 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer, and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Hello friends? Just Tom and I tonight. We had to we had to skinny down the group just to make sure we could really pack in all that hot Thandia action We wanted to dial things down. That's right. No, no, we're taking them up Tom up. It's the other direction It's beast seal. That's what it is Now Tom and I are gonna lock ourselves in a titanic duel of Legendary beasts on the plane of Thandia to discuss this new supplement. That's the topic tonight But of course first The news what do we got? So let's talk about that rumor engine. Yeah, I have never seen a rumor engine answered more quickly. All right Like well, that's not true. Like we've had some that have been like hyper answered This was answered the same day Tom Well, that's what I'm saying like there are some that have that have come out that we literally already knew what sure thing was Fair I'm just saying this went up and then they put up a picture and I was like, okay, cool so this is obviously a daughter of Cain model from Herod from Underworlds and the reason I say that is because our next piece of news Like I'm not even gonna carry on this because the next piece is the Herod eat stuff is the Herod eat stuff And in the picture we have our original storm cast who you know, we're in this season, right? Yeah being attacked by two figures one of which is a Skaven Eshin type Knight Runner gutter runner assassin fellow Fantastic, I've long said we're gonna get a Skaven Warband as part of this obvi because we had that one rumor engine That was like very obviously a Skaven on a pipe And we know and we know that we're not gonna get an update to the line this summer so I remain with my fingers crossed hoping and praying but living in the reality that we probably won't but you know I'm just saying hey, I mean, let's be honest. We're probably not we can hope I will hope until I Hope forever Hey, look if we get it no one's gonna be happier than me. We know that I'm just assuming I live in the worst of all possible worlds I mean if that if that happens, here's the reality We end up having to do a Skaven Warband for havoc this fall. Yeah, sure. That's great Because you will be you'll be on Skaven Train 7 a hundred percent. Yes Like there will be nothing else in my life, but anyways also in this picture is a daughter of Cain So like clearly we're just introducing the next two war bands in this one picture And so it's like okay cool. Yeah, it was a it was a weird picture, right? Yeah. Yeah, but I mean It's just like hey new Skaven and new daughters So for for underworlds and it's like all right cool good stuff. What else did you see in that that art piece? I didn't notice anything else like I looked at the rat and stopped. I didn't even notice the witch out for a while I'll be honest with you Tom Right. Oh, yeah, I mean it's like an Escher world where the same lantern girl is upside down Yeah, what you're asking me about? Well, just the little alien like headless upside-down Super monsters Mindflayers or whatever they are like up in the top of the picture like obviously that's not a warband, but tell me more I think it's just weird art for hero deep man. I wouldn't read any more into it But I mean with the with the doc book coming. I assumed this warband would be in the doc book So whenever we get the doc book, this would be revealed anyway So like whether the warband comes first or the book comes first or they come at the same time Who knows right? So I was happy to see this it gave me confirmation that we're going to get a cool Well at least get a partial re-sculpt of the worst models in the eschen line Which is the the night runners and gutter runners and stuff. I mean it's hard to at least one new one It's long desired. Well, you know if like somebody is aggressive they can go buy up all of the old uh death runners from uh from silver tower Right and do a bunch of conversions from them just a bunch of these warbands. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll be great Yeah So anyways, there you go. That's the hero deep thing and what it gave us and I'm excited and yes, obviously that's what the rumor engine is so cool neat Fantastic. Yeah, I mean it's exciting Uh I have it in the news tom to talk about the kradren overlords tome celestial update this week. You mean the new war scroll Well, I mean, yeah, effectively, right? I mean, you also did get your standard grand strategies and battle tactics that that shouldn't exist Which are fine Like there's some of them that are either way too easy or just you're never going to do it and that's fine um and like there's some There's wonderful controversy about what on the battlefield versus garrisoned in a ship means I don't want to get into that but like Clearly that's all a rule's mess and a nightmare of trying to interpret what that exactly means But the important part is because the admiral scroll Yeah, well it raised the the concern right of like wait a minute now We need to go revisit garrisoning because technically are everybody that's garrisoned on the battlefield or not Because it says they're in the thing. They're garrisoning. They're inside of it Yes, and it is on the battlefield. So like a transitive property. Are they also like Yeah, it's it's a mess. So anyways, but the worst stupid rules mess because and it's because they said you remove The unit from the battlefield, but they count as being inside the model Right, so it's truly a schrodinger's box. Yeah, they're both there and not there It's both there and not there indeed Yeah, which is nonsense because what they if they would have written written whatever if they would have simply said You remove the models from the battlefield That would there wouldn't be a confusion wouldn't be any confusion because that's what they're trying to say Clearly what they were trying to say at least how I read it is the unit is still on the battlefield The models are not right exactly pick up your models because they're in the don't try to pile them on the building like a jerk Right like just pick them up put them aside. They're in there now. It's an abstraction We all understand but no now we had to get this wacky reading of the rules Yeah, okay. So anyways, tell us about the new admiral tom uh, so I mean, he's great For what he does. Um, I think he uh, I like ko is still super matchup dependent So the good news is this so the big deal with the admiral is that he gets a number of ammunitions Um, he gets to choose one of the three once per game To to deploy and so it's kind of like a number of the once per game abilities that we've seen trotted out on all the different things Sure Although the wording is clear enough that like you can have multiple admirals and trigger multiple abilities Yeah, this one doesn't have like the achillian doesn't have the achillian king problem or the uh, the lord the forge uh, or the Uh the forge father no the uh The rune father problem from fire fighters. I know I was gonna get there. So, I mean what I would say is that uh He has a really he has an inability which is essentially like hey ignore all out defense once per game because it just increases the rent of a shooting unit on a of a like A non-ship shooting unit once per game during one shooting phase increases red by one, which is nice It's an incredibly good ability and and and I think you're undercounting it by saying ignore all out defense The point of shooting is that you can't all out defense against it very efficiently Because you could take your ship shoot first target some unit They're going to respond by all out defense saying and then you dump everything Pop the red into this other thing and now that command ability is not there Certainly, certainly. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's a bunch of reactive kind of fun plays that can be used So that's good. Um, the other one that really caught my attention was the within 12 inches you target a unit and it loses It's ward safe. Yeah for that phase or that shooting phase And the most significant about the thing about this is that it's targeting an enemy unit Right and there's no keywords associated with it. So yet again We have cities of sigmar coming out on top because they can include an admiral and like he can pop an enemy unit And increase like iron drake shooting Right and make it so that iron drake shooting no longer has uh work saves against it Yeah, I'd be modeling up an admiral to join to join my tempest. I fleet right now, buddy. Yeah, right Like that dude just kind of runs forward. He's like Um, yeah, totally. So, uh, I mean what I'll say is that like I was already including one admiral in my list Like, um, he did lose his immune to battle shock in a 12 inch radius passive Which was like a big deal to me because like that's one of the reasons why I ran him that said most of the uh Most of the sky ports have anti battle shock abilities baked in and this is a low model count army most of the time So that generally didn't matter a whole lot Yeah, um, so I mean, I think overall it's a strong change And it would probably hate but me from running one admiral to possibly two So, I mean, it's it is a nice change. Is it a like a pankea fix all for the faction? No, um, like it's just it's not a it's not a uh I don't want to say this it is not a beast men buff No, it's not beast men. Absolutely not. But but the admiral change was welcome. I do think he had some interesting utility And that's cool. Certainly. So yeah, good Like I like when they take a model like that and make him an interesting utility part of the army So that was a positive change not as good as we hoped but also not as bad as some Um, like there was real utility added to the army through this through what this change was so good Like oh by the way, let me just say I was thinking about a different art piece than this community piece Uh, this underworld. Yeah, I know there's another art. Yeah. Yeah, there's another one that they released Yeah, I gotcha All right Cool. Um, there is an explanation for what those things are. Some people said it in the chat I'm not paying any attention to underworld's lore. I'm sorry. I don't I refuse I barely want to learn normal game. I'm certainly not learning. So, you know what it means though, right? That is our next edition Is it will do Always when we go to will go eventually. I mean it's not coming now, but you know, I agree But you gotta remember beast grave, right? Was our preparator was telling the ground for going to ger And like we had that like significantly early before the city. I gotcha. Yeah. I mean, realistically, you've got a new edition coming in what 2024 So it's not that far, right? It's totally ger old goo is coming. Maybe those dark elves in the in the starter kit Yeah, there you go. All right Uh, yeah, that's that's when we'll get the malaria infection in the in the fourth decade A decade after aos initially launched think about that think about whatever I just thought it's exciting that they included the tome celestial for corrider and overlords along with the announcement that later this year They'll be making a bunch of new corrider and overlords figs that they've mislabeled as 40k figures But that's all right. Everybody's gonna everybody's arco just got a sweet upgrade Let me just say that them little dudes that they preview to gonna be everybody's arco comfortable or whatever that would be Yeah, that the the squats release. Well, or or they'll be thunderers because they'll probably be on 32 mil base is not 25s like arco A fair point All right, let's move to some pick of the week so Tom, what would you like to share with everybody? Um, yeah, so our friend of the show buddy two plus tough Did just released a review today on a look at the thandia stronghold box And we're actually talking about the campaign. So this is kind of a supplemental Topic to what we're doing today. We'll talk about it a little bit, but Um, I just want to kind of spruce that video. Um, I always love doug's treatment of things Nice even-handed engagement excitement. Um, and honestly like In all fairness the box is a bad deal financially, but I am in Like I just love it. I don't know why there's something about I mean, I'm gonna use the model, right? I love the little ghost the that my new night haunt model is what that is. Sure, but An addition to my army, but I don't know. I just love the box. Like it's just like I like the training pieces The boards like two of those boards Are the perfect size for For path to glory And so like that box is like a path to glory starter kit and we'll talk about that tonight when we talk about The anvil because I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll be connecting that to some of the stuff that I'm doing locally. So gotcha um Yeah, uh, my choice is our good friend our good buddy mr. Mephisto who did a wonderful interview discussion and rancest with ziggie ziggie from uh, you know of the of the stats center This is just a good discussion about data and why and how and all of that kind of thing So if you're curious, you know, we've we've used The stats center and ziggie and and robbs data many many times and so, you know, they're absolute heroes for For for putting all that data together. So it was just a cool chance to let ziggie talk about why And what and what