 Now we're good to go. Okay, perfect. So thank you. Welcome everybody. We are super pleased to have you here to talk about such an issue as the fashion industry, which is one of the biggest pollutants in the world. We have here two amazing women that is doing a great job to take this to a more sustainable level. So I'm really happy to welcome here first of all Claire from seems some dreams. Do you want to say hi? Hi, lovely to be here. Thank you so much for having me. And we have our moderator from the other end of the corner, which is Tommy here. Hi, it's Tommy here. And today we also have a speaker from my countries, which is Sara Fieros. She's the founder of the Go Ecolocal. Sorry, you want to say hi? You're muted, I think. Hi guys. Awesome. Okay, so back to you, Laya. Yes. So if you can start by briefly explaining what is your company about and what do you do inside of this industry? Claire, do you want to go first? Sure. So I'm the trustee of a charity foundation called seems for dreams and we advocate for responsible fashion practices and we give your clothing a second life. So we receive donations of clothing and we either promote that in a way in using vintage fashion to give your clothes a second life or we close under resource communities in India as well. So sort of two prong approach to make sure that the excess is a blessing to someone else and it stays in the system and out of landfill. Wow, it's awesome that we hope that this movement also we have the similar movement in Indonesia. How about you, Sarah, would you like to introduce your company? Hi everyone, I'm Sarah from Go Ecolocal. Thank you for having me here again. But for a disclaimer, I'm not an expert in sustainable fashion, neither in the fashion industry, but currently I'm running a clean tech startup with my co-founder called Go Ecolocal. And hopefully I could share my knowledge in sustainable fashion based on my personal experience in my daily life and my experience in work. So for a short brief, Go Ecolocal is an Indonesia sustainable marketplace. So we gather all local sustainable brands and products in one e-commerce. But with what makes us different from the usual marketplace in Indonesia is we created the products following the standardizations required by these kind of products. And I believe by creating and standardizing the products, it will create a customer's trust in this kind of products. That's super nice. Actually, sustainability, it's not about just eco-sustainable, being eco-sustainable, but also there's the social and the fair aspect of sustainability too. Which is mean like good working conditions, fair pay and all that. So that's super important also to keep in mind because people sometimes just relate being sustainable by being green. But it has like a lot of other things in the supply chain that is also affected too. So can you explain exactly how the idea was born and how has it developed? And just make brief insight for the audience. If you have any questions or all that you want to ask them, please either raise your hands or type it in the chat. So we're really welcome to get to know your doubts in this area. Okay, so I initiate with my me and my co-founder initiate go eco-local because we think that this kind of products like green products, vegan products, vegetarian organic products in Indonesia is very pricey. So we gather these brands and products together in one platform just to have a competition in price over there. How about you Claire? Maybe you have something to say about that? You're muted. Claire, you are muted. Okay. There you go. Yeah, it wouldn't let me unmute. I mean, in the space in terms of sustainability, I mean, it seems to dreams we really advocate the sustainability all the way through from the land and the farmers and then through the supply chain as well with everyone that works through that. We really believe and then right through to the other end, our main focus is keeping things out of landfill and keeping things in use. So that's very, very important to us. And how do you operate? How do we operate so it seems to dreams we receive clothes, we do clothing drives so we have a seems to dreams truck that goes all around Bombay and collects donations and so once we collect the donations we actually separate those donations out into three separate areas and one is appropriate clothing which goes through our NGO network to close under resource communities in India. The second kind of clothing is like your red carpet gowns or party wear or things like that. And those go towards our vintage pop ups which are fundraising for outreach programs. And then the third pile is for upcycling projects so any materials, any fabrics that can be used for upcycling projects. So we have an amazing upcycled line and we also use it to make other things throughout the year as well. So that's, that's our main focus. Well, that's amazing. That's amazing work you'd have done there. Thank you. Thank you. Then I'm actually very interested like how do you feel about the importance that individual gift to the clothing nowadays. And how do you actually suggest people in the way to become more aware about what they are buying and ensure that what they are buying is sustainable. Maybe you can start with Claire, perhaps. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's two things. You know, one is the desire from the consumer to be to be aware and to ask these questions of the brands that they were like fashion revolution doesn't really amazing campaign, asking who were who made my clothes or who made my fabric. And so they encourage people when they buy fast fashion brands to reach out and send an email to those brands, asking who made my clothes. And so I think that there's that side from the consumer. And then I think that there's also the legislative side, which needs to shift as well so that consumers are actually given that information. It seems to dreams we're actually launching something in the next couple of weeks that we have been plotting through the covert year through 2020. And we've partnered with a company called the swap chain, and it's powered by lab technology by lab leco and it's the first blockchain powered retail solution for the fashion industry and so this has a back end tokenizing system for every item of clothing. It also has the front end, be to see retail space and then it also has a C to C closed swapping platform built into that so basically what that gives us is every item will be tokenized on the blockchain that comes through that system. We need to provide what it's made of who made it where it was made the, it calculates the environmental cost of that item. And so that that information is right there for the consumer it's not hidden it's not hard to find. And I think that there's going to be a tipping point in the market when the consumers are so used to having this information like the way that we we know on food labels and things like that we may not look at it every time we purchase something, but we'd notice that if it wasn't there I think that that's going to shift into the fashion industry as well, that that information is going to be so readily available that even if we're not consciously acknowledging it. We will be kind of like why is that being kept from hidden from me that subconscious trust of that so. We're really moving forward and pushing forward into that space to create more transparency in the industry, and also create traceability with the clothes as well and encourage of circular fashion economy so that's the long answer sorry. It's an incredible initiative really like, I think it would really help when I was doing research on like the sustainability like the supply chain of the fashion industry. For example, to do a cotton t shirt you need more like the same amount of water that a person individually has like needs to in two years and a half that's a lot of water actually just for a teacher. So I think like giving this information to people make you realize a lot how like the amount of pollution you create just for your own choice of purchasing something. Absolutely, absolutely, and it's actually it's actually a lack of awareness because we sort of we have this sort of fantasy idea we don't really think about the whole supply chain and I don't think that's entirely the consumers fault because we're sort of blindsided by, you know, the solution of consumer fashion and we just don't even know. And so more awareness around that I think is is just, you know what's needed 100% really 100%. So, what do you think about that. Yeah, I'm actually agree with Claire. I'm suggesting that we as a consumer have to do research on the products that we are buying and think twice before you buy something right implementing sustainable lifestyle in your life so you can change your perspective to do something. Yeah, so do a research on what products you want to buy first. Awesome. So, yeah, it's, it's very interesting you know when when we talk Claire talk about the supply chain how actually we understand, you know, because most of the times that we don't know the clothes that we use, who make it. And then, like, it requires us a lot of effort to actually understand who make it where make it and does it have any sustainable impact, you know, the environment impact of it. And then from that, it comes another questions like, Okay, so we have this movement that we want to know the information within the supply chains, like, at this moment, like we seen a lot of movement going to become a sustainable in the clothing industry. Do you think that what you are doing at this moment, your supply chains is at this moment is purely sustainable. And what part that do you think that need to be improved in the way, maybe Sarah you want to start first. Okay. For me not all our supply chain are sustainable, because we are mostly dealing with local as a means small medium enterprise, where they have a limited capital right to change their products packaging like into eco friendly one. And there are some products whose packaging still requires plastic, because there's no alternative to replace it such as frozen food packaging need that must be sealed in a plastic to prevent food spoilage. But we do have a strict provision for delivery for delivery packaging they need to use an eco friendly packaging one. Yeah, so for, for overcome it we have a community basically we have a community development where we help our vendors to grow their business by educating them so we keep updated about the packaging and stuff like that to guide them to shift their packaging to eco friendly one. Well, that's a start actually and producing locally it and so it got so much emissions on transportation which is a major issue in such industry so I think that's really good step to start with. And Claire, do you want to add something on this question. I honestly, you know, sustainability is such a buzzword at the moment and I, I fear that it's almost losing its impact, you know, like organic used to, you know, everything is organic and