 So it is Monday, October 18th for our regular city council meeting. And our chair, Helen really is not here tonight. And so I am the action chair in her place. And I'm calling the meeting to order. I do not know if we can do the Pledge of Allegiance without flag. Okay, we have one. Tim, why don't you. We apologize for our tardiness where you're just having some technical difficulty, but we are now up online and available to you. So we're going to have instructions from our city manager just to make sure I'm exiting the building in case of an emergency, as well as a review of our technology option. Hey, we're up with technology. So we are now on the third floor of city hall. So exit options are out the door to the right and down the staircase or alternatively out the door straight down the back hallway and down the back staircase. Just a reminder to those on go to meeting that if you would like to weigh in on any agenda item, please either indicate to me in the chat and we will call on you or turn your computer or your camera on so we can see you and the chair will recognize. Thank you. All right. Thank you very much. And next on the agenda agenda review. Are there any additions deletions or changes in the order of agenda items from the board. All right, seeing none will move ahead to number four comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda and Roseanne, you turn on your camera. Thank you. And you can hear me. Okay, super. I'm going to speak quickly to make up maybe some time you've lost although not as fast as Tom Chittenden but I strive for that level of speaking. I, I occasionally send you information that I find I want to tell you I do this. Because I assume that as a retired person I have way more time to read and research than you most of you, all of you here have full time jobs and families and children to take care of so it's not as if I don't think you read but I'm, I'm doing it in effort to I've found it. I want to share with you. Tonight I want to share with you information from two articles that I read in the Burlington Free Press last week. On Thursday, October the 14th, there was an article and it was titled tech firm plans big expansion in South Burlington. And basically, it said a large company has plans to expand over in technology and they are proposing 133,000 square feet of office light manufacturing in warehouse space on 20 acre lot. The representative that spoke said they have other plans for more buildings and parking. And then they said in the article that it's going to be when asked where it's going to be they say in an undeveloped meadow. Right. Here's the thing. We don't know what the impact of this development will have on our environment, nor the amount of fossil fuels that will be used in its construction, nor the amount of fossil fuels that will be used in the long term maintenance of these buildings, because we don't ask you know, where in our LDRs. Do we require the developer to report on the environmental impact on us or on the climate. As as Tim and Matt know full well, our LDRs do require developers to provide assessments on things such as traffic and road egress and up until recently parking. There is no climate change. And even as you are talking about it and forming a climate committee, and even as the planning commission is drafting land development regulation changes. There is still not one single mention of the climate crisis, much less a requirement or query or request to do an assessment of the impact of development on the climate. The next day there was another article in the free press that at first look you wouldn't think would be related. It was about the American bumblebee going extinct. I'll just tell you a little briefly what it said, main Rhode Island New Hampshire and Vermont, Idaho, North Dakota, Wyoming and Oregon, each have zero or close to zero American bumblebees left. It says this American bumblebee was once the most common bumblebee species in North America, but without immediate action to protect it, it's going to come extinct. In the last two decades, the bumblebee population has decreased by 89% across the United States. And here are the reasons it gives for that. Climate change, pesticides, disease, habitat loss and competition from other honey bees. Here's the thing. You can actually do something about two of these reasons. They're driving the bee to extinction, habitat loss and pesticide use. There's going to be, if it goes forward, 133,000 square feet of buildings, paving over 20 acres of meadows, some of which is undoubtedly habitat. You can do something to protect that. Pesticides is the other thing that's killing our birds and our bees and our pollinators, usually over a quest for a green lawn. In this case, green is actually killing us. Cities have the authority in some cases to ban or restrict pesticide use. Cities can fix a lot of things on climate change. Excuse me, cities can't fix a lot of things on climate change, but they do have a lot of ability to take actions which do have significant benefits. One of the most powerful ways of a municipality to address climate change is through its land use policies and city ordinances. So I ask you, I urge you to insert in our LDRs an assessment from the developer of what the amount of fossil fuels that will be used in the construction and then the ongoing maintenance of the development. And what is environmental impact is on the climate and to us and to consider putting a pesticide ban in place. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you, Roseanne. Caller one. I see that you are not muted. Are you wishing to speak to us here on the council? Caller one. If you'd like to say something, feel free to speak up. Otherwise, anybody here in the room, they like to address the council. You're talking about agenda change. Nope, talking about public comment. All right, all right, very good. So we will move ahead with number five with the announcement and city managers report and I'll start here on my right. Nothing to report. Good on my left, Tim. I'm sorry to Matt, while I search Mike. All right, very good. Matt Coda. Nothing to report. I think of you too much. Okay, I did attend to BC meetings and did a few house visits. And I do have an article in the other paper. And our big last meeting potentially maybe next to last meeting of the BCA on the home appraisal appeals is this Thursday. So that is coming to close, but just want the public to know that if you did not, you know, get the service that you were perhaps hope to have, but you couldn't find the time, or it just seemed that you needed more time than was allowed. You can do this anytime every year. So just keep that in mind. This was not just a one time opportunity to appeal. All right. Could I make one more quick comment? I just want to thank all the homeowners that have allowed the BCA members to come in and inspect their homes as early as nine o'clock on a Sunday morning. You really appreciate your courageous hospitality. I know it's an inconvenience, but it's part of the process. And I thank them for that. Yep. Yep. I think a very cooperative process. I, other than the BCA have nothing to report myself. So that's an hour city manager. And Jesse Baker, who's going to give her report. Thank you very much. A couple of updates for you all in the community today. DPW will be in is installing this week, three new crosswalks along Heinzburg, Heinzburg road between Williston Road and Kennedy Drive. So folks should see those going in this week. We also have seen a lot of fire trucks driving around neighborhoods in the last week or so. Our three new recruits are getting oriented to the pieces of equipment and the street network. And we are very excited that they are all doing extremely well and will be officially on the road out of the academy in the middle of November. So following the interim zoning updates, we planning and zoning has posted 16 one to two page spotlights on different issues that are becoming out of interim zoning on our website. They're really short bite sized resources that are really great to kind of get oriented to those discussions. I'd encourage folks to take a look at those. And as you probably know, our stormwater team provides technical assistance and management support to Shelburne as they have stood up their own stormwater system. The first bills for that system go out this week. So five year process in the making and are greatly supported by hum to Petro and Justin revenue. So I want to thank them for their efforts there. This is really along the lines of our goals about being offered to unity oriented as a city and a regional leader in service provision. So a big accomplishment. A couple of programming updates from Holly, the soccer season and has finished up with great success we had over 240 children participating in that program basketball registration is up and running we are watching COVID numbers and COVID policies but we are registering for that right now. Unfortunately, the committee course has decided not to run this semester due to COVID but think we think that that's a smart choice and we'll be tracking that over time. And