 So, let's get started with our second talk for tonight. We're going to learn how to protect our landscape and garden plans from lawn herbicides. And here to teach us is Dr. Harleen Hatterman-Valenti. Harleen is the high-value crop specialist at NDSU, and on campus, she primarily teaches about herbaceous ornamental plants, like annuals and perennials. Her research is focused on helping horticulture growers to maximize their yields and profits. She also works with researchers to evaluate the human health qualities of horticulture crops, and she raises awareness of consumers like us to the health benefits of horticulture crops. So, Harleen, welcome to the forums. Okay. Thank you, Tom. Welcome. So, yeah. So, tonight, I'm going to talk about some work that I started, oh, gosh, 30 some years ago when I was working on my PhD. But I still think many of the aspects are relevant for tonight. And, you know, as a homeowner, I'm a homeowner, everyone wants the best of both worlds. We want to have that nice lush green lawn. And yes, as an instructor of herbaceous ornamentals, I would die for a backyard like this. I just, I mean, just like Jan likes almost every bug, I love almost every ornamental, especially herbaceous ornamentals. And so, my backyard, the grass is getting less and less as I make more flower beds. But I don't know if my husband would ever let me put a circle in the middle of our yard. But anyway, you know, so we want both of these, but, you know, it's really difficult to have the best of both worlds. A lot of us have good intentions. And it's like, okay, this year I'm going to go and, you know, for my candy lions, which you can see a few there, you know, the best time to control perennial broadleaves is in the fall, not in the spring. In the spring, the growth is all going up to new growth. And so not down to that perennial part to that perennial root system that's going to overwinter. So you make those applications in the fall, which is another good time because late in the fall, when all those food translocating are being translocated into that perennial root system, this is a good time when if you're like me, by that time, I'm pretty much done with gardening. Now, things have just gotten away from me weed wise or, you know, I have the neighbor has just said if you bring one more zucchini to me, I will go and move out of the neighborhood or something like that. So it's usually a good, much safer time to make those applications to go and control those perennial broadleaves weeds. Also, in the springtime, we just start getting really busy. As Jan said, the others only so many, so many hours in a weekend to go and get all of this stuff done outside. And so it's sometimes we have the greatest intentions, but it's just not enough. So we'll go and probably get help probably hire someone to go and spray weeds for us. And I'm not saying, you know, like this ad is trying to say, if you don't spray your lawn, you're going to have a weak lawn. There's a lot that goes into a healthy lawn and a healthy lawn does do a much better job of not allowing these weeds to go and come in. It's when you have a thin lawn that there's a lot more opportunities for weeds to emerge. So knowing that, you know, you might be calling someone to go and help. There's a number of lawn care services and they all have a different way of making their herbicide applications to go and control those dandelions that you will go and see and see that sea of yellow in somebody's backyard and go, oh gosh, that means in a few days or to a week, I am going to have all those things flying over and landing in my yard and trying to get started. So what I did when working on my PhD, I said, well, you know, there's better ways of making these applications that will probably go and help to go and not have off target movement and not have injury to those ornamentals that you are, especially those broadleaf ornamentals that you want to keep healthy. So I looked at something like that. And of course, now this is some of those symptoms that you want to avoid. For example, the tomato, you can see how tightly that is curled and the leaves are curled up and the stems are twisted or even with that orange comb flower, you can see how this is a much, this is still a synthetic oxen or a plant growth regulator herbicide, but it has much different symptoms than what you see on that tomato. Here now we're seeing some puckering of the leaves and cupping up of these leaves and the flowers start to look like they're senescing. And then on the rows, we see even more different symptoms. We don't see so much. We see a little bit of some symptoms on some of the smaller newer leaves and petioles, but mainly what we see is that those, the flowers of those roses are dying. And so in these all are the things that will happen with these synthetic oxen. And this is what we're trying to avoid. So what I did was I went and wanted to see what would cause more injury. And so I use three common application methods. The one on the right is commonly called a temlon gun. It's a spray gun that throw at much lower pressure, tends to go and have larger droplets and less small droplets. The middle one, I was an example of somebody with a flat sand nozzle. This produces smaller droplets, but generally for a post-emergence application or something where you want this to land on to the foliage, you're a little bit, if you have too large of a droplet, that droplet, when it hits that leaf, it tends to bounce. You want something a droplet small enough so that when it lands on to that leaf, it then spreads