 M troop gy wider includes the ministerial statement, the next item of business is a debate on motion 8291 in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville on expansion of vocational and technical qualifications in Scotland secondary schools. I'll just allow a moment or two for members to change seats. Can I invite members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons? I call on Shirley-Anne Somerville to speak to and move the motion up to 13 minutes, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I move the motion in my name. I'm delighted this afternoon to celebrate the expansion of vocational and technical qualifications on offer to senior phase learners in Scotland's secondary schools. It's almost a decade since we launched developing the young workforce, our youth employment strategy, in schools as has resulted in a significant increase in the number and type of vocational and technical courses and qualifications that secondary schools now offer. It has been possible because curriculum for excellence provides a broad framework within which educators are empowered to provide learning and teaching experiences that best suit the needs of individual learners. In this time, secondary schools have significantly expanded the curriculum opportunities for learners to develop skills for and experience of work. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to all those in their roles in schools, local authorities, colleges, employers, third sector organisations and indeed the wider communities who have worked to provide the ever-increasing range of opportunities for our school learners as part of their curriculum. Just last month, official statistics showed that in 2022 a record number of school leavers went on to work, training or further study. I want to congratulate those learners, especially those who faced significant disruption due to the Covid pandemic during their senior phase of secondary school for their achievements. The statistics show that the percentage of 21-22 school leavers in a positive destination was the highest on record. The gap between the school leavers from the most and least deprived areas progressing into further education, training or employment has narrowed to a record low of 14.4 percentage points. That is the reduction of two thirds compared to 2009-10. That success is replicated across Scottish education. We see the number of school teachers in Scotland increased since 2007. Overall pupil teacher ratios remain at near record levels, with the current ratio of pupils to teachers maintained at 13.2 is lowest level since 2009. We spend more per pupil and have more teachers per pupil than any other nation in the UK. There is alliance and hard work of our teachers and young people is extraordinary. Last year, we saw one of the strongest ever set of qualification results in the exam year, compared with 2019, the last year where we had exams. Pass rates for that five higher and advanced hires are up. Importantly, the attainment gap has narrowed slightly. Willie Rennie. You think that there is nothing wrong with Scottish education with how she has started off her contribution. Does she not reflect on the fact that, just take one example, the massive shortage of STEM teachers that feeds right into vocational education and training? Does she not recognise that that is a real problem in her education system? I unsurprisingly have begun with what there is to celebrate in Scottish education, and there is a great deal to celebrate in Scottish education. I hope that we could all take the opportunity to do a little bit of that today. As well as Mr Rennie raises where there is a challenge—it is not unique to Scotland, but there is a challenge—we see STEM teacher numbers at its highest level since 2011. Of course, we have more to do to ensure, for example, through the STEM bursaries that we can continue to encourage young people and, indeed, those who are already in a career to take up STEM teaching. We also see a record number of full-time first-degree entrance to university coming from the most deprived areas. A strong record in education is further underlined by the fact that Scotland ranked fourth in the recent 2018 PISA study of global competence. Given that record number of school leavers that are going to work, training or further study, it tells me that curriculum for excellence is preparing learners well for the futures. Indeed, curriculum for excellence has been endorsed by independent international experts, the OECD, with Dr Beistres Pong quoted as saying that curriculum for excellence has expanded the opportunities for Scottish learners to thrive. I am very grateful to the cabinet secretary for giving way, and she might not want to take Willie Rennie's criticisms, but the OECD itself said that there needs to be further integration with vocational qualifications and curriculum for excellence. Rather than just trotting out the lines on what she thinks is going well, would she accept that that is an area that we need to improve on in terms of curriculum for excellence in Scottish education? Again, the member raises a very important point about what the OECD has said about encouraging us to look to reform. That is exactly why one of the first things I did when appointed as cabinet secretary for education was to develop the education reform process, which is just about to report in many ways, particularly the Louise Hayward work, which is a specific example of trying to take on some of the challenges that Daniel Johnson has quite rightly raised. I will make no apologies for coming to this chamber and celebrating what is good within Scottish education. I wish more people did the same, Presiding Officer, but I think that the record also, as my time as cabinet secretary, has shown that I am ready to reform and ready to take those tough decisions, and I hope that members across the chamber will support us when we actually see those reform reports being published. If the member will allow, I will make a little bit more progress. Importantly, in this context of this debate, it is encouraging to see how many learners have taken advantage of the breadth of choice now available in the senior phase, reflected in the fact that the proportion of school leavers gaining vocational and technical qualifications at SQF level 5 and above has gone up again. That is 20 percentage points higher than in 2013-14. Let us be clear that the diversification of learner pathways and qualifications is not at the expense of achievement in relation to national qualifications. Last year, we saw one of the strongest ever set of qualification results in exam year. As I have said, for a number of occasions I have already, Presiding Officer, Scottish Education has strong foundations. However, this Government is ambitious to see real transformational change that will ensure that all learners have the opportunity to undertake courses that best match their abilities and aspirations and offer a sound footing for their route through and beyond secondary school. The world around us has changed beyond recognition over the past few years, and our learners and those who support them deserve a system that listens to them and our needs and is flexible and adaptable to change. That is why I have committed to an ambitious education reform programme that is on-going and is starting now to demonstrate in a number of ways how we are putting learners at the centre of all that we do. I am looking forward to the publication of the vision for Scottish education following the national discussion that took place last year. That provides us an opportunity to establish a 20-year vision for education in Scotland that can drive decision making right across the system. Members across the chamber should have confidence in what comes from the national discussion because it has children and young people at its heart. It was, of course, jointly convened with COSLA, independently facilitated by professors Carol Campbell and Alma Harmas, and received over 5,700 responses. The national discussions publication in the spring will produce a vision for the future, a unifying vision against which we will test all further reform. It will provide an opportunity for Scotland as a nation to be very clear about the purpose of education. That is not just the Scottish Government's vision, and it provides the opportunity for everyone involved in Scottish education to start the next chapter with a clear and shared goal. Everyone absolutely will always include Fergus Ewing, and I will give way to the member. Cabinet Secretary, thank you so much for not forgetting about me. I just raised an issue that was raised with me yesterday by Chris Dowling, who is the co-ordinator of the developing young workforce programme in Highland and who is responsible through Inverness Chamber for employing 20 school co-ordinators. Their contracts are on a year-to-year basis. The year is up at the end of this month. They have not had notice of their capital allocation. I know that Sandy Begby and Joe Griffin are working hard on this, as are our other officials. However, can the cabinet secretary look in to getting that information out? A year-to-year means that you have no job security, you cannot get a mortgage, you are inclined to go for another job and you are not able, really, to give your full contribution to it. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I believe that the minister has met and discussed the issue, but I can assure you that it is also something that I am unaware of, and we are very keen to make sure that those who work very hard within the developing young workforce have the assurance that we can possibly give them at this time. I give my assurance to the member that that is very much already on my radar. I can now move to the work that Professor Louise Hayward and her on-going independent review into qualifications and assessments has been doing. I am very supportive of that review's vision to create an inclusive and highly-regarded qualifications and assessment system that inspires learning, values diversity of achievements and supports all learners into the next phase of their lives, socially, culturally and economically. I very much welcome the significant levels of engagement in that review, but particularly for learners as well. We have also heard the very strong voices from higher education, further education and industry, which are also critically important to ensuring that any future decisions will create a qualification system that both recognise and value right across further education, higher education and through employers. I am very clear that we need to find a way of making parity of esteem between vocational and technical and national qualifications a reality so that Scotland can adapt to meet new global challenges. We also, of course, have the skills delivery review led by James Withers, which is also very relevant in that context. We know that we need to, right across the country, prepare learners to gain skills to better prepare them for their futures and the skills landscape is very important in that. Vocational and technical qualifications also provide learners with important practical skills, as well as the knowledge of the worlds of work, important experience and a chance to develop the attributes that we know employers value greatly. In fact, the most recent Scottish employers perspective survey in 2021 found that the majority of employers found school leavers to be well or very well prepared for the world of work. We see the benefits of our significant investment in young people through developing the young workforce and also the young person's guarantee. Scotland has higher employment rates and lower unemployment rates of 16 to 24 year olds than the rest of the UK. The Minister for Higher Education, Further Education and Youth Employment and Training in closing this debate will share more with you about what we have done with school, college partnerships, foundation apprenticeships and other elements of developing the young workforce programme to transform work-related learning and enable the significant expansion of a range of vocational and technical courses that we have. We have also ensured that the Scottish credit and qualifications framework partnership continues to be supported as it has a very important role in this. There is also an important role in awards that are seen such as the Youth Scotland Youth Achievement Awards, the Sol Tire Awards, the Duke of Edinburgh Awards, the Young Steam Leader Awards and so on. Those are important recognitions of further work that goes on in our schools. I mentioned one example of a can of Barhead High School in East Renfisher, which has greatly expanded its curriculum. In the last two years, 100 per cent of Barhead High Schools leavers have progressed into employment further or higher education training or another positive step, and I pay credit to the work that they have done and other schools do across the country. In conclusion, it has been, I hope, today a real opportunity for us to celebrate what we can do in Scottish education, to see what the challenges are but also to acknowledge and celebrate the real progress that has been made in expanding vocational and technical qualifications on offer in Scotland's schools. Of course we can go further, of course there is more to do, but if we deliver and we implement on our education reform agenda, we will do just that. I now call on Stephen Kerr to speak to and move amendment 8291.2 for around nine minutes. I move the amendment in my name. These past few weeks have been chaotic for the SNP. The veil of pretense of the last couple of decades has been ripped away and it has been like that seen in the Wizard of Oz when all is revealed and the people of Scotland are left saying, we can see you and a week from now we will have a new leader of the SNP. So this could very well be the last time I have the pleasure of speaking in a debate opposing Shirley-Anne some of all in her role as Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills. Who knows? We have had our differences and, whilst she is a political opponent, she is not and has never been my enemy. So, regardless of what Transparency next week, I in all sincerity offer my best wishes to her personally. Extending this conciliatory tone, I am pleased to say that there is a great deal of consensus that can be struck around this important subject that we are debating. If we push aside the usual dollop of hubris in the Government motion and in the Cabinet Secretary's speech, we will support the Government motion tonight and the Labour amendment, and I hope that the Government will support both of the amendments, because Scotland flourishes when the opportunities of our young people are maximised. For their futures and for all of our futures, we need to address the significant challenges facing our nation—the need for better productivity, the need for skills to take advantage of automation, artificial intelligence, the transition to net zero, and an increasingly volatile global situation. It