then the senior center is serving to meals a week Wednesdays and Fridays so if you know folks would like to participate please have them join us in terms of fun events coming up we have a number of free Halloween events coming up. On Tuesday the 19th from six to seven will be doing a not so scary hike in Hubbard Park on Friday October 26 from six to eight will be doing can be pumpkin carving in the senior center with hopefully good cleanup because the next morning we will be starting out retreat in that room on the 30th from six to eight there'll be a community glow work community glow walk on mark on the market street retention on park. And then on Halloween on the 31st from one to three, there'll be the Halloween pooch party at the lower feral baseball fields. A few more less fun updates. It is doing some updates this coming Wednesday from nine to 11 server updates p.m. so you may see some brief interruptions to email and the website, but they'll be back up quickly, hopefully. And then kudos to Andrew and Martha Machar our FY 21 audit starts this week. Our auditors will be here throughout the week so it's a pretty heavy lift by finance and want to thank them for their efforts. A couple of other upcoming meetings I just want to make sure the council was aware of on the 26 at two will be the quarterly pension meeting. Next Wednesday the 27th we will be we will have our steering committee meetings with the school board, the 28th at five at Allard Square we're having a kind of a focus group meeting about a potential sidewalk to be installed on Mary street to collect neighborhood feedback on that. We have our policies and strategies retreat on the 30th, and then we have upcoming council meetings on November 1st, eight and 15. Just want to remind everybody of those. That's all I have. And the basketball program. Where are they going to be held up. So we've gotten access to the schools. So it'll be mostly elementary schools and. Okay, fingers crossed unless numbers drastically change. Okay. We'll pin it as we can. Thank you. All right, very good. The meeting in Ellersburg at Mary street. It's solely about sidewalks. Discussion about possibly opening the street. So this is really a meeting focused on pedestrian connectivity. However, our team will be there and if folks want to talk about anything else. Of course. Of course. That meeting is the 28th at five o'clock at Allen square. And a community name in there, which is beautiful if folks have not been in it. Thank you. All right. Next up is our consent agenda where we have the disbursements. We have the minutes from September 20th. Also minutes to look at and approve. So we're going to be also considering the all hazards mitigation plan update. An agreement with the Howard center to develop and operate the community outreach program through June 30th, 2027. And request to apply for a fiscal year 22 municipal planning grant to support the climate action plan development. And I just wanted to give an opportunity to our newest counselor, Matt Kota, who was I hear when we implemented the community outreach program. I just wanted to give you a chance to pull that out if you wanted to know more about it. Is that something you would like? No, thank you. Okay, very good. So we will go ahead with consent agenda. Taking out the Howard center agreement of 60 in order to consider separately. Is there a motion to approve ABC and E. Very good. And all in favor. Yes. Yes. Thank you. I would like to hear from the committee on this unanimous. All right. And so six D the agreement with the Howard center to develop and operate the community outreach program. Would you like to. Sure. So the community outreach program is a program that. Communities in Chittenden County started in, I believe it was April, 2018. of his brain child and pulled together in parties. So it's a partnership between several municipalities and the Howard Center to embed community outreach workers into our police departments. So there is now a staff of five at Howard Center who serve Shelburne, South Burlington, Colchester, Winooski, Williston and Essex, and is now extending to Milton and Hinesburg as well, I believe. So it's been operating since that time when I can tell you both from my time in Winooski. So the concept, right, is that with services reduced in other places and mental health crises, expanding in our communities and substance abuse crises, expanding in our communities, first responders often become the kind of primary respondents. And entering those situations with a badge and a gun is absolutely the wrong intervention. We want folks being served at the lowest level possible. So the community outreach workers have built amazing relationships with the police officers and the police departments and are sometimes deployed on their own or sometimes deployed in partnership with police officers. But I can say that from my experience with Winooski and I believe the same has been true here, huge resource not only for community members, but quite frankly for the police as well. So this agreement will, we've been doing annual year to year agreements thus far and this agreement gives certainty to both our community that it will be maintained for five years, but also to Howard Center to know that they will maintain this book of business for five years. So I think it's a big win all around. Any questions? Yeah, I noticed in that contract that the coverage was up until about 8pm, I think it was. Are there exceptions to that? Like what happens to something happens at two in the morning and there's a need? Does the contract allow for an out of time call for them? If there's somebody available, would they respond to that? So the team, the community outreach team at Howard Center is organizationally seated with first response or first call. So in that case, first call would be deployed. Also, I know that the police officers often will respond to whatever they need to overnight and then we'll send an email to the community outreach team members who are coming in the next morning and they will do the follow-up. So often it's not a response at 2am, but a service connection the next morning, a check-in with a therapist or a caseworker that kind of follow-up with the community outreach team does if it's a true crisis, first call response. And what is Burlington doing? So Burlington has a similar program called Street Outreach that's primarily focused on short street that functions very similarly. It's actually managed by the same program manager at Howard Center, but is separate from our regional community outreach team. And are they able to fill the positions that are going to be needed for this new contract? Is there any indication that they have enough applicants? So right now they're fully staffed. It is a position that turns over. So they are often hiring a new outreach team member each year. I think there are three alumni at this point who have moved on to other positions. I believe one of them has actually moved on to be a police officer, which is an interesting transition. But they are fully staffed at the moment. Is it the dispatcher who determines what kind of service is needed? Are these people that are police officers know, perhaps so that they can say this is more for the Howard Center as opposed to an officer? Or how does it work? So often it is the dispatchers who are making that determination. At times it is, I think the dispatchers do defer to, in the cases where they're not sure, it's not somebody who the department has a relationship with. They will defer and ascending both a police officer and an outreach worker. And often what happens is they get on scene and then the police officer is put back into circulation and the outreach team member spends much more time with the individual. Any other questions? I can talk about this for an hour. But it's just so interesting. I'd love to delve into a lot of different things, but go ahead. Well, it looks from the budget numbers that their talents have really stepped up and really integrated this as their budgets too. All right, very good. So can we then, I'm seeking a motion to approve an agreement with the Howard Center to develop and operate the community outweigh programs through June 30th, 2027. Very good. All in favor? Aye. And I think that was unanimous as well. I saw a head nod here. Okay. Number seven. We now have an appointment to the climate action plan task force from the bike and pedestrian committee. And Jesse, would you like to explain that to us? Sure. So hopefully we are also amazingly, almost right back on time for us. So this is pretty much administrative change. You had previously appointed Maddie from the bicycle and pedestrian committee onto the task force. She has a conflict and is unable to serve. So the bicycle and pedestrian committee has taken that back up and is recommending you appoint Donna Leban in place. It's Leban. Oh, Leban. Very good. Sorry, Donna. Is there any need for discussion on this? No, it should be great. I agree. Any, the motion then? You're to approve. Yeah, Donna Leban. All right. All in favor of appointing Donna Leban to our climate action plan task