me That the state is there to protect me from that and it leaves me free otherwise To pursue my values to take the risks I want to take or not to take the risk But to pursue my values my happiness my success and indeed I don't think people can be happy In a system where they are fearful for their lives where they're fearful for their property Where their thoughts are being controlled where they're told what to do where they don't take ownership over their own thinking ownership Over their own soul ownership over who they really are Capitalism is the political manifestation of free will. It's the idea that you have the capacity to make choices into pursue Happiness to pursue success to pursue a thriving life I can't top that can you? All right, this is just one in a series of Interviews that i'm doing right here on the iron ran channel and there's a link to the playlist for the rest of them right down below