 Okay, good morning everyone and thank you for joining us today for the event is nuclear deployment to slow for net zero and I'm delighted to be joined by a panel of very distinguished speakers who are going to be able to Share their experiences their views on on this topic and hopefully we will learn a lot from from the discussion today of course the Discussion is taking place a few days after a series of announcements that were made first by the IAEA Director General Grossi, who's a unfortunately cannot be here today with us But who released on the 1st of December an IEA statement that was endorsed by 40 member states and you have the copy of the Statement here on the on on my left and then on the 2nd of December There was an announcement by over 20 countries for a tripling of nuclear power by 2050 So this gives us a context in which to take some Discussion around Well, can we make it has the nuclear proven to be able to decarbonize quickly There are always some discussions about Delays and constructions and so on so we will we will hear about about All these aspects. So let me introduce the speakers first. We have to my left assistant secretary Andrew light of the Department of Secretary of Energy for international affairs at DOE in the US and who's also a member of the Governing Board of the International Energy Agency. So thank you for joining us today. We have from Sweden the State secretary under the Ministry of Climate and Enterprise Daniel Westland who has also experienced of working in the Swedish Nuclear industry in Vattenfall and Fossmark and also the waste agency then to his left we have Valérie Faudon she's the Delegate general delegate or the head of the French nuclear society Sven and has also an experience working in the nuclear industry before at at a river and then Far left we have mr. Wang Kai who is Vice president from a CNNC and who will be able to share the experience of the Chinese Fleet build out and lessons learned from that Before we start the discussion the we will invite I will invite Assistant secretary light to make some opening remarks from the podium then I will ask the other speakers to Share some thoughts on the topic of its nuclear too slow for for net zero and then we will go into the Q&A part of the discussion so And and do you like please and I'll give you the microphone Okay, okay, okay, I'm using this one. Can you hear me? Oh great. Okay good so I When I was actually coming back from the IEA the last IEA governing board in Paris In October, I believe it was I got on my flight a united flight from Washington to Paris and the head Steward came to me and he said mr. Light We just want to thank you and it's like for what and he said Well according to our records you have been a mileage plus member for 30 years And I said well yes, I was a very precocious eight-year-old You know and that it's a joke that I because I did not become a mileage plus member I'm older than that right so but the point is this this is the 28th cop. This is my 26th cop I've been doing this for most of my adult life. I've seen the transformations Things have we have done so much better on the transformation of this Forum from being solely a place where people sit in rooms and negotiate text and Try to come to consensus and burn out the midnight oil to the very last second to becoming this Incredible celebration on the solution side of things and especially I'm so encouraged and in the last just the last three years I would sort of say since Glasgow the footprint of nuclear energy has been increasing and increasing increasing so that is Firmly established you can see that from walking around and seeing all of the different boosts and and and forums that we have here to do that and in that respect I could not be prouder of my team that Led with our partners in the UAE and France and others in creating this tripling nuclear energy Resolution that we were able to get that was announced on Saturday with President Macron leading and all of our leaders there Which was extraordinary and it is like it feels easy when you say things like well We're gonna triple by 2050 and we're gonna double this by 2030 and you know an on and on and on and our eyes can glaze over as what is meant by this But what really what we felt in finding what was originally 22 signatories that were on Saturday is now Already in just a couple days up to 24 and we got I was in a bilateral meeting with Croatia yesterday Who joined in real time and said we are number 24 This is not just a question of bringing a community of countries together in order to be resolved to Committed to expanding the role of nuclear as a source of dispatchable carbon-free Baseload power as a solution to climate change as a creator of jobs in our countries But also very much so to do things that we as long overdue Creating a community of countries that will go to the international finance institutions and say nuclear must be treated The same way as you were looking at every other solution to climate change And I think that that is a very important step forward and then one that we are going to see there But like I said the problem is this because in my 30 years of working in forums like this one One of the things we got wrong is that our models were too conservative. So while we see an acceleration on the solution side Unprecedented and when you look at for example the dramatic drop We were completely wrong on how fast for example the price per kilowatt hour for solar would drop to just take