force. Aye. Aye. All right. Very good. So we're moving on to number eight. We're going to now discuss the next step related to an in-bar recreation center. We have both Alana Blanchard, but also our... If you guys sit up here, I will do the little camera move era. Good evening for the audience. Alana Blanchard, community development director. Thank you. Thank you, right? So we spoke to you in September about the indoor recreation center status and gave you an update. We have a 75,000 budgeted this year for that project. And so in the council discussion, we came away with some areas to explore. So we took that discussion and went back to the consultants and we made a request. There was a motion to explore, to conduct a feasibility study at the Veterans Memorial Park. And so we obtained a code for that. We also completed asking for the cost to update the existing schematic to sort of respond to COVID and ensure there was options for modularity in terms of volume engineering, but bringing the class down on a modular basis. And also to respond to the now existence of the entrance of the Kanzarina. We heard a lot of discussion about climate change. So we also asked for a climate responsive revision of the schematic. So to look at the site, the needs in the building and to really look at what could be done in terms of greenhouse gases, micro climates, other existing conditions at the site to revise the plan with that specific criteria. And then the fourth thing that we did is we talked to the consultants and other folks just about looking at an alternative site, a long commercial corridor that was existing developed site that had been paid. So in terms of that, it doesn't make sense to move forward with a schematic until a site is selected and feasibility and new diligence has occurred. And so we did receive a quote in terms of an individual per site site fit. So look at, see what fits on the site. How do you meet your stormwater? How do you meet your parking? How do you meet the either the existing or some future depending on what it occurs set of programmatic needs for the facility on the site. So we did also talk to, I spent time talking to our assessor to understand what land values are like. Generally along these areas, they're in the million dollars per acre cost range. So the current layout of the project is six and a half acres. That includes shared parking with the pool arena. It does not include the stormwater. There is a fair amount of open space though within that six and a half acres. So for example, where that half circle driveway is right now that actually becomes long. So there's a fair amount of space. So I don't know if I would have that as extra. Why did you set an idea of the area? So generally, that's where we are the four options. The fees that I should say with the swimming pool option is the feasibility study. Because of that beyond the feasibility study, it results in a schematic and that's partially in order to better understand the cost. So that could be scaled back. So a schematic really enables us to gain a better sense of how much it would cost to build. Whereas a feasibility study is going to give us more of a general bulk cost estimate that would be further developed at the schematic stage. The design update is 34,000. The climate responsive option is 91,000. That's really going back to all of the different consultants for redoing the energy model. So it's a fairly large overhaul. And then it would also look at things like how much carbon do the materials use so a much deeper analysis. And then a paid site as I said is an undetermined cost. Thank you. So you are looking for some direction. We want to go on stage and direction in terms of what should be studied going forward, right? And so I am open to hearing initial comments from counselors. And I know that there is at least one member of the public who would like to speak as well. And I'll just say two members very good. By the way, background, any of these will likely come with an additional contract amendments or not actually looking for a vote of approval of dollars tonight as much as general direction of what would you like us to bring you back from that sense? Well, I know he wants a pool. You can go first. I didn't see your hand up because the heads are all blocking. Go ahead, Tom. I didn't mean to go first, but happy to. I'll say a couple of things. Sandy, Julie and Gladdy are cameras on because you sent some nice notes before the meeting today that I would concur with the sentiment which is I as one counselor, I don't think I'm ready to push forward any plan for like this coming March. I feel that the pandemic, the reistraisal, it really is looking at more than almost a year out from now before I think we're going to be ready to ask the community for either a rec center pool or a combination of votes. I would also just say that as I've walked the neighborhoods, and this is not just me with kids, but as I've walked the neighborhoods and talked to many different constituents throughout South Burlington and I look at what other communities I've been able to afford, I feel that a pool, it should be part of the next ask of the community because there's just so much support for it. I was talking to a friend at Engleworth Construction where on the soccer field watching her kids play and he told me that the YMCA minus the land that they just built that brand new indoor facilities and an indoor pool, an indoor pool was $20 million. So it just doesn't seem like it's that far fetched to put even an indoor pool as combination of this that as just the pool guy that's constantly been advocating for pools, I know that you will get more support from this community. If any plan we bring forward to the voters more than a year out or so includes aquatic facilities, just this area, this region needs it. We don't have Red Rocks for kids to swim in these days with the pollution. I'm sad to say, I hope that changes over time, but I just as one counselor really hope that whatever we bring forward to the voters in due diligence in a long period of time has a pool included. Thank you, Tim, for giving me the floor. It wasn't me need to lead us off with my pool mantra. Tim. So, you know, they've called and emailed the counselors and shared some insight. And I have to agree with them about one thing is that the siting of the center really to me it makes the most sense to do it at veterans Memorial Park. As much as it'd be nice to reuse some commercial land somewhere else, it's really expensive. And the synergy that we get by having an actual physical connection with the parents arena makes a lot of sense. It's just, it's just intuitive to do that. And we also own the land, we have a design. There's probably the store water design is also good. But there are a lot of other questions too, like timing, like when would we want to put this before the voters? How much the total cost will they going to be? Do we want to include full? And then taking into account, you know, those concerns that we've heard from other citizens about how much CO2 is going to take to actually dig up, you know, and build this thing because doing any disturbance is going to have that kind of effect. And then also what kind of energy usage would the building have depending on how it was designed and could we take advantage of any excess heat waste from the arena? So I think we should move forward to some degree with this and get the design work done. And then we need to negotiate how we're going to present to voters and when and whether or not the pool should be included. At least we can have a design for a pool. I think that that's whether it's indoors or outdoors. That's another good question. I don't have an opinion on that right now. All right, Matt. Thank you for that. The question about a number one, when you look at number one, you would be open to the possibilities of phasing of an indoor or outdoor ride. That's going to take into all the considerations in the design. Yeah, that seems to make the most sense to me. And I agree with Tim. Yes, where it's underserved recreation areas in certain parts of the city, but just the cost of land and the synergy that we have with the Veterans Park and the Kansas Arena just makes that sense. All right. And I will just relay the comments of Helen Relie. She is still very much keen on reusing already paid surface or developed surface that would be redeveloped. And primarily because of the climate concerns in addition to location concerns. I will say that I share reticence with March as a date. I got something that Tom Chittin raised and I tend to share that. And I would also say that it does have, I think some synergy with the Kansas Arena. And I would also like us to think about the environmental design of it. I think that you were very just, it was well chosen for you to put that as a bullet point, sensing where we are on the council and where the public is, I think. So those are my initial comments. And I see two here. We'll start with Michael Nittag and then we'll move on to Sandy Doolin. Yes, you want me to move? Oh, no, let me see how I can have a very, there you