I hope sustainable doesn't become that because it sometimes can be used as a very, very interesting ploy and not really, you know, not really in the true essence of what it's about. And the thing is, is that no enterprise can actually be 100% sustainable like it's where we're not really a sustainable species actually so we tend to like to speak more about response being more responsible, rather than aiming to be sustainable because if someone is is wanting to be sustainable. It's such an unreachable goal whether it's an organization or whether it's just an individual person. It's quite an unreachable goal whereas everyone can be a little bit more responsible. And I think that it's also much more inclusive and the more people that we have, being a little bit more responsible is so much better than having one person being completely sustainable. So even within our processes I mean we don't produce clothes really so except for our upcycled fashion line which is, which would be considered a sustainable process. We, we also you know we send a truck out to go and pick things up but we attempt to be as responsible as possible so our items of clothing that we have donated a geotag so that they stay in the city that they are that they already are and so that people can search for them within say within Mumbai or say within Delhi we're not sending them across country and we're certainly not sending them overseas. So we try and make sure that we're as responsible as possible in that respect. I think you did a really good point here like swimming 100% sustainable it's kind of utopian but being more responsible certainly is achievable so if all cut our emissions somehow it's really making a good change and an achievable change and will be perceived as well so that's exactly the point of change I think. We have questions for from Karthik in the in the commentaries so it says many brands claim to be sustainable but further diving into the material they use I have found that these brands are actually greenwashing their consumer. Is there a governing body that can empower the consumer to find which brands are actually sustainable. Well it's the consumer themselves that actually holds you know can hold the brand accountable. I don't think in India that there actually is a governing body. You can reach out to someone like fair trade India or even fashion Revolution India as well. Fair trade India if you see the mark on their clothing, you know that every part of that supply chain falls under the fair trade cat goals and strategies so that's one way of checking, but it is this is something that is is sort of an issue in the sense that when someone says they're sustainable it's like how sustainable. Is it the way that it was, you know, made initially like at the design point, or are we going back and looking at the fabric and how that was made how that was produced. And so I think it is about the consumer holding their favorite brands accountable and saying you know I want to know I want to know where that fabric came from I want to know how much water it took to make this item. And you know it's consumer sentiment that I think really changes and drives these drives the legislation rather than the other way around. So yeah, I think that that's really important. But yeah, it is a different thing and I also think that it's one step at a time like even if brands are providing great working conditions for their their workers, I think that that's one step in the right direction as well maybe the next step that they'll take is to investigate more where the fabrics are made so it is one step at a time it's difficult for a business to navigate through that as well. So I think that we have to understand that perspective to. Totally yes. Sorry, do you want to talk about bring Washington. How do you avoid that in your startup maybe. Yeah, for me it's it's kind of the same like what Claire said for a consumer I think from consumer side to overcome this. You should do research first about the brand and the products because we have the responsibility to think about how how you buy them how you expose them and how it's made like that. Speaking about greenwashing, do you really think the multinationals of the fashion industry would can really get. really get stored this step of sustainability or itself it's mother structure because they are all over the world and they produce in such a ship like cost effect. Do you really think this is available it's it's viable or it won't happen or it will be just greenwashing all the time for a government to have a role. Not like for the multinationals in itself like they're now saying for example I saw I think they were saying that 3% of their clothes were sustainable but I don't know if they were really that sustainable or sometimes even it's the tech that it's only made sustainable so the tech puts like I'm made sustainably but it's just the tech not the clothes. So this kind of marketing strategies they use yeah like really shocked when I found that too. But there's kind of this may there's this way they used to like get around all this sustainable stuff that is going on but do you think they can really make the change about this structure they have like this organization they have right now they're super big and super based. How do you do you think they can really change like personal opinion or they will be like they will try to but they cannot do it. Yeah I think most company like like a big FM let's say just FMCG company like that they are normally are