 I'm good to go, so yeah, let's just start talking. Okay, great. Hello, everybody. Thank you so much, apologies on the delayed start. We're doing some rearranging of bodies in space. But I want to welcome everyone to our panel today, our discussion about making room for deaf artists in the hearing industry. My name is Desdemona Chang. I am a freelance director based in Seattle. And with me is our illustrious panel, Rachel Grossman from Dog and Pony, Carla Granger, who's also an ensemble apprentice with Dog and Pony, DJ Korge with Deaf West Theater, Dr. Erin Kelstone with Cleveland Sign Stage, and Tyrone Giogano from Dog and Pony as well. So a little bit about what this panel is hoping to cover today and why I brought this together. I'm a hearing theater artist. And I didn't have a whole lot of connection to the deaf community until recently, where a couple of years ago, I co-directed a production that was half an ASL and half in spoken English. And what became very clear to me over the course of our process was the deep oral tradition that the theater has. And in the many ways that we unknowingly through our practice is our conventional, the way we kind of run the theater, the way we unknowingly exclude the deaf community. I'm talking about things like talking and headset during tech. It's really poorly lit backstage during tech, so you can't really sign and see anybody. So what I'm hoping to unpack a little today with our panelists are the ways that we've seen successful deaf and hearing collaborations, and what can we do to change our practicing models to make those more fruitful in the future. So I guess to begin, if I can have each of our panelists share a little bit about their theater, just to keep you a little quick, we have only 45 minutes today. Really quickly about your experience in the theater and how you got here, and some of, you know, maybe the challenges you face in the work that you do. Who wants to begin? Who wants to just start with Ty and come down this way? Sure. I'm Tyrone Giordano, and I've been involved in theater since 1999. I started at the arena stage and moved out to DC, moved out to California, moved back to DC, have worked with Dog and Pony DC. I'm not the first deaf artist involved with Dog and Pony DC, but we've definitely seen more and more collaboration since I began working within that community, but glad to be here. Thanks. Hello. I'm Erin. Kelston. Kelston from Rochester, New York, and I'm working at the Technical National Theater for the Deaf in New York. I worked about 42 years so far. Once I've been involved at the theater department since the 90s, and before I hadn't worked with the community theater, and I started acting when I was five, five and a half years old and been in theater ever since. I'm from Deaf West Theater in Los Angeles. I've been doing this for 25 years, well, not myself, but the company has been around for 25 years, and our goal is to bridge the deaf and hearing worlds together. My name is Kala. I just graduated from Gallaudet University as a theater major. I'm from Maine, but I've been settled here in D.C. and I've been involved with a number of different deaf productions. Just recently started with the Mosaic Theater and Dog & Pony as well, and my goal is from here on out to have a better collaboration with both deaf and hearing producers in the future. My name is Rachel Grossman. I'm one of three founders of Dog & Pony D.C., and I've had the pleasure of being a theater practitioner here in Washington, D.C. at a number of large regional theaters for the past 17 years, and I first met Ty on that same production of The Miracle Worker, as well as a number of other deaf, hard of hearing, and hearing artists that are signers and interpreters, and that was my first contact with the deaf community. So I wanna start, as most of you know, Spring Awakening with Deaf West was a huge hit this year. It definitely brought deaf culture into the forefront of the American theater. Parade for that. My first question goes to DJ as the artistic director and producer of that production, having both put it up at The Wallace in Beverly Hills and also in New York on Broadway. What are some of the successes and challenges you encountered when bringing a deaf production to a hearing presenting venue? And we can probably get more details but some of the highlights or... Well, Deaf West has been around for 25 years and they have developed the process to make sure that communication is accessible at every step of the way, whether or not we're in a small venue or a large venue. It's the same process. What would you like me to talk about? I guess I'm referring specifically to, on your production, did you have hearing and deaf technicians, only hearing technicians? I imagine when you went to Broadway, the crew was Union, for example. Did you have to spend extra time? Was the tech process longer? Because of communication, there's no needs. In Los Angeles, we did have deaf technicians. When we moved to New York, we did face some issues because they're very established theater. There was one woman who we had doing hair and makeup but we couldn't have that in our show so they were all hearing technicians. We also had to work with