 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. They just worked out that I was with all these really quite bad people. You know, but I didn't know they were bad at the beginning. Was that an attraction for you because you were brought up well? They must have been? I don't know why. Why on earth was I? I was the spoke little brat of the family as well. So why did I do that? But I did, so that's just how it is. That's the way it went. And then little did I know was going to end up marrying Mick. One of the worst ones of them all. I was like, oh my God. So everybody, obviously Charlie's changed his name so many times. Charlie's over the old Charlie Bronson, but his real name's what Michael. I know him as Michael Peter. I don't know him as Charlie Salvador or Bronson really. It's Michael Peter. That's why I call him Mick. I mean, I can't call him Charlie because he's not Charlie to me. He's Mick. But this seven years, it was awful. He got seven years for one crime, seven years for another one, seven years for another one. That was 21. And then he got four years. Then I think it was three years and another one year. All these different crimes, I just didn't know what was going on. I didn't know anything about it. Because he never used to tell me anything at all about going to court, but it was horrendous. It was the most horrible thing ever. It was still lovely towards us and everything. But I mean, I'd go to see him with Mike and he'd have all these bruises all over his face. And he used to say, oh, it's okay. Don't worry, it's nothing. I've just banged my head or I've just done this. It was just, it was like all the time. And I thought he's never going to get out of here. He keeps fighting. And oh, it's horrible. It's a horrible thing to see, you know, because you've got no control over it. I mean, he's your husband and the dad of your son. But what can you do? What's he doing? He's not murdered anyone. He's not a child killer. He's not a pedophile. He's not a rapist. His crime, people think he is a murderer. People have said to me, excuse me. People have actually said to me, well, he's a murderer, isn't he? That's why he's in prison. He's in prison because he's fought the system and they don't want to release him. Boom, we're on. And today's guest, we've got Irene Dunro. Hi, that's me. Hi. Good to have you on. Hello. Where do I look for these things? You look good. You look great. Oh, yeah. Hi. Charlie Bronson's ex-wife. First wife. First wife, ex-wife. You've just released about the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth. We'll leave in the link in the description to get it. A lot of photos. A lot of stories in there about Charlie on told stories. Yeah. How's life? Definitely. Life is lovely at the moment. I'm being interviewed by you for this podcast. I didn't know what a podcast was until I've been looking it up on the internet. Say, what's a podcast? But I'm not into internet because, you know, we didn't have things like that when I was young. But Mick did for me last night and said, oh, he said, you've got so many viewers and everything. Can you sell your book and everything? You need to get out there and sell your book. He's so proud of me because he said it's a fabulous book. He said it's sad, which it is. It's really sad and places, but it's dead funny as well. Because I am a bit funny, really. I'm that sort of person, a bit weird in a way. You know, I have all the girls that were laughing their heads off at me all the time. But you've got to be humor into things, haven't you? I mean, I do it and I don't mean to do it. It's just my voice comes out weird. So Charlie's been in for what nearly over 45 years and you're still in contact? Oh, yeah. Well, we only got in contact after 26 years because a friend of his, Ray Williams, wanted Mike to get in touch with his dad. He thought it'd be a nice surprise, which they did do. And that was all that. But after that, after the 26 years, Mick used to send me cards or a letter in with Mike's letter. You know, he always used to ask about how I was and stuff like that. So that was good. Yeah. So you've got a son with Charlie. How old is he now? Michael. He's 50, just 10, 50. I've just turned 17 the other day. And Mick's, Mike, Mike is 50. You look great for 70. Soon I'll be 80. So that's how long you've known Charlie in over 50 years? Yeah, nearly 50 years. Yeah. But you know what? It's only like yesterday. I mean, when you have ex-husbands or ex-boyfriends, when you're with them, you're thinking, God, it's so long ago. And it's not there in your face. But with Mick, it's in my face all the time. It's weird. It's really, really weird. He's just there in my face. I don't know if it's because we never actually split up. Do you know what I mean? When you get divorced or whatever, you finish with your husband, don't you? That sort of thing or your ex-partners. But with Mick, we've never actually split up. He was just like taken away. And I don't know if that's it, but it's just like yesterday. I mean, I was coming home from work the other day on the bus. And I was just looking through the window. We stopped at this bus stop so the driver could just swap drivers. And I was just looking out the window and suddenly I felt sick as a dog. I felt all this stuff come all over me. And I felt all panicky and stressed. And I just felt as if I was in Chester Crown Court. This was only the other day. And Mick was getting sentenced. You still get that feeling. It's just all over you. It's horrible. You never get rid of it. Before we get into you and the childhood stuff, let's go back to the start where you grew up and how your life began. Yeah. Well, I lived in Little Neston, not far away from here. Mum and Dad were quite well to do. Sort of think. And Dad built a lovely, great big house as that one there. But he was very, very strict. And I was too young because I had two older sisters and an older brother. And Pauline and Janet, who are my older sisters, were really, really posh. And they used to get all these posh boys and all their boyfriends were loaded, had big posh cars and everything. And they used to have brothers who were about my age. And the parents used to have, like, ponds in the garden. They used to skate over them in the winter. And they always used to want me to go with them to meet all these younger boys, the younger brothers. I was never interested. Do you want me to go back a bit further than this one? Just do whatever you want. Yeah. Come on, you're gorgeous, finish that story. Oh, yeah. So I go backwards and forwards. That's me. I get all mixed up in my words. But when I was young, mum and dad, well, not mum, but dad came from a farm. They had a farm that's like seven brothers and one sister who I'm named after. Her name was Irene as well, Irene Kelsey. She actually went to a funeral. And I thought it was my funeral because it was like she was born, Irene Kelsey and all that. But they had this lovely farm we thought enough for her to still have. But then the war started, so they all went away to war. And then my older uncle, Uncle Charlie, he stayed and took over the farm to keep all the wheat going and corn going. And then after the war finished, one of my uncles, Uncle Ernie, came back to live on the farm. But he fell out with my auntie, Aunty Nora. So he turned to live in this little tiny shed that was on the farm. But he became a gunsmith. And he was a really famous gunsmith because he used to sell these guns to Sean Connery. And do you know that racing driver, that dead famous racing car driver? He sold all the guns to all those sorts of people. Film stars, celebrities, and the Toffs and everything. And they used to go like clag-pitching shooting. Is that something? Well, I think it was. I hope it was for... I don't know if he's selling it for otherwise. I hope so. But the whole shed was lined with all these really expensive guns. But he was a gunsmith. But in the end, he just lived in that shed. He had made a bed in there. He was just rounded by his guns, but he was very eccentric. So that was the source of beginning. But all our family were dead eccentric anyway, I'm afraid. So what were you like at school? Were you a quiet kid or shy? I was dead shy. I was a goody-goody. Very, very good. But we had this thing at school that we had to start learning to do knitting on four needles. This isn't a primary school. I couldn't do it. We had to bit this bloody horrible red mittens on four needles. But I don't know why. I just couldn't do it. So I never got it done. So the teacher always used to shout at me, Irene, Irene, bring your knitting in. Do that. And I used to pretend I'd forgotten it. So I'm so sorry I forgot this again. But in the end, I had to bring it in. And I used to sew the needles, and we had needle craft, fed all the needles and do the sewing for all my friends. And they used to do a bit of knitting for me. But then I had to stand outside the headmaster's office one of those days because I never took them in. I just refused to take them in. So I got shouted at. Standing outside the headmaster's office for not taking my knitting in. But they never got finished. I hated that. That was the only time I got shouted at. So being a kid then, growing up in a good environment, being a little good at two shows, what was the