 I call on Alison Johnstone to speak to you and move the motion. I am proud to lead a debate calling for greater recognition and support for all those who provide care, whether by working in our overstrict social care sector or providing unpaid care, and commit to the principle that high-quality social care should ultimately be free at the point of use. I thank all those who have provided well-evidence briefings and the young and adult carers and staff who shared their experiences with me when I visited the Edinburgh young carers project this morning. The introduction of free personal care for the elderly has rightly been regarded as a success, providing greater security and dignity to elderly people across Scotland. Truly a case where Scotland has led by example. In previous debates in this Parliament, we have heard that social care charges for those under the age of 65 put people under financial strain and limit independence. The Scottish Greens fundamentally believe that social care is essential to people's health, dignity and control. Recently, the Scottish Government has committed to making social care at home free for those in the last six months of a terminal progressive illness. There have also been proposals to make social care free for all those with conditions like dementia and other degenerative neurological conditions. I applaud all the campaigners, charities and constituents who have pressed hard for these changes, not least Amanda Coupill, who is campaigning for Frank's law, and we cannot fail to pay tribute to Gordon Aikman, whose contribution can't be overestimated. Those are positive steps, but in the long term we must be wary of moving towards a situation where our entitlement to free social care is based on a particular medical diagnosis. Many people believe that this is discriminatory and can't be justified. If you need the care, then you need the care and it shouldn't matter what condition you have or what age you are. That's why the Scottish Greens believe that we must commit to funding high-quality social care that's ultimately free at the point of use for all, regardless of age or medical condition. We know that the Scottish Government has commissioned a feasibility study on extending free personal care to under 65s, initially for people with dementia, but extended to consider all conditions. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport previously told us that she'd be happy to use that study as the focal point for cross-party discussions on extending free personal care to under 65s. I would ask the Government to update us on the progressive study and tell us when it will share its findings. It's time for those discussions on progressive changes to social care policy to begin and the Government to make clear its position on the abolition of all social care charges. The integration of health and social care strengthens the case for moving towards a truly cohesive health and social care system that is free at all points of use. However, the debate is about unpaid carers too. According to Carers Scotland, unpaid carers save the Scottish economy £10.8 billion every year, close to the cost of providing NHS services in Scotland. Three out of five of us will become carers at some stage in our lives, but the value of what carers do is not recognised. Nobody should face poverty because of the care that they give, but research by Carers Scotland shows that a third of carers struggle to pay utility bills, 47 per cent have been in debt, half struggle just to make ends meet. Carers UK Caring and Family Finances inquiry found that, on average, carers lose £20,000 a year by choosing to care, and around 35 per cent of carers who care for more than 25 hours a week are in poverty. The cost of caring goes on because of lost earnings and lost opportunities to build up pension contributions. One of the young adult carers I met this morning had to turn down a university offer due to caring, another had lost a job due to caring responsibilities, so the impact of caring on earnings is very clear. The Government made a manifesto commitment to increase carers allowance to the same level as job seekers allowance, and the Government has been reviewing the financial implications of topping up carers allowance. We cannot allow support for carers to be delayed or reduced, so I invite the Government to make their plans to deliver this manifesto promise clear. I also believe that this top-up does not go far enough. Bringing carers allowance into line with job seekers allowance does not provide recognition of the vital work that carers do, and that is why the Scottish Greens campaign to lift carers allowance by 50 per cent to £93.15 a week. We want to secure a fair settlement with the UK Government and local authorities so that no increase in allowance will interfere with the payment of other benefits or increase any carer charges that people currently pay. We also believe that there should be a premium for those who care for more than one person. The Government intends to increase carers allowance for those caring for more than one disabled child, and today I urge them to take a broader view and consider everyone who cares for more than one person, no matter what age they are. I am glad that the Government has agreed to consider introducing some form of young carers allowance because we must provide better support for young carers and young adult carers. There are at least 29,000 young carers in Scotland with significant practical or emotional caring responsibilities. The demands of caring can have a detrimental impact on young people's mental health, on their educational attainment and on their overall wellbeing. There is also strong evidence that the most financially vulnerable young people are disproportionately likely to have caring responsibilities. Recent research for the Children and Young People's Commissioner indicates that 27 per cent of young carers come from the 15 per cent most deprived areas of Scotland. The carers trust stress that young carers are always children first and foremost. We should minimise their practical caring responsibilities wherever possible and provide additional support in a way that prioritises their education and personal development. The carers act is a good step forward. There was broad cross-party support for this important piece of legislation, including carers entitlement to support and respite on a statutory footing, and regardless of age, the importance of access to respite and the positive impact that respite has cannot be overstated. We have a duty to make sure that those rights are delivered in practice. Many people do not realise that they are in fact carers and do not know that they are eligible for support. I also want to call attention to the role employers can play in supporting carers. Struggling work and providing care is tough. All too often, it gets too much. The organisation employers for carers points out that there are real costs for companies when they lose staff due to their caring responsibilities. As our population ages, we need to develop more forward-thinking employment policies, making paid leave for carers widely available. So far, only five employers in Scotland have been awarded exemplary status by Carers Scotland. The power company Centrica is the only one in the private sector, and it is clear that employers of all kinds have a way to go. I will now turn to the need to strengthen pay and conditions in the social care sector. The Government's commitment to pay social care staff the living wage was welcome, and I am glad that the Government has extended that commitment to personal assistance and social care workers in day centres. I am concerned, and I welcome the cabinet secretary of ministers' clarification on that, that there is no guarantee that social care staff working with children are entitled to the living wage. However, the living wage does not reflect the incredible value of this work, its emotional demands, the deep commitment carers bring to every care visit and every home by every bed site. Scottish Care's report, Trees That Bend in the Wind, provides an insight into the challenging role of social care staff who support people with progressive illnesses or people who need palliative care. Not only do they deliver increasingly complex care for the most vulnerable, but many have direct experiences of being by people's sides as they die. They are a vital support for bereaved families, and they have to manage feelings of loss themselves, yet social care staff are not afforded the recognition that they deserve. That is why the Scottish Greens want to pay all social care staff a living wage plus of £9.20 an hour. If we are serious about building a sustainable, compassionate social care system, pay for staff must reflect that. I believe that it is the Government's long-term goal that sleepovers are paid at the living wage and it would be helpful if we could hear about a timescale for achieving that. I have heard from constituents working in social care that they are still not fairly paid for all the time spent travelling between shifts, or for all the handover shifts they do. Appropriate pay and better working conditions are badly needed to help us to recruit social care staff and to retain people with that experience. Good pay progression and training opportunities for people working in more senior roles are essential. Roles in social care should be seen as positions to aspire to. Carers should have more opportunities to specialise in particular forms of care and to work collaboratively with other health and social care professionals. Carers and third sector organisations have told me that they are not adequately represented on integrated joint boards. There needs to be more joint planning across the whole sector to ensure greater stability, and many of us will be aware of the worrying example in Cercwbry, where a private sector provider pulled out of providing day care services in a care home, leaving service users with nowhere to turn. They were able to exit this contract with 90 days notice. It is wholly inappropriate that crucial services can be pulled away like this. Nursing vacancies in our care homes are incredibly high, up to 28 per cent of posts are vacant. In the past, NHS workforce planning has not reflected the need to fill posts across the social care sector, too. I hope that the new national health and social care workforce plan will change that, because we really need more stability, especially when Brexit could throw this already precarious sector into jeopardy. Immigrants make a huge contribution to our social care sector. We must protect their rights to live and to work here. Nor can we forget the need to improve the conditions and pay for all the other staff, the cleaners, the cooks who support the social care sector. It could not function without them. Presiding Officer, without carers, the independence and quality of life of many is diminished. Human rights are not realised. Without carers, the burden on our national health service becomes even greater. Few jobs are more important. Let's make it clear that we understand that by making sure carers and all who work in the care sector have the recognition and the support they deserve. I move the motion in my name. I move amendment 5312.2. I am pleased to be taking part in this debate, raising important issues. The Government's vision of a healthier, fairer and wealthier Scotland places a preventative person-centred and community-led approach to improving people's lives at its heart. Members agree that all our citizens, including children and young people, deserve good quality and efficient health and social care services, but we are aware of the challenges. People living longer is a success story, but as the population ages, the scale and complexity of demand for health and social care support is growing. Those changes mean that delivering services in the same way as has been done in the past is not sustainable. Radical service redesign, including the integration of health and social care, is required to meet those challenges. It is not just the ageing population that presents a challenge. 47 per cent of unpaid carers in the most deprived areas of Scotland care for 35 hours a week or more. If not appropriately supported, such high intensity caring can lead to increased social isolation and add to pressures both on the carers' finances and on their health and wellbeing too. It is clear to me that we must do more towards tackling inequalities experienced by carers in these areas while supporting the whole population with their health and social care needs. Against the background of challenges, we are also continuing to make progress in improving the fairness of the system of charging for social care. Most recently, we provided local authorities with £5 million to enable them to exempt veterans' war pension payments from social care financial assessments from 1 April this year. Our next step is to undertake a feasibility study into the extension of free personal care to those under 65 building on the calls for France law. I would also pay tribute to the work of Amanda Copill and others. Alison Johnstone asked for an update. Discussions are underway and indeed officials are meeting Scotland against the care tax just next week as part of a wider engagement with stakeholders as we take that work forward. We have already raised the threshold for charging which we estimated would result in around 15,000 people paying fewer charges or being taken out of charging completely. As Alison Johnstone herself said, we have ended charging for those who are terminally ill in the last six months of life. This is a busy week for social security. Tomorrow, the Minister for Social Security will make an announcement to the Parliament on the Scottish Social Security Agency. Today, the focus is on carers and rightly so. We are already committed to increasing carers allowance to the same level as jobseekers allowance over recent months. We have heard directly from carers, including young carers, about their day-to-day challenges and their experience of social security. Some are well supported, but others face challenges to their health and wellbeing and, indeed, their education. I want to see a Scotland where all of our young people can reach their full potential, including young carers. This Government is happy to work with any social security ideas that improve the law of the people of Scotland. I am pleased to report that we are making good progress in our commitment, initiated by the Green Party, to explore the introduction of a young carers allowance for young people with significant caring responsibilities. Officials across the Government have engaged with a wide range of representative organisations to identify gaps and opportunities within the current support landscape for young carers. As the chamber will be aware, the carers act comes into force next April and establishes new duties to provide support and information to adult carers and to young carers. New adult carers support plans and young carers statements will capture the support needs of carers, helping them to realise their personal outcomes to ensure that they can continue to care if they so wish, and helping to improve their own health and wellbeing. That depends on meaningful conversations with carers of all ages. It is our ambition that children and young people are better supported to help realise their own aspirations, including in work or in education. The carers act does not sit in isolation, but within the wider health and social care landscape, the new integrated health and social care partnerships are responsible for managing more than £8 billion of resources that NHS boards and local authorities previously managed separately. Planning, designing and commissioning services in a more integrated way from a single budget allows partnerships to take a more joined-up approach, enabling resources to be shifted based on local priorities to target preventive activity. In the coming year, there will be almost half a billion pounds of additional investment in social care and integration transferred from the NHS. We will continue to shift the balance of care by increasing the share of the NHS budget dedicated to primary, community and social care in every year of this Parliament. Within the resource announced by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Constitution for 2017-18, we have made available £100 million to support sustainability in the care sector and the continued delivery of the living wage. The continued investment enables the real living wage, as is set by the independent living wage foundation, to be paid on a full-year basis and at the new rate of £8.45 per hour from next week. We will give up to 40,000 people a well-deserved pay rise, mainly women, doing some of the most valuable work in Scotland. Last month, we will also provide local authorities with additional funding to extend payment of the living wage to all childcare staff, delivering the funded early learning and childcare entitlement from the full roll-out of the 1,140 hours in 2020. Up to 8,000 staff in the private and third sectors will benefit from this uplift. That helps us to continue our work, raising the status and image of social care as a profession to help attract and retain the right people, which is central to our vision for social services in Scotland. That is something that we all agree is of vital importance, particularly in the context of the challenges posed by the prospect of Brexit. We know that if Scotland loses access to the single market due to Brexit and with it the freedom of movement, that could pose a serious recruitment challenge for social care. Yes, of course. Miles Briggs. That will also be paid the living wage. The focus has been on those workers delivering social care. That has been a very unusual step to have a Government putting public money into essentially private sector organisations. That does not happen for any other sector. Tens of millions of pounds have gone in to private sector organisations to help them deliver the living wage. As Miles Briggs will appreciate, that has focused on those who are delivering the social care to service users. It is of course for employers in terms of any consequential knock-on effect to terms and conditions of their other staff to address that as part of their business delivery. It is quite right that our focus has been on social care staff given that it is from public money. We need to make sure that that delivers as much social care retention and recruitment as possible. As part of our efforts to raise the status of social care, we are making important progress towards social care being a regulated profession. To maintain registration staff must continually update their skills and knowledge. That approach will continue to improve the delivery of social services and protect service users through competent, confident and skilled workforce. Aileen Campbell will address the issue of sleepovers because I realise that I have not got time to do that, so Aileen Campbell will do that in her closing remarks. I thank Alison Johnstone for bringing forward this motion and to move the amendment in my name. Thank you, cabinet secretary. I now call on Annie Wells to speak to you and move amendment 5312.1. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am pleased to have the opportunity to pay my gratitude to the hundreds of thousands of social work staff members and unpaid carers who work tirelessly to support children and adults in need or at risk in Scotland. Social care is an umbrella term for social work, personal care protection or social support services for those in need or at risk, whether that arises from illness, disability, old age or poverty has changed for the better over the past 50 years. As I am sure that we will all agree on today, health, dignity and control should always be at the centre of social care policy. We are moving in the right direction despite the fundamental concerns called and I will expand upon later. Beginning with the whole-scale transformation of social care for those with learning disabilities support has shifted away from institutionalisation towards promoting independence in community-based settings. This move is still under way for health patients and I welcome the progress being made to support people away from hospital and in truly person-centred surroundings. The benefits of this process are unquestionable and we hope that this will be extended even further through self-directed support legislation that aims to give people control over their own support. After the social care self-directed support act came into force three years ago, obliging local authorities to offer people eligible for social care a range of choices over how they receive their support. People are now assessed and a budget is awarded to meet their support needs. Service users now have four choices to either take a direct payment a cash payment for them to purchase support directly to choose a provider but have the council hold the budget to have the council arrange their full support, the supporting fill or a mixture of the previous three. As I have said, the benefits of this person-centred care are dramatic. I recently had the chance to speak to someone who worked for a social care provider and was able to recite accounts reinforcing that opinion. One gentleman who moved to supported living from hospital would always leave his lights on. Not because he was incapable but because he had lived in the hospital for most of his life where nurses switched the lights on and off forum. Another instance was a woman who loath showering due to a hospital ritual whereby every morning she would be forced to shower straight away following horrific nightmares. Moving out of hospital and the freedom nurse gave her to choose whenever she wanted to shower, followed by a more soothing after ritual of a coffee and a cigarette to help calm her down meant that she was able to overcome this fear. Those were both mental health patients who had lost all sense of independence and were well hospitalised for such a long time. To his life's wear improved dramatically by being offered choices and dedicated to personalised support. Despite those positive steps however, I would like to point out the concerns that many of us share. There are grave issues when it comes to recruitment and retention something my colleague Donald Cameron will go on to talk about in more detail. There are fundamental issues when it comes to staff numbers and working conditions. We do have an ageing social care workforce with ever-increasing workloads and we need to provide the conditions and career opportunities in this sector that will support those people. I'm grateful to the member for giving way. She recognises the importance of this work as well as the challenges of recruitment and retention. Why then does the Tory amendment delete any reference to either the green proposition for a living wage plus or even the real living wage itself? Why isn't a decent wage a reasonable recompense for this important work? Before I call to respond to that Ms Wells just to say that there's time in hand for all members who want to make interventions of this debate so we can be quite generous Ms Wells. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think that we can all agree that it is a good thing but there are problems with its implementation as well. Providers are struggling to cover the increased costs and it doesn't seem to have had an impact on the recruitment quite yet. There are still major issues on recruitment and retention. We need to look at how best to improve such aspects of free personal care. Something my colleague Miles Briggs has campaigned on tirelessly as well as supporting Frank's law which would see free personal care being extended to dementia patients under the age of 65. I would also like to bring attention to reports by Age Scotland this week that over 8,500 elderly people a year are missing out in free personal care, as Alison Johnson had mentioned. That is because of delays in assessment and care arrangements. Underpinning all of those concerns however it is important to highlight the Audit Scotland report last year which described the current model of care as unsustainable. Owing to demographic change the increasingly complex demands for care and policy commitment such as living wage it is estimated that in addition to the annual billing hitting over £3 billion in Scotland spending will also need to increase by 21 per cent by 2020 unless new models of care are brought in. That is monumental and we need to have serious discussions now on how best to develop new models of care fit for the future and furthermore whilst the integration of health and social care is certainly a set in the right direction we need to do our utmost to make sure that communication channels are adequate for this formally integrated system. Despite a proper assessment having not yet taken place the professionals are telling us that there are issues and we need to take action. To conclude today I would also like to reiterate my support for the work of social care workers and unpaid carers who support the hundreds of thousands of people in need across Scotland. Health, dignity and the ability to control one's own support should always be at the heart of any policy and I am pleased to see that Scotland is making inroads with that regard. The issues underlying unpaid carers and social work staff however are still there. The carers bill which comes into force next year will make further progress in supporting unpaid carers who are often under recognised. Their work is absolutely vital and alleviates huge amounts of pressure on social care services but they need to be supported themselves. My colleagues, Graham Simpson, Brian Wharton will be talking more detail on that during this debate. I move the amendment to my name. Thank you very much, Ms Wells. I call Colin Smyth to speak to and move. Amendment 5212.3 Mr Smyth, a generous six minutes which means that you have got more than six minutes. Thank you very much indeed, Presiding Officer. Can I refer members to my register of interests where it states that I am a local councillor and I was previously employed by Parkinson's UK. It is a privilege to open this debate on carers and social care on behalf of Labour, a debate that we very much welcome. The provision of social care in Scotland has changed rapidly over the last few years. The early days of this Parliament introduced landmark legislation such as free personal care for the over 65s but with the introduction of self-directed support, the integration of health and social care and the introduction of legislation to support carers, the way social care is delivered will unquestionably change even further in the years ahead. A greater level of personalisation and the principles of pooled budgets and strategic commissioning across health and social care will become more embedded. It will be wrong to think that this is an area of public policy that is secure and cohesive. Far from it, Scotland's population will change in the next 15 years with a projected 86 per cent increase in those aged 75 years and over between 2012 and 2037 and a 151 per cent increase in the population aged 85 years and over. With that change, the balance between the tax base and demand for services will also change. The working population will become smaller and the need for care will grow larger all under the current backdrop of austerity. We are seeing more people living with long-term conditions like dementia, greater numbers with physical health problems caused by Scotland's obesity crisis, a rise in the number of cancer diagnoses and more people than ever before living with multiple conditions. Whatever else will change in the provision of health and social care over the next few years, those trends will require a significant increase in investment. Part of that investment will need to be directed towards the social care workforce to deal with the current recruitment and retention crisis that we face. As someone who was instrumental in ensuring that my own council became the first council in Scotland to gain living wage accreditation and who proposed that the living wage be paid to adult social care workers I very much welcome the introduction of the living wage for adult social care workers from October last year and I welcome the commitment to extend this to childcare workers in the private and third sector delivering childcare on behalf of local authorities. But there is still unfinished business. Six months since the introduction of the living wage, no deal has yet been agreed for so-called sleep over shifts so carers providing overnight support do not receive the living wage. I therefore look forward to the minister updating Parliament on this matter when she sums up at the end. We need to build on living wage by not only having fair pay but by ensuring that all care staff are paid for travel costs and travel time, no one working in social care is left on a zero-hour contract and our social care workforce are provided with adequate training and the time to care. Indeed, I commend unison's ethical care charter as a template for the fair and ethical employment practices we would all like to see. We also have to ensure that a proper career structure is developed for those choosing to work in social care that connects to professional occupations such as nursing or social work. Equally unpaid carers must be properly recognised as partners in the provision of support. Those carers are the unsung heroes of our country. There are nearly three quarters of a million adult carers in Scotland and nearly 30,000 young carers dedicating their lives to caring for others and in doing so, as Alison Johnson pointed out, saving the Scottish economy £10.8 billion a year because of their selfless care and attention. Yet Carers Scotland recently reported that a third of those carers are struggling to pay utility bills. 47 per cent have been in debt and half are struggling to make ends meet, cutting back on food and heating as a result. Bringing carers allowance in line with job seekers allowance would increase a carers income by £600 a year. We had the power to deliver the increase last September and in March new powers to overhaul carers and disability benefits were devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Those new powers give us the chance to build a truly fairer Scotland but we need to move past the worn words of support and onto real action. Again, when someone up, I hope the minister will give those carers the certainty and respect they deserve by telling Parliament when the Government will actually bring forward plans as well as a better deal for those who provide care, we need one for those who receive that care. It is now 14 years since the last Labour-led Government introduced free personal and nursing care to everyone over the age of 65. Today in Scotland around 77,000 older people benefit from that policy. However, to use the words on the frank laws campaign website, no disability, illness, condition or disease waits until a person reaches the age of 65 and then strikes. Across Scotland, 90,000 people are living with dementia and not all of them are over the age of 65. In fact, more than 3,000 are under the age of 65. If any of those 3,000 people require personal care, as we all know, they are financially assessed by the local authority to determine whether they should make a financial contribution towards that care. Where they live often depends how much they pay. It is the same for other long-term conditions including motor neuron disease, Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, cancer and many others. In our election manifesto, Scottish Labour made a commitment to work towards the abolition of such care charges for all those under the age of 65. To go beyond frank's law, and I reiterate that commitment again today. Presiding Officer, I began my speech by saying that health and social care will require a significant increase in investment. That means an end to cuts to local councils. Over £1.5 billion has been cut from council budgets since 2011 by the Scottish Government. The consequence is a social care system already under pressure without the growing demand that we know is on its way. Last week, Age Scotland revealed that over 8,500 people a year in Scotland wait longer than six weeks for a care assessment. Scottish Care Survey showed that three quarters of care homes have vacancies for staff and 90 per cent of care at home and house and support services had positions lying empty. Since the health secretary promised to eradicate delayed discharge in May 2015, 680 people have died in hospital while waiting to be discharged. We need to stop the cuts to local councils now, all of them, not just some of them. This Parliament can do that. We have the powers to make different choices to be progressive, to say that if we want decent social care we need to fund it properly. That means being honest with the public so that the broadest shoulders will have to pay more to fund that extra social care. I therefore move the amendment in my name. Thank you very much, Mr Smith. We now move to the open debate. We have time in hand. As I have said, I call James Dornan to be followed by Graham Simpson. Mr Dornan, please. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. There can hardly be a job that is more important than providing care for our most vulnerable members of society. It is adaptable and committed workforce in the country with a complex role that requires a wealth of knowledge. A home carer may be asked to work with children, those with a disability and, of course, to assist her elderly. I have recently read a carer's post on Facebook, which went viral. Facebook is an online thing, that people contact each other through. I do not think that I would antagonise me so early into your speech. I can be vindict. I hope that you are commenting. I think that it sums up the feeling outlined in this debate. The post was actually from a carer in England, but carers from all over England, Northern Ireland, Wales and, of course, Scotland commented on how accurate the post was and how they could resonate with this lady. Jessica Gentry said, quote, she looked for signs of a stroke and waited in an ambulance, gave out 15 lots of medication, supported relatives, made 25 cups of tea, locked 17 doors, checked food supplies, reassured patients with dementia. The list continued. When I saw this post shared by carers in my constituency and across Scotland, I was deeply touched by it, and to be frank, once again, and all of the amazing work these people commit themselves to so diligently. If my relative was in need of care, I would hope that they would receive the best care we were able to provide in order for us to provide a full and comprehensive care package to those most in need, then we must support those carers who are at the front line when it comes to provision. Recently, I had a meeting with home carers in my constituency. Their passionate, committed group of carers determined to do the best for those they care for, but they are also determined to make sure that they get a real fair deal. After that meeting, I prompted me to ask a question of the Government and the question was to ask the Scottish Government what action it can take to ensure that local authorities should meet their moral and legal obligations in settling equal pay claims and what discussions it has had with Glasgow City Council regarding that. This extremely hard-working and committed group of carers were being treated as if they were less than equal to men. I go on to talk about gardeners and gravediggers that work for the council and are completely accepted that they do a very difficult job, but they are graded higher than people who do some of the most difficult jobs in society and certainly some of the most important jobs that were placed into an arms-length body a number of years ago. Many of those involved in equal pay fight claim that this was Glasgow City Council's way of excluding those carers in the fight for equality and pay. If that was the case, then I can say that the council has been unsuccessful as the home carers have become an integral part of the equal pay movement and are determined to get what is rightfully theirs. I spoke to Mark Irvine, who is one of the leading advocates for this campaign and he told me that part of the problem was that the carers are providing a Cinderella service and that they do not have a traditional place of work which makes it harder for them to bring together involved parties such as outside bodies, family members and of course the client requiring care. As the demanding carers seem to be getting greater, it seems like authorities such as Glasgow are more and more resistant to matching demands with resources. Studies done by campaign groups show that home carers are still not paid as well as the more traditional male council roles that I mentioned earlier on. Not only is this grossly unfair, it is not conducive to providing the best possible care for those who need it most. It is more than clear that these carers deserve the best support, pay and recognition that authorities have to offer. At that point I want to go back to the answer that Annie Wells gave to Patrick Harvie. If it is not about pay that you want to attract carers in, if it is not about pay and it is not about conditions what is it that you think that you can make more attractive to make people become carers if you do not think that they should be entitled to the living wage? Why did you vote against that £100 million that could have made it more attractive for people to become carers if you think that we need to and we clearly do, if you think that we need to attract them? I am more than happy to take an intervention if you have a lot of response to that. Can I remind a member not to use term U but the member's name? This is for the official report. I was addressing that to Annie Wells, who is the most attractive MP for the Glasgow region. That is just a wee bit cheeky and you are on the... No. Sit down, Mr Dornan. You are just verging with a wee bit cheeky with me and it is not going down well with me. Presiding Officer, you did ask me to identify her. While discussing care, it would be wrong of me not to mention those home carers who are not employed by a governing body but do it because they are a family member, friend or partner. Many people are unable to seek employment because they are committed to the care of a loved one, which is not only a vocation but a role that takes considerable strain of local authorities and organisations. Young carers and my constituency are among some of the most remarkable young people I have ever had the privilege of meeting. They often do a job beyond their years while at the same time trying to study and plan for their own future. That is why I am thrilled that the Scottish Government is looking at young carers allowance. Another way of ensuring both the care for young people and young carers is to select it that was in 2007 as a councillor. My very first official duty was to attend Glasgow South East carers and it was an event on young carers. I just never had a clue. I honestly was completely blown away by what these young people had to do and the responsibilities that were placed on them. The way that they stood up to these challenges they just took it on their shoulders and at the same time we are looking to better their lives. I am really pleased to see that the Scottish Government are doing all they can to make sure that these young people will benefit and be able to go on and complete their education and hopefully do whatever they want to do with their lives. As has been mentioned already the Government has already committed to taking carers allowance up to the level of jobseekers allowance which would mean that carers would receive £100 a year at an 18 per cent rise. The Tory cuts to disability benefits has had a catastrophic effect in many of those in Scotland who should be being looked after and protected by the system the most. In order for the Scottish Government to be able to do this properly they have to continue with appropriate consultation and I look forward to seeing this being passed as legislation after it follows proper parliamentary procedure. I have to take Colin Smyth up on his point there. The Opposition must know fine well that the Scottish Government has to do this in consultation with the DWP they already know that they are in that process and they already know that until such times as there has been an agreement with the DWP for that to be rolled out then it becomes very difficult to do so so you cannot ask for a date whilst we are already in the process of trying to get the procedures in place. I did see a dig by one of Mr Smyth's colleagues and even times earlier this year and he seemed to be keen to criticise a Government that is committed to getting it right when it comes to all the new powers. However, I would agree with Mr Sarwan on one quote when he said that carers are the unsung heroes of our communities. Thousands of people dedicate their lives to caring for others and save the Government, especially our NHS and social care system, thousands of pounds because of their selfless care and attention. I should probably then challenge him on this because if he feels so strongly about carers what would the carers who are paid by Glasgow City Council and are being treated with what seems to me like complete social pay. When we stand up for carers we must stand up for all of them because no one role is worth more than the other. Be it private, be it kinship carers, be it third sector organisations and many more who are ensuring the most vulnerable in our community are not only looked after but continue to play a worthy and functioning part of that fairer Scotland which we all seek. Thank you. Can I, first of all, thank the Greens for bringing this issue to Parliament? It's important that we discuss social care and carers. It's an issue that affects people directly and will continue to impact on them when the Carers Scotland Act comes into force next year. Deputy Presiding Officer, one in six of Scotland's population is an unpaid carer. There are 750,000 carers in Scotland and there are 759,000 adult carers and 29,000 young carers. In 20 years there could be a million carers in Scotland. Those are extraordinary statistics but carers do what they do not for money but for love. Many of us in this chamber could either be a carer, become a carer, know a carer or at some point in our lives need a carer. It's important that those selfless people looking after others are given the rights and entitlements that flow from the act such as the right to support if they qualify. It's also vital that sufficient resources are available to fully implement the new duties. The problem is that we don't know with any degree of certainty what it will cost. What we can be certain of is that the majority of costs, 94%, will fall and most of us here know have seen year-on-year cuts in budgets from the Scottish Government. First, I'll talk about that broad financial scenario around social care before coming back to carers themselves. Audit Scotland said last year that current approaches to delivering social work services will not be sustainable in the long term. There are clear risks that reducing costs further could affect the quality of services. It's pretty obvious too that if the SNP's squeeze on councils continues, then some could simply change the rules on eligibility to make sure fewer carers qualify for help. A well-meaning act of this Parliament could end up with a worse situation. Minister. Thank you. The member was articulating a case that services require more investment. I think that this Government has given a very fair settlement to local government, but what is his views on the fact that this Government has to spend £100 million mitigating the worst impacts of welfare reforms that his party and Westminster has put on Scotland? Mr Simpson. The impact on councils comes from the Government's given to councils and that has been cut year on year and that affects carers. The number of adults in need of care is expected to increase 30 per cent in under 10 years. That could place an intolerable strain on carers with many simply giving up. With social care already struggling to cope with £1.1 billion of cuts between 2010 and 2015, councils will find it increasingly difficult to find adequate resources to support carers and their families. Funding for social care is in crisis and the Scottish Government has to do something about it, not just now. There are huge challenges. As Audit Scotland said, social work departments are facing significant challenges because of a combination of financial pressures caused by real terms, reduction in overall council spending, demographic change and the cost of implementing new legislation and policies. If councils and IJBs continue to provide services in the same way, we have estimated that these changes will require council's social work spending to increase by between £510 million and £667 million by 2020. The member on three occasions has said that he thinks that local government should get more money. Can he say how much more money and where that money has to come from? Graham Simpson. The cabinet secretary knows that this is a matter of choice and her Government has taken the choice year on year to cut councils' budgets. That is a choice. You have chosen to penalise councils across this country. On to carers themselves, Deputy Presiding Officer. There is a financial impact on you if you become a carer. A third of carers are struggling to pay utility bills. 47 per cent have been in debt and half are struggling to make ends meet. They cut back on essentials like food and heating. The main carers benefit is worth just £62.10 for a minimum of 35 hours a week. Yet their value to us all is huge. In 2015, a carers UK report estimated that the value of carers contributions in Scotland was £10.8 billion. In the Scottish Conservative 2016 manifesto we called for carers allowance to be aligned with job seekers allowance benefiting over 60,000 people. That is something that carers Scotland agrees with. I thank them for their useful briefing ahead of this debate. Many carers find that their career and promotion opportunities are affected that they have to reduce hours or give up work altogether. Carers who have given up work to care also find it difficult to return to the workplace. Almost a third have been out of the workplace for 10 years or more. A quarter of carers not currently in work say they would like to return to work and almost two thirds would like to when their caring role has ended. Carers care and we should care for them. They deserve a break now and then providing short break opportunities for carers and those who they care for is vital but the availability and choice of short breaks across Scotland for them varies considerably. There is no evidence of significant cuts to existing levels of service provision. I would like to close by quoting from a briefing sent in by Marie Curie which I think sums it up. Caring for those with long-term illness and coming to the end of life can be all-encompassing. Carers face increasing demands and challenges on their time as the condition of the person they care for deteriorates. Many carers of people with a terminal illness cannot see themselves as carers but simply as people looking after loved ones. Deputy Presiding Officer, they deserve our full support. Thank you very much. Mr Simpson, I call Kate Forbes. We are followed by Mark Ruskell. A person far better and wiser than I am said that the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members. In today's debate I will push that further to say how we support those who care for our most vulnerable who give so much of their time, energy and care to those who need it most. How we support carers demonstrates how much we value our most vulnerable. For too long carers have been undersupported, undervalued and underpaid and that is a poor indictment on how we have cared for those who care underpaid carers. My two sisters currently work as carers and I am absolutely in awe of their hard work. I remember last summer after I was first selected being asked by a friend how busy I was as I stood next to my sister who had been doing 12-hour shifts of back-breaking, emotionally intensive and pressurised work and thinking ask her, she's the hero here. And then last Sunday getting ready to go to my nice warm bed my other sister was travelling across Edinburgh at 10pm to do a sleepover which probably had very little to do with sleep. So I think my sisters are pretty incredible. But I respect them even more for the work they do for the sake of others. It's not easy but it's of enormous value. My sisters and every other carer in Scotland paid and unpaid are absolutely brilliant. But whilst I'm sure our rhetoric is caring and supportive it's our actions that really count and that's why it's not just unfair that support in the form of the carers allowance is the lowest of all working age benefits. It demonstrates that our actions have fallen seriously short of caring for carers and I'm really pleased that when our government gets the power to do so we will increase carers allowance. And I'm pleased that the Scottish Government will also allocate an additional £100 million for the continued delivery of the living wage for adult care workers and sustainability in the sector at large. My hope is that this attracts more people into this vitally important role of caring and sends a message to current carers that they are greatly valued and we could not do without them. I hope it further raises the status and image of social care as a profession too. Lack of carers is certainly a challenge in the Highlands as we've seen recently in the news as the Haven care home in Uig announced it was closing due to a difficulty in finding carers and that is a challenge for other residential care homes too who find it harder particularly in the Highlands in rural smaller areas where it's harder with fewer beds to make ends meet. The challenge is then also for elderly people who have to move sometimes quite a distance away from home perhaps from a partner who may or may not be able to travel and visit. Attracting and retaining the right people in the right places goes right to the heart of how we treat people with dignity, respect and fairness when they need care, wherever they live. Delivering community-based services through the integration of health and social care means that rural residents can get the care and support they need and stay in their home homes for longer and that takes on greater importance in the rural Highlands. For those who are caring in the community there are other challenges not least travelling many miles in one day and so support for carers should recognise those added pressures of working in rural areas if we are to recruit enough carers to care for those who need it in the Highlands. Carers are each unique and they meet the unique needs of those for whom they care. Almost one in five of Scotland's adult population are carers and there are almost 30,000 young carers under 16 according to Carers Scotland which is 4 per cent of the population under 16 and that does not include the hidden carers, those who have not been identified and are not being supported by services. For young paid carers their caring role is usually an extension of their love for family, friends and neighbours but there are still the sleepless nights the heavy physical work the potential for loneliness and isolation and the unlikelihood of a break or a holiday and on top of that perhaps a full-time job or full-time studies the struggle to pay utility bills or food. For young carers there are real challenges in continuing with education in school, college or university and it's important that we do everything that we can to support these young people so that they don't lose out due to the demands of their caring role and that's why the Scottish Government has funded the college development network to design and deliver an online resource for learners with caring responsibilities and whilst we do not collect annual data on the number of young carers in the study an action planning tool is available to help colleges improve identification and meet the needs of student carers so that we can support carers as much as possible. With the devolution of more social security powers it is so important that we don't just look at those who are receiving the care but how we support those who are delivering the care and I'm very proud to be part of a Parliament that is putting dignity respect and fairness at the very heart of how we care for those who need care and how we care for those who are delivering care. Thank you. Thank you very much in those forms. Mark Ruskell was followed by Donald Cameron. Mr Ruskell, please. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I declare an interest as a councillor probably for the final time and can I also declare the financial contribution that I made of my final year of council salary on carers, a wonderful organisation that supports the lives of young people who cope with the most unimaginable level of responsibility in their lives. Alison Johnstone told us earlier in the debate that unpaid carers could save the Scottish economy £10.8 billion every year. The carers allowance makes a small recognition of the value of unpaid care work but it's paid at far too lower rate and is subject to a set of hugely complex costs. Based on caring for no less than 35 hours a week at current rates, this equates to £1.70 an hour but this drops to just pennies if carers are providing 24-7 care. No wonder many carers describe being insulted by the level of carers allowance that they receive. I very much welcome the Scottish Government's plans to raise the value of the benefit to match jobseekers allowance at £73 but JSA is intended for a short-term payment and around 90% of claimants claim for only a matter of months. Recipients of carers allowance tend to claim for many years and incur a range of additional costs in the course of caring. Carers allowance, which is formally only intended to replace income loss through not being able to work does not reflect this. For these reasons, the Green Holyrood manifesto pledged to increase carers allowance by 50% to £93. I would encourage the Scottish Government to consider a two-part benefit advocated by Carers Scotland, among others, that would replace lost income and cover additional costs with a premium for those caring for more than one person. That is not the only change needed. Carers allowance is riddled with complexities and unfairnesses. For example, if a person is paid carers allowance, the person they care for would lose their severe disability premium in their applicable amount of access to benefits. That means that it may not always be financially worthwhile for a carer to claim. That partly explains the low take-up that we have. Ensuring that the Scottish carers allowance does not count as income when assessing benefits and care charges would help enormously. I would now like to turn to the important role of the waged care sector and the contribution made by dedicated workers to the daily care of tens of thousands of people across Scotland. A few short years ago, we saw much criticism of the state of home care services across the UK. But there was little, if any, consideration of the experiences of those working in the sector. To better understand these experiences, Unison launched a major survey of care workers and a report entitled Time to Care. What Time to Care revealed was a shocking state of the sector with poor pay and working conditions driving down the morale of a dedicated but downtrodden workforce. Four out of five workers experienced what is called call cramming where appointments were stacked with not enough time to meet clients' needs or to even factor in travel from one appointment to the next. The frustration and shame of workers being forced to leave clients before their needs had been met was leading many to just selflessly support clients in their own unpaid time. The survey found that over half of workers were not paid between visits, potentially breaching minimum wage laws, while over half of workers' wages varied between the basic minimum wage and only £8 an hour. Many saw the impacts on their clients as they switched from one worker to another, causing distress, particularly amongst those with dementia. It added to a lack of formal routes to report concerns with clients, little training on specific medical conditions and a lack of contact time between fellow co-workers. It is understandable why recruitment and retention was a major problem. For many, a job in the supermarket was better paid with better terms and conditions. On the back of time to care, Unison launched the ethical care charter for councils to sign up to, setting a new minimum baseline for the safety, quality and dignity of care, recognising that to deliver better services, we need more sustainable pay, conditions and training for workers. The Scottish Government has, of course, moved on the living wage element of ensuring that budget is delivered to support adult social care workers at the Scottish living wage since last year. However, there are still questions about whether those working in child social care are getting the living wage as well. I am hearing repeated anecdotal evidence around the doors that some care workers are not receiving the living wage. With concerns about the lack of contract monitoring of some councils, I have been closing to address that point directly. The full ethical care charter needs to be implemented by every council in Scotland. I congratulate North Ayrshire, North Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire councils who have signed. I pushed the charter hard in my own council in Stirling and while it has stopped short of signing up in full, it is 95 per cent of the way there with the remaining legacy contracts being addressed in the months ahead. The needs of clients first and the way services are timed and delivered while supporting the training and support of care workers matters. Applying a decent living wage of 9.20 an hour, ensuring sick pay and an end-to-zero contracts and unpaid travel time builds a workforce who are respected and valued for the incredible work that they do. Presiding Officer, our carers both waged and unwaged are unsung heroes. I thank the members in this chamber and in council chambers across Scotland. Thank you very much. Mr Ruskell called Donald Cameron. Followed by Bob Dorris, Mr Cameron. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. This has been an extremely interesting debate. I am delighted to be able to contribute on what is a significant and highly important matter. I would like to begin by joining others in this chamber who have paid tribute to those who currently work in care, those in the social care sector for loved ones, often unpaid and thankless, but do so because of their love and commitment to the person they care for. It is absolutely right that we dedicate a parliamentary debate to carers and the role they play in Scotland. I commend the Scottish Green Party, although our amendment takes a different tack. There is much that we can agree on. This type of debate may be technical at times, but there is always a real person that our actions affect, whether that be a care worker, a young person caring for their parent or a vulnerable child. It is, of course, MS Awareness Week. Carers play a huge role in caring for those with MS, and I would like to draw attention to George Adam's member's debate, which follows decision time. I look forward to participating in that, and I hope that many others do too. I want to focus on social care in particular. I will cover an area that has come under close scrutiny for some time, which is the retention and recruitment of staff. It is pertinent across Scotland, but I am presenting a particularly rural area. I am acutely aware of the issues around needing to find car drivers for carers issues about travelling to and from employment during working hours, sleepovers, and the pressure on keeping remote and rural care homes open. Kate Forbes has mentioned one, but I feel that I have to mention Ock and Lee in Campbelltown and Struan Lodge in Dynun, which I recently visited and met with staff there. Just this month on staffing, the Herald newspaper ran a story on research carried out by the voice of the independent care sector, Scottish Care, which found that more than three quarters of care homes have unfilled staff vacancies, and that nine in 10 care at home services say that they have difficulty in filling positions. That should not come as a surprise to those of us who are members of the Health and Sport Committee last September, who heard representatives from the care sector give evidence, as well as from carers themselves. I want to touch on a few of the issues that are vitally important that we take on board the opinions of those who work in care and those who represent the workforce. Donald MacAskill, who is the chief executive of Scottish Care, spoke about the difficulty in recruiting new staff due to the fact that many individuals do not find working with people in care attractive, and that society and Scotland as a whole does not value those who work in caring for whole people. There is a shortage of nurses in care homes and the vacancy rates there. Given the large proportion of care provided by the independent care sector on behalf of local authorities, this is highly concerning. Annie Garner Logan from the Coalition of Care and Support Providers in Scotland argued that the way that care is currently being delivered in Scotland is not sustainable. She was critical of workforce planning and the way that care is procured by care providers. We plan ahead on the basis of existing framework contracts which she says means that they have no sense of the number of people they might have to support in the future or the number of hours of support that they might have to provide. It is clear from this evidence that working in care is often seen as unattractive and given the issues that this raises for both the workforce and indeed care providers we see a system that is in many ways unworkable and unmanageable. An interesting point, and others have made it that Annie Garner Logan made reference to was a claim that it would not be much longer before every single school leaver would have to go into the care sector if it was to be kept afloat. That's a startling and worrying claim. Similarly, the evidence presented in committee last September suggested that 60,000 new social care workers are required to meet the demands of an ageing population. That also is particularly stark. It is true to say that staffing cuts across both the independent and public care social care sector. I would like to move on to staff morale. A survey carried out by the institute for research and innovation in social services shows not only that it is the workforce ageing and increasingly ageing but there is an increasingly overburdened workforce. 62 per cent of care has said that they had to do additional work most weeks in almost nine in ten so they have seen a reduction in the support available to service users. Unlike others across this chamber in layman's terms, those on the ground have less time to do what they do best which is caring for some of the most vulnerable people in our society. As one carer put it in a survey, staff are pushed more and more and more. Carers Scotland noted that 80 per cent of carers feel that their own personal health is worse because of their job and the fact that the current average rate of staff turnover sits at 22 per cent is clear that there is a major problem that requires solutions. Having been in this chamber for almost a year now a large part of my debating time has been about highlighting the staff in crisis across the NHS but also the social care sector. Recruitment and retention has been highlighted time and time again by professional bodies and in the health committee that the Welsh Government urgently needs to put a plan in place to deal with this. In conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, it is clear that we need to make care a more attractive career option and break down the barriers that stop people entering the profession. We need to listen to the professionals more now than ever as to why these problems have persisted and are now becoming increasingly exacerbated. Above all, we have an opportunity in this Parliament to set social care on the right footing so that it can operate to the benefit of staff and, most importantly, the person they care for. Thank you very much, Mr Cameron. I call Bob Doris. We follow by Alec Cole-Hamilton. Mr Doris, please. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. In the motion before us and in the Scottish Government amendment Brexit is mentioned. Your microphone, please. Yeah, hopefully that's okay now. In the motion before us in the Scottish Government amendment Brexit is mentioned in the local government and community committee which I convene heard serious concerns in relation to the potential impact of Brexit on carers and social care. We conducted a number of evidence sessions and heard from various organisations including COSLA and the STUC. It can be difficult as we have heard it can be difficult to recruit and retain staff within social care and to have the staff view it as a first choice career of significant value to society. Carers in the social care sector are worth their weight in gold but they're not always paid their weight in gold that's for sure and I've heard some concerns over that today. That's why the move towards the real living wage is a significant move forward by the Scottish Government underpin by £125 million of funding. It's wonderful that there's aspirations to go further but let's put on record that fantastic success achieved in that context. We view Brexit with associates the concerns over the end of freedom of movement of people particularly in key sectors such as social care and let me tell you what Helen Martin of the STUC said in evidence. She said in local government one of the key areas that are at risk is social care and which many foreign nationals work it is potentially of particular risk of not being able to fill roles if we do not have access to EU labour and the Conservatives themselves spoke about the staff crisis in social care yet they're stymying one of our biggest sources of quality labour to meet the need of our older people in later life that's just a ridiculous dichotomy that they can't explain or councillor O'Neillhead of Cosly, Davie O'Neill said within our health service the number of people who come from out with the UK is critical, an awful lot of children childcare workers and other care workers are from outside the UK if such people lose the ability to come to Scotland that's a really big problem for us it's not that myself as a Government back bench are saying this or the Government is actually Cosly that's saying this it's the STU that's saying this it's the Conservatives that are saying this but they're causing the problem in relation to Brexit I want to say a little bit about the care experience of my family which I know given my constituency case work is not uncommon for older citizens there are often two carers in a household working care for each other partners both in frail health provide care for each other a co-dependency model is very often the case in many households in my mother's case she was elderly frail and vascular dementia my father had various health conditions over many years long-term mobility issues also my mother lived the last year of her life in a care home and my father passed away