interpreters, backstage, interpreters for makeup and hair, stage management and they were also learning on the job as well. It wasn't a perfect solution but we were able to adapt to the setting. We did communicate with everyone that our primary goal is communication access. So if you need an interpreter, call an interpreter. Sometimes it worked out that two people could communicate by gesturing to one another or using smartphones but there are several different ways to solve that issue. And do you think the primary concern with that production was about just the language barrier? That's ideally, because of course I think that's something that we as hearing practitioners, very few of us actually know ASL. But beyond that, did you have access to all the backstage? Was lighting okay for you guys? How did that all that? I'm trying to figure out how institutionally can theaters make backstage more friendly with regards to visibility or were all those things meant for you? I think it's mostly important to view it as a process. It needs to become easier for people that are working on the show to learn sign language as well. We have some stage management that didn't have any skills the first day, but by the end they became rather fluid in the language. So that's the number one requirement, the willingness. I think oftentimes during production, it happens often. First you envision the problem, and you see, recognize the issues. And then reach out, look at the different resources we have. Sometimes you face this issue and it's very important that everything starts with the design and the communication between the production people and everybody involved. And I will say that the key is having the right attitude. Right, right. Attitude is very important. And it's very important that everyone working together will benefit from this experience. We did have TVs, screens, placed in different locations, but it was very visible. And we do use both hearing and deaf people and every asset just to put this production together. So there's a total of nine schools all together, including RIT, and once everything grows and everybody communicates together and be able to work together. And working with the hearing community, we'll teach them little gestures and teach them some science. And once they start to be able to team up, work together, including using the TV screens. And after one, two, three days, everything started to work itself out. As long as you have the right heart and the right mindset. And also in regards to communication, there is a technical aspect as well. So we will have TV monitors in the dressing room that actually have captions. We will have a captioner that will say five minute call if that's what's happening on the headset. As well as on stage, we have cue lights. They're in the wings. And they're also set in on the balcony towards the back of the house so that the actors know what the cues are. There's two different adaptations for that in our show. Sometimes we do have enough time to production. I mean, very focused. I mean, it's important that we emphasize on time. But sometimes we have the- Cue with physical actions. Cue with physical actions. And so for lighting and sound and communication between the production and the crew. I mean, it's very important that everything remains visual. And in due to time, it's often a very big challenge to work out both languages and culture. It takes time to meld them all together. But in the end, we all make it work out. Calla, you had shared in one of the ASL pickup session yesterday that you are stage managing a show at Capital Fringe coming up. And I'm wondering, in the hearing community, we assume that the stage manager sits in the booth with the headset and calls cues on headset. How are you- I don't know. I actually don't even know where to start. How are you running the show visually? I mean, I'm assuming visually. Which is through a series of cue lights. Yeah. Yeah, well, so far, we've been adapted mostly cues to be visual. But with this specific production, it's interesting because with the language barriers, we have, well, for example, with two characters, one who only speaks English, one who only speaks Spanish. So, I mean, the play itself has language barriers within it. So it's really interesting that we're all learning as part of that development, like how we work together and how we interact. The director itself can interpret, is an interpreter, but there are times when the director isn't going to be there and it's gonna be me with two different hearing actors who don't know how to sign. And of course, they're picking up some as we go. But we also use our smartphones. We send out texts, emails. But most of the adaptations are physical. Sometimes after a remind, actors not to do change on their body up because then we'll miss a cue. And so far, that's been, our experience has just been adapting as we go and the process is going to be different. I mean, this is one of the smaller shows. If it were a larger cast, or if we had music incorporated, then it might be a different story. I think it depends on what technology we have available too. I mean, we're working at Gallaudet, so if we're working, we'd have that technology. But if we were working in another location that might have more advanced technology, that would be an interesting resource that we could take advantage of. What's most important is that we're open-minded and that we can collaborate and work together and find a way to communicate. That's really the key. Just additionally, I know that many of you are sitting there figuring out how in the world do I communicate with deaf people? Trust us, we know how to communicate with you. Just ask us, you know? We've been doing this all our lives, so let us take the lead and we will lead you through this process. You can trust us with that. Another tip that I think would be helpful is to have a deaf member of the production team or someone who is deaf from the beginning. Like, for example, with Howie. You brought Howie on as a co-director because you recognize that need from the beginning. You don't want to start getting into the production only then to realize that it's too late to bring someone in. So the most important thing is to take the step, the initiative. And I know it's more and more as I work with hearing and deaf companies together, it's not like you have a design and then you start adding people in. Really, you start adding people in from the beginning. You have the concept of deaf person there, a hearing person there, both perspectives at the table, starting from the beginning. And that's a great way to start that process. By adding it on later on, you always end up having some concerns and complaints. And some of the designers are like, wait, now you're ruining my original lighting design and now I have to move things around. And if you start from the first day with that initial production meeting, just the concept and thinking of how we might be able to make it all happen. It's a completely different and collaborative process. It ends up being a lot more positive and a lot more smooth. Again, that add-on concept makes it more difficult. I just wanted to add on to that, but basically, one example that I experienced before was when the light designer was hearing and they designed the lighting without even taking into consideration the cues that would be appropriate for me. And then later on, I had to adapt all of those cues. So it would have saved a lot of time if they'd worked with me in the beginning instead of having to do it after the fact. And going back and changing everything that they'd already set up, it was a waste of time. It ended up being a, we lost a half a day of tech just because of that. So I think that's important to keep in mind when you're trying to envision something that you incorporate that from the beginning. I want to touch on something that Ty brought up, this idea of hearing people being afraid to communicate with us and like, oh, we know how to trust us, the deaf folks know how to communicate with you. Something Rachel and I had discussed briefly at the ASL Pickup is this inherent discomfort or nervousness or bashfulness, whatever it is that makes us feel afraid to approach our deaf colleagues. I think Dog & Pony has done some wonderful work in sort of dissolving a little bit of that membrane. And I would love Rachel to share some of the techniques that Dog & Pony has. Yeah, I was going to say Dog & Pony has done a, Dog & Pony DC has done a wonderful job of being awkward and embarrassed. And I think it's, I think it's, it's fascinating listening to my fellow panelists talking about, you shouldn't just add, just add in. And because when Ty joined the performing ensemble of toast the show a few years ago, there was no intention of having a deaf performer in the show. And we were like, it's okay, we'll work it out. We'll figure it out. And I'm so glad that we figured it out but we're still in the process of figuring out what that means to work with deaf artists, especially in the type of work that Dog & Pony DC does, which is not necessarily typical mainstream theater for another time. I think, you know, there's so much packed into hearing privilege and into the autism that's built, that's oddism, not oddism. That's built into the dominant culture of our potentially our world. I think we can say that we really take for granted and when confronted with that and when we start, and I really speak from a hearing person's perspective and to all the hearing people in the room that we start taking that really for granted and start getting very nervous when we're confronted with, oh my gosh, I don't wanna embarrass myself and I don't wanna insult anyone but we start making it about ourselves. Ty's right, deaf people have been communicating within our culture for so long that I think that basic learning, that flexibility, that understanding what a visual culture, a visual gestural communication and language culture means. I mean, we have tried to look at how to take our own learning process and be very transparent with it and to share it as much as we possibly can with artists that we are interacting with and through this in our ensembles and then through in the outside world through our ASL Pickups program which is very young and new. I don't wanna turn it into something that it's not but I think just knowing that we can always asset share with one another and not always have to rely on our deaf colleagues. I mean, we have wonderful colleagues who are to my right which are the interpreter community who have been a wonderful resource to us as well throughout this journey who deserve lots of props. I don't know that I actually answered your question, I'm sorry, I just. Rachel, I do want to piggyback on what you were saying. Oh good. Thank you. Certainly is, oh, sorry, okay, yeah. So you were saying something to keep in mind that my appearance on the scene just being involved in Toast changed Dog & Pony DC entire community, the company itself changed and started paying attention to things, things that you think that's the way that we communicate, that's the way we process, that's what we do and talking over one another, interrupting one another and deaf people tend to be far more, pay far more attention to appropriate turn taking and it actually has been a benefit to their company and so there are a lot of advantages to bringing in deaf artists and assigning element to your production. And I think I'll add on to that by saying that sometimes if you might feel uncomfortable, maybe you might, it's might be because you're on autopilot and you tend to start with your mouths and your tongues and when you meet a deaf person you think, oh, and then you end up being a little shocked in the moment and you're not sure how to start with really facial expressions and gestures and eyes, you don't tend to use those so it feels a little awkward, you feel like you have to shift, you've got to shift back into fourth gear now and so think starting, you always think in terms of starting in that first gear which is with your mouth. So it's time to sort of change that thinking. Think about where you are and if you're able to sort of change what you do and use more gestures and more facial expression and use your eyes more and look at stranger's eyes more and that may feel a little uncomfortable and it feels like, oh, it's not appropriate to do it and it certainly is different and Ty's right. It changes the company, it changes the feel of the group, it changes the dynamic and it changes it for the better. So you get more expressive actors and it's quite the benefit. Really you're actors, this is theater, this isn't radio, you should be used for this idea, right? Right. One thing that I'd like to add on to what Rachel was saying is the role of the interpreters in the process. She's right, interpreters are our allies and our friends but we can't rely on them wholly to be the leaders in the process. We need deaf people in that position and hearing people as well to lead the process and the interpreters will support that process, that is their role, to facilitate communication. So a lot of hearing people have the idea that interpreters are the person that you can go to to ask questions about sign language but that leads to other issues. Yes, precisely. Is it worth sharing those other issues? Quick, I don't know, I know it's a very long and complicated relationship between the hearing and the deaf and the interpreter being kind of the mediator of that but just a few points for those of us who will be encountering you and our interpreting staff here, a couple of maybe one or two or three bullet points just for us to know, rules of engagement. Okay, so for the ASL pickups, which is a sort of hybrid sign language game night for an hour at a bar, it is important that we hire deaf people to be our instructors because American Sign Language is the language and if anyone please correct me but that is a language from the deaf community and of deaf people and interpreters are an important interlocutor between the communication, facilitating the communication between someone who speaks another language and is from another community and the deaf community and the hearing community but I should be hiring someone who is representing and speaking that language to lead and facilitate and teach and I think that is where it becomes appropriate in that situation. I'm maybe not saying this correctly but so Kala, our colleague Teasha, our colleague Justin, they are all deaf and they are all the ones that are teaching the ASL pickups and it would not be, I don't believe it would be appropriate at all for me to be hiring a hearing person to be leading that program. When you need a deaf person, a basic rule is don't run away. Just stay, stay and interact, it will be okay. That's one rule of engagement. Not from the perspective of Deaf West but from the perspective of a hearing company. If you're casting actors, you can't be prepared for them to advocate for themselves if you are casting a deaf actor. They want to come and they want to work. They don't and shouldn't be expected to be their own advocates for access because they need to be focused on their work as an actor. So it's really important for the company to provide the support system. In our shows we have an ASL master that will coach the actor in the process of translation from English, from the English text to the performed ASL. They'll sit and watch the runs to make sure that it's an inclusive process. Yes, it's the same as AEA, the association with the union. I mean, it's the same equity, it's the same kind of process. We're like moths to the light. We like light. We like light. So you put us in the dark in the back and we try to scream but it won't help. So how does the tech process go when it's dark backstage anecdotes to share? Because I feel like that's something we often struggle with in the production I worked on was we're in tech, we're backstage and we were forced to have a stage manager who was hearing, so she was on headset with our union staff, but she was also signing. So we had her live streaming on FaceTime with, we had two ASMs, one hearing, one deaf and she would be calling Maki on headset with the hearing ASM and then also signalling on FaceTime with the deaf ASM backstage. But it was always so dark and I honestly, I'm stumped by this one. I don't know how to facilitate better communication when it's pitch black backstage for the technicians or actors, and I don't know if that's something you live with as part of the theater process or the tech process. I don't know what your thoughts are and certainly we want to fix this today, obviously. At Deaf West, we have a visual management system. We use monitors for communication, but nowadays people will use their iMessages on their smartphones to communicate with one another. It's been working for us and it's convenient solution. Yeah, same here, yeah. We have an old technology, just a blue light in the back and a specific area in the back where we can see with that blue light and there's a person responsible for queuing actors or queuing some of the crew members, queuing entrances. Yeah, really, oh, go ahead. It's fairly simple, it's not very hard. And the number one thing is just to have an open attitude right from the beginning. Yeah, it doesn't cost much money involved in those changes. Well, the interpreters are expensive. Yeah, they could be a little pricey, but it's really just the one thing, really. Everyone has a smartphone in the workshop. They talked about 95% of the people having smartphones these days, so it's an easy technology that you could use. And using something visual, visual rather, that's important in queuing people and really smart, cheap, human interaction is all it is. Yeah, and you could build, just let me piggyback and expand on that just a bit. When we talk about this excessive idea, just during system, this awkward kind of thing, you're trying to come up with that and I'm like, well, we just signed to one another, but it's just something to think about in the future. It would be an advantage to you, to all of you and your companies to learn some sign, just to prep, to arrive, to be prepared when you have deaf artists entering your company. I agree. When we have two hearing stage managers, they will start to sign to each other to communicate with one another, even though they're both hearing. Yeah, that's something I also learned really quickly too is that even though we had a number of cast members who were hearing, that we made ASL the primary language in the room, so that we actually spoke very little, that even hearing people would sign to each other so that information was being conveyed across the board all the time. And that was challenging and worrying at the same time. I actually have a question for Dr. Calstone. As an educator, what can teaching artists impart onto the next generation of hearing leaders, performers, producers who are coming up and who are preparing? I mean, I feel like it's happening, right? I'm excited to see more collaboration between deaf and hearing theaters, but what can the new generation of hearing artists, what can we learn or know? Well, I think what's happening now is that you've got people who are meeting us sort of after school, after trainings, after their sort of initial exposure to workshops and trainings and the like. And really what needs to happen is that in their training, they're being introduced to what it really means to have these different types of individuals show up as a part of their process and a part of their work. And not something that happens after the training experience, but really in the middle of the process itself. Designing lights, designing sets, part of the acting process at the same time, working with these individuals, working with deaf individuals. And instead of sort of afterward when it's hard to sort of go back and have that be part of the learning experience. So when you're learning theater and you're working with a diverse cast and crew, deaf people are a different type of that diverse network. And it's important to have access to them for early onset. And another thing that I'll add on to what Dr. Calstone was saying, we also have technicians as well and designers, people that are very enthusiastic to get involved, but don't have many opportunities to do so. So it's really an important thing to invest from the beginning to have that accessibility ready and be considerate of potential deaf artists being involved. And now it's very, very hard for deaf artists to get into those circles, those special schools. There's several barriers that are very difficult. It doesn't matter that these are incredibly talented, unique individuals. They're met with requirements, admission requirements, and things