out and stays there. And then this last one is an example of a raindrop, which is more like a, it has a much larger distribution of larger droplets, not as large as the temlon gun, but it doesn't take the kind of volume that the temlon gun takes to make an application. So I looked at these three, and what I did was I set up my spray path to always be the same, and then I set up my downwind targets, off-target sites. And what I found was that, so you can see here, what I have is I have these mylar, and they're kind of like overhead projector acetates in which they were set at 90, 150, and 210 centimeters downwind. And so 90 centimeters, about a meter or about a one yard, three foot. And so you can see with the spray gun versus the flat fan versus the raindrop, which has those larger droplets, when we look at the distance downwind, I didn't have anything specifically different with those three application types. But what I did see is that the closer I was to my spray spot, the more off-target herbicide that I had. And on this, I actually just used a fluorescent dye, and then I rinsed those mylar targets, and then I used that fluorescent dye and a spectrophotometer to go, or fluorometer actually, to go and quantify the amount of spray drift that moved downwind. And so that makes sense. The closer you are, the more you're going to have. The further away, the less there was. But really, there wasn't much difference. There wasn't any difference statistically between that 150 and 210 centimeters downwind. Now, when we look at the averages of the three spray nozzles, we see that the spray gun had less downwind drift than the flat fan, and that's the only real difference there. The other thing that I went and used was tomato plants. And at that time, triclopter was coming up, was on the market. It was rather new, broad leaf herbicide. And so I used triclopter to go and see what kind of visible injury symptoms I could see. So I had two plants, and one of them I went and I took back to the lab right away, and I rinsed off of the fluorescein dye that was in that spray. And the other one, I brought what it was dry. I brought it back to the greenhouse, and I took injury evaluations. So again, what we see this time is that at that 90 centimeters, that we had more drift with that flat fan in comparison to the spray gun. So same as what I showed at the first one. And that also correlated with injury, but you can see how much more injury I having that we saw with the flat fan in comparison to that raindrop. So the raindrop, when you look at it, there was only a little bit over two and a half percent more spray drift that went to 90 centimeters. But because that was all those much smaller ones droplets that then that tomato plant went and absorbed, you can see how much more diff, how much more injury we got there at 90 centimeters. And that also was true then at 150 centimeters, but we didn't have, I mean, it was that much further downwind, so we didn't see as much injury as we did at the 90 centimeters. And so with that, what I, what I really concluded was that, you know, the spray gun was the best way of making these applications to avoid off target movement of your droplets. But what I also found out is with that spray gun, when you're trying to make, you have a border and you're trying to make, you're, they're supposed to be making this spray application. They're supposed to just move your wrist 45 degrees and back, 90 degrees and back. And, and what happens is a lot of times when you're flicking that way and then you're trying to come back, you tend to overcompensate. And so I even had a commercial applicator making this application because I felt like, you know, I couldn't go in and accurately do this. And still I had some, what were right next upwind that were getting droplets. These were direct droplets from human air. And so my conclusion was, is that you have to have at least a foot border to avoid some major injury, even with that spray gun, because of the human air factor. And so with that foot, you can go and just use your little dandelion digger or whatever. But, you know, some other means of trying to go and, and control those perennial, those broadleaf perennials that might be a problem. So with that, I went and I said, okay, so if I can't completely eliminate off target movement, what can I do to go and figure out to reduce the amount of injury to these off target plants? So what I decided to do is I was going to use 2,4-D and triclopyr. And I sprayed reduced amounts to various annual bedding plants when they were right in that early flowering stage. And, and so what I found with that was that petunia was the most susceptible species. It was the most sensitive to 2,4-D and triclopyr of all of those that I have there. And it was also more sensitive to triclopyr than 2,4-D. And so it was like, oh, okay. But when I looked at all of them together, what I found was, even though petunia was the most sensitive, begonia was the next, so wax leaf begonia was the next. And those were all similar to what I saw injury-wise with marigold and pansies and annual status. Then our next group that were less sensitive to this off target drift were geraniums and patients, rose periwinkle and salvia. So the, well, I have one more here. Oh, no, I don't. Sorry. So my take home message was that if you were afraid of some off target movement, then use those last four as your border plants. And I looked at annuals because usually annuals are used more as a border plant than perennials. So when I got to North Dakota State, I, you know, during