 Welcome back to the Breakfast and Plus TV Africa. Our next conversation, of course, is going to insecurity. The leader of Boko Haram, Abu Bakar Shekau, has been reportedly killed or seriously injured for the obtained time. The difference rather at this time is that the news isn't coming from the Nigerian military. Sources say he was killed during a battle between Boko Haram and its splinter group, Icewap. But there is, of course, a twist to the story. He was reported to have committed suicide before Icewap could get to him. Now, of course, there's been numerous reactions to this, mostly from Nigerians. And we're going to be getting into a conversation with the former United States Marine, Captain Bish Johnson on the form this morning. Good morning. Thanks for joining us, Captain Johnson. Good morning. Good morning, and thank you for having me. You're welcome. Let's get into this. For some people, it's exciting news. And for some others, it is scary because what does this mean for Icewap? And, of course, does that mean that we now have a new terror group to be focused on? So from your experience, what would you interpret this as if Shekau truly has passed? Well, if in fact that Shekau is dead, I think there's some good news for Nigerian people. Because so far, Shekau seems to have been the most ruthless of every leader that Boko Haram had ever produced. Now, however, we must approach this information with caution. Because as you are aware, this is not the first time it's been said that Shekau had been killed, only for him to resurface in some kind of audio or video to say that, look, he is still alive. Now, you made a point in your introduction that the difference this time around is because he didn't come from Nigeria military. Sure. But if you equally read the information that he's been made available to the public, there's been a lot of inconsistencies. Some said he's dead. Some said he was fatally wounded. Some say that he committed suicide. So the information is neither here or there. But what is important is that, look, there seem to be some kind of disagreement between the two factions. And by the special grace of God, the two factions may eventually burn themselves out, reducing whatever effort that the Nigerian military will have to make to end this terror in the land. So it's good news that they are fighting among themselves. But we have to take the news of the death of Shekau with caution. Unless there is an undeniable, irrefutable evidence such as the use of DNA and the recovery of his body to confirm that he's actually dead. Well, I don't know how likely that would be, of course, since the military has not been able to, you know, reach him all this while. So let's talk about the two factions now. What is it likely that might be causing a rift between these two factions from your experience and years in the battlefield? What is the likely reason between these infractions, or rather causing these infractions at the same time? Don't they have the same ideology or the same goal? Well, they do have the same goal of trying to cover a territory for themselves within that North East Chad Niger area. But the difference is that their modus operandi is different. The Boko Haram people seem to be more ruthless in targeting everybody, including their fellow Muslims. While Aizwa is not interested in killing their fellow Muslims, their targets are Nigerian institutions and, you know, Christians. So that seems to be where they disagree. And that is one of the reasons why you see the infighting between them. Another thing is they are fighting for supremacy and recognition, who will be more recognized and who will be more noticed by the public. So that is what they are fighting about. They are fighting for supremacy and they also have differences in their modus operandi. Captain John Bish, I need to ask you about this report, the death of Abakash Akal. From as far back as 2009, the Nigerian army published reports that they had killed him, and then he resurfaced a year later. And we know about how they will keep saying he's dead, and he's back again, he's dead, and he's back again. Even for this particular report, it's conflicting. One source says he blew himself up with a suicide vest. Another said he shot himself to the chest. Other said, you know, he actually isn't dead, but he sustained injuries. Is it possible or find, first of all, before the possibility of, you know, what I was about to ask you, why is it so that, you know, killing or capturing Abakash Akal has been such a tough job for the Nigerian army? And also, for the news of his reports of death, is it that the army wasn't being straightforward with the Nigerian people? No, it's not the intention of the Nigerian military not to be straightforward with the Nigerian people. The problem we have in Nigeria is we are limited in terms of capacity to verify people's identity, whether alive or dead. Nigerians, ordinarily, they don't have any kind of DNA data bank. And even if they kill Shakao and recover his body, because there is not a DNA data bank to compare a DNA sample that would have been on record with a DNA extracted from the dead body, it's difficult for you to just make a pronouncement that somebody is dead. The Nigerian military has always claimed that, look, this man has been dead long while ago, that the person who has been appearing saying that his Abakash Akal is a lookalike. It's possible that they're doing something like that, since we don't have any technological, irrefutable evidence to say that, look, we have authoritatively killed this person. You saw what happened when Bin Laden was killed. You saw what happened when Abda Gadi was killed. You saw what happened when the leader of the terrorist group in Somalia, you know, I've forgotten his name, the Ashabab leader. Anytime the U.S. kills someone, they don't make it public until they have compared the DNA sample they have on record with a DNA sample from the body of the deceased. And they measure that they retrieve the body of the deceased so that they can extract the DNA and make comparison with what they have on file for that individual. In that instance, we are limited in our capacity here in Nigeria. I'll tell you how Abakadi's DNA sample was obtained. One of his closest aides brought his underwear to the United States military. From there, they extracted his DNA and put it on file. So when he was eventually killed, they had a record on file to make comparison from the one they extracted from his body. And so that was how they could authoritatively say, look, we have killed this person. And when you have that kind of evidence, it's difficult for that organization to come back and refute that kind of information. But that is not the case in Nigeria and that is why we have this kind of confusions everywhere. All right. So Captain Johnson, beyond all the high-tech stuff for the DNA, isn't that the Nigerian Army does not know what Abu Bakar Shakao looks like for us to keep having these reports of his death and resurrection? Well, if you see somebody today, and you don't see him for a while, and for somebody who is in hiding and is constantly under attack and is always changing his location, disguising himself, the memory of the person you're going to have is, as of the last time you saw that individual. Sorry, just a minute. Is it that the Nigerian Army is relying on memory? Don't they have photographs of him? Don't they have people who should be able to take high-level photographs, satellite images to track somebody, facial recognition, things like that? Is the Nigerian Army relying on memory to find Abu Bakar Shakao? That is what I was trying to allude to earlier. When I said that we are limited in capacity, we are limited in capacity in the Nigerian military. And so to that extent, there's not much they can do. And somehow they have not been able to penetrate the group through informants who could have been updating them with updates, as far as how the individual looks or they're aware about and stuff like that. So it's a much difficult job for them. I'm going to ask about that now. Why haven't we been able to achieve that level of infiltration into the Boko Haram sect over 10 years? It should be enough time for us to have been able to develop some level of infiltration into the sect. But besides that, you've mentioned that ISWAP and Boko Haram might have similar ideologies, but maybe just different methods somehow, some way. If it is true that Shakao is dead, does that in any way say that the Boko Haram sect might be diminishing bit by bit? And should that put fear in us that ISWAP and the emergence as a new superpower, super terror power in Nigeria, might become more ruthless seeing their relationship with ISIS? Look, let's not get over our head that Abu Bakar Shakao is dead. One thing I have learned about this terrorist organization is that they have grown beyond individuals. Although Abu Bakar Shakao was a very strong man of Boko Haram, he's dead. No question. We deal a blow to Boko Haram. But it will only be a matter of time before they will appoint a new leader. That leader may end up being more ruthless than the Abu Bakar Shakao himself, and they will regroup and reorganize themselves, and they will continue their terror of death and destruction. So let's not just get over our head. We have to watch and see how much the impact of death of Abu Bakar Shakao will cause to Boko Haram. As far as ISWAP is concerned, ISWAP has the same ideology as Boko Haram, and it's reflected in their name, Islamic State of West African province. They want to create a state for themselves, and they will continue to fight to achieve that objective. So the audience is announced as a nation, as a state, to act that objective and prevent them from achieving it. So how do you think this news might impact the insecurity levels in the country? I don't think you have any impact on the insecurity in the country. Because the insecurity in the country has been broadened far beyond Boko Haram and ISWAP in North East Nigeria. It used to be that the insecurity we had in this country was localized in that region. But as you know, and as I know, there is insecurity everywhere in the country right now. You have bandits, you have arsonists, you have armed robbers, you have kidnappers, you have abductors. There's all kinds of insecurity all over the country. You have the Janja Wid militia killer, Hezmen, who are equally ravaging the entire country. So the death of Abu Bakr Shekau is by no means going to have any impact in the reduction of insecurity that we have in this country right now. All right. Well, sadly, we of course would have to wait until there's some level of confirmation of his death, since nobody has any insiders in Boko Haram or ISWAP, and we've also not been able to infiltrate. So we'll wait and see how this turns out. Thank you very much, Captain Bish Johnson, for your time and for speaking with us this morning. Thank you very much for having me. All right. Thanks again. So we'll turn our focus now from insecurity and politics to actually politics of some other kind, which is politics in sports. Do stay with us.