one example And how fast a country like India for example could deploy Gigawatts of solar power in a span of time that we never thought possible for any region of the world Especially in poorer countries of the world that were stretched We're seeing climate impacts that are unprecedented We're seeing every day Death tolls rise because of climate-juiced impacts We are seeing billions of dollars in damages, and we're not seeing a let-up on that. We're seeing Open discussion of solutions that we've never dreamed of in previous decades because things are getting harder and harder and so the only the the the framing of this panel is Is nuclear too slow is brilliant because exactly the kind of question We need to ask for everything on the solution side because we're simply out of time I for example is just on a panel on interconnectivity in ASEAN in just a second ago and the question there was about creating the More integrated grid in Southeast Asia and at one point I sort of said There's no time left for demonstration projects. There's no time We can't do demonstration projects anymore They're not worth the time you put into them unless they are so big They essentially are operational and they are and they transform economies So this is exactly the question that we need to ask about nuclear. I Was in a conversation yesterday I won't say which government With someone who may become a new energy minister in their government in In a country that actually does have an active nuclear program And when I sort of asked if you become the new energy minister, will you? Continue right the program of your government and This is the problem we face because whether it is real or whether there's a perception the answer was Well, this is an industry that overpromises and underdelivers everything Goes into cost overruns. Everything takes too long We have had experienced our own versions of this in the United States And again, I think that is wrong with respect to the totality of the projects that the country's represented Here and everyone else who involved in the nuclear industry is doing but it is a perception that is pervasive And so we need a concentrated answer to it And we need to work together on that as a global industry to cement this because there is no way now It's easy for us to sort of say if you're a pragmatist about climate solutions as I am then you have to be in favor of all the above solutions which I am in which the by demonstration Absolutely is But you must have a filter and you must have defensible case That you can be fast enough and quick enough to be on the pace and the scale for example that we've seen Some other parts the industry move forward on and that means a number of things one thing that I think that it means is it means that we have got to Absolutely Come together on streamlining finance So I mentioned the sort of push in the tripling nuclear pledge on lobbying the IFIs on that and that's got to happen again and again and again Secondly, it means that we've got to build a stronger relationship between our governments and our industries And so I was a particularly particularly happy to see the Japanese leadership and the G7 this year in the energy ministerial Track which I'm the lead negotiator on for the United States for the first time ever It's embarrassing to say this for the first time ever in the history of the G7 We had a business forum at the energy ministerial long long long overdue the Japanese first-ever business forum in Sapporo was nuclear Bold of them obviously given the diversity of views on nuclear among the G7 parties But absolutely essential and necessary so that we are bringing bringing these tighter relationships between them Secondly, I think that competition is good in this industry. It is absolutely essential I think that the world of SMR's is going to be better than the current world that we have a nuclear just because it gives us a diversity of solutions Because it gives us ability not only to provide electricity But also to use nuclear and industrial decarbonization and in in district heating in many solutions in in in far away Communities I was in Iceland just a month ago for the Arctic forum and there we talked a lot about the use of nuclear and polar regions and isolated places There's all these ways in which this new technology that we have all Invested in in one way or another gives us so many more options We will be competitive. This is good for the business model This is good for the global growth of the industry and the rigor of the industry and overcoming these hurdles to make Sure that you were on time and at budget when you promise to do something that is something we all need to compete with each Other and force each other to do better and Because we know that this is a complicated environment For example where if Westinghouse gets a contract as they just did in Poland to build three AP 1000s and Potentially three more coming coming in the first ever Nuclear build civil nuclear build that Poland has ever had because they did not have a nuclear industry when they were Under the sphere of the Soviet Union We've now got to we know that Westinghouse cannot build the entire thing We know that there for example are parts of that package of those first three reactors They're gonna need to go to the other providers for example for the turbines They're gonna need to go to a number of reactors for hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts And so this is where again we need coordination