easily pointed as a greenwashing company like that. I think they they can fully change if they like contribute the customer to take the responsibility. Yeah, I agree I think I'm going to be very blunt about this I think they have to change and I think that they will go out of business if they don't change. There has to be there has to be a shift and that's that's just reality and I think from a consumer point of view as a as I was saying earlier when this information is really readily available to people and very easily accessible to the consumer. And alternative good alternatives are presented I think that that's going to cause a clash for the big multinationals as people will just stop choosing their clothes. And so the thing is as well with fast fashion is how much lower can we go like that how how much lower can we go there forever having to increase their bottom line and have increased their turnover increase their profits here on year season on season and where is that going to come from I mean we can't they can't pay people any less they can't you know that there's I think that we are bottoming out in fast fashion. And that's why we're also seeing a bit of the shift that's why we're also seeing that already sort of applying their market and showing like it that, you know, this is the direction I think that we're having to go. And you know I think 3% is actually quite a bit and to say it's sustainable but again what are the parameters of sustainability. It's quite an open sort of spectrum and so I think so that they are going to have to make the shift and they are going to have to change. And so that's that's just the reality of the future and I think what the shift is going to be is more about the consumer coming back to like what fashion is really about like this obsessive non consumption of fashion is very vanilla it's not. It's not really fashion you know it's like fashion is such a beautiful expression of self and we've kind of numbed that out and you know that's really sad for the consumer is losing out on that as well. And so I think that there's there's going to be a shift more into the like creative expressive space with fashion a real trend of buying quality buying things that we love you know buying vintage hopefully. And you know really searching for fashion treasure fashion gold beautiful pieces that that we really love rather than just having a giant wardrobe full of blood. You know I think that that that changes that trend is shifting as well and so I think that these giant companies if they want to stay in business they're going to have to adjust to that and I think that's what we're seeing is they are attempting to and we'll see what that looks like over the next five to 10 years I think. Wow that's that's awesome and actually coming to the next questions it's very interesting when you clear you talk about your next upcoming program which involves blockchain technology. So this next question is actually about the ESG certifications that what type of ESG certification can company operate in clothing industry. So I give a little bit insight because in Indonesia I think the formal formal certification that actually to become sustainable in the clothing industry is not existed yet. Maybe Sarah can also correct me if I'm wrong but it's very interesting that is it like the next program that Claire you are going to implement on the blockchain is it going to include this kind of information inside the blockchain or you have any other. Either way maybe you'll have the more sustainable way in the way. Thank you. Please Sarah after you. Okay. We could like apply to the ESO standards to to make your company for a sustainable sustainability certification process. Yeah. I think in India there is there is some legislation around sustainability but it's more it's more from an accountability space so for example if you like I said before if you want to be a fair trade registered brand then you have to align to their guidelines. And for us, the new blockchain technology that we're launching that will all be included in the blockchain is that it's required that those things entered. And so what we see from that is the brands that will initially come on board are the brands that are happy to show that are wanting to show that and then that will push through into, you know, into holding other brands more accountable. But I do know that there are other bodies as well that are definitely pushing as I've mentioned fashion revolution before they do an incredible job on the legislative legislative side, lobbying for greater accountability for brands in in the space not just around sustainability from an environmental perspective, although that's very high on their list, but also from a social and economic perspective as well. Great. We do have another question of Karthik and Sabrina love him like he's really engaged so thank you for asking. So a long story short like the whole commentary is in the chat but basically he's asking whether what's maybe what's stopping the government of empowering their their own country, artisans and businesses because he seems like there is a law legislation on empowering that and maybe also if there is a lot of responsibility on the consumer shoulders on this sustainable purchase as they have to make me correct me if I'm wrong if I didn't I didn't say it well. He says I see so much unfair practice. I'm just going to read his chat. I see so much unfair practice was consumers in fashion for example access to basic necessities like number of