attraction to Charlie when you first met him? Oh well, it's funny because I said I had older sisters and older brothers and they all really looked after me. And I was brought up really, you know, really, really well sort of thing. So I started to go out with my friend when I was about 14, 15, Lynn Whitby. Oh, she was lovely. We used to go to Liverpool for Chinese. We thought the B's and E's. We used to wear the latest clothes and everything. And that was fabulous. And then a couple years after, I started to go out and about with a couple of other friends that used to like to go to Liverpool, right? And that's when we started to where sort of stay out a bit later and things like that. And it wasn't such a goody-goody gun shoes. And every time we met, you know, different places on the night out, they would offer to bring us home. They had lovely cars, fabulous cars, all lovely posh cars, Jags and all the different things. And they used to take us home, drop us off. There was only afterwards that I found out that they were all stolen. All these cars, all these blokes were like, right, even though they might look lovely and polite and everything. But they were like, what do you call them? They used to pinch cars and everything and wherever. But anyway, I was thinking, oh my God, this isn't very good, is it? Going this way. And then I went to a club with my other friends in New Brighton, I can't remember what it's called now. And I met this man. He was really dead handsome. He was gorgeous on his friends and his girlfriend who was pregnant. And I started to go out with him. And one of his friends came up to me one night when he was at the bar and said, Irene, I think you're far too good for him. He's in an ounce of Bostel and things like that. So I said, oh no, it doesn't matter. Don't worry, I didn't even know what Bostel was. So I started to go out with him. And then he went back to Bostel again. And he wrote me a letter and Mum found it in my drawer and she went mad because Mum and Dad were so strict. You see, all my older sisters were into the posh and really everything. I just went the opposite way. Bad boy. Yeah, I would not go skating. I would not go playing tennis at the tennis club. I just wanted to do my own thing. And they just worked out that it was if all these really quite bad people, you know, but I didn't know they were bad at the beginning. Was that an attraction for you because you were brought up well? It must have been. I don't know why. Why on earth was that? I was to sport a little bit of the family as well. So why did I do that? That's what I did. So that's just how it is. That's the way it went. And then little did I know was going to end up married Mick. One of the worst ones of them all. So, oh my God. So how did you meet? Well, one of my friends, Lynn Whitby, an old school friend, not my other friends, one of the old school friends, there was this group playing at this pub in Great Sutton called The Bull. And it was all live music. And she had no one to go with. So I said, okay then, I'll come with you as a favour. So I went with that. Soon Great Sutton, just before the roundabout, Ben just sat down and the group started to play. And then next thing, two minutes after that, these two men came in, John and Mick. It was John and Mick. They both had dressed up in those days. You know, you wore suits and ties or crevettes and little pockets in. And then they came in and me and Linda saw them. We both went like that and looked at them and they both looked at us as they walked past to go to the bar. And then they went to the bar and they were staring at us. And I was saying, Linda, Linda, I like that man there. And they said, oh yes, I like the other one as well and all that sort of thing. And the next thing, they just came over to us. They had even bought a drink. They just went to the bar and they just got some and they came over and said, oh, would you two young girls would like a drink or something? So I said, oh yeah, please, could I have a cherry bean cider? And I don't know what Linda had. Said they went back and bought us our drinks. And that's how he met them and just came over. But I really fancied Mick. But Linda actually married John as well. But they did get divorced not long afterwards. But it was weird. But they were both really good looking. So obviously Charlie's changed his name so many times. Charlie's over though. Charlie Bronson. But his real name is what? Michael. I don't know him as Charlie Salvatore or Bronson really. It's Michael Pete. That's why I call him Mick. I mean, I can't call him Charlie because he's not Charlie to me. He's Mick. Yeah. So what was the relationship? How did it start? Was it nice or was it madness? Oh yeah, he was a gentleman. He was always a gentleman. Honestly, he was so polite. I mean, I don't think you get it nowadays. You used to open the car doors. He would never ever spare in front of me. And if somebody started swearing, if you were out in a club or a pub or something and they could hear Ray's voices and they were swearing, he would just go to them politely. He wouldn't be nasty to say, can you stop, just watch your language just in front of my girlfriend, would you please? You know, he was always like that. You know, I could always depend on Mick then in those days. He was really, really, I just felt safe with him. Was there ever any telltale scenes that it was, it was a mad? Pardon? Was there ever any telltale scenes that it was mad then? No. You might never see that anywhere. You might never see it. It was a mad, but obviously with the stories you hear and the things that he's done, it is mad. Yeah, no. Prisons done that to him. Prisons turned. He wasn't like that at all. He was not at all. But he used to take after we had a night out with some. He always used to go in for some, most of the time with John and Linda. But sometimes we used to go on our own but we got a bit closer and sort of thing. And then he used to take me to this place in Elspay Pools. And that is probably one of the roughest places ever. But it was by the docks. And apparently there's, well it was, there was a lovely Chinese restaurant and this sort of part here. And then if you sort of walked in the back, you went up like a dark alley, but it was still in the room sort of thing. And it was like a bar that used to stay open for the sailors all night long. And then if you turned right, you know, left and went up the stairs. You had to go right the stairs quite a long way. Then you get the lose and everything. But so because of that, we used to have our foods and everything. And then the fight would always break out. It was always, you know, brawling would start about one o'clock or something. So that's why you eat so fast. Because everybody says to me, for God's sake, slow down. Why are you eating? No one's going to take your food off you. But as soon as we'd order a meal, right, we never have a starter. I always used to have king prawn fried rice. It was the best Chinese restaurant ever. I'm not joking. It was fab. And as soon as it come, I'll go eat it there fast and everything. And then you can guarantee within about 20 minutes, half an hour of us having our food, there'd be something going on or somebody would cook at some point would come over to Mick and whisper in his ear. And then Mick would get up and say, oh, sorry, Irene. I'm just going to book you, get so-and-so to book you a taxi now to go home. A fight just started in the back. And that's what they used to do. It was the 60s or was it the 70s or wherever. But that's what they used to do. They used to just do it for like, it's the mods and the rockers. The mods used to fight the rockers, but it wasn't any rockers and mods in Elthamore Port. It was just the sailors. They'd all get pissed or wherever. But that's what they used to do. They used to do sports, but nobody ever got killed or stabbed or people drunk off their heads or what's that word, drugged up or anything. Nobody, they might have had a broken nose and things like that, but that's about it. That's all that would have happened to them. But Mick would always, if there was like two people against one man, Mick would go, even though he didn't know the man who would go and leave and it out, that's what it was. It was just a bit of sport. Our food, that was the end of the night. Even though I hadn't finished my food and I'd always looked around and went in the taxi and I'd seen Mick standing at the bottom, well, lying down underneath about 20 men on top of him and they were all fighting each other. That was always my last memory of Mick. I'll always remember, it was just like yesterday, sitting in the taxi. I was used to sitting in the back of the taxi and I used to look around and I'd see all these bloody fists and everything and there was a bit of mixed clothes sticking out. There was always a big gang of them right on top of each other, all fighting. Did they like fighting? Yeah, but that's what it was in them days, but it wasn't like killing or stabbing. It was just fun. It was sport. But did you never think, what am I doing here? Or was it again an action to you? My main thought at the time was, bloody hell, I just want to finish my bloody food. You know, under like a pudding after it instead of just rushing, but I always had to