that time, the trimet was becoming more important and people were using that because that had three herbicides in it and had a more broad spectrum control of broadleaf weeds and a lawn. So I went and I looked at the difference between that trimet versus two 4D and dicamba. And I used another set of annual bedding plants, but I wanted to keep some the same as that time when I was working on my PhD, just to see how things would work with that because I had two 4D in my other study. Well, first thing I found out was that when you look at the, the, this graph, we have the percent of injury. And then we have the portion of the herbicide rate. So that sub lethal amount. So we're going from nothing to 0.05 and then increasing. So it makes sense that as you increase that rate, you're going to see more injury. Well, what I found is that that top one is the trimet. And so I had more injury with the trimet than I did with the two 4D or the dicamba. But when you look at those lines and the rate of incline on those, you see that the two 4D is probably the driver in this whole thing because it's very similar with the trimet to the two 4D. Whoops. I should first go and say, and what I found from the study was that in my list of most sensitive to least sensitive, first it was agerata, then it was sweet elisam, then it was marigolds, which was equal to delia. Delia was really hard to evaluate because it just doesn't flower too much. Then we had again, geranium equal to salvia, which was the same as before and the impatience. And then I also had snapdragons in here and they, those all came up as those least sensitive. The main thing that I used to go and evaluate this injury was from the reduction in flowering. And so I'm sorry, I had, I just took this out of the paper and there was no other way of really cutting and pasting it in. So on the bottom graph is the Trimac. And you can see that, that as you're increasing your rate, the flowering generally goes down. The next one's the 214D and the top one's the dicamba. The reduction in flowering was most obvious of course in the more prolific flowering, excuse me, species such as sweet elisam. But what I thought was really interesting was that with impatient salvia and snapdragons, they actually produced more flowers with those lethal rates of dicamba compared to the non-treated. Not that well, you know, it was significant in some cases. And we all know that these synthetic oxen at very low amounts can actually promote growth and are used in the greenhouse industry for just that. What we also saw, what I also saw was that all those rates of 214D reduced flowering except for that lowest rate with geranium and snapdragons. So again, of that, it seemed like 214D was much harder on my annual bedding plants than dicamba. And here's just a few pictures. The top one is our adoratum or floss flower. The one on the right is the non-treated and then you have the trimet. And then on your left, you have the 214D. Likewise, the sweet elisam, the untreated or non-treated. You see here, actually the trimet looks a little rougher on the sweet elisam in comparison to the 214D. When we look at then on the top, it's impatient. We really, it's hard to see much difference on that. What the 214D did is it really just stopped it from flowering and well, or delayed it at least for a period of time versus then treated. Now with the marigolds, you can see the trimet went and started to cause that. It didn't stop the elongation of that flower stem, but it started to kink it. And then the 214D really kind of stopped it again in its tracks. Snapdragons on the top. You can see again here, the trimet looks to be a little bit harder than the dicamba on it. And then sweet salvia, red salvia, I don't know why I said that. Then treat it non-treated there on your right. And you can see here the 214D really just stopped that from flowering and pretty much really stopped any kind of flower production there. And then I didn't have this in the study. I didn't have enough plants to really have statistical differences. And it was really hard to see much differences. This is gazania. And really what I didn't see much injury with dicamba at all. And you can see just get some of that stem of that flower stem epinasty, but otherwise very, very subtle differences with gazania. With geraniums, didn't see too much with the dicamba, but you can see with the 214D, that flower stem got thickened. And you can see it caused kind of some cupping just, but you can also see a lot of epinasty that was occurring with those petioles. And here is our petunias. And again, you didn't see much epinasty with the dicamba and the twisting of the flower stems, like you did with 214D, both of them caused those petals to kind of reflex backwards. And then they really caused, they hastened the flower death. And so the flowers, if they were open, they didn't stay open very long. And a lot of them wouldn't even open. So what about vegetables? Well, you know, aesthetics is one thing, but now we're talking about, we don't just look at our vegetables, we consume them. So it's a much different situation. And so with this, there is no minimum residue level for these herbicides on vegetables. None of them are registered on vegetables. So those companies will not do any kind of testing to find out a minimal residue level that is acceptable on them. So really no level is acceptable. And the other problem is, especially the solanaceae, tomato, pepper, potato, even eggplant, they're really sensitive to these plant growth regulator herbicides, as are your foliage like