 the nonprofit show. We are so glad you're here, and I am excited to have with us today Crystal. We call it the hot seat, but as you can tell, it's really not that hot. We're very friendly, very comforting, you know, casual. But today we have Crystal Cherry with us today, and she's here. I'm thrilled because we met in Nashville at the RAISE conference that one cause was holding. We were connected. I wasn't able to get you on while we were there live at the conference. So I'm really glad to have a dedicated episode with you here. As you bring to us a conversation that we don't talk about nearly enough, and you're sharing with us strategies that fire up our boards. So we're excited to talk to you about that. Before we jump into conversation though with you, Crystal, we want to remind all of our viewers and our listeners around the globe who we are. So Julia Patrick, hello to you. Julia is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, and I'm Jarrett Ransom, co-host, CEO of the Raven Group, also known as nonprofit nerd as I push my glasses up quite a bit and get super nerdy with our guests. I know, and all of us are nerds. Look at us today. We're all amazing nerds. But we also have to say thank you to our truly amazing partners that allow us to bring in guests like Crystal. So thank you to Blumerang American Nonprofit Academy, fundraising academy at National University, nonprofit thought leader, your part-time controller. Also thank you to Staffing Boutique, non-profit nerd, as well as nonprofit tech talk. These companies, how many episodes now did you say we're marching towards Julia? One thousand sister. Yeah, that's incredible. One zero zero zero. That's quite a bit. You know, we started at March of 2020. Julia, I just, it's a very endearing story. She said, let's do this. It's going to be a two-week endeavor. And I was like, okay, why not? I can do anything for two weeks. We don't really have much to do at that time. But here we are into our fourth year. So you missed any of those previous episodes. We've got you covered, our friends. You can find them on these platforms here. So you can scan that QR code with your smartphone and go ahead and download that app. You can also still find us on your streaming broadcast, as well as your podcast channels. So wherever you binge watch and binge listen, just go ahead and add us to the queue. Wrap it up, wrap it up. Yeah, good stuff. So Crystal, you've waited patiently, not only today, but since we met again, right in, in Nashville. So Crystal M. Cherry has joined us today. President of the Board Pro, welcome to you. Thank you so much for having me. We are excited to have you. Tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about the Board Pro. Yeah, thank you. I am excited to be here to represent my company, the Board Pro. I started it right before the pandemic after having worked in the nonprofit sector for 24 years working as a nonprofit fundraiser. And at that point, I just needed a change. I was burnt out and wanted to do something different and wanted to figure out how I can transfer my skill set into doing something powerful and impactful in the nonprofit sector. I wanted to stay and how I can use all that I had learned and experienced to still make impact. And so I just kept thinking about those board meetings that I sat in for years with many different organizations. And I just remember some of the looks on the faces of those board members, you know, akathy, boredom. And I just thought, oh my goodness, this is a space where I could land and transfer everything that I've learned from being inside and helping the boards and the CEOs of those nonprofits to prosper. So I hung up my shingle and I've not looked back. I love that because I think the power of being on the other side of the desk and working with a board and being able to witness that, good for you because that's the thing. We need more people that know what the impact of board decisions really can be and what it is. And so let's dig into this because I'm fascinated, by the way, and I'll say it at the end of the episode, your website is fabulous. So anybody who's watching this, go to theboardpro.com and take a look at it. But one of the things you advise us and you start right off with saying, start with the right board recruitment strategies. What does that look like? Yeah, I think I'm hoping now nonprofits are taking this more seriously. It used to be, you know, we just invited a book club member or a golf guy who was off next Tuesday, come to the board meeting and we'll get you voted in, you know. You got some free time, come next week, we'll get you voted in. But I think and I'm hopeful now that board members and CEOs are seeing that they have to be more strategic about who they bring in to sit on those seats and not only sit but serve, right? And so first we need to say that serving on the board is a privilege, right? And so I take it very seriously as a board consultant. And so whenever I'm tired to search for new board members, which I am, I take it just as seriously as looking for someone who's looking for a job. And so we create the job of the board description, the announcement, we create a board application. I do my search, just like you would do any other kind of search, you know, I put on social media, I go into certain groups and see if I can find places where I can announce the board opening. And then I actually interview and vet people who apply just like you would for a regular job, right? And I ask the interview questions, why do you want to serve on this board? Why is this passion resonating with you? What do you think you have to offer? Do you believe you have the commitment and the time to actually be a part of this board? And then I check references. I mean, it's just like looking for a job. And so I take this very seriously. And I think that nonprofits who do this, who really vet and screen the individuals to make sure not only if they have the right skill set, right? Because we all have different skill sets that we need to bring. But do they understand board etiquette? Do they understand board