the purpose is so check it out. Both of those will be linked down below Uh, all right cool beans fast fast and fancy free tom Always always we're gonna move. We're gonna be moving quickly here Let's talk about hobby time. I run a tight ship around here tight ship around here. We're gonna make tyler cry tom, what's on your table? Uh, I am doing this is gonna be really hilarious considering we just talked about white dwarf updates Um, I am doing a commission of corn for a friend Okay, and uh, a nice classic red Treatment of corn gold trim. It's great It's great. You'll probably see it on your table sometime. It's fantastic. And uh um I assume those wrath mongers are going to be behind snakes Uh, of course those that commission has already been done. Um, I mean what I'll say is that uh, I I like the corn models Like I haven't painted out a bunch of painted up a bunch of them And I just really enjoy them like the musculature is fantastic and yes So I'm just I'm just enjoying painting some models and then my son's working on a fleshy reports army And so, uh, I got all that built and painted or I got all that built And we got it all by it based and we got an airbrush primed and then did our first Uh, uh, like base coat glit glaze and so Um, yeah, so I'm doing a semi quick army, you know for him as well so nice Nice, that's awesome. Uh, yeah wrath mongers are pretty cool fun to paint actually a lot of the corn models Just the the worst ones are the blood warriors because they're like eight million miles of trim Around the armor that they have they're they're the worst part like the blood reverse fun wrath mongers fun It's the blood warriors that are the they're the nightmare Um, but fortunately they've basically never been good. So, you know, I guess you don't have to paint them Uh, that's nice. They've always been like the worst thing in the army. So right, right And I haven't made this so that's encouraging. Um, I love the wrath mongers and uh, I don't know. Uh, the other thing we can do obviously is if scaven don't happen Maybe it's all corn army this fall. I'll just be painted dogs forever uh The there it is there. I have it you go corn dogs I'll go dire wolves and we'll just be the doggo's army just all the doggo's all dogs go to Yeah, all dogs go to hell. That would be the name of the army. Yes. It's very easy That's a slam dunk that one writes itself It's super done with granny and just all the dogs. Yeah. Yeah, yeah Um, it's not gonna happen, but it's funny. Okay. I mean wouldn't it be that'd be amazing It would be very funny. Um, we would need to build some our display board would need to be some form of giant dog house Or kennel like or Yeah, yeah Uh, I'm glad we added this extra discussion onto hobby time because as usual I am painting a bunch of stuff still that I cannot talk about so Uh, stay tuned. I guess for next month when I can talk about this stuff So there you go um, okay With that let's leave hobby time behind And let's move into our main subject tonight, which is thundia Uh, the first in what is assumingly many Uh, series seasons of war Uh So Yeah, I mean it's on the spine right so thus it has to be Yes, we will see multiple releases of whatever this is Yes, we will like this. Is it just the one season of war? They didn't use the word season of which there are multiple and changing To to apply this is what I would expect across the bow So a brief kind of glimpse in the future. I would expect that we see one of these every year At minimum At minimum Um, do you think we'll get a box like a table box for with terrain every year? Yeah, sure. Yeah I think so too I think that will because I think that all that is just an easy like package product line, right? Which is book associated terrain launch box because it's a table in a box functionally Because you know, I talked about having the two boards that get included You notice that they also release another board set that matches that pairs with those two In the box set with the same terrain type And so functionally you're getting like if you buy the box and you buy the 60 dollar like board expansion You get an entire table of boards. I guess yeah, all right So before we're going to talk mainly about the book, but I want to I want to get into the box Yeah, totally. Okay So yes, we like obvi, we're giving we're getting more seasons of work. I don't think that's anything surprising. Okay um I would assume these are at least once a year if not more um So, but I want to talk about the box of terrain 220 us, right? Is it's price? Yep, uh Retail comes basically I mean, sure. I'm just but I'm always going to quote retail price, right? Yeah. Yeah um Comes with the associated terrain the various and sundry terrain And then comes with the the incarnate fellow who is quite big. He's on 130 mil base. So he's he's a larger fellow Yeah, we'll look at him. He's a negosh-esque model Yeah, he's not that big, but sure He's not as tall. They're both in the same base, but he's not as tall Okay, so You know what the miss is give me I think I know I think I know the missus you go. I'll wait you go Um, I think the I think it like it's a stunning terrain set I think you know Anthony in the chat called out like he he thinks that people underestimate how much terrain costs And he's right Um a normal terrain piece if you were to buy it even in gw's cheap heyday It was $50 a piece and so four pieces would be $200 and you're getting way more than that in this box um And you're getting another model that's playable, but to me the real miss here Is that the book should be in the box? If the book was in the box This entire conversation would be moved And I think that they would sell Quite a droop will the number of boxes that they will end up selling I thought they did that the book would only be in the box and that would be worse But I don't think so because you think that that you think that the model will only be in that box Or do you think that they will launch the model separately in two months? Eventually, okay. Here's my problem with this release strategy. Sure. I don't like it. I'll just I'll come up straight out and say it Okay, I don't like it the appropriate sort of launch package here Should have been terrain and the book in a box Book by itself incarnate by itself Those should be free products on offer I agree no incarnate in the terrain box. You don't think the incarnate should have ever been in the terrain box. No See like see my pushback would be I think it should be all of it in a box bundled together And then the book separate and the incarnate separate That'd be fine. I I would like In my in my mind that would have been the perfect release and I would have bought the Like I would have bought that box. No questions Now I'm gonna buy it and feel a little bit guilty about spending the money Yeah, my issue is just the box plus the book It's not a small investment, man. You're right. No, I agree And the reality is most people just want probably The book and the incarnate guy. Yep. Yep Right. Yep. And so not like will they probably have the incarnate Eventually separate Yep, probably Okay, but like I don't know when that could be it could be a long time Right as sometimes it is And I just don't love at all That the only way at this model that is usable for every army Is to buy a 220 box like that's just silly Now whether or not you're actually going to use him in every army. That's highly suspect as we'll discuss. Okay Yep But I just I don't like that. I cannot get him Separate I just it really bothers me to no end when they release a new model like he's not terrain. He's a model Oh, I know and I am aware. He has points He's a ghosty boy. He's a model He's a ghosty boy. Yep. Those should be available Like I already hate The the the trapping special heroes into dual boxes, right? But at least then you're getting like more of the army that you're ostensibly playing Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah Like, okay. I got my you know, I play daughter's a cane. I want new whippy Sister hero lady Right Sure, I get some more some more daughters that I can theoretically use Yeah, right. Okay Not the best rollout strategy, but at least it's stuff I probably can use for as it's for my army Sure, sure here. There's no guarantee you need that terrain or you want that terrain. No, and this is the problem Right So that I think to me The box is actually a thorn in the paw of an otherwise fantastic Release Because I mean, I'll get I'll just jump right to my summary I really like this book Yeah, the book is great. This is absolutely a tale of two cities right here Okay, I think the book is exactly how these books should be done with one minor Minor You know sort of issue that I have that I'll raise later on Sure It's it's the incarnate by the way um Well, I disagree. I quite like the incarnate. No, look, we'll talk about what my issue is. Sure. Sure But like to me the summary here is This that terrain box is marring an otherwise fantastic Launch to what these seasons are Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, because I uh Like a want Cool narrative story that's accessible in a lot of ways without Feeling like if you're trying to be a competitive player You suddenly have to learn a bunch of new rules every time one of these things comes out To keep pace and they did a fantastic job with the narrative offerings in here There's like three solid sections of great narrative offerings okay And There were and the match play rules are really smart I really like how they did them because they sequestered them into a battle pack We'll talk about that what that means, but it was brilliant to do so okay And It's great. This is the kind of this is the narrative book I wanted. I have basically no complaints. It's a fantastic book It's totally worth it. This is the kind of stuff They should be making and then they put out the box set whereas the only place I can get little little dragon swirl and Well, I mean that's not true like we will get Him alone probably as a web exclusive sale Uh, you know what how we're gonna get him. I'm gonna take 130 mil base Okay, and I'm gonna take some dragon head bit. No, there's already a 3d sculpt of this stop There's already a 3d sculpt of that still involves more work than I want. I'm gonna take 130 mil base I'm gonna take some extra terrain pieces. I've got I'm gonna put them scattered on there and put the dragon head floating above them Done and dusted. There's my incarnate Got him Got him Um, I mean you're not wrong like you could make a really easy one by just taking a spirit host And then like putting the skull on top of the spirit host bodies You know, so it's like the wispy things like you could if you wanted to do a pure gw conversion and it would be super easy Um, yeah, I mean like I don't disagree with that And that's what they're going to make everybody do is proxy this thing 3d print this thing You know basically create alternative versions of this thing because you printed a $220 model It's just not it's just crazy Right, like I mean that's the problem By the way sitting alongside A fantastic book Yeah, the book's wonderful. Love the book. Yeah, right. So let's get into the Because that's the that's the the bright side. Is there anything I missed in my summary here for you? I know no, I somebody pointed out like the cron spine or whatever like the Skeleton stuff is like crondis's dragon head Like whatever it is like it's like poor guy Uh, he had his and whatever, you know, right they did right Yeah, so one of the remnants of crondis's brother Is uh is buried there in that box. So um, yeah, I think it's great Yeah, yep Okay So enough whinging about the box which again, hey, I'm not whinging. I'm but I'm buying it Bye I understand then that's fine I'm not I'm not telling people not to like if you want all the terrain and find value in that then great Then it's a then it's a purchase for you Well, it's not like the train is bad in some way or I don't find it useful like I like it all fine Okay, I'm functionality on the table is sometimes suspect, but it's fine terrain I'm launching a seasonal or I'm doing like a like we're doing a local thing with me and some of my friends And we're and we're doing a path to glory And so like literally it is a path to glory like a club path to gory kit in a box Right because it has a consistent board with terrain. That's relevant and where it's going to be set in the Thandia using that battle pack and we're going to use the envelope of possibilities and anyways So like in that sense to me it's great because it brings everything together at a single purchase and then just sets that aside And like it's thematically consistent and stuff like that so Manzac said go buy a a snake skeleton toy. Yep. Perfect. Just twist that bad boy around done and dusted okay All right, let's get into the individual rules So we're going to start right away with the incarnate because This book is divided into this sort of core rule concept Yeah, which is stuff that you use all over the place in kind of all appropriate sub types of game and then open narrative and Uh and the match play stuff. We're not going to talk about the open play stuff tonight. I'm sorry It's fine. Like if it's a thing that you like that's cool. I don't have any opinion on it I've never played that thing in my life. So I don't I have no intelligent commentary to offer But it's there. It looks like there's fun stuff if that's what you're doing So cool beans But we are going to talk about everything else Okay incarnates Well, first of all the fact that we got a page of rules here with a header called incarnates Yeah, tells me that we're getting more of these bad boys. So strap in. This is just the first one of theoretically many Um, this is a new thing now Um, as a matter of fact, um, I'm going to show you at the end what the second one is I'm going to I'm going to actually show you the second incarnate at the end of this presentation I accept. Okay Um By the way, this is something not in my prezzo But my favorite section of this book by far Is the monster bestiary section That just talks about where they where they talk about all the local like flora and fauna. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah It's super cool. So it's super classy. Like just to give everybody an idea here It reminded me of the end times where they would talk about like the named units And have like the sketch drawings of those. Yeah, yeah Like the art is super classic and there's just a whole bunch of there's like a bunch of neat monsters that aren't in the game Like the thawndigan flat horn Right. Just really cool art one like some of them are yeah Like especially like the flora one of the things that's fascinating about it is like those plants and stuff like that Are the terrain that specifics, you know, those are terrain, you know Yeah, like this stuff like the itcher moss and the growl oaks and stuff. Yeah But this this section is just so cool. Like I Love stuff like this. I just I really do um I don't know yet like it as a as a dnd player of more than 30 years Like that kind of stuff that bestiary was it tickled me pink like I really dug that section of the book So yeah, anyways, it you know That that's the kind of stuff they put in there that I really really like so Listen gw if you're gonna keep doing stuff like this, please keep those sections in there Love them. Yes a plus work keep up with the cool art the cool descriptions expanding the world giving us more flavor of the setting Great great. Yeah, that's lower. I can get into um Okay, back to our incarnate friends here Boy, oh boy. Oh boy. Can you hear that rain? Oh, that was thunder. I assume was what that noise was. Yeah It's it's miraculous. Sorry. No, just barely like it honestly just barely came through like it was only when it kind of peaked At any rate, all right I'm not going to read everything on this page and that leads me to my first point. These have too many rules Just too many These have too many rules End of story Okay, I refuse to accept this is the this is the first draft this needed a pass Yep, and you'd look at it and go, okay cut half of this and come cut half of this out. Yeah, correct Like we don't need all of this I know you're design principles. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Like there's just too much Bonding. All right. So the incarnate has to be bonded to a hero Bonding in a carnage to a hero is a unique enhancement. All right. Well, that's things I need to know how that works what that means Right. Okay. What that effectively means is you can't give it to like marathi or somebody like that. All right, right Uh, remember which hero the incarnate is bonded to on your roster a hero cannot be bonded to more than one incarnate And incarnate cannot be bonded to more than one hero You can't include any other allied units as soon as you take it incarnate at all But this one incarnate can be your allies even if those points are exceeded So enjoy a thousand point game with your 400 point incarnate going buck wild on your enemy Um, that's fun I like okay. I don't know why there was the need for that particular rule breaking exception Well, because they like they were trying to harken back to how uh Go track was treated like that's what they're trying to do with that. Yeah, I understand and I don't like that either so Good stuff. Sure. Sure Uh, if the hero is slain then the thing reverts back to its wild form Which means you still control it, but it can also attack you so it can go ham on your own troops depending on what's there The incarnate has states effectively these different levels on a chart where it goes from like three to two to one to zero It starts at two and then goes up or down. It has planes walker loyalty. It's a planes walker loyalty. Exactly. Thank you Thank you I that is when I was explaining this to somebody else who played magic, which by the way magic reference suck it So there we go You're welcome audience. Yeah First thing I said was they have planes walker loyalty It's the best way to explain it. Okay. It's just capped Unlike unlike most what it's it's planes walker loyalty on a combination between a croak and murathi mechanism. Yeah, yeah so Then they don't actually have wounds even though they're a creature instead they all get this weird croak like system Where exactly they're like if you took croak and murathi and you put them together in that like facebook scam What do your kids look like thing? That's like a data harvesting scam, you know What would come out would be an incarnate. Okay, because like ooh spooky When they well it's like it won't come out as an incarnate playing magic together Because effectively not to dance around this too much Like I will I will say what the rules are for everybody and not just be sure sarcastic jerk You allocate wounds to them in the same way they have an armor save you fight them like normal Your troops will walk up and stab them with pointy sticks and such But instead of resolving wounds on them like you keep track of the damage They suffer and then in the battle shock phase you roll 3d6 And if the roll is less than or equal to the number of wounds allocated to the incarnate Its level is reduced by one So you're trying to roll more on your 3d6 than the wounds suffered like you're you're generally trying to put about at least 10 wounds on them took pretty consistently 11 technique if you want it to break slightly over 50% but yeah, sure sure Um, and then its level is reduced by one and then all those wounds go away Yeah So it unless you pull sneaky deaky tricks like you wound it like with 11 wounds and hit it with an autoslay effect Because in the case of autoslay effects, they just lose a level So you could stack both of those and make it die in a single turn if you're sneaky if you're sneaky but Realistically, it's mini morathi. It automatically lasts at least two turns. It can't be killed in a single turn regardless of damage Like it can take four million damage in combat And then at the end of that it's just going to tick down a level and then all that damage goes away, right? Yep Yeah And it's still gonna grind on the thing that it's uh up against right right exactly Uh So That's how its damage works. I would have completely thrown all of that right in the bin The incarnate states and the damage those are all gone in the bin wounds characteristic done We've got a mechanism for this. It's called wounds Well, we didn't need this extras like mordheim. Are you knocked out of action? Resolution mechanism to see whether the wound resolved. I hear that I like that. It's not wounds first of all I like that it's unique. It feels different, right? um What I could have done without is any reference at all to endless spells Sure Like if you took this thing and just cut out every reference to endless spells I would be content That's fine Like it's all just a trap like all the endless spell stuff is a trap. Ignore it Stop it. Absolutely is. Yeah, we'll talk about it when we get to the rules Yeah So our first one here, which is the cron spine incarnate of ker our little dragon mountain boy Yeah Bob chase is correct because it says right here An army that includes an incarnate cannot include any other allied units So meaning if when we get multiple incarnates the second you put one in you can't include the second You use all your points up. So if they put out like a hundred point incarnate That is all of your allied units including other incarnates regardless of what your normal cap is Yeah, okay Uh, all right This guy's four hundred points. He is single. He is unique. He is a behemoth He is a monster as a matter of fact. Yeah, I love that. I love being like giving monsters to armies that don't have them Sure. So here we go. Here's our actual guy. Here's our incarnate of ger 12 inch move tangray for a four save four plus save. We got a new little wounds Radial because we don't have any wounds on it or a new radial I guess Yeah All right, I'm not going to read all the rules on this guy straight out instead. I'm going to ask you at the top What is your opinion of this dude overall? Fine We talked during the live show at adept con that the problem with making a unit for literally every army in the game Is that you have to walk an extremely fine line? Yeah, because if it's even slightly too good It shows up in every army in the game the next day And if it's too bad, no one plays it and no one is interested in all the work that you did I mean, so here's the deal. I don't think that this army is I don't think that he is too strong For his 400 point package, right? Did we hit The middle bowl of porridge here? I mean, I want to play with him. I want to get him on the table and and have him run in You know like a night hunt army, right? Because like that's an army that doesn't have a fee a viable monster Yep, um, and I want to I want to get some mileage on him, which I haven't got had the opportunities to yet But I look at this in like a fire slayer army, and I'm like, you know, I think I'd probably rather run a magma droth Sure, um, like a rune father who's like 360 And that feels like that's the right answer Right, like sure if I have like if you have an infaction monster, that's just cheaper than 400 It should be powered around that You know and then you get this the faction synergy bonuses So it feels like that's the right kind of offensive punch, which is what this guy has sure So I I'm content with where he's at. Let me say that sure I think this guy is actually probably the middle bowl of porridge too slightly strong You think he's slightly strong slightly um Yeah, he's I like he's no joke This thing does quite a bit for his points value I don't disagree at all with garith who says this is actually quite a strong answer to something like dragons Right because dragons can't pick it up. Right. They can't pick him up exactly Now the dragon and he can actually level like mad off of them Now the dragons dragons can can't Can't or the dragons can pick up whatever is controlling him Like that's a real but he could be that thing could be quite Burrowed or protected or whatever potentially right well the trick is he can't die to them in a single alpha strike But he can level like crazy off of them Right, right Yes, um because he can just go ham on them and start leveling like great That's like his loyalty counter goes through the roof. He's like what I'm empowered. What what? Right. Yeah Um, all right, so let's talk about the actual Sitch here on this dude. Yeah in his base form His attacks are eight vicious claw attacks. I know it says six there But that's not true But it's not true because you add his his state level to those And so I'm just going to say what he has when he put him on the table Which is eight attacks on threes threes neg two two damage And three attacks on threes twos neg three four damage quite a powerful Profile like nothing to mess around with Yep, he has punched and that's what you want, right? You want something that's going to stay and that has punch But that is a real threat for 400. That's what he does. Yeah Uh, so, you know, he's decent The And then let's talk about kind of the what because he's he's also a bit of a buff wagon He's not like a pure buff wagon, but he is he is a monster buff wagon like that is definitely what he is Yes So what does this guy do? All right Well, his bonding Okay, yep, uh, he can only receive commands By the hero he is bonded to so if you want him to all out attack You've got to bond him to a totem. You bond him to a totem who can Who can hit across the table a totem or somebody who's got an 18 inch range like your general or somebody like that? Yeah, sure because then he has a much longer range Um, but if the all out attack command is received by this incarnate The command is also received by all friendly units that are wholly within Domination range, which is 10 inches again if you're just we're just talking like him out flat on the table, right? Uh, so basically everybody wholly within 10 inches Also gets all out attack as long as they're within three inches of enemy unit And they have not yet received a command in that phase So he lets you stack out all out attack, which is cool Plus one hit. I like plus one hit. Sure. It's good Uh, you know what? I also like re-rolling charges Well, we'll we'll get there. We'll get there. Don't don't don't jump ahead in the assignment Tom, okay um See that's called a segue that's that professional work Tyler. Let me show you how this is done But but we're not to that part yet, but sure You also get to add one to casting dispelling and unbinding roles for a wizard that is within uh Domination range of an incarnate. They are bonded to so if you bond this guy