are, Michael. Here you go. Spine can be coming. All right. Okay, I'd like to make my pitch to the council about this. First of all, six and a half acres, using up six and a half acres of the Veterans Memorial Park is a huge amount of space that we're giving away. We're constantly hearing that there's enough, not enough space for soccer. We have to build a new soccer field down at South Village. We used up a big chunk of Veterans Memorial Park for the grand-based solar facility, which I opposed at the time for that reason, because I thought they could go on the roofs of the two arenas. And Councillor Chittenden mentions Burlington's Y, which has everything that we might need. And it's built on one and a half acres. The building is 50,000 square feet on two levels. So its footprint is maybe 25 or 30,000 square feet. And that's about a third. The remaining 70% of the site would be available for parking and green space or whatever you want. So I think really we should look really hard at this not wasting open space at the Nature Park, the Veterans Memorial Park, which is so valuable to the residents and the children who play sports there. It's a big giveaway, I think, a serious giveaway. And there are sites, would it be improper of me to mention a site that I think could be... I don't believe so. All right, there's a 2.3 acre site on Dorset Street that belongs to Champlain Oil Company. And they've gone somewhere else. That's 100,000 square feet of space. And a good third or 50% bigger than what the Burlington Y has. I don't know what the attributes of that site are. Maybe a brownfield, I don't know. I've had experience in my personal business life with such a site that we bought a competitor and they used a lot of oil in their processes. And we did find oil residue. We had to drill through the floor of their factory to find it because they built over it. So I don't know whether that is a factor. That 2.3 acre site is assessed at 1.8 million. And I suspect that if it's a brownfield site, it would be worth less than that. Maybe not suitable for residential yards and places where people would be exposed to whatever pollutants that remain there. But for a building of this type, two or three levels, we'd have everything we want. Two indoor pools, an indoor running track, the Y in West Market, Beck, where I used to live, in Montreal, has an even smaller building, much smaller. And they have a short indoor track. So I'm pleading with you. I'm making a plea to the council, don't use green space for this project. Whether you do it in March or November next year, it's not relevant. The key for me is the site selection. Use a site that's already paved over. As I said, I haven't looked at all the parcels around Southburns and by that one stuck out like a sore thumb, really, very obvious. So that's my plea because it could be done. It could have everything we want, even everything that Tom wants. What's in the Burlington Y? Actually, Brian, are you still? What's in the Burlington Y? So I think I know, I think I remember, but Brian is on, and I wonder if he could just answer that briefly for us. Oh, okay, this is the consultant. Yeah, so they were the designer for the Burlington Y. Yeah, are you able to hear me? Yeah. Yeah, so I was the project architect for the Burlington Y. The Burlington Y includes a six-ling lap pool, a smaller family pool. It has a half, basically half of one basketball court. So one of the big differences is the program for the South Burlington Rec Center that was developed previously had three full basketball courts, as well as a turf court that was designed to be expandable to roughly the same area. So the big difference in space between the Burlington Y and what was done for the Rec Center is really those, essentially, the area of four indoor basketball courts. That's pretty much it. Then the Burlington Y also has some daycare classrooms and an upstairs weight center. Thank you, thank you. Yes, just to clarify that that anchorage includes the space for the future pool and the turf field. So the difference is probably more space for a pool. I'm guessing the space reserved for the pool on our site is larger than would be in an indoor downtown pool. And then there's the three basketball courts and then a full turf field for the future build-out. And the turf field is the size of three basketball courts for one basketball court. Three, three, okay. So it's a full soccer field. It's in the schematic, it's only a third of that, but the space on the site allows for the build-out to that full indoor turf field, which we see a great need for in the future. Yeah, quite right. Yes, please. I just want to chime in on one thing. I remember Kevin Dorn very successfully advocated for, which was the senior center. He thought that that was a very important piece to have as part of this. He was right, this pass to bond for this facility pass. I just would say for this to pass, a bond to pass for Reg Center, you kind of have that pool. There's just so much community want and desire for a pool out there. I hope I'm not just a fine wolf and nobody's listening to me, but I just, I need to represent those voices. And I can't expect a successful vote if we go with a pool as part of the plan that we put before the voters, indoor or outdoor. That's the question. Thank you. I'm going to stand here and then we'll come back. Sandy. Sandy Dooley. We can't hear you, Sandy. Unmute. Unmute. Here we go. It would help if I unmuted myself. I'm Sandy Dooley, East Terrace. I've lived here probably close to 50 years. Anyway, my first request was for someone to address why this isn't part of the priority setting or strategic strategy and policy process that the council is currently underway and the council adopted. It seems like it is in keeping with that process in terms of weighing things in a holistic way. I certainly think my request is to do nothing on this until probably next fall and think about 2023, maybe, because I really feel the school, the needed improvements in the school, either improvements or replacement of school facilities is a higher priority in the community. I can't say so, but I don't think there's been an ex, in my view, there hasn't been an exploration of where the desire for a rec center and its cost compares among the residents and property owners to the need to address the school's needs. I also wanna say that I certainly support Michael in his view that the Veterans Memorial Park is certainly, it has disadvantages, including the ones that Michael raised, but I recall that someone in the earlier discussion talked about the fact that there's no bus service to Veterans Memorial Park, that if you have, if a priority is diversity and inclusion, it really needs to be pretty much in city center, and I'm disappointed that those priority, that priority is not reflected in the discussion of how if you chose to go forward right now, there's no indication that there's an identification of that as a priority. All right, thank you. I think that just to make our city manager can respond to your first question about why this is not part of the priority setting process. So I would argue it is part of the priority setting process and it's certainly, you will see it on the list of documents and resources we provide to you on Friday in advance of that meeting. I think why we wanted to provide you this additional information tonight is that there are a lot of priorities on that list with a lot of things to talk about and August had asked us for additional pathways to come back with additional pathways. So we want to give those to you in advance as you consider how to weigh this against other things. So certainly an option for you tonight is to receive this and provide a specific direction or to receive this and provide direction in the context of that process as well. But we wanted to have a, because we had said we would come back to you with options, we wanted to do that in a warned regular council meeting as well. Yes, Michael. Yes, I just wanted to respond to something that I mentioned, which is the indoor turf, three basketball court size and then three basketball courts as well, right? Is that correct? Potential for? So there's three basketball courts in this schematic today and then a small turf court, but that the amount of land that I mentioned, the approximately six acres, it includes the full turf house field as well as the pool. Outside the pool. As well as the pool, yes. Yeah, so the Burlington-wise 50,000 square feet and it's on two levels. So I'm assuming it's 25 to 30,000 square foot footprint. On the parcel that I referred to, we could go, we could get 100,000 square feet if we needed to on two levels and use only half, less than half of the parcel, leaving the rest for parking and maybe a little grief, I don't know. So I don't think that's a limitation, although in the end, you might have to decide what's a must have and what's a nice to have. And you might have to give up something to bring this project into a price range that South Burlington residents are likely to approve. Anything else here from counselors? All right, Sandy? Oh, it's also on the bus