still at home eventually in a hospice six months later dying of lung cancer and the hindsight is a wonderful thing for all of us but I suspect despite the high level of at home support to be fair provided by Western Bartmanshire council in this instance my mother would have benefited from a residential support placement far earlier than she actually got it and actually my father also but I'm not sure what models of residential support exist in such circumstances why wouldn't we consider identifying a joint care home placement for a couple who are hurtling towards the obvious need for residential care why would we have a situation where you compound bereavement and a family by tearing one lifelong partner away from the other to residential care and then when the second partner is residential care the opportunity of actually having a co-located care placement is almost non-existent to people living at home because that wasn't the situation in my mother and father's case but I merely make the point that I know that is the situation because I've got a constituency case at the moment where I haven't actually had the permission to share the full details of it so I'll merely say that a constituency case at the moment where that looks like it might be the situation and I'm not actually criticising at the moment the local authority or the entity joint care board I'm not sure we have the models I think we have to do that I think it's an imperative going forward with an ever-aging, it's a good thing with an ever-aging population but why would we have people who are living older and frailer, why would we separate them from lifelong partners, it's the wrong thing to do we must build models of residential support that can look at that matter and I hope that is something at some point that the Scottish Government can do I want to say a little bit about health and social care integration and actually restate some of the housing issues that I raised in relation to the debate led by Neil Findlay as convener of the Health and Sport Committee last week in this chamber because that links into issues of the care tax and issues of free personal care at the point of needing indeed increasing and advancing free personal care I've got a couple of constituency cases at the moment where the only way to keep people at my constituents at home would be in their own house but their low income would be to build an extension we have to get financial models around that to make that happen but I get the issues that I said last week about the equity within that house and it's having models available to sustain them at home but making sure that the public purse is protected I've got another constituent who owns their flat accommodation we have to make sure that health and social care services and the housing association who I hope will buy that flat back work seamlessly to make sure that my vulnerable constituent is protected but also to make sure that the public purse is protected and that is sustainable as well I'm hoping that I can find the quote that I'm looking for by saying that I'm trying to give consensual ways we could develop the system going forward I genuinely don't feel we've had that necessarily from the Labour benches or the Conservative benches who have talked about council cuts so let me just put one thing on the record in relation to alleged council cuts councillor Frank McAfee to leader of Glasgow city council talks about cuts in the local authority area but he never ever includes additional monies from health and social care integration ever but he did during the budget process in the Scottish Parliament for the local government communities committee and here's what Mr McAfee said 33 million was the element of integrity joint board resource allocation that was made to the council half of that to meet the living wage obligations a good thing that's my words but I'm sure Mr McAfee thinks a good thing is well that other half was for to alleviate pressures in social work services 33 million pounds that doesn't count leader of the largest council in Scotland saying it's making a difference that's what he told our committee and as for the Conservatives who cut resources to Scotland shame on you for calling for more for local social services when you won't say where a penny will come from so in my speech I've sought to challenge my own government for where the system has to be improved and do that with the degree of consensualness I hope that continues by others in this debate thank you Alex Cole-Hamilton to follow by Stuart McMillan Mr Cole-Hamilton please I'd like to start by thanking the Scottish Green Party for bringing this important motion to Parliament today and I can assure them of our support I also refer members to my declaration of interest in respect of the fact that before I came to this place I worked for the children's charity which provides a range of support services to children with disabilities and their families I share the sentiments of every member in this chamber who has spoken this afternoon in the spirit of that shared belief that carers in Scotland are without question the unsung heroes of our nation we rely on them to fill the gap that we can't meet in the delivery of health and personal care services to the tune of somewhere north of £11 billion a year we rely on them to respond with flexibility and speed to the needs of the people that they care for when that situation deteriorates and we rely on them to accept monumental disruption that late night emergencies, protracted hospital stays, red tape in the welfare system can all exert in their daily lives every week I seek to help constituents who are working their hearts out to provide care for the children that they love but seem to do so in their isolation people like Khalida Hussein who was relieved to finally get a diagnosis for her severely autistic son a year ago only to discover that meant joining an even longer waiting list for assessment and resource allocation which she is yet to receive or like Elspeth Martin who is keen through her own resources to provide an additional support worker for her own son to support his learning in school but is told she can't because of a council policy that actually doesn't even exist unlike Caroline Muir whose teenage son has ricocheted from school to school following exclusion after exclusion due to challenging behaviour linked to Aspergers to the point where I have helped her to submit a section 70 complaint to Scottish ministers so badly has she been let down I should add that each of these constituents have given me their express permission to name them today our knowledge that these people will not turn away from loved ones even though they often exist on the edge of poverty, of isolation and sometimes even of surrender amounts to a kind of exploitation in which we as policy makers in this place by not fully meeting the cause of carers and organisations are complicit we answered some of that call in the carers act in the last Parliament but we still have a great distance to travel particularly in respect of access to meaningful respite it is a failure that is most stark when considering Scotland's young carers as of right now we estimate there to be 29,000 or so young carers under the age of 16 in Scotland because identification is a real problem many young people who care for either a parent or sibling may not realise that the duties they carry out at home are not normal or that they should be deserving of greater support as such many soldier on in the shadows and we identify them through chance encounters through teachers, GPs or social workers we need to train our workforce better to close that gap and identify them sooner and then equip them with the tools to answer the needs of these young people we put far too little value on the service provided by those 750,000 or more friends families, members and neighbours who on any given day in Scotland provide a caring role we seldom offer them thanks and more often than not when the needs and demands of their role increase we meet that change in circumstance with indifferent expectation these people deserve to be treated with dignity to have adequate recognition for the grace, compassion and dedication that they show in the service they provide so I asked the minister in her closing remarks to act on the sentiment of the Labour Party amendment make good on your manifesto commitment and name the date on which this Parliament will use its new powers to increase the level of carers allowance you have the votes across the majority of the benches in this place we lack only the opportunity to cast them Presiding Officer the amount that we value caring in our society is discernible I will Sandra White I thank the member for taking intervention when you mentioned about the increase in carers allowance I will mention it in my contribution but the reason it hasn't been introduced just now is we've got to work with Westminster at the moment and we cannot just introduce it straight away we all want to introduce it but as the convener of the committee we can't possibly do it just now Alex Cole-Hamilton I thank Sandra White for her intervention and I absolutely recognise the role that Westminster has in the delay in this but I would like to see a clearer understanding of the timetable that the Scottish Government would favour in terms of its introduction Presiding Officer the amount that we value caring in our society is discernible from the criminally low levels of pay offered to our professional care workforce which in turn is linked to resource allocation to families who are either directly or through local authorities commission care whilst local authorities cite the balance in favour of quality over cost when it comes to commissioning there are examples up and down this land of providers pairing back on cost to the bare minimum to meet their contractual obligations incorporating travel time into the hourly rate a particular problem in rural areas and paying staff poverty wages whilst taking a markup skim from the advertised rate My fellow members of the health and sport committee have on a number of occasions met with members of this workforce who cite the compassion they have for those for whom they care as the only reason they just don't jack the whole thing in and go and stack shelves in a supermarket for the same money No wonder the market is so barren caring should be a career of the highest esteem and one that is both enriching in the interpersonal warmth that passes between both caregiver and receiver and in the financial recompense they receive for this role I want to emphasise about growing up to be one and we want foreign workers to see Scotland as a country of choice to relocate and enter the profession but we need a culture shift at every level of government in Scotland to make this happen and it is only the political will that we like to do so and which stands in our way I was asked this morning on Good Morning Scotland how we pay for this but the answer is blindingly simple when my constituent stays an extra 150 nights in a hospital because there is not a social care package available for him to go home to the cost of that failure demand is self-evident and that blockage in social care capacity then impacts on every other level in our health service put simply I am in my final minute put simply we cannot afford not to I would like to finish with a personal tribute to the carers in our society to those known personally to me related to me and to those grafting away in homes up and down this country of health and social care in our society and you are the pride of our nation I have Stuart McMillan to be followed by Brian Whittle thank you very much I'm pleased to speak in this debate today and I think like many members I've had the opportunity to speak with a number of carers and care providers in my constituency particularly in the last year and genuinely I believe it's only by meeting and hearing from carers first hand that we can really appreciate the specific challenges that they face and also how their lives can actually be improved I think it's this point that's been touched upon earlier but I think it's something that really does need to be stressed anyone can be a carer at some point in their life I think we all know carers, I do and certainly as a young boy my grandmother came to live with us as my mother became her carer now dementia is unfair and it doesn't discriminate whoever it takes and it's touched upon today as well regarding couples law and it's been mentioned a few times and I certainly welcome the research that's been commissioned by UEFA into the potential link between the heading of football and also dementia and I think that many members will generally be sympathetic to the couples law campaign and I certainly am but I'm also sure that the research will be greatly advantageous and I welcome at the point that Scotland also is the first country in the world to produce national guidance in dealing with concussion and sport Presiding Officer a few points have been touched upon by some colleagues today and I do want to touch upon just a couple of them James Dornan in his contribution he spoke about the Tory cuts agenda I thought that that certainly was a very strong point bearing in mind the level of mitigation measures that this Scottish Government has had to introduce to deal with the Tory cuts policies in recent years and the more mitigation measures that are undertaken by the Scottish Government it then means that there is less money to be invested in other areas that we as a Parliament would certainly want that money to go into and Graham Simpson touched upon the issue of Graham Simpson actually quoted a matter of choice when highlighting the issue of the Scottish Government and some of its decisions I genuinely think that that was a very probably anorthic of remark to make by Mr Simpson particularly 24 hours after this chamber spoke and debated the issue of the rape clause this Tory Government policy which Mr Simpson voted for yesterday Mr Simpson also spoke about a matter of choice just one moment I'll let you in we also spoke about a matter of choice and that's regarding the issue of carers the Scottish Government has been told that the UK Government current eligibility criteria for carers allowance limits the ability to work or study that is a matter of choice that the UK Government has introduced Graham Simpson very briefly Stuart McMillan will have heard me talking about the choice that the Scottish Government has made to cut councils budgets year on year that's what I was referring to surely he must admit that's a fact Stuart McMillan no what I said Mr Simpson I quoted you sorry Mr Simpson in the chamber stated a matter of choice every Government Mr Simpson will agree with me on this every Government has got to make decisions and the Government that he supports in London introduced that heinous policy that this chamber discussed and debated yesterday now one other point was that Donald Cameron Donald Cameron spoke of the Scottish Government putting in a plan to set things on a right footing what Mr Cameron didn't actually do to the chamber was actually offered any options or any costs as to how this plan or putting things on a right footing would actually take place at least Alice Cole-Hamilton in his closing comments indicated an area in terms of savings in terms of the health service at least that was something that Mr Hamilton offered well okay yes I can allow the time Mr McMillan hold on Mr Priggs Miles Priggs I thank Stuart McMillan for taking this intervention the Scottish Government will receive £800 million in additional Barnett consequentials this year that is extra money that can help pay for these policies does he not want to acknowledge that fact obviously it doesn't fit his political agenda but it's a fact of the matter that this Parliament is receiving £800 million in Barnett consequentials Stuart McMillan I think what Mr Priggs is all is forgetting or not forgetting to tell the chamber and anyone listening is the level of cuts that the UK Government have actually put on to this particular Parliament and also into this Scottish Government over many many many years now one thing Presiding Officer I'm conscious I'm worse than fifth minute now we're conscious that carers are often the unsung heroes in our country and that's something that has been touched upon thousands of people dedicate their lives to caring for others and gave the Government in particular in NHS services and the social care system billions of pounds every single year through their selfless care and attention and we've heard about the level of people who actually are registered carers just under £800,000 one of the points that comes up that was raised with me time and time again when I do talk to carers is the estimated level of people who are not registered under £800,000 probably will be well in excess of that and I think that's something that across the chamber it's something that we probably