So once we go through competitive tender processes, which I absolutely believe in we've got to then figure out How do we work most effectively together to not dawdle not go through months and months and months of technology selection But to work effectively together and that means talking about the contingency plans before a tender process is even and that is a coordination I think the private sector owes us and thirdly I think that we need to find the political will To work together to come up with the best answers. I must say that I am enormously impressed with Nuclear energy association with all of our industry associations in the ways in which they've recruited actively squads of youth to get out there To to to to help to spread the word about the role that nuclear will play in climate solutions We need more of that We need political will to get each other's backs to make sure that we are Resolutely part of the solution moving forward because we know that about the other the the extent problems We know about the concerns about safety. We know about the concerns about waste We have the most we have an enviable amount of international coordination through the IAEA for example I've said before as a former recovering. I should say climate negotiator in this forum for the United States. I Wish that we had the kind of tight coordination in the framework convention that we actually have through the IAEA For moving forward on practical solutions for having an acceptable pathways for the minimum That's needed to move forward to find these solutions and because we already have that foundation Which now goes back 50 years going back to President Eisenhower's Adams for peace speech and The launch of the IAEA and those forms which we have all dedicated to work through we have that foundation We have that we can now turn into an engine for the political will that will cement our role in this And so there's a lot more I can say I'm sure the panel will say much more on the growth of SMRs And all those things and I'm happy to talk about what the United States is doing But I think that what I wanted to speak to here is really what we can all do together While we are competitive in order to move these solutions forward and cement them as part of our net zero future. Thank you Thank you for your inspiring words and the microphone is here, sorry and also for for drawing attention to to to the to the challenge to the fact that the Industry has tended to over promise, but we will hear from the from the different speakers how what best practices what experience we can draw from the past to Address the the challenge the events this morning before before The current one was about decarbonizing hard to abate sectors How to use nuclear power to decarbonize and produce sustainable aviation fuel decarbonized steel industry? so the challenge is enormous that the number of Reactors that we will need to build collectively is also a very high so Looking forward to to the discussion now and I will ask a secretary Westman to Share some thoughts about the question is nuclear power too slow for net zero your country has Taken some some some very ambitious steps recently Recognizing that you will need nuclear power. Maybe you can explain a little bit the context Yeah, sure. Thank you. We've known all along, but I'll tell you a bit about what's going on I wrote my PhD thesis on minor actinides and how to transmute them in fast spectrum reactors And now they made me state secretary or deputy minister if you like for the climate and environmental minister And I claim that there is a good reason for this because nuclear and and the climate mitigation work is Intertwined in a very in a very distinct way And I'll try to give you few words on the Swedish example to show you why this is Sweden is approaching deep decarbonization. We've cleaned up electricity and heat decades ago electricity was Fossil free around 1985 when we completed the build-out of the nuclear program heat we Still burned some fossil fuels all well even after the year 2000, but now it's gone and we are The fossil fossil fuels we still have left is basically plastics from from domestic waste We're trying to do something about that but that includes recycling plastics And you know so I claim that heat and electricity has been cleaned up The background to this was not the climate. It was different different things first of all Economic progress and the connection we had at the time back in the 60s and 70s when the decisions to build the nuclear power plants were made We had a strong connection between electricity consumption and growth So to continue growth We thought at the time that it was necessary to rapidly expand electricity production Hydro power had been the build-out was completed We wanted to save the last four rivers and we turned to nuclear power the option We had at the time was oil and there were studies for Massive imports of oil to operate big oil powered plants luckily we choose the nuclear path and The main reason for that was also not climate. It was Geopolitics we wanted to be more independent from oil imports We commissioned 12 reactors in the years 1972 to 1985 That makes us the fastest. That's the fastest addition of clean energy. The world has seen In exception for the Icelandic And the Norwegian build-outs of hydro which was very fast due to the low populations of those countries But if you look at the per capita extensions, Sweden is the The fastest addition of clean electricity Our wind