service. Yes. And I was just going to add to Michael's in the sense that you can, I think if people are going to a rec center, not all of them would be able to walk a distance. Certainly you'd want to have some parking, but there's parking at U Mall, there's parking at night, there's parking at the schools, there's parking in all over the place in city center that people could use to go to a rec center without having dedicated lots of dedicated parking because God knows parking lots are not environmentally great either. So that's another advantage of a city center location and the need for less land. Thank you, Sandy. All right, so we need to answer your question, which was, do we provide direction here or do we provide direction on how this should be part of the prioritization process? It's hard for me to answer that second question. So I think that, I mean, I think the, if there was a strongly held opinion by the council tonight that you want to go in one direction and you are prepared to give us direction. And again, it's not to say, go spend, 34,000 plus 91,000, it's more go to prepare contracts for us to consider to do these parts. If you feel strongly that you have, you are certain that at a minimum you want to do that design and study, you can provide us that direction today. Those agreements will come back to you at a future council meeting for a vote that would still enable you to weigh those things against other things that will be discussed on the 30th. So I think there is a both end or you could say thanks for the information. We'll take this into consideration. And as we consider all the other priorities on the 30th, you will provide specific direction on this as well. Excuse me, I'll be asked to go home. Thank you so much. Thank you, Michael. You're the only one I have to say. Thank you very much. All right, thank you for the clarifying. A lot of views that and about, yeah, a lot of you had raised your hand. Did you want to add something? Yeah, I'm not sure that we would, because it's an amendment to an existing contract, I'm not sure that we would need to bring it back, but we do need direction and we don't need to have it tonight. So the 30th could be a time or some time after the 30th. After the 30th. It's your imperative when we proceed with the project. So it's up to you guys. Thank you. Where are you all sitting? Yeah, Tom. I feel like I have to raise this now because otherwise I'll regret not doing it months from now as this moves on the tracks. But I will say the St. Michael's hockey team plays at Carnes. Do they not? All their games are at Carnes Arena. The University of Vermont Athletic Center is about to demolish their four bush auditorium. So they don't have a swimming pool. And when I spoke with Jeff Shulman in the before times, they don't currently have a plan for the space. I think it's a good idea. Maybe our city manager or Lana wants to at least open the conversation with the University of Vermont. That is a stone's throw from campus. And I could see UDM being at the table with a great deal of resources. If we move forward with all they require is that the pool be a certain length, Olympic length. But if they were able to come up with the monies for the pool to serve the swim team for the University of Vermont, there is an avenue there. Again, serving the greater regional aquatic needs for a swim needs space. There's a whole advocacy group. I think I sent you a contact, Jesse, on the pool aspect. And at this early stage of discussion, I really encourage us to at least broaden the conversation to see if there's other monies to be had for this. As for where we are tonight, I just, I don't think we need to hurry on this. I think this needs to be put on the back burner. And then maybe you come back on October 30th. I'm just glad that the pool isn't being laughed off the conversation table. So I'm just excited to have more conversations about rec facilities and pools in the future. All right, yes, Matt. And I know number four, thank you. And number four is a question mark in terms of costs. And I know you've talked to us and you said, Anasim, it's so much easier when you own the land on both a cost perspective and a planning perspective because by the seller of the land, our time frame, this might be different from their time frame. But Sandy and Michael really swayed me in recognizing that if we build a 20, 25, $30 million rec center at Veterans Park, well, there is synergy and there is parking and there is all the components there, it's going to feel like an SEQ amenity and not, and not one for other neighborhoods. And I think we have to do our due diligence. I don't know what the cost is. To ensure that there isn't other parts of our city where we could serve more people in other neighborhoods as well. So I understand the challenges when you don't own the land, but I think we have to investigate all opportunities so we can deliver on that. So we can say we try. Well, we made an attempt. I don't think I had something. I hear what you're saying, but I just agree about the focus on the Southeast Quadrant. Veterans Memorial Park has been there for a long time. It's used heavily by Little League and upper age baseball and soccer of all ages, including the clubs, especially during June when they have their tournaments. And that is a very heavily used recreation resource. And although it would be great to look at other locations, I can't see spending the time and money on doing that when we have the land right there. It's right next to the ice rinks. We've got the parking and we have the spaceport. And Burlington had to really work really hard with the Y trying to find a location. And thank goodness they knocked down that Ethan Allen Club, that God-awful building. What a great location for it, but I just want to impress upon people that we have a spot. That is a recreation facility for South Burlington, meaning the whole Veterans Memorial Park. And we have room there. I just want to make sure everybody understands that if we have the room for it and it's right next to the ice rinks and everything's ready to go in terms of design, we should push very hard on that idea. I'd love to go see some other place, but we already looked at the cocoa facility and Kevin Dorn had an idea to put up an inflatable structure there, right? That didn't pay it out for whatever reason. I mean, I think we finally abandoned the idea of an inflatable structure because it really wasn't a more than a 20-year-plus type piece of architecture. Whereas something that was steel built would be a long-term investment for the city. And this is a long-term investment for the health and well-being and quality of life for all of our citizens. So wherever we put it, it's going to be a nugget for everybody to use. How they get there, that's going to be different for, it didn't work that difficult for some people because there's not a bus line servicing it, but sometimes you have to put things where it's the best location for the most people, right? Even if you can't get it for everybody. So I just want to make sure we understand that the Veterans Immortal Park is already a park. As I hear us all talking here, it seems like we are not coming together here in consensus and I'll just add my voice after hearing the public and hearing my colleagues here on the council. As I recall, the reason why we turned away from the Cocoa Oil Building was because we had a member of our Economic Development Committee tell us that that should be used for business and that it made no sense to put a municipal building on a property that could give us some property taxes. And at the time that swayed the council. Which would be true for any other property that you went looking at that was privately owned. So at the same time, I think that we have to consider that this would come in multi-generational steps. And I think that Burlington is very fortunate to have several recreation buildings scattered throughout the municipality. So that Pomerlo Building is not the only building plus they have a very nice donor in order to make that building work. And so I certainly wouldn't want this to be seen as the end all of recreation in South Burlington whatever we come up with would be a step towards serving our community. And as our community is being separated by 89, being separated through the various intricacies of our roadways, I don't know that there ever could be a truly central location that everyone could access. Which is why I would see this as a piece of perhaps several buildings for future councils and residents to come together and work on. I am swayed by having properties being redeveloped. I am swayed by the argument that we have to consider costs and that we have dire needs in our recreation and parks department right now. And I do see that given the cost and the dire needs of our recreation department to have something modest up at Veterans Memorial Park, this does make sense to me. But I do see that because we are not reaching unanimity here, it would be good for the community and for us to consider thinking about this and prioritizing. So I guess that's how I would sum it up in