eat, that's why you eat so fast. Because since I go in there, I know something would kick off later on because it was like late night opening and I've put all the sailors used to go there and whatever, they'd all be drunk and everything. So you sent me food dead fast and like that. How was Charlie when you were with like a father and man trying to speak to you or anything? Was it a jealous type or was it? Oh God, yeah, it was so possessive. Yeah, very, very, very possessive. Oh God, my God, he was dead possessive. And when we got married, I used to be dead trendy and used to wear like suede shorts and big long boots and you know, all matching and everything like that. And he liked all that. But since we got married, he said, right, I already said we're married now. You can't wear all those sort of clothes. He hated me wearing, even if I just never used to wear makeup anyway in those days. But if I just wore some beads, can remember beads were the fashion, you know, great big beads with the fashion. I've still got them beads with the fashion those days. You'd go mad, absolutely mad. He said, you're married woman now. You can't wear things like that. You're married to me. You must not wear things like that anymore. And remember one day, I think it was my 21st, we were going to go for this lovely meal. So he didn't, he didn't take his car. We walked up and remember we had to go past this news agent, right? On the Chester High Road. Well, not this Chester High Road, another one towards like, else people don't know what that's called. But it's like a big, long main road. And he went in to get some ciggies. And when he came out, a car had gone past with a man in it. And he'd bib me. And then Mick came running out for that cigarette. Who's that? Who's that? Who's that? Who's bibbing you? He must have made you to bib you. And he took me home. He took me, he wouldn't take me out. He said, you must know that man. He took me straight home. And I was so bloody annoyed that I actually went home. And he came in with me and he shut the door. And then he went out and I looked through the window. And there he was walking up the road. I think that was the time I got all this clothes and his suits. And just threw him out of the bedroom window after him. Because he was really particular about his clothes and his suits. He had to look dead smart and, you know, really, really dead smart. So I threw them all out of the window. I'm thinking, oh, he's going to come back now because he loves his suits. But he didn't come back. He didn't come back to the following day. But I did notice when I got up, all the suits, they're all been cleared up. And he took them to the cleaners. When did you get married? How far into your relationship? Well, we got married when I was 19. And Mick was, well, Mick was 19. Even though he thinks he's younger than I am. Even though he thinks he's younger than me. He thinks he's my toy boy, God knows. Yeah, he really does. He really does think but he's not. He's actually older than me. But we were both 19. But I moved into a flat because I had a party at my mum and dad's house. Mum and dad went away to Wales for the weekend. And my older brother organised this big party in mum and dad's house. And he had all his friends. And they were all, I don't know what they were doing. But they were like drinking this and drinking that and drinking that. They took over the whole house. They had all the food that mum had got me in the cupboards. And they were cooking it in this big assay. Mum had a big assay. The cooking in there, it was all ruined. They broke cupboards. The next door neighbours phoned the police because of all the noise and everything. Everybody was in bed with all the people. It was all going on and everything. So I phoned Mick. I said, it's all going on here. Come and rescue me. So Mick took me out. He came pick me up and he just took me away. Then when everybody had gone, he stayed with me for a few days. But mum and dad sort of threw me out then. What did your mum and dad think of him? They went too keen on Mick. Why? I don't really know. I really don't know. They never actually said. But I just, I don't know. They went too keen. I think dad might have had, he's a bit of a psychic here like me. I think he might have had an instinct to, because I was like the baby of the family. I mean, I was still called the baby of the family when I was 50. I mean, dad used to say, oh, it's a baby coming. You know, so... Seeing the film, when he does the robbery, does he not rob jewelry? Is that jewelry for you? No, no, he never did anything like that. To be honest, I never knew that he is ever, whatever he did, he kept it all well away from me. He never used to say to me, oh, I'm going to go and bergle somewhere today and go and rob this. It was all completely, you know, nothing at all. But when I was, when I moved to live in this flat with my friend Linda, who's going out with John, that's when Mick started to stay more often with me. And that's how we got closer and closer. That's the first time I've sat with him, actually. And it's horrified. Why? Because he was so big and wherever. And I was so innocent. But anyway, that's the end of the story about that. We'll get about that. But I, you know, that was it. He used to be there. You know, and again, he used to disappear when he's supposed to be staying with me. I mean, he'd get up at like two o'clock in the morning and disappear. Or he'd say, oh, just going out for a pint. And then he'd go out. But he wouldn't come back till like two days and he'd have all these bruises all over his face. You know, and I'd say, oh my God, what's happened? He'll say, oh, nothing. Or just had to hangover. And I just, I just went back to him and dad saw something. There's one point during this time before we got married that there's something big going on. Because John was out going out with his girlfriend. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this. I don't get, you know, any prison or anything. I don't get, I couldn't cope in prison. I'm telling you that now. What was the relationship like for the four or five years you were with each other? Was it love or was it anger? Before what? The four years. Was it four years before he went to prison? Oh, yeah. Oh, no. He was fab. As I say, he was so gentlemanly and everything. He was lovely. He used to look after me and he loved Mike and everything. Actually, when Mike was got born, was in a classroom hospital, I was getting all the pains and everything. It was all panicking and everything. And this one said, do you better phone an ambulance and take care of him rather than driver there? So he got an ambulance and he came with me. And then in those days, she weren't allowed to be together when you, you know, you had had a baby or anything. So he had to sit outside the room. So he was waiting outside the room and he must have waited about 24 hours. And I could hear him saying, is she all right? Is she all right? But he just wasn't allowed in. Anyway, when Mike was eventually born, he came in and he was so proud. But then he had to walk all the way back from Clatterbidge, which is in Bebbington, to Ellesmere Port, because he had no shoes on, nothing on. He had no money and he just had to walk there, footed all the way home with no money or anything because he was in panic. So he just went, you know, just... So when did he get, was it seven years ago when you were married to him? His first sentence, well, actually it was, Crown Court was awful. It was the same Crown Court that Myra Hindley and Ian Brady were in. I was thinking, and the judge had to wig on and I was thinking, what the hell's Mike doing in here? I always had a thing about courts because Mike has been back with them forwards a few times before this. You know, things he's done in, you know, in the past. And I remember him going to court and thinking, oh my God, is he going to come home today? Is he going to come home today or not or whatever? What's going to happen? It was horrible, really, really horrible. And he used to say to me, oh no, the judge was really nice today. He was in a good mood, so he let me off today. Now, any other time he said, if the judge had been in a bad mood, he'd say, no, you're going to go to prison because that's how it is. It doesn't depend on the sentence. Apparently this is true. If the judge is in a really, really bad mood, he's going to say, oh well, go off, piss off, go off, go off to prison or whatever. But if he's in a good mood, he's not going to say that. And that's what happened to Mike. But this seven years, it was awful. He got seven years for one crime seven years for another one, seven years for another one. That was 21. And then he got four years. Then I think it was three years and another one year for all these different crimes. I just didn't know what was going on. I didn't know anything about it because he never used to tell me anything at all about going to court, but it was horrendous. It was the most horrible thing ever. Why do you think you never told you? Well, he never told me anything like that. What were you charged with? It was robbing this newest agent from Drobbery. But it was actually through his friends who's actually done it all. He just went along with them. And John was also asked to go along as well