 And taking own research on that, we now we propose some option for natural carbon emission roadmap for state owner enterprise in Vietnam, and we hope we can have a result and the project result in the January of 2023. And for further study, we would like to suggest and finding some potential partner to join us to research on the impact of energy transition on the economic development in Vietnam and in South Asia. And for long term immigration climate change solution for Vietnam and also for Soviet Asian country. And we have some potential research on the energy transition of regional transport sector and the option for develop the competitive power market mechanism in the Soviet Asian country. That's all for my presentation. Thank you so much. If you have any question, I would like to answer. Thank you so much. Thank you very much Dr fan for not only telling us about the energy transition in Vietnam, but also giving thoughts to the things that we could possibly do together as a region. So your thoughts here will feed into our working meeting tonight very well. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay, our next speaker is Dr. Popet QV Lavon from the National University of Laos. Laos is a country where when people want to buy a new car, electric vehicle easily has easily become the first choice because of the cheap electricity that enabled by hydro power. So, Popet is going to talk to us about forestry and land use today. Thank you Dr. Yon Jung. Thank you organizer for giving me great opportunity to share with you my previous research on the forestry and land use and some action that I really did about the payment for environmental services in the case of Laos. As we know that achieving natural admission is very, very challenging and very, very difficult for us because of many reasons. One of the reasons I think this is human nature. We are, I think it's quite a little bit selfish and we don't really care much about the environment. If we're talking about saving the economy, many people learn to that, even though the dog, you see. Yes, but yeah, thank you to ASEANKIN Future Project that I have good chance to discuss with high-ranking government official to show them the option and challenge and what should be done in the near future. So they need the support for that. As you see the forestry and land use is very compact ecosystem, something that you cannot, if you destroy it, you cannot bring it back, not like movie, Jurassic Park, something like that, right? Because it is really heavily affect on us in dialect and in dialect and in dialect way. The problem because of forestry resources have significant value and but however in the world is forestry land forest resources declined significantly. I think this is according to study from that about 3.2 million hectares per year. This is significant. If you see the land cover in ASEAN also in our country have trend to decline, but some countries is increasing but maybe they're growing up the forestry something but this is not really real land forest, something like that, right? So that this cause is looting biodiversity and you see in case of my country and that endangered species and so on now most animal is disappear if we don't have the forest. So when we think that the reducing CO2 emission the forestry and land use sector is very important, not only now but in many country if you can see the share is almost 90% want to reduce that one. But please understand that is forestry and land use is highly linked with the poverty poor people in one with agriculture sector. So if we do not do is right thing we're going to cause the problem with damage environment and forestry so that I think this is really important. Now you can see the COP 27 they have some movement Prime Minister of Brazil declared that they want to stop deforestation in Amazon and that they have some initiative that we need to have to working hard on this more. And one thing that challenging for this sector, I think this is one of the most important thing is deforestation is about don't understanding much about we understanding about the direct use value on this and we just how much the timbal that can sell by cubic in the market we don't really even though the policymaker economy and don't understand the indirect use of the forestry. So that that that thing is is I think this is very important challenging because this is the very long term problem that who know something that in protected area somewhere we can find some genetic to co other cancer or something like that. So that that that thing. So in economics and we have the problem because of the forestry resources is open access right no property right people is country poverty country poverty is meant everyone can access maybe if you don't have to go legalization that thing so that how to solve this issue I think it is to give our country we give the land, the right to the private sector to develop a go to listen in the protected area. That is, is what we, we try to do. And now the government try to dub in dub degree and legalization to promote more that because the government has the money to hide the pattern team to tell only to allow protected area, so that we need more support from the private sector. And another thing is in my country because some area, not only my country but another country to the land work title land right is is not really well defined. People don't don't have the land right. So they have to rely on slot and burn activity. So that is very challenging. Let me share with you the my project did I did with some professor from a new with support from the Australia government that about payment for environmental services. And we did the study for about three or four years. The fighting from that one. And we got the money from the word bank and EPF environmental protecting fund and Leo implementing it. The idea is we to try to achieve two things. First is protecting biodiversity and forest resource. Second is achieving improved livelihood of the people. So we assume that everyone like to release and listen and we'll pay the money to support the village to be the pattern team. And, and that, right. So that providing by incentive and we do the binding activity. If you're interesting on about our paper academic paper and resource you can go to the website. We have that. Surprisingly, by give, you know, the right for the village village or community to be the partner. We found a lot of illegal locking in protected area, but the government pattern team, they did not find anything. Right. So, so maybe they look in the sky and they did not see the Leo going on. So I think that the key message here if we are in one local people and village people, we can really achieve deforestation. Right. So that that the message that we did. And we found a lot of things going on inside the protected area. So, in addition, we also they have the improved livelihood of the people we give funding thing is very successful and I think this is, we teach them how to make honey. So the main income of the, the villager that the, that we did the pilot project is this from the honey they're selling honey, more than 1000 kilo per year. Right. That's just some one thing just train them how to do that. Now, it seems that they did not do so large and burn much because they are fed they be we will die, something like that. So that, in addition, we also helping them the infrastructure by contacting with the village head of village. If you can help us to protect it for last three resources and biodiversity, you can have some small money. In addition, not also the scientific activity, we also bought the religion perspective. Also, we bought more to do some activity to protect it for last three. You see that, and that the former Minister of Natural Resources and environment also there. So we did everything that we could to protect the forestry, forestry resource and biodiversity for our next generation. So they see that activity that we did. So, you know, sometimes it's very difficult for me so I, because it seemed, um, sometimes I feel fear because I went I went to this on the village what is study because I'm the leader because I took the gun. So, though, some people they don't have. Yeah, it's some a little bit conflict, but anyway, I'm still alive here. Yeah, this is one thing that if they have the commitment from local politician and villager, I'm sure that we can protect that right, not rely on much on the government that government just give light to the local community and we can do. So another challenge is the funding and something and so on that, that we need more because of the law, government facing the big budget deficit and we don't have much money to support. So my conclusion here I think this is we need more support for funding and the education and capacity building for the Academy and Coleman policy maker is is very important try to train them try to understand them. And the last thing I think how to find a championship of politician political view. They really want to do it. If they want, I think we can achieve that the problem maybe not well yeah in one with many things so that it is my presentation that I think that I think is government policy leadership and law enforcement. I think this is very important to achieve this. That's, that's all my presentation. Thank you. Thank you very much for pet for your very interesting presentation. You did a cartoon that you showed about people rushing when they, when the economy is to be saved, but there's much less interest when ecosystems need to be saved. And that has to do with mindset change. If people realize that the economy and actually human lives need to exist within ecosystems, then maybe the crowd will move differently. So that's one of the things that we need to do and isn't expanding people's understanding of what supports what what lives within. What is the subset of what. And you talk about people paying attention to the direct consumptive value that again has to do with the same mindset question, have people need to learn to understand the complex value of an ecosystem provides and not just of the locks that they can cut and bring out of the forest. And about the point that ecosystems once destroyed cannot be easily brought back. I think sometimes we hear governments corporations, they, they will cut first and they say they will replant it back somewhere else. While replanting restoration, it costs a lot of money and it takes a long time and it doesn't always work. So it's usually better to to leave the natural ecosystem as they are rather than to cut first and repair later that's a fallacy. And I found it interesting that you brought out the religious approach to and to mobilize people to preserve forest. I think religion is an important components in Asian society life, and now stepping into that I think that is very good and that is something that maybe the rest of us can can emulate. And I also like what you said about the local empowerment of the local communities that so that they, and they seem to be doing their job better than government officers. Because local communities they have ownership they feel a sense of ownership of the environment that they live in that is the environment that is supporting them. So surely they will have more interest they will pay more attention to the ecosystem than some government offices that than most government offices that gets sent in from outside to perform the task. Thank you for that. All right, next, we have Tan Jun Ray from Nanyang Technological University. He's going to talk to us about the carbon challenges in Singapore. A very good afternoon to friends and distinguished guests. I'm Jun Ray from the Economic Growth Centre of Nanyang Technological University in Singapore, and I'm very honored to be invited to the ASEAN Green Future Panel hosted at Sunway University. Today, I'll be summarizing updates and issues related to the carbon challenges of Singapore. Singapore was ranked 133 out of 159 countries in terms of per capita emissions globally, but the International Energy Agency in 2021 despite only contributing to about 0.1% to global emissions. This shows that simply having awareness of our carbon footprint is insufficient. We also have to actively practice and advocate sustainable behaviors, not just for cost and convenience, but also more importantly for the sake of the environment. Although, since 2014, about 95% of Singapore's energy generation comes from natural gas, which is either imported directly via pipelines from Malaysia and Indonesia or in the form of liquid-fired natural gas from countries such as Australia and the US. Although natural gas is a cleanest fossil fuel, achieving that zero O requires reducing dependence on it as soon as possible. As can be seen from the diagram, there is a rising trend of greenhouse gas emissions from the burning of natural gas over the years to meet our energy demands. Since 2019, Singapore's common tax is applied on facilities that directly emit at least 25,000 tonnes of CO2 equivalent of greenhouse gas emissions annually, which covers 80% of Singapore's national greenhouse gas emissions, including fuel excise duties, about 90% of Singapore's total emissions face a price signal. As of now, the carbon tax is set at $5 per tonne of greenhouse gas emissions. This is relatively very low compared to other countries and a standard set by IMF and IEA. In February 2022, it was announced that the carbon tax rate would be raised to $25 per tonne of greenhouse gas emissions in 2024 and 2025, $45 in 2026 and 2027, with a goal of reaching $50 to $80 by 2030. The revenue from the carbon tax is used to support businesses and households in reducing their emissions. There have been much talks at UN-COPER-HIGGEM 27 summit about how Singapore and Southeast Asia will be paying close attention to developments on just transitions, which refers to the goal of mitigating the negative impact of decarbonisation on economies and communities that are dependent on high carbon activities for their fundamental needs. Regarding the carbon tax, it needs to be high enough for the economy to internalise the social cost of carbon emissions and to disincentivise emitters from producing excessive emissions. However, there are many challenges. For example, there are higher, less avoidable operational costs for big emitters for the manufacturing, transport, petrol chemicals and especially the power generation sectors, which contributes to 40% of Singapore's total emissions. The feedstocks that originate from fossil fuels may not be easily substituted with low carbon sources and to produce enough to meet current demand. Although I would say that it is somewhat encouraging that the revised carbon tax trajectory is said to be comparable with major companies' internal carbon prices. It is possible that Singapore may lose strategic advantage to other regional competitors such as Thailand, South Korea, India and China in oil refining and petrol chemicals industry if costs of production ends up becoming too high. There is also the risk of hurting competitiveness if carbon emissions are reduced without considering its impact on GDP. Why I say this is because Singapore's emissions intensity target was switched to an absolute emissions one in 2020. With Singapore's climate ambition even being recently raised to peak emissions before 2030 and to achieve net zero by 2050. Although I also say that the silver lining is that Singapore may be less negatively affected by any possible carbon border tariff adjustments by producing cleaner exports in the near future. And also there may be an increase in cost of living when these affected sectors pass on some of the tax burden to consumers through increased electricity tariffs. So the extent to which such costs will rise will be determined by how much of the carbon tax is shared between all the affected parties. When electricity tariffs increase not only will our utility bills go up but so will all other expenses such as food, transport, retail and recreational pursuits. Activities such as eating our leisure with more substitutes will be more price sensitive as compared to other goods such as utilities and transport where consumers will bear a larger portion of the tax. A carbon tax of $50 to $80 per tonne of greenhouse gas emissions is estimated to translate to costs of $220,000 to $353,000 for Singapore's specialty chemical sector which contributes to 78% of embodied carbon. A $25 per tonne of greenhouse gas emissions is estimated to lead to an increase in about $4 in utility bills for an average household. Therefore, I feel that firms and household preferences should be elicited for the willingness to accept such increase in cost of production and living amidst rising inflation using stated preference methods in cost-benefit analysis. With a global marketplace in exchange for carbon credits based in Singapore, known as the Climate Action Act, companies may surrender high-quality international carbon credits to offset up to 5% of the taxable emissions from 2024. This provides flexibility for hard-to-abate sectors, yet maintaining the incentive to decarbonise. With the conclusion of Article 6 of Copenhagen 26, Singapore has inked agreements with Australia, Vietnam and Colombia to collaborate on carbon credits, and it has also started talks with more than 20 countries. The region's carbon offset market is estimated to create US $10 billion in economic opportunities annually by 2030. The energy-efficient fund supports companies in the industrial sector, including small and medium-sized enterprises, to improve energy efficiency. The support cap was recently raised from the carbon 50% to 70% of qualifying costs per project. This will further lower the barrier for manufacturing companies to adopt energy-efficient measures. The introduction of a transition framework for emissions-intensive trade-exposed sectors, such as energy and chemicals, recognises that companies in these sectors face competition in jurisdictions with lower or no carbon prices. More efficient facilities will receive more transitory allowances. And I also like to say that the Singapore Green Finance and the Singapore Management University in Singapore has been studying the integration of ESG impacts with further financial statements of listed companies by quantifying them in comparative and transparent units to provide a holistic picture of the overall performance of reporting organisations, so as to provide an accurate metric for equity investors when it comes to sustainable investment. Resilient and sustainable food production has been a topic of interest for Singapore and Copenhagen 27. Based on a life-cycle assessment, researchers noted that as Singapore imports more than 90% of its food supply, most embodied greenhouse gas emissions from food production comes from the air transportation stage. 