lettuce and spinach, along with peas and beans. Peas are probably the least sensitive because a lot of times you'll get enough cuticle that you can not have as much of that uptake. So, you know, with this, the pesticide product label is the law. So if you're going, if you do see that you have non-target edible crops that have been injured by these herbicides then, and it doesn't take much to cause much injury that you can see, really the fruit or food produced by those plants is not recommended for eating because we just don't know what is the minimal residue level that is safe on these. And the same is true with composting. And I know Carrie's going to be talking about this next in that you have to be really careful on when you use lawn clippings to go and help prevent weeds from coming. And a lot of people go and I use lawn clippings in my garden as well to go and slow down the evaporation of the water as well as reduce weeds from coming up. But you should wait for six weeks after that application before you use any lawn clippings. So six weeks after that lawn's been sprayed. And that doesn't mean, oh, I'm waiting six weeks and I'm going to have this super long, you know, tall grass. And then I'm going to cut it all off and go and use it in my garden. No, you'll still go and do your weekly mowing. And after six mowings, then start collecting your grass clippings. If you want to put them into your garden. And there's certain products like clove, paralleled and combinations that have herbicide combination products that have clove, paralleled, you know, that have are now discontinued for use on lawns. And that's because the residues that were in those grass clippings, even after they were composted cause problems. And so, and even after if you wait it for six applications, they still cause problems from the grass clippings and they injured the vegetable plants. And then they see the commercial production of zucchini in which I would be so upset if I ever saw something like this. And it was because it wasn't, this is, hey, that they brought in, probably as an organic producer and they've spread the hay around thinking that they were going to help with the weed control. And what they did know is that the, the hay had been gone and sprayed for broadleafs with clove, paralleled, and thus causing all this injury. So anytime when labels containing clove, paralleled, or even now there's a newer one, which is in that same herbicide family. It's amino, paralleled, and they're not labeled again. They're not labeled on, on lawns, but they are labeled for pastures. And so if those labels aren't followed in the hay, manure, grass clippings, or even compost containing these materials, they can make their way to a garden or landscapes and cause that soil contamination and herbicide injury to those non-target plants. So the thing to do is be really, really careful in those instances and especially with these combination products, you really have to go and make sure that you look at the label and really understand what is there. There's so many times that I had a farmer bring in a tomato sample and they're going, I don't know what happened. And he goes, must you drift it from across the road or something like that? And we end up finding that, oh yeah, in the fall, he applied something like clove, paralleled to go and control his weeds on the place or in the lawn because he had that herbicide. And then in the spring, they used the grass clippings and they ended up causing injury to their tomato plants. So with that, I think that is it. And I probably, hopefully I'm on target. They did a great job, Arlene. Thank you for staying on time. We appreciate it. We got a veteran group here tonight. They've gone through this before and so they're easy to manage. Okay. We're going to open it up to questions. And Mary has a question that can scroll down on the bottom and type your question, your Q and A. We have a couple of questions. One about your research here. When you, Harleen, when you said injury, does that, is that the same as visible symptoms or did you do any chemical testing or? No, good. Excellent question. That was visible symptomology. The hardest part with these plant growth regulators and doing some kind of a test for residue in the plant is they're quickly metabolized. And so if you aren't out there right away, and I've seen great growers where, I mean, you see the injury, they collect it, leaves two days later, they couldn't find anything in there. So very difficult to go and find residues. And it takes such a small amount of soybean growers from that out with dicamba, that soybeans are so sensitive to dicamba that any, it just doesn't take much and you see all kinds of symptomology. Okay. We have another question here. Let's say the long care services commentary yard. Is there any material that you would recommend that you could use to protect the plants or shrubs from getting sprayed upon? Well, of course, a physical barrier, but who wants to go and put up a brick wall? But I did think it was interesting. I was reading an article where they were trying on tomatoes. They were trying to use your wilt proofs. Oh, really? Go and reduce the injury. And what they found was that they could reduce anti-transference, they could reduce the injury, but they couldn't eliminate the injury. So I think that's something that I want to start to investigate is looking at, okay, how can you use those anti-transference on bedding plants and, you know, make that application the day before someone comes and be able to really reduce that amount of