is why, Presiding Officer, that we should look at the choice, attainment and positive destinations exploring the impact of curriculum policy change on young people report, published recently by Stirling University and the Nuffield Foundation, because it speaks to a need to ensure that Scotland's young people get the broadest possible general education covering the broadest possible range of subjects. We cannot afford to narrow their choices because we need the talent of every single child regardless, and that is why the shortages of science, technology, engineering and mathematics teachers must be addressed and why we need to do everything that we can to attract people with specialist skillsets into the teaching profession. We need inspirational teachers—teachers to lift the gaze of our young people and show them a world of possibilities. The Scottish Government's social research report, The Impact of Scotland's Developing the Young Workforce Strategy on Education, which was published last week, speaks well on the need to move beyond the attainment of qualifications and focus on meta-skills. A big part of my leadership role in business before I was elected to the public office was about building talent. It is about recruitment and retention of talented people, and employers are always on the lookout for people with skills in teamworking, group leadership, thinking outside of the box and problem solving. There is a real cost to business when they cannot recruit skilled people. There is a cost of recruitment itself, but there is also the opportunity cost of lost productivity than to poorly-skilled workers and missed business opportunities. We need businesses engaged in our schools. That is clear, and we do our young people a grave disservice when we fail to properly expose them to the real world of work. We fail them because we do not allow them to see the vast possibilities that exist for them. We fail them when we do not help them to understand that the world of work is crying out for people who have their talents, skills and passions. That is why we need to expose our children and young people to the world of work. I cannot see why we cannot do that from the earliest years. Play is a very effective way to make that introduction. We can give our young people a vision of their possibilities and reinforce that vision by bringing them into contact with a whole variety of businesses, sectors, roles and careers choices throughout their years of broad general education and then helping them to be personally equipped with the confidence and the resilience and the skillsets that they need to take advantage of the opportunities that exist. Businesses can and must make that investment in our classrooms. No doubt it is in their best interests to do it, but we must be sure that when businesses make the investment, when they prepare to provide support, they do not come up against a brick wall, that there are not barriers to getting into the school. Although there are examples of schools opening their doors to the local business community and interacting with all kinds of businesses and organisations, there are also places where none of that happens and that must change. There cannot be a postcode lottery in matters as important as those. A barrier to curriculum-based work-related learning is that teachers feel overburdened as it is and that they lack the confidence and the resources that they need to build work-related learning into their lessons, so we need to support our teachers to help them to make this possible, because this is the kind of innovative approach that shows what Scotland's educational experience should be. It needs more support, it needs to be rolled out across our nation so that all of Scotland's young people can benefit. We need wider recognition of the importance of sound career guidance from S3 onwards, and I welcome the work that is being done in this area, but I want us to go further. We also need to recognise the importance of personal mentoring, especially in the senior phase. This should not be a tick box exercise. We should draw on all available talent from across the community, from businesses, professional bodies and organisations in the area. I have nothing but praise for all those already mentoring young people across Scotland, very often in a voluntary capacity. Let's over-invest in helping young people, see what their options are and help them to get to the places that they want to get to. We will all be winners when we help them to win, but there is a disparity that is holding us back. Traditional ingrained attitudes towards technical subjects and technical and professional qualifications are holding us back. Too many people still believe that there is a best pathway for a child, and that pathway involves passing hires, advanced hires and going to university. For some young people, that is the best path for them, but there are other paths, and those paths are just as good. Emma Harper What you are talking about is just making me think about what is happening locally in Dumfries and Galloway, where businesses are engaging with schools. Jaspy, Wilson and Dalbyty are one of them. The kids are being valued for choosing whatever path they want, which might not be uni. It might be the vocational skills. Do you agree that there is work being done out there that is talking about exactly what you have been on your feet for the last few minutes? Thank you. I apologise, Presiding Officer. Stephen Kerr, and I will give you the time back. Emma Harper is right. There is indeed some really good work going on, but it is not equally distributed across Scotland. There are gaps, and those gaps should be a priority to fill. Hospital educational experience. I would say, Deputy Presiding Officer, that as long as we hold on to those old, out-of-date ideas about the value of different pathways available to young people, we are going to hold on to them as an economy and as a society. Stuart McMillan I thank Stephen Kerr for taking the intervention. Similar to what my colleague Emma Harper just said, when I was at an Inverclyde, my party does not control Inverclyde, but there is a lot of great work taking place. Can Stephen Kerr actually name the local authority areas where there is a problem that he would like to see fixed? I am not going to do that for obvious reasons. That is not the purpose. I do not think that that is a very good use of my time, but I give way to the cabinet secretary. Cabinet Secretary In the spirit of consensus, just in cases, our last debate, I welcome Stephen Kerr's remarks on this. I encourage him, if he has not done so already, to read the interim report by Professor Louise Hayward, which is very much trying to get to how we not just see one right or successful way through school, but there is a myriad of ways we can do that, and we must reform to be able to capture that in its widest sense. I agree with the cabinet secretary in respect to Louise Hayward's work. I look forward to the full report when it comes out, I think, in May, and I look forward to that very much. As I bring my remarks to the conclusion, I would like to challenge the Government. If the Government truly wants to ensure a party of esteem—and I think that we all do—then it does have to start with a party of funding. We should be fully funding our young people's choices, whether they go to university, college or into an apprenticeship. That would go a long way to address the funding issues that our colleges have. That is the real world, and I hope that the minister of responding will not seek to deny that there is a financial challenge. However, while I am doing today is making an appeal to social justice and the common good, because this is about equality of opportunity, that is what is needed. Regardless of who you are, Deputy Presiding Officer, what your background is, which postcode you live in, you can achieve what you want, you can be what you want to be, you can do what you want to do, that is what being a young Scot should mean. That is the philosophy on these benches, and we will support all measures to make that a reality for every young person in Scotland when we invest in our young people, we invest in the future of our nation. To have a Scottish education system worthy of its heritage, worthy of the young people it serves, then we must build a system of education that offers diverse opportunities for young people to engage with work, with different ways of learning and with the possibilities that the future holds. I urge all members to support the amendment in my name. I move the amendment in my name. I hope to start the speech today with some observations on the various candidates for First Minister's positions on education. We tuned in on YouTube, unfortunately they had absolutely nothing to say about education whatsoever, so we turned over to the new Luther film, which was slightly less aggressive instead. The Scottish Labour is always happy to debate the educational needs of our young people and the skills they need to succeed in our future economy and to build Scotland's future. This Government motion provides an extremely narrow picture of what is happening in our schools, our colleges and our workplaces, and too narrow in my view to be deemed appropriate, representative or in many areas responsible. Rather opening up choice and opportunity, this Government has waged a 15-year campaign to collapse choice and opportunity. The recent report from the University of Stirling and the Nuffield Foundation choice, attainment and positive destinations lays that bare. The impact of the policy choices made by this Government over 15 years, botched curriculum design and implementation, failure to recruit teachers in core subject areas, stripping out huge amounts of resources and, as ever, the consequences weigh most heavily on the poorest. Options may exist in theory but, for far too many, they are not real. Let me tell you how. At the start of 2021, Government data showed that an average S5 pupil in Dundee was enrolled in 3.5 subjects, which was an entire subject less than in 2014. In brave U academy, that was an average of 2.5 subjects, among the lowest in the whole of Scotland, just down the road at the Farmer Affluent Grove academy, four subjects. That is the real story of options available to young people in Scotland today. Certainly. I thank the member for allowing the intervention. The Nuffield Pressureley report is a very important report, and I have enjoyed my time speaking to Professor Peatley on it. Can the member also recognise that what it is talking about is national qualifications, which actually does not include much of what we are talking about today and the wider aspects that are now available within our schools, the whole entire point of it is to ensure that we are celebrating those as well as the national qualifications. They are equally as important. I would say to the cabinet secretary that in the same year 2021, at SCQF level 5, just one candidate achieved the qualification in engineering practice, which she is talking about. 46 in construction skills, 250 in cyber security, compare that to 44,000 candidates for English. If the cabinet secretary really thinks that that is a significant broadening of the choice and availability and options being taken by young people, I am really flabbergasted by it. When we consider the rapid and accelerating change in our economy and wider society, the stakes cannot be higher in this area. Challenges posed by climate change, demographic change and technological change, ubiquitous innovations, AI and machine learning, it is clear that we urgently need to strengthen those key areas of workforce with skills and qualifications in STEM subjects. Those qualifications are notionaly available in those areas that I have just outlined, but in reality they are far too limited. The untapped potential of young people in such vital areas as those should kickstart meaningful action from the Government immediately if we are to avert a national skills shortage, which will threaten our future economic viability. Audit Scotland was abundantly clear in the damning report on planning for skills in January 2022 on this issue. Responsibility for setting a direction lies with Government ministers and they have utterly failed to do so. Ministers did not provide the necessary leadership for progress. Those are Audit Scotland's words. Despite a commitment to improve skills planning in 2017, clearly articulate to Skills Development Scotland and the Scottish Funding Council what it expects of them in working together to implement skills alignment, ministers are also failing abjectly to provide any vision, strategy or guidance and they do so also to the future of our colleges. Many of the qualifications that we are talking about today and that are hailed in the Government motion are taught and awarded in partnership with our further education sector. Yet time and time again we see ministers proving to be incapable of providing adequate funding or strategic direction to the college sector. The Scottish Funding Council's coherence and sustainability review of tertiary education published in 2021 called for a clear, strategic, long-term vision and intent for the future of tertiary education, one that responds better to current and future needs of pupils, students, employers and broader economic and social drivers. In response, the Government said that it welcomed it and broadly accepted the review recommendations. That became another review, now practice and principles, still years on unpublished. Colleges are awaiting the light at the end of the tunnel in the hope that it is not a speeding train in the form of yet more savage cuts from this Government. There is an unfolding college funding crisis today with no money for agreed pay awards, voluntary severance schemes being opened across the country and underpinned by the real threat of compulsory redundancy, certainly. I am wondering during the budget process when the Labour Party came forward with fully-costed proposals and alternatives for this, or is this just a little bit more hot air from the Labour Party benches and nothing constructive when it mattered during the budget process? Michael Marra can give you the time back. Thank you, Presiding Officer. On this point in the budget, we have had plenty of hot air from the Government. We have had quick to trumpet £26 million of additional funding to the college sector in the 2023-24 budget, yet, months later, it is completely unclear to the Scottish Funding Council and to colleges what the purpose of the funding is. It has been referred to as transition funding, but no one has determined, Presiding Officer, what colleges are supposed to be transitioning to. I have asked the minister—he said to ask the SFC—to ask the minister whether it is a shambles of indecision, dither and hopeless delay. No, thank you. You can perhaps address that in your closing speech, because the absence of any strategic direction from this Government and without guarantee that the £26 million will become core funding, colleges