addition to giving my own comments. All at one thing, I agree with you, Tim. I'm not against putting something up. That turns it makes a lot of sense to go there. I just want to pull. I put it at JC Park, put it wherever you want. I just want to pull. Yes, Sandy. I just wanted to add a couple of things. I do know that I don't know if it is a Brownfield, the Champlain Oil Company, but Champlain Housing Trust built housing in the old North End on Brownfield land and there's money available if you, at least there was for using Brownfields and bringing them into a better state. The only other thing I would comment is my sense is that while most of the use of Veterans Memorial Park is for team sports, I'm not sure that really translates to a rec center, especially to a pool, an outdoor pool in particular. I think of that as a major recreation kind of thing. Well, often families, yes, there would probably be some races and things, but I don't think the nature of the use makes it an apples to apples comparison to the current use of Veterans Memorial Park. That's just what I wanted to say. And while I think, and because of that, I think something that's located more centrally. And the other thing is, have you looked into talking to people, sources about donating land? That would be ideal. Sometimes you just have to ask. We are taking offers. Second letter. Thank you. And thank you very much, Alana and Holly. Okay, so we are up to item number nine, which is review of the draft tax increment financing district of substantial change requests and consider setting a public hearing date of November 15th, 2021 at seven PM. And again, Alana Blanchard, our community development director will be doing this discussion. So I just go ahead and move the proposal for the hearing. You, so good. Can you show the public's benefit and have it right with a little bit more? No, I don't know, but what do you do? Dark masks. So good evening. Thank you, Chairman. So I'm presenting at preliminary to requesting a substantial change amendment to the TIPP district plan and the TIPP financing plan. We need to have, I think city council would need to both hold a public hearing on the requested change and also to approve the change prior to being submitted to the Vermont economic progress council, the state body that's responsible for approving changes to plans and to district plans. We are putting together the substantial change amendment in order to prepare for the audit next year and to bring, to update our existing plans in order that there is no confusion about what is in the plan and what we have done and what we see coming for the rest of the TIPP district. So the substantial change will update the revenue model. This was presented in September and we are still working through that. It will update the public project list, the costs and the timeline for implementation. So on the second page, I put together a brief summary of the projects. The current estimated project cost in the 2015 financing plan for all of the projects is $97,000, I'm sorry, $97 million, it's not that way. And the TIPP estimated TIPP contribution to that total cost. So we have a mix of funding for these projects including federal, city and impact fee, among others, is $54,998,000. The change that we are requesting, we are estimating, we're waiting on some numbers, but approximately $61 million or $62 million total cost. And then the TIPP district contribution would be $26 million. The remainder of that, so the delta between the 62 million and the 26 million would be approximately 18,000 and estimated federal grants and an estimated 18 million in city sources so that the mix of funds supported by the reserve fund grants and other, so state grants and then foundation money among other sources. And then I also put together a debt look ahead. So essentially we would expect that, should we receive the, for example, the federal grant for the pedestrian bicycle bridge, then we would have four remaining projects, the city center, Schumann park phase two. So it's the city center park, a connection between the existing park and storm on upon garden street phase two, the Wilson road streetscape, the pedestrian bike bridge and we would likely be ready to request a vote in November of 22 and March of 2023 for those projects. We would be removing from the TIPP district plan the parking garage, stormwater and wetland mitigation, I'm sorry, wetland mitigation and stream restoration and, and sorry, the urban park and festival streets and the recreation center. So all of those would cease to be TIPP eligible projects unless we learn back for another change. So we recommend holding a public hearing on November 15th as you stated, in order to submit in November so that this can be considered by best in December. And that seven o'clock time would be good for that meeting. I don't know if we have any other things. Okay. All right, any questions about the major changes? I do not either, any in the public. I see no cameras. Caller one, you still are showing to be green. Are you wishing to speak up? All right. So I would be looking for emotion. Sure. I'll move that we set a public hearing date of November 15th for consideration of a substantial change to the TIPP district request. All right, that's November 15th at 7 p.m. All in favor? All right. Thank you very much, Alana. All right. Number 10, we're going to review an application for a solar field at Spear Street and provide direction and we have our city attorney, Collin McNeil, who's here to step us along and that's fine. You're the door guy now, that's just fine. You're really sunny. All right, thank you. Thank you, good evening all. Here tonight to present what is an application by an entity who is named Spear Street Solar, that they'll see, they are putting in a full, a solar farm on Spear Street, 600 Spear Street. They don't say exactly how many solar panels, but it's about 15 rows. It's a 500 kilowatt electricity generating facility. And it is an application that they have submitted to the Public Utility Commission. And so it comes before you tonight because as the municipality in which this is going to take place, you have the ability to enter your appearance as an intervener, you have ability to make comments that would be made on the record to the Public Utility Commission and to the applicant which they could address or you could request a hearing. So the deadline is October 22nd, coming right up. And we're here tonight really to get your feedback as to whether you would like to take any action. We submitted a memo to you, the outline that this came before you I believe back in August, perhaps. And it came before you as per statute, entities that are going to file an application have to give a 45 day notice of that and they did so. And I believe at that time you elected to make no comment. I was not here at that time. The Planning Commission, it was submitted to the Planning Commission as well. The Planning Commission did make comments. They had about four or five comments. The planning staff has been working with the applicant to address the Planning Commission's comments. And at this point, they are not recommending any further steps be taken. There was a question by Helen about whether or not a fence was required. So whether or not a fence is required. The proposal is to have a fence. I know the Planning Commission asked the question that one of their comments was, please don't install a fence. And the applicant responded in working with the Planning Commission that a fence was required. I did speak to the fire chief, our fire chief, who advised that the National Electric Code, I believe, does require a fence because of the amount of electricity that's being generated just for safety purposes. So they, in working with the Planning Commission, the applicant has modified their application a little bit to allow for, I think, what they're calling an agricultural fence, as opposed to a straight forward fence that has six inch by six inch squares that would allow animals to go through. And they're also raising it, yeah, small animals to come through. I don't think they want deer, for instance, because I was in the materials, they advised that, you know, deer could perhaps chew on the wires or get hurt by the solar generating panels and the electric wires. And I know as part of their conversation with the Planning Commission, that the applicant has also agreed to raise it a little bit above the ground for the same reason, so that small animals can go under the fence as well as through it. One additional item that the Planning Commission wanted was a walking trail around the fence, around the entire circumference of the facility. And I believe that they, as part of their application, they've agreed to do that and maintain that trail. So, the Planning Commission with those changes seemed to be satisfied. Any other, yes, Tim? So, the issue of fencing has come up before in South Burlington when you compare the Chinden solar field at the bottom of Dubois versus the Clair solar field which is behind me at the site of it. Clair doesn't have a fence. Chinden has a fence because I think Literstorff said he thought he had to put a fence in. But when they put in Clair and Larkin didn't have to put a fence in, when I talked to Literstorff, he was like, I couldn't save like $10,000 not having to put a stupid fence up around the Chinden solar field. So, I don't know why they think they need to put a fence in there but I can't think of any reason, either state or local, that requires them to put a fence in if we have a 1.2 megawatt facility in the southeast quadrant that doesn't have a fence. It also happens to be in a migration path, right? I'm not sure that the Spearsley solar would be but I don't think they have to have a fence at all for it personally. I think it's a waste of money and it's a waste of resource and then you have to like vary it for the animals. Why bother to put it in there all if you don't have to worry about the animals, right? You can put a trail, you can cut a trail around it for people to walk because this is the same property where we had an IZ application for some houses, right? This is the, this is the, let me solve that. So, this is the eastern portion, right? Next to the interstate. It's the one third of that lot. The other two thirds face on Spearsley with an existing metal building and two existing homes. They went into a wreck like several units of housing. This is Von Turkovich, right? Yes. Okay, so it's that same property. So the people that'll be living there could have the ability to walk out around this field but not, you know, they shouldn't be walking in around the panels. So I'm not sure what the fire chief means. I don't think that there's a requirement. All of that, those wires are inside conduits, right? So they're not to be, no one's gonna be touching them. You can walk around the solar panels of the Dorset Park right now. There's no fence around that either. So I'm strongly against any fence at all. And so that means we have to be interviewers in this, so be it, but that's gonna mean some expense, right? Yes. Or we could submit a comment letter if any comments, questions or feedback. That's correct. Yes, please. So I was just gonna remind the councilor Barrett, I would also just ask if instead of being forced to spend money on a fence going all the way around the solar panels, can we use that as a, can we collect that what they would spend on it and use that towards the sound barriers that we've been talking along that stretch. If I'm not mistaken, this is gonna be adjacent to the interstate where we are looking on the other side of it. We have many residents there that are craving some sort of sound or noise barriers. And I'm just wondering if that's the better type of fence just along the interstate as, as I see in many populated areas throughout this country, concrete walls that don't sound the trucks away from the neighborhood. You're talking about a barrier on the other side of the interstate or on, or for that piece of problem. We'll stretch both sides. If we can collect the money to start building torches. That property that plan we saw included a burn, right? That would, and those homes were pulled back so far from the interstate that they were pretty confident that they wouldn't be hearing too much of the, I mean, they're gonna hear something but it wouldn't be as bad as what the people on the Eastern side of the interstate hear today. They're gonna spend it on a fence that we don't want. Can they just give us the money and we'll build it. That's my point. My opinion is, and obviously we're not the applicant. So I can only speak to what I've been reading and the materials presented but it seems like they are the ones advocating for the applicant is the one advocating for the fence. The planning commission asked that they remove the fence and they said, we can't, we have to have the fence. And perhaps they hear a vandalism. I don't care. Claire, I don't think Claire has had any vandalism and it doesn't have a fence and it is the biggest installation that we have. Sounds like the majority of us are of that point. Yes. I'm not prepared to intervene or to force them to not have a fence. If you want, if we want to, if the council agrees that we would prefer not to have a fence it would set the letter urging the PUC and their active 48 proceedings to look at that issue. Yeah. And determine whether or not it in fact is required because it is because the council built it was unnecessary or that certain modifications needed to be done to allow for wildlife. I think that's a good use of that in favor. I'm not sure I want to intervene on this. Councilor Coda, are you comfortable with that letter indicating the council would prefer there not to be a fence? Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah. And does that satisfy you, Tim? There's another solar installation already on the UVM property at the southern end of the area where they used to have a bunker for faith feed, right? Did they install two years ago or a year and a half ago? You know, if you're coming north on Spear Street and the barn is on the right back down to the southeast corner, there's a bunch of solar panels in there. They don't have a fence around it. Yeah. No? In the letter, we can let's go. Sure. We can do, we can try to do some reconnaissance. Try to find those without fences. So at this point, it sounds like you would like us to put together a comment, a letter to the Public Utility Commission and the applicant advocating strongly that they not include a fence and our beliefs that they don't need a fence. And would you authorize me to, us to put this letter together and send it out without going back to the council? I'm comfortable with that. Yes, it looks like we're comfortable with that. Yes. Thank you. We'll do. All right. Thank you. All right, then. We're going to get out of the column. You know, I'm sorry. It's so interesting. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. You know, the solar panels are like graveyards, you know, they're nice and quiet. They don't disturb you. They don't look great, but you know. I don't mind them unattracted. At least, at least there's grass growing there wildly. All right. We can have sheep grazing. Maybe they want sheep degrees in there. Yeah, that's what they're going to have for John's. All right, we're going to move ahead to number 11. Approve a temporary licensing for the school district for 577 Dorset Street, formerly known as 575 Dorset Street, I'm guessing. Yes, thank you. It's changing for the male purposes. An anticipation of a permanent lease agreement with an option to purchase. And again, our city attorney, Collin McNeil. Good evening again. So exactly that we have coming for you with a essentially an after the fact request for approval. The school districts, as you are aware, we've been working with the school district on various land swaps to want to build this city hall we're in now and to have them be able to utilize the former city hall. One component of that is that we were negotiating a more long term lease agreement with the school department that will be coming before you. And included in that is an option to purchase. The school district's timetable required that they moved in sooner than I think they anticipated just because they're moving needs. And so we put together a license agreement, which is a temporary license agreement that will be in effect for as long as it takes to negotiate the lease, but no more than 60 days. And it essentially allows them to do some of the fit up work that they've been doing and allows them to move in and just kind of outlines the terms of them being in there kind of provides awesome protection with insurance and identification outlines the terms of what they are allowed to utilize in that building and not utilize. So there is currently an area that's being utilized by the rec department that will be continued to be utilized and just stressed that that is still being utilized by the city. There's some civic city internet fiber that's remains in the building and there's the city court ball. So we wanted to make sure that those were off limits, if you will, as part of this use. We also want to come up with something that addressed utilities that understanding that they if they're going to be in the building and that they would be paying their fair share of utilities use that they'll be using while being in that. So we came up with a license agreement. David Young, the superintendent of the school district signed it last week as did our city manager. And we're here with you tonight to just request that you approve after a fact or ratify that agreement that temporary license agreement with this. Yeah. Just a, why don't we call it a license? Some of the, I don't need to sound down there. Why don't we call it a license agreement? Why? That's a little bit of a problem. You know, that's a good question because we try to, it's not a lease. We're negotiating the lease. We try to basically come up with something that's not as strong as a lease. So we're calling it a license. We're giving granting someone just a license to use it. And that's what we came up with. Okay. Why is it now 577? So now we, before we moved