do have to recognise and that will probably be the exact same situation for the 29,000 registered young carers and that figure will probably be increased one also but young carers can be any child around young person below the age of 18 who actually take on the responsibilities and I genuinely believe that society always is providing a caring role a massive debt of gratitude now I did take a couple of interventions and I am conscious of time I do think certainly one of the aspects of the carers act that this Parliament passed last year certainly in terms of the provisions of the act they certainly will ensure the better and more consistent support for carers and young carers so that they can continue to care if they so wish and better health and also have a life alongside caring is working with councils despite what we've actually heard from some of the Conservative members today the Scottish Government is working with councils and health boards to actually agree what needs to be done to shape the future of health and social care over the next 20 years and the Scottish Government are determined to make a real difference to people's lives with the responsibilities that we actually have and my final point this Government and certainly the members from these benches do recognise the vital role that carers fulfil in our society caring for family, caring for friends and neighbours and also including people who are the most vulnerable in our society thank you very much Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate and thank the Greens for bringing it to the chamber if I may I would like to focus my contribution on the role of young carers and the challenges that they face currently in Scotland there are tens of thousands of young carers and some estimates suggest there may be upwards of 100,000 most of these young carers are still in school and taking on the role of carer not by choice but by circumstance to anyone looking on you couldn't tell them apart from any other teenager but then again they are still normal teenagers they are full of hopes and aspirations for the future they are ambitious to continue their education and build careers in the world of work and they want to spend their weekends and evenings in the company of their friends along with colleagues from across this chamber I attended the Scottish young carers festival last year and I think it was fair to say we were blown away with the energy and enthusiasm that greeted us and I have to be honest and say that until I had the opportunity to attend the event and speak to young carers, listen to what they had to say and mix with them it was an area I didn't know enough about like many in this chamber I knew what a carer was but I didn't know who they were during the event we watched as young carers acted out real situations that happened to them daily we heard how every day they can be late for school or not get the chance to complete homework or arrive at a class tired or a myriad of other issues that can arise through no fault of their own because they have caring duties for a family member at home one of the biggest issues for them though isn't the effects of these responsibilities it's the lack of knowledge and understanding they sometimes receive from others when teachers and classmates don't understand a young carer situation and make allowances for their added responsibility it can make life that much harder for young carers when lateness is perceived as rudeness or a failure to do homework as written off as laziness this only increases the feelings of isolation and loneliness that are all too often a feature of the life of a young carer of course the flip side of that coin is just a little bit more understanding of the role of the young carers and it can make a big difference to their experience many young carers are fortunate and already have teachers, friends and even employers who understand the carers situation and adapt to it but there is little way of consistency across the country teachers do have a vital role to play in their lives of all their pupils but for young carers they can also be a vital source of support and advice for people who have had to grow up that little bit too fast understanding costs is nothing Deputy Presiding Officer but it can make a huge difference to young carers Deputy Presiding Officer like all of us in this chamber I regularly receive emails from charities and other organisations with briefings about issues such as social care indeed before this debate I received a number of them and while these briefings can be very useful and informative I don't believe that there is a better way to understand an issue like this than to sit down and listen to the personal experiences of those who have lived the issue day on day young carers the chance to speak to MSPs and tell us more about how we could help them and boy did they frankly when it comes to holding politicians to account and asking difficult questions they can teach some of us in this chamber a thing or two but that only helped to reinforce both the importance of the issue and the incredible resilience of the young carers to hear the real practicalities of what they face on a day to day basis is exactly what we need I think some would tell you they have to take the bus to the chemist to pick up a prescription and pay for the round trip out of their own pocket can't help but have an impact on the way that we think we can sit and read reports all day but few of them will be as compelling as listening to a younger person younger than my own daughter in fact talk about the sacrifices they've made to care for someone else it was only right to acknowledge that the Government have made significant changes to their willingness across the chamber to continue to improve the lives of carers I also think it's fair to say that one of the biggest issues facing carers is lack of income the Scottish Conservatives have called for the carers allowance to rise in line with jobseekers allowance a move which would benefit over 60,000 people but perhaps there are other ways other than the carers allowance that we can support and value young carers I would like to look at the possibility of a free public transport for young carers both to reduce the costs associated with their role as a carer but also to make life a bit easier for them beyond caring in education can we provide more opportunities for flexible or distance learning giving not just young carers but all carers the chance to learn and improve their career chances Deputy Presiding Officer you can't walk down the street and pick out the people most likely to be a carer they're all different and just as carers don't fit any particular mould they're either too prescriptive or narrow and how we choose to support them by all means let's increase the carers allowance let's do everything we can to make sure they aren't at a financial disadvantage through being a carer but let's also think beyond just how we can improve their lives of carers with money Parliament needs to do more to improve public knowledge of the role of carers and through that encourage greater flex it's been in my last minute sorry sorry there is it if you wish it Mr Whittle I'll happily give way to that Aileen Campbell again I just want to well thank some of the views and the opinions and the concerns that the member has raised I just wonder what Brian Whittle feels about the UK Government taking away motability cars from some of the most vulnerable in our society Brian Whittle it's all the same to the minister I want to stick to the task in hand I do understand it speaks to your political persuasion to try and attack as much as we possibly can but I would like to stick to another debate Parliament needs to do more to improve public knowledge of the role of carers and through that encourage greater flexibility and understanding for carers in everyday life the role of the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament isn't just to care for carers but to make sure others care about them Charles Dickens said no one is useless in this world as the burden of others Deputy Presiding Officer, just as carers lighten the burden of those they care for it's surely up to us to lighten the burden also The last of the open session speeches is Sandra White Thank you very much and I thank Garlison Johnson for bringing forward this very important issue for debate and in particular in the motion that has been brought forward by the Green Party the issue of young adult carers particularly in education which I know from visiting the many colleges and universities in my constituency in Glasgow-Kelvin it is a very very real issue with students I mean there's over 6,000 students identifying as carers obviously there's more but there's over 6,300 I think it is who do actually identify as students with caring issues and I do congratulate the students groups which I've met who are actually carrying out work within this particular issue to address this very important issue of student carers and I also want to highlight the college development network which is funded by the Scottish Government delivering an online resource for learners it is most welcome however I know from speaking to students with caring responsibilities they tell me that the dealer would love to be able to attend college and universities in fact my memory serves me correct one student told me it gives them a sense of normality and I think we can all understand that so I look forward to the day when obviously we can put that forward to them Miles Briggs Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer how does the member feel that this Government cutting 120,000 part-time college places are just going to help carers to actually get into training at a college sector Sandra White Thank you very much the caring Tories again can I perhaps ask the Tory party opposite under the so-called caring Tories perhaps if she did your homework you'll see they weren't cut but I would like to ask why is it then that no Tory MSP over here has even mentioned the fact that he voted against a further £100 million for a wage rise for carers so I saw the toxic version yesterday and I'm sure it's not changed that very much at all but as I said before I'm really grateful for this to be brought forward and also the fact that if we want students to be able to participate in the sense of normality in colleges we will need to ensure that facilities are in place and many members have already mentioned that packages and support are in place also as well and this brings me to a date when carers allowance to provide extra support for young people with caring responsibilities and the increase of carers allowance to the level of job seekers allowance and if I can reply to the comments by Colin Smyth and it is mentioned in the motion also in the Labour motion and do comment on this confirm me a date when carers allowance will be increased and I did reply to that in my comments to Alex Cole-Hamilton where I as a convener of the Social Security Committee members as well as groups who have given evidence to the Social Security Committee we do agree that this is an absolute key policy which has to be delivered however we need to know that we need to work with the Westminster Parliament on this which is what the comment that I gave to Alex Cole-Hamilton and if I can just say there's been lots of talk about that but the Social Security Committee the Scottish Affairs Committee in Westminster have met, it's historic twice we've met together to try and iron out some of the things that has been happening within the benefit system and the transfer of powers albeit 15% of powers but the transfer of powers and there have been some sticky moments and there has been letters back and forth in fact if I can just give you a quote of one of the joint letters which was sent by Pete Wishart and myself as both conveners of the relevant committees we mentioned the fact that we wanted a review of the agreement between the Scottish Government and the DWP to ensure that claimants do not lose out through the transfer of powers and that they benefit when new powers are actually exercising sent through and I think we would all agree that we need to deliver this absolutely yes as soon as possible but we also need to make sure it is delivered properly and it's a key point actually we can't build people's aspirations and hopes up when we can't deliver it tomorrow or next week. We've got to make sure that this is a smooth transition where basically people don't fall through the cracks and people aren't actually affected by the fact that they're not getting it today and I know that Mr Smyth didn't mean this anyway whatsoever at all in his comments or in the Labour motion so we need to look at this policy taking it forward and we need to get it right and I'll take an intervention Colin Smyth What the actual delay in these discussions is the minutes of the meeting in February seem to imply that the minister wanted to consider information from the DWP so what exactly is the delay in bringing proposals to this chamber Can I say Mr Smyth's microphone wasn't working properly Oh, Mr Smyth didn't have his card in his microphone Can I ask Sandra White did she hear the content of the intervention? I did, Mrs Smyth mentioned the February meeting et cetera. The delay is from the Westminster side we need to make sure we have this absolutely correct my understanding is the delay is from the Westminster side and that is why the Scottish Government has asked the DWP to take forward a feasibility study so that we can actually deliver this so I know that Mr Smyth and the Labour Party didn't mean to cause any unnecessary distress to claimants but we really need to get this right and we shouldn't be saying to people we're dragging our feet we want to make sure this is right I know I'm perhaps running out a wee bit of time but I wanted to turn once again it's a an allowance that perhaps we've all forgotten about and perhaps we should be reminding the stories of part of the fact that they voted against raising the wage of carers let's not forget about their tenants allowance when we first brought in free personal care to this Parliament the Westminster Government stopped their tenants allowance for the very many people we were giving free personal care to that should not have been allowed we repeatedly asked for it and we still haven't had it back so I'll bat it back over to the Tories again perhaps they can write to their ministers and ask why we haven't received the many millions of pounds we would have been receiving from a tenants allowance which is rightfully the people in the Scottish Parliament as well thank you Presiding Officer we now move to the closing speeches I'm disappointed to see that there's a couple of people who contributed to this debate who have not come back in in time for the closing speeches can I also say at this point that it's perfectly acceptable for people to request to leave the chamber out with the Presiding Officer's protocol and I'm okay with that however can I ask that when you do send a note up you give the reason why rather than just broad generalisations thank you we move to the closing speeches and I call Monica Lennon up to six minutes please Ms Lennon thank you Presiding Officer I'd firstly like to thank Alison Johnstone for bringing forward this motion to Parliament today I think it's been a really good debate and we've had lots of members taking part and I think that is always to be welcomed and I'd like to confirm Scottish Labour's support today for the motion and I'm grateful for any support that we get for the amendment in Colin Smyth's name not Smyth, I'll just probably clear that up on behalf of Colin Smyth who's been very polite and just nodding along there have been excellent contributions today the key thing here is that we actually put on record our thanks and our gratitude and our respect to carers whether they are waged or unwaged and I think there's been some genuine contributions from members today in doing so and I think we've heard some quite moving accounts on behalf of people's constituents and people who are close to us who are carers for example who reference both her sisters and hopefully they're pleased today that Parliament recognises their important work because the value of the work that carers do is immeasurable and we simply couldn't run our NHS or our social care services without them but yet we're still so far removed from the support or parent they've received there's still such a gap in terms of valuing their work Labour supports the plans to upgrade carers allowance using the powers of the Scottish Parliament and I echo Colin Smyth's earlier calls on this debate under Labour motion today calling on the Scottish Government to give carers the certainty and respect they deserve by confirming a date for when carers allowance will be increased I was I think today people have been at pains not to be too party political but we are here to to advocate positions yesterday we had a debate that I think moved some members to tears I know that I did sitting behind Kezia Dugdale here and some of the policies that have come from the UK Government and the whole austerity agenda is the complete opposite of my politics in fact that is why I came into politics to try and put an end to Tory Governments and I think it is a bit rich and I should declare that I am still for a few more days I serve councillor at South Lanarkshire where Graham Simpson has also been a member for I think longer than I have but we can't just talk about Tory austerity and have a go to the Scottish Government without being honest about that and equally well I would say to James Dornan and others we can't be in denial about the cuts that have been passed down to local Government and in fact the STUC have passed a motion today asking us to really be honest about that and we have these discussions we can't pretend and I have to say to the minister to Eileen Campbell we don't accept on these benches that local government is getting a fair deal and others have said oh there aren't any cuts I think we have to be completely honest we don't all agree about where we're getting to but we have to be honest about what's coming down from the UK Government and from the Scottish Government James Dornan I thank the member for taking an intervention one of the things that comes across from both the Conservative and Labour benches is the talk of priorities now surely what you have to accept is that the same thing applies at local council level that it is about priorities we're all working under restrained budgets and we have to make the best of that and also if Glasgow City Council had dealt with equal pay claims as they should have done a long time ago they wouldn't be in a situation that they are just now Monica Lennon I thank James Dornan for his intervention I don't know I think the discussion is perhaps moving on of course we all have to be accountable for our choices but again it goes back to the point that local services have been cut so when we look at the carers there are not enough of them and people are under so much pressure now one of the things that I would say and I don't know if I think we've got time so I'll be generous there's not an awful lot of time left Grabe Simpson very very quick so are you as Monica Lennon actually agreeing with me that local councils throughout Scotland have been hit by the SNP Government budgets have been cut year on year so it's increasingly difficult for councillors including her and myself Monica Lennon I think I'm on record and I'm very clear about this that I think local government and local services are having a really rough time I don't think I've ever agreed with Grabe Simpson on anything in my life but I think it's undeniable that local services have been cut now we can all have a debate about who we think is responsible for that when I speak to local constituents and carers well there's a debate going on behind me here but one of the things that I try to do as a local councillor was actually go to where people are and listen to their experiences and try and understand and not pretend to have all the answers so I held dedicated carers surgeries at Lanarkshire carers centre to go to where carers are and some of the problems that were put in front of me were so complicated and difficult that sometimes I didn't know where to start and I've worked at the Scottish Government I've worked in local government I'm used to the system but what is clear to me is that too often the system is just working against people services are supposed to be there to support people not to try and push them back now I realise that we've opened up a discussion here and I will need to wind up I'm pleased that we've put on record today our appreciation and support for carers and for young carers in particular I know that Brian Whittle and others made great efforts to do that there is a postcode lottery when it comes to services whoever gets elected to run our councils or to be in government in this place or in the UK Parliament really has to stand up for carers I think we've all recognised where the demographic challenges we have we've got a very long way to go and no one in here can sit back and say that they're doing enough I now call on Miles Priggs up to six minutes please Mr Priggs thank you Deputy Presiding Officer I'm pleased to close this debate on social care for the Scottish Conservatives and I thank the Green Party for bringing this important issue to Parliament today colleagues across the chamber have highlighted the vital work which social care services in Scotland do to support older and vulnerable people but also the struggles and pressures which these services are facing today and will in the future discuss the huge progress which has already been made to move away from institutional care settings and start to deliver person-centred care in an environment which allows people maximum independence and be involved in their own support and Scottish Conservatives have welcomed and were supportive of the roll-out of self-directed support which can, if delivered properly offer real choice and control for people's own support and health and social care integration to encourage the joined-up thinking between NHS boards and local councils preventing the unnecessary admissions and delayed discharges as well as reducing variations and inefficiencies however, it's clear that the policy has not yet gone far enough and has started to deliver the change on the ground which we all in this chamber want to see Graham Simpson spoke about the carers bill due to being introduced in April of 2018 The bill sets out the support which carers are entitled to including their own access to self-directed support and the wavering of support charges The Scottish Conservatives believe that carers require financial as well as emotional and practical support particularly for the over 170,000 people who provide care for over 35 hours a week and as has been mentioned in this debate already by a number of speakers the acknowledgement that carers in Scotland today can save £10.8 billion to our Scottish public sector and to the Scottish economy that is why we've called for the carers allowance to be aligned with jobseekers allowance benefiting over 60,000 carers and I'm pleased that we've seen cross-party support for that measure today Brian Whittle discussed the more practical support which can be provided to unpaid carers The Scottish Government has estimated that there's 44,000 carers under the age of 18 in Scotland and young carers require targeted support through schools colleges and specialised support services and I want to also use this opportunity today to highlight the campaign I've been involved with for this past year since being elected as an MSP and that is the Frank's law campaign April the 16th marked the third anniversary of Frank Pel's death I think it's a shocking indictment that in some parts of Scotland today, terminally ill patients under the age of 65 are being charged for the help they need with basic things like washing dressing and feeding themselves Scottish Conservatives want to see this change and I was pleased that all opposition parties in this Parliament committed to supporting a policy change but I have to say that campaigners are becoming more and more frustrated at the lack of progress in this area The Government announced the Feasibility Study and they welcomed it but charities in the field have told me that they have not been contacted and already have major concerns and are looking at where and I'm concerned that the actual Feasibility Study will be ill-informed and limited and that's something I would seek a meeting with the minister Shona Robison I said in my opening remarks that officials are already meeting with a number of organisations certainly next week they're meeting with the door is open to meet with a whole range of organisations and the Feasibility Study will be completed in the summer, hopefully he'll therefore relay that information to relay people's concerns if they raise it with him I have indeed and I've also tabled a number of written questions to the minister to find out which organisations have actually been involved from the outset In some cases I hope the minister and this Government would have gone out to try to speak to people not expect them to come to them and so I have to say to ministers today to end this age discrimination which exists for people in Scotland under the age of 65 in this term of the Scottish Parliament I'm happy to take an intervention if the minister would like to confirm that this will be ended Excuse me cabinet secretary Shona Robison We should surely wait for the Feasibility Study which will inform about how that can be done As I've said to Miles Briggs I'm willing to do that on a cross-party basis but let's get the information first to the spending commitment around free personal care for the under 65s which we need to take forward and find resources for His backbenchers have called for more money for local government today Can Miles Briggs as a front bench spokesperson explain where that money has to come from if he indeed supports this backbench calls for more money for local government in addition to more money for free personal care for the under 65s? Mr Briggs you only have one minute left Miles Briggs As I've already said in this debate 100 million pounds of additional Barnett consequential funding coming to this Parliament in this 2017-18 financial year Deputy Presiding Officer Frank Slore is needed today it was needed yesterday and we cannot let the SNP or this government kick this issue into the long grass We need a Scottish Government to act with real reform explore alternative service models and ensure that integration is fully enacted in this country We need to see a shift in healthcare a shift of the balance towards a community in order to lay the foundations for strong and personalised social care services which are going to be capable of delivering what we all want to see which supports what is an ageing population in Scotland and delivers the vital services which Scotland so desperately needs I also like other members welcome the opportunity to close this debate and to do so on behalf of the Government It gives us, as others have already done so today, the opportunity to reiterate our gratitude to carers right across the country for what they selflessly do, motivated by compassion and love It also provides us with a chance to highlight our commitment to progress improvements for carers, provide them with the support they need and deserve and to also have a life alongside caring Stuart McMillan I thought it spoke very movingly about their own life experience and I just wanted to add my own family's experience of my mother who had to care for my late granddad and she would not have been able to do that without the support of crossroads and again, even though that might have been over 20 years ago, I think the story remains, the sentiment remains the same that the way families require support alongside their caring role to ensure that they can have that life alongside their caring responsibilities But there has been significant progress made in terms of policy and legislation regarding caring and carers in Scotland over the lifetime of this Parliament It's been significant and has been transformative which has seen free personal care for the elderly, the integration of social care and health It's seen us develop self-directed support and it's seen the increasing use of personalisation of care to empower carers and those that are cared for to help get bespoke and tailored help I hope that that may go some way to allay some of the final comments of Miles Priggs because I do think that we're on that journey around making sure that people can feel empowered and be much more in control and in charge of the support and help that they deserve But of course there is much more that we need to do and the challenges that we must face and overcome not least the ageing population and our ability as a nation to respond to that challenge, ensuring fairness ensuring dignity, ensuring respect appropriate and timely support Many members have raised very important issues and I hope to cover and address as many as the time will allow me There has been much discussion about our commitment to increase carers allowance and to the level of jobseekers allowance Administration of carers allowance in Scotland will be the responsibility of the new social security agency once established and in parallel with the work to establish the agency we are working hard to deliver the increase carers allowance on an earlier timescale and we have asked the DWP to explore whether existing systems and processes could be used to pay for this increase, I think Sandra White and others did articulate how though there are challenges in this process and we're currently working with the DWP on feasibility studies and these should be concluded by the end of April we're also actively considering whether we and the Scottish Government could make the payment in advance of setting up the social security agency so again to give comfort and to some of the members who have raised this we are absolutely exploring every option and looking at every possible way that we can move as quickly as we possibly can to advance this commitment in response to more general concerns about the interaction of carers and their allowances and the DWP which has been raised I think by Mark Ruskell he is right to raise this rather all views as we develop our approach to social security benefits for carers the experience panels consisting of carers including young carers with direct experience of the benefit system are being established to help us to achieve that aim the panels will start this summer around for four years using the principles of working, designing and developing together to create a social security system that better meets the needs of those who will be received of benefits and as part of the fiscal framework the UK Government any new benefits or discretionary payments introduced by the Scottish Government which provide additional income for a recipient will not result in an automatic offsetting reduction by the UK Government and their entitlement elsewhere in the UK benefits system furthermore we want to ensure people take up the financial help they deserve most recently figures suggest that there could be over 500,000 cases of individuals in Scotland not claiming the support that they deserve and that they need we are taking action to support people to take up benefits and this will also include action targeted specifically at younger carers during carers week in June Colin Smyth and Alison Johnson and other members also raised issues and concerns around sleepovers and the living wage and the Government has consulted with stakeholders on this commitment as successful delivery and making sure it is done right will require partnership and collaboration and we intend to extend our commitment to the living wage to include sleepovers during 2017-18 and as part of the £100 million we allocated £10 million for this we have identified a programme of work to support reforms and sleepovers to allow us to get to a position to meet our ambition of all hours being paid at the living wage and will continue on that basis that when a care worker is sleeping that their hours are compliant with the working time directive regulations while working hours paid at the living wage Patrick Harvie I think that is a very welcome commitment however the Government's amendment for today's debate says that all staff providing social care should be paid at least the real living wage the current budget only makes provision for those providing adult social care is it intentional in the Government amendment that this will be extended to those providing social care for children as well? Eileen Campbell There have already been a number of commitments and statements and announcements made by this Government around our commitment to ensuring that as many people as possible can get paid at the living wage most recently in the spring of this year by the First Minister around our commitment to early learning and childcare and will continue to do what we can as a Government unlike the Conservatives who seem to want to do what we can to ensure that people who are working in the care sector get the support and the pay that they deserve for the work that they do There's less than a minute left OK, can I move on then with the rest of what I want to cover if that's OK? Sorry because I just want to touch very briefly on the issue of young carers because it's the responsibility of communities everywhere to be aware of the needs of their young carers that are not equipped to better understand how to recognise who is a young carer and that information is widely available for young people to self-identify as being a young carer and that requires a great deal of leadership For instance