to a wizard he's an easy plus one to To cast for them as well as unbinding all that which is good. It's a good bonus I like plus one to cast and stuff is real good. I don't think that's controversial all right uh so Good buffs. I mean, what's your feeling overall on on just those buffs on the bonding buffs tom So you're telling me I pay 400 points For a free radius of all out attack on a profile that Can do some work And if I choose to attach this guy to a wizard I get plus one to all of my casting related things on that wizard Yeah I'm in yep, so The so I think that's a it's a good it's a good ability. It's I don't I don't hate it um Yeah, all right fine empowerment if he slays a monster Uh, then his incarnate level goes up by one um, I should state that Uh, oh, I didn't say I wouldn't read all this text. I'm gonna read all this text um The I said I won't read it all right away. I wanted to start with summary um the Then if he slays multiple monsters, he can jump multiple levels assuming he hasn't reached his cap So if somebody knocks him down to one And he kills two monsters say like a unit of two dragons Um, he can jump himself back up Uh, by the way, this guy's average damage on scroll like just straight on scroll Okay, with no modifiers or buffs or anything like that Against a four up save is 12.59 against a three up save is 10.3 Sounds like he's lifting a dragon every combat. Yeah, I mean he's he's uh, it's not bad now If he himself does get that all out attack Okay, if uh, if if he like if you're able to give him the all out attack His damage jumps to 15.8 against a four up save and 12.9 against a three up save. So Good damage. I'm in. Um, certainly better than my 420 point keeper of secrets Uh by a long shot and she just found another way to make slanesh great Yeah, well, it's we'll talk about that Because we're going to talk about what armies these go in Yeah, okay. If he goes wild form Okay So wild form is when your bonded hero dies. Yeah Okay, you add one to hit rolls for attacks made by this incarnate while it's in its wild form The incarnate can run and still charge in the same turn while it's in its wild form If this incarnate is in its wild form and is within 12 inches of a unit or an endless spell the start of your charge phase It must attempt to charge and you must make a charge move if it is possible for it to do so Now even when it goes wild you still control its movement. So like so you can shoot him out Yeah, this is what a couple people in the chat mentioned, but I wanted to save the discussion for here If you just propel this idiot into the enemy lines or kill your own hero and let him go wild You know through like sacrificing your own hero to any of a multitude in his ways. You could try to get your own hero killed Yep You know you attach him to some four wound goblin and then Pull it in the spell over him or something Um run across a deadly terrain Yeah, then you can just shoot him across the board to where he will charge them your enemy And then he'll just be amongst them with plus one to hit Right and like fighting them for the rest of the game Yep, and well until he dies, but until he dies. Yes He just ends up being like this snake and just losing their lines going going wild Like just this crazy rattlesnake, right? Um So there is actually play to like not caring if you're attached hero dies to like bonding him to a hero You think will probably die especially one who might be serving like a once a game purpose And then dying So you like you mentioned a totem Okay So like the knight vexelor with the meteoric standard is a totem And has a great once a game ability to do a big mortal wound bomb So you just kind of like can run that idiot forward after you're like suck on this And he goes and like holds a unit on his three up save and if they kill him It's just bad for them. It's exactly. Yeah, so I mean like there are funny things like that Yeah Okay, well, I like I'd attach him to like the fire slayer battle smith And it's like, oh you want to get rid of that battle smith belpha? Enjoy sure sure So anyways, there's there's play with actually, um Allowing your bonded guy to die and and and even if he does it's not like suddenly this thing is tearing through your army by necessity That's not actually what happens Okay, uh Inflamed savagery. So this is his other interesting ability Okay Basically all units wholly within his domination range, which again remember bases 10 inches around him on 130 mil base. So it's a It's a big space It's a big area Yeah Uh, the units commanding player can reroll run rolls and charge rolls. So that's just you Uh, all units cannot retreat including yours and your enemies. Yep. Yeah, and if the unit's a wizard That is not bonded it's minus one to casting unbinding and dispelling your non bonded wizards and their wizards Yep Right. Yep Yeah, so a little bit of give and take there on that one Um, obviously making the enemy not be able to retreat is quite good But if you're wanting to really benefit from the all out attack spreading it does mean that your other units are not retreating either Well, it it really does like Force decisions is as soon as he gets stuck in with that Um, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna raise problems for everybody Sure, especially if he's not easily lifted Well, my point is there you've got to think about exactly how you're trying to use him Yeah In your particular army Certainly because like do you care that none of your people can retreat? You know, like did you did you want to be in there with a slam-bam force? Just wrecking face. So you weren't retreating anyways. It was never going to be part of your plan You just want a bunch of free all out attack Right or Or like do you or does he need to be alone because retreating needs to remain an option on your table? Right I mean if you're like a daughter's a cane player and for some reason you decided this was a good idea to put in your army And you got a bunch of sisters of slaughter hanging out assuming they keep their retreat and charge thing in their new book Like boy, is that a whiff? Or they're rich six inch violence. Sorry. So it's not I it's super retreating charge. Yeah So the point is they can't retreat Uh or zombies Sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like just you got to be aware of Who this guy is standing next to But it is cool that you can get that you know, the re-roll runs and re-roll charges is also man How good of an answer is this to zombies now that I think about it Just jam this through down like a zombies Horde's throat and be like suck it. Oh, sure. Just let him go like straight buck wild on him Yeah, and then like they're not going to lift him from mortal wounds, right? Sure like and And they can grind for a while. Well, he'll never level on them and they'll kill him in two turns Sure, sure, but you might kill them first No, I I'm and I'm not saying he will But like you could put him in and then finally like come in with some other stuff If you want or use him to hold them to get around all the soft stuff Sure On average, he'll deal about 18 damage if he's in his buffed state of any way to the zombies Um So Yeah, I'm not saying he's like he is not solving that problem Sure, but he is but he is holding it. He's delaying the Like they can't run around him like they can most things Right, right, right Fair enough, uh And then finally arcane predator In your charge phase if this incarnate is within 12 inches of an endless spell that was summoned by an enemy wizard It can attempt a charge And it can make a charge move as long as that charge move finishes within a half inch Of an enemy model or endless spell that was summoned by an enemy wizard In addition, he can do his devour endless spell thing, which you will never do for so many reasons This is a bad monstrous rampage. It's very bad bad rampage bad Um It is bad because one there are no end the spells that people play So who cares? Hey, hey Terminexus is amazing Right now the new book hasn't dropped yet. So it could be it could be hot road trash when the new book comes out But you know and two because you have to roll a flat 2d6 against, you know Trying to basically beat the cv of the summon for the endless spell And if you beat it you eat the spell it's dispelled and you gain a level which is cool But if you fail it you which is very statistically likely by the buy for most endless spells like way too likely Um, you lose a level which is bad super bad because then something that's fighting him can come kill him Not something that's It's too much gambling. It's way too much gambling It's like just straight gambling Again, delete all the endless spell stuff. You're fine go on Yeah, it's like with a lot of endless spells You're at like a 40 or 50 chance every time you roll those dice to lose a level Which means he can then die in one round like it's just there's no way that's worth it in any way shape or form Just like it's only worth it if you have to make it like if you have to make the thing go away Right if it's like, oh, it's killing your whole army blah blah blah blah blah. There's some corner corner case I'm sure I'm not gonna say it's zero percent of the time worth it, but I'm gonna say it's like 1% of the time worth it. Sure. Um, I don't disagree with that. So Uh, yeah, so the the that's just a bad monstrous rampage. Um Yeah, cool, but he's a monster so he can do other monstrous rampages too It doesn't say he can't um, it just says he may choose to do this one So cool Um, yes, I'm sorry you you do get his level to the dispel so plus one or plus two It's still not enough. I'm still not risking that role But yes, thank you for confer or I did leave that out swaggy. Yeah, I'm still not making that role Yeah, I like as Alex first said like options are good. It's always good to have that option But we're doing stomper roar or titanic duel like that's what's happening here. Yeah. Yes Yep, okay, uh, so that's this dude. Okay I think he's medium to strong maybe slightly concerning, but I think he's okay Here's my question for you. Yeah What armies as it exists as they exist now in the current world You know should be thinking about this guy who whom Is including this in their in their list I have a couple of answers Night haunt Sure, the lack of a monster suddenly being able to have a monster. Okay. Yep anesthetically. He fits perfectly He's a ghost He is he is in fact a a spirity thing. Yes I'm not gonna give you ghost. He has a spirity thing He's a ghost. He's a ghosty boy with a skull I don't know that he was alive, which is what I see like Ghosts are remnants of something that was in that form alive. No, it was a dragon It is literally a dragon. He was a reanimated dragon He's not a reanimated dragon. If you look at the actual image it just all that those aren't rocks It's paint that bone. I understand. He's an incarnate. Whatever rocket it is. He's a spirit. Okay So, who's your picks night haunt fair. Okay. Uh, yep. Jose said obr Um, I like him an obr Say what I don't hate this an obr. Right. Um, I could do Um I don't hate this in corn Okay, what's it doing in corn? Um, I like the bonuses to hit like as an army Why like they are already like you want to be spending most of your Um re-rolls in corn Right or like your command abilities on on your bonuses to hit or not bonuses to hit on the The boat like bonus attacks like there's tons of bonus attack command abilities and stuff like that And so all out of salt is one of those it's going to often fall by like when you look at the economy of command abilities that are being used All out of salt is falling by the wayside in that Okay, and so and so getting a generic plus one to hit You know functionally is helpful. Okay Um I have two answers for you here non bellicor slanesh Non bellicor slanesh. Okay, correct. I like that one. Yeah, like I don't which by the way I think bellicor is still probably a better answer in in sort of all things being equal but That being said, I don't think this guy's a bad alternative depending on the particular build or what's going on sure Sure, um, I think certain gets armies Uh, and keep mind like one of the you know, you you're the gets and slanesh You do have casters that could benefit from the bond and get the plus one to cast certainly Certainly is there stuff you'd probably want to cast um oftentimes like Oftentimes that have casting values that are you know, slightly too high. Yeah, so plus one can make a difference Um, I mean we're naming a lot of just bad armies right now effectively like the people who are at the low end of the totem pole And I don't think that's wrong Like that's the summary statement I think most of the powerhouse armies Probably have better options hiding in their book Yeah, like so here's a funny one that I don't hate Uh, which is luminous Okay, because luminous is often like your alternative is taking cows Which are way slower just way slower than him And he's going to like you have no anvils in luminous other than like warden blocks Which are a decent anvil which are a decent anvil but but what I would say is that I think he provides a really interesting pairing there and he's bringing a plus one cast which you have a lot of wizards that you could bond them to Like I think about bonding him to like the um, like the horsey lord Right who's already like a fairly tough hero if you