out of 575, we talked with the postmaster and it was easier for the fire station to stay 575 and receive mail there. And then the school district to change for E-911 purposes to 577 Dorset. So they can have their own unique mailing address and E-911. So they're two more meters south. That's what they're called. It's an E-911, right? Okay. And it's $10 a year? Well, we haven't, that's what's... We get 11. Those are the terms of the lease agreement. Yeah. This is for approximately $1. $1. What's the option to buy price? Should we determine that? Maybe not to determine that. That's part of what we're talking about. Okay. And is, do you know, is the school fairly happy so far with the space that they have? And they have a nice sign up there. I'm really impressed with what they've done so far. And so I'm just asking, are they happy? Cause if you go back two and a half years, you know, with the whole negotiation process with the parking lot and the stormwater, and you know, they work in a happy spot. So I think, I mean, we'll meet with them on Wednesday. My conversations with the superintendent is that they're very happy with all being co-located. This is the first time in their experience that the administration has all been in the same space. And I can tell just from being in this building, would be a huge disadvantage not to have that as the case. And I, they're doing a lot of work there. You know, I think it's, I think the conversations, the negotiation today has all been very amicable. Just really thinking about the best longterm potential for the city and the school and our shared constituents. We've had some bumpy roads with school board in the last couple of years. And so if this is smoothing out and this is good for them, it's just a nice thing to know. So I'm appreciative of the work. I've had nothing but positive experiences with this one. I'm really glad that it's working out for them. It's very positive. Yeah. And they do have the space issues at least at the high school. So hopefully. I think we should raise the concerns by Sandy Dooley with the, in the future, when you bring back the lease, there's going to be a lot of interest, I think, from the council to talk about the land options and how there will be continued possible flexibility for either housing or other purposes there in those discussions. Absolutely. Just be aware that it butts the interstate. Right? Northbound exit. Entrance. And just for the, just so you're aware, part of what we sent to you, we sent you a memo and included to that was the license agreement. And so an exhibit to that license agreement was the map that was originally worked out between the school and the, in the city that included essentially a yellow box around what, what land we're talking about. It doesn't, and that obviously excluded much land around the property that's now, that's now wooded, so. Nice. Very good. So I am looking for a motion to approve the temporary life agreement. So moved. Okay. All in favor? Aye. All right. Excellent. Thank you all very much. Yeah, thank you. And I'm glad that it really is moving. Reports from counselors, like committee assignments is now our next item. And I think last time we met Matt, the next day was going to be the GMT meeting. I've been teasing it for a while. The agreement was when there's three unions and one that authorizes strike was urban drivers, which affects us. And they come to terms and we have a contract that will be no strike. There's still other negotiations with the, with the rural drivers and with the maintenance, but we've got a great team over there. So happy that you all trust me to go on that board because it's such an important, important part of our, of our community. Fairs are still free. Yeah. But we are not get, we're not back to where we were pre pandemic. Is it widely known that fares are free? Couldn't they put something on a front porch forum in our local papers or? Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I think, I think we need to do, I certainly think that we need to do a better job talking about the merits of the bus because if, if you don't have those buses more than 25% full from a carbon reduction standpoint, you are not, you're not, you're not getting that. Right. So, I mean, I'm happy to put something out on all of our front porch forums, but it's not only South Burlington people who drive bus. Right, in a lot of it, you know, I used to ride the bus to Montpelier quite a bit pre pandemic and you'd have a lot of national life. Those buses were full, but people aren't, you know, necessarily working on national life building as much as they used to particularly state employees or working from home and that may change. But, you know, for the help of GMT is really survived thanks to Washington DC and ARPA funds that it helps sustain it, but it's not a long-term pathway. We need to get people back on the bus and figure out a funding model that works or a fair model that works. So, it's an important time and it's a very exciting time to be thinking about these issues. But the good news is the bus drivers are back. So, did Montpelier, did they start that experiment with that different transportation model or did they have to stop it because of the pandemic? Which one? They were gonna do one that was more decentralized, right? Where they were going to go off route and be more like, ooh, I wish I think, you know, I, there was a name for that. On demand is what you're talking about. Did that get nixed because of pandemic and surge? I thought it was in place, but it did, huh? I don't know. I'd just like to know how that, if they did do it, but it's successful, how can we apply it here so we get rid of empty boxes going in circles, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I did see an electric bus the other day. There are two electric buses still left. They're still working. Yeah, there was problems with them because they would power down if they were half-ball. And those largely have been worked out, but it's been taken a lot of work with the manufacturers. And I'm sure they... What do you mean they would power down if they were half-ball? So they would get to 50% and the computer... The battery? Yeah, the battery. Even though they had 50% left, something in the computer chip or whatever would tell them, get back to the station you can't continue on. So they really only get half, they're only utilizing, it's like they're using half a tank against for whatever reason, but that's just a computer software issue. They finally resolve. Problem is the buses are so large that they can't do the rural routes. Right. And excuse me, the rural routes, the in-town routes. Oh, they're too... They're bigger than the standard routes. Right, they're huge, right? And then at half a charge, you couldn't do the long routes. So everyone was sort of frustrated by that process. But the manufacturer stepped up after a long delay and fixed that computer software issue. But the real, you know, when you get the smaller cutaways that can do the in-town routes that are run on electric that will, that would make more sense. And any other reports you have on coming up? So I'm hoping you don't have a report yet. Oh, from the police. I heard Jesse Baker talk about the pension advisory. I don't know if it's coming, I don't know one of this. Okay, it'll be three months from the last one. I know that. What's that? Is it next week? Next Tuesday. Yeah. Oh, well, I guess I'll have to report next time. Can I make the order? Tuesday at two. It'll be something like the market is up, the market is down. We're okay. All right, I think other business then. Yes. Yes. Just quickly, thank you to Public Works for the accomplishments of the painting project over the summer, even though they didn't do it, but I'm just, I think it's, what we have paved is good quality. Spear Street is great. Other streets are good too. I know Dorset Park was done, right? What I'm asking is that it's starting to get cold. And if we have any leftover potholes, it'd be great to seal them up before we get our first snow. So the nice thing to have report is that I don't have any potholes report, if they have records of people complaining about some holes somewhere in the city, let's get them filled up as soon as possible. I know we have the Kauffman tar wagon, right? Is a trailer that is full of, yeah. So isn't that the Dane Kauffman tar wagon or something like that? I have no idea. I hope that gave you the opportunity. I don't remember that. You guys have five conversations over there. As long as we're not as bad as the northern end of Pine Street, that would be really great. Because it is like a minefield, especially when it bicycles. All right, any other business? All right. So I guess I will entertain a motion to adjourn. So moved. Thank you. All in favor. All right. All right, excellent. Thank you all for your patience, Wayne. Technology. We finished a half hour. This is a task. A half. For the non-record, the building being proposed that Roseanne was talking about. This conference is no longer being recorded. So all their electrical needs. Of course. It's only the two hour one.