pockets for female clothes when compared to men's clothes. One more example garments for women are so much higher priced and compared to men. I've heard so many of my friends complaining about how something as simple as good quality and healthy undergarments are so much more costly compared to men. What can we do to make this neutral and fair for women. Oh that's a really that's a really interesting question actually really interesting question. I don't know how to answer it to be very honest. There is a lot of discrepancies in in this way in the fashion industry many other industries as well. And there are I think it's about supporting brands that are really pushing for this that are doing a really great job, like off the top of my head. I can think of no nasties in India they're a fantastic company they provide basics they do different capsule collections and they do both men and women. And they're very reasonably priced and they've they've just celebrated 10 years so they were already setting these standards before it was a tagline. You know so I think it's really about seeking out these brands tactic that are doing the right thing, and that are in line with your personal values that you can see that they're not overpricing women's clothing compared to the men's clothing. They are caring about sustainability in terms of environmental impact they are, you know, treating their staff well you know who made their clothes. They're in their advertising campaigns even, and you know where their fabric came from and I think on that when you purchase something from no nasties it also calculates the emissions and things like that as well so I think as a consumer what you can do is that you can support those brands that are doing a really great job, and, and stop supporting the brands that are not stop sending your dollars or sorry your rupees to the brands that are that are not doing that are not in line with your values as a as a person. Thank you so much Claire for answering that thank you so much. Actually, our third speaker that she couldn't make it today. She does work on this on this aspect so maybe if you want to explain it a little bit deeply what she does. So, I would really encourage all of you to check a scene Shakti this is a venture by Swati, who's based out of Bombay and what they've done is they've created a patented sorry, the Indian sorry, which can be easily born, and it has pockets. So you can store a lot of stuff along with you so that's like as Karthik said that there is a major challenge, especially for women when you see that okay the pocket sizes are very small as compared to men and then everyone struggles with even like fitting in their phones. So an innovation like this, especially with sorry changes things for a lot of them and that has given a lot of people confidence and they've been receiving phenomenal, phenomenal response to the product. Yeah, so I would really encourage all of you to check that out and maybe see if you'd like to give some it to somebody. Yes, I remember like when I found out about that too because it's something normally something you don't really think about because you work for the whole life but then when you find out that you're the guys really have like this space for your phone and you don't. And I read it's because they want us to like purchase a bag or something like a purse so we have to have to spend double on that it's like some distinctions that are like, we don't even appreciate it but they are there so it's kind of touching that it really happens that to women like in this. They decide for us actually. So, and it makes it more expensive as well so there's like some people I talk with they say that maybe sustainable fashion it's kind of a luxury because it, the costs that are spent in sustainable fashion and in fast fashion it usually like super unbalanced because the fast fashion industry tends to get it to the lowest possible even in humane conditions so do you really think that sustainable fashion can be a luxury for people. Yeah, okay. For me sustainable clothing is in Indonesia. Basically, it's not a luxury thing, but perhaps because there are only a few, a few players who are doing it. There's players still delicate market price. So that's why it has, we have to support this and, you know, you, we can add more awareness which eventually will balance the supply and the demand, and as well the price right. So this is why we create we co local so we basically gather this kind of products and brands so they could have a competition in price over there. Yeah. I would disagree with the comment, not with Sarah but with the question that sustainable fashion is a luxury because it's actually doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be expensive the most sustainable item of clothing, you can purchase is one that is already in the marketplace so you shop vintage and you shop pre loved clothes. That is probably the most sustainable thing that you can do you're keeping that product out of landfill. It's really great on your pocket. You're creating you're buying things that you, you know not available anymore so you're much cooler than everyone else. And, you know, and that's one of the most sustainable things that you can do so if you're someone that's thinking, I really want to do the right thing but the only thing I can afford at this point in time of the fast fashion brands. I would say dig a little bit deeper and find the vintage market in in the place that you're living in because it'll definitely