29% of the average Singaporeans diet consists of poultry, eggs and seafood. However, meat products are significantly higher greenhouse gas emissions than fruits and vegetables. They found that by replacing 25% or 50% of red meats with plant-based meats, including more foods and vegetables in our diet, plus achieving 30% of the efficiency in food production by 2030 can lead to a significant reduction in per capita and absolute greenhouse gas emissions. The International Council on Clean Transportation did a recent study on the climate impact of purchasing and loading marine fuels at the port of Singapore. Singapore accounted for about one-fifth of reported marine fuel sales globally in 2019. Burning heavy oil, heavy fuel oil in marine engines emits five particulate matter, sulfur outsides and nitrogen outsides. In Singapore to account for these greenhouse gas emissions associated with the residual fuel itself, its total climate impact is said to be four times higher than what its national inventory implies, which could result in per capita emissions six times greater than the global average. Therefore, Singapore will need to transition to low carbon bunkering if it wants to remain an important bunker in port. Honestly, alternative energy sources is a major challenge in Singapore. Regarding biomass, waste-to-energy only accounts for 3% of our electricity generation. However, Singapore's fifth waste-to-energy plan allows the co-sharing of food waste and water sludge to generate up to three times more biogas in conventional sludge treatment processes. Regarding geothermal energy, Singapore has no known shallow heat source but has several hot springs and estimated anomalous heat flow. Advanced geothermal systems have made it possible to harness heat from deep hot dry rock with minimal impact to environment and safety. Hydroelectricity, tidal, wave power and wind energy are not technically feasible for domestic production and will have to be imported. Singapore aims to import up to four gigawatts of low-carbon electricity by 2035, making up 30% of its power supply. Singapore has signed the first multilateral cross-border power trade agreement which allows imports of up to 100MW of renewable hydropower from Laos to Singapore via Thailand and Malaysia using existing interconnections. Incidentally, this benefits all four countries by establishing a regional market for electricity trading, promoting investments, enhancing regional supply security and also promoting cost competitiveness. Singapore also aims to import solar generator electricity from Australia with the longest high-voltage undersea cable in the world. With regards to hydrogen, electricity prices are estimated to climb to two to three times their current rates if Singapore were to switch out natural gas for low-carbon hydrogen. And this is even after assuming that hydrogen-compatible infrastructure is already built up, so this does not seem too optimistic in this regard. With regards to nuclear energy, conventional, large-reactor technologies were previously assessed to be unsuitable for deployment in Singapore. The risk of nuclear energy was set to outweigh the economic and environmental benefits given Singapore's small size and high population density. However, recent significant developments in nuclear technology have helped to make it safer and more reliable. For example, small-border reactors, generation 4 nuclear technologies and nuclear fusion development. The government has identified nuclear energy as a potential power source for the country by 2050 and concluded that nuclear energy could supply about 10% of the country's needs. Solar energy is our most viable renewable energy source. Grid parity, meaning the cost of renewable electricity generation is equal to or cheaper than the price of using power from conventional fossil fuel sources, has been achieved as early as in 2011. However, there are several concerns when it comes to solar PV. For example, besides the variability of energy collected, we have issues of high cloud cover, high humidity, high temperature and frequency of lightning strikes in Singapore which hinders this PV cell efficiency and shortens their lifespan. Recycling solar panels is also costly as materials used to construct solar panels such as aluminum, glass and silicon are difficult to separate. Moreover, Singapore already generates more than 60,000 tonnes of e-waste each year. Regarding company capture and tap storage technologies, there is a lack of suitable geological formations such as oil and gas fuels for the permanent storage of CO2 underground. A substantial amount of energy is also needed to separate and concentrate this CO2 from emissions of industrial facilities and power plants, as well as the conversion of CO2 and chemicals. In 2021, petrol vehicles still largely dominated the car population in Singapore. Car buyers may feel more strongly about the higher upfront immediate cost of owning an electric vehicle more than the long-term gains in lower energy consumption and maintenance fees. EV battery production also increases Singapore's dependence on a few selected economies for rare earth minerals such as lithium, cobalt and nickel. There is also unclear information on the resale value of EVs and current software limitations to conveniently locate EV charging points. However, the EV market is expanding steadily and costs are expected to decrease with more competition, rebates and infrastructure support in the near future. Because of limitations in rooftop space, generation capacity and competing use of space with other public projects, Singapore has also constructed several existing and upcoming floating solar farms and water bodies. With the largest one, as you can see the slide with the capable of offsetting more than 4,000 times of CO2 equivalent per year at the Straits of Johor. An area of concern regarding this solar PV project has been whether appropriate cost-benefit analysis have been conducted to measure trade-offs of such projects against the MNAC values and biodiversity that might have been sacrificed by covering this natural reservoirs with solar modules. Therefore, renewable energy in the overall electricity mix should be valued by prioritising the various trade-offs of the environmental impacts. So to sum up my key takeaways, I feel that despite all constraints and unique circumstances, Singapore is still committed to reducing emissions across all sectors to support global climate action. And to mitigate the following trade-offs, we should identify what it means for the optimal carbon tax and how do we redistribute revenue from carbon tax to ensure just transition during green restructuring. And importantly, we also need to track down all sources of embodied ambitions and adopt a circular economy approach to resource and waste management. We need to solicit public preferences for comprehensive cost-benefit analysis, reconciling energy, reconciling engineering with economics, as well as shaping mindsets and commitment. And also to strengthen collaboration between the government, industry players and the community, both domestically and internationally. I also think that the one way to standardise the ESG reporting framework for listed companies is by having a common set of ESG variables, quantification methods using cost-benefit analysis, and then taking a combination of elements from international frameworks such as the Global Reporting Initiative, the Task Force for Climate Related Disclosures, SSAB, etc. Thank you very much for the time. Thank you very much, Henry, for your comprehensive overview for Singapore. It's interesting to hear you're highlighting the sale, how the sale of marine fossil fuels contribute to significant GHG emissions. And Singapore noting the importance of developing low-carbon bunkering. Otherwise, your neighbours could be taking away that business from Singapore. And I also found it interesting to hear that Singapore is seriously considering nuclear power. Singapore is small, so I wonder where you all plan to place your nuclear power plants. Can I have my slides please? Alright, today I would like to share with you the net zero pathways for Malaysia. This interim report on Malaysia presents the main findings of the country team in 2022 after the completion of the Phase 1 report last year. And the objective of releasing this interim report is to seek feedback and to trigger discussions. I will highlight key messages from seven sectors that Team Malaysia studied this year. Next slide please. First, electricity generation. Okay, actually I want it. Okay. This chart shows Peninsula Malaysia's power generation capacity mixed by fuel planned by the Energy Commission. From 2030, we see that there is a big slowdown in renewables. Our question is, should deployment be increasing faster than this? At least at the rate in the 2020s, particularly given how cheap renewables are today. Peninsula Malaysia and Sabah's solar penetration limits are set at 24% and 20% respectively, based on a solar penetration limit assessment study done in 2018. The cost benefit analysis assumed that network and system remains as is and did not analyse scenarios of network evolution and management tools like demand side response, energy export, etc. The capacity of the electricity grid to absorb variable renewable energy should not limit Malaysia's ambition to develop its large solar power potential, which is 259 gigawatts. Besides demand side response and energy export, green hydrogen and ammonia and storage could support further growth in solar energy provision. Previous slide please. We recommend that Malaysia revisits nuclear power. New nuclear power will be among the cheapest dispatchable low carbon power producing technology by 2025. The top chart shows that nuclear power is in a similar levelized cost of energy range as utility scale PV. The bottom chart shows that nuclear power is low emission. Ending the life of existing nuclear power plants is the most cost effective source of low carbon electricity and has limited project risk. Regulatory controls and approvals, supply chain readiness and availability of local nuclear expertise affect the cost of nuclear power on the ground. A country that is doing it for the first time should expect the cost to be higher than a country that has been building and managing a fleet of nuclear power plants. To reap the benefits of lessons learned, Malaysia should plan for multiple projects instead of just one and develop local nuclear expertise. Surface transport. In 2021, the Malaysian government released a low carbon mobility footprints. Li Chengcheng, who is not here with us today because he is running for election, conducted a review and made four observations. Number one, better data collection and quantification of energy efficient vehicles are needed because its energy and carbon reduction contribution were not counted in Malaysia's third biennial update report to the UNFCCC in 2020. Number two, the low carbon mobility blueprints EV electric vehicle promotion is less ambitions. Number three, Eco driving program yields much benefits, but is often overlooked by policy makers. He recommends prioritizing this initiative. And number four, a biodiesel program is well suited as a transition option for the heavy freight sector that travels long distance and often lack in fuel economy improvement. Marine transport. 58% of carbon dioxide emissions in ports from shipping are in Asia and Europe, which is lower than their share of port calls of 70%. The ports with the largest absolute emissions due to shipping are Singapore, Hong Kong, Tianjin in China and Port Klang in Malaysia. Most shipping emissions in ports will grow four times up to four times reaching 2050 and Asia and Africa will see the sharpest increases in emissions. As port and coastal communities in Asia are exposed to substantial air and water pollution from fuels purchased. VJ Ceylin highlights that countries like Malaysia could win twice by producing and selling renewable marine fuels at its ports. First, by reducing local air and water pollution. And second, by capturing the economic benefits of new renewable marine fuel markets. Malaysia could participate in regional and international efforts to advance green shipping corridors. For example, northward along coastal China and then extending to East Asia, westward to India, the Middle East and then Europe and throughout the ASEAN region to Australia. Manufacturing. The net emissions of the country in 2016 was 75 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent. Andrew Fan found that the new blast furnaces in the pipeline will add 30 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent as early as 2024. This is an increase of 40%. In the near term, Andrew emphasises the need to stop issuance of new blast furnaces licenses. In the long term, we need to adopt advanced near zero emissions technology. For example, hybrid and lilac. To enable adoption of advanced near zero emission technologies, technology transfer and concessionary finance under the Paris Agreement needs to be activated. This photo shows Andrew Fan participating in the Southeast Asia SteelMega event and expo two days ago to communicate findings and thinking from the ASEAN Green Future project to industry practitioners. Methane emissions contributed to 17% of greenhouse gas emissions in Malaysia in 2016. The major source is fugitive emissions from the oil and gas industries. Malaysia was the second largest oil and gas producer in Southeast Asia and the fifth largest exporter of liquid natural gas in the world in 2019. Malaysia has yet to introduce formal laws or policy measures for methane abatement. However, at COP26 last year, the country has signed the Global Methane Pledge to reduce methane emissions by 30% by 2030. Petronas has in turn pledged to avoid routine flaring in new oil-filled developments and routine flaring at existing oil production sites by 2030. Based on estimates for the cost of abatement, a majority of methane abatement measures covering a large portion of emissions can be enacted at zero or less cost. Most are likely to even have a small return on investments. Thus, Malaysia is capable of meeting the Global Methane Pledge target and even go beyond. Agriculture The key understanding concerning agriculture is that soil fertility is not something that is poured out of a bag. But as a highly sophisticated fertility ecosystem of microbes that live in the soil and co-exist with the crop roots, symbiotically preparing the nutrients for the crop roots to absorb. Like humans, microbes need to be fat and housed. Microbes require carbon to build up energy for their development and nitrogen for building up proteins. Increasing soil organic carbon by just 0.4% annually would increase global production of major food crops by 20-40% per year. An annual increase of 0.4% increase in soil carbon content leads to an additional 1 gigaton of carbon being sequestered per year on average. Soil carbon sequestration is a recarbonisation pathway that sustains the health of ecosystems. Which then manifests as soil fertility, agricultural productivity and wider services beyond production that soil underpins. This will reduce the demand for chemical fertilisers and hazardous pesticides which come with high carbon footprints. We have the following recommendations. Number one, commission a study on how to set up and implement result-based