to do it. But he said, no, you've got seven pounds. But I mean, it wasn't like the time when people get killed and loads of people get fettled and all that and mask. It wasn't like that at all. But he got seven years for that. And he's came to not be no sense, has he? No, no. There's three people that did it all, planned it all. They got out after two years and mixed it in there. But then Mick had all the Adidon pressure, Adidon, because he was only young then. These were a lot older, these men. You know, he was attacked with a glass. He's been attacked with everything. It's been horrendous. Or he's been made to dress up as a woman with makeup all over his face and then get raped by all the men. What do you do? Would you like to pretend to be a woman and get raped by all the men just for a bit of peace? Or would you retaliate? Retaliate? Yeah. So if you retaliate, he was always the one that got all the blame because he always got the one up on them. So what was happening? Who was dressing? Well, he didn't. But that's what it was like in prison. He had all sorts of horrendous things going on. Because he used to write to me and tell me what's happened. It was horrendous. And he had to stick up for himself. That's why he made himself strong. He even had one of the prison governors and one of the prisons he was in taunting him outside his cell. Oh, I've got you back now, Mickey. He said, I've got you back now. I'm going to make your life hell. You don't know half of what's gone on. It's horrendous. What? So was he getting bullied at the start, Charlie? Well, I know he was getting about 20 prison officers beating him to a pulp every now and again. He used to call them the heavy gang. 20 is the time. Like Mick said, if you punch one person in prison, you get 20, 25 back. He was always the heavy gang. That's why I could never bear to watch his film because they actually sneak some footage out and you actually saw him and get it. And I don't know if it's a film or the documentary that we did. But some footage was sneaked out of one of the prisons. And you actually saw what went on. It was all, it was being filmed live. He had, I think it was being filmed and you saw them all pouncing on him. It was just a variable. Do you think then at the start he's been pushed to the edge where he's just snapped and then it reveals. Well, of course, yeah. We're rubbing the butter on himself and fighting over the prison guards, taking people hostage like, because the papers make out as if he's a madman. Yeah. Well, the papers do, yeah. And the prison do. But the person I'm going to turn around and say, oh, well, we did this or we did that. They just say the papers just stating Charles Bronson kicked off with this. He's taken people hostages or something. They don't say the real reason why or what's really went on. But one point, Mick was going to go to his dad's funeral. And the prison said, yes, you can go. He had his suit all ready. He was all dressed in his cell. If it's his dad or his brother, John, who died of cancer is one of them anyway. And he's all dressed to go. And then the more in the funeral, the, you know, after he got all ready and everything, they went in to say, oh, oh, you're not going to the funeral today. And that was one of the reasons why he kicked off. But they didn't report that in the paper. They just said Charles Bronson kicked off again. You see, the things they do to him, the doing things now to him, they're trying to, they're making his phone calls or they took, stopped all his phone calls. And now he can't leave messages or anything, even though he's paying to have the messages left and everything. Because that's what they do. They don't want him to get out. They just want to kick, keep him in there forever because he's fighting the system. What sort of stuff did they use to write to you to tell you what was going on in prison? Well, I used to hate those letters like one a week because some of me, I always used to call them like a good week or bad week. I used to dread it because one week it'd be lovely. A lovely letter, I love you. I love Mike and everything. I won't be long, I'll soon be coming out of here and everything really fabulous like that. And then the next week, you start getting this horrible feeling feeling sick before you'd opened it. You know, it was like, you know, something's happened, something's gone on. So he's not in this best and everything. And he's saying, sorry, Irene. I've lost so much remission. I had to go to a VC. Somebody came up to me and tried to stab me with a bit of glass or someone came to do this and someone that. So what am I supposed to do? I have to retaliate. I have to protect myself. And I'm the one that's getting more years added on. This went on and on and on. And then in the end, he started to write a letter to me saying, sorry, Irene, I'm getting more time added on. And that's when I thought, it's never going to get out. How long did you stick by him for? Well, not very good with years. I've had three different birthdays for God's sake. Terrible dates. Don't even know my own. But it was at that time you said, okay, I need a divorce here. That was actually mixed. There's actually said that. He said, look, he said, you're going to have to, Irene, he said, I'm never going to get out of here. And I knew he wasn't going to get out of there. And that she said, if you just carry on like this, you're going to end up in a Broadmoor or a mental hospital because you can't keep fighting everybody. You've got to stop. You've just got to do it. You know, let them bloody beat you up. Let them do whatever they want. Don't, don't fight them. And this was a time when he was covered in all these bruises and everything after one of our visits. So he'd been kicking off again there or something. And anyway, three years after he was moved to Broadmoor. Did you see the change in him before he went to prison to a few years after? Yeah. In what way? Yeah. Oh, he was, he was still lovely towards us and everything. But I mean, I'd go to see him with Mike, and he'd have all these bruises all over his face. And he used to say, oh, it's okay. Don't worry. It's nothing. I've just banged my head or I've just done this. But it was just, it was like all the time. And I thought it's never going to get out of there. He keeps fighting. And oh, it's horrible. It's a horrible thing to see, you know, because you've got no control over it. I mean, he's your husband and the dad of your son. But what can you do? You know, you can't stop it. You know, he's in there and if they're all going to beat him up or whatever, or he's going to retaliate, but he's not had a, he's had a horrendous time in there. What was it like at Broadmoor visiting? Oh, I never went to Broadmoor. And I couldn't, I went to Walton. I went to Walton to see him. And that was the, I think Walton was the first time I went to see him and went with his mum. And before he was sent to his property, he was on remand. And remember going in this, this like, it's like a cell. The waiting room was like a cell. There's all like, you know, like, and there were castles, there's all like big red bricks. And then there's just like carboards, seats, well, wooden seats, like benches. And I was sitting, I think, God, this is a horrible, horrible place. And then after that, we moved into this other room. And then we had to sit down these tables, this is more like a canteen. And then Mick was led out and he sat opposite us. And he said to me, Oh, would you like a cup of tea? And I said, Oh, I said, Oh, can you have tea in here? Because I love me cups of tea. I said, Oh, can you have actually have a cup of tea in here? He said, Yes, I'll go and get you. So he went and got me, me and his mum on from the thing, me from the thing. And I thought, Oh, prison's fine. Isn't it? It's great in here. You know, you only have to have a cup of tea because I was terrified when I walked in. It was horrendous. But then I thought, Oh, this is fine. You can have cups of tea. But then Mike used to run after it. When he walked out, crying, Daddy, Daddy, come back. And How hard does that take in your son to see his father in prison? Horrible. It's horrendous. Horrible. Especially when he runs after him crying and shouting, Daddy, Daddy, come back, come back. When he's led away. You can't do anything about it, can you? How did Charlotte deal with that? Well, he couldn't do anything about it. He was just, just taken out. How's it? Like, when did you really start to see the effects of his prison time? How many years then? The, the effect. Well, it was when he started to, just before he went to Broadmoor. I just knew it was never going to get out. I just knew it. Yeah. And even Mick said as well, even Mick said to me, look, I mean, he said, I am never going to get out of here. But when Mike was only a toddler before, he did this, the really big crime. Because as I say, I never knew anything about, I knew the crimes. Mike, I just picked Mike up from play school. And he was watching the telly in his little chair. I used to watch the kids programs. And the news came on about 12 o'clock. And Mick came home from work and he said, do you know what I read? And I said, what? He said, I'm going to be on that television one day. You're going to see me on that news. And I thought, ooh. And that came true as well. But as I say, Mick would never ever say anything to me about anything. I mean, when Mike was a baby, we used to walk all the way from Elfmere Port to Mum and Dad's house. And we used to pass these great big mansions that had big high walls. And Mick used to always push the pram because they had prows pushing the pram. And every now and again, we'd stop in these great big posh mansions and he'd climb up the wall and just look over. And I used to say to him, what are you doing, Mick? And he said, oh, I'm just looking at the gardens. He said, oh, I love the gardens in these lovely houses. He said, there's a lovely bush over there. It's got lovely red flowers on. And that's what I thought he was doing. But I realized now, well, years later, that he was looking to see if he could go and rob it, which I didn't know. He kept it all quiet. But before, just after he got married before he got sent down properly when I had Mike and everything, when we lived in that flat, him and John and his girlfriends were whispering all the time. There's something going on, definitely what it was, but there's something big going on that they'd been planning to do. And every time I walked in the room, they just went dead quiet and they wouldn't tell me anything at all about it. But every now and again, I just walk in and think, something's going on here. And I heard the word about train. I heard something about a train. I was thinking, train, what's a train? But anyway, I never knew anything about it. And then a few weeks later, they all had all these new clothes. It's just for our wedding. And I'd seen these lovely white boots I wanted from Dulcis. And they were dead knee high with a big platform, dead tight or the gorgeous, but I couldn't afford them. And I thought, something's been going on. They're all got lots of money and clothes and that. So I said, oh, Mick, I said, I've seen some lovely boots. I really want to go lovely from a wedding dress when we get married because I had a mini on, mini dress on. And he said, oh, where are they? I'll go and get you them. And he got me them and I love them boots. I love them. But there was something going on to do with the train. I don't know what it was. He's never told me or reacted to that or anything when I've mentioned it to him. He's never. Yeah, but was it was a very secretive Charlie? Oh, yeah. I never knew anything about crime. Nothing like that at all. That's why I nearly died a shock when it was seven years for this, seven years for that, seven years for that, seven years. Well, four years. It came to 28 years all together to run currently. If he never said to leave him, do you think you would still be with him? I don't know. I think we changed, don't you? When you get to a set, I think every seven years you change. Yeah. I mean, your personality changes. I mean, I don't know because he's just taken away. So we've never had that like, I hate you and whatever. And that's over. We've never actually had that. Like you do with other husbands or whatever. And you think, I'm never going to go back to that. But it's different. And with him, because of that, it's like ongoing. And then you read in the paper all the time. He can't forget him. He can't. I mean, I used to go to mum and dad's house like every weekend. And they always just get the papers delivered every time we used to go. Used to read the paper. And there's always pages missing. And I couldn't believe it. I think, what the hell's happened to this woman paper? And I say to dad, dad, I said, page is missing. Number 10 or number 11. And he'll say, is that bloody paper boy? You said, he reads half it and loses half the pages. And I thought, yeah, that must be it. And that's it. That's fine, wherever. And there's anyone Mike got older and he started to read papers themselves. I was thinking, hmm, I'll have to go through the papers. Make sure there's nothing about his dad in them. So I was emptying all the papers because there's always something about micking them on. You could not get away from it. That's the thing that's kept. It's always there in your face. And it still is today. How hard does that for you to try to find, not move on, but because it became a celebrity that over the years have glorified them in a way where you can't, you can't. It's always there in your face. You can't forget. And the fact that Mike is a suspicious image of him. Sometimes I've had a drink and I'm with Mike. And Mike's chatting away to me. I'm looking at Mike. And that's a glance I'm thinking. I'm with Mick. How hard is it? Because he's so, he's so, and we can't forget him. Every time I look at Mike, I mean, I love Mike so much, but I'm just saying that he is so like, it's dead, he can't. You just can't. That's why it's so ill in my head all the time. How hard has it been for your son, knowing who his father is? He's not good that well. In what sense? He's Mr's dad. I can't really go into that. I don't want to go into that. But he's fabulous now. He's been in the hospital for a bit, but he's amazing now. He's really great. Is that a lot of pressure because of who his dad is as well and the dad not being there? I think, Scott's something to do with it, yeah. I think it would do, yeah. But I don't really want to say anything about Mick or... Yeah, of course I understand. ...the longotry or whatever. But they never met for 26 years, that's correct. Yeah. And how was that feeling for him? Well, I said to Mike, I said, look, Mike said, your dad wants to get in touch. But now I said, I don't know what you want to do. I said, do you want to or not? I thought it's hard to leave it up to Mike too. So Mike said, no, I want to go and see my dad. He did do, but they've always had a non-North relationship. So since then. But... Is that hard for you? Well, it is, especially if Mick goes on about Mike and, you know, and I'm in the middle again all the time, you know, like I was in the middle of my ex-husband because Mike wasn't his son, but I had two other children to him. But I always felt as if my ex-husband was sort of picking on him because it's not his son. It doesn't mean it was, it's been bloody hard. Yeah. I wouldn't recommend it for anybody. Was Charlie ever sorry? Oh, yeah. He's in the last letter to me. He said, I'm so sorry after reading that, but you only read the book the other week. He said, I didn't realise what he'd been through. He said, I'm so sorry. It really saddened me. You know, I got pinched by, got robbed by one of the neighbours as well when it was all going on. She did the moonlight flick. Got my key as a friend. Look after the house when I wasn't there. Took most of my stuff and things like that. So he said, I was really saddened to, he's just, I'm so sorry I wasn't there for you. You see, when you go to prison, well, I've not been to prison, but I mean, like your life's taken over, isn't it? Your life's taken over. You're told when to eat, when to go to the toilet, when to shower, when to get sleep or wherever. I don't know. But he said, when you're here outside and your husband's in there, it's not the same. I mean, you've got to get on with it. Nobody tells you to go to the toilet or clean your teeth. You're just thinking, oh, what shall I do now? I could hear all the cars in our kitchen when I was in our house. I used to have going up and down the road and I used to think to myself, well, there's cars going up and down the road. Why are the cars going up and down the road? There's people in cars. They're going up and down the road. My husband's in prison. Mike's dad's in prison. What am I going to do? It was, oh, it was horrible. You just can't get on with life. You know, you can't look at clothes. If you go shopping, you feel sick. You just feel literally sick. You're thinking, what should I get for tea? Oh, I don't want anything. And you had to make enough. Oh, it's just horrendous. It's horrible. It's the worst thing ever. It's something I would never, never advise for anybody to go through. How much does it play the massive effect on your mental health? Well, I, I get this thing, these things like touching everything all the time. Why is that nervous? Well, I did at one point when Mike, going through a hard time, and Mike, Mike was going through a really, really bad time actually. He had this, he actually got involved with drugs, but he, and he actually went to prison. But this was before. Your son? Yeah. This was our son. This was before they got in touch. I think it was. Yeah. I think it was before they got in touch after 26 years. And that was horrendous for me. That was horrendous because I hate courts and prison obviously because of Mick, you know, whatever. Well, do you worry that your son could have potentially led the same life as his dad? Well, that's what I thought. He was in there on remand for two months and it was horrendous, horrendous. He was set up. He was set up. He hadn't done anything, but then everybody says that, but he was involved with drugs. He used to start taking drugs, but wherever. And then we're going to see in Monday. I came with it. It was the worst thing at the first time. Oh, it's horrible. And Mike looks so much like his dad. I thought he's never going to get out. They're going to keep him here forever and ever and ever. They're going to keep him