are taking difficult financial decisions with no idea whether they are the right ones. I hope that he answers those questions today, because the numerous opportunities that the Minister has had in this Chamber and Committee have been clear. Without swift decisive action, it will soon be difficult for our young people to benefit from school, college and partnerships at all. Scotland's young people need a Government that is willing to face up to the current challenges in our education system, prepared to do the hard work and to engage in genuine reform. That is the change that Scotland needs. I think that it is important to recognise when education is making progress. In fact, I go to schools almost every single week and I commend teachers and pupils for the work that they do. However, I think that this place is about driving improvement. It is not just about self-congratulation. It should not just be filled with speeches—as I am sure that we will hear later on—of a list of massive achievements when there are clearly significant challenges that need to be addressed. That motion today and the debate so far has been self-congratulatory and the superficially attractive increase in the numbers taking part in the foundation apprenticeships and other routes is positive. However, the OECD was very critical that the Scottish Government had hardly any substantial data on destinations, on the value that young people feel about those courses, on the value that employers perhaps feel or do not feel about those courses, and whether there is a uniform offer across the country, particularly in rural areas, perhaps in areas that do not have a local college, where Michael Marra has quite rightly identified the big differences between school to school in terms of the range of subjects being taken and the pitiful number, sometimes, that young people are taking up those options. We have no real data on any of that and we need to have a far more substantial body of evidence before we can spend time in this chamber congratulating ourselves on how successful we have been. The charter institute for personal development has been very striking in its criticisms of the approach so far. It highlights that employers feel that young people who come from school are poorly prepared for work. That has been a story that has been lasted through the generations, but we seem to be incapable of addressing the substantial issue. There are big gaps in recruitment and there is an imbalance between graduates and those taking alternative routes for education. We have a significant number of people who are graduates who are underemployed. They are not employed in areas that their education and training would help them to achieve. Yes, I will take an intervention. Minister Rennie mentioned the CIPD report on employer perspective on the readiness of pupils for the world of work, but would he also reflect on the Scottish employer perspective survey from 2021, which said that the majority of them found that they were ready for work? Willie Rennie can give you the time back. That is exactly the point. We have a substantial body, the charter institute for personal development, who have highlighted through evidence that there is a challenge. The minister instead of addressing that issue comes up with some counter-evidence that he believes knocks down the charter institute for personal development. It is important to recognise the challenges that we face in Scottish education, and we address that problem substantially rather than just dismissing the evidence that is put forward by our authoritative body. No, not just now. If you look at the construction industry training board, it highlights the lack of parity of esteem, even within those who are taking these alternative routes, the foundation apprenticeships, between construction and other qualifications. How on earth can we get to the position that we are going to meet the challenges that we face in terms of net zero if we do not have a parity of esteem even within those who are taking foundation apprenticeships, that they are not available in all schools? There are pitiful numbers, very small numbers, who are taking up those options in schools. If you look at the numbers that they reckon that we need—not just now, Fagishan, I will come back in a second—the extra workers that the construction industry reckon that we require is 19,550. They recognise that there are going to have to be 22,500 people who are trained and new roles supplied in order to meet the net zero obligations. That is an enormous number, but yet so few are taking it up in school. Mr Rennie rightly mentions the importance of preparing young people for workforce. Does he agree with me, not to disappoint colleagues around the chamber for failing to raise this matter, that one way to prepare people for work of all sorts is to endow them with the skills of learning how to touch type and communicate clearly, precisely, swiftly and effectively? Moreover, it is an incredibly inexpensive thing to do and an enormous legacy that we can give to our children for the future. Willie Rennie, and I can give you the time back. We do miss Fagish who is on the education committee with his incisive questions about touch typing. I am sure that the world will hear his plea and will respond appropriately. However, there are powerful forces at play here. We know that we have been trying to get people to not go down the traditional academic route for a number of years, and we have failed really for a number of different reasons. There is significant peer pressure within schools, societal pressure and family pressure in order to aspire to do better. You do not succeed unless you go to university. Pupil choice is an important factor, however. We need to make sure that young people have the choices that are available to meet their needs. Of course, the economic needs have already highlighted the mismatch between those that we are training and the needs of the economy, but we clearly need capacity in the system. Far too few schools have qualified staff who are able to deliver those courses. Sometimes they do not have a local college that they can tap into in terms of the school-college partnerships. They might not have the equipment available and the guidelines are not clear either. Of course, we have the shortage of STEM teachers, which is getting to a crisis point now, as we saw last week with the uptake of young trainee teachers. I think that you are bringing your remarks to a conclusion. Sorry, Mr Kerr. I will not be able to take the intervention. In terms of solutions, I think that Louise Hayward's parody of STEM options is a potential positive way forward. I think that the careers review is a welcome step to have that comprehensive approach to careers, including work experience. I think that that will help. We need to get some clarity for the colleges. I do not know why we are taking so long to give them clear direction with the purpose and principles approach. We have been dithering for ages, likewise with the skills alignment. We should be looking over to countries such as Germany where they have, through their economic strength, a great partnership between industry and the state to make sure that they have a fantastic offer or invocational. Those are the things that we should be looking to, and we should certainly not be complacent, and we certainly should not fill this chamber with congratulatory speeches. Thank you, Mr Rennie. We now move to the open debate. I can advise the chamber that we have got a little bit of time in hand, so anybody taking the intervention should get the time back. I call first Cocab Stewart to be followed by Pam Gosall for around six minutes. I thank the cabinet secretary for bringing this debate today. Hailed among the pioneers of the 21st century learning, Scotland's curriculum for excellence was designed in the wake of extensive public debate, which I remember well as we came towards the end of 5 to 14 curriculum. The aim of providing a holistic approach to education that would equip our young people with the skills needed to flourish in a rapidly changing world. As a teacher, I have often felt and been told that the immense benefits of practical training and skills-based courses are too easily overlooked. A sentiment echoed by Professor Ken Muir in his 2022 report Putting Learners at the Centre. According to college students that were referenced in this report, some vocational routes such as the Duke of Edinburgh were viewed as being for the misbehaving kits and not valued or seen as important, as for example master English. If you weren't taking an exam, then you're looked down upon. These perceptions are changing. Our youngsters are being nurtured and developed as a result of carefully constructed system that takes into account the incredible range of talent we see in our schools, offering opportunities for qualifications across a wide variety of sectors, from financial services, engineering, digital marketing, event management and hospitality. Many courses are available that are industry tailored to prepare students for a successful future in the workforce. Those routes are really important as part of a wider measure to address areas experiencing skills and workforce shortages that my colleagues from across the chamber have mentioned. Ensuring the provision of such courses is also essential to the Scottish Government's long-standing commitment to promoting inclusivity and assisting those most in need, as reflected in their developing the young workforce strategy. Gordon Stobart has highlighted that Scotland's inclusive practices were demonstrated by its early move away from selective to comprehensive schools, meaning that a typical classroom will enjoy and I did enjoy having students from a variety of cultural, social and economic backgrounds, as well as a broad spectrum of interests and attainments. The use of varied formats is key to serving a more diverse student body. Having worked in education previously, I wholeheartedly agree that offering greater choice and learning flexibility remains one of the key effective ways of boosting attainment and reducing wider inequalities. We know and have heard today that a record number of people were in work training, further study or leaving school in 2022. I want to pay particular tribute to two schools in my constituency of Glasgow-Kelving, the Glasgow Gallic School and a Highland Secondary School, both of which achieved 100 per cent positive destinations for senior-phase pupils. The Glasgow Gallic School offers several options for its learners, which start in S4 with part-time placements, working with their three partner colleges. They are also supported by developing the young workforce colleagues, Skills Development Scotland and I also hear from the teachers that there is a great career adviser there as well. The school sites one reason for such achievement on such positive destinations comes from knowing their children and their families and being able to work with them to get the best outcome for each and every one of them as an individual. I would like to put on record my thanks to a strong staff team there at senior phase led by the deputy head, Ms Julie McNeill. A fantastic achievement and accomplishment indeed and a testament to the hard work of pupils and staff following what has been an incredibly difficult and unsettling time. This is not self-congratulatory. This is acknowledging fully and wholeheartedly the hard work of all our teachers that is going on and being cited by my colleagues. I will give way. It's not self-congratulation, co-cab Stewart says, so I'm looking forward to hearing where she feels that we need to do much better, as has been highlighted by a number of speakers in this debate so far. I thank Mr Kerr and I do come on to suggestions that I am happy to push for as well. Of course, there remains much work to be done. I do welcome the cabinet secretary's ambition to continually advance and reform our education programme, as demonstrated by the independent review of qualifications and assessments in Scotland, which began last year. The Hayward review is primarily focused on ensuring that those between 15 and 18 have an enhanced and equal opportunity to demonstrate the breadth, depth and relevance of their learning and aim to provide a new model of qualifications and assessments that is fit for the 21st century. The interim report suggests that a better and more clearly defined integration of academic and vocational qualifications be required with very careful consideration of the language around course descriptors. I believe that if that is adopted, that could go some way towards addressing the challenges that are associated with outdated perceptions and move towards the quest for parity of esteem, as referred to by Ken Muir's report between vocational and academic courses. I am glad to hear the cabinet secretary's commitment to ensure that parity of esteem for all our learners, qualifications and achievement, be at the heart of reforms. We must progress from just valuing what we measure and data to actually measuring what we value. We absolutely value our learners and all that they bring, not only to our economy but also to our society and our culture. I look forward to hearing the progress that has been made on that. In closing, I encourage the Scottish Government to continue to take the pragmatic steps to ensure that all our young people explore and develop their own curiosity, their hopes, skills, interests and, ultimately, find a pathway into employment that works best for them. As a huge advocate for the expansion of technical and professional qualifications in Scotland's secondary schools, I am delighted to be contributing to this debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives. Schemes like developing the young workforce show the considerable merits offered to young people through work-based learning. Nearly all employers in the DYW evaluation emphasised the importance of the development of soft skills that create adaptive learners. Those skills create added value for both learners and employers. I think that we are all in agreement today that this expansion is something that needs to happen. It is just about how we get there. In the Government's own motion, it refers to the close partnership working between schools and colleges in delivering vocational learning and the subsequent pathways into jobs. However, that comes from the same SNP Government that is cutting college funding in real terms. Colleges, unfortunately, still await detail of how they might deploy the non-recurrent 26 million announced in the budget. However, we have all seen reports of the colleges undertaking voluntary redundancy programmes. With fewer lectures comes fewer classes. Therefore, I hope that the Scottish Government will outline how they expect levels of skills and colleges activity to be sustained in that current environment. They should also confirm their position on colleges undertaking compulsory redundancies programmes. Because, unfortunately, that is likely the