like that that create additional barriers. So it really would help a lot in agreeing with what DJ said about access and having some form of certification or something that would help the work and help artists get in. I think we have maybe like 10 minutes or so. If there are any questions for our panel? All right, no? Oh, there's one person with a question. Yeah? Yeah. Hello, I'm Clara Geron from London in the UK, and I run a program called Unlimited, which is a fund for arts by disabled artists. And I had questions following on from the place of education. Actually, so for that, I just wanted to mention that there's a new degree in Scotland that's in BSL performance, British Sign Language Performance, which is doing really well. It's been a couple of years and it's really exciting. I don't know too much about it, but it might be something interesting to look at. I'm interested in how your work, the work that you do, whether it's inclusive, learning deaf and hearing people or not, is received. And by audiences, what groups do you reach? Who comes to see the work? By the sector, what barriers are there? Does the work reach the mainstream and what kind of work reach the mainstream and why? But also by critics. I just like to know a bit more of how the work is received. I'll speak to that. I'll say for Deaf West, as I said, they've been around for 25 years and they have an audience. They've developed an audience. Who knows and comes to expect American Sign Language and English blended together in a unique way? We have a variety of approaches and people are interested in seeing that, our innovative ways with every production to include deaf and hearing artists together. And that is part of our process. We can't just have the one production. We have to continue to grow our audience and keep them coming back. Often with new audiences, their first question is, will I be able to understand what's happening? And so with hearing and deaf actors blended into the same performance, you've got both languages happening at the same time. Yeah, you said you were from London, is that correct? Yeah, it's that day first. Think about the different parts of Europe and Asia and deaf theaters sometimes they don't necessarily use sign language like we would use it. We have a different style of use of language and sometimes you might ask the question, wow, why are you signing so much? It seems like a lot of dialogue. It can be more physical and more gestural in other countries and that's their solution for inviting diverse audience. Into the experience. And there's a cultural perspective as to how theater is. It's not just deaf theater, there's different types. There's styles and different issues that come up at the time. In general, you can expect to show up at a theater where you have a deaf actor or deaf themes and you will have access as a hearing person. We on the other hand as deaf patrons don't always have the same luxury. So keep that in mind. Just a little food for thought. We did marketing research for Spring Awakening on Broadway and we realized that the number one reason that people come to see the show is to see American Sign Language. So. It is, I would say, we're very new to producing work that is interpreted and the work when we have deaf actors, the two productions that we've done that have deaf actors in them, one we've done multiple productions or multiple runs of. Do you know, we have to be building the relationship that we are a theater that can be trusted that the work is interesting, let alone that we, again, don't do your typical shows so then there's that. But certainly it's about building the trust and reputation and being authentic, being present, demonstrating that we as a company are also in it for the long haul and it's part of our artistic mission is certainly important and that we're providing quality and open access to the production as a whole. But at this point, the shows have also, I mean, for us, we're not necessarily exploring deaf themes in the work. I don't wanna, like I don't wanna put you on the spot, Ty, but it was like when we did, I'm gonna start talking about toast and you can say something or not. When Ty came into toast, like we deliberately, we didn't market that there was a deaf artist in there, which he and I had a discussion about whether we should that, should have or not. We certainly said all the performances that he was in, we were like, these are all interpreted, but didn't say why. And so there was this interesting occurrence when he would start the show, he was the first person to speak in the show, his character was. And so there was this like what's happening moment. And so our deaf audiences were quite small for that first iteration. It increased the second time and it continues to sort of increase in our relationship with the deaf community has continued to increase over time. But you felt you were sort of refreshing for you to not be in a role that was about being deaf. Yes, you wanna talk about that? No, you're right, no, no, you're exactly right. It was so nice to show up and not have to justify or explain myself to just fall into the role and do what I do. And the audience at first seemed hesitant, but then just clicked