injury from any kind of potential off-target movement. Yeah, I would just say that long care service communication is so important that you will not tolerate spray drift. And also you don't have to be spraying dandelions two or three times a year. So the best offense is just have no long care service out there spraying just maybe just in the fall one time does a pretty good job. I agree. That fall application is amazing. And then you can, you know, if you, a little dandelion there, it's almost therapeutic. They're beautiful fallers. Can you describe a little bit more about that spray gun that you used in your research? Yeah. Okay. So it's, it's, it's, oh, it's just, it's called a spray gun. And basically it's a, it's putting out like four times the volume and it has much larger holes for the spray. And so it's more like droplets, large droplets instead of little spray droplets. And most of, most of the lawn care businesses will be using something like that. Just because in a residential location, you never know what kind of wind currents because of buildings, how wind direction can change and all that kind of stuff. And so with those larger droplets and it doesn't, it makes, it doesn't really produce any fines because there's very little pressure with that because of the so much larger volume that you're, that they're spraying with. Okay. We have a comment from someone that says that if you want specific information for North Dakota. And the label for North Dakota plants go to the www.KellySolutions.com slash ND. That must have the appropriate label. If you have a question, always follow the label. That's really the key. Okay. Here's another question, Harleen. How concerned should we be of the vapor drift from long chemicals? That's a general question and are we concerned about herbicide residual on a new garden spot? Okay. So two very loaded questions. As far as vapor drift, you know, most of the compounds that are, that's one nice thing about being in North Dakota. So the esters for 24D are more volatile than the amine formulation. But it's, you know, it's more of a chemical. So the esters when you're getting above 85 degrees, Fahrenheit is when you start to be concerned about volatilization. Well, we don't, we don't get that many days above 85. And those occur mid July. Who in the heck is going to, should be spraying during that time of the year? No one should be. So I don't think with the formulations available now that volatilization, especially with 24D dicamba. Yes. They were showing this with the farmers and the soybeans. But again, soybeans are extremely sensitive. They're, you know, that canary in the mind, which is the key indicator. And so, so I wouldn't be concerned about. Vapor drift. And now I already forgot the second question has to do with how about the concern of a herbicide residual. Yeah. Yeah. And carryover. So if you have a new guarding, I guess it depends if it was in the past, if it was a part of a yard that cattle were at, or a pasture where cattle could have been grazing or that they could have been spraying something like graze on, which has the clover pyramid in it. Or even, you know, some of these other ones, piclaram, which has a very long residual, but the herbicides that are registered for use on lawns today don't have that long of a residual. So I wouldn't be concerned with that unless it was some area that was completely void of plants, which indicates that they use the soil, which has very long residual and you probably don't have to worry about trying to grow anything there for a while. Right. Yeah, I would agree with that. Usually for a homeowner, if they're going to start a new garden out of a lawn, they probably use glyphosate or the traditional roundup. And again, the whole key is to read the label and they'll tell you, you know, actually you can rip, you can, you want to wait till the glyphosate works, but usually the label that says like three days has very short residual, but usually you give it a couple of weeks for the chemical to work, but those, that trim act does have a more persistent residual. You got to read the label carefully. Even with lawn clippings, read the label. There's some, some very common products that you see at the garden center, they will say on the label, do not use lawn clippings. Period. Yeah. Four weeks, six weeks just don't do it. So there's some real persistent chemicals, even on the garden center shelf. Well, and I think a lot of that labeling is, it's better safe than sorry. Right. And so they can't, they can't go and how are you going to, how are they going to prove that you didn't wait those six. And it's just, it makes litigation all that kind of problem. And so, and I agree with you as far as the glyphosate, you know, usually you want to wait about a week because you, if you have perennials and you start working that up after three days, something like quack grass, you're just going to cause yourself major, major problems. Canada, so if you don't wait a week to really kill those perennials, all you're doing is spreading more all over the place because you're going to get all these little roots, little ride zones or creeping root systems. And you're just going to distribute them all over your garden area. And you're going to be really in a lot of headache. Okay. Here's a question again about those spray guns. Is there anything available to homeowners that is a duplicate of a spray gun in terms of the off target moves or herbicides? You know, like what about opening the nozzle of a homeowner type spray? So it sprays larger droplets. Is that