carbon farming mechanisms in Malaysia. Develop pilot initiatives at a local or regional level to build experience for upscaling carbon farming. Governments need to develop a regulatory framework for certifying carbon removals based on robust and transparent carbon accounting to monitor and verify the authenticity of carbon removals. Malaysia and Southeast Asia need new agricultural policy, ecological schemes and funding that reward agricultural practices that fight the climate and biodiversity crisis. Carbon farming can be a new green business model that creates a new source of income for farmers based on the climate benefits they provide. Forrestry, mechanisms that are well suited for protecting forests from economic pressures of deforestation are carbon pricing instruments, ecological fiscal transfers and payments for ecosystem services. Malaysia already has ecological fiscal transfers and the domestic emission trading scheme ETD ETS is scheduled to launch next month. But there is a lack of international carbon deals involving Malaysia. Therefore, Justin Liu recommends increasing efforts on accessing larger-scale international carbon markets to protect its remaining rainforest. We also recommend developing new bioeconomic value from forests. Any available abandoned or degraded land identified from remote sensing and ground drilling should be utilized for industrial timber plantations, wood processing and bio refineries. A forest-based circular bioeconomic business model has the potential to exceed agriculture and petroleum in providing attractive and sustainable revenues for cash-strapped state governments. The key to understanding what drives sustainable forestry is to understand the difference between consumable goods and capital assets. It is the difference between immediate value consumption and long-term value creation. Alright, that's the end of the presentation from Malaysia. We can take one question because we are supposed to hand the time over to Affek now. Thank you very much. My name is Yoshino from Japan. Excellent presentations. I think taxing on CO2 emission is one of the ways to mitigate Indonesia and Singapore is adopting it. But there are two taxations. One is input taxation, which is the fuel taxation. Another one is output. Energy sector, chemical sector has huge outputs of CO2 emission. Then in Indonesia and Singapore case, how are you going to charge those output emission of CO2? And would it be possible to measure how much they are exposing? And secondly, taxation could be net tax. In other words, exposure minus effort of greenness, for example planting trees and so on. That could be deducted from those CO2 emission. That can be encouraged the renewable energy investment and so on. So those two are my comments. Thank you very much for excellent presentations. Thank you, Professor Yoshino. Would Aline and Jun Ray like to respond? Yeah. Carbon tax in Indonesia are still under discussion. It should be implemented in April 2022, but because of several things we delay the implementation. And we apply, it is quite uncommon, what's so-called cap and trade just for cold fire power plants, but it actually cap and trade and tax. So the tax comes after the trade. It is quite uncommon actually, but because of what? Because in this cold fire power plant, we are already piloting the cap and trade. And when the tax law, new tax laws come in, we want to just to put the tax as the penalty. It's like actually the EU system, but the penalty become the tax. But we want to expand the sector and also it is also likely to change the system become the pure tax. We tax based on the emission, so not combining cap and trade and tax. But the Ministry of Finance now still developing the roadmap of carbon tax. But the problem is the Ministry of Environment and Forestry also in charge for the carbon market, the ETS discussed also with the technical ministry. So the problem is now how to harmonize all the carbon pricing instrument. Because carbon tax is only one of carbon pricing instrument. And for example, which sector we want to impose carbon tax and which sector for ETS, for example, it should be harmonized, right? So we don't want to see like one sector is like double, double impose on carbon pricing. So this is our homework to harmonize all the carbon pricing instrument. I think this is my general comments. Thank you, Arlene. Chun-Rui, you have something to add? Yeah, so I'd like to say that as of now, the Singapore's carbon tax is still, the way it's calculated is still, I would say it's not very transparent. So there's like there's not much of a mechanism to it. It seems quite arbitrary. And so yeah, I totally agree that. So I think it was really like start from the firm level as to how that's why there's the, as I mentioned my presentation, the Singapore Green Finance Centre and SMU is like creating this impact with the framework. So as to like accurately measure, you know, these negative externalities of these carbon emissions. So only from the firm level that we like accurately monitor how much they pollute, then we can truly know whether we are we are taxing them correctly. And I also agree like, yeah, there's also this question about whether we should impose like, you know, like a universal tax or based on like sectorial, based on a sectorial basis. So that for example, like in the case of shipping emissions, the researchers noted that yes, there should be actually like a sort of like a carbon tax for marine fuel specifically. Yeah, perhaps. Yeah, so I think this is definitely an area for future research. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. So thank you very much country teams for your contribution to the panel today. And thank you very much to the audience. We want to hear from you so do reach out to us through email or in person later and back to you, I think. All right, everybody a round of applause to you and young and panel speakers. Before we proceed I just want to make a quick mention to those tuning in online. Many apologies to everyone on the live stream. We had some technical difficulties earlier but we hope you are all able to see us now. Our next panel discussion is on education for sustainable development. But before that we have the photo taken first. We'll just have a few minutes for facilities to move the furniture. Ladies and gentlemen, if you could take your seats, we're going to start the next panel discussion, just a brief overview again. To achieve the SDGs, every individual must acquire the sustainable development knowledge, global citizenship values and 21st century skills critical to tackling our shared challenges and to promoting a future of equitable, inclusive and resilient societies. Our next panel features as the SN colleagues who are leading the conversation about education policy and practice for the SDGs. Let me introduce the sessions moderator, Miss Shannon Cogren who leads the Asia Office of the SDG Academy as a since flagship education initiative. Over to you Shannon. Thank you very much. Can everyone hear me? If I could ask my fellow panelists to please join me up here. I am very happy to be part of this conversation about education for sustainable development today and I do want it to be a conversation. So no slides, nothing like that for us but do want to have a conversation about some of the work we're doing and we have a lot of different perspectives to share today. But before we get started, I will just introduce myself and some of the work that I do. So as Afiq said, my name is Shannon Cogren. And I lead the Office of the SDG Academy here based at our Kuala Lumpur location. And if you don't know the SDG Academy, if you've been tuning in for the last couple of days, I think you may have heard a little bit about us, but if you don't know. The SDG Academy is the flagship educational initiative of the UN-SDSN. And we create and curate free educational resources created by the experts that we have in our network so that we can educate the world about the SDGs and other very important topics related to sustainable development. So to date we have I think more than 40 massive open online courses or MOOCs about the SDGs and various topics related to the SDGs. And these have attracted a very diverse audience of policymakers, students, researchers, professionals, and just general concerned citizens. Also, in addition to creating these resources, we work with educators at various levels, particularly universities, but not exclusively to support any teaching training or capacity building activities when they want to help teach other people about sustainable development. Also, as part of our effort, SDSN is one of the co-founders of something you also probably heard about over the last couple of days. That is the Mission 4.7 Initiative. And this is a multi-partner initiative meant to advance SDG Target 4.7, which is the specific target of SDG4 focused on education for sustainable development. And sustainable development and global citizenship, I should mention. So to us, and I'm sure to most of you out there, this is really the center of the work that we do in sustainable development, ensuring that all learners of all ages have the knowledge, the skills, the perspectives and the values to make sustainable choices and lead sustainable lives no matter what they're doing now and in the future. So at the Mission 4.7 Global Secretariat, we help to advocate to improve education for sustainable development policy and implementation around the world. So helping to share best practices and tell those stories so that we can move the needle on the SDGs and ESD in particular. So we have Mission 4.7 sort of at the global level, but we also have it at the national level. And Karen Chen, who I will have to speak first here, she is SDSN's director of education studies here based at our Kuala Lumpur office and she is leading a Mission 4.7 Malaysia program. So Karen, can you introduce yourself please and tell a little bit about what is the state of transformative education in the country right now. Thank you Shannon. Good afternoon everybody. My name is Karen Chand and I am fortunate to say that I'm a staff member of the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Networks Asia headquarters and my responsibility is on the education for sustainable development projects. So the big thing that's happening in ESD at the moment is what we all know as Mission 4.7, which is a global initiative to essentially transform how education is delivered so that learners have a sustainable development mindset, which is very much focused on problem solving of the, you know, myriad problems. That they are facing and that young people will have to contend with in their futures. So, it's very new to us, we embarked on a pilot study of Malaysia last year, we've just completed it, and we've put out a report of the pilot study entitled Mission 4.7. I actually have it here with me but you're also able to access it online on the UN SDSN.org website as well as the Mission 4.7.org website. So the report in my hand is called Mission 4.7, the status of education for sustainable development in Malaysia. And the results of this study, of course, it really points towards the fact that public sector has to lead the way in providing a supportive policy environment first of all for education and sustainable development. Now for Malaysia, if you look at the most seminal policy document on education, it is what is known as the Malaysia Education Blueprint 2013 to 2025. It's an extremely comprehensive and ambitious plan and it is meant to be achieved in two years from now. Now, the document it proposes interventions to address very big challenges in the Malaysian education system, which it has very aptly identified and there are many and among them is the fact that the K-12 education in Malaysia is very much focused on cognitive type learning, passive type learning and very low on the socio-emotional and the behavioural type of learning, right? But even with the cognitive type learning, we are actually performing below expectation, below global average, below the average of countries at the development level that Malaysia is in. So apart from that challenge, other challenges identified is for a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic country like Malaysia, the diversity level in public schools is dangerously low. It's dangerously mono-ethnic. And another challenge that was identified is that teachers really need to be upskilled and empowered with newer and more innovative pedagogical methods, for example. These are challenges that have been identified and even though sustainable development is not explicitly mentioned in this policy document, but we find that almost all, like there are 11 shifts proposed in the Malaysian education blueprint. Of the 11 shifts, eight of them are consistent with the interventions that are proposed through education for sustainable development. So of course now there is a need I think to upscale ESD efforts through the policy landscape and that's where the public sector will come in. But there is also a role for private sector and I think private sector has to lead with innovation. Private sector has to lead with technology use in education. And very importantly, I think private sector also has to lead by providing financial support for the transformation of education that we all envisage. Thank you so much Karen for that summary of the report. And as Karen said that report is up on the UN SDSN.org website, particularly if you search the resources section for education resources on the tag education you can find it there. So you mentioned upskilling of teachers as one of the major things that needs to happen in order to move education forward education for sustainable development so I think it's kind of natural now that we turn to our next guest. Who is a project officer with SDSN's global schools program, as well as a current classroom teachers so Santa I wanted to ask you to give us a view from the ground as it were, especially through your journey as a global schools advocate and the work that you have done to teach yourself in order to teach others about sustainable development. Thank you Shannon. Good evening everyone. It is indeed an honor to be here. Normal regular teacher from Telain Tan being able to speak here is indeed an honor. So flashback to 2016 when I went to Jakarta through a program called YSEALY. So I was part of the women leadership academy and that's when I was introduced to the sustainable development goals. I didn't learn it at school. I was a brand new teacher graduated in 2015 and I was just thinking, what is this? You know, what is this brand new thing and that time the blueprint is out and you know, teachers have been told to go extra mile in teaching. But how much does do we get support in school? So I was hungry for opportunities as a young leader at school, new teacher, trying to look out for brand new opportunities out there and I stumbled upon two different opportunities. The first one was attending Leaps of Knowledge Conference by YTL Foundation and I was privileged enough to actually bring along two children from my school to attend that event which was actually the introduction of SDG itself. Then I realized the importance of ESD and SDGs and I was thinking, how can I bring it back to school? And looking at my colleagues when I asked around, do you know what is SDGs and they said, what is that? Like, is it a new curriculum? Do we have? Do we have a textbook for it? You know, and I was thinking, I'm alone here. Where is the group of community of educators who's championing ESD out there? So that's when I stumbled upon Global Schools Program. When I looked through Global Schools Program, Global Schools Program is actually an initiative under the UN-SDSN to actually equip educators out there from primary school level up to secondary school level to actually have the tools and skill to actually teach sustainable development on the ground. So currently we have the new cohort, we have 300 advocates from 75 countries with a total of 1,350 advocates which the school leaders have already signed the pledge to actually have education for sustainable development at their schools from 92 countries. So I was an advocate in the year 2019 roughly and my team leaders said, Santa you're doing amazing things at school. I know it's difficult for you to find the teacher community out there who champions ESD and I feel the pressure here Karen did mention in the ambitious curriculum and we are not at par. Frankly speaking, I would say the Malaysian education system is in crisis right now. I would say that outlaw tomorrow's election, I hope we get a new Minister of Education which you know, huffles. Global Schools Program has equipped me with continuous support and knowledge which allowed me to even attend the UNESCO Transforming Education Summit in New York to really look at the education crisis from the bottom ground. So I come from a national vernacular school in Tulantan. When Karen was mentioning about very, you know, schools are based on what your recent religion is like Tamil school, Tamil vernacular school, Chinese vernacular school. We should scrap all that and have one schooling system with having Mandarin and Tamil as an additional language to learn. I would love to learn Mandarin. I would love to learn French. And I was educated in a Chinese environment for Form 6 Island Mandarin somehow. And, you know, we need to overhaul the education system in Malaysia. I think you can't get more of an authentic perspective than that. Thank you so much, Santa. So we've been talking a lot here about primary and primary and secondary school, which is what a lot of our mission 4.7 work focuses on. But of course we know and the SDGs themselves stress that learning and learning about and for sustainable development is a lifelong endeavor, which is why I now want to turn to my boss, Professor Patrick Paul Walsh, who is STSN's VP of Education and director of the SDG Academy. Paul, you often talk about the continuum of education and really looking at how do we draw a through line from early childhood all the way through uni and graduate school and professional development. So if you could talk a little bit about hearing everything you've heard now and what you see is the trajectory of ESD. Thank you very much, Shannon. So this is a, so let me just talk about obviously when people, you know, view life, they are a prisoner of where they come from. So obviously for me, universities are the center of the universe. And they're the ones that actually, you know, have huge responsibilities for different things. So the first thing I just want to say is that in terms of the first thing we need is content. That's called open education resources for sustainable development. And you might think the universities would start off just thinking about, well, what does that look like in an undergraduate syllabus? What does it look like for the postgraduate, for the PhD, you know, but the reality is, is that where does the curriculum come in primary school and in secondary schools. And actually, when you look at it, it's normally the universities and the schools of education, departments of education, working together by committee actually designing all that curriculum. So the first thing that's actually happening right throughout the world at the moment is that the government and education departments are coming to the universities and asking us to co-create that curriculum. Right, it's a big need. The second thing that's happening is the universities, particularly with STSN, we've had meetings with presidents and meetings with, you know, deans of sustainability, etc. And they say, look, we get this, we get this, we want to have an undergraduate degree, postgraduate degrees, PhDs. There's only one issue here. Where's the curriculum, right? So there's a lot of work to be done in terms of designing curriculum and sharing curriculum, and we can talk about that later as well in terms of the university and what we can do in the networks helping each other on that. But the big surprise for me, coming into this role though, is obviously, you know, you talk about your experience as a teacher and the kids not getting sustainable about education and their futures and global citizenship, etc. The reality is, is that everyone in the workforce, you know, that's out of university have had no sustainable development education either, right? And suddenly, the private sector in particular are suddenly hearing about regulatory frameworks, carbon taxes, ESG, sustainable finance, right? There's absolute panic out there in terms of, again, them coming to us and to the universities, to the business schools saying, we need professional training and upskilling in this area. Can you give us the education resources? And again, what I'm going to say is that has to be co-created with the private sector, right? But it's the universities that do the professional training, like sometimes people forget that, you know, universities so involved in science and research papers and citations that the origins of universities were on the professional pillars, the training of teachers, the training of doctors, social workers, the training of lawyers, economists, the training of engineers, the medics, the training of social policy, right? All of that has to be upskilled and updated for sustainable development, right? And the thing is, while a lot of universities around the world are chasing the scientific stuff, which is fair enough, Stanford, Harvard, the best universities in the world have done a swivel. And you'll see the announcements that came on with the online MBA programs, all of this happening, right? This is big business at the moment, right? This is in terms of the professional element, right? So they're still students, they just are over 30 and they're all coming back to school and they want good lectures, they want a good degree. But it's basically, the market has shipped us really quite rapidly, right? So the first thing I'm going to say is we've a lot to work to do in terms of creating the content. And that content has to be open access, and we have to work at distributing it, giving it to people so they can repurpose it, translate it, update it, whatever they want to do, and create a commons around it. What we cannot do with that curriculum is what a private sector want to do is put a paywall on that. We'll end up just like, so open science is not just the research papers, not just the data. Open science now will be these learning management systems and what sort of curriculum are on them, right? And I'm just going to give you a brief story. So, whatever, in the global schools, you probably don't know this, right? But Sam Lone, the director of global schools, he came to Ireland and gave a talk at what we call the Young Environmental Awards, right? So the Young Environmental Awards is run by our president of the country. They're based on the Duke of Edinburgh Awards in the UK, right? The idea is that school teachers, they get trained up on kind of environmental projects, and then they train their kids, you know, to put their projects together. And then we actually have jurors, you know, jury from, you know, people from the government departments from the universities, etc. You know, picking, you know, the showcase and to pick the best awards and they end up with, you know, I don't know, the first, the second, the third place on all sorts of dimensions of environments, right? One thing that Eco UNESCO do is that the school, there was a problem that the Desha schools or the low income schools are the schools in the postal address that didn't really go to university, etc. They were not participating, right? So what we did is we set up these sort of county hubs where on Saturdays or at night, we would actually play the role of the teacher, we train them up, right? And then we put them into the competition. And actually, we got the Minister for Education like this. Jeffrey Sachs came over actually, and we did a session on this, and we actually brought them to the UN Youth Forum. And, you know, and this now the one thing that made me cross though, is that in talking to these Desha school students, I may suddenly realized they're not good at STEM. They're not going to be good at the high school exam. They're not getting into university. So, they're winning these awards, but yet there's no pathway. There's no pathway for them, right? So, the one thing that I advocated immediately and I've only done at my own university was we had an open learning entry, where if you did certain modules in university or online at our environmental, you can use them in lieu of the standard exams. So in other words, things that are testing non-STEM, things at science, you know, at social science, but it's applied to nature, applied to society, applied to global citizenship, right? Now that's important, right? And just to finish here, right? You know, even as an economist, if I'm a parent, I'm a government or a global organization, and you're asking me to invest in sustainable development education and non-STEM, right? I'm going to do the present discounted value revenues and the present discounted value costs, and I'm going to work out should I invest in this or not. And what matters here is that if I am from preschool, I can pick the preschool, pick the schools, the degrees and the jobs that they go to. There has to be a continuum of education and reskilling, and that has to happen in the private sector as well. So the jobs have to be there, the people have to be there to fill those jobs. And so that's why it's so important that we can't just say we do a global schools intervention and then do nothing else or don't reform the universities or don't reform the companies and the skidding, right? Because the problem is, if there isn't that continuum, the investment won't be there by people, it won't be there by the governments, and it won't be there by the international agencies, right? So that's why we have, that's why Mission 4.7 is everything, and we always emphasize the continuum of education. I hope that's clear. Yes, thank you so much. I think also it's not just that the continuum of education exists, like we have education from pre-K through the rest of your life. But I think the other point you made is, is the continuum kind of has to flow both ways in the universities in particular and the private sector, but particularly universities can be and should be instrumental in helping to transform the younger students as well and giving them opportunities and bringing that expertise to the rest of the continuum and not just among their ivory tower. You talked a lot about content and curriculum as well in, you know, for university teaching, but also applies to what we've heard of K through 12, so I'm actually going to come back to something and ask what kind, you said there wasn't existing support for this type of ESD teaching in your classrooms. Even though there are a lot of those wonderful elements in the blueprint, but you're looking at the blueprint and you're saying, I'm really busy now you want me to do what? So as one of those teachers who really did have the opportunity to go the extra mile and you've got the training. Can you tell us a little bit about how, what content do you use, what activities, what pedagogies, how do you implement this with your, with your kids? All right. So the curriculum, I will choose English, the subject I'll choose English. So if you are aware that the Malaysian English curriculum is already CEFR based. So if you open your children's primary school or secondary school textbook or, you know, your grandchildren's English textbook, it is very high standard. It's overseas based content and Malaysian localize. It's CEFR aligned. So I was selected through my district to be one of the master trainers for the CEFR curriculum. And ESD was like a part of like small bits of integrating values in the lesson because it's an English subject. So the focus was on language skills. So I was thinking, how can I bring my students into ESD? So I had the experience through global schools. I'm currently a project officer with them for partnership and events, but once for a time I was a networking. So I had the advantage of looking through DIA lesson plans. Global schools have amazing lesson plans. It's free for you to download. You can use it in your classrooms as well. So I went through each lesson plan and I was thinking, how can I bring it back to my own language classes without neglecting the language skills, listening, speaking, reading, and writing. I had the advantage of doing so in two different schools because during the pandemic I was transferred into a different school in the town of Tulientan. So I didn't want to neglect the ESD. So what I did was I had the advantage of having the textbooks from year one up to year six. The full curriculum, the learning standard and the content standard, and I was like flipping through page by page, looking how can I integrate ESD in my normal English classroom. So for example, what I did recently was year three syllabus, teaching them about places and one project that the children had to do was creating their dream farm. So I didn't mention what kind of farm animals that you should have. I didn't differentiate wild animals or farm animals on purpose. I told these children, go home, I'm going to give you two weeks time, create your own dream farm and parents were supportive. Parents were calling me day and night. It's like, what should we do? You know, where should we get this materials? I say use recyclable materials. You have tons of boxes that you're collected during the pandemic through your online shopping. Please use them. So you know, and students got super excited and I told them like, you need to present this in English fully, nine years old children and they'll say, did you we can't speak English? I said, what did you just say? You just hit three words in English. You can't speak English. What are you talking about? So when they came back to classroom, I told them to present their dream farm. So, and particularly a few children, they had wild animals in their dream farm. I was like, okay, let's, you know, this is interesting. And some of their classmates was like, you can't have wild animals in your farm. You know, your cows and goats will die, you know, and I said, it's fine, you know, let's discuss about it. You know, and I told the children, what did you learn? And they said, we learned how to make our own farm. So I asked them the next question, where do you want to build a farm? And none of them said Malaysia, sadly. I said, okay, you want to build it or says it's fine. Let's go back to this wild animal thing. So why do you think wild animal is dangerous for your farm? And they said, no, you know, our farm animals will be eaten up by the wild animals. I just asked them one question. What is, why is the wild animal in your farm in the first place? So they said, maybe because they ran away from their forest. I keep asking them, why did they run away from the forest? Maybe the trees are cut down. They don't have foams anymore. Deforestation. So I introduced ESD in context. They are speaking, they are, you know, using the language, fully in English, but I bring in ESD. So I went through the whole curriculum, the whole textbook. And, you know, we have topics like cool jobs, being a skateboard sportsman. So students were asking me, teacher, can we be a TikTok influencer someday? I'm like, you can, but what kind of content are you going to share? You know, and these children, these days, they learn a lot during the pandemic. I must say they are better off than the teachers in the classroom today. So yeah. So you, you had that whole conversation in English and you eventually got to deforestation. Yeah. So it was exciting to see the children's reactions. Like then they said, no more wild animals in your farm. It was like strict rule and we showed their parents their full, you know, speaking skill. We took videos of them presenting and their parents came to us and said, we didn't know that our children actually can speak in English. So the parents didn't know what they were learning during the pandemic. They just assisted them with whatever they have, but it was tough during the pandemic. And I really applaud all teachers and educators who went extra mile during the pandemic, you know, really going through the system, overhauling the system and, you know, back to lockdown and then back to school and then back to lockdown again. And then in Malaysia, the schooling term has changed from March to March. So yeah. It's been a wild ride. It sounds like it's been a while. I think the other thing I really appreciate about the example you shared and your experience as, as an English teacher in particular, I think for a lot of people when they think of ESD. They naturally think STEM science, maybe they think more on the social studies or if you're teaching a government or a civics class or economics if you have something like that. But something that I, I never miss an opportunity to say to people is is ESD is so fundamentally interdisciplinary and it can be woven into any subject that you want to teach. And I think your example as an English teacher was a perfect example of how to incorporate the lessons and the values and the aha moments of ESD into learning vocabulary and practicing speaking skills. So I'm really glad that we have an English teacher up here to to share that with us. But I think you also shared some interesting perspectives, your experience with the parents and the parents responding to their kids and what they're learning. And we have two parents on on stage now so Karen and then Paula I'd actually love to hear your perspective as parents and what you've seen in terms of ESD with your own children. Just to share a little bit of background, when we first started this mission 4.7 projects here in Sunway University. We actually didn't know where to begin there was no methodology that we could refer to on how to assess the level of ESD embeddedness. So, but knowing that we have the Sunway International School right here in our backyard. We thought okay, maybe we could speak to them first, perhaps there's something we could pilot at Sunway International Schools. So we spoke to the administration of SIS. And, and then they said, you know what do you guys really want to do something here because we use the Ontario curriculum in our schools. In fact, SIS is the only school in Malaysia that uses the Canadian curriculum. And they said because actually we already address a lot of sustainable development issues. And we were like, okay, that's interesting. So we, we actually studied what was included in their curriculum. And we found that yes, not only not only are there elements that are present throughout. We looked at primary and middle school throughout subjects, but it's, it's taught in a way that it actually provokes thinking like, like thinking big. It provides the foundational knowledge, but it also goes further and it, it, you know, it asks very interesting questions like, for example, in social studies. For grade one, I'm talking about grade one, they ask questions like, how do you see the people, the natural environment and the built environment in your neighborhood, working together to make living better. This, these are questions that, that are really thought provoking, and they are presented to grade one students. So to be honest, after looking at the Ontario curriculum, it actually convinced me to put my children in SIS. So I actually enrolled my kids in SIS and I'm extremely pleased with the, the sustainable development knowledge they are getting, even though it is not explicitly declared as ESD, but it is there. Now, having done the study on the Malaysian curriculum. And we know that the Malaysian curriculum has gone through several rounds of revision to keep up with the times we know that the Ministry of Education has put in a genuine effort in doing this. And the latest revisions were done in 2017, after the SDGs were, were implemented. And yes, there has been an absolutely genuine effort to include sustainable development in the curriculum. The pilot study that we did only looked at primary schools, and it, it exists in, in the languages, it exists in Bahasa, it exists in English, and it exists in science. It does not exist in math. And we did not look at moral studies and Islamic studies. However, when we studied it deeply, we did a detailed mapping of the curriculum against criteria of ESD. We found that it is provided on a, on a lack of a better word, a superficial level. It doesn't have that, that thought provoking element to it, like what Ontario does. And in the report, we also have an appendix comparing the two systems. So this is my experience as a parent. And I think maybe many parents out there who are also very particular about the, the quality of education that their children receive. These are things that we would look for, you know, what are the, the, the differentiating factors that schools deliver that would provide the best learning outcomes for our children. But unfortunately, international schools are very expensive and this, this again poses another challenge, which is, you know, you have, you have this great, this great inequality in learning outcomes between, you know, those who can afford to send their children for private and international education versus those who cannot. In fact, there's also an inequality in outcomes if you look, look at urban schools versus rural schools, more so urban schools in an affluent area versus even urban schools in where there's urban poverty. So these are other challenges, bigger challenges also under the ambit of sustainable development that that needs to be addressed. Yeah, I think we often think about equity as a separate issue you look at the way the SDG for is broken down and I forget. One of the targets is, is equity, but that the targets like all the SDGs are all interlinked so it's not like there's one issue that's the content of ESD and one which is just equity in education in general it's it's equity in all sorts of education including access to quality ESD. Well, if you if you want to share your perspective and if you have an example I'm particularly interested to know, you know, we heard about tech talk and we heard about the other ways that children are getting influenced in the ways of ESD so But before I, before I go into the kids and just what I think one thing that's important is on the curriculum side so like universities initially want to have electives, you know, some kind of a course that everyone takes across the different disciplines right and and that's kind of true in the primary schools as well in Ireland anyway with the pre with the green schools and like it's not a compulsory subject it's more kind of global citizenship or civics education, you know, or the green schools are these competitions right. And to be honest, the work to actually take mainstream economics or engineering or medicine and to really embody sustainable development into them and different examples. That's a huge body of work, and it's not really been done. You know what I mean. So I taught mathematics for economics for years. All my examples are profit maximization and mergers and cartels and you know, I mean and I could apply the maths to externalities and the management of natural resources and things but I, you know, it's a big body of work to be done right. Anyway, so my kids are so my kids are at now they're all teenagers so I 14 years three girls and one boy 13 to 19 years of age, but my my sample is not really a good representative example because you've got to remember. I went to New York, Jeff pulled me to New York during the post 2015 and during the negotiation of the SDGs right so my four kids back in 2014. That's kind of 10 years ago they were younger, but they were brought up in a household in New York, where I was going into the UN every day and we're all talking about the goals so that's one thing that they actually do about was something about the goals and the development right and it was kind of funny because, you know, one or two maybe they're not the best behaved in class or wouldn't, you know, show their talent because they're they all have talents. But one day in, I think was in one of them was in the politics of society. It's a leaving start or a high school subject. Suddenly there was this thing called who knows what the SDGs are and can you label them. Well, he never gets up he never says anything and he goes, ah, sustainable development goals, SDG one is, you know, no poverty SDG to is, you know, and, you know, and, and the teacher could not believe us saying what, like, you know, what has gone on here, you know, and he says, well, I've heard nothing about this since, you know, 2014 like so. So that's that but in terms of what is a bit serious though is, you know, it's very obvious to me that they're not learning some core kind of key skills like in terms of like teamwork, empathy, things like creativity, self driven independence, you know, these sort of real kind of skills that we need for the 21st century. And in terms of the subjects and the applications and case studies, like they're still very stem or business oriented they're they're not that way right. But the thing is from these green schools though and civics thing so, for example, I've got vegetarians in the house, they drive electric bikes, you know, they've got I had to get rid of my Jeep with the diesel engine, that's gone. You know, recyclable fashion is brilliant so one of the school projects that my daughter did was that she took photographs she got so basically you buy clothes right. And the thing about, and I am not an expert on this but seemingly girls will not wear the same dress, you know, in the same company ever again right so I mean, I've this is my suit of orange for the last 10 years and it barely fits me right but this is the way it goes right so what they've done is that on apps they took pictures of the clothes they bought, and they basically exchange them across the schools into different groups right so one dress you can maybe get 10 or 15 dresses out of it, and then they show this is recycling this is reusing this is sustainability and then afterwards they they give it to charity and stuff like this so. So the kids are doing all this sort of thing, but they're getting it from and then the great thing for dads is the be saved the bees right I didn't. But all of a sudden I realized I didn't have to cut the hedge, I didn't have to cut the grass because actually between March and October to save the bees. I let the garden go crazy right and, and that's been great right so, but I was educated on that right. Your children had the unique experience of growing up with this ad nauseam it sounds like so they could just. I didn't learn that for me it's they've they know about the stgs but what I'm trying to say is that the global schools and green schools. Like those sort of things are having a big impact, but the thing that we shouldn't. That's good news. The bad news is that the teachers though and the curriculum at a core do not have this embedded in them. I mean, that's for sure. You being a parent of teenagers. You are also a university professor are you seeing similar trends towards these like lifestyle changes maybe they, you know, not all the students know the stgs the way your children do but are you saying these similar trends among among young students that you teach. I guess I shouldn't be saying this example but so obviously we've started and you see we have the open learning. We have this now be a batches and science and sustainable development or we call it sustainability because that's what the scientists call it and the scientists dominate universities. You could do courses both in science and social science and law, and then we have the masters and the PhD so there is this continuum and it's it's big enough but it's still a small percentage of what's going on out there right. But one thing that is useful though is this mandatory not even mandatory but to have available electives, you know what I mean. And of course in in use in my university is normally you can do two out of 12 courses in anything. Let's say you call them, you know, broaden your horizons electives global whatever you want to call them right. But the thing that is kind of really emphasizes the problem. A lot of kids came into my class saying, I heard you were nice and you given a right so we're here right. And I have to fill my electives and I was late filling out my forms and there's nothing left and here we are right. But most of them at the end of the class which is quite nice to said, we'd never any idea that 50% of the oxygen we breathe comes from the ocean. We've no idea about this. How is that possible, right, and the things they learn. And, you know, when they actually start learning about how humans coexist with nature, and how we use it as a source and a sink and how we coexist with others and depend with others suddenly it's it opens up their minds right. And again, then they start setting up student societies, they start to come to academic councils and quieter and not more courses more degrees and and so on do not realize the burnt houses burning and we're not trying to put out the fire and all this sort of stuff. And that's great, but there's a real hardcore reality out there is that politics some of the key politicians, some of the key leaders in industry, the kids that come into our classes in the first year, have no idea about how they coexist with nature and people on this planet. And, and this is a problem. It's a major problem. So we need teachers like something to get them when they're younger so they, they don't have to resort to your course as the last. Then I can get the books you speaking my name. I think one thing that's really great, a program that they do here at some way that they piloted. I think last January was they have these these programs in Malaysia called MP use and these are these are government mandated programs that every, I think it's every private university student has to take. So we did one we at the SDG Academy we helped Sunway create one on sustainable development in Malaysia. And we sort of get around that that elective thing with with this mandatory course but we can ensure that every student here at Sunway has at least a baseline knowledge of the SDGs and the ones who really are going to grab on to that idea are going to be those students who go and they go, what do you mean we only we get 50% of our oxygen from the ocean we have to save the ocean and then they can go out and do that so it's, it's really a nice opportunity that that you have here in Malaysia and I'm sure other other schools can implement that, whether it's mandatory or not if you want it to be mandatory you're the university I guess you can do that. We are supposed to be wrapping up here so I'd love to hear sort of some last thoughts from all of you, particularly if we think of, we've had lots of perspectives shared perspectives. And national here in Malaysia we've had K through 12 primary secondary we've had university parents, and now I'd like to hear your perspective as learners. We are all learners lifelong learning is is a core part of the SDGs so your your final thoughts and your reflection on yourself as a learner of sustainable development. So, me being a teacher I had to equip myself like every single day, because my children know more than me. And it is a challenge for me because sometimes I enter classroom and children ask me tough questions which I can't answer. I asked them back where do you learn all this from teacher during the lockdown I learned this this is what my parents do at home. So, I actually read a lot and you know research a lot about the sustainable development and what I can teach them more in the classrooms. However, I would say that my generation has done the part of leading the way, having seat at the table the youth voice of educators being forward there. The generation after me is resilient enough to take action. The younger generation like 19, 20 years old, they know what to do. But I'm most worried about the real young ones. They have full literacy rate. It is not even in Malaysia is around the world. It is a crisis. And we need to work together to assist children from preschool kindergarten primary school up to secondary school literacy general knowledge. So what I do is whatever I experienced outside I come back and share with the teachers and the students. So, for an example, I've trained 25 teachers through a British High Commission grant pre cop 26 and we created a playbook designed by teachers for teachers to teach about and then the environment, and you can download the playbook on diria.com website. And what I do this this is like I share experiences so my recent trip to New York, stating the about the education crisis, I came back and share the teachers. I told the teachers like, hey, we need to help our children. I know all of us went through the pandemic together. We went through successfully. We do not want another lockdown and going through online teaching again. That's for sure. But let's get together, have a professional learning conversation among us, you know, and help this children because if you do not help them we are going to lose a big chunk of the future human capital. Our children are not ready for the future we have all the children, which kind of fought international school what are you going to do with them. So and I know amazing teachers out there, which you know we don't see on social media we don't see on tiktok, but they're doing amazing work so I would love to continue supporting those teachers out there. You know, so that we have enough human capital for the future of the country, and even the whole world as a learner. I just want to draw on your example of what's happening here at Sunway. So apart from the compulsory program that every undergraduate has to take every staff member to has to take a compulsory training program to understand the fundamentals of sustainable development. And that's not all as a learner. It's not just what the learning you have access to or the training you have access to. But it becomes much more meaningful when sustainability is also part of the physical installations in the in on campus. It's also applied in your day to day operations, it makes it that much more meaningful. And as a learner, I think that kind of what we refer to in this in this report as the whole of school approach makes learning very much more tailored to the needs of that schools community. So, and this, the needs are very different according to each school the needs are different by each country. Paul said that there is a need to create content right like a repository of content, but the content to has to be tailored to the unique needs of, of every beneficiary country. So, which means like in the case of Malaysia, the study that we did it points to a deeper situation analysis needs to be done with the support of the Ministry of Education so that together, we can develop unique pathways that suit this country that will create meaningful impact and I think as learners this is what would have the best outcome in my opinion. So what am I doing. But I think the best way to summarize this is like I'm on succumbent, obviously with STSN from UCD for five years and I guess the job interview kind of goes a bit like this, you know. So, Jeff gets me for two minutes right so okay Paul, every university in the world has to have STG courses and STG education. Okay, good. Then the resource rich universities have to level the standard and build capacity and all the universities that we all teach at the same level. And we're all doing the same thing on same about education and then the last thing, this has to be disseminated into governments the private sector. And also we have this great new project the global school so we'll do that as well. So, I give you a tip when somebody's interviewing you for a job and say can you do that what do you say. Yes, no problem. But then I went back into, you know, you know, looking at the ceiling and kind of went, Okay, what am I going to do right. So, I've done three things, right. First, Tom Gloria, who was teaching in the Harvard Extension School, and he teaches the global classroom on the MDP. He was always going on about how brilliant Harvard Extension School is and the whole back office and training is you know in terms of doing extension learning right. So I said, Okay, I'm going to learn this technology. So, he's on sabbatical. So I replaced him for a couple of years in the Harvard Extension School with the promise that I'd be trained on web conferencing on LMS and all sorts of applications. So I've done that. And I've learned a lot. There actually is something in all of this. And your guys are going to be tortured with this. Then I went to the librarians, right, because I said, Okay, how do we disseminate work. How do we catalog how do we translate we purpose how do we do this. The librarians say we have those technologies for years. It's called D space. They're called repositories and the UN library says we've got a library in every country. So all you got to do is collab your LMS is into scrum put on the whole metadata to put the license that on the hocus pocus the whole thing can be distributed. So I'm learning that. But then I got afraid of intellectual property because people are, you know, academics and everyone are afraid. So, then I talked to create a commons and I'm learning a lot about remix licenses and some doing legal stuff right, but it's all coming together. And hopefully before the break, when I have my chance, you know, my quarterly with Jeff, I'll say, Well, here's the plan. This is how we're going to do it. And I'm really going to embrace technology and embrace this network because this is this is the way we're going to do it. Okay. So, so yeah, the, you have to be a lifelong learner if you want to solve the problems the big problems that you told Jeff you're going to solve and now I'm feeling very scared I'm going to be very busy in the future. So I know we are out of time. I want to thank our panelists and thank our audience. Thank you so much for for listening to us, and we'll move on to the next segment. Ladies and gentlemen, we are at our final panel session. So, stay safe in your seats if you would like to quick bathroom break. Now is the time. Now is the time to take a bathroom break. As we proceed to the next session. Yeah, but I think for the size panel. Somebody online. Yeah, yeah, that's a guy. Is everybody. Other than. Thanks. Thank you. We have three more. 100. Attention to the panelists who will be joining to what on stage could you come to the front of the stage please. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, if I could kindly get you to get to your seats please. We are starting right now. All right, ladies and gentlemen, if you could kindly take your seats. Apologies for the delay. For the final panel session for today will be moderated by Professor watching what on the science panel for Southeast Asian forests. The panelists will be sharing some perspectives and recommendations for the way forward in several aspects of science and some experiences from the viewpoints of the science panel of the Amazon. Heart of Borneo and other forest ecosystems and relationship of energy and forestry. We will also have another panelist joining us online. Over to you. Good evening. Hola. This panel is to discuss about the science panel for Southeast Asia. We are emulating the success in the Amazon. So we will have our first panelist. From Oxford, speaking to us from Oxford, sharing with us their experience, how the science panel works for Amazon. And he will take 15 minutes. After that, we move our discussions to Borneo. Southeast Asia is definitely wider than Borneo, but today we can only cover Borneo. So we have here our distinguished panelists. Allow me to get the details correct. After Paolo, we have Professor Muhammad, Henry Iman Shah, from the Faculty of Economics and Business, Lombong Mankurat University in the city of Banja Masin in Kalimantan. And he will talk to us on potential loss of forest due to mining exploitation. Next, we will have Dr. Angsoka Yorinta, Pondra Linga, who is an economist at the Central Bank of Indonesia and co-founder at Beneran Indonesia. And he will talk to us about the challenges to protect the rainforest of Kalimantan. Then we have Prof. Maslin Mokhtar, the Deputy Head for Academic at the SDSN Asia Headquarters, who has spent eight years of his younger days in Sabah, part of the Borneo. And last but not least, we will have Professor Jagna Supriana, the chair of our UN SDSN Indonesian Network, who is a leader in conservation of biodiversity. So without further ado, I would like to invite Paolo to speak to us. Paolo is the Stakeholder Engagement Officer at the Science Panel for the Amazon, and he is currently a Doctoral Candidate at the University of Oxford. Thank you so much for joining us. Over to you. Good afternoon. Good evening. Selamat betang. Thank you so much for having me. Can you hear me? Okay. So I'll share my screen. First of all, I want to thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be with you. And unfortunately, I'm not in person, but I'm very honored to be with you. And I also want to thank the panelists that in our group kindly, I would like to thank the panelists. And I also want to thank the panelists that in our group kindly spoke in English, even though, even amongst themselves. So that was very kind of you. I do appreciate that. Thank you so much. I also want to congratulate you all on the SDSN. Just a moment. Can we sort out the delay? It seems to be overlapping. There seems to be a big delay, right? I'm so sorry, Paolo. No, don't be sorry. I'm sorry about the delay. I'm sorry for not being in person with you. I will share my screen and we'll try to go forward. If you have any problems hearing me, please let me know either through the Zoom call or through WhatsApp. And we'll try to sort it out. So let me share my screen. Can you see the first slides? I hope you can see the first slides. Let me know if you cannot, please. Yes. I've prepared a roadmap for us for what I want to talk to you. I'll first say some words about the Science Panel for the Amazon and its first report. And then I'll carry on. The goal is to speak about the Science Panel. Thank you. Thank you for letting me know that you can see clearly the slides. I will speak about the Science Panel for the Amazon. But for that, I want to speak within the context of the Amazon because the structure of the Science Panel is necessarily linked, goes hand in hand with the Amazon and its context. So you will see that I will go, I will speak a little bit about the Amazon, then about its current state and lastly about recommendations. And you will see on the roadmap that these are parts one, two and three of the first reports that the Science Panel produced. So the first report was it came to be as a result of a concern in the scientific community about the state of the Amazon. And Professor Jeffrey Sachs called some fellow scholars to to form the panel. And they started inviting others and eventually the panel grew and became this massive group of scholars from various countries, collaborating, sharing research, finding the cohesive gathering of this research to make it to make a repository of scientific robust scientific information about the Amazon. And to translate this in a way that it becomes friendly to stakeholders that don't have time to go into detail of the scientific information about the region. But that can decision makers that can use this information. So the Science Panel, in essence, evaluates research, gathers research, compiles it in a cohesive manner and makes it friendly to the user community. Decision makers both in public sphere and in private sphere. To start explaining a bit more of this, I will go through the, I want to speak a little bit about the Amazon itself, which is the first part of the report. You're probably seeing on your screen two maps, one the political map and the physical map of the region. Brazil is the country that is highlighted here. I hope you can see my cursor on the screen. I'm showing this darker green area, which is the Amazon and part of it is also this yellow area. This information I want you to bear in mind, because the yellow parts that you see in the south and southeastern parts of the Amazon are productive areas. So these are areas dedicated to agriculture and ranching. And although Brazil has the largest part of the Amazon, it shares the Amazon with seven other countries. And with an international territory, the French QAnon to the north. That indicates the nature of what the science panel needs to do when it translates both when it compiles scientific information and organizes it, and when it makes it friendly to stakeholders. So compiling information is only relevant if we are accounting for the whole Pan-Amazonian context. So the other countries also within the basin. For that sake, it's very important that the panel is diverse. So we have scientists from all these countries and from other countries as well. We cooperate with them. They bring science that has been developed within the context of their countries. And we've formed a cohesive whole by gathering all this. So diversity is very important. As you will see later in the presentation, there are many indigenous peoples and local traditional communities that have been for a long time in the region developing knowledge on their own. They are also on board because their knowledge is fundamental for us to have the most robust compilation of knowledge that can help conservation and sustainable development of the region. A bit more on this. If we move now to the left, looking at the physical map, you will see in the satellite's photo, you will see the larger area, the green part here, which is the Amazon shared by all these countries. And you will note that it goes to this range of mountains, the Andes. That's where many of the rivers that form the region and the Amazon River itself are born. So it's an important part of the science for the region to understand that this is an entire ecosystem, and all completely interconnected and all its parts play a role in making the region function as a whole ecosystem. The autitudinal connectivity is so important that it's very diverse. The diversity varies depending on lowlands where most of the species are and highlands. But without the highlands, the lowlands wouldn't exist and function as they are. So we need science that also brings the relationship between these ecosystems that collaborate to form the whole of the Amazon basin. So some information from part one of the report shows us that, well, the Amazon is so massive that it's the largest river in the world. If you look at the volume of water being discharged per time to the Atlantic Ocean after all the water is collected and processed in the basin, it's more than all the European rivers combined. It would be the equivalent of roughly 250,000 Olympic swimming pools per second. It's massive. And importantly, the moist that evaporates from the Amazon creates rain in other regions of the country. If we move back to this slide, you will see that the most productive agricultural areas in the country in the southeast receive rain that is created in the Amazon. So without the Amazon, the economy of Brazil would collapse in the sense that the agricultural sector wouldn't function as well as it does. In terms of human occupation, it started a long time ago, roughly 12,000 years ago at least. It's home to almost 50 million people, 410 groups of indigenous communities and local traditional communities. Some of those live in complete isolation. There are around 300 languages spoken in the region. And so all of this implies the immense repository of knowledge that indigenous peoples and local communities have. And so the science panel has been designed to bring this on board so that we have the most comprehensive science possible to conserve the Amazon region. Now, moving on to current states, which is what motivated the creation of the science panel. Approximately to almost 20% of the basin has been converted to other land uses. And then an important part of the area has also been degraded. So in terms of degradation, we mean extraction of trees without completely clearing the lands, mostly for timber. And you can see in the maps here what I mean by this. So in your left-hand side, you will see that we have deforestation in the south and southeast regions of the Amazon. And on your right-hand side, you see degradation that is also happening in the same area, in the same region. And there's a reason for that. The reason is that that's where human activity is moving into the forest mostly. So when we look at, if we go back to the map, looking more closely to the region now, you'll see what's been happening over time. On your left-hand side, 1985, that's what we had as productive human occupation in the Amazon in the south and southeast and eastern parts of it. And if you look at last year, 2021, you see that it has increased a lot. So that's where the science panel, when the science panel needs to translate scientific research, robust information on how to create sustainable development in the region. For the sake of practitioners, it has to take into account that there is economic development here and the private initiative has to be on board as well. So today, the Amazon is about 1.2 degrees Celsius warmer than what it used to be, which is higher than the global average. And the dry season has increased in the last 40 years. How long is it going to go a bit faster? Yes, yes. That's pushing the Amazon towards a tipping point. And the tipping point will, if we go beyond the tipping point, there is no recovery. And Professor Norbury has studied this and there are a couple of situations in which we can pass the tipping point and won't be able to recover the Amazon. Such as the last bullet here, if we have 20 to 25% deforestation, plus an important warming of the planets, we move past the tipping point. Bearing mind, we are at around close to 20%. The Amazon is being degraded also by mining and by fires. And so the Amazon, the science panel was born. What is the science panel? It has over 240 scientists cooperating, two thirds of whom from Amazon countries, 40% women, many indigenous scientists bringing indigenous knowledge and the indigenous leaders involved as well. Importantly, we don't, the science panel in itself doesn't produce knowledge, but it compiles knowledge. So all those researchers that voluntarily donate their time and knowledge to the panel help organize this knowledge. We've had more than 70 peer reviewers reviewing chapters by other researchers. And importantly, we engage with scientific, with the practitioners community, both in the private sphere and the public sphere to make this useful for them. But there are knowledge gaps and this is, this is an important point. You see that on your left-hand side on the top, the world on average invests 2.6% of GDP in research and development. And on your right-hand side, you see that Brazil, the blue line, invests less than half of that and other Amazon countries even lower than this. Which means that we have a lot of knowledge gaps and we need more research. We have good knowledge about birds, reasonably good about trees, but because knowledge is mostly centered around roads and rivers that create easy access to the forests, we have a poor distribution of knowledge. And particularly, we need to understand more about biodiversity and how it affects the systemic behavior of the whole ecosystem. Also, very importantly, we need to understand more about economic valuation of ecosystem services to see what the real impact of losing that ecosystem would be and channel more money into conserving it. The report then, the third part of it, moves to recommendations. And that's where it's very important to translate all these findings into friendly language to decision makers. We are advocating for a moratorium on deforestation of the south and eastern regions of the Amazon, which is where the tipping point is approaching. And zero deforestation by 2030. There are many challenges for all this. We can talk about this during Q&A if you want. We are also advocating for the creation of an arch of restoration, the south and in the eastern south and south eastern and in the western part of the region. The south to avoid the tipping points in the western parts to preserve the rivers and the connection of biodiversity in high altitude and low altitude. All of this provides for enormous potential for bioeconomic development and we engage with stakeholders to spread the word and invite them to participate, particularly the financial sector and the public sector. And importantly also, we need alliances and in the public sphere and the private sphere because this knowledge is only useful if it is useful for those practitioners. And we can talk about this during Q&A if you like, but we are doing both in a Pan-Amazonian level and inside Brazil an effort to engage the public sphere and with the private sphere in different forums as well. But lastly, I want to finish by talking about something that is emerging in front of our eyes, which is what we could call the tropical belt nexus. We need to engage, we need to create science in the same way, organize it, compile it for the tropical belt as you're doing now, as we've been doing for the Amazon, as might happen also in the Congo basin. So it's, we're very keen to be in touch with you and to evolve this scientific mindset of bridging the gap between science and practitioners in public and private spheres to the whole world. And this is it. Thank you so much for having me. I will say terima kasih banyak in honor of all those who honored me by speaking English when I couldn't understand your language. Thank you. Yes, thank you so much for having me. I don't know say terima kasih banyak. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for sharing from Oxford. Now we would have Professor Hendry to share with us on Kalimantan. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing from Oxford. Now we would have Professor Hendry. Thank you Professor Chauhat for the time being. Let me discuss with you, because I just give some ideas about the potential loss of forest due to the mining exploitation in especially in Kalimantan or Borneo. Next, this more than a half of all tropical deforestation that is attributed to the industrial mining that takes place in Indonesia. So that's according to the new research by Clark University and Wayne University of Economics and Business. Most of the tropical forest in 26 countries found that in Indonesia accounted for more than 50% of deforestation caused by mineral exploitation. So this is, I mean, in the next near future, the exploitation will be massive because of the, I heard from the rumors in government, local government that they want to exploit the mulattus mountains. You can see that during the 20 years that a lot of green become yellow. So from 2000 is still a good one. I mean green is everywhere with some is yellow, but 2020 most of the Indonesian side that's yellow. But in the Malaysian side that's Saba and Sarawak, some is still green in the east of Kalimantan, some still green. But we don't know yet in the next few years later on. Next please. I want to give some an idea about in South Kalimantan, the land use. You can see that the mining permit for the mining is 30% of the land. So this is the potential deforestation in the future. And the palm oil is only 17% and most of the farm oil is using the degradation land so that most of them don't use primary forest. So they use secondary forest or degradation land. So we have to worry about the mining exploitation rather than palm oil. So the number of secondary forest is only 16% and the primary forest is still only 2%. So it's a very scarcity, I mean because only 2% left for the primary forest. Next please. The last one. Okay the Maratus Mountains will be exploited for mining. That's the question. Because we know that Maratus Mountains in the middle of the Borneo or Kalimantan is a catchment area. What the saffron from is not only South Kalimantan but for the Central Kalimantan and also for the East Kalimantan. And we know that Maratus Mountains has many mineral deposits besides coal. Especially the coal is the mine mineral but there are many others like ore. So based on this condition I think that the potential to be exploited in the near future. So can research solve and save the Maratus Mountains from the exploitation in the near future. That's the big question for us to be discussed. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much Professor Hamdri. Next we move to another economist from the Central Bank of Indonesia, Dr. Ang Sokka. Thank you so much. Good evening everybody. My name is Ang Sokka. I'm based on Banjar Masin so I'm responsible for many economics issues in the Kalimantan. Especially because you are going to make Nusantara that will be our new capital. And we will hope that it will become a green capital. And I will start my comment with a story. Right now I'm trying to be as green as possible. So I'm trying to follow Mr. Jeffrey Chah's suggestion to use the trailway. But I don't think that using or wearing a suites and ties is very suitable for the weather. So I'm trying to use this as a body from Kalimantan. And then the motive is about the green. So I'm trying that it is very unpractical actually. But I know that if we have a good motive but it's not practical enough then we cannot see a better future in the next 5 or 10 years. So I will start my story with Kayu Ulin. Kayu Ulin is very specific to Kalimantan. Next please. Kayu Ulin, we call it Kayu Besi or Iron Wood. That is a very specific wood in Kalimantan. That is very... If they touched water then it becomes stronger. And then... Slide please. Next. Sorry. Yeah, it was in the group. Maybe the name is... I'll send it then. Sorry, let me continue my story. Because in my presentation I will explain the trade route from the timber from the Kayu Ulin to go to everywhere. So usually from forestry in Kalimantan. Kalimantan is very specific because in Japanese Kalim means river. So it has a big river. While Sulawesi Besi means steely, iron. So while Kalimantan has a big river, it's also a big forest. So it's very easy for them to transport the timber. And usually we use the Plabuantikos, a red timber. So we just, for example, we can try to decrease the number of exporting. For example, through Kalimantan, through Malaysia and Singapore. If we have a cooperation and collaboration that, for example, if Singapore didn't receive our timber, then maybe it is possible that we can decrease the illegal mining also. This is the Ulin, or usually the rock slur and swaggery. So it is very specific only to Burneo and also to Philippines. Next, please. Next. So this is, we use the Plabuantikos, the red timber from Burneo. And sometimes from Pontiana we also make an illegal locking to Kuching. And then after that they will go everywhere. Because we use that specific timber to be a part of the boot. So in short term, maybe if we can have a deal with the Singaporean or in Malaysian harbour, if they give the same statistics. Because sometimes we know that the statistic from Singapore is different from, it seems that what we are exporting is not what they are importing. The number is very different. So if we have a commitment to do the same statistics, maybe we can decrease the amount of deforestation. Next, please. So from this to go to everywhere. And then next, please. I use the same powerful diagram with Professor Hendry. And then it uses the data from 1950 to 2005. And then it shows us that the speed of deforestation is very, very, very high. So this is our plea to the world that, unless we can make a good policy, then we will lose maybe 70% of our forest in Kalimantan. Next. So let me show you the economic structure of Kalimantan. The coal industry, the coal mining comprised for the contribution is 32%. And then the palm oil contribution is 1703%. So it will be around 40% until 50% of Kalimantan's economics comes from coal and palm oil. So it comes from the deforestation alone. So if we are going to stop deforestation, we also have to think that we are going to kill at least one third until 50% of the economics of Kalimantan. So we have to think something. Next, please. So this is the contribution of coal mining. This is very positive. And then every time we go down, then the coal mining is our helper, our superman here into Kalimantan. So we also have to think a just transition mechanism to help them. And then for the next place. So this is the economic contribution also for palm oil to the economy of Kalimantan. It is around 20% until 25%. And then palm oil is also very, very unique. I mean, if we are going to create a green economy, then it will be our future of fuel. So if we push on that way, then we are going to try to extract more of the palm oil. Unless we have something, a good policy, unless we have, because there is no deforestation in the equation for the Kalimantan. Unless we have a green definition, a green measure, green GDP, so that we can also calculate the deforestation into the equation for the government and the private sector, then we can see a bigger change. And we also think something like to change the mindset of the youth, because we know that the worker comes from Java. And then, otherwise, we cannot, we cannot make any progress in that area. Thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Ansoka. Next, we'll have our own Dr. Maslin. Thank you, Jinwai. Professor's speakers. Ladies and gentlemen, Salam alaikum. Salam alaikum, good evening. Can you share one or two slides that I've chosen anyway. Coming to Malaysia, we learned a lot from the Amazon just now. And we were inspired. Okay, in Malaysia, when we spoke to the Katzah Ministry of Energy and Natural Resources, they are the coordinating agency now. There are two projects in Malaysia. There are two good projects which are ongoing now. One is the CFS. So if you have a phone, you go to Google CFS, you will get chronic fatigue syndrome. So you must type in full, central for a spine, then you will get this. The central for a spine is about 5.3 million hectares, 80% permanent reserve forest. And inside this forest, Malaysian tiger only numbering 200. Maybe at the moment 198% or something. If you go poaching is the problem. But anyway, this project had been ongoing for several years now. Thank you to funding from GEF, UNDP, and coordinated by Forestry Department, Peninsula Malaysia and Department of Wildlife and FRIM. The keyword I see is about improving connectivity. So they were looking at the forest complexes numbering 1234. One is Banjaran Titiwangsa. Two is Gunung Tahan. Three is Chini and Burra Wetlands. Four is Andau Rompin and Keluang Wildlife Reserve. So they want to maintain the connectivity. Otherwise the tiger also don't know how to cross the highway and all that because road kills even are quite high. But anyway, that is our spirit in the Peninsula Malaysia. So people are excited. We don't know. We really hope that a lot of challenges and hopefully these will get into the discussion and into the decision of the voters tomorrow. Insha Allah. Our next one is the bigger project. We go to Borneo. We try to look at reports. The beauty of going to Borneo is in the year 2007. 15 years ago, 12 February 2007, three governments signed the Heart of Borneo Declaration. Brunei, Indonesia and Malaysia. We remember the minister from Malaysia, Datuk Sri Azmi Khalid. He married the most beautiful wife. That's why you remember. But never mind. 15 years ago. So we thought if we look at Amazon learning and listening to Jeff Sanks. And if I imagine and have a little bit of foresight into the future, this is where we need to look at the whole globe on the bigger picture. And we listened from Jeff Sanks that the elected president of Brazil, Lula, coming in and a few days ago last week. He announced that he's going to form the OPEC equivalent of forestry country for country with good forest. So BIC big Brazil, Indonesia, Congo. So maybe plus the plus plus can be Malaysia. And when we look at the bigger ecosystems, not only the Amazon, of course the biggest as described by Paolo just now. Then Indonesia, you have big forest ecosystem as well, which will include the Heart of Borneo, which I think is about top 20 in the world. Other forests would include Peru and all that the seven neighboring country that Paolo mentioned. But anyway, in Malaysia, when it comes to Heart of Borneo, initially when the project kick off, WWF was the sort of coordinating agency and WWF Malaysia and WWF Indonesia. And getting the support, not only from NGO, but governments, academia, researcher, and also community. But after a few years, now it's handed over to government. And in Malaysia case, Sabah Forestry Department will manage Sabah Heart of Borneo, Sarawak, Sarawak Heart of Borneo, Sarawak Forestry Department. So please Google all this, you can try to look at what are the available reports in Sabah in Sarawak. I tried to find, is there an integrated report, the answer is yes, the latest is 2016 WWF. And this is where I got the diagram from, the figures from WWF Heart of Borneo report 2016. And then I was asking WWF, it was prepared by WWF Malaysia and Indonesia, very good. With the cooperation of government agencies of the three countries as well. I was asking, is there a latest report? The answer is yes, it's going to publish soon, but at least for the Sabah Forestry Department, they produce a good report. We pray that soon it's going to be shared with the public. This is where we are very encouraged. Look at Sabah Forestry Department, now they are taking the leadership in Sabah. In Sabah alone at the moment, they have about 40 million hectares of forest, 26% are totally protected area. And they are targeting 30% protected area by 2025, three years from now. So do they have their aspiration? The answer is yes, which is good. And when we discuss with some of the Sabah Forestry Department officer, and they sort of show me the sneak preview into the report that they're going to share. Very good, very systematic. They look not only at what are the districts involved, you can change this slide now. You look, even the 2016 report, they have very beautiful GIS based report based on remote sensing or that about 20 or 30 figures of all combination about forests, about fauna, the wild animal, where are the dispersion of the cloud leopard, the orangutan, the elephant, very fantastic. Good science are getting into decision making and look at how they assess into a matrix, color coded and all that. So it seems that government is okay, they want to manage, they want to know. But of course in the Sabah report, there's one term which is quite exciting and quite innovative. They use the term, Jurisditional Approach to Management. That means because in the Malaysian context, natural resources are under the purview of the state government. Federal may say, yeah, this is the blueprint, the roadmap, but if states say, hey, we need to find income for the state. So this is good that Dr. Ansoka, you are the banker, and if I'm the chief minister, I will approach you. And I was also happy to hear from Professor Leong Yan-Yung's group prior, they were talking about the carbon market. Already in Sabah, they come up with some sort of a carbon market, and Srawa also excited. So we thought of how we can try to balance all this. That means monetization of forests. This is very important to states. And then the term of EFT, the fiscal transfer. What was the ecology, ecological fiscal transfer? That means federal government allocate now about 100 million ringgit. They will try to give to states, states that are willing to conserve forests for the benefit of the whole of the country. But whether this is efficient or not, I think a good opportunity for our research in the future. Whether 100 million ringgit is enough or not. Because we also start listening to some chief minister saying, hey, I need to safeguard this forest. You next door state, the water comes from this forest, you should also pay me. And you must buy water at a higher rate. All these debates come into the picture. So exciting times. So I suppose all this also will get into the heads of the voters tomorrow. Anyway, any other slides? Yeah, one minute. Okay, just to show to you how signs, good signs are already getting into this. But the thing is, Malaysia also good news. 6 September, Prime Minister Malaysia, Ismail Sabri declare Malaysia is going to have the my SDG center under economic planning unit, which is very good. But how to ensure good things which are planned at federal national level gets to the state and then get to the district officer and local government. So that's a golden opportunity for all of us here. Thank you then. Thank you. Thank you. Next, we have Professor Jadna Spriadna, who is the chair of the UN SDSN Indonesian Network. Over to you, sir. Thank you very much. So, thank you for my mostly. Anyway, so, okay, and boundary. So I just want to a little bit. A bright side, not the very loom side of this Borneo things. I've been studying the Borneo since 75. So at last long time ago. But, you know, back and forth to see Borneo. I see that light in the tunnel after long times is deforestation and so on and so on. 2016, the Indonesian government, especially the President Joko Widodo, come up with the moratorium of the conversion of the natural forest. Sindhan used to be Indonesian has like 2% deforestation and Sindhan is very going down very rapidly. I think not only because of that, but also because of not so much forest life. That's right. Good thing. The good thing, you know, when you see that all the oldest conservation is always. Oh, wow, that's really good. But then of course, the forest life is very, very thin. But what that really means that Indonesian commitment. Because also, as I mentioned that recently, I'm helping the, the call the law on the or carbon trading, which is that they call the an ek, national economic on forestry. So then in desert trading, in the carbon trading, that's just going to be very important that not only for full, fulfill the NBC, but also for the private sector to get this carbon trading. What is it also means that, you know, the old concession out of 150 concession, forest concession, they change into what we call the restoration ecosystem. So the concession changes not taking the forest, but they're trying to sell the carbon. So within two years after that, now is in fact last month, last two months, the law is passed in Indonesia. Then everybody is jogging, you know, and trying to get this forest carbon. It's really good things, which mean that, you know, in the future, maybe not only, you know, talking about all these bad things. Maybe it's going to be everybody is going to restore. Because the pitland, you know, in Borneo, out of 40 million hectares of the forest. In as per Indian region Borneo, 40 million is about 16 million hectares, it's a pitland. One hectare of pitlands, about 1000 ton of carbon. So you can imagine billion dollars that coming. This is economic, I said, I'm not economic. So I thought that's going to be changes the business in Kalimantan. Not the call will not be so much money compared to the carbon. If that's really true, the carbon price is going up. Now it's about $10 per ton. So you can imagine that this. So the opportunity for like Amazon is it so that we can connect that the revive again the heart of Borneo, right? Because everybody is going to receive going to save the whole forest plus the pitland. So I'm just saying that in the future, the business changes. The innovation has to be there to make sure that also not only mining and and oil palm and many others. They always because my three years publication, we always say, well, you know, infrastructure in Borneo, they're going to have this going to that, you know. And I calculated that going to be lost how many hectares and so on and so on. So when I, when we were there with the Minister of Forestry, Environment and Forestry last week in Bali. She said that going to be really committed between Amazon Indonesia and Konga Basin. That's going to be really opportunity for us in Borneo. I'm sure that we can revive again the heart of Borneo, maybe more than heart of Borneo, maybe extended to the whole ecosystem for the cardboard. That's going to be, I think there's DSN, especially we move as economists, I think prof can be really take the opportunity. I think this is really good for us in Southeast Asia. I think that means not only Indonesia because now Indonesia has about 70 to 80 million hectares of the forest, but also to Malaysia and plus to Cambodia. To many other in Southeast Asia. So that really might do same. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Professor. Now we have about 10 minutes now for the discussions. Now this panel is to discuss about the science panel for Southeast Asia, emulating the success of the science panel for the Amazon. So I'd like to invite questions or comments back on this, and it doesn't have to be stopped with Borneo. Yes, Anthony. Anthony is one of our alumni from Sunway Master Programs in Sustainable Development Management. Yes. Good evening. Thank you for your presentations. I would like to say I'm from the secretary of the All Party Parliamentary Group Malaysia on Sustainable Development Goals. I would like to, but I can't because parliament doesn't is not sitting as yet. So we will only know tomorrow who the new MPs are coming into the committee. Now I just like to touch a bit on carbon trading. COP 27 in Egypt is coming to a conclusion the annual circus I call this a circus. This year we had what 35,000 people flying in and out to save the planet, which is quite strange. They are trying to cut down on carbon emissions, but they're flying in and out. The annual circus is waiting to reassemble next year in UAE. The clean development mechanism and going back a little bit in time of the Kyoto Protocol was supposed to be the basis of carbon trading. At one time, one CER was going as high as 50 US dollars. Today the same CER is going for less than 50 cents. In Malaysia the ecological fiscal transfer is what Prok Maslin mentioned involves federal and state governments. There is no mechanism to get this funds to the grassroots and to the indigenous people. And this I believe is a very, very difficult situation. The forest conservation funding, the REDD plus have the potential of creating funding for billions of dollars for both Indonesia and Malaysia. Now pre-COVID-19, the EU was all out to make it impossible for Malaysian and Indonesian palm oil from being imported into the EU. That was barely two, three years ago. Today after the Ukraine invasion of Russia, suddenly RSPO certified palm oil has become acceptable to the EU because the cause of gas has shut up. So my question is now, how are we going to find this balance of maintaining our forests? For one perspective, palm oil is bad, so therefore don't cultivate more area of palm oil in phishing into the natural forest. But on the other hand, now EU is saying that palm oil is okay for nations that no longer have forests. It's quite easy for them to say that. Thank you. So what are your comments? Thanks. I would like to invite a few more questions so that then our panelists including Paolo can respond to them. Anything specifically about what we can do for the science panel for Southeast Asia? As we say, it's need not to be limited to Borneo, what about Philippines, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam and so on. The only country that probably would not have anything to say other than contributing scientists in Singapore. Anyone? Any other questions? Profo, thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Okay, we have a question. Hi, my name is Shaktil. I work with the British High Commission. I'm part of the UK FAC program. FAC stands for partnering for accelerated climate transition. So my question is specifically for Prof. And it's on EFT. So at the moment we're talking about essentially federal government compensating state governments to preserve natural resources and biodiversity. And the reason we need such a mechanism is because state governments get revenue from land and natural resource. So I'm wondering if you have any comments about whether you see this changing in the new future where state governments do not obtain revenue from land and natural resource. Thank you. So I'll go to Prof. Marceline first and then after that, Prof. Profs and so very difficult question to answer. We should post that to the incoming members of parliament. But anyway, I would like to bring us all to imagine that there will come a stage if the whole world now under for the reasons of global warming, we get our act together. Even though it's a bit slow business as usual still, but the calling by IPCC is, hey, the whole world is one village. All everybody must behave. Advanced country must give some money for developing country. So if we bring it down to our country. Same like that about time now Malaysia looks at not only state by state according to the political boundary like Paulio showed just now, but look at ecological systems. So economic systems and ecological systems I always talk to Prof. You all must speak first to our Minister, Chief Minister, Premier, before environmentally speak. Many years we had been segregated. We look at environment as totally separate from economic. Who showed the diagram just now in the earlier section when there's economic downturn, economic recovery, everybody including the dog also go to the economic recovery environment they don't care. But now is the time how to harmonize the economic system and the environmental system so back to Malaysia. We must look at this for us is to supply water to states 123 ABC, then we must figure out a model. We should compensate the state that has the forest. That is the idea that Prof mentioned just now. How to find that formula. What is the right price? Who has the answer? We have the answer. It's not the politician and all that. So that is going to take a long process. But like Anthony says, when certain European Union they are under stress for the energy then they say I mean for food and all that they say palm oil is okay. So this has been mind boggling for all of us for many years, the economic systems of the world. And sometimes we wonder how that certain country is borrowing money, but yet the value of the currency goes up and suddenly our currency go down. So that one is really mind boggling. And there is one big talk or so one brilliant Harvard graduate. She came from the Africa continent. She was asking my country in Africa has everything natural resources. You took them out, you bring to your advanced country. But how come my country remain poor? So I cannot answer. She also could not find the answer, even though after studying at Harvard. So Tony, I don't know where we can find the answer. But that's it. We must try to discuss this over and over again. I suppose the heart and the mind must be sincere in this modern system. The whole global, the whole world is one village we bring down. So let's be sincere. So let's choose our sincere leaders tomorrow. Well, this is campaigning speech, but I'm not sure whether other than Putin, who can answer your questions, Anthony, but I would like to get Professor Jadna. Yeah, your last word. Oh, yes, quick. Yeah, we can hear you. Thank you. More. According to the nation and communities, right? Right now, landfill is purely taking over, taking space in the forest, right? Eating the forest space. So how, how, how you guys see on this landfill in the, in terms of carbon. So we exchange the landfill to something that can be more communicable. Thanks. Okay, so maybe we go with Prof Jadna first. Thank you. I want to respond to part Tony, is that part Tony. Okay. I think this is really a good question that we always bugging our mind that that's really our studies, especially in the pitland and also in the palm oil. This is really the important because most of the forest fire and most of the European. They all came to RED in European, which is the renewable. You know, all these things why we are Malaysia Indonesia has been difficult trading with Europe on a European European as per the NCPO. This is part of that discussion in Indonesia. And, you know, to be honest, that, you know, in palm oil, there has been such as an advantage in this our condition. But the only thing that only in the pitland is very difficult. And science can be really play roles, you know. So recently, there is a research that been done by our university and also University of Singapore, National Institute of Singapore. We found that microbes that can, you know, converted the whole the pit into the others so that they making and not making the forest fires. So means that instead of rewetting and all these programs and science is not really work with the new technology asking for bacteria to convert it that it's really good. So next time, I think maybe the oil palm plantation will be, you know, not so much criticism again because of that new science coming and that helps a lot on that. So the balancing of the development and environment should be based on science. So what science can help, it's important, not only just physical or environmental but also science can play a role. The second to Professor Wing, I think the maritime Southeast Asia is a very important. Especially how we have developing what they call the peace park in Timor-Leste and Indonesia. I think that's going to be funded by GF and how that really between those two countries now used to be one countries now becoming two countries again and trying to be a more reasonable thinking of the ecosystem services. So with that becoming peace park, I think the other one is between Indonesia and PNG. There's a national park, both of that, and now they're trying to get to becoming a peace park. With the mean that, you know, not only Minister of Environment but also Minister of Foreign Affairs and many others. There will be, I don't know whether that maybe Heart of Borneo is good becoming a peace park, you know. Or maybe with additional other marine in between Indonesia and Malaysia and many others. That peace park is a very, for government, it seems to me very palatable, you know. One system, two countries. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Prop 100. Okay. Dr. Ansuka, one minute. Let me just adding some comment here. So from the from the Indonesian side, I think we will, we'll still do the moratorium. So he will never give the big company to be, I mean, to give the permission to to expand to convert their land. And for the smaller farmers, I think they can still doing their palm oil business. So what we really need right now is a kind of like a better measurement, a better GDP, a green GDP measurement, so that we can take into account all of that deforestation, all of that negative impact into that. We can never push the government, the local government in Kalimantan because they enjoy the coal mining, they enjoy the, all of the deforestation, unless we give them a better measurement that it kills themselves in the long run, then we can see a better policy. Thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Ansuka. Now coming to you, Pablo. Thank you. We'd like to have a word of advice from your experience in the science panel for the Amazon. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you can hear me. I'll be very brief. Science conservation for what you all mentioned, it's very similar to us in the sense that science for conservation and sustainable development has to be useful and understandable by practitioners. So it's important that you gather the best science possible. That's what we've been trying to do and produce policy briefs that are easy to read and quick to read so that practitioners can make use of them. But that in itself is not enough. We have to engage with them to make sure that they really understood the message. And when it comes to implementing all those scientific recommendations and findings, that they are helped because, as you said, there's no solution for some of, we don't know the solutions for some of the implementations that we need to make. Economic questions are difficult. And so we need to do it together with all those stakeholders in the public sphere and in the private sphere. The financial sector is very important. And also when you form the panel, bear in mind diversity of regions of political situations of backgrounds and of disciplines. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I would like to invite we have had a very interesting time. Unfortunately, that got interrupted by some technical difficulties. Otherwise he cannot sleep tonight. Yes, you are going to ask about ways. How do we look at ways right, and you are towards encouraging ways as a resource as an income. In fact, coming to palm oil, and we work with bright researchers from university already signed up be and big companies are sponsoring palm oil industry should be zero emission, zero to water zero. If possible, close the loop. So brings to circular economy. So we should work very hard. And the banker wants a green GDP. But which one comes first, you give money first or egg and chicken situation. Economist like Prof. Who and Prof. Jeffrey Sykes must help us. Anyway, Selamat mengundi. Thank you. Thank you. Now we have had interesting time I would like to invite you all to join me to give a round of applause to Paulo from Oxford. Prof. Henry, Dr. Ansuka from muslin and project now. Thank you so much. Apologies for all the technical hiccups just now, and I pass it back to happy. Thank you, Jen what for the final panel session so ladies and gentlemen we have come to the end of all the three sessions for this evening. We have also come to the end of what has been an amazing past two days on the auspicious launch of the SS and Asia headquarters. A quick reminder to all the agft members. There will be a working dinner meeting at 6pm right now at on level level 12, and also a reminder to all Malaysians tomorrow to kindly exercise your civic duty and vote. Thank you everyone. Thank you for your time. Take care and stay safe.