and there weren't any issues. It's not difficult, it's not difficult. Thank you. We have one question in the back and then one here. This is tricky, I don't know if we're gonna be able to pick up the question. As a stage manager specifically, do you feel like you earn your respect from the cast because of your work or because you are a deaf artist and if you earn your respect because you're a deaf artist, do you feel that hinges you? So the question was for Kala, our deaf stage manager, whether or not she was able to earn her respect because of her work or because she is deaf and whether that hinders her ability to do her work? Well, to be honest at first, it was always, it was a little bit strange. You know, there was that fear of course in having to overcome that fear of interacting people, but once I did that, my work ethic showed itself. You know, I showed up on time, I did my work. If I didn't show up on time, if I skipped out and I wasn't as productive, then of course they would look at me that way, but I don't think it was about my deafness. I think my work speaks for itself. And the theater is a team. I mean, if there wasn't that kind of teamwork or collaboration, it would fall apart. It's in everyone's best interest to work together. One more question? Yeah, so my name is Fader Scott and I was a dramaturg on I Was Most Alive with You at Huntington Theater Company. And we decided before every performance, in case you don't know what that is, it was a show in ASL as well as spoken English. We decided before every single performance to have a, this is how you watch the show. And that was something that was done in both languages. And I just wanted to hear your thoughts about that, especially going back to the comment that was said earlier. Like do you think that, yeah, what are your thoughts? So the question around whether or not audiences need priming? Yeah, yes. To go experience a show that's by the audience. But I wonder if, what are the benefits of that? What does, are we putting a crutch on hearing audiences by doing that? Or is this helpful or, I'm sure it's super open and it's fun. Education is a big part of how we work with our audience. With the production of Spring Awakening, there was one couple that came up to me after one show. They came up to praise the show, said it was very wonderful how we mix both languages. But why did we have so much language? Some languages. So we thought that, they thought rather that it was just some sort of choreography. And that it wasn't necessarily about accessibility. And all the considerations of that, thinking that the audience is sitting there for two hours watching this entire show and thinking that it's just complicated choreography and not actual language. I remember one time I had an old man come up to me at intermission and he said, I'm a subscriber. And I'd like to ask you to tell them to stop signing because it's bothering me. And I don't like it. I don't like all that hand movement thing. Can't take it. So it's education, right? You have to explain to people. He was a little grouchy, but so it goes. It's a long process. You have to do it before the show. You'll have signs saying that this is a signed show. You'll have inserts in the program. You can host workshops, talk backs, all of those sorts of things. That's what we do best. So yes, it's a good thing. Yes, people. I mean, you could make an artistic choice not to. Certainly. That's entirely your decision. Yeah. Because I'm not disagreeing, obviously. I'm not disagreeing, but I'm always gonna be in a questionable place of what are we spoon feeding? Our audiences. And that's not what I think my fellow panelists are talking about at all. I think I'm supporting everything that they're saying, or I'd support everything that they're saying, but I think there's a real question about what are we trying to ease and spoon feed and where are we trying to educate and how might we learn, how might we take, I have no idea what the, I mean, I know the show, but I don't know what the Huntington was doing. So what are we allowing this as a teachable moment about deaf culture? What are we doing this as a teachable moment about different types of sign languages? Because I also know that the deaf characters must be from different regions of the world, different racial backgrounds. I think there's so much specificity that could come into that, which is so exciting, like that opportunity, instead of just like, this is the ASL alphabet, which is also important, but you're, yeah, yes, Rachel. I mean, in terms of dog and pony DC with our work, we are always building in some sort of invitation, a way that people can access our work. And we design the shows, and you can certainly design your shows to be however and whatever you want. Do you want an educational component? You can make an artistic choice not to, I mean, right, we're, it's an open game, right? And we, of course, will be watching to see what you do and if they work, if it works or it doesn't. It really becomes easier with every production that you do in sign language. The barriers will slowly disintegrate. But the first is always the hardest. I'm curious, any of the panelists can speak to experiences of watching