 Hi, in today's episode, we explore an example of gentrification of a deindustrialized area in the UK. Rossamund Liliwest, from Kingston University in the UK, explored how Poplar in London was reimagined, envisioned by the London County Council from the end of the Second World War until today. I'm Rodrig Silva. Let's talk about urban planning. Hi Rossamund, welcome to our episode. Hello, thank you for having me. So the first question for you would be, why is this topic important to be discussed? Well, I think it's important because like a lot of areas in London, particularly a lot of the sort of ex-industrial areas, Poplar is an area that is changing really rapidly at the moment and communities are really shifting and buildings are coming up, coming down and the heritage is really being explored and exploited in a lot of these developments. And I also really wanted to highlight the London County Council's patronage of the arts programme because I really kind of concentrate on an LCC sculpture in my work and I really wanted to look at the role of this particular sculpture, which is of two dockers in the replanning of this part of London after the war and how it kind of represents and the changing environment of Poplar from the post-war years to today. What were you hoping to find when you started this research? Well, this research is actually part of my PhD work, which I'm nearly finished, which is looking at the wider kind of replanning of the old county of London, which existed before 1965. And I'm looking at about eight sculptures around London and what they tell us about the replanning of London. And so I was hoping with this specific sculpture, which is of two dockers by Sydney Harpley, I was looking to really kind of interrogate and understand a correlation or relationship between the installation of the dockers and its subsequent destruction and how that kind of tallies with the de-industrialisation of Poplar and the really vast kind of changes and gentrification of the area now. So to also kind of look at what these sculptures as a whole, tell us about that specific kind of post-war moment in London and the post-war replanning of London as well. Well, I can say, first of all, that it's a promising PhD programme you are conducting now, particularly in this study. Let us know about the most important findings. Well, as I said, I chart the history of Poplar from the post-war era to today using the dockers by Sydney Harpley. Sydney Harpley, excuse me. And I conclude that a lot of the replanning of Poplar and the building of the really kind of famous, well-known Lansbury Council estate in Poplar was built upon the assumption that London would really continue as the biggest, busiest port in the world. And that the industry surrounding that would remain. So that was really in the kind of LCC's minds when they were planning this area and they didn't really foresee the total collapse of industry in this area and the subsequent rise in unemployment with the so-called yuffies, which I mentioned in my article and yuffies were young urban failures failing to get a job, which isn't a particularly kind term. And then I kind of look at how the figure of the dockers, this sculpture becomes kind of irrelevant as the dock work falls away and how this sculpture, as well as being irrelevant, could be kind of a sort of painful reminder of a lost past. And the subsequent kind of regeneration of that area, firstly, by the LDDC, which is the London Docklands Development Corporation from 1981. And then most recently, I talk about what's happened at quite famous council blocks there, Robin Hood Gardens and Balfon Tower by the Smithsons and Erno Goldfinger. And the real kind of creeping regeneration and gentrification of that area and how that's really taken popular away from that industrial working class past that the LCC, the London County Council, really based their kind of post-war re-planning on. Of course. And can you let us know a bit what this means for city planning in the future for this and other areas? Well, I think it shows that there's a real kind of contrast in Britain's really recent past between post-war planning and now and how that impacts on individuals, but also communities and who we plan for and who our cities are for, particularly our inner cities, because Poplar is quite an inner city area. So the LCC, the London County Council, really planned for the local working class population in Poplar, whereas the LDDC, the London Docklands Development Corporation and also really recent redevelopment in that area, really is not planning for the kind of local working class, now very ethnically mixed as well, people in that area. And in addition, I think the LCC really kind of revered the people and industry of that area with the sculpture, the dockers, but also I talk about in the article, there's a mural showing the docks just near the Lansbury estate in Gorsefield House and the LCC were really trying to cater for that population. But what you see more recently now in London is heritage is kind of being explored, but also sort of exploited in areas to regenerate them. So if you think about Canary Wharf, which is nearby, which is an area I talk about in the article, there's lots of reference to the docks and the kind of maritime marine past of that area. So the dock cranes are left in situ, even though they're not used anymore. And also looking at the selling off of Goldfingers Balforn Tower in Poplar, the heritage of that is really explored and exploited on the website selling these flats. But the people that are sort of long term residents perhaps in that area are very much priced out of the area. And part of what makes that area very vibrant is how ethnically mixed it is as well. And again, the kind of the current reselling off of places like Poplar really kind of it really pushes areas to be less ethnically mixed as people are priced out the area. So part of what makes London interesting and exciting, the mix of people really kind of gets flattened out by this kind of planning, I think. Great. And so we have touched upon the what, the core of your research and the so what of your research. Very well explained. Let's focus now on the now what. So can you indicate to the researchers out there or listeners what comes next in this topic, comparing other other areas, for example, so what doors does your research open? Yeah, I mean, for sure, I think it definitely could apply to other areas. East London in particular, which is where Poplar is, is an area that has been, I suppose, for the past sort of few decades, maybe 40 years, really regenerated a lot and people are very much priced out of the area and there's lots of accusations of social cleansing. So I think, yeah, for sure, this article can be applied to other parts of London, particularly East London. And I think an important thing as well, I think this research opens up for is for more community engagement and community generated research in this area. I think whenever you're looking at an area where event whenever you're thinking about an area, particularly with this part of research, the impact of change really on people and communities, I think it's so important to include community perspectives in this. This was that was slightly outside the scope of this article, but I think that's really important. And I think as well looking at the artworks installed by the LCC after the war, I think oral histories around these artworks would be really important. A lot of these artworks that are still in situ on Council of States are very much kind of a little bit forgotten and a little bit hidden away. And I think it would be important to really highlight these and do some perhaps some oral histories around these as well. Again, that has been outside of the scope of both this article, but also my PhD work as well, because that's that's really kind of thorough, difficult work. Of course, Rosamund, you have been working a lot on this topic, also within your PhD program. Can you provide some additional resources or materials about topic discussed today? Yes, yeah, I mean, for a very good thorough history, architectural history, but also social history and industrial history of this area, I would recommend the Survey of London. They did the Survey of London released a book, well, two volumes volumes 43 and 44 on Poplar Blackhall and Isle of Dogs. That was published in 1994. I actually work for the Survey of London. So it's very much something that I use a lot in my work. It's incredibly comprehensive to volumes on this area. Definitely would recommend that. There's also, I was talking about some sort of community generated and community, community generated research and community voices. There's a really good BBC Radio 4 program, which you can get on BBC kind of catch up apps. And it's called The Long Shadow of Canary Wharf, and it's presented by a lady called Jane Martenson, who grew up in a council house in the area, and she worked in Poplar. So she talks a lot about the area, the history of it, the change of it and moving between Canary Wharf and Poplar. There's also a really good film. You can get it on YouTube. It was made in 1998 and it's called The Battle for Docklands, the story of the LDDC. And it really shows a lot of the sort of main players in the LDDC and in the change and regeneration of that area. And then finally, I would also recommend for anyone that is actually in London or is ever visiting, I actually lead an architectural walking tour of Canary Wharf and East India, which goes to kind of the Poplar area. And I do that with the charity Open City. So if you want to join me on a walk ever, definitely come along to that. A great recommendation. Thank you, Rossamond. Let's close our episode. If there is anything you would like our audience to remember about this talk. So what would it be? What's the punchline of today's discussion? I think the absolute punchline is to wherever you live, obviously this is about London, wherever you live, to look around and be curious. And London specifically look out for these LCC sculptures, like the dockers that is no longer there, but the plinth is there. And just be curious and look around because looking around your local environment, walking around is absolutely free to do. And if you're able-bodied, pretty accessible as well. So we've all got access to our built environment and it belongs to all of us. So I would definitely say that look around and be curious. It was a pleasure, Rossamond. Thank you. This podcast is powered by Kojitatu Press. You can listen to this episode on the Let's Talk About Urban Planning website, on Kojitatu's Press YouTube channel, and wherever you get your podcast.