be there. And that is the most sustainable way to go. Actually, we have another questions here from me. So, okay, it says I agree with what you said about the responsibility of the customer however 68.8. Well, exactly. Of the Indian populations lives in less than $2 today they don't care about brands because they cannot afford them how do you help them follow sustainable fations. Maybe Claire you want to answer. Yeah, I will continue on with that. Absolutely. And you know what, that was one of our biggest things with this platform that we're launching is that it's so inclusive because it's actually you can be anywhere. You don't have to go to, you know, our pop ups that we used to have were in different areas of the city people might have to travel a long way. But it's a really inclusive platform and there's something for everyone and we're, we're purposely wanting to to price it across the board as well so that it is accessible for everyone. Because we also want to focus on different elements of fashion as well where you can have, you know, corporate where that is available for people that is big, you know, being repurposed and pre loved corporate where those sorts of things as well so we're trying to meet that need as well and so there actually already is a thriving, a thriving pre loved clothing market in India as well. But we've tended to cater to the higher end I guess because that's just the donations that we receive. But as we move forward that is definitely a focus from our perspective as well is to catering catering to people across the board. And this platform now allows us to do that when we weren't available, when we weren't able to before so we're really excited about the inclusivity aspect of it as well. Great. I started do you want to add something or should I move to the next question. I'm not really in to the Indian markets already. Don't write. Okay, so the next question. Wait, just bought another one, but was, do you think that hand based material could be the part of our future. Can it decrease the stress on the cotton industry. That was further he says cotton is sustainable. I agree but I have spoken to a lot of cotton farming since I come from the city that one of the cotton capitals of India called sorry for my pronunciation I'm Spanish so like all the names in the names maybe I just don't pronounce it well I'm apologize in the first place. Great. Thank you. It has a lot of stress right now some lands in India are no more able to handle the stress and they are using non sustainable practice to feed themselves and get some business. How can help me solve this. That's a really complex it's a really complex issue actually. In terms of the farming practices, and I'm not an expert on this either. So if you want to reach out to fair trade India, if their contact details are on their website. They are really the experts in in the cotton industry but I will say this that there is sort of a balance between the GMO kind of seed coming into the country and and the cotton farmers as well and there is also within the market that it makes it a little unsustainable for the farmers to be able to use these practices, but I do believe that the GMO seed is requires more chemicals to be able to more pesticides to be able to to produce enough crops to be to be able to be viable. And so I think that that in itself, you know, is a negative from a sustainability point of view but as a Sam, I'm not an expert in that side of things. Just an avid watcher. I do know from because I did the documentary on this sustainable efforts that are making some companies in Spain if you want to check it out I'll put the link you can see it in English. But there are, there were some talking about this change to another other types of sources, because cotton, it's like, overwhelmed right now that we put we use cotton way too much. There's also other ways to to use other fabrics, especially we're using the fabrics. And there's, there's a lot of initiatives are going on so if you want to check it out there. I'll just leave you the link. There's actually a really interesting company as well doing something. I think it's called go less, and they do a lot of hemp based products. So it's also taking care of the land and making sure that they're doing crop rotation. You know, in the proper way as well and hemp is actually a really could be a crop of the future as well in terms of our clothing since we're talking about sustainable fashion tonight but in terms of a good alternative to cotton as well. So there's a lot of people doing some very interesting things for HECO as well in India is doing some very interesting things with hemp. And so that's another sort of spin on that as well. And apparently it's a really regenerative crop for the soil. So, yeah, and so then you're able to get better yields with less water and things like that. I can't wait to watch this documentary. Oh, that's, that's great. So actually we have another question from Faroo perhaps Faroo you want to ask the question directly. You can unmute your, your microphone. Yeah. Okay. So I just wanted to understand one thing. I mean, see, you know, sustainable brands in the end can control what the materials that they use and the, you know, social impact that they can create through hiring the kind of labor and offering fair pay to their, you know, workers. But in the end, there is one thing that such as the logistics, which cannot be controlled by, you know, say the brand directly. So how do you think we can tackle the answer, you know, these brands can tackle the unsustainable logistics that are involved in, you know, transporting the product from, you know, the source to the customer. And secondly, what is the, what are some ways to tackle the life cycle end of that product. So I'll just give you one more reference with regards to this we work with a lot of brands in India that, you know, that are making sustainable clothing, you know, clothing, but they, one thing that they face a problem with is the logistics and this is where they cannot go sustainable because there are hardly any offerings in the market in terms of sustainable logistics. So they often, you know, collaborate with us in terms of offsetting the carbon by way of planting trees with us. I mean, I think that's what I was saying earlier is that it's, it's impossible really for a brand to claim that they are 100% sustainable because, you know, because there is this logistical issue, I mean, and we can manage it the best that we can. In response to your other question about the other end of the supply chain, the life cycle of the item of clothing, that's absolutely where seems to dreams comes in is that we take those items of clothing and they're either put into circulation through vintage fashion or we distribute them through our donation NGO network for donation so that we're making sure that those items of clothing are continually being used. And as I said, in regards to the new platform that we're launching those clothes also a consumer any consumer can come and make a profile on that platform and can put whatever items of clothing they want on the platform for up for swapping so that can be swapped with somebody else. And, or it can be donated to a charity like seems to dreams and then we put it to good use so I think that that's an important thing as well as keeping that circular fashion economy going. And I think clothes swapping is going to be a huge part of that a really huge part of that. I do have a question like no one isn't personal but you do operate in different markets so one is more focused on recycling and the other one is more focused on like getting people purchasing sustainability sustainable products more. So, do you think that there's already like a culture of doing this of being recycling or purchasing or it's more like you need to push your, the citizens to get to this type of performance or so to say. Okay, in Indonesia, the awareness is pretty bad. So, it's been our problem to educate them, because for me, the problem of us very hard to shift our lifestyle to sustainability lifestyle sustainable lifestyle is because our education is pretty bad too. So, we keep campaigning and educating people and citizens about this kind of things. Yeah. Yeah, I think it is a big thing around awareness I mean that is that is also the same thing in India as well I think is that a lot of our social media and things like that is is really about building awareness. We need to do this why, you know why we should be doing this, but also how like we, we definitely promote and support brands that are doing amazing things in this space. We also show people how to upcycle their clothes, their own clothing. I mean, I actually I want to correct myself even this most sustainable item of clothing is not purchasing vintage clothing it's actually shopping from the wardrobe that you already have. You know, so that's vintage shoppings maybe the second. But yeah definitely being able to reuse, re wear and recycle that is our that is our focus and that's we really do a lot of work to drive awareness around the need to do that and also, yeah, and also how to do it. Because it isn't, it is a change at this point in time it's not our systems are not set up to be able to do this naturally. So, so it does require some awareness and some effort for sure. I think we have a follow up question from Farron Farron perhaps you want to unmute. So like Claire mentioned that no ethical brand can ever be 100% carbon neutral or maybe 100% sustainable. We're working with some brands that want to do this and they want to claim to do the, you know, to their audience and to the potential customers that they are 100% sustainable. And to do this they're, you know, looking at some carbon offsetting tools, and they they're making efforts to, you know, maybe calculate their carbon footprints through whatever ways they are, you know, they have a footprint in whichever way and they can offset those. So do you think we can offset these, you know, can be offset our way throughout throughout this sustainable fashion. Yeah, I think there are some really interesting but like as we said before then you can't you can't escape the logistics, like you really, you know, it's almost impossible to escape the carbon footprint of logistics you can minimize it as much as possible, but you can't escape it entirely so I think that it's amazing that there are brands that that turn that around and say what can what can we do to offset this and I think a tree planting is a really is a really common one and I think I think it's amazing the brands are doing this. Did that answer your question. Yeah, definitely. Thanks. Thank you. There was a question about for us as you are in a startup in the fashion industry, which advice would you give to someone who wants to start in this file. I think for a fashion industry. In the sustainable industry in general, thank you if you're rather. What's your what's for what were your challenges or how do what advice would you give for people who