a mixed audience respond to a show. I remember I had this experience in Seattle where we were doing the show, and I mean, it was literally half-deaf, half-hearing, and just even watching the pre-show experience of these two very different demographics come together for a singular, which was kind of really thrilling and a little strange and unnerving and very exciting. I was wondering if you had anything to share in that regard as performers and producers. I don't have one specific story, but I know that sometimes we have ASL workshops, and so we'll teach people some basic sign language that don't know any coming in. And then once they come and watch the production, they're able to recognize certain signs, and it's a really thrilling experience for them. So they're learning not only to listen with their ears, but with their eyes. I think sometimes it also raises the expectation. For example, in our productions, we have students, performers who are deaf and hearing. And often after the show is complete, and the parents have come to see the show, of course, and they'll come up and they'll say, I didn't realize that my daughter could do that, or I didn't realize that my son could do that. So where their expectations might have been lower, they end up getting a huge lesson of their own, and it's a mixed audience, and they thought, ooh, I thought it would be at some level, but it ends up being at a higher level, and a better level. And it changes people's perspective. Yeah, so much of the work that I see that's happening, it's actually about, on top of making the art and collaborating, it's about encountering, that moment of encounter of an entire culture that is not visible in mainstream. So that's something I really appreciate hearing you guys talk about. We have a tiny bit of time left. Any last thoughts or questions before we go off to our next sessions? I have a question about open captioning versus signing. And if audiences generally have expressed a preference for one or the other, I know there's emerging technologies for open captioning. There's an app that's in the works called, things called caption point, I think, that uses smartphones, for instance, and theater broadcasts the captioning to the smartphone. So I'm just curious if there's a preference or if that's been discussed at all. The question was about open captioning versus signing, if there's a preference. Yeah, both. Both. Well, that's another discussion. That's a separate discussion. But, really, the more the better. There are deaf people who love sign language and deaf people who love caption, so it's good to have a choice. And remember, many people who maybe don't hear well don't know sign. And so the caption is really particularly important and worth it for them. And so they wouldn't want more captions. And right, they have the smartphone technology that they would look at it. You know, it kind of makes me think about listening to the radio. So really, they're focused so much on their phone that they're missing the entire show, which is the point of the evening. And so it'd be great to have it designed into the show. Like at Spring Awakenings, for example, where you saw text that was projected onto the set and that was a very effective way. But there's diversity in the deaf community, of course, and there's different audiences with different needs. And that can be a big challenge between signing and voicing and captioning and the like. If you were deafblind, for example, then you'd be having somebody, an interpreter signing into your hand, for example. So it can be a challenge to figure out appropriate communication for your audiences, but worth it. Oh, I just wanted to emphasize that I think it's a really important point that he made that you design it into the show itself in a number of different ways so that people can experience all of them, depending on the kind of show you have, whether it's a large cast, if it's dialogue-based, if it's a musical. It's just important to have a variety of experiences. And whether you have the interpreter and captioning, when you have the interpreter or the captioning separate from what's happening on the show, then it feels like as a deaf audience member that I'm just reading a script. I create this distance from the show when I have to do that. And so it's much nicer when you can actually incorporate it into the show itself. And really right now, technology as such, we're not there quite yet. But I would say the next step for accessibility will be sort of an augmented reality where the captions and the interpreters maybe perhaps could be projected within the screen. You're not going to have to look at one screen and then jump your head back to look on the screen here. I mean, it might be able to actually follow the action and the dialogue on the stage. Yeah, tech directors, we're working, we're tech designers, we're working with them. We're hoping that's going to be the new thing. And thank you for that. And that's the kind of things that we talk about in design school. Great. All right, I got the key. I want to thank you, I don't need any. And thank you to our panelists. Thank you so much. We'll be back in a minute. Woo! I don't know what. Let's show them.