expansion in recent years has also been quite Impressive, it's in place 15 or so of rapid clean energy additions The United Arab Emirates addition of clean energy with the Baraka plant will also be among the fastest So that's quite impressive that you can do that in a new country today When we built the fastest we were having one reactor per one million people under construction So if you expand that to a global level, you can ask yourself, it's tripling on nuclear power possible Yeah, I claim it would be We can build a lot more reactors and we can do it even in in countries that are not as well off as My country is in 1965 when we took the first decision to to build a light water reactor We were not a rich country even compared to most countries today, Sweden's per capita Economy at the time was very low Despite this we managed to build the 12 reactors in 13 years or commissioned them in 13 years Deep decarbonization is something else than just reducing emissions reducing emissions You can do it by energy efficiency or by adding some weather dependent electricity production and you will reduce your emissions But eliminating Emissions means that everyone in every sector has to go all the way to zero Everyone has to have a plan for their fossil emissions in their activity and their daily life We have to do this together because people can't do it by themselves so main main tool we have is Electrification and that of course is because the three means of clean electricity that we know of that can be expanded on a big Big scale is solar wind and nuclear and all of them produce electricity. So that means electricity electrification becomes vital So if we clean up electricity, that's the first step second step is to electrify everything or basically everything Now my country cleaned up electricity in 1985, but now when we're entering deeply carbonization We need to get rid of coal in in iron making. We need to get rid of fuels in the transportation sector and some parts of the industry that we didn't electrify yet That means that we have to do things differently and we had to have have to add much more clean electricity Now people have been arguing that we can just add electricity That's not the case and it's been obvious to us in recent years that if you just add electricity You can't add electricity consumption We've added lots and lots of wind power 14,000 megawatts That's more than that's twice they installed the nuclear capacity It's more than the at par with the hydro capacity But we couldn't really add any consumption Because the electricity system is not about production of electricity. It's about a system It's a working system of production distribution and consumption and all the parts has to work together And unless they do that you will not be able to add consumption So now we realize that we have to build a lot more dispatchable capacity We're not building any more hydro plus the potential is not that big So the the dispatchable tool we have at hand is nuclear Basically the other options would be biofuels which we cannot expand at the scale necessary. It might be The fossil fuels which for obvious reasons can't be expanded So that's the reason why we now have to expand nuclear at the pace. We're talking about we're talking about doubling our electricity production in Roughly 20 years from 150 160 actually to 300 terawatt hours or more Hydro is responsible for half the production today Which gives us a very flexible system since we can turn the plants on and off and save the water for later Now when we double the system without increasing hydro hydro is going to go to one-fourth That means that more much more dispatchable capacity has to come from nuclear The plan the government has proposed Includes that well the goal is to have two big reactors or course something corresponding to two big reactors at in place in 2035 and then rapidly expanding that to adding corresponding to 10 big reactors or 30 or 50 or so small ones if you wish by 2045 We also allow more sites which opens up for more applications when we Open up to build smaller reactors along the coast in the north We can use them to power or to heat our paper industry so that we can use the biomass that we burn there today for producing fuels for the planes and ships So in summary we cannot expand the power system without dispatchable capacity. That's been quite obvious to us after a few years of trying Nuclear power is the only dispatchable option available to us Even though we have forests and rivers in many other countries. It's really the only option available and This makes nuclear expansion a prerequisite prerequisite for electrification Which in turn is a prerequisite for for solving the climate Mitigation issue and this will be obvious to everyone everybody everywhere. So I urge you all to Plan ahead for deep decarbonization for eliminating emissions. Do not settle with a plan a word Ideas for how to reduce them. You need to plan all the way to the end. Thank you so much thank you for sharing the vision of how to how to get to net zero and and and Identifying that nuclear is is really part of your your your solution mix and in terms of deploying Deploying nuclear we calculated that to triple globally Nuclear capacity by 2050 we would need to bring in every year around 33 gigawatts of nuclear every every year And and actually in 1984 and 1985 This is what the world was connecting. So it has been done in the past But of course a lot needs to be to be done to to be in that situation to to replicate this experience Valerie you are representing a country that also has decarbonized quickly with a Rapid build out of the nuclear fleet. What does the title of this event inspire? And what would you like to share? Yeah, so I said we did it and we would like to do it again So in France the story looks very much like the Swedish story In the beginning of the 70s a 70% of our electricity was coming from full-size fuse and maybe oil When we had the first of oil shock in 73 The number one consumer of oil in France was edf And so we managed to decarbonize in 25 years and to go from 70% fossil fuel in the electricity production to less than 10% we build 58 units in 25 years and So it's not as fast as what you did, but it's quite fast and I have to say there's very impressive figures that impresses me a lot Is that we managed to decouple? We managed to decouple CO2 emissions from GDP if I take what we did between 1980 and 1985 we decreased our CO2 emissions at the country level by 30% while we increased GDP by 20% so That means the power of nuclear so when we try to understand What we did well We think that really One big factor is that there was a lot there was a government plan We had visibility on a number of units that we had to build and that gives Confidence for the supply chain to invest in their plants and also hire people and train them so they really had a plan and confidence in this plan so they could invest and And of course increase their competence and build you know the ability to build fast so That's what we want to do now so When when we hear about Well, nuclear is too slow. I think the thing where nuclear is Incredibly fast and beats everyone is for long-term operations So we have a huge long-term operation programs, which is very much inspired by the US one And so right now we're bringing all the units from 40 You know a first unit are reaching 40 years old So we're bringing them to 50 and we want to bring them to 60 And we don't know yet whether we can go beyond 60, but that's probably the fastest and most competitive thing we can do but then we want to build again and So learning from the past we want to build a continuous industrial program, so we're Right now preparing a low for 40 EP 14 EPRs. So six plus eight before 2050 So why EPRs? It's because we want we want we want to ensure electricity Security so we want to build a lot of capacity on the existing sites that we have so that means I starting 1935 we have to bring one EPR online every every year For the domestic program, so we currently have plans to hire a hundred thousand people In addition to our existing two hundred thousand employees to be able to execute on the program So in addition to the EPR program, which is really targeted with LTO program as You know making sure guarantee the security of supply for electricity We have an SMR program and also an advanced modular program So right now we have an EPR an SMR program gen three called a new ward which will be able to do Hydrogen with high temperature Electrolysis as well as heat of course and we are all this advanced small companies We are 15 of them that can do industrial heat and so forth in a program, which is very similar to the US one So we forgot to hydrogen. We have a government program to bring to be able to produce 700,000 tons of hydrogen by 2030 and we'll use our grid Because our grid is decarbonized so we see where a Situation where the Electrolyzers are close to the consumption sites mostly industrial sites because we can do that because our grid is decarbonized So we're struggling with the European Commission for that because they have a vision which is very renewable hydrogen But we're getting through because we have this alliance of 15 countries that are pro nuclear in Europe now and The next stage for us now after hydrogen will be a heat because even if we're going to electrify everything We believe that by 2050 we'll have 50% of the energy consumption will be Electricity versus to 25% now, but the other 50% is heat and We don't have enough biomass So we count on the SMRs and the advanced modular reactor to be able to help produce Urban heat to develop urban heat networks as well as ingestual heat to be able to decarbonize. Okay, that's a story. Thank you Thank you, Valerie Mr. Wang Kai China has been leading in the construction of nuclear reactors in the last two decades So maybe for you the question Nuclear deployment is not too slow in China. You have been building quite fast But at the scale of the energy demand of the country What do you see? How do you see nuclear? Playing a role a bigger role in the decarbonization of the country. Yeah, thank you Well, I come from the working level of Nuclear company, so maybe I do not have the strategic view as gentlemen and madam But I will share you what I'll share with you what China is doing now for a reference. Okay So first of all, I would like to extend my thanks to the IAEA and Anri and the director Huang for inviting me here Well, I think it's a reasonable choice to to to invite me because China is really Indispensable when you talk about nuclear deployment in the world right now Because China is building the biggest number of new units in the world now Although China hasn't didn't join the statement of the 22 countries for a tripling for tripling the nuclear install capacities By 2050 China has taken its position by actions Right now China is building 24 reactors which is the biggest number in the world and accounts for one third of the total number of New units in in the world under construction Well, most of them are 1000 megawatt reactors and China keeps a rhythm of approving eight as six to eight new units every year So we start construction of six to eight new units every year if we keep that rhythm We will have 115 reactors under in operation by 2035 So China will achieve the goal of tripling the tripling the total installed capacity of nuclear by 15 years earlier than 2050 Well, China is also doing his work on developing new Developing a series of different size sizes of nuclear reactors We're not working. We're working not only on 1,000 megawatts. We're also working on SMRs and the generation for reactors On in September this year. IEA hold held Workshop in China in Hainan province for SMRs and why because there China is building an SMR and it will be on in commercial operation by 2025 so the the delegates visited this working working site of this reactor and See what is see the construction. Well, China is also developing HDG are high temperature a gas cooled reactors as the generation for SMR well that The pilot project is already in operation and will be in commercial operation next year Well, China is also working on the multi-purpose Utilization of nuclear technologies such as madam has said hydrogen heating and Seawater desalination. Well, we has already we have already some projects of heating provided by nuclear, but we're still working on R&D for the desalination and Hydrogen because the the cost the cost is still high. We want to improve the cost effectiveness and compatibility of the nuclear for Hydrogen and the desalination well, so China is working very hard on the development and Application of nuclear for the goals of net zero Thank you. Thank you. So you mentioned you mentioned the the issue of reducing costs Andrew in your in your opening remarks you were citing solar and how the cost of solos gone down dramatically There is hope that for small modular reactors By deploying them in large numbers that their cost would also go down. So The US is is very much looking at SMR technology as one of the key nuclear technology for for decarbonization What needs to be done to support this? SMR deployment in large numbers. What is the US government doing to to to enable that? Thank you So all in all the United States has invested about three point three billion dollars I mean, I think actually that's a conservative estimate It doesn't actually count all of the programs going back and several administrations to incubate SMRs primarily through our Idaho National Lab On advanced reactors and I think that many other countries have obviously invested a lot and I'm incredibly encouraged Wang Kai To 2025 is truly impressive for first commercial deployment. So we will all 2035. Okay, right, okay All right. Well now we have now we have a race. I thought we'd already lost but okay. Good to know good to know I'll take that home. I was panicking there for a second But the the but that's good, right? That is that's and I think that's an appropriate time scale to sort of think about these things But I think that just to be very brief and to answer your question I think that there's a bunch of things that we need to do beforehand before the first reactor Goes online and is producing power that someone is paying for I think that one of the things that we need to obviously is to work on diversification of fuel supply for SMRs the world Cannot tolerate with this incredible technology about to come online again Dramatically increasing the sectors in which we can deploy SMRs including desalination a great point in hydrogen and others We've got to make sure that we've got a diversification of support fuel supply so that no one country has Cornered the market on that so that what could potentially who knows what things will happen in the world Which would slow down our ability to deploy as fast as possible and in many and many Uses as possible if we've got to narrow a supply chain there It would be true for any sector of the energy economy And so it absolutely must be something that we work on for SMRs And I think that we've seen a lot of political will to try to get us there Um, secondly, I think that we need to have advanced plans for integrated systems The really exciting thing about SMRs again is how we can see them as part of an integrated system That includes renewables that includes lots of other energy platforms That can be that cannot that can provide the base load dispatchable power on top of existing renewable fleets that might already be out there And I think those something we talk about a lot and the question is how can we go ahead and pre build for example our grids to handle that kind of integration so that you're not doing we have an Difficult problem in the united states. We're not having a problem creating more Renewable energy and getting more decarbonized energy Plants that are built we're having now to build a grid to catch up with that activity We need to flip that and have our integrated systems already in place so that we can then on board Write those energy production centers into that and be able to move forward faster two more points Obviously we need to all work on our regulatory structures And I think I would sort of say the united states for example could be faster Absolutely here. We need to be do more do more information sharing about how we're all handling What are the differences in which we will have regulatory structures that will