don't want that to die another bonus to make the The you're the buff that you're spreading more reliable right, um And so like I don't think that I don't think that luminous is a knockout But I think it's actually a really interesting tool in luminous toolbox of already too many tools Isn't the problem there him giving neg one to cast to all your other units like you'd have to place him really carefully Yeah, yeah, like because I mean your whole army is wizards I'm not saying you could do the setup like he would kind of need to go over the side Okay, so let's let's let's throw a scenario out here So you have him near the um, you have him near uh Your wardens and sentinels with your horsey lord Yes, um, they are and it's and it's units within 10 inches not holy with him Right, or is it holy with him for what for the penalty? Holy within you can control this by tailing a single guy out then then you know what that is a non-issue I have 32 mil bases Sure, uh, holy within 10 inches one guy from each unit out of his dominion Right that is imminently imminently solvable On a 10 inch. I think that's right. I with luminous It might actually be a challenge because I think it's the if the in luminous I'm pretty sure the rule is if the if the unit has x number of models or more than the champion becomes a wizard effectively So yes, and then well, you just put the champion on the outside of the unit and the champion is never holy That said, um, but even if he was okay Penalties they suck Right But your horsey lord like Again, he's your reliability buff. He's the more reliable bonus. That's going to be able to spread the um The more mortals on five plus to everybody that needs it anyway Sure So like there are certain areas of the battlefield you can put him near and it'll be fine I could see it if you're sort of anchoring aside with him Basically what alex just said which is techless on anchoring one side and sort of this guy on the other. Sure, right And then you manipulate the holy within domination range to kind of make the right things happen Yeah Yeah, like that doesn't seem problematic to me and it seems like a really interesting solution No, he uh to answer blood. No, he does not have to be near the bonded hero So, I mean you may want him to be because yeah You can't issue commands like and you might want to be able to issue commands and all that kind of Or to be able to issue commands to him So like there's sort of a soft incentive to keep him near the hero, but there's no hard rule to it Yeah, again, I don't think he's uh, like he's not he's not like the answer To lumineath, but I think he's a really interesting tool that I think people if they play with it They'll actually find some some interesting utility there Um, but I think again stuff like, um Like uh, not fire slayers stuff like night haunt would be a great use for him. You know another one would be really interesting KO Sure Because KO doesn't have any like anvils Yeah, they have no anvils and they have no no monsters. Yeah, right and so he does all the things Sure And you never have the command points to do a lot of salt Because you're doing other things normally like you're all assault and defense and stuff like that in other phases and so like having Having that kind of free when melee is engaged is not a terrible thing. Sure Now we you have to be careful on how his no retreat works with we need to clarification on the fly high Because I think technically the fly high counts as a retreat Um, and so you'd have to be careful with that how that gets deployed. Yeah So the point is I think there are some armies that can that will like I think we will see this guy on the table That's what it comes down to I think we've given at least a case for some armies. Um, joel graham said you can do a really gross empty throne Varengard list with this guy in bellicor Disgusting. I want nothing to do with that. That sounds hideous and awful. Um, but I believe it Uh, I think fec would be actually be a really interesting combo with him Okay Because fec doesn't have ambles. Everything's five up safe. Like everything's just terrible Um, and they just have bodies and so he hands out some really interesting bonuses He gives you a monster that can't be lifted quickly Where like the terror guys they're they're good ish But they can be they can always be picked up Where this guy can't uh, they have enough casters that you really like some of their spells You really want to get off. I think the at like the arch regents D3 attacks the um, the terror guys, uh, like the flappy The five up word save. Yeah, that's exactly right Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I I think we're gonna see This guy get played around within armies I think he will tend to the sort of obvious use for him is to bolster the weaker armies as we've mentioned in a lot of these examples um So like I I don't know my my that's why I say he might be a bit too strong. Is my honest answer Um because he's good for the weak armies No, because I'm afraid that I'm not seeing how he can actually be used with the strong armies as well And we'll end up tilting a little too close to this guy shows up way too often Well, you're you're just saying like in the in the empty throne bellicor It was a couple other examples, but yes, like I don't I don't know. I don't know in the end. Okay. Yeah, like I'm I'm saying that if the if the perfect number was five On the scale for where he should have been. Yeah, okay. I could just pick a thing like one through 10, right? yep, uh My sneaky suspicion is he's like a six or a seven who might trend a little higher when put into the right combinations You know, this is something I was thinking about actually as you've been talking about it. There's there is a sense in which So like the answer right now we can talk about this is like More and or more hammers is generally better, right? Yeah. Yeah, yes And a lot of armies can feel like a double threat For sure sometimes a triple threat And what this guy is actually is is he's a mini murathi? sure For 400 points and so like when I think about it on the whole like I don't know if we need more Unkillable anvils that do damage sure. Yeah, that's that's what I'm saying. Yes Like and so like in a world where you're already running three hammers Let's do four hammers with a hammer anvil comp Like that that may be a problem Yeah, I mean we're going to talk about adp in a future show actual damage potential and and like yeah Why the damage right now in the game seems so much higher even though it's probably actually not um, but Yes, this guy certainly will contribute to that sort of thing Maybe And I agree with assistant ref that this is a very dangerous archetype, right, which is the The archetype here is very hard to kill strong hammer with utility for the rest of the things around him That's kind of banging on all cylinders all right realm rules Uh, I'm not going to go a huge amount into this, but I wanted to kind of touch on it a little bit Um, because what's actually happening here with these realm rules Is for the most part Yep, for the most part. This is taking all of our current Battle pack rules Yep, it's in the general's handbook for ger and saying Uh This is part of this now Like if you're playing in ger these are simply the realm rules and so like metamorphosis and feral roar And you know including it took the general's handbook season Yes, and bundled it and said oh by the way, this is the region of warthondia bundle And so arguably that may be setting it aside to prepare for a different bundle Right, Andrew. I'd have to go back and see if that was my exact opinion. I don't think that was my exact opinion, but okay At any rate, um Yeah, it adds this extra layer On it of like monstrous denizens that'll probably never get used Uh, so Whatever you just like pick a random monster and then People get priority of them and stuff like it's cute Um, it's a thing that'll probably never get used, but it's like literally a rule out of steve's tables Sure, it's like great for a sort of narrative game Yeah, it's it's weird sitting as a core rule. It felt like this should have been in the narrative rules Because it makes the argument is that this is the narrative rules, but yes I mean, this is you're right, but it's above that technically this is supposed to be the stuff in effect everywhere Including the match play rules and you know, I don't know about that um, I do like the additional miss miss mysterious Terrain which is where this is the stuff that you mentioned that we got in the bestiary some of the things like itcher moss And the barbed sniffer weed spears spears Which by the way the barbed sniffer weed spears are super cool there. I read their story They're just it's an awesome piece of art. They're horrifying. It's really neat Anyways, um So I like compelling weird stuff. I like new mysterious terrain. I like this. This is fine. This is cool good like This is like if I were to be playing in Gur and I'm gonna run the gur battle pack This is the kind of thing even in a sort of match play setting running the gur battle pack that I think would be fun to use So right and like I know we've taught we've been on this drum before but how amazing would it be if we just got like a Seasonal war for like one for each row Yeah, sure Like these bundled collected rules for like functionally like this is our gur battle pack. This is our akshi battle pack This is our Yeah, it's just the right way to go Um, so I like this I don't actually hate that it can also direct you back to the core table So those things are still there. It's not totally different. It still uses they're still mysterious and deadly stuff around Yes, I know assistant ref you don't like it that you have to have both tables, but like, okay It's fine It's it's perfectly fine. I still like having said the option of some of those in there I actually liked when we had sort of 12 options and I like all of these they're they're fun. They're neat. They feel beautiful to gw for keeping the uh the uh secondary businesses In in that are producing dice terrain dice in uh in business sure by giving them more products to to produce I don't think anyone's producing products for this one tom, but I appreciate the idea But yeah, I like these mysterious terrain rules. I think they're good. I think they're cool That's the kind of thing I like to see the the let's put an extra monster of indeterminate value Of any type on the table and then randomly rule for who gets to control this 800 point Monstrosity I just put around I mean, it's going to be like spiders like arachnarax or what should have been done They should have said yes pick a monster of the without a with that's you know Like a monster that isn't amount of 250 points or less or something like that right from or here's even better Rolla d6 on this pre pre curated list. That's the monster. Yeah, it's arachnarax and cockatrice's and um chimera and chimera And a gorgon Yeah, all of those like that that would all just be perfect. Yep That would all be fine. I would be a plus on that. That's how that should have been implemented Um, so that the monsters denizen is the only thing that added this whole thing Otherwise, it's just the ger battle pack out of ghb effectively being put into a more evergreen form So you can keep utilizing it to play in Inthondia and ger if you want to certainly we'll see that again later All right, um, I didn't want to I'm going to sort of Touch on a few of the narrative things here Um, I'm not we're not going to deep dive into all of this to stay within Our wheelhouse But I did want to talk about them some because I you know, I was pretty impressed by all this So there is a path to glory battle pack in here Um, if you're into path to glory I actually quite like a lot of the stuff that's in here for Playing a path to glory campaign in Ger in thondia You mentioned this tom are you going to be using this combination this narrative stuff in your local game? I'm going to use that. Uh, we're going to do a free for your general It's going to be the lowest like the champion level anvil apotheosis hero So you're going to craft your own hero and he'll be able to be included in like, you know Our games at every level. So whether we play like a 500 point game or 1500 point game or whatever To path to glory like you always be able to have him there and he'll be like your warlord It's leveling up. So you have your named guy, you know, that'll be like custom to your army and then we'll Do the additional path to glory rules with it as well And so we're all going to like kind of paint those up and uh, we got like a an idk army a fleshier reports army I think i'm going to do fireslayers Um, so i'm going to finish uh, like my fireslayers have been on a really weird journey Like I got to mostly finish last spring and then just stopped and they're not sure And so I have to I need to finish the army and I have a lot of stuff That's like partially done and so i'm going to use this as kind of the impetus to to finish those and We have a silvaneth army. So yeah, it'll be fun nice Yeah, if you're if you're into path to glory, this does have a like huge amount of of good thawndia focused content for you Including like six new path to glory battle plans um special rules new veteran abilities Cool quests to do like it's got everything you would expect If you're