culture? Or do they understand what it really takes for them to be a thought partner to help the organization to thrive? And so and if they don't, it doesn't necessarily mean that they can't serve. It just means that we have to do a little extra work on the other side and training them those things. And I think that's where some of our organizations get lost. So I really believe that we have to do the work upfront to make sure that our board members come in, prepare, they understand the roles and responsibilities, they understand the mission, they understand the culture and what is expected of them right out the gate. And so, yeah. Wow. I love that, Crystal. And I wish there were more of you because, you know, when we look at the nonprofit landscape, we talk about this all the time, Julia, 1.8 million nonprofits registered in the U.S. And they all need board members. And I love that you said not just to sit, but to serve, right? Like they're truly here to serve, not to check a box, not to just, you know, meet attendance, like truly to serve. My question to you though is, you know, we had a guest previously, probably a couple of years now, and I thought it was really funny that they said, if you know one board, you know one board, right? Like they're all just a little different. So how do you find that match with a professional who wants to serve on an organization's board? But I know that boards are different at kind of all different levels, you know, whether it's a more mature organization and their governance is really robust, or they're more of a startup organization, and they've just passed that threshold of bringing people on the board simply because they have a pulse, right? Like they're moving needle. So how do you navigate that? Because there's some boards that are ready for some really big hitters, you know, of people of service. And then there's other board members, truthfully, Crystal, that are still trying to figure out how to run a board meeting. Yes. So I do my due diligence up front. I, you know, I make sure I do all the exploration and the discovery and the research on the organization first. I read their bylaws. I read, I scone their website. If they have a fundraising plan, I read that. I read their strategic plan. I make sure that I look at the board members to see who they are, where they work. I have them fill out a board matrix. And so we can figure out who has what skill set. And then I actually interview board current board members. I usually try to interview someone who's been on the board for many years, and then someone who might be new to get two different perspectives. And then sometimes I will even do a visioning session with them where we'll, we'll meet with, you know, two or three board members, one or two high level staff people, the CEO, and we'll meet for an hour or 15 minutes to really just kind of talk about what the organization is, where it's going, where you see itself going in the next five, 10 years, what are some things that you know you need to strengthen? What are your strengths? Like, so I really have a really good feel for who it is that I'm actually searching for. So that when I'm actually betting these individuals, I can kind of know based on what I've learned about that organization, whether or not this would be a good fit. And I'm pretty transparent. I will share with them, you know, the organization has gone through some transition in terms of leadership. I honest with them about what's going on with the organization. So they know coming in what they're getting themselves into. But I try to do all of my homework up front so that when I'm out looking, I know who I'm looking for. And they will tell me we need more women. We need more people of color. We need someone who works at Delta. We need someone who works at Chick-fil-A. I mean, they sometimes they get very specific. And so all boards are different. Some of them are grassroots. And they want folks to come in and roll up their sleeves and lift envelopes. And others want people to come in, approve budgets and go, right? And so I had to know before I search what this client is looking for. I love it. I think that's magical. And I would imagine that you ask questions at a lot of organizations have never even asked themselves at times. And that kind of leads us into our next question is how do you build a board culture and that core culture really including collegiality and reward? Because I don't think we talk about board culture enough. And we can sense it and we can be like, Oh, I love that board or Oh, I don't like that board. You know, my board experience. But talking about this specifically, what does that look like to you? Yeah, I think organizations underestimate the importance of this. And I think they really need to set the right tone when the board members come on after you onboard them and get them in and welcome them in. The culture is going to make or break that experience. Right. And so if it's a culture where I feel welcomed, it's warm. I feel open to express my ideas if I don't feel comfortable with a decision that's being made, I feel comfortable raising my hand to say I dissent. Like you have to provide that space for them. And you do that in multiple ways. First of all, you need board members need to spend time with one another, right? So just a little social time, maybe before the board meeting or after the board meeting to give people the opportunity to just kind of talk how we should weekend, how was your vacation? Oh my God, your wedding pictures are beautiful, whatever, just give them a chance to kind of get to know each other. And then once the board meeting gets started, we want to create mission moments where we are sharing something wonderful about the organization to get everyone excited and hyped about why they're serving on the board, feeling really good about it. The culture statement is really important. So the culture statement is a statement that could be one of three sentences. It could be a whole paragraph. It's something that I think should be read at every meeting, right? And the culture statement just