deal with a very different kind of multiplicity of uses and multiplicity of kinds of technologies that are deployed in order to do that And finally I will just have a plea for governance. I'll call it governance sanity and so the the what I mean here is This is perhaps the worst name of anything that has ever ever been conceived In the four walls of the cop in 28 years, but later actually earlier today We had the presidency had a hydrogen Presidency event, which was terrific and I think a lot of our governments participated in it and it's great and there many have assigned The declaration of intent on mutual recognition of certification schemes of renewable and low-carbon hydrogen and hydrogen deliverables I will not repeat that. I could never possibly remember it. No one could But nonetheless we we signed a hydrogen thing What disturbed me and disturbed our colleagues in the united states is that The embedded phrase on the hydrogen that was being promoted in this declaration was renewable and low-carbon hydrogen What's not included in renewable and low-carbon hydrogen? Hydrogen produced from nuclear energy This is just silly Right and it and and these kinds of ways in which we have sort of cleverly created You know for convenience political convenience sake ways of talking about just one of the examples of Wang Kai said Of where you can use smr's hydrogen production We need to make sure that our finance structures our government structures are all aimed and include smr's in the same bucket In which we include every other decarbonized solution that is out there in order to produce hydrogen And so this is something we've got to get through we've got to fix it And we got to make sure that we are creating a future which will be ready for the deployment of this exciting technology Thank you, and uh, you're right To to address this expansion of nuclear power. We will need finance and we will need to bring private financing into nuclear and certification or recognition of the low carbon or sustainable value of what nuclear produces is is is key and This is valet was saying a fight sometimes in the european union for for for hydrogen so maybe valet you can say a few words about The the need for for recognizing the The value of of nuclear products In the decarbonization context. I think we we're fighting for technology neutrality Like we have in the us because we have 10 rules that are going to are being discussed right now. You have the Aviation fuel directive. I mean you have lots of text and every time we have to fight To make sure that nuclear is included and the dream is what you have in the us We the ira is that it's completely technology neutral and what counts is the amount of co2 That you emit while you're producing the hydrogen. So that's really what we We would dream of Exactly, but it's much better now since we have this alliance of countries that are pro nuclear because of course we have The more we are the stronger we are when we're negotiating But it's still complicated and it's also science that speaks Exactly, even when we have the science reports, it's always very difficult Daniel We've talked about Finance we've talked about supply chain industry Recognition So policies and so on on the policy side Sweden has Pushed legislation very fast in in recent weeks even if I believe last week The law that was limiting the the number of reactors was was changed. This was this happens very quickly In some countries it takes years and years to To to change legislation. Why why is it happening so quickly in in your country? And what can we learn from from the political process that is allowing this Well, first of all, we're in a hurry and we are supposed to be climate neutral in 2045 That's just over 20 years from now And we will need at least four fifths of that time 16 years to build things So the this Present term of the government the four years we have we have to set everything in place that Makes people take those investment decisions the climate transition Happens through millions and millions of decisions by kitchen tables and in boardrooms The role of the government and the parliament is to set the conditions in place so that people can make those decisions And so that the change becomes acceptable to people so that the policy can prevail and we can continue the path towards net zero now We knew what to do We had an energy debate in sweden since our referendum a nuclear in 1980 that focused entirely on electricity and Entirely on nuclear power. We did not talk about security of supply or geopolitics or Even costs because everybody knew that electricity was always there in abundance And it was always cheap Until it was suddenly not and that was when we closed four reactors the last government closed four reactors in a very short time Or actually they claimed the market closed them But there were politics behind it. So now we lost out of 10 reactors. We lost Four of them in a very short time Which created a completely new situation so that when the voters changed the government They pretty much asked us to fix the electricity system and we knew what to do So we started doing that day one, but now So far we're only fixing legislation and policy and I hope that we've been supportive in this alliance that france is forming in the european union because As we said the wording makes a difference. That's the next step. We have to do something about to complete this Plus we have to put in in place the financing Framework for this and how to