when I visited the new Portobello High School in January to mark young carers awareness day I met with young carers and staff from the Edinburgh young carers project which runs the school awareness raising campaign and through that more than 350 previously hidden young carers across the country to develop that type of working and building relationships with our young carers There are many other areas that I would have liked to have covered particularly carers positive I think an issue that was raised by Alison Johnstone to ensure that employers can be as flexible as they can possibly be and understand the value and assets that they have in their workforce if they have a caring responsibility and while there is much more we need to do in Scotland it should also be noted that other parts of the UK are seeking to learn from Scotland so that we have had another opportunity to recognise the contribution that care workers and unpaid carers made to this country but we need to do more and we need to make sure that as we create the fairer country that we all see that carers are very much part of the dialogue and debate around making our country a fairer place I call on Patrick Harvie to close this debate around 8 minutes please Mr Harvie Thank you very much Deputy Presiding Officer and I thank the members for their chosen to take part in today's debate people caring for one another is as members across the spectrum have recognised fundamental to our society and to our economy I think it's fundamental to human existence to human experience and always has been Greens chose to bring this topic for debate because the way in which we organise and provide for that need that social care in our society today is clearly lacking as our motion says there remains a vast gap between the value of care and the support or pay that carers receive and we believe that nobody should face poverty because of the care that they give well we've reached a degree of consensus because none of the other political parties' amendments to the motion delete those two central elements the vast gap between the value of care and the support that we provide as a society to carers and the principle that no one should face poverty because of the care that they give so I welcome the degree of consensus that's been reached on that we all I think also agree that raising the carers allowance has to be part of the action that's needed Colin Smyth I think was quite right to call for a timescale and albeit the ministers set out some of the technicalities about how we reach that if we're moving toward feasibility studies at the end of this month surely then it's appropriate once those are published that we begin to set dates for the implementation of something we all agree is necessary Mr Smyth also made a clear case against excessive care charges and gave a recognition that long-term reductions in local government funding are incompatible with the progress that we need to see in supporting the Labour amendment today all parties have also agreed on the need to improve practical support for younger carers and greater financial support to young carers in education that is progress a young carers grant was a Green Party manifesto pledge but originally it was an initiative of a member of the Scottish Youth Parliament Lauren King the First Minister pledged to explore the parliamentary session and we've now got consensus on taking it forward the carers trust have come up with a number of ways in which that can be delivered and I urge all members to look at their proposals Shona Robison spoke of many of the steps forward that have been taken but there are aspects of this which so far remain on paper only and we do need clear commitments to timescales and the additional resources year by year in Scottish Government budgets to ensure that we do indeed close this vast gap between the value of care and the support that's provided we also brought this debate today to highlight the inequities in care paid and unpaid care is work that is most often performed by women and has a significant impact on women's lives 84 per cent of the social care workforce in Scotland are women in the childcare sector 66 per cent and many of these women are earning below the living wage even still it's also an issue which has particularly acute impacts on young people an estimated 44,000 people under 18 providing unpaid care so I'm glad that we've got consensus on those aspects I have to admit I had mixed feelings as Brian Whittle wax lyrical about providing that decent support to young people quoting even Dickens how did it go again no one in this world is useless who lightens the burdens of others let's just hope they're not unlucky enough to have committed the crime of being the third child in their family moving on to oh yes I'm delighted that so many conservatives have remembered how the political convention of interventions operates in the chamber and I'm delighted to give way thank you for that lecture thank you the member for taking the intervention can I just point out the fact that I have three children and none of them are going to be defined whether they get tax credit or not how much I love them I wish only that the member extended that respect to the rest of society rather than just his own family I'll come to the Conservative amendment in a moment but the Scottish Government amendment the Scottish Government amendment deletes our support to the idea of a living wage plus going beyond the living wage and also the case against care charges so while I do recognise the steps forward that the Scottish Government have made and are keen to talk about we won't be supporting their amendment because we believe that the case needs to go further as for the Conservative amendment which refers to audit Scotland's 2015 report health and social care integration the amendment appears to provide a direct quote current approaches will not be sustainable in the long term this quote is not actually from the report cited it's from audit Scotland's 2016 report on social work in Scotland that report to which the Conservatives should have attributed their quote refers to staff's low pay as the key cause of the social care sector's recruitment and retention issues and yet the Scottish Conservatives still won't support basic provision even of the living wage as a requirement Andy Wells tells us that providers are struggling well it's people working on poverty wages who are struggling in our society James Dornan made efforts to elicit some defence some defence and I regret that he made no more progress than the rest of us have in getting some defence from the Conservatives for those poverty wages one of the Conservative members also spoke about social care I suspect if they are returned with a bigger majority at Westminster as many people who will be needing respite from the Tory government rather than anything else Bob Dorris was not the only member who talked about the context of Brexit and the challenges that that is going to provide to all of us in terms of the retention and recruitment of the high quality talented and dedicated staff that our social care services need is more urgent that we redress this chronic and long term undervaluing of care services to give proper recognition and resources and support to the women and men who do this work in our society we need to rethink our society and economy and the way in which we value work it means a commitment to funding high quality paid social care that is ultimately free at the point of use for all regardless of age or medical condition it means paying all social care staff at least a living wage plus providing the resources that they need to ensure that they are able to do the job to the best of their abilities as they all want to do and it also means lifting the carers allowance by 50% raising it to over 93 pounds a week as the Greens propose and introducing a premium for those for more than one person and doing all of this without interfering with the payment of other benefits or increasing any of the care charges that people currently pay this would be dramatic investment in our society's social infrastructure this investment is urgent and this investment is worth it it would generate new employment it would close the gap particularly in terms of the gender pay gap but also the gap in equality in our society Kate Forbes I want to mention also talked about hidden carers I'm sure she was referring to those who are not included in our records and statistics and that is an important thing to recognise but all care work all care work is generally too hidden in our society we're not given the clear opportunity to see and to value the work that is being done in our society what is too often regarded as the highest profile forms of productive work running a business, producing our food even being a politician or a legislator all of these forms of work rely on, are dependent on unpaid caring labour behind the scenes often unseen all of us are able to be here today because we, our families have been and are supported by people doing unpaid caring labour and outside of employment many of us also provide support and care for others our loved ones will receive support from people working in social care and quite rightly we want them to have the best care provided by a high quality workforce that is appropriately rewarded and supported for the work that they do caring for one another is fundamental to our society it's fundamental to human nature without it we simply would not function I'm pleased that all political parties today are recognising the need for proper valuing of the paid and unpaid care in our society but we are a long way away from achieving it yet it's past time that we turned that recognition into action so that the next time we debate these issues in the Scottish Parliament we'll be able to look back on that that concludes our debate on carers and social care the next item of business is consideration of business motion 5332 in the name of Joffice Patrick on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau setting out a business programme I would ask any member who wishes to speak against the motion to press their request to speak button now and I call on Joffice Patrick to move motion 5332 formally moved thank you very much the next item of business is consideration of Parliamentary Bureau motion I would ask Joffice Patrick to move motion 5332 on the approval of an SSI formally moved and I would ask any member who wishes to speak against the motion to press their request to speak button now I call on John Finnie thank you, Presiding Officer in the last session of Parliament I challenged the immunities in the Parliamentary Bureau and I challenged the immunities and privileges order in respect of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank this draft order amends certain legal immunities and privileges in connection with the European Organisation of Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere ESO for short it's an international project it's Edinburgh based has 20 full time equivalent post in the project and was work is split between 40 to 50 individual staff members we're told that this order is and I quote it's an organisation to fulfil its purposes and carry out its functions, privileges and immunities applied by virtue of a practical protocol to the convention that was signed in 1974 I think there's agreement this is a complex area of law article 7 to 19 if the protocol require member states to grant a member privileges and immunities to the organisation, its staff and officers the majority of these relate to reserve matters and are dealt with in a parallel United Kingdom order the order's purpose is to correct an error that was inadvertently made in the principle order interestingly this error comes to light because the ESO pointed out that some of its staff were not receiving the reserve tax exemptions to which they were entitled Scottish officials reviewed the Scottish order last autumn and they discovered a different mistake that was unrelated to taxation indeed the mistake they discovered that was too many immunities and privileges in one instance were being granted I raised various points with the minister when she brought this to the justice committee and her grateful for her replies not least confirmation that is a complex area of law it's known that they are exempt from UK income tax and I await the minister's letter on the full list of tax exemptions with regard to criminal immunity I asked the minister what might apply and the minister suggested and I quote assault and other crimes of that type would not be covered however white collar crime might fall within the scope of the immunities and privileges there's also the issue of inviability of residence there's been no consultation on this order there's been no impact assessment there's no information on the number of persons in Scotland covered in total by this and the information the Scottish Government is and I quote we understand that the discrepancies in the Scottish order have given rise to no practical issues well I don't know how that statement could be made and this is about long standing conventions but my view and my party's views that they must be constantly evaluated I consider any Government minister coming to a justice committee extolling the virtue of any person being immune from criminal or civil law the residence or premises being in violet and exemption from taxation is fundamental at all the last time I spoke I said it's clear that the approach is intended to be business as usual but that's not the new politics I understand the Scottish Parliament to want to deliver I would encourage all members to vote for a system in which everyone in Scotland adheres to the law of the land and pays the taxes, age you by opposing this order thank you thank you Mr Finlay and I call Annabelle Ewing to respond thank you Presiding Officer the draft international organisations immunities and privileges Scotland amendment order 2017 amends various legal immunities and privileges in connection with the European organisation on the political research in the Southern Hemisphere otherwise known as the European Southern Observatory or ESO ESO is developing a giant telescope which is in an advanced stage designed by astronomers and industry across Europe led by the ESO to enable the organisation to fulfil its purposes and carry out its functions certain privileges and immunities apply by virtue of a protocol to the convention signed in 1974 the conferral of immunities and privileges on officers of the organisation is effectively a condition of membership as part of the UK's membership of ESO the agreement has to be effective throughout the UK this includes the privileges and immunities some of which relate to devolved matters in Scotland there are indeed as Mr Finlay referred 20 full time equivalent staff at the Royal Observatory in Edinburgh in fact around 40 to 50 staff in total who may potentially be entitled to privileges and immunities because of their work for ESO I know that John Finlay has concerns about the privileges and immunities from the civil and criminal law which are accorded to international organisations generally as far as their operations in Scotland are concerned and I will be answering a written PQ from Mr Finlay on that subject but I do fear that the member may have misunderstood the legal position of officials who are engaged in work for international organisations in Scotland such officials will usually be entitled to immunity from legal action whether criminal or civil but such immunities only apply when the relevant officials are engaged in their functions for the international organisation and that within the limits of their authority so for example those officials will be exempt from direct taxes but only in respect of the work that they do for the international organisation I'm afraid I've got a few seconds left I'm afraid Mr Finlay there is however an exception to that position in the case of motor traffic offences committed by them or of damage caused by motor vehicles belonging to or driven by them if such privileges and immunities were not extended to officials of international organisations in Scotland then all that would happen would be that such organisations would not carry out any work in Scotland to the detriment of the Scottish economy and the general standing of Scotland in the international community there is also the fact that those privileges and immunities are reciprocal so that Scottish and other UK officials working for international organisations abroad will be entitled to equivalent benefits to the extent that the privileges and immunities relate to devolved matters in Scotland conferral of those rights falls to the Scottish Parliament and it is therefore right that the Parliament should follow the Justice Committee's recommendation and approve this order thank you Presiding Officer thank you and the question on this order will be put at decision time to which we