if you're a role in path to glory This will deliver for you for playing your ger based path to glory thawndia based games like no doubt about it It does it. It does it well, so Um, you know new territory specific to this all of that new scouting expeditions the whole deal Um, yeah I I don't have much more to say about that. I'm not a path to glory expert But if paul wagner approves it and says it's good, then I trust him okay The anvil of apotheosis you already mentioned it. We bring back the anvil Clearly seated in the narrative section Love the anvil of apotheosis. So glad to have it come back in a new form This is obviously the anvil of apotheosis apotheos It's the anvil ger And uh, but it's pretty much what you would the aoe. Yes. There you go. Yes um, so You mentioned you're using this. Were you happy with this implementation? of the uh Of the anvil of apotheosis. Yeah, I mean there's still some small corner cases that are weird like Yes, I choose dwarf carajan overlords, but i'm not a skyfarer So none of my guys they always have to be on foot, right? You know, it's a bunch of weird kind of corner cases like that Like I feel weird not having hand axes being a fire slayer hero Like everybody has hand axes But and I can't get hand axes, you know, just a bunch of small things But all that can be like That can be fixed, right? Like all that is is imminently like resolvable um In general, I like it it feels about right For what it's doing I'll get at the lower power level. I we haven't done any like exhaustive building of like strong stuff, but Um, I enjoyed it like for like it felt like a good solid foot hero Um, obviously like some armies are gonna get more mileage out of some stuff than others It's like when you're looking at like what to choose Um, when you go like, oh like a general leader type wizard priest I'm like, I'll take priest Because I don't get I don't get much more and I'll just take curse like, you know, and I'm playing fire slayer So it's like, yeah, he like all the prayers now Um, so I get get the option to pilot for free in my hero phase, you know PSC can bring that prayer for himself um So there are just there's that feels like there's some unbalance in those profiles Like I don't ever see an incentive to just do any of them. That's like the free all-out assault ability or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So like like that just feels lacking um But other than that, I like most of what I saw. Yeah For the most part, I think it's good. There were some small changes on the nature of Kind of how you build and what your options are for the most part if you were familiar with the past anvil of apotheosis You will be familiar with this one And what this means, by the way, we'll be getting other anvils because this one is the anvil of apotheosis Sure. Sure. Yeah, absolutely Which is fine. I I like the anvil. I like where it's sitting. I think it's a cool thing. I'm glad it's back in the game in a way I don't think it needs to be in every one of these books, but I'm glad to see it show up here Oh, it definitely will It definitely will and what this also tells me is that each one of these books will probably be a different realm I Disagree that's what I'm saying. No, I think the next book of these what no the next one will be gonna be also be ger Yeah, but it'll just have different stuff in it for ger like that's why they didn't call it Season of war ger they call it season of war fondia a region Right, so that they can do like a different region in the future. I hear that but like Yes, but all of these big narrative moves have been centered on certain areas like the wind swept or the fire swept whatever Of all the block the fire scarred planes or or whatever an oxy. I figure what the region was um I don't know. We'll see. Yeah, I I'm just saying don't expect to leave ger anytime soon would be my bet Uh, okay So by the way, I didn't say yeah, but if you're watching you haven't hit that like button hit like especially if you're happy That the anvil of apotheosis is back and you're also happy that I cannot say that word to save my life Uh, so yeah hit that like button Pidden buttons is fun. Do it. It's cool and it helps other people find the show um All right, and then there's also uh like a some additional narrative content in there the sort of season of war narrative content That's in there as well as a third part uh, all right So Tom Yes, the summons to war battle back pack. Sorry Which is a cool campaign That's that you can play through narratively. I won't dig into this too much But I just want to say the right choice they made on this particular battle pack for the narrative campaign is The armies that you need to use are looser and actually Fit probably what you might have as opposed to some of the previous narrative campaigns that were in like broken realms Where it was wildly insane the specific the specificity You had to have with the particular campaign battles. This is Much more open, which is good That's good. So I liked it Okay So Good times overall I mean, I'm like a solid nine out of ten honestly on the narrative content of this book like the narrative section It's great. It's great I just I This is what I want to see these books contain Do this like imagine we got like do more of this thing Imagine if we got two of these per year sure Okay And but like in this year both of more incur Sure And then next year both of more in oxy or whatever we've spent a lot of time there, but you know what I'm saying like Um, it would just be wonderful. Like I would just I would love it Yeah, I agree. So more of this thing, please. Thank you All right, let's talk about the match play stuff Uh I was really worried about this tom Were you I was I legitimately was do you go back to the show where they mentioned all the things that were going to come in This book. Yeah. I I even said match play boo. I don't need match play stuff showing up in this book Right, right. Okay. Well, it's the last thing we need is another like like more splat books more nonsense to keep track of for every time I build army. How many books am I gonna reference? right But then they came back around and completely redeemed themselves because This is exactly exactly exactly how this should be done Like a plus This match play section gets a 10 out of 10 for me. Tom. I'm not even joking and it earns it almost completely on this Implementation within the first page. Okay. So tell me on why this is the the golden child Because it is its own battle pack Meaning let's let's break down what that means If you open the core rules to the match play section, there is a base battle pack that you use to play match to play games So a subsection you can say we're playing a match to play game Then you decide what battle pack you use and that battle pack determines a bunch of other things Okay, namely like what grand strategies and battle tactics are available and all sorts of other Nonsense. Yep. Okay Including maybe even how first turn is determined. You know who goes first. Sorry and everything else Okay And right now at competitive play tournament play They use The ghp battle pack as we probably will continue to do so At most tournaments For the foreseeable future as that is clearly the battle pack that is most designed for sort of event type Compet competitive play sure But what battle packs when I originally saw them I will openly admit I didn't get it. I didn't see the power They're allowed Okay And what it allows is for them to do this Yeah, okay to say here's a an entire set of match play rules But if you're going to a tournament and they're not using this battle pack you ain't using this stuff Yeah Yeah, my only regret here in the end is I wish the incarnates had been shoved into this battle pack Oh, yeah, so that this is the strife and fond of battle pack and if you're and if you're using The strife and fond of you can use incarnate if you're using the one in the ghp You cannot right now I understand why they didn't because they wanted to sell them to everybody. Blah blah blah blah Right, okay, but I would have been so much happier had they done that because then I could just be like Okay, cool all of this if we're doing this battle pack, then we'll do this battle pack If not, I can just take all of it and set it to the side No brain space needs to be used no and no negative interaction of rules Everything's fine and well controlled and kept within its own little compartmentalized space How do you like hundreds of the heartlands just living in this space and not in the main uh In the main in the main thing, right? Yeah, exactly. So yes, exactly the point, right? So if you look here, you have your standard points limit pick. Guess what? It's exactly like we've become used to It's the same numbers. There's nothing different here um, you know allied units and and core battalions only not war scroll um, yes prime, uh Uh monstrous kill pack and hundreds of heartlands Which this changed its name because it used to be like alpha beast pack or whatever did no, it's different This is different than alpha beast pack sure Alpha beast pack lets you move. Oh a d6 inches, right? This brought over that. You're right. This is the same Uh composition but a different benefit. Yes. Thank you. Yes, right? This is a bunch of monsters, but now all of them can titanic duel, which is cool Yeah, and so what I like here is Uh, yes, it took over hunters the heartlands and said because because hunters is going to go away in t minus three months Yep, or maybe we don't know that but probably probably Um, I mean we will get a new battle pack in the new ghp and chances are it will not include this same battalion again, so I would call it highly likely. Okay, sure So yes, we get a new one that's effectively a new alpha beast pack type of thing with you know, a multi monster one We get a new hunters the heartlands, which is the same that can't be a bunch of anti monster one Yeah anti monster and then we get the new one, which is the incarnate masters of guhr Which is the incarnate this battalion may be bonded to the uh must be bonded to the hero in this battalion In addition, the incarnate this battalion only reverts to its wild form once all of the other units in the battalion have been slain Which you can basically tie up to three yet. You could have up to three other troops in there So what I don't understand Is that they think that's a benefit? No Is that it says one drop deployment What happened to unified? Right. We didn't just use the word unified Right, which is what battalions get or what battalions are called and they are one drop Yeah, yeah, it is funny. I like I saw that and I was like Sure, what what's happening here? But what I love about this battalion is guess what if you think this is super cool And maybe this could be exploited because it is unified and contains all of your battle line and a hero and an incarnate Like it is entirely possible. You could build your whole army out of those five units That might be stretching it a bit, but it's possible. Well, it's a great thousand point army, right? Sure. There sure But even if there were to be exploitative things you could do with this I don't care It's in this battle pack If you're not using this battle pack, you don't get this battalion Yes, that's it. That's how it works. You have to pass the gate to get all of this stuff Right fantastic This is how I want the war rules to work where we just have the ghp Here's the standard set for events for like standard competitive events. We all agree But we put more options out in the world like this because I could see A tournament like a two-day tournament that runs through these five things in order Right. It could be done Yeah, and that would be cool Or if you and your friends wanted to want to play this over a couple weekends or something great awesome You still get your match play game, but you get to experience a little a little bit of a narrative evolution as well Wonderful This is exactly the way this stuff should be invented But what will most likely happen is that everybody will just always default to the ghp because that's what a majority of events use And most this stuff will never see the light of day Again, that's fine I'm okay with that Right because I want this to be Useful to the people who are passionate about it and want to engage in this experience To toos who think it'd be cool to run a tournament like this to players who want to have this experience Not to all of us who now need to learn a whole bunch of extra crap that we have to keep in mind all the time And carry around extra books and double check other people's rules and and like in an overtly complicated game Compartmentalization like this is key And it's great Yeah So I like I cannot explain how happy I am about this about when I when I it's like the the penny dropped for me With this Right as to what the power that battle packs would allow Uh all new grand strategies I love I love by the way mixing up some of them are still using classics But I love I love the mixing up the grand strategies because like it's so stagnant right now Like oh, I'm all wizards Oh, I'm hold the line now obviously hold the line that's still here But uh to me when I saw that mixed this up and I was like, oh, please use these like make some armies actually struggle To like figure out what their grand strategy