in. They're going to look at Mike and know who his dad is. And that's the end of it. That's what they've done to Mick. They've kept him in there for no reason at all, basically. Anyway, so that was it. My mum sort of kept me going for those few weeks. And then a bit after that, before he actually came out, he was allowed out. Mike should have gone to court and the prison should have taken him to court. And that's when he would have come home. Right. And I went to court and mum went to court with me. I think my ex-husband went with me. And no sign of Mike. He wasn't even in the court. The prison had forgotten to take him to court. Even though he should have been in court that day. Now, apparently that's what they can do. See, these things have been happening to Mick all along. And I thought, oh God, here we go. I came home. I went into my bedroom. It's right at the end of my other house. And I just screamed. I just had a voice inside my head saying, you've got to scream. Just scream. Just scream. The voice was just saying, don't worry about anything. Just scream your head off. Be as loud as you could. So I was screaming and screaming and screaming. A voice was saying, swear. I was swearing my head off. You wouldn't know. I was saying all this horrible stuff. I never swear. I might say bloody hell, but I don't go. I was saying all this horrible language to nothing. I was shouting, I was screaming. And I thought, I just want to scream louder and louder. And I knew if I didn't stop at that point, I was just going to go right over the edge. But I had this voice telling me, stop. Don't keep on screaming. Scream louder. Scream louder. It was horrendous. Anyway, my ex-husband and my kids came running in then. And they calmed me down. And I stopped. But they stayed with me for two weeks after that. They wouldn't leave me on my own at all. Wherever I couldn't even go to the loo without them standing outside the door. But I really lost it then. I thought he's never going to get out. I couldn't do this again. I couldn't. I can't go through that twice. Really couldn't. How did your ex-husband and Charlie get on? Did they ever speak? No, they never met. How did your ex-husband think of, was that Charlie ever in contact with you when you were married again? Now and again, when he was in contact, when he got in touch with Mike, he used to write to me. He knew we weren't getting on anyway. Me and my second husband, we weren't getting on. It was, it was hard. But I'd get up in the night because I don't sleep very well and come down to it. But even now, I still do it now. I'm going to make a cup of tea or something. And if, even if Lisa walks in and she's, oh, you can't just sleep more, she walks in or something. I just say, oh, Mick. And I'm thinking, what am I saying? Oh, Mick, fall. I just go, hi, Mick. I've done that to my ex-husband. I've done it to Ian. I've told John that died. I've done it to Alicia. It's just like, it's always there. You see, it's on my head. It's in my head all the time. It's just something you just can't get out of. Did you ever speak to anyone about that? No. Why not? No, because I just, I am strong. Everybody says I am dead strong or I am. I just, you have to be strong, don't you? But it just has resulted in me doing all this stuff again all the time. Touching this, when I go to bed, all those things, there's about six little shells. There's a dead plant, which I've got the touch so many times. There's other things. And when I'm with a daughter, she says, are you going to bed now? And I go shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up. I can't talk to you. I've got to do this. I've got to do that. I've got to do that. I've got to do that. She says, okay. You just do your routine, mum. She says, I know you have to do all your routine. And it is, it's just, that's it. Is that through everything you've went through? You've been in the papers, married to Charlie, worrying about your son, where it's just had a massive toll on your mind. I think so, yeah. But you still look great for 70. You genuinely do look great for 70. So I must be doing something right. Oh, thank you, love. But it wasn't me just 70. I'm not having me 70 for long. Just took me 70 blue and I... So how is it then, when Charlie's getting all the fame, because he's a massive name, like in the UK world, like how did... Well, that's half the trouble you see. Does that make it worse for you? Yeah, because I can't get it out of my head. See, he's full on. Like ex-husband for nothing because they're not in your face. Yeah, you have to be in a situation to understand it. I mean, with Mick, he's full on. I can't forget him. I can never forget him. I've never been able to forget him. It's just like yesterday, I still get all these horrendous, sticky feelings. I just feel, I often just feel like I'm in that course, room in Chester. That was the horrendous, most horrible thing ever. How many times does he phone you per week? Oh, he'll phone about... Sometimes he'll phone four times a day. It all depends. He has a... He phones regular, very regular. How many later? But he has... Lately, he's been such a good... He's been... Since we got in touch properly, he's been... What's the word? He's been really, really... Calm, polite, nice. Yeah, positive. Positive, yeah. So if I'm getting all stressed out and... Whatever. You look as if you're talking on your nerves, though. Like, you look as if you're on edge, talking on your nerves like... Constant. Well, that's what I mean. I am. Yeah, I am. That's what I mean. I am very panicky. I am very... I mean, if I go into any room or something, and I'll just suddenly turn around and go, whoops! There's nobody there. But I'm just jumping. But that is what I'm like. Did you ever worry being out in the streets that anybody may attack you or anything for being married to Charlie? Because, I mean, he's never done anything nasty or horrible to anybody, has he? What's he done? He's not murdered anyone. He's not a child killer. He's not a pedophile. He's not a rapist. His crime... People think he is a murderer. People have said to me, excuse me, people actually said to me, well, he's a murderer, isn't he? That's why he's in prison. He's in prison because he's fought the system and they don't want to release him. But if he'd have been a murderer, he could have murdered about three or four people, killed kids, raped them, done all sorts. He'd be out now. Why do you think they've kept him in though? There must be a reason. Because he is fighting the system. He's getting us out there, what prisoners really like. Because he's been on the roofs. He's... Oh, yeah, he's been on more roofs than Santa Claus. Well, he has. And do you know what? Do you know what? He's actually spent more time on top of the roofs than the bloody pigeons. How does it... When he gets put in solitary confinement, like... Oh, that's most of his life. That's been most of his life. That's what I mean. That's why he lives in... He's been left in a little tiny cell. Not even a proper cell. Not even got a cardboard bed or anything. He lies on the floor. It's black, no light at all. There's a little slit in the cell door. And they just throw his food in. And that's how he has lived for years and years and years. And that's why his eyesight's gone funny. Because he's in the dark all the time. So if he is taken out, he has to have special glasses. They don't realise that. They think, oh, he needs glasses because he's getting old. But it's because of how he's been kept. Oh, no, it's horrible. He hasn't even had the basic... It's scary the things that have happened to him. It really is. It's scary. Do you think he'll get out? Well, if people... The people that believe that he is never going to get out, I think they are going to eat their words because he is going to come out. Because now it's open parole. They can't... You see, normally it's parole which is closed or something, I don't know what it's called. But it means that it's all set up. So the people for the parole are already saying, oh, yeah, we'll keep him in. It's a decision made beforehand. So, yeah. But now it's open. Because it's open, it gets other people in there. So members of the public can be there. They can all listen. And they are beginning to find out now the truth. They really are. They're finding out now what really goes on. And all about his charities as well. But excuse me, I was going to say something. I've forgotten it again. Oh, my God, I've forgotten it. I've got his charities and getting out of prison. Yeah, he is going to get out of prison. He will. Do you think he'll stay out though? Yeah. Well, he doesn't do crimes anyway. Certainly because he was in prison. You know, he's retaliating in the end. You know, he's not going to be happy sitting all dressed up to go to his brother or his dad's funeral waiting himself. What would you do if they came in and said, why are you not going? Would you say, oh, that's okay. Don't worry. Oh, would you get bloody annoyed? They used to cage him up, didn't they? They used to strap him. Yeah. He was a cage within the cage. Couldn't walk at all. Couldn't move. Couldn't move. As cemented, he was in a tiny cell, but he was cemented in another cell inside that, which he couldn't move at all. You know what I mean? It's horrendous. It's terrible. What's it like for him being in with those kind of criminals on the planet, though? The child killers and the Hannibals. Oh, he hates them all. He hates all the prisoners. He hates them all. But he's actually helping some of the younger ones that come into prison. He's trying to get them, you know, on the road to proper redemption. Yeah. Redemption and to settle sorts of things that like saying, don't use a knife. Don't use art and things like that. He's got all these things that he's set up. Can't remember what they're called now. Where can people buy his art? Oh, yeah, they do. Yeah. Because he makes lots of money. Where can they buy it? Is it a website? He has got a website. I'll leave it in the description itself or something. Yeah. Yeah. I would actually go to one run by Richard Booth. There's one run by Richard Booth, but George runs one. What's your notes here? Do you want to check your notes? Yeah. I'm just thinking, what else did I want to say? Oh, I haven't told you about Big Brother. Yeah, what happened? About when I went for an addition to Big Brother. Yeah, what happened? Oh, yeah. I passed them all. I had to go back again the following day. But because I work in and summers in the toy part, the adult toys, I took this great big pink rabbit. Because I've got to mention this because it's dead funny. It's about this big, that wide. It was called the wave that rippled. Rabbits got things on the end for the women's outside bits and whatever. Anyway, the last interview was in this tent, like it's round tent, and it's just a seat in the middle and it's like long, like just like a pole, just that one thing sticking out, pointing at me. I sat in there for a bit. There's no, you know, nobody's said anything. After 15 minutes, I thought, I guess they're a bit bored here. So I was looking at the tent walls and in the end I got up and started to stare down this little whole thing, looking at that. And then I heard a voice, I'm sure it was Davina laughing her head off because she was doing it at the time because they were sitting outside. Anyway, the next thing Big Brother said to me, Irene, this is Big Brother here. Why are you holding a bright pink dildo in your hands? And I said, oh, it's not a dildo, it's a rabbit. And I said, it does things that men can't do. And I said, I believe, you know, believe me, it's true, it does things men can't do. And then I said, I've actually sewed one of these to an eight to six year old woman the other week, which is true, which I did. And then it all went dead quiet. And then he said, Irene, Big Brother wants you to excuse him. He's just going to be sick in the waste paper basket. But I really thought I was going to get on there then. But Mick's film's coming out, wasn't it? So I think that might have had something to do with it. I don't know. How was it when Bronson was getting made the film when Tom Hardy played his part? He played good, but the film was rubbish. You think so? Yeah. The only time Mick was ever covered in paint, it made him out to be, I think it made him out to be a lunatic. You know, I remember when I used to paint things, I had this thing about painting things, and I used to paint flowers everywhere and that. I didn't know whether I was doing it right or not, but I just buy these bright paint, big things to paint and just paint everything. And one day when Mick had gone to work, because he used to climb those great big industrial tanks and stuff like that, you know, and used to paint them all. So when he was out at work, I thought, oh, I'm going to paint our bathroom. So I painted his daughter, goes by and he painted the bath. Anyway, Mick came home from work and he just, the first thing he used to do is to jump into the bath and then put a suit on. So he jumped in the bath, but I didn't have a chance to send it to him. Didn't say, oh, I painted the bath and it's still wet. Anyway, the next thing I had all this shouting and I ran at the stairs, covered in this turquoise paint, it was covered in it all because it hadn't dried, had it. So he was, but that's the only time he ever painted himself. And your book has got a chapter called Spirits. Oh, yeah. What's that about? Oh, that's me. I've got so many spirits. I've experienced, I'm quite psychic actually. I've had one in Ethel Austin's, when I worked in Ethel Austin's, I went upstairs to the stock room. But the funny thing is, before I went, went upstairs to the stock room, because it used to be an old cinema before, and it's never been changed upstairs. I said to the girls, now if I don't come back with a Easter Saturday, don't come back. The ghost has got me as a joke. So anyway, I went up, I went up in there. I was looking for some leggings for this customer. Couldn't find any. And the next thing I saw, just saw this black blur go like that. And I felt so cold. I was like freezing. And I started crying. Like tears were running down. I thought, somebody here. And I know nobody had come, because the alarms hadn't gone off. Nobody had walked up the stairs, hadn't gone through the alarm door. And I thought, I've got to get out of here. I've got to get out of here. So I ran down the stairs, ran onto the shop floor, and Sarah, the man dressed at the time, came running up to me. Oh, Irene. Irene, she said, you okay? She said, you look as if you're seeing a ghost. I said, I have. It's an old man. An old bent over old man. I was absolutely terrified. I was so cold. I felt as if I've been sitting in a freezer. I was that cold. Not just cold. Really, really, really, really cold. And she's still come. Don't worry. She said, we'll go in the office and we'll have a cup of tea. So I went up with that. She was holding my hand, because I was shaking. She was actually shaking. You go into the little office. She puts the kettle on. She puts the kettle on. She goes to put the kettle on. I start getting so cold again. And I'm just crying my eyes out. So can't stop it. I'm just so cold. And I go, Sarah, Sarah, is here? Is here? He's putting his respect by you now. And she said, oh, bugger this. And she pulled me. And we went into the other little room. She locked the door. But that would have done any good. But she, she, she really, really sensed it. She really did. She really, really did. Now, I never knew what it was that I just saw the black blur. Right now, I can draw a picture of him. Like that little man that used to come to me at night and hug me. I can draw a picture of his willy. Pressed up. I can't. I can't. Even though I never saw it. You do. You know it's in your mind. Anyway, Sarah would never turn the lights off at night when she was used to lock up. So that when she'd come in the morning, the lights were always on. And her mum gave her this special stuff. Can't remember what it was. She spinkled it all down the stairs because she sensed this as well. But that was just one of the ones. So you can see people? Yeah. Oh yeah. Does that scare you? Well, that did. Yeah. That was, that was terrifying. But I think it was a man called Johnny Pye. And I think he was the projectionist from the cinema. Because there was a little cut, like a, oh, a small room. We used to stock all the chairs in there. And I wouldn't go in there. That used to be the projectionist room. And I think that's who it was. It was horrible. It's freezing in here. Hey? It's freezing in here. You cold? Yeah. Oh no, no, no, no. You just saying that because you're a ghost. Your spirit. The other question, your mental sanity then when you started seeing things like that thinking that you're maybe losing your shit. Well, I didn't actually, because the funny thing was, I knew what to see. I knew. I damn well knew. I mean, and I found out later on a couple of years after that went before it turned into F Lawson's shop. It was called Lennons, which is like a grocery store. And the girls in Lennons used to say there was a ghost up in the stock room, but he was friendly. He wasn't friendly to me. I was terrified. You don't get like that if it's a nice ghost. You don't get scared like that. But, oh, I'm told you there's so many things in and summers. We've had a few ghosts in and summers. Right. And we've moved up about three different shops. I've been there 16 years still. And then one of the shots we went in, I said the same thing again to the girls. You know, all locked door when you walk off the shop floor, it's all gets alarmed. And if not back in a minute, I was going to put a bra away. The customer brought back, put it back in the stock room. I said, just, just wait for me. That must be my saying to, to get them all anyway. I walked, walked into the back. And then I went to the stock room and there's like a door here. And I stopped. It was open. And I just stopped because all I could hear was cardboard ripping, like a big cardboard box. You know, the noise really strong. It's just cardboard ripping. So I stopped thinking, what's going on here? Who's doing that noise? There's nobody here. And the next thing right in front of me, this great big cardboard box, we keep all our cardboard box, we get stocking and we put all our sale items in them. It was just going like that. Up and down in front of me, very, very great big box. Very, very slowly walking, going like that. And all the time you could hear this, this cardboard ripping. I was