next step, given that the financial and funding pressures that colleges are facing. I thank the member for giving way. In my contribution, I will talk about the financial challenges of colleges. Did the Conservatives propose any additional cash for colleges during the recent budget? If so, how much and where is the money coming from? Or else it could just be haul rhetoric here this afternoon? I thank the member for his intervention. I think that it is very clear what I was speaking about was the 26 million that you cannot even provide direction for the money that you are actually even giving. That was something that my colleague Michael Marra mentioned as well. It is important that, even if you are just giving that money, you should give some direction to the 26 million. When you are talking about budgets, let us just look for the direction of the money that you have just given. Never mind the money that is needed and the big gap in colleges that colleges are speaking directly to me, and I am sure directly to the cabinet secretary and minister as well. Like Scotland's colleges, employers are fundamental to the delivery of technical and professional qualifications. Many simply do not have the administrative capacity to wade through the hordes of red tape nor the financial leeway to incur the cost associated. One large employer in Glasgow said that it is very heavy admin and not easy to navigate. There are so many hoops to jump through to get funding. In addition to that, the demand for work-based learning and apprenticeships is significantly outpacing SNP Government funding. The Scottish Training Federation and the Construction Industry Training Board are calling for more apprenticeship places. The Scottish Training Federation and the Construction Industry Training Board are calling for more apprenticeship places. The Scottish Training Federation to act by increasing apprenticeship places is particularly important if we want to see all young people offered the same opportunities. One aspect that I wish to draw the Parliament's attention to is the need to support employers. I need to really get on. To need to support employers to provide opportunities for all young people, including those with additional support needs. While that can represent a challenge for both a young person involved and the employer, it can make a true difference in the learner's future. I was also pleased that the parity of esteem for all post-school pathways was mentioned in today's motion. Exposing pupils to a range of pathways is vital to ensuring that no young person is left behind. Last year, when I read the CIPD report on co-overqualifications, I was not surprised that the pupils felt that career services frequently pushed the higher education narrative, with more than half not having been exposed to apprenticeship opportunities. I would like to give a quick example of a real-life personal example for my son. My son was at school a couple of years ago, and he was missing school. He was not enjoying school and he felt that the school was not listening to him. He felt that he did not know where he was going. He left school to go to college without knowing his direction and did not have those pathways explained to him individually for what he was looking for. When he went to college, after a year, he wanted to drop out. He said the words, I thought college was hands-on learning. Only then did I, as a mother, understand that he was looking for an apprenticeship. When I spoke to him, he was very happy to go down the route that he wanted an apprenticeship. When looking at apprenticeships, I offered to help him. My son went out and got his own apprenticeship, woke up at 5am in the morning, took three trains over to his apprenticeship and really, really enjoys it and absolutely loves it, the fact that he is doing mechanical engineering. He talks about it with such passion that that is what he wanted to do. However, my child would have been like many other children and students out there that get left behind because the pathway is not tailored to them. So I am really hoping, Presiding Officer, that today the cabinet secretary and the minister listen to this. It is a personal example that I am giving, but there are many examples out there that I have heard from other people as well. Therefore, I would like to urge the Scottish Government to work with Skills Development Scotland and developing the young workforce to expose young people to alternative pathways, as I have just said. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, the economy has been stagnating for some time in Scotland, and if we want to build a truly dynamic economy, we can no longer accept the status quo. Change requires exposure to technical and professional qualifications weaved throughout the young person's learning journey, a reformed career service tailored uniquely to the needs of a child, more collaboration between further and higher education, as well as the removal of barriers that prevent employers from taking on young people. We have now used up a lot of the time that we had in hand, so any interventions will need to be brief and may not be able to be recompensed entirely. With that, I call Ruth McGuire to be followed by Carol Malkin around six minutes. It is a pleasure to speak to the Government's motion today and recognise the success of the education system in Scotland, not for self-congratulation but for gratitude to teachers, staff, pupils, their parents and families. It is a fact that a record number of our young people are now in work, training or further study after leaving school. 95.7 per cent of school leavers in 2021 and 2022 were progressing their studies or careers within three months, a demonstrable success that we must now build on and strengthen. In preparing for today's debate, I had a wee look back at previous times when we have debated vocational and technical qualifications. In 2018, which was the year of the young people, I welcomed the fact that the headline target of the strategy to reduce youth unemployment by 40 per cent in 2021 had been met four years early. At that point, I noted that although the broad target was met, there was still a bit of work to do on addressing gender imbalance and on improving opportunities and outcomes among particular groups, such as those who are disabled, care-experienced or from minority ethnic backgrounds. I would like to focus my remarks on that today. I was pleased to hear confirmation last week from the First Minister in her answer to my Education and Skills Committee colleague Graham Day that there has been improvements made in attracting disabled young people to apprenticeships, with figures showing that significant progress had been made. Skills development has enhanced funding contributions for disabled apprentices in training until the age of 29. The most recent statistics published by SCS on 14 February report that the disability rate for modern apprenticeships starts by the end of quarter 3, was 14.8 per cent, and 2 per cent is points higher than the quarter three of the previous year. Just under 3,000 individuals had known disability status or self-identified impairment health condition or learning difficulty, which was an increase on the same point last year. It is good, particularly for the individuals who are partaking of the apprenticeships, but there is still a lot more work to be done. I hope that, with continued strong partnership working between employers, schools and universities supported by the developing young workforce groups, that that will continue. I have highlighted this example before, but I will make no apology for doing it again, as it illustrates well that joint working. I think that Stephen Kerl will appreciate this one. Martin and Sun builders are a small family business and co-winning. The owner of the business, Martin, is profoundly deaf after losing his hearing five years ago, and one of the reasons why he was keen to be involved with developing the young workforce Ayrshire was to demonstrate to pupils that it has not stopped him from running a successful business. Martin visited St Winning's primary school for five consecutive days to give each of the five classes an insight into the building trade. Pupils participated in a series of interactive tasks, including using laser levels, sizing, measuring angles and calculating thermal heat loss. The young people were also introduced to bricklaying and watched a live demonstration of a small wall being erected. As well as introducing the pupils to this career area and allowing them the opportunity to engage in interesting hands-on activity, Martin sent a powerful message to those young people about overcoming challenges and achieving success. The Education Committee has been looking at the experience of disabled children and young people and particularly their transitions as part of our scrutiny of Pam Duncan Glancy's private members bill. A recent visit to Ayrshire College, I heard about what successful project search courses they run in collaboration with partners, one at Crosshouse hospital and one at National Trust Scotland. Those courses provide supported learning students with 800 hours of immersion in the facilities of each host business to become work ready. They told me that many students have progressed from the intensive work focus of project search to achieve paid employment. For example, at University Hospital Crosshouse, several learners have completed the course and then been successfully employed, 16 plus hours a week as domestics, porters and admin assistants on-site at the hospital. Other learners have taken up apprenticeship schemes with local authorities in admin, IT and outdoor activities, building on skills first identified during project search. Several learners have also gained employment with other employers out with the host organisation. Employment at retail outlets and supermarkets have helped many of their students gain their first paid work and build resilience to eventually increase their working hours. Ayrshire College currently employs a previous project search student within its canteen facilities as a cook, and it is delighted that that student has maintained that position for several years. At a time when a record high number of young people are now in work, training or further study after leaving school, it is appropriate to celebrate that success, but also to be clear that it is time to build on it for all our young people. We need the talent of every single one of them, not just for them to flourish and have a good experience, but for the success of our country. I say that it was surprising in a month where the Government is using parliamentary time, trying to spin out as many good news stories as possible, that today they have chosen to defend their record on education, particularly vocational and technical qualifications. It is fair that other members have indicated that there are good news stories that we can all individually pick out, but I think that our job in this place is to look at the broad picture across Scotland and be quite real about what is happening for young people. It is more real stories for me. Earlier this month, I met striking teachers from Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders, who made it clear to us as their representatives that the subject choice was narrowing and narrowing quickly. One in attendance told me that because subject choice is so limited in rural areas, her sons cannot study the subjects that will allow them to pursue their future, the one that they would wish to do, so it is her sons who have to adapt, rather than the way that this Government is operating. Scottish Labour, of course, supports the expansion of vocational and technical training, but the reality on the ground in Scotland is that this Government is failing to get the basic things right. It is no longer the case that only choice is limited, but there is now a limiting of opportunity. Where you live and the background you come from now dictates your future when it comes to your health, your access to public services and, deftly, to your education. That, Presiding Officer, is SNP Scotland. That is the record of the last 15 years. The importance of the role that colleges play and the delivery of vocational and technical training cannot be understated, and others have spoken about that. However, as my colleague has mentioned, there is confusion over how colleges can spend their budget allocation for 2023-24, and confusion that again has arisen as a result of a lack of ministerial direction. It is an important point that colleges need some leadership. Any progress made on vocational qualifications is undoubtedly put at risk by a lack of direction provided that the college sector is from Government. That is a risk that Scottish Labour is absolutely not willing to take, and it should be the same for the Government ministers, and they should address that. Therefore, like my colleagues, I encourage the Government to reach out to the college sector and provide that clarity quickly. I would suggest that it might be worthwhile for the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister to consider how the Scottish Government can utilise relations with national health service education Scotland, as Ruth Maguire spoke about in the NHS sector, to ensure that more health-related vocational training becomes available to our young people in the senior phase. I appreciate that there are SPQs available in, for example, dental nursing, but the Scottish Government knows that it can go further, and it should. Many professions are looking for paths to vocational training, and the skilled team at Nes could be a route to pursue that. We are only too well aware of the challenges that our NHS and social care services face in relation to recruitment and retention, perhaps offering more courses that would encourage young people to consider careers in either health or care services would, in the long term, help us to fight those challenges. However, I repeat that the delivery of strong vocational technical training must be widely and importantly equally spread. It cannot be the case that there is a postcode lottery for who vocational and technical training is available to and who it is not. We can, and the point is that we must do better. I do not want to contribute to this debate today without mentioning the role of women in STEM, and the importance of encouraging women and girls to undertake vocational and technical training linked to STEM. In his recent address to the British Computing Society, the minister, Jamie Hepburn, himself admitted that the proportion of digital technology roles held by women is less than a quarter and that a significant pay gap between women and their male counterparts still exists. In fact, if you read the contribution, it is actually shocking the gap. While it is absolutely important that we encourage girls in school to study STEM subjects and take up vocational training in this field, we have to also make the future a more attractive one. Entering a male-dominated field where men are paid more is not an attractive option, and so our approach to expanding vocational and technical training must include a multi-layered approach surrounding pay and future opportunities for young girls and women, only by ensuring that there are equal opportunities in such career paths from the start and throughout where we see parity of esteem between academic and non-academic qualifications. For too long in Scotland, there has been a failure to recognise the importance of vocational qualifications that others have said. We must see greater action in this area. The action must surround tackling barriers related to geography, gender and income. Cabinet Secretary of course was right to say and talk about positive outcomes, but honesty is crucial, absolutely crucial. This is not a time for the Government to stop and pat itself in the back. We have a very long way to go and the challenges facing our education system on this Government's watch are becoming greater. Presiding Officer, genuine reform to the delivery of qualifications would provide opportunities for young people and could provide long-term solutions that address skills shortages in key areas. Thank you, Ms Morgan. I now call Stuart McMillan to be followed by Sue Webber. Around six minutes please, Mr McMillan. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. First of all, I would like to touch upon one point that Stephen Kerr highlighted in his closing remarks. I quote, he did say, his spoken about education system as being worthy of its heritage. I will disagree with Mr Kerr on that, because I am quite sure that if we consider many people who have got dyslexiae generation after generation after generation, where the education system in Scotland failed them, I genuinely cannot accept Mr Kerr's comments about how worthy of its heritage is. I agree that the system does not always live up to its response to people's needs. I was referring to the worldwide reputation that Scotland's education system has enjoyed for generations, which is where it needs to be now. Absolutely, Mr Kerr. I absolutely agree with you on that point. I know that that is what you are talking about and that is what you are referring to. However, as I am a member of the cross-party group of dyslexiae, I have met many constituents who have contacted me and have dealt with them over many years as a parliamentarian, and the education system failed them generation after generation after generation. I genuinely think that there is a bit of an impression that Scotland's education system in the past was that the highest order clearly was not when it failed people with dyslexiae. I want to speak in this debate. Providing a range of technical and vocational opportunities for pupils is something that secondary schools in my constituency are already offering. Before highlighting some local examples, I think that it is important that, as other colleagues from across the chamber have already done, it is to mention how vital technical and vocational qualifications are. They not only provide young people with the opportunity to gain skills through on-the-job training, but they are also an instrumental way for businesses to future proof their workforce. AC White is an outstanding example of how that can be done. AC White is an organisation based in Barth Head, not by constituency, but in 2018 it set up a programme with West College Scotland, whereby it offered training opportunities, and it also guaranteed a job at the end of it if the people fulfilled the full training. That particular programme is still on-going, and I warmly welcome that type of joined-up approach. Just yesterday, I met representatives from Action for Children, who are providing support for young people and their families in Inverclyde across three main areas—criminal justice, employability and wellbeing. They outlined how, by taking a person-centred approach to employability support and focusing on developing relationships with young people, they provide a holistic service that delivers better outcomes. That wraparound service ensures that young people are supported to engage with employability programmes and gain qualifications while completing the unpaid work orders such as a construction skills certification scheme card. That is an industry that has, in recent years, struggled to attract people to the sector, so that shows how the work of Action for Scotland, while primarily being about supporting young people into sustainable employment, can also reap benefits for industry and the economy. Action for Scotland is also an example of how the third sector can help young people and families caught up in the criminal justice system, break that cycle and take a different path. During the meeting, the staff highlighted how the third sector funding of one-year cycles is a challenge in the struggle to plan and to know what services it can deliver in an area long-term, something that Fergus Ewing touched on in his comments earlier. I say that the situation is actually comparable to what third sector organisations supporting people with substance misuse issues previously faced. As we now know, that had cross-part of support across the chamber that Drugs Minister Angela Constance MSP took those concerns on board and delivered multi-year funding opportunities for the third sector working in this area. As Action for Children works with young people who face many barriers to employment, including in some cases substance dependency, I would like to see the funding models that they rely on, such as no one left behind, move to multi-year funding. That would enable the organisation to plan long-term and support more young people in my constituency into sustainable employment through technical and vocational courses. The point of breaking the cycle is hugely important, because one of the points that was highlighted yesterday was that, in respect of us to get the economic situation, it was put to me that 5 per cent is hard to reach of young people. 5 per cent is hard to reach of young people trying to go on to positive outcomes. When there is an economic downturn, when there are economic challenges, 5 per cent increases. The situation only gets worse. If we are to try to get it right to help every single young person, organisations such as Action for Children and other organisations are hugely important in that. The Scottish Government's motion today touches upon this year the development of the young workforce. I also want to put in record my thanks to their west team for all that they are doing in Inverclyde. The Deputy First Minister came to West Scotland in 2019 to congratulate four pupils in Inverclyde academy, who, with the help of the DWP, the DIY West team, took part in the green power challenge earlier that year. That particular programme helped those young individuals with their technical skills, vocational skills, teamwork and working on their own. The four young men went on and they are now working in a positive destination. I was in the school last year and I asked the question to see where they were. I was really pleased to hear that. Here is yet another example of schools, colleges and other organisations working together in partnership to help our community and to help our young people. With that, I am conscious that I am well over my time, so thank you very much. Vocational and technical qualifications are vital to the success of the Scottish economy and the levelling up of every part of Scotland, yet the number of college students has fallen by over 140,000 since the SNP came to power. Under the SNP funding per college student is over two and a half thousand lower than funding per university students. The First Minister said that she wanted to be judged on her education record and, on that basis, she has failed, particularly with a lack of investment in vocational and technical qualifications. There is no doubting the vital role further education plays in supplying Scotland with the steady flow of skilled people essential for a thriving economy. It is not just school leavers, but thousands of older people seeking to re-enter the workforce or retrain something many of us will face in a digital era, which there are no guarantees of our career for life, never mind a job. A full post-pandemic recovery will be impossible without the training offered by Scotland's 26 colleges, yet at a time when we need more qualified workers than ever, student numbers are decreasing. No one underestimates the scale of economic challenges that we are facing. We have soaring food and energy costs, but it is not enough to simply expect Governments to write even bigger checks. In the Scottish college sector, the clear message from the experts is that empowering institutions to work more closely with private enterprise could produce better results and limit the pressure on the public purse than if they were solely reliant on taxpayers' money. Flexibility and industry collaboration are crucial, because that is the best way to keep pace with employer demand, especially in digitally driven workplaces where the rate of change is breakneck. Is the member aware that colleges are entirely able to drive commercial income and raise it through interaction relations with industry, if that is what they want to do? The college regionalisation inquiry report that was published today makes reference to the lack of flexibility in funding and is looking for more funding in flexibility for our college sector. Our committee recognised, going back to the report that was published today, the importance for colleges, students and employers to be able to respond effectively to the needs of the local economy. We believe that it is the responsibility of business and key sectoral bodies to proactively engage with colleges and universities, as that will allow colleges and universities to respond more effectively to help to develop the workforce. However, it acknowledges that the challenges that small and medium-sized enterprises can face if they do not have a sectoral body to help to set out their skills' needs. The committee recommended that colleges must further develop their engagement with local SMEs to take account of their needs, which are very dynamic and changing across the various sectors. Scottish apprenticeship week aims to shine a light on the role that apprenticeships play in Scotland and how they affect people, businesses and the economy. As part of the apprenticeship week last year, I visited Glen Moranje in West Lothian, and this year I visited Livingston Mechanical Services. Those are fantastic businesses with great opportunities for those who want to do apprenticeships. Glen Moranje offered a tailored apprenticeship qualification demonstrating her commitment to the programme and the value it brings to her business, as well as the opportunities that it presents to young people. It offers a balance between learning and hands-on experience within a team environment that nurtures and coaches them throughout the 14-month programme. The apprentices came from various backgrounds, and some had come from school, while others, if I recall rightly, had graduated from university with degrees ranging from English literature for forensic chemistry. Apprenticeships are for everyone. Speaking to those apprentices gave me a real insight into the invaluable opportunity that those positions present to them, earning while they learn and gaining formal qualifications that accelerate their development and create a real spring road for their careers and support our economy. The morning spent at Livingston Mechanical Services was particularly relevant to some of the messages that we continue to hear from businesses and young people. Livingston Mechanical offers apprenticeships in electrical engineering. The apprentices told me of the invaluable insight and experience that they gained from installing EV charging bays at RBS at Gogirburn to the construction and installation of air conditioning units from flat sheet metal. It was quite inspiring. What struck me was how much value the young people place on their opportunity and how committed the businesses that senior leaders were and are to supporting training and retaining those young people in their business. What was of grave concern to me was the route that those young people had taken to get their apprenticeships. I want to caveat that by stating that those were from across many geographical areas—West Lothian, Glasgow and Lanarkshire. Without exception, those young people found out about those invaluable apprenticeships through their own family or social networks. The school career guidance teachers had no role whatsoever at all. I would be a hard place to find anything positive from that part of the conversation with the apprenticeships to share in the chamber today. There is no doubting the vital role further education plays in Scotland, but more must be done. The Scottish Conservatives will restore the excellence in Scottish schools and want more investment in vocational and technical qualifications, so that every child has the chance to succeed no matter what their background is. I now call Bob Doris, to be followed by Daniel Johnson, around six minutes please. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. This is a timely debate that my committee convener Sue Webber illustrated with our committee report on college regionalisation just published today. In the first instance, it is an opportunity to celebrate the increased prominence and the importance of vocational and technical vocation in Scotland's secondary schools. It is important not for self-praise by Government, but to raise the profile, the status and the parity of esteem that members across the chamber want to see for such vocational and technical skills. It is important that we celebrate whether it is a success to make sure that we tackle that status gap and address it, and put a parity of esteem at the heart of what we do in Government. When looking at the impact, we must look at outcomes. Are young people leaving schools equipped to take on the opportunities that exist in the workplace for further learning? Statistics from 2021-22 offer strong evidence of positive outcomes, with 95.7 per cent of those finishing school in that year, progressing their studies or careers within three months of the end of that school year. That strong performance by our young people is an increase on the previous year. I acknowledge Stephen Kerr's point in relation to some of that. I think that we would welcome some longitudinal data in which young people are one, two or three years down the line in relation to that. We can be positive, Mr Kerr, and we will still be challenging about how we can do better. There is lightning shade in the debate, Mr Kerr, and maybe that is something that we are still developing in this chamber, perhaps. It is also hugely encouraging to learn that the gap in securing such positive destinations for those deprived backgrounds is reduced by two thirds since 2009-2010, and it sits at just 4.4 per cent. Of course, our students and our schools must be commended on the success, but we should also commend the role of Scotland's colleges. Indeed, the report from the education committee on which I sit, which we have referred to earlier, just hot off the press published today, is clear about the strong links between colleges and schools. We believe that that has been strengthened in recent years. In John Paul academy, a secondary school in my constituency in Somerston in Maryhill, there is a very good example of that. In its inspection report, which was published just last month from the inspectorate, it says that the school's provisional vocational pathways shows particular strength and gives an appropriately high status to those options. Staff actively promote the wider range of options linked to apprenticeships. They work well with a range of partners to offer relevant vocational pathways. That is a positive impact on those young people who are furthest from the jobs market in living, challenging lifestyles, factual evidence-based good progress and success in our schools. Colleges are key delivery partners with schools in developing young workforce initiatives. Under developing the young workforce foundation apprenticeships, they have been used since 2016 to provide young people with a strong start and a career by providing industry-recognised qualifications and the experience that employers are looking for. Glasgow Kelvin College, based in Springburn, in my constituency, for example, offered the following foundation apprenticeships in civil engineering, mechanical engineering and social services for children and young people in creative and digital media. Would you be able to take the time back? I appreciate the member giving way. He will have heard the calls that I have from colleges in Glasgow regarding the £26 million of funding in the budget. Does he believe that it is incumbent on ministers today to provide clarity as to what that money can be spent on to support the colleges that serve his constituency? Can I say to the member that I have an active engagement on that exact point? I will address that later on in my contribution. I am sure that the key partnership between schools, colleges and businesses underpinned by the support of the Scottish Government is one of the factors that led, for example, to Scotland having a higher employment rate, a lower unemployment rate and a lower inactivity rate for 16 to 24-year-olds in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK. The Scottish Funding Council college principles and senior figures from developing the young workforce have highlighted that as a result of the strengthened relationship between colleges and the local schools. There is now more support available for young people transitioning from schools to colleges. Sir Peter Scott, the former commissioner for fair access, stated that colleges working more closely with schools allow people to combine academic and vocational courses vital in addressing the status issue and the parity of esteem. He went on to say that that could ease the transition from school to post-school further education study and potentially offer students for more socially disadvantaged backgrounds the opportunity to progress into higher education absolutely. We should of course look at the financial position of colleges. We should not deny the financial challenges that Scotland's colleges face. A different budget decision could have been taken, but we should be frank. No one in this chamber, Government or Opposition, suggested a different budgetary path for Scotland's colleges. It would be wrong to suggest otherwise. The additional cash that was identified during the budget process came from Government, not Opposition, and that was an additional £26 million, which the college sector warmly welcomed. However, we need clarity about that £26 million. Will it be embedded into future financial settlements for the sector? That will make a significant difference to choices that colleges make just now as they struggle planning for the following academic year in relation to course provision and student numbers. We need clarity on that, and I am absolutely happy to put that on the record. In relation to the budgetary position again, I would love to have a light and shade discussion in this chamber about how we as a Government and as a society could flex up apprenticeship numbers to respond to the changing business needs and demands within the wider economy. However, that has a budgetary implication. We should not just demand it and not will the cash that falls to support that. I think that there is a lot of great success in relation to vocational and technical education. We should celebrate that, not to praise Government, but praise schools, young people, the students, the colleges and the businesses who are doing outstanding work in difficult decisions. However, if we want to spend more as a Parliament, we have to will where that cash comes from, not just assert it. The subject of vocational education and training is a hot topic everywhere across the world for some very clear reasons. We are in the middle of huge economic change. The need to drive towards net zero means that we need to skill people up with a different set of skills compared to the current workforce. Technology change means that we need to ensure that people in whatever profession, whatever trade they are doing can use technology and computers. Above all else, we are living in an age when we have a declining population, which means that we cannot just afford to sit back and see where people might end up. We need to make sure that every single person is employed using their capacities and their talents to the best of their ability, because we cannot afford to do otherwise. It is not just this, it is why in Denmark, Austria and France across the world we see Governments challenging and asking fundamental questions of their vocational and education training systems. That is why it is not good enough for the Government to come forward with a motion just setting out about what we have done and what is good. We are setting out about the challenges and vision, because no country can afford to do that. The reality is that, across the OECD, 42 per cent of secondary education students are enrolled in vocational education training courses. We have a situation in Scotland where we cannot quite compare the numbers between who is studying vocational courses and nationally-certificated courses. We do not have that clarity. I think that therein lies the problem, therein lies the challenge, because we need a vocational system that is I will have to give away to the minister. So he will share, I hope, my concerns that we know that there are some colleges where the principals are talking about laying off one in four of their lecturers and perhaps even visiging closing down whole departments. That is not the scene that would fit with what he is saying. Daniel Johnson? Absolutely. I would agree with that concern, because very naturally colleges are seen as a hub for vocational learning. We also hear from college of principals what they say to me is that they cannot meet the demand that is being asked by employers, employers coming to them. I think that we do have an issue, but we need a vocational system where we boost uptake, we increase the usefulness of those schemes and we have wider exceptions. We need to start with clarity, because if you look at the SQA website, you look at Government stats, we do not have a clear and comparable basis for looking at the numbers. I think that you almost had that acknowledgement from the cabinet secretary here this afternoon. We saw progress with SCQF putting everything on a common benchmark. What we do not have is the equivalent vocational qualification, so you can point to what is the equivalent to a national 5, the equivalent to a higher, that we all understand and trust. Ultimately, we need to get to a situation where our grannies know and trust and understand what the value of the qualifications that our young people are undertaking. If we look at other countries, we have these clear cuts. We understand that in Switzerland 65 per cent of people go through vocational education training programmes. There are a two-year programme in the main. Others will go through a federal diploma that takes four years, i.e., you understand the system, you can point to the numbers, which is what we cannot do here. However, if we look further at other international comparisons, I think that we see what we need to do. First of all, we need that integration between academic and vocational systems. If we look at France, the French baccalaureate, it is split into three streams. We have an academic, a technical and evocational. That is one of the elements that has been missed in the debate, the difference between technical education and vocational education is one that is completely absent from our debate, but a fundamental one if you listen to the debate in other countries. Secondly, those schemes need to be employer-led. If we look at the Swiss system, that is the fundamental basis that drives its utility and value, both to those participating in those schemes but also the businesses themselves, which is why 26 per cent of businesses in Switzerland take part in apprenticeships compared to 16 per cent in Scotland. I note that the number for the rest of the UK is 19 per cent, something for us to think about. The final point is clear progression into work. While we have made progress through the developing the young workforce programme, through things such as foundation apprenticeships, what we do not have necessarily is that same seamless integration between the different stages of vocational training and into work. What we need is that ability for people to obtain qualifications at school that allow them to immediately access work in a seamless way, in a way that is understood by employers, and indeed I would say led by employers. That is clearly what employers are saying if we listen to things such as the CIPD survey, where 52 per cent are saying that they struggle to get relevant skills and only 20 per cent view schools as being effective. There is clearly a huge need for change. I pose one suggestion. I have already pointed to the French baccalaureate and how it integrates vocational training. Less than around 120 people take the Scottish baccalaureate. It is a feature of the Scottish education system that has been forgotten about. Why couldn't we look at a Scottish baccalaureate, one that integrates both academic learning and vocational learning, one that puts them on a comparable basis, one in which you can study both academic and vocational qualifications at the same time? Ultimately, that is what is important. Both vocational qualifications are being seen as important, robust, rigorous and valuable as academic learning, but vocational learning is being reinforced by academic learning. Ultimately, if you are studying for engineering to be an electrician, you want those people to be studying mathematics and physics, to have the two working hand-in-hand, integrated and sharing not just a quality of esteem but an equality of rigour and, indeed, ultimately value to both business and people learning. I welcome the debate, and I have enjoyed listening to contributions from other members so far this afternoon. The benefits of the Scottish Government's significant investment in young people are evident thanks to the developing the young workforce strategy and the young persons guarantee a record number of 95.7 per cent of school leavers in 2021-22, where progressing their studies or careers within three months of leaving school. Youth employment and vocational qualifications are one part of this Government's strong, demonstrable track record of achievements in education. The record speaks for itself, but today I will focus on vocational qualifications in our rural sector and, indeed, the jobs of the future and the green-skilled jobs that we need to protect our future in terms of the climate emergency. I think that I am the only member to mention rural skills so far this afternoon. Again, Presiding Officer, I think that that is really important. The Scottish Vocational Qualification and Agriculture at SCQF level 5 provides learners with the knowledge and skills that they need for agricultural work with other crops or livestock. The SPQ covers areas such as monitoring and maintaining health, safety and security, developing an awareness of environmental good practice and how to manage and improve the rural business environment. It also includes optional units such as preparing and operating farm vehicles, preparing feed and water supplies for livestock and monitoring and maintaining the healthy growth of crops. Upon successful completion, learners will gain an internationally recognised qualification, which guarantees that they have the knowledge, skills and abilities that are required to carry out their roles successfully. Rural employers will also benefit from their employees being proficient in the skillset that are required. Last year, I joined Tracey McEwen at Tarff Valley at Ringford in the district of Freeson-Galloway and at a dairy farm near Gelston, along with career advisers from the local secondary schools. Tracey and the team explained and demonstrated to the careers advisers what rural employment opportunities are available for young people across from Freeson-Galloway. The feedback from the insight day was extremely valuable. Young people took part in courses such as the one at Tarff that I described and covered a range of mentor-supported topics and complete on-farm direct workplace assessments to show competence in specific tasks. Tarff also offers pre-apprenticeship programmes that allow young people of school age to be supported by a mentor in their placement who will help to prepare them for work. Those apprenticeship programmes are really important in getting people into agriculture, particularly as the sector has an ageing workforce and it is vital for our nation's food security, especially with the current economic and Brexit challenges facing the sector. I therefore ask the cabinet secretary and the minister to always keep rural skills and rural education at the forefront of on-going education and skills work. In turning to green skills, as we continue to recover from the pandemic, we must build a fairer economy that delivers the skills, the opportunities and the jobs for the future that will help to secure our just transition to net zero and tackle the climate emergency. Scotland is already investing in green skills and attracting new green job opportunities. The launch of the green jobs workforce academy is a welcome step in preparing our current and future workforce to seize the opportunities afforded to Scotland as part of the just transition to net zero. The academy, supporting people across multiple locations and online, is guiding people of all ages through a process of identifying the skills that they have and the skills that they will need to find and secure green jobs for the future. I am keen to see that