share risks between different actors Yes for you to know the european union uses the word renewable in two ways First there is a definition saying which six or whatever it is energy sources count as renewable And then it's used when you talk about non fossil So in europe there are two kinds of energy fossil and renewable So if it's not fossil, it's renewable, right? And that goes through all the documents and by mixing up the one meaning which is solar wind bio and the others counted They're listed in a definition in an act called the renewable energy directive That's one thing but then in other in other discussions we use the same word When we mean non fossil energy in sweden, we use the term fossil free all the time To include everything that solves the problem And I think without changing that we cannot We cannot have equal terms for for the tools we need to fix climate change Thank you a little bit of pragmatism also in the in the choice of words and policies To serve the the purpose of decarbonization. I think we shouldn't forget. That's the ultimate goal These words have been chosen to be exclusive. Yes. Yes. Yes Mr. Wang Kai Kai Can you share what would be your recommendation? From from the experience of the chinese industry That you would like to share with the rest of the world in terms of nuclear buildout and also deployment of different types of technologies that you are mentioning. Well, yes, in fact, um Well Well, why should uh, whether should we uh, whether we should or not to Accelerate to the deployment of nuclear that depends on many factors. I think We should not decide on one goal And for all the countries because that depends on on the country such as the size and the potential of the market energy market and the financial conditions of the country and also the experience its experience in nuclear and The manpower and talents Well, so I do believe that the answer is to the our title is the the question Is yes for countries like france and the united states But for emerging countries, it's quite complicated. I think because we're going to face a lot of challenges there I think first the challenge should be the money You know that a 1000 megawatt reactor costs At least three to five million billion u.s. Dollars And the preparation time for a new project is about three to five years And the construction period lasts about six to ten years So you invest that means you invest a lot of money And during 10 to 15 years you get nothing in return and you still have to pay the interest to the banks So that's not attractive to private sector investors at all so you know in china most nuclear owners and builders and Big banks like big financial entities like banks are state-owned enterprises So maybe that's that's perhaps the reason why china can implement the It's ambitious nuclear plan so efficiently so this So well, sorry. Sorry. So the second challenge. I think it should be the manpower and the And the manufacturing capacity well, as I said china is China is now building six to eight new units per year But china hadn't found that rhythm until many lessons has been were learned during the 20 years between 1984 to 2200 2004 China built only nine units But during the three years before fukushima china approved in one go About 26 units When the 20 when these units began construction at the same time uh, we fell into a lack of Qualified workers and engineers And we were badly short of Good manufacturers for components and equipment so we recruit and recruited and trained at once a lot of thousands of uh, the engineers Talents and workers for the sector and we built we established and and Expand expanded many suppliers and the suppliers bought a lot of equipment and machines for manufacturing Well, suddenly fukushima happened and then china had to suspend the approval of new reactors Uh until to 2015 that's about four four years And then china refined found back found back its pace of approval of new reactors to Little by little till six to eight units per year Well during the years of suspending The manpower and manufacturing capacity was were excess so overabandoned and That's that's a big waste. So my suggestion is that If you accelerate the deployment of nuclear you should do it progress progressively and uh, you should Increase the number little by little And keep it stable when it reaches when you reach a certain speed Uh, and simultaneously, uh, you should make your make sure that your Manpower and manufacturing capacity Are compatible with your speed of deployment. That's the second challenge the last one In my mind is that the balance between speed and the safety because when you are building a lot of So many reactors at once You can it is more difficult for you to ensure that every part of every reactor conforms perfectly to the strictest Safety standards So that will be tough work for the regulators and the supervisory authorities. Well, that's all. Thank you Thank you for for all these recommendations. We're running out of time. We should have had a longer session But thank you a big round of applause for all the speakers And on on some of the topics that you mentioned fine fine as we had an event here yesterday, but on friday, there will be events around mobilizing youth because we will need talent We will need to attract and create skills for for this great ambition of Doubling or tripling nuclear power by by by 2050 and help help the world to decarbonize So thank you again to all the speakers and thank you to the audience