thinking, oh my God. So I turned round, ran out, ran into the office where the manager was. It was Tom at the moment. He was just the relief manager. And I said, Tom, Tom, Tom, I said, is back, the ghost is back. Because we had things before with him. And Tom does not believe in ghosts. He just looked at me to say, God, you're a pretty nutty URI. Because that's what they think anyway. And I thought, well, I don't care. But I said, he's back. So he said, right. He said, I'll prove to you. He said, I'll put the cameras on. So he put the cameras on. And guess what? There's me standing right at the doorway. And there's this big cardboard box, empty mind you, just going very slowly moving up and down, up and down. And as soon as I turn around to run out, it stops. It doesn't do it, do it again. What does Charlie say when you've got a ghost? You say there's a ghost rubbing his willy on you? Well, I don't know if he believes in ghosts, but I do because there's so many. Who's the ghost? His naked ghost? The naked ghost. Yeah. Who's that naked ghost? He says there's a ghost. Oh, no, he's not naked. What he does is he's got no legs, but he's a womanizer. And in his time, apparently he was such a womanizer and he misses all that. So he just wants to cuddle me. But because he's got no legs, he's got very, very strong arms. So he just comes behind me all the time and he puts his arms around me and pulls me to him so I can feel all these bits. Oh, it's scary. What do you do? I was terrified and he was getting stronger and stronger because the more frightened you get, he was doing it. As soon as I got divorced the second time, he was coming more and more. He used to just do it once every blue moon. You know, the whole time, just once every blue moon, all the kids used to say, we always thought it was a little boy, but it was him. But when I got divorced, he was coming once a month and then it was like twice a month and then he was coming nearly every night and I'd just sit up all night out of all the lights on, tally on. I was terrified to go to sleep. In the end, Lisa, you just met before. She said, look mum, she said you're going to have to get rid of him because you can't, you know, you're just not sleeping, you can't cope with this anymore. And she'd met a medium coming to work. That was just another nurse. She'd know she's a medium, but apparently she was a medium. So Lisa just said, oh, you get, you know, help my mum. So this woman phoned me up in my house one night when Lisa was in ballet and was on my own. And soon as she spoke to me, she said, Irene, she said, you're right, you have got a man with you. But she said he's got no legs. She fell to her knees, she said. But she said it's only a small man and he's not harmful, but he's a womanizer. He's had a bad accident. He's lost his legs below the knees and he just wants to cuddle you. I'm thinking, well, why me? Yeah, why come and cuddle me out of all the bloody people that you can come and cuddle? You know, but anyway, she said at least they get rid of him. And she did. She got rid of him. And I was terrified that night. I had all the windows open, all the doors open. And Lisa was ringing me up saying, are you all right, mum? Are you all right? I was going, they're here, they're here. She said, I'm going to send two spirits to get rid of him for you. She said, don't worry. She said, you will sense them. I mean, one minute you'll sense them, but they're not here to harm you. They're just going to take away. And they did and they were moving all around the house because one minute I was really cold and freezing. The next I just felt so warm. I was saying to Lisa, oh, it's okay. It's okay. I'm warm again now. They've gone. The next minute I'll be saying, oh, the back. Lisa was going, the back, the back, the back and all that. But then after about 10 minutes, she texts me and said, it's okay, Irene. She said, they've gone now. Don't worry, they're gone. She never, they don't actually tell you. But Lisa told me she was in ballet at that time and she said, she didn't want to tell me at the time, but she was getting all my feelings when I was all anxious and saying, oh, they're here. She was feeling that. When I was all cold, she was feeling it. But her main worry was, I haven't got him now. He's not come with me now, has he? I don't want to be with him now. Did you ever question your sanity though when all this stuff started happening? No, because I do believe in, I mean, I saw my grandson. He just came. It was only a baby when he died. He was 10. 10 when he came and that's how old he would have been. And it was just so, it was lovely. That was lovely. I was quite awake, but they do normally take hold of your mind when you're asleep because that's what makes them strong. They take hold of your soul because your soul is you, isn't it? So how's the relationship with you and Charlie now? Oh, it's great. I mean, as I say, he phoned last night. He said to mention a few things, which I have done about Belmarsh and the hijackers. In 1996, three hijackers, one hijacked a plane from Baghdad. Was it? I think I think it was Baghdad and they took it to Stanford in London to escape Saddam Hussein. The next, they try to escape. This isn't mixed words. Try to escape one lunatic and they ended up two cells away from Mick from Charles Bronson in Belmarsh, which he did take them hostage. So he said, they're trying to escape one lunatic and they end up with right next door to another one. But he took them hostage. He tied them up like roast chickens ready to be roasted or whatever. And then after about three days, he let one of them loose, he untied them and made them tickle his feet. Anyway, he got seven years for that. And I think the hijackers only actually got three years for actually hijacking the plane. But that just shows you, doesn't it? You know, you can't win. You escape in Saddam Hussein and it ends up by Mick. Did they ever try and escape? Them. Charlie. No. He's not in normal prison. He's bold and chained and everything. He's in that way. How big is he? What height is he? What weight is he as well? Well, he's very muscly. He's mikes the same. Quite a big build. But he's not dead tall. He's a lot taller than me. Same as Mike. They're like big, but they've got a lot of strength and lost very strong. Do you think you ever get back with Charlie? Some camera. Oh, I don't know. Just stay friends. Yeah, we are always going to be really good friends. Soon as he comes out, I just really want him out. I've always wanted him out. I'm like, I just want them both. I want Mick out. And I'd like Mick to sort of take over from me. So I don't have to worry anymore about Mike on me. You know, but no, I would, but we are always going to be really, really good friends. And as soon as Mick comes out, he'll have to go to a hostel. So what's going to happen is I'm going to go and stay over in a hotel and then he's allowed out in the morning about eight o'clock, something like that. And we're going to spend the whole day shopping. He's got to buy some suits and he's going to treat me. And then we're going to have fish and chips. Oh, no, we're going to have a nice steak for lunch. Proper steak with mushrooms and onions. He's dying to have that. And then we're going to have fish and chips for tea that night. How was it right in the book? The truth, the whole truth? Oh, it's good. I actually wrote that during the, the pandemic, the pandemic, pandemic. Yeah, the pandemic because I wasn't going to nobody was coming. I've been meaning to do it for ages and ages and ages. I don't really have, but things haven't, I've not had the right piece of mind to be able to do it. But three things have good things that come out of that pandemic. One is that I got to write that book, even though Steve has condensed it very, very small, but it has got a lot in. And then another thing that makes being allowed to have an open parole, parole meeting. And then the third one, was it killed? Is it Peter Suff? Yeah. Yeah. He died of COVID, didn't he? So that's three good things that's actually come out of this pandemic. Yeah. But I am writing another book now because everybody wants to read it because they just think it's hilarious. Where can people buy your book? Well, they have to get it off Steve, Mojim Publishing. Okay, I'll leave the link in the description. Yeah, it's just Mojim, I think. Mojo Rising Publishing. Yeah, we'll leave the link in the description anyway so people can buy your book. Oh yeah. Would you like to finish up on anything, Irene? I think that's it. It's us, it's us. Yeah, no, that's fine. Will that be all right? Yeah, there's your story, Irene. That's just how you met Charlie. You talked about your book and a little bit about yourself. Yeah. It's just your life, baby. That's what you're doing. That's what you see spirits in, yeah. You married one of them. Oh, I'm very psyched. You married Charlie. And that's just your life. But I'll leave the link in the description. Again, thanks for coming on today and telling your story, Irene. I thoroughly enjoyed that. Oh yeah, oh, it's a pleasure. Likewise. Have a sure and best with Shucha. Hopefully Charlie gets out and I can sit and have a chat with you both. Oh yeah, I'm sure he will be. I'm sure he will. God bless you. Yeah, and you, love. Thank you.