says who we are, what we're willing to tolerate as a board or an organization or both. I'm speaking specifically as a board, but it would be great if it was in tandem with the organization, but I think each board should have its own culture statement. Okay, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I've never heard that, and I love that. Okay, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just, you know, I have samples, but it's just, you know, that we're going to have respectful debate, that we're going to take this work with all seriousness, but we're going to embed some fun in there. And just that this is Nirvana where we're all welcome. We're all allowed to say what's on our minds. We respect when people feel differently about opinions. And so put that in there at the very beginning, let your board never see, this is the culture we have here. This is what's committed and what's not permitted, right? And so there's no questions. Crystal, I love that so much. And I helped an organization create their board culture statement, especially because of this remote environment. And so they really wanted to proactively engage participation. And it's so easy to turn on our cameras. And they made that part of their culture statement truly, right? Was we will show up, you know, X amount in person, X amount on video. And when we're on video, our cameras will be on. And that was a part of the culture statement. Yes. And there are other things they can get to know one another. So for example, like I have all kinds of exercises. I created a calendar. So now that we're talking about being more inclusive, we're going to have people on our board who celebrate different holidays and want to be cognizant of that. So we're not planning anything around those holidays, not just Christmas in Hanukkah, which is the ones which we traditionally acknowledge, right? But all the holidays now so that we're all aware so and so might be out because this is a holiday for him or her family, right? I create something called Board Bingo, when that's fun even virtually, when we get to know each other, it's just like, you know, I have a kid in college or I speak two languages or, you know, I've been to Paris and people get to know each other when you start putting in. It's just a great way, a fun way for us to get to know each other. And then a day of giving together, right? And so even though we're all serving on this particular board for this particular organization, we can have a day where we volunteer together for this organization or for another organization. And so for example, I was on a board where we all did a walk for another organization and we had t-shirts made with our logo on it that said Board Member on the back. And then we all did a walk and it was just great. It was a beautiful day. We got a chance to talk and we were doing something wonderful together as a group, celebrating another organization. And so there are just things you can do to build that camaraderie and so that people get to know one another. You know, this really speaks to, as you bring together a community of board members outside of the board meeting, I can only imagine the increased involvement and impact of their service during a board meeting, right? Like, Julia, do you remember one of our guests mentioned that it took a new board member about 18 months before they are comfortable asking a question at a board meeting? But by creating some of these strategies that Crystal's provided to fire up our board members, we're creating, we're short, you were, I don't know, like shortening that gap, right? So they get comfortable with one another, comfortable to ask that question. These are such great strategies. Take us to the very beginning, right, of the onboarding process, because that's something that, you know, as we do the recruitment, as we talk about the culture. Now, what is the power of a wonderful onboarding process? What are the strategies that you share with us? Yeah, absolutely. And so we want the world to know that we're bringing on these wonderful new people to serve on our boards. I always say, go public with it, put it on your website, put their pictures and photo on social media. We're happy to announce we're onboarding these new individuals. We bring them in, we give them an opportunity to speak and tell a little bit about themselves, right? We share the mission moment, we bring in the staff, the key staff that they may want to know, the CEO may set the tone for what, the occasion, giving a little history, and then we jump right into the roles and responsibilities of being on this board. They've already seen the board description, but we repeat those again so they can see that. We hand out the board contract, right, which is just a contract. People call it a pledge, they call it a letter of agreement, but it's just a contract saying, I acknowledge and I am acknowledging in writing that I've been given the job roles and responsibilities. I understand that I am responsible too. In addition to that, I will make a personal donation of, I will agree to serve on this committee or at least one committee. I will agree to participate in one fundraising activity. And then at the bottom of that contract, it says what the organization is obligated to do in return, right? We're obligated to in return because it's just a two-way relationship. It's not just what we can get from you, but what the organization is responsible to make sure that you're trained and equipped with what you need in order for you to be a good board member, right? And so this is a contract that you're given at the very beginning. So you want to make sure that committees, committee descriptions of yesterday know what ways they are to get involved. And when I used to be on the inside, I say on the inside, I would provide my board members with a menu of ways to be involved with the organization outside of board meetings, right? Because if you're only meeting once a quarter, what happens between January and June, right? What happens between January? What am I supposed to be doing as a board member? Well, I got