wants to start running a business, like in similar files as yours. The market here especially Indonesia is very niche. Maybe you can start to campaign about your brand your value of a brand, your store your story about the brand like how is it sustainable. How is it very impactful for our life and future like that, just to, you know, to educate people to know the products and the brand first. I would say as well for for young fashion designers or people that are starting off in the fashion space is that I would take a look at, and a lot of the colleges now are actually doing this. You know that the colleges that we work with. I think everyone is sort of aware in the fashion industry that this is the baseline now is responsibility sustainability. And so they are eliminating a lot of those old practices. And so if you are starting out I think start off overcome those hurdles and find sustainable solutions because it's much easier to find these solutions when you're small. Then if you go through and set up your whole company in certain practices and things like that and then when you're bigger, trying to maneuver around and that's a lot of the advice that is coming from the fashion colleges that we work with. So, Vogue talent, Vogue Italia talent hunters that came to India a couple of years ago. They didn't even look at any brands that weren't focused on sustainability because they know that the longevity of those brands is not not realistic so. Yeah, and so I would say encourage anyone that is just starting out, even though sometimes the hurdles are a little harder, or the margins are a little smaller. You know, it's worth doing that for the longevity of your company because this is definitely a focal point in the fashion industry and that we're heading towards. Wow, that's, yeah, that's very important information for the startup that's going to go into the sustainable industry in the way I think sustainable is very, very broad. It's extend invasions in government all the way from the end consumer to the manufacturing part who actually they gather all the basic materials to actually make clothes in the first time. I saw there is a diverse industry that Claire and Sarah is like pursuing on this sustainability. What do you think in like this two or three years time like what actually your, maybe can I say the predictions, your prediction that okay, this is going this way I will do like this. So what you say about this, maybe Claire you want to start first on that. Sure. Um, I think the shutdown of the world for the last year has has really made people hyper aware like I think that there's been two fold impact on on this. Sorry, I'm getting attacked by bugs out here. But there's, there's a two fold thing I think that there's I'm not sure Sarah can speak to this actually because I'm here in Thailand and there was before COVID was happening there was a really big push to minimize plastic consumption. And then when the shutdown happened that kind of all went out the window because people are feeding migrant workers and clothing people and you know the focus shifted, which, you know, was is necessary, but I think on the other side of that in terms of the fashion industry is, is that brands have recognized as well that they need to be more sustainable, even for themselves to survive. Because they they like I know that last year a lot of brands started focusing on upcycled lines using material that they already had that they were you know that they could reuse they could upcycle. I think that that is a prediction that even more so in the fashion industry, rather than just being greenwashing marketing that people even for their own brand survival is looking at ways to be more sustainable and so I, I definitely predict that I predict the the use of blockchain technology, tokenizing products, more, more information available to the consumer, much more transparency in the industry, and therefore much more accountability from the brands required from the brands. So what is your perspective on your side of the file. Yeah, in two or three years ahead I think the sustainability business, gotta be big, especially in Indonesia because we is a small step but our government already supported and keep supporting it with the regulation updated, updated regulation from the eco packaging and stuff like that. So that's really good news to hear. Okay, so if there's no other questions we are coming up to like the closing. So, thank you all for coming thank you, both of you for for joining us as our experts in the file that I really learned a lot from you two. Yeah, I will just like to wish all the strength to especially people living in India right now on everybody please keep safe and stop situation. And thank you for joining and sharing your interest with us today. Thank you. It was so nice to meet you all. Thank you. Maybe perhaps before we are closing maybe a big one to say something. You there. Okay, I think it's all right then it's all right. And actually communicate further beyond this zoom meeting I hope that because sustainable is very important topic and I hope that everyone the audience here can actually get in touch and with us and about the sustainable and hopefully we can, you know, make my game our role inside the sustainable industry so not only hearing what actually people doing but we involve in a way to be sustainable for ourselves. That's more important. Okay, I think. Thank you very much, speakers so let's wrap it up. Thank you. Thank you. Goodbye. Thank you for having me.