 Hello and let's talk about the legacies of MS Dhoni, the former Indian skipper, retired from all forms of international cricket very symbolically on August 15th. Dhoni who played 90 tests, 351-day internationals and 98 T20 matches was one of the legends of Indian cricket no doubt. His captaincy saw some major landmarks including the famous victory in the 2011 World Cup. Dhoni's retirement has been a topic of discussion for quite some time and his last international match was the semi-finals of the 2019 World Cup against New Zealand. He was clearly India's most successful captain and his legacy both the positive and the negative aspects continues and will continue to be felt for quite some time. We spoke to Leslie Xavier on some of these aspects. Thank you Leslie for joining us. So the big news last week was of course the retirement of MS Dhoni as well as Suresh Raina and now there's been a lot of discussion about his contributions, a lot of glowing tributes from his teammates, those from the establishment, even the highest authorities in the country. So let's take a look at some of these issues today and one of the key issues of course is the idea of the legacy a player leaves behind and there's of course one way of looking at it which is the quantitative aspect, the numbers, the matches but both in Dhoni's case in positive and negative terms it's much more bigger than that. So let's say could we first start maybe talking about your idea of how you evaluate a player's legacy as in what maybe are the benchmarks even although it's like we said difficult to exactly point it down but what would be the some of the key benchmarks? So firstly let's also remember Suresh Raina because everyone seemed to have forgotten Suresh Raina but that's how he has built his career. He was always playing second fiddle to Dhoni or Kohli later in his playing career internationally but always a second fiddle too and I mean a sidekick to Dhoni so to speak both at the club CSK and as well as at the national team setup and getting back to Dhoni and legacy as such player legacy. So in cricket there are two distinct aspects to look into when we talk about legacy. First in Dhoni's case first is because in Suresh Raina says it would have been simple it's a player legacy we are talking about but in Dhoni's case we have to talk about the legacy of the wicketkeeper batsman as a player and also as a skipper of the team and in the Indian team setup or generally also if you look at international teams in cricket the captain has a big role to play as far as the building of the current lot is concerned and also building a team towards the future. So a classic example I would like to give is when we talk about cricket history we talk about Clive Lloyd and the role that he played in shaping the All-Conquering West Indian side and he was a skipper and he is always considered as the pivotal figure. There were a lot of stars that that team was full of stars Vibhichars, Michael Olding. I mean you just close your eyes and point a finger you will be pointing at a star. So the same thing applies to the Australian side of the 90s and the early 2000s. So that transition of the side began with a great Aussie captain Alan Gauder and then Mark Taylor took it forward and then it Steve Bohr inherited a momentum with the team a beautiful team that was built over the last previous 10 years and then just he just dominated the next 10 years and even the Australian side took a dip after that golden generation period where they I mean arguably they are still trying to get things figured out as far as getting back to where they were 10 years back. So that's the role that the captains have to play in cricket in a larger sense. You mould the current team as world beaters but also ensure that you blend in youngsters into a system which takes the team forward to the next level not necessarily just World Cup winners. Because World Cup as a tournament, individual tournament, victory, losses, I mean all these things are not exactly an aesthetic I would look into but generally the team's domination over a period that's what the strength of the team or the greatness of the team lies and such kind of a building I mean whether Dhoni was able to as a leader of the team make that crucial link between two generations it's that's that would be his real legacy and when we when we talk about his contribution to cricket that's the biggest catchphrase that's been doing the round Dhoni is thanking for your contribution to cricket. We should not just think in terms of two World Cups but think also in terms of what the kind of setup and the team that he gave handed over to Virat Kohli the next in line as keeper. Right so in this context let's maybe say start from the beginning in the sense that when he did get the team and he when he did become the captain he was actually in some senses given a team which was already moving towards its peak and that was actually a major role especially in the 2011 World Cup. So he took over the T20 captaincy to start with the 2007 World Cup and it was a disastrous year till then for Indian cricket because they played atrociously bad at the ODI World Cup in the West Indies the loss in the first round came back and in fact Dhoni sites it as one of the turning points of his career the kind of mob the attacks that happened around his house and he was not allowed to travel to Ransi he stayed put in Delhi for safety concerns etc. So that's the T20 and so T20 was a new concept at that point and people say that Dhoni made the best out of a very I mean rag tag team so to speak not exactly a team full of legends yeah they had great explosive players like you were saying Srichan great short short over format fast bowler they had good names in it in the mix as well as far as the team is concerned but then the format was new BCCI decided that they are not sending some of the bigger players they were resting them because they were not very keen they didn't understand the new format they were not very I mean open about its potential that he had IPL changed that obviously now 10-12 years down the road we know what exactly this format has done for cricket and with in that set up Dhoni steps in and Dhoni as a cricketer it was perfect for Dhoni the format as well as the kind of team that he had because then he could exert the kind of leadership which had become his hallmark in the later years which we celebrate now also the maverick nature of his decisions the logic the street smart logic if I can call that that he brings on to the playing field and which which I mean revolutionary ideas as well just like his batting and which which catch opponents by surprise most of his field settings the change of balling the the kind of point by point ball by ball observations and tips that he gives to ballers when the ball saying there is for yeah I mean these are caught on camera caught on the microphone the way he talks with ballers I mean not just saying shabash shabash which was the role of the wicketkeeper from earlier days but but giving exact inputs in yeah yeah up a dollar so this guy will get out so it the format was perfect for him the leader the style of players that he had and I was perfect for him he made the best of it and yeah with a bit of luck and whatever he made victory out of it but the larger setup was the ODI setup which which which took years in the making till the narrative that team and it had legends in it it had Sachin Tendulkar the start will be in the sevag VBS was there in the setup rabbit was there so some of the greatest players to have ever played in India was there in that setup and a team that was I mean more or less complete in its transition from where it was when so let's let's go back to the this team's roots it started in early 2000 after that match fixing scandal when Saurav Ganguly took over as the as the stripper and foreign coaches started leading the Indian side so it started with John Wright and then Greg Chappell so Dhoni's entry into the national team setup came around Greg Chappell and Greg Chappell has been quoted multiple times about the vision that he had for Dhoni he always felt that Dhoni as was a national leader he was fearless he had a lot of qualities which he correlated with posse qualities as far as players are concerned and then came Gary Kirsten so so with this I mean player the coaches who were at some point legends in the game themselves coming in and into a system where there was always hero worship as far as captains or the leaders of the team and the seniors in the team is concerned these coaches were able to break that kind of a system Greg Chappell not so successfully because he felt he had a lot of issues with people like ganguly etc but Gary Kirsten was able to partly because of the nature that he carries himself with he was able to break into that mold and then he got someone like Dhoni to execute his plans Dhoni himself had his own inputs things like that it worked perfectly so he had a team in a platter it's I'm not saying Dhoni didn't have contribution in that team but if you look at that 2011 World Cup winning team the team was swimming with legendary players if they had not made it into the final and won that championship they would have of course we all as fans we always think that all the Indian teams underachieved at the World Cup but this team for sure if they had not won that World Cup they would have under underachieved grossly and Dhoni was there and he led the team perfectly because even with the greatest of teams and the greatest of players you need a leader who could bind it all together and Dhoni had that kind of a persona for sure absolutely that's my assessment as far as his leadership is concerned but let's move to towards the end of his career as a captain since you're talking about these aspects was he able to do pretty much the same to the team regarding what he got when compared to what he got as in the transition you talked about which is perhaps the most important aspect of a captain's legacy one of the key aspects of his functions has the same kind of transition process was that set in place where the captaincy was handed over to Kohli so it's a very subjective issue because when we look at numbers again so under Kohli the team has done admirably well except for the ICC tournaments where they have failed in the I mean failing in the semis is not an achievement in ICC tournaments when you consider that there are only 10 teams playing so let's just be very clear you reach the final otherwise you are and being India the kind of resources and the kind of money that is there in the game you better reach that final and better in it I mean at least reaching the finalist of this thing so Kohli received a team from Dhoni the test team first and then the then the sort of format teams but the interesting point is that there was Dhoni was in the last World Cup team and the idea was that Dhoni will bring in experience will bring in things that would help Kohli so there itself there is a bit of a what do you call that conflict of interest as far as Dhoni's legacy and Dhoni's continuation in the in the team setup because his presence is important because the next leader doesn't have that kind of a capability of reading the game so I mean is it Dhoni's responsibility to nurture the next line of skipper you bet it is because it's the same in any arena you look at a corporate setup you want the current CEO to nurture second line of leaders so that the company is taken forward otherwise otherwise it's a failure and the same thing applies to any sporting setup political system also we have seen empires collapse because because there was single leadership strength strength concentrated on single leadership in political parties the same thing applies here so Kohli the transition from Kohli's captaincy to the kind of players that Kohli has under so Dhoni had a bunch of legends in the team current the Indian team setup as a lot of players were talented we have number one ODI Gowla we have good batsman we have Rohit Sharma for instance who is a tremendous short format batsman a bunch of decent players very talented some would go on and mark themselves as great in the future hopefully but there is not kind of a awe-inspiring figure or figures in that setup yet so and that that that requires years of build-up it's not like a talented player comes in and the same thing applied with Kohli so I have I've had this discussion with the people who were involved in the team setup when Kohli came into the scene 2008 2009 thereabouts the trainer the physio was involved physical aspect of it one of the batting coaches they all said the youngsters who were coming into the setup when the legends were there playing game regularly I said they were allowed freedom you developed your game you practice you being the setup you get your game you train you fail you come back you work on it so that kind of a building building setup was there for these youngsters which was partially implemented of course by Dhoni's presence and partially because the leadership the coaches also had that kind of a vision the current manager or coach Ravi Shastri and Virat Kohli their setup works slightly different differently it's evident from the way things are and when we look at building a site for the future and building a site for the present it's it's it's it's not happening anymore and that kind of a culture shift started towards the fag and of Dhoni's stint as as captain because ultimately you get into that result cycle and building a building a leaving legacy lasting legacy as far as this comes and so that happened a little I think right yeah and also finally the key issue of Dhoni as a captain's captain outside the field too as a representative of India India his clubs cricket the country's cricket because we also went through a time when with the nature of media attention that was happening with the kind of money that was happening the captain also becomes far and more and more a pivotal figure so in those aspects do you think that of course there were a lot of ways and a lot of things he said a lot of attempts he made to sort of stand out outside the field also but do you how do you how do you sort of square his legacy at the end of when we look at it right now in terms of off field say performance or off field positions and the role he occupied so Dhoni's role has always centered around cricket that way yeah of course the kind of stances that he is love for the armed forces and the stances that he has taken it's it's questionable we ourselves that means click at question some of his antics if I can call it that and but otherwise within the cricket circle itself there are certain questionable aspects which I feel we should we should mention also when we discuss Dhoni's I mean now that he's retired and when we discuss his long career I mean great career no doubt and it's let's get into the IPL aspect of it first because he is the longest standing he has the longest standing association with with the particular franchise Chennai Super Kings and he led the team to title there they were finalist multiple times under him and he built a very successful franchise over there I mean successful over I mean the last 11 years of IPL CSK is the most successful team but CSK is the most controversial team also and it was right in the embroil right right in the middle of the match fixing controversy that it hit IPL along with Rajasthan Royals and understandably at that point Dhoni was silent about it because it was under subjudice it was under investigation also but then post whatever the decisions and the suspension of CSK and then green station of CSK into the IPL I feel as a skipper because he has a larger role here he's not just a mere player because Indian cricket team skipper is a figure which is larger than the I mean the game itself in as far as the country is concerned it's evident from the kind of tributes that has come out for him after he retired and he is still silent there is no clarity one documentary which was produced by CSK he spoke about how testing it was for the players who had done no wrong as far as he knows and he equated match fixing to be worse than murder because cricket has made him so if he fixes match or if any of the players fixes match it will be worse than worse than the biggest crime that a man can ever commit so but then these are all sweeping I mean borderline I mean not touching anything specific so yeah so as far as cleaning that slate was concerned the best would have been to present what exactly happened as far as the team said it was concerned just to explain that the team was clean because now when as outsiders when we look at it the team was penalized because they did something wrong and and the people who were penalized where the guys who were involved in the team management not and in the coterie outside the playing playing 15 or the squad for sure but still when the team is penalized and then when there is silence about what exactly the player stands and the players was at that point then then doubts come in how can a team be wrong and players be clear but these are just doubts and I what I'm just saying was that as as people of Indian team the the stature that Dhoni had risen he could have risen above it all by just clarifying it all together but then again he has I mean he has shown that he is just an Indian cricketer that way because we have someone like Sachin Tendulkar who was right in the who was god of cricket when match fixing happened in the Indian team setup and even in his biography he just he just didn't find it worthy enough to be to be clarified so exactly that's how that's how it works here I mean so what we what we what we do have is someone who perform admirably on the field both as a batsman as a wicked keeper as a captain but also someone who came in as an outsider but also became in some senses very much an insider and part of the core establishment exactly that's that's that's a kind of assessment that I would look at it and I I feel that that's how that's how Indian cricket is set up you can't be an outsider forever and stand out or or take it forward so Dhoni had to be part of that setup and I had to accept whatever the status quo is as far as a skipper should be or a player in the Indian team ship that you you become a system man absolutely thank you so much Leslie for talking to us that's all we are time for today we'll be back tomorrow with major news developments from the country until then keep watching news click