the south of Scotland plays a part in the green skills strategy. Recently, I visited the Scottish Borders College, the Hoyt campus, where I saw first hand the work that it is doing to support people into green skills jobs but also to upskill those already in the sector. The college is leading vocational courses on building properties to passive house standard, on installing ground source heat pumps, on electric charging infrastructure and on solar panel installation and repair. However, one of the limitations that the college relayed to me is that the funding model to get those courses up and running is restrictive and, if the college wanted to offer those courses to those in school, the funding would not support it. Therefore, I asked the minister in his closing if he would be open to meeting with me and the Borders College to discuss the specific funding issues that were highlighted at my visit last Monday. I would also be remiss not to mention the work of Dumfries and Galloway College. Strunrar and Dumfries campuses both are supporting green skills, particularly in the winter by an engineering sector, and I commend their work that they are taking forward. I know that I could probably expand a little, but I prepared a shorter speech this afternoon expecting that some folk would intervene, especially because I am the only person who is talking about rural skills, which are absolutely a necessity and important for us in Scotland. A brief intervention, Ms Galloway. I thank Emma Harper for giving way. She spoke a lot about positive destinations and I am just wondering if the member agrees with me that positive destinations should be measured over a longer time than 12 months, particularly when we are looking at rural and jobs affecting climate change in our environment. I thank Megan Gallacher for that intervention. It is really important that we gather data in many different ways, so 12 months plus longer term would be valuable. I think that it is really useful that we explore how we manage the data and then what we do with it. Finally, Presiding Officer, I realise that I am soon out of time that the Scottish Government has succeeded in meeting its goal to reduce youth unemployment by 40 per cent after actively pursuing the DIY youth employment strategy. Building on that, the Scottish Government is continuing to expand opportunities available to young people. I repeat that agriculture and green skills have an absolutely crucial role to play here. We will now move to closing speeches, and I call on Martin Whitfield to wind up on behalf of Scottish Labour around six minutes, please. I am very grateful, Presiding Officer. It is a pleasure to close this debate on behalf of Scottish Labour, who, like I think all across this chamber and indeed across Scotland, the United Kingdom and indeed the world, support the expansion of vocational and technical education in school settings. It is common sense. If we look far to our past way before even Scottish education was heralded as great in the world, the idea of vocational training for a young person lay at the crux of what their childhood was actually about. It is right that we serve all of our children, those people who want to pursue an academic future, but also those who want to pursue a vocational and indeed a technical future. We should trust the choices that our young people make, and we should allow them to grow up in an environment where they have those choices, where they can see them, where they can dream about a better future that fits in with what they want. From that very powerful discussion from Pam Gossel about her own experience with her son, about someone being able, at last, to communicate to adults the sort of learning they want to do so that they can have the sort of future they want, was incredibly powerful to hear, and I compliment her and her son on sharing that. Of all of the discussion that has been very wide-ranging today, I think that that speaks to what vocational training should be for our young people. However, how have we got to where we are today in a debate that, interestingly, has strayed far away from our secondary schools and the vocational training that is available there through apprenticeships? Apprenticeship last week indeed into our colleges and back to our colleges and to our colleges again and rightly so. However, it is interesting to look at where we are. If we start with the Muir report, which of course talked and sought answers with regard to our whole education system and the evidence that he received that there is confidence in the curriculum for excellence up until that senior phase. Actually, it is the great unanswered part of curriculum for excellence from when it first came in that we never really addressed the senior phase because perhaps it was too great of a challenge or perhaps it goes to the lack of parity of esteem for those who want to do vocational training as compared to those who want to pursue an academic path forward. Mr Whitfield, under the Labour Party of some sympathy, including in the curriculum in Scotland, the extension of the universal provision preferably of the skill of touch typing to our children in schools, is that something that the Labour Party may wish to espouse? I am very grateful to Fergus Ewing for that intervention and he spoils the fact that I in fact was going to make reference to his intervention during the main debate to share with him my belief that touch typing skills, like many of those fundamental skills, should be available to our young people to make their future easier. I move quickly to the Haywood review merely for comment about the senior phase leaving certificate that has been raised in the interim report, but also that which has been echoed by a number of people here today about a better and more clearly defined integration of academic and vocational qualifications. I think it speaks volumes to the language of vocational training. The granny test I think is Daniel Johnson so aptly put it, that actually if your granny doesn't understand what you're doing you know she might not put your beans on for when you get home, but if she does she will push you, she will get you out of bed to get you out of school to your vocational training and I think we are still a long way from a true understanding across all of our communities about the vocational training, the language we use and the opportunities that are available to our young people. It would be remiss of me not to mention Willie Rennie given that I was going to use that as my link into your intervention Mr Ewing, but I think it is right to say that this debate shouldn't just be about self-congratulation and there is a desperate need for better data as to where our young people are going rather than a snapshot three months after they depart school, because I am aware admittedly on a subjective basis of young people who perhaps not long after that three month snapshot found themselves unemployed and in difficult challenging positions and actually sought support back from the school which they tried to give but was out with their requirement which is disappointing. I've mentioned Pam Gosol because she did rightly mention the 26 million that has come into so many people's speeches about colleges and it would be nice to know whether or not they can spend it and what they can spend it on. I would also like to raise the input from Ruth Maguire about the debate in 2018 and the work with regard to gender balance and other groups and I think that speaks a lot to what we have heard particularly Stuart MacMillan and I would like to echo his comments about those that suffer from dyslexia and the challenge that they have but also to our disabled both visible and invisible disability and the need for our pathways to work for every young person in Scotland. It's right to mention Carol Mocken as I do because of the narrowing of the choices that are available to our young people and I think that that is a reality that I think it would be helpful if this Government would admit because all of the evidence is suggesting that in our schools that serve our poorer communities the choices that are available are smaller than those in other areas and to Emma Harper as time is tight I will say that I haven't been trockied with this debate at all it's been a great pleasure to read your email for the use of scots and I thought it would be worthy to put it on the record but you are right to speak about our agricultural vocational training and the huge value that is across not just the south of Scotland but indeed large areas of Scotland because the great value of vocational training is we can offer to our young people what our young people want what our young people imagine and it can't be beyond the wit of this place and this government to actually address those needs in the years to come. Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you Mr Whitfield. I now call on Megan Gallagher to wind up on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives around seven minutes please Ms Gallagher. Thank you Presiding Officer. As a Scottish Conservative I believe in aspiration but aspiration can only be achieved when governments provide people with the tools to succeed in life. My own education journey hits speed bump after speed bump and at some points I thought about giving up completely. When I was at school there wasn't a proper support network or careers advice and that resulted in many young people in my hometown falling through the cracks in the education system and I could have been one of them. For a high school pupil in the mid-2000s not achieving a space at university was a sign of failure. There were never really a mention or focus on vocational and technical qualifications and if you said you wanted to go to college it was because you were not intelligent enough to go to university. The truth is I had no idea what I wanted to do when I was in sixth year and combined that with the stigma around non-academical subjects I lost interest in schooling during my senior years. This resulted in me not obtaining the grades that I should have and becoming one of the few Scots who have repeated their final year of high school. I ended up going to university as that was the done thing not because it was right for me. Things did turn out okay but for some of my friends and people I went to school with it led to them dropping out of university. There was no support and no clear pathway for them but that is why I am pleased that I am able to close today's debate on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives not just because I was nearly someone who fell through the cracks but because this government needs to do more to support our young people. We need to keep telling our young people that there is no wrong path and that success should not be measured by the number of degrees you have obtained. Professor Hayward's interim report has been referenced a few times today and I do welcome the outward thinking to get our young people engaged in choosing their own future. I apologise if this is a tangent but I think that the question is not whether or not your vocational or university education is actually one of the things that we need to challenge our universities to ensure that they deliver skills and can demonstrate their vocational relevance regardless of what subject you do. I couldn't agree more with Daniel Johnson and I think that's incumbent in all of us to make sure that we are challenging that narrative in our universities. When we actually look at the expansion, if you let me make some progress I'll come back to you. When looking at the expansion of vocational and technical qualifications we need to understand the current environment for a young people for a young people experience. They are up against nearly 1,000 schools not being inspected, 140,000 fewer college places, knowledge that they are worth nearly £2,500 less if they go to college rather than university and other widening attainment gap between the poorest and richest pupils and 1,699 fewer teacher. Those are the reasons why young people fall through the gaps. I'm happy to give way. Thank Megan Gallacher for taking the intervention when she touched upon her own experience. I'm a wee bit older than Megan Gallacher I would imagine but certainly people of my generation growing up in the 1980s. There were no opportunities for people by way of apprenticeships in the west coast of Scotland because the apprenticeship schemes had been scrapped and jobs had been lost so the only offer for many people was to attempt to get to university. Does Megan Gallacher agree with that? I'm not going to disagree with that at all because there is a different career path for everybody and I think we can all understand that there are challenges that young people face while growing up but, as we've heard today from Sue Weber, for example, from Pam Gossel, apprenticeships, as it stands just now, are a challenge for young people to get into and it's only when they are reaching out to their friends and family that they can access an apprenticeship. We need to look at the overall picture and I gave my experience because that was just one of many experiences in terms of a young person's experience as they go through the education system. This Government needs to do more to provide the tools for young people to succeed. The cabinet secretary began her contribution by congratulating the successes of our young people, which we will all applaud, but I don't think that she mentioned those achievements were made in spite of the problems within our education system and that the Government has presided over those issues over the last 15 years. My colleague Stephen Kerr rightly pointed out the many challenges that this Parliament faces to ensure that our young people flourish and he's right because we need the talent and that must be addressed by attracting people into our education sector to inspire the next generation. Michael Marra spoke about the broadening of subject choice for young people, stating that the stakes have never been higher for many young people trying to enter college or university. Yes, happy to give way. She's very generous in giving way. Does Megan Gallacher agree with me that the challenges that young people meet could well be addressed by extending the skills that they can acquire to those of being able to touch type, which is so useful across a whole range of things? Is the Conservative party, like the Labour party, attracted towards this policy? Megan Gallacher, you've ruined the punchline for my colleague over in the Labour bench. She's now ruined it for me, but we absolutely support your cause. We'll back your mission to make sure that that's seen as a core skill. I understand that time is ticking away, so if members can forgive me for not taking any more interventions just so I can get a couple of more points in. Sue Webber mentioned people who choose to enter education later in life and the challenges they face when looking to find a career or job. They need support from this Government too. Pam Gossel mentioned her son and his experience of finding a pathway that works for him. I'm really pleased that he managed to find the apprenticeship that was right for him, but, as we've spoken about so frequently today, too many people are falling through the cracks because they're not being able to be signposted to the right place for support. Before I conclude, I want to raise the issue of how positive destinations are recorded. I can completely understand why positive destinations are recorded, but it is a huge but. It only records data within the first three months of leaving and then 12 months after leaving. In 2020-21, 71% of school leavers looked after within the last year, but a positive follow-up destination down from 86% in a positive initial destination. We know that that was a decrease, but I have no idea of the journey for those young people thereafter. There is no concrete data as it stands. Therefore, I would be grateful if the minister could expand on this during his closing contribution and explain why the Government only focuses on the first year at present. As always, with education-related debates, it has been a lively afternoon with many passionate contributions made, but the reality is that, while we talk about the expansion of vocational and technical qualifications in Scotland's secondary schools, there will be young people facing an uncertain future as they approach their final exams. I will end by challenging the next Government. Backer young people by making sure that they have the tools to succeed in life. Backer young people by putting their priorities first and proving to them that, regardless of whatever they want to do in life, the Government will support them. I call on Jamie Hepburn Minister to wind up the debate on behalf of the Scottish Government, and if the minister could take us to decision time, that would be much appreciated. I welcome the contributions that have been made. I pre-empt Fergus Ewing's impending intervention to say that the Scottish Government recognises the importance of touch typing. In terms of the tone of the debate, I mean, there was a purpose to be preempting the intervention, but why not? Fergus Ewing? Well, generous as always, I commend two maxims to the minister. First, if you can't beat them, join them. Second, it's better to jump rather than be pushed. In that spirit, can I put this very kindly, would the Scottish Government be willing to reconsider its current approach, which appears to be not actively to advance the universal extension of touch typing skills to all children in our schools? The member will be aware that we don't have a set curriculum, but I'm sure that teachers, the length and breadth of the country will be interested in his perspective as to the advantages of touch typing. Returning to the debate, Presiding Officer, in terms of the tone of the debate, let me first of all say that I recognise that it is entirely incumbent on Opposition members to raise concerns, entirely fair and right to raise concerns. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that there aren't challenges with another education system that's incumbent upon us to recognise and respond to, but part of the purpose of today's debate and there is something to be said for having a debate explicitly to celebrate the achievements of young people in Scotland. In that sense, we've heard some of that, but I think not enough of that over the course of today's debate. If I could say to Mr Rennie—he got off to a good start when he mentioned that he visits the schools in his constituency, but I didn't hear one word, not a single utterance from him, about the achievements within those schools. Not once did I hear it from Mr Rennie. Nothing specific about specific achievements in the area of vocational and technical qualification. Of course, I could read it. I can deliver my whole speech again, if the minister would like, but I hear cries of yes. There isn't any time, Mr Rennie. But I have repeatedly praised my local schools and the contribution they make, and I refer to that in my contribution as well. However, this chamber is about change and improvement. I just wish that the Government would do a little bit more of that. Well, maybe what I should have said is that I didn't think that Mr Rennie got the balance quite right, and that's my perspective on the matter. I think that it is important for us to place the debate in the context that we have. Let me first of all say that we have heard from members about the importance of technical qualifications. However, I agree, and I think that there has been a sense that there is sometimes a false distinction drawn between the pursuit of supposed academic qualification against the pursuit of supposed vocational education. In that sense, I think that the messaging that we send out from here is important, because we should be pressing the issue of parity of esteem for multiple purposes so that we know that the various options and their increased range of options—I'll come to that in a minute—are the range of options that young people have in school. None is any better than the other. They are all good options for young people to pursue. In that sense, I thought the point that was made by Bob Doris that the message that we send out over the course of this debate is an important one as well. We have to make sure that we are sending out that message very loudly, very clearly, so that there is parity of esteem across the provision of our education system. I am very grateful to the minister for that. I wonder whether he would agree with the insight then that the comparison with France, where we have complete integration, is one that we need to aspire to. We have vocational qualifications where we can point to the equivalent of a higher that is vocational qualities. That is what will ultimately deliver that parity of esteem and understanding. We have that in our system just now. Of course that Louise Hayward is looking at more activities in this regard, but we look at foundation apprentices, for example. They are set at SCQF level 6 just the same way as a higher. There is the ability to look across and compare. That regard allows me to make the very point about the progress that we have made. I take the point that was made again by Mr Johnson that other countries in OECD have a much higher proportion of vocational provision in their school system. If you look at the journey that we have been on, we have made tremendous progress. If you look at 2013-14, there were only 7.3 per cent of vocational technical qualifications at SCQF level 5 and above being provided in schools. In 2021-22, that was 27.2 per cent. That is significant progress, and that is something that I think each and every one of us should welcome. I will give way very briefly to Mr Kerr. On the basis of what the minister is saying, why is it that we do not spend every penny of the apprenticeship levy that comes to Scotland? Why do not we spend every penny of that money on apprenticeships? Why is there a cap on apprenticeships? When everyone is saying in industry that the cap is too low, why does not the minister respond and raise the limits? The first thing that I would say is that we do not have the precise site on the manner in which the apprenticeship levy is raised. It was introduced by the UK Government and not by the Scottish Government, so I could not earnestly tell you the global sum that we would have at our disposal because we do not collect it, but it would also fundamentally alter the provision of our skills system. I know that Mr Kerr was not elected at this time, but when the levy was introduced as unwelcome as it was by those who had to pay it, it set us not to spend it all in its entirety on the provision of apprenticeships and to have more plurality of provision. However, if you want to talk about apprenticeship numbers, I am happy to reflect on the last five-year period. Yes, certainly we have some way to go back through Covid disruption, but if you look at five years ago, there were 27,422 apprenticeship starts. In 2122 we were down to 26,567. We will be up again this year. That was a 3.2 per cent drop. If you look at what happened in England under the Conservative tenure, I say that Mr Kerr is not interested in that, but I am interested in that because it is about the apprenticeship levy raised by the UK Government for the express purposes of their policy of increasing the number of apprenticeships in England. If you look at that same period of time, there was a 7.1 per cent decline in the number of apprentices in England. Let me turn to colleges and their interaction with schools because they play a vital role in the provision of interaction for senior-phase pupils in terms of technical and vocational level qualifications. I am pleased to see the range of activity that happens across Scotland's colleges in that regard. There was made mention of the additional funding that we have provided. That will be provided to colleges in the usual fashion through budget allocations by SFC. There has been dialogue between SFC. As you would expect and the college sector, we asked them to undertake that work, and that will become clearer in short order. I say to Emma Harper that I will not give way to Mr Marra because I am feeling petty and immature and he did not give way to me on two occasions, so I will carry on with what I am going to say. Emma Harper might have asked me the wrong week to visit the board committee meeting the boarders college, but I am happy to either commit for me or my successor to meet with her. Let me also reflect the fact that we heard from many members around the range of activity that we see in Scotland's schools. I am pleased to be able to see when I have been out about visit Robin High School in January and saw a first-class provision of vocational learning. Tomorrow I will be going to the developing young workforce, Edinburgh Roadshow, where schools from across the city will be attending to see some of that activity. Just this morning, I was at Gorgie Mills in ASN school in Edinburgh, where they are undertaking activity related to making sure that their young people are better prepared for the world of work. That is what we should be talking about. There is excellence in our education system in terms of the developing young workforce approach in terms of promoting and advancing the provision of technical qualifications. At the end of the day, that is what we should be focused on. I want to finish with one message. There should be no wrong path for young people in our country. Irrespective of what their preferred end destination must be, it is incumbent on us to make sure that we do everything that we can to support them. That is exactly what this Government has committed to and will remain committed to, to make sure that our young people have the best chance of life here. That concludes the debate on expansion of vocational and technical qualifications in Scotland's secondary schools. It is now time to move on to the next item of business. There are three questions to be put. On 16 March, the Deputy First Minister announced yet another delay of an additional six months to both vessels 801 and 802. However, the Deputy First Minister said that the ferries would be handed over to CalMac in autumn 23 and autumn 24. He chose his words carefully because handed over, of course, does not mean operational. I pressed this specific point and he said that he was unable to answer, leaving CalMac to confirm that they would not be operational for a further two to three months. Now, Presiding Officer, you have said that members, as a matter of respect to each other, should answer questions truthfully. It is clear that the Deputy First Minister, by refusing to answer the question that I asked, was hiding the fact that he knew that ferries would not be operational for another two to three months after the dates that he had given. Presiding Officer, I seek your advice on how a member can get honest and fulsome answers when it is clear that some ministers are not showing the chamber the respect that you have asked them to. Thank you, Mr Mountain, for his point of order. The Scottish Ministerial Code states that it is of paramount importance that ministers give full and accurate information to the Parliament, correcting any inadvertent factual errors at the earliest opportunity. Where a minister is not in a position to provide an answer at that point with regards to a question put to them, it is acceptable to offer to follow that up with information in writing. If a member has a question about the factual accuracy of another member's contribution, they should raise it directly with the member in the first instance. I know that the member will be aware that the Parliament has a procedure and how that operates. We will continue on to the point of order, Rachael Hamilton. I seek your guidance. This afternoon, Minister McCallan misled Scotland's coastal communities. The existing network of marine protected areas covers approximately 37 per cent of Scotland's seas. The Greens and SNP through their Butehouse agreement intended to designate 10 per cent of Scottish seas as highly protected marine areas. At least part of the 10 per cent will be over and above the 30 per cent already designated as marine protected areas. In comparison, the EU's approach is designating strictly protected areas within the 30 per cent already designated as MPAs. No other EU country has implemented HPMAs to the extent of the proposal from the Greens and SNP. There is no evidence to demonstrate that they will achieve their aims. Minister McCallan is being disingenuous when she states that Scotland is in line with the EU, and this matters, Presiding Officer, because fragile rural communities are under threat once again, just like they were during the Clyde Codpox debacle. It is no good throwing around this inaccurate data that undermines the seriousness of this unevidence policy from the SNP and the Green Government and ignores the concerns of stakeholders and coastal communities. I regret, Presiding Officer, that this is becoming a regular occurrence, with SNP ministers frequently misleading this chamber. I would appreciate your advice on this very serious matter. As I have previously drawn members' attention to, there is a mechanism that exists by which those who have provided information on the record have an opportunity to correct that information if they believe that there is a factual error existing. The member has had an opportunity to raise that with the chamber, and those points therefore are recorded. I will move on now to decision time. There are three questions to be put as a result of today's business. The first is that amendment 8291.2, in the name of Stephen Kerr, seeks to amend motion 8291, in the name of Shirley-Anne Somerville, on expansion of vocational and technical qualifications in Scotland's secondary schools, be agreed. Are we all agreed? The Parliament is not agreed, therefore we will move to a vote, and there will be a short suspension until our members to access digital voting.