is going to be sure. No, it's it's cool. Um Well, actually this one's technically worse because the all wizards now this is all wizards and priests, but yes, sure. Yes Um I like that we can mix these up. Let me say it that way. Yeah. Yeah, I get what you're saying like conceptually This is great being able to change these like I you know, I often bag on army specific Grand strategies and battle tactics Yeah, so people might get the the Mistaken idea idea that like I don't like the implementation of the concept of those things at all. That's not true What I like is having a shared static common pool To draw from well a shared framework for everybody who's playing Within a given structure i.e. an event or whatever Right, right and that's what this provides if you're going to run the thondia battle pack the strife and thondia battle pack It would be great if we had no army grand strategies or battle tactics. Then we could just say Here's the set you use Right. Agreed. Agreed Right, so this is this is this is the way This is the way indeed Uh, all right And yes new battle tactics again, these are these are literally things i'm not going to read through but they're fun. It's cool. Um Like there's there's all the stuff you would expect here Um, well in the thondia terrain like are built into this, you know like because and so yeah It's just it cracks me up plays around a bunch with like incarnates and things like that exactly what you would expect Which again, like I said, the only problem was they didn't shove the incarnates As a general rule of like the thondia battle pack may use gr incarnates In it and that's the place where you use them, right incarnates are clearly tied to a realm Yes So it would have been very easy For them to have just tied incarnates as a concept to the battle packs that are associated with that realm And that would have future proved it as well. So if they come out with additional future gr incarnates Yeah, they're they're tied to the realm. They drop right in All right yep, and so Good stuff to me. This is just like the what battle packs. Let us do is finally live the great dream uh Of the offspring so um at any rate the Yeah, these are all fun And then let's talk about the battle plans here The nature of these battle plans is interesting to me Yep, because they are a direct sequence of five Linked battle plans. They are wherein you are meant to play from one to the other in order Yep And I like the idea of doing this like I Really, we have been looking for new battle plans. I'll be honest in my saturday group Like tyler doing war coda and introducing the new battle plans is the best thing that happened because we We had just kept using a bunch of ghp battle plans and stuff like that. Frankly. We've played them all a bunch, right? yep yep and So tyler introduced war coda. We played through all of those we played through all of his multiple times now They're great. Love them recommend them would recommend them But suddenly having new match play battle plans that are meant to be done sequentially We'll just do these over the coming weeks Yeah, in our in our just basement game like great. It's still a match play game We like to play match play games. We like a little bit of a twist and keeping things shaken up This is the perfect shake-up We'll just do them in order uh so You know there's These specifically add back the stealing the initiative sometimes like here in this one it does right Because this doesn't use the first drop this battle pack does not use the first drop Gets to choose. I know in this And so But it is preserved here in the first Yeah battle plan It also adds new scenario based battle tactics based on what is going on here, right raiders and blockade because one of you is the Raider and one of you is trying to stop the raider Basically, or you know, yeah, you're trying you're raiding each other I guess you're trying to stop your opponent rating and I love that they're like They are introducing the idea that first turn is tied to battle pack and not to like Or like so that people who go one drop like that's not always Like if people design their armies to take advantage of the timing Some of these scenarios just simply say no attacker goes first And that's determined by a die roll. Yep, sure sure absolutely So, you know, yes, these are more like These are more I don't know. What's the word I want to use I'm going to use the word imbalanced But that really has such a negative connotation to it. Uh They're a little more They're asymmetric Yeah, there you go. That's a good word. They drift a little more asymmetric They're a little more wild than the standard ghb But I like them like they seem fun That's what I'll say. I read through them and I was like, I am excited to play these that's good Well, and that's what you want in a in a list or in like a in in a Uh in an expansion Is you want something that that generates excitement? And that there's going to be an interest supply Yeah Um, I will say one of the things I don't know if you notice tom But one of the things this first battle plan does with clash in the borderlands Is in the raiders section because you get this ability called raiders Is it brings in one of our favorite holy event rules? Which is you can you get off the end of the table to get Sort of points or whatever But you but you have to actually remove the unit you lose the unit, right? Which is something steve has done many times in the holy events and I always really enjoyed it It's like a weird incentive structure because like do you Remove your unit that you need to keep doing damage, right? Yeah, yeah So I just enjoyed seeing that actually brought into a formal battle plan. I thought that was really really cool And then there's you know battle tactics that are related to this, of course So, yeah, that's clash of the borderlands pretty standard old deployment then from there It leads into the invasion. So after the cross border raids It's now left to you know now we get to a full-scale invasion Right And if one player won their last battle and their opponent did not then the player that won their last battle is the attacker And their opponent is the defender if one player lost their last battle and their opponent achieved a draw Then that player that lost their last battle is the defender and their opponent is the attacker In any other circumstances you roll off and choose great cool Again, so you can link these together in a very logical way And even if you're not playing with the exact related stuff like oh, we don't have you know We both won our last game cool. Okay. We just roll off to determine who's attacker defender now. Yeah easy All right, and then as you said yes in this one the invasion the attacker must take the first turn in the first battle round right so Yep um I like uh, I I don't I like this deployment by the way. I like the box-to-box deployment um So that's cool. Um, I it's a 12 inch Bubble that comes out from that corner to corner as opposed to as I find kind of annoying Because it's easy to it's easy to measure like when you have a single point that you're measuring from 12 inches Rather than like a bunch of points the stair steps. I hate the touching stair steps That is the worst the box-to-box. I don't mind. Um, because you're speaking of that the trap Okay, sure Like you're talking about the stair steps that you hate. Yes So well, um You know the invasion itself like yeah, all of these by the way We should state have different victory conditions as well Um, like what it takes to achieve a major victory is often different Than the normal game, which I also appreciate like you're trying to do Something as opposed to whole objectives, right? Right exactly. Yeah, because you'll notice there are no objectives on these Missions you're just trying to do other things right um, like in this case you're trying to occupy and repel and um You know, you can like your dominant world or the attacker gets to issue a command once for free just fun little stuff Right um, and whereas the defender gets to um gets to play with their faction terrain Right. Yep, because normally like the attacker doesn't get their faction terrain basically Uh, and but if you don't have faction terrain You just get to pick a terrain feature and pick one scenery rule from the thawndiomus just drain table to apply it to So cool, which is awesome. It is awesome Uh, because you get to choose the battleground. So just neat interesting little benefits for both sides Yeah, I love this mixing up this asymmetrical exploration of scenarios Yep, you're like, oh idk. You don't need your boats anymore. I'm sorry Sure absolutely Uh, okay from the invasion that leads into whoops into the prize Um So word has reached the commanders that hidden amidst a set of ancient ruins is a powerful relic from the age of myth Two armies race to be the one to secure for themselves. This one has a wild deployment map man This is crazy. And yet again, we have the whole who won last time to determine attack or defender or else roll-off situation once again the attacker takes the first turn Um, once again, we have no objectives Right and instead what we're trying to do is discover the relic Uh, that's what we're trying to do. That's the point So after deciding who has priority at the start of each battle round The loser of the priority roll picks one relic site and rolls a die If the score is higher than the number of the current battle round that terrain feature is no longer a relic site Uh, if the score is equal to or less than the number of the current battle round The relic is hidden in that terrain feature and all of the terrain features are no longer relic sites If there's only one relic site left the relic is automatically hidden in that terrain feature Right and how do you win? Uh You control the terrain feature. That's the relic site right because that means you get that you get the magic gubbins So good cool Uh, this one then leads into the trap with the ancient relic in their possession The victors are intent on returning to their homeland of their prize unaware that they're heading into a trap Yeah, boy. You want to talk about an unequal territory? Whoa Okay. Yeah, this this map is crazy Right So, uh, yep Yep Um, the attacker could get gets a universal artifact of power for a hero in the army like a bonus one because that's your artifact That's what you got Which is cool And and you can give the artifact to a hero that already has an artifact Yes, yes, you can't um And so basically like the attacker chooses, uh, which long edge of the battlefield is the northern edge The attacker sets up their army first wholly within their territory The attacker cannot set up units and reserved in the ambusher, which is the big blue territory Sets up each unit in their army either wholly within their territory and more than 12 inches away from all enemy units Or wholly within their territory wholly on a terrain feature and more than three inches from all enemy units Um, and the ambusher decides who has the first turn um Yeah, and you can actually pass your artifact around the relic around like it can go to other people If they if you if your hero dies and your other heroes, which school they can pick up the magic sword Like dude with the magic sword died pick up the magic sword. It's great. Well, a lot of arcane tomes being passed around I have talked about KO Struggling with scenarios. Sure. This is not one of them. Oh, no. Yeah, this is a great one for them. They're like You're like, we're gonna go over this side of the battle. Come get us. Yeah Yeah, exactly Uh, yeah, and so the goal is to just like have a hero still in possession of the relic Again, these are very unusual goals for how you determine victory. Yeah, which is fun. Yeah Yeah, you're not tracking a bunch of different victory points and stuff So for those that those that uh, see this and get frustrated with like the inconsistency or the asymmetrical major Um, I love it because what it does is like some armies have strengths that are not quantifiable Sure Right like the KO. They're just supreme mobility. Like they just don't do well on objective holding scenarios And so this mix of scenarios actually allows them to to perform In a way that like they just don't and like yes, this scenario they perform really well But that doesn't mean they do it for the whole battle pack, right? um, and so I love that um That they're willing to explore and push into other design spaces um for the some of these armies and I would argue that like In my mind that is That's ideal Because what I don't want and what I hate is when we quote-unquote solve the meta Where we look at the current set of scenarios And we go Okay, these are the top three armies So if you want to podium, this is what you need to run one of these or something The strongest chance of but yes, yeah, you're strongest chance of or A meta buster that looks at the meta and says okay Well in response to these things being strong try to play one of these counter meta things to get up to top tables So then bust out of those. Um, and I just love this which is like now in a different game Like what you have like if you're if you come with only those other scenarios in mind These say not we're doing something different here. Yeah Which I love it it does it's not good for statistics if you're trying to like Quantify and um narrow down Performance because like this is going to throw all of that into you know wild you know Unpredictability, but I love the variation Because to me what it does is it ends up highlighting the performance of generals and not the performance of armies. Sure One of the things that and then by the way, this all ends and cut off the head where you're trying to kill generals That's kind of it's that's the idea right right pretty straightforward Again, we we reintroduce some very fun things like the defender gets faction terrain And uh The like the opposing player can steal the relic which is super fun, right? Yeah So if you have a hero go up and slay their enemy hero in melee Then they get to pick up the magic sword or the arcane tome or whatever Yep, it's a lot of cool stuff. Um, this uses the tetris piece deployment that I that tyler was the first person I saw use that I really like um extending out the extra square On what is the otherwise thing actually is really interesting like that it doesn't seem like it would be that big of a change But man, does it change your feel during deployment? Um, is everything's 12 inches? like from the Yeah, like just having the extra long piece go up. It can be either either way or 11 Like tyler random up the short side. They're doing it down the long side But nonetheless like when you put somebody out on that limb They feel way out there And then your opponent now feels like they need to counter deploy against that or something Yeah, it's just it's just interesting how it how it works out I like the tetris piece deployment I hope they actually use this deployment model In the next ghp because I do think that's perfectly valid a perfectly valid sort of deployment model Well, and it raises the question like are we going to move towards something like this in the next ghp? No, I think they'll keep the ghp Here's my answer to that. I I'm glad you raised that point. Yeah Because here is my answer to that No But you think it'll stay like generic vanilla hold hold points on the battle because that's what it's meant to be Yes But this is the warhammer. They want us to play Yes Okay, to them. This is platonic warhammer like to the people who are in the studio Some part of them believes Like we're all like if you're if you're playing at a ghp standard tournament This sounds harsher than it is. I don't mean this like you're playing warhammer wrong Right what they want it to be Is this engaging ongoing story driven thing where you're you're behind your army and you're doing stuff And it's evolving and sometimes things are asymmetrical and sometimes things are asymmetrical and And it's just like it's part of this larger engaging experience that goes beyond The two and a half three hours you're sitting at the table for that game Right, right. This is what like this is the experience that they see as the ideal experience of warhammer Yeah, I mean it doesn't mean that our the ghp version is bad. It's let's not be so So, you know simplistic with it Right, but I think this is the warhammer that they See as the sort of platonic form That's that's my answer Yeah, and what I would say is that like if somebody questions whether this is their platonic version I think you can just look back to like the end times Sure, sure Like what these read like Are the narrative series of encounters from the end times Yeah, I mean this is not meant to be an every event sure, right But what I'm saying is is that we've like it's We shouldn't be surprised they continue to do this Sure In multiple books. This is not just a one-off here right is if you look at the last eight to ten years That's what they've just been doing But I do think this is the best form of it. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah, I don't want to I don't want to dismiss that at all But I'm just pointing out that like This is not the this is not the exception. This is actually the norm Yeah If you look at the every every scenario battle plan that they've ever published 90 of them Sit in this style of play Of asymmetry and all that and only the ghbs are the ghb group books are the Assistant symmetrical like hyper symmetrical stuff. Sure But which is fair by the way like I'm glad that stuff exists because it needs sure This isn't good for like standard competitive event warhammer. It's just not Okay, I agree. Like I'm not saying you couldn't do a fun competitive event around these these battle plans You certainly could but you need to publish them beforehand and there's a whole different set of expectations And you have to understand that it's going to be kind of a wacky scenario like situation, right? Yeah, like this would be great like 3 000 points You're going to that event because that's the different experience you want, right? Sure. It's important to have The stock experience as well, which is what the ghb and those like and those hopefully well balanced Uh more generic battle plans provide they're good for events They can be easy to lift and shift for people to drop into events for people to have in their common lexicon That's good. Like it's not bad at all I want to really get my opinion completely chiseled in stone here. Okay Those are good and should always exist Am I being clear enough? No, certainly certainly But like I think it's also good to have rules like this that that are allow people to do Different types of events or have different experiences or play the game in a different way or run their event differently. Whatever Yep, this is great. And and battle packs are honestly the the method that I don't that you know in thinking about this what occurred to me tom is They haven't even begun to plumb. What's possible with the battle pack technology. I agree. I agree We're like at the beginning of that journey. That's what this locked in my mind. That was the sort of second tenny dropping, right? Was first off. I went. Oh, I get it. These are super valuable And then the second thing I realized was oh, wait a minute. We can do a lot more here Yeah, like the tech here runs deep. Yeah Yes, exactly Now We just studio. This is for you This is just for you gw studio Thanks. First of all, thanks for making it so far in the show. I hope you all hit like yes, exactly Uh explore that design space. Yeah. Yeah, yeah do it. Yeah, like let's see more of this man. Like again The when it comes down to it I really mean this My only problem with this book Is that the is the incarnate? The rules are overwrought I don't like that. He's just this generic thing that's floating out there That we're suddenly gonna have to all know the rules for and we'll just start showing up in armies He may be too strong. He may not I don't know But even if he's not we run a high risk of one of them in the future being too strong Right like this guy this concept is super risky Yes, okay, which which is good to like there's part of that that is good design, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, like they should be pushing the the envelope in that sense Sure I just wish that they had sectioned these in that they had the tech it was right there and they they they Lump the incarnate in with the actual pack itself. Yeah, which by the way, we are an orata away from that Yeah, sure But gets eroded it could just be a add the line incarnates can you know can you know? Uh, when you play this battle pack incarnates can be included sure like the The the problem is I think they choked up on the swing Because or they they they checked their swing. I should say that's right. That's right thing to say Because they were afraid that then people wouldn't care or be interested in the incarnates, right? Which I I get but you know as as uh assistant re or not rest Yeah, assistant ref made a comment Like it feels like it was the marketer's discussion to pull this out of this this pocket that they carved out And make it general. Yeah Yeah When it feels like it should have just been here in the pocket like leave it in the pocket In the narrative battle pack you can use incarnates in this and the strife of thandia battle pack You can use incarnates like move it from a top level rule to a sub level rule. That's it. Right, right, right um, and then And then it then yeah, and then it would have written itself and it would have governed itself Right because what would happen is like if it's too strong of a thing then uh, then Uh, to is just don't use the bat this battle pack. Correct Correct. Yeah Yeah So You know, uh, yes, that is true. They could easily add a battle pack rule that excludes incarnates the same way like we could see the ghb battle pack in Uh, in this year say you cannot use incarnates. I doubt that Because exclusion that seems the opposite direction of where we're going, right? um, you know But here we are okay Tom Would you like to see the next incarnate? Uh, sure. I disagree with you, but continue. Okay He's right there He's this thing It's this spider hand thing That's the next incarnate I was I was staring at the book prepping for this show Okay, yeah, like I was just sitting here staring at it and I realized oh, yeah, this is the guy we got Right like this is him This is a different thing Like you don't think that that's the dragon claw like a stylistic dragon claw. No, I think that's the other one I think he's a big hand a big spider hand thing I don't know Like I could buy that if the if the stuff around the hand was like green energy or blue energy I think that that hand is part of the Part of the gir because of the fire because the continuity between the energy. That's why I'm going to say that I think you're wrong Okay, that's fair Uh, all I'm saying is That's the one that feels like it to me. He's that guy But that's my guess There you go. We'll see if I'm right That's my big swing at the end for fun. I think I think you're wrong, but But I appreciate You're trying Sure, I think it I think it's just another incarnate back there in the background if he's in the background Because his hand far away a little fire in it and this guy's like roaring at him. Yeah. Yeah at the magic hand He's like, I don't have hands. I hate you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay sure Yeah, I don't buy that I appreciate your depth though Yeah, and by the way as somebody said there are hands on the kit itself That's okay. That's fine Sure Uh, all right anything else we want to leave behind here Uh with our final thoughts on season of war thundia So the the our desire to do the show had nothing to do with trying to sell anybody on this product No It's obviously not. I don't care. Uh, we don't care, but I love this product. Yeah um I'm I'm we're doing a local thing with, you know, my kids and some friends and stuff like that and it's going to be great And if anybody has ever wanted to branch out like this is the perfect like bundle of things that have all come together You know, we have our own set of battle packs and stuff like that. We have the envelope of apotheosis we have um The path to glory rule specific for it And you have a battle box now with terrain with the perfect, you know board size for path to glory Um, this is it's like in toe toe. This is it um, so, uh I'm gonna do it and I would encourage you all to do it Yeah, so for those that have been been looking for the right motivation to me this whole thing like Because of how this all bundles together. It was just per it was too perfect for me not to go. We're doing this, right? so yep Cool. All right. Very good. Well There you go. That's season of war. Thandia Um a good book with a bad terrain pack. I would argue but or a bad release strategy for the incarnate But that's a bad release strategy. I will agree with that. Um, yeah, the train pack is not bad. You're right It's a bad release strategy. That's we should say right right because I think the box is okay I do. I think it's a good value too. I hate to say it 130 30 mil round base model. You know what that is. That's like 130 dollars Like that's the normal Yeah, like that's the normal kit price you're looking at so um To get a terrain, you know eight pieces of terrain or however much Or you know four solid five whatever it is six and then two boards which they value clearly at 60 bucks. It's a good deal All right. Well, we'll leave that to the audience to decide but the book in my opinion Is is an absolute home run like this is how I want to see these things done. Yeah It's great. My only slight issue is the incarnate stuff for reasons we talked about but overall Great job. Good. Like the book success continues where we're 3.0 has brought good books and this is one of them Uh, you missed it. Paul. I'm arguing. This is not his hand. I'm arguing. This is a big spider incarnate thing back here That's what I'm saying. Take it or swing. That's what I say Everybody says his claw. I disagree. I think it's a thing um but Either way give it a like Give it a like if you think I'm a lunatic and that's obviously his claw Uh subscribe if you haven't already don't forget. We've got a patreon focused on helping you Uh with your hobby focused on review and feedback. That's linked down below if you want to support the channel Uh, but thank you so much everybody. Appreciate you watching so much. I hope you enjoyed this Uh, tom, thanks brother much appreciated as always Uh, we will be back of course Thank you so much for watching as always We'll see you next wednesday