the way to go? Or should we spray it a lower pressure? So you can go both ways. And most of the time those pump up sprayers, you can go and open it so that it makes a very small cone type spray. And those are much larger droplets. You don't really want to have a stream just coming out from there because then you're going to just get a lot of bounce. And it's going to be, then you can also cause problems. But then also don't pump it up so much. You can do more, you know, a couple of pumps spray and a couple of pumps more. A lot of times you got those backpack ones that you can just do one little pump and some spraying and you won't build up your pressure so high. So there's both things need to be done to go in and get larger droplets. Okay. So we're going to go through a lightning round here to kind of whip through some questions. What do you think is the greatest factor affecting spray drift? Is it the high air temperature or the wind speed? Wind speed. Okay. Great. How long does it take for a garden to recover. From being treated. Affected by corporate quote, pure lead. Oh, Ah, That's a, that's a good question. So I did a study. Somebody brought in some potatoes. And they said, Um, as a commercial grower, they were growing, growing those potatoes for seed. And they were told, they were asked, did you use anything like cold, pure lead, any kind of cold, pure lead products? And they said, no. Well, all sudden the potatoes came up looking kind of funky. Um, And we took those potatoes and we planted them back as seed. And still we saw symptoms. Um, I'm not sure it breaks down though in solanaceae. I'm not sure co-pure, co-pure lead ever really breaks down. Uh, that much in those plants. Yeah. And in a, in a contaminated soil. I think, you know, three to five years is not uncommon for it to persist. And there are tests that a gardener can do to see if their soil has been cleaned up. So to speak, you know, you can put like peas and beans are very sensitive. So there's recommendations about doing some monitoring. So I get a, get like three clay pots and mix it up with 50% garden soil. And then you know, in a contaminated soil, I think, you know, you can put like three pots and mix it up with 50% garden soil, 50% potting soil and plant your peas and beans. And then also have three other pots that just have the potting mix. And then grow them and then see if you can see a difference in the performance of the plants. So those are like, uh, What do you call those kinds of plants that you scout with, you know, monitoring. Yeah. So, but three to five years is not uncommon. So you know, you can put like municipal garden with municipal lawn clippings. That can also be contained in me because they all, people who have perfect lawns, they spray a lot and they, they can use some of these persistent chemicals. Okay. Let's see. It got some. Okay. How do you want to kill clover? A clover cover crop before you plant vegetables. What herbicide do you want to hit it with? I think it's a good idea to use a plant. I wouldn't use anything with the residual. I agree. And, uh, How do we, how do we stay ahead of, uh, oxalis? Again, oxalis is one of those. Where it just like crab grass, it, it really needs to have for that seed, some sunlight. So a thick turf grass is, and a healthy turf grass is the best way. It's the best way. It's the best way. Um, Excluding that light so that you don't have the, it's all is coming in. But it's so small. You can just pull those out. Yeah. How about creeping Jenny? Are you a fan of that? Yes. Well, creeping Jenny. Um, of course you're, you're trying Mac is, is good. But I also, back when I was at Iowa state, I looked at, um, you'll 20 meal team borax. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. For some reason. Creeping Jenny. Ground Ivy, right? No, that's creeping Charlie. Sorry. Creeping Jenny. That one's going to be really difficult. Yeah. That's what that's the problem when we use these common names like Jenny Charlie. But, uh, You're at ground Ivy. But, you know, You know, this is where the law comes in. I like how you emphasize the law and they don't recommend that. That is true. Um, but in some areas where not near. Well, And that's another thing is it is extremely sensitive though to boron, but boron can also accumulate. So, you know, you have to go and really weigh those things and, and, but if you were, you know, strictly wanted to go and, and be organic and not, um, To be organic herbicide, uh, Then you probably have to keep at it with some kind of a vinegar non-selective vinegar type or clove oil or something like that. Just stay, Keep scorching it back. Okay. I think there's a question from Connie who's wondering like, what could a harm what kind of herbicide could have harmed a red stem willow tree? Um, I don't know. But that's hard to say. We really have to look at this. Look at the symptoms. And, um, Maybe this is a good point to say if you suspect there's, uh, some mischievous activity, you can always call the North Dakota Department of Agriculture. Their pesticide enforcement division. They are the experts and then come your property and they can do testing if necessary. So again, If you have a pesticide enforcement division that you can call upon. And the last question, a herbicide to control botrytis. But I think if you mean botrytis, that's a fungus. So you'd want to use a fungicide for that matter. Not a herbicide. If you use a herbicide, You're poor. It would kill botrytis and your plant. There you go. Okay, Harleen. Thank you very much for your presentation. Very interesting.