a whole list here, things for you to do. And so I will provide opportunities for my board members to remain engaged if they're not on a committee in between board meetings. So I love that because, you know, I think sadly, a lot of board members don't truly know what the organizations do. I mean, they might know the, you know, the mission statement or they, you know, kind of have a sense, but they don't really understand how hard the work is or where the work is done. I think we also try and shelter our board members a lot of times from the nitty gritty and how hard things are. I'm afraid of making them frightened or losing them. You know, I think there's a little bit of tension sometimes with how far do you disclose the quote, unquote, bad news or toughness of it. And there should be some balance, too, between the relationship between board and staff. But I do think that they should have some interaction. And if you have the environment where you're celebrating wins, an opportunity for staff members to come to board meetings when they've done something wonderful, whether they closed a big gift or they've, you know, started a new program with a board to hear what's going on, they can see the staff, they can hear the great things that are going on. So I think keeping them engaged in that way is really important. Huge. I'm curious to hear more about that, Crystal. I happen to see a post, I'm not sure if it was LinkedIn or another social media channel, you know, specifically inquiring from others, do you allow your staff to attend board meetings and literally to attend, right, to sit, to listen, to be present, obviously not a voting component for the staff. But I'm curious, you know, your perspective on that and where you see your clients moving, because I've seen it both ways. I've seen like complete open door policy, community members are welcome, you know, staff are welcome. And then I've seen the opposite where it's like, no, no, no one else comes in unless it's a board member or that CEO. What are you seeing is kind of like the going trend right now. Great question. Yeah. So all of the best practices that we've known all these years, we can throw all those out the window because boards are doing more. Let's do that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think people are now starting to question the hierarchy of boards, you know, whether or not we have just one board chair, whether we can have two, whether we have married people serving together on a board, whether the staff can actually serve on the board, whether the CEO can actually serve on the board. It's a way that we can maybe balance the power a little bit more so that what members sometimes come in, they make the big decisions, but the staff come in and they also weigh in on policies. And so there are lots of things that are going on right now that are questioning how we've traditionally done things. And so when I worked in the nonprofit sector, the key staff, the vice presidents and executive staff were invited to board meetings because we had to report out what was going on in our different departments. And we brought in staff periodically when they did something wonderful, when there was some big win or some new program that we wanted to talk, we would bring staff in. And so I think that's a wonderful way to keep the board apprised of what's happening. And so that the staff, I remember sometimes staff members would be peeking in the room like, what are they doing? What are they doing in there? What are they saying? And so I think it would be smart to have staff members to come in to see and hear, you know, unless some big something is being discussed to let them come in and hear what's being said and what's being decided. So some people will push back on that, but I think it's good now. I appreciate that perspective. I really do. I think there's a lot to talk about there. We probably weren't a whole separate episode on that conversation. But as we don't have too much time left and we wrap up our time with you today, Crystal, because I do hope that you'll join us again. Talk to us about one of your strategies to fire up our board. You're talking about fired up fundraising. Right. Give us the load out of this. What does that look like? Yeah. So the first thing I tell board members, the first thing you have to do is make your personal donation, right? Because you have to have some skin in the game. You can't fundraise and ask people to, to support an organization that you yourself are not supporting. So no matter how big or small we can have conversations about gift size and give or get, give or get. I mean, that's a whole nother training, but make some kind of donation, $15, $20, if that's all you have, make something so we could have 100% giving. And then we know board members are often allergic to fundraising and we have to talk about those things. Why are you fearful? You know, we know the rejection trespassing on friends, not being equipped to know how to ask. And so that's where we step in. So I have something that I call the board fundraising pop box, points of pride. And in that pop box is your case statement, is your mission statement, is your annual report, compelling stories, right? Compelling videos, the budget, the fundraising goal, right? How to make an ask, right? So everything is in this toolkit that you give to your board members. And so they come in equipped with all the, all the information that they need. And then, you know, practice role playing, telling stories to one another, the stories that you've heard, or you know, first hand about the organization. And then should you have to make an ask? You know, my college friend and I are getting together, we haven't seen each other in five years. I want to tell her about my great work, the great work of this organization and my involvement. Ask the CEO, what should I say? I'm a little nervous. I don't know how to approach the idea with her. And maybe we can do some role playing back and forth with the conversation, not necessarily making an ask just talking to her about the organization, right? Because if there's greater interest and you can connect her to someone on staff, but how do I talk about this organization is to think I can take a brochure as their annual report. Can I show her a video, right? So making sure that your board members have the tools that they need in order for them to successfully find a raise. Because in all this fear around it, I think because they just don't know. And so if we give them the tools and we equip them, I think it'll go a lot better for all of us. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I agree with you. I think that it's a fear and under education of the process because you have people for the most part that are passionate about that mission and they see the work and they see the impact and yet and they know that there has to be investment from the community into this process. Right. It's just how do you get from this point to this point? And then once you get that board member, Katie, bar the door, because then they're just like cranking. So I usually do an exercise with my board members and I start asking them about their kids, right? And they'll start to, oh my God. Oh, and Becky, she loves ballet. And so and I was like, you know, you see how you how you blossomed when you were talking about because you believe you love your child, you believe in your child, you believe they're doing good work, that same passion, you know, when you feel strongly about something and you're advocating for it, the blossoming that you experience and show expressed when you were talking about Becky is the same way that we want you to talk about your existence. You feel you feel strongly about mission. You love the work that they're doing. You're advocating for Becky, you're advocating for our mission. We advocate for ourselves and our lives every day. So that's what I tell them. Let's take the fear out of what fundraising is. You're not begging, you're not hitting anybody up for money. You're telling a great story about a wonderful organization whose mission may resonate with what you love already. So you're just aligning the two so they can see there's an opportunity for me to use my resources for you to continue to do great work. And so if we see it, if we turn it and twist it so it doesn't seem like I'm telling you a car, right? A car that you don't need, you know, like it's a legit thing. Crystal, we have a question and I'd love to ask it to you, but I also want to be mindful of our time. So the question that's come in is what about board members who may not financially contribute but they through their own fundraising efforts bring funds and donations to the organization? How would you talk to this individual? Yeah, so that's we call that soft credit when you bring in funds. Like if you get a match, you'll get a company to give, we certainly want to give you credit for that donation. However, we still want you as a as a board member to make your own personal donation. Like I said, it doesn't have to be significant. If you can't make a thousand, give us 250 but give us something. But yes, we definitely count in kind. We count when you get a match for your gift. We count when you bring money to us from colleagues and friends. Absolutely. That's all fundraising. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great, great answer. And I also say too, you know, part of fundraising is the stewardship. It's the gratitude is having board members say thank you to donors, you know, and I think even at, you know, easing them in that way to experience the power of the impact. I love your strategies. I think they're they're so doable. I love this pop box, like that to me is something. Yeah, that's fantastic that you've named it that and it's, you know, it's got all the key elements that you need. So thank you, Crystal. It's been fantastic having you. I wish our time was longer, but it's so very fast. Everyone who is thank you that has joined us live or has found this by way of one of the recordings. You have just heard the strategies to fire up your board members from Crystal Cherry. So Crystal is the president, the board pro, you live in Atlanta. Do you work beyond Atlanta into other communities all over the country and in Canada? Well, you know, when I hear Delta in Chick-fil-A that just screams Atlanta. Yeah, throw in Coke. Yeah, yeah. And you stop by Home Depot on the way. Board pro.com, beautiful website. Thank you. You know, Crystal gives a lot of information free and really has amped up the level of education and connectivity about why it's important to think about some of these strategies, instead of just complaining about your board, understanding how you can navigate and really get them fired up from the get go. And I think that's the powerful thing, not just saying, oh man, we got a bunch of, you know, underperformers, start right and figure out how you're going to navigate that. So check out the board pro.com. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, been joined by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Aram, CEO of the... As I push up these glasses. She's a nerd for a reason and I always call her my nerd, but she can be your nerd too. Hey, again, we have amazing, amazing partners that join us day in and day out. They include Blumerang American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. Again, these are the folks that have been on mission with us to really help, encourage, educate and really gather the nonprofit sector as we do every day, Monday through Friday. So again, Crystal, you have really been speaking my love language. I've learned some things from you. It has been fabulous. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to spread some board love. Board love. I love it. We all need that. We truly, truly do. We do. Oh goodness. Every day we end our episode of the nonprofit show with this mantra. I think Jared said this yesterday. We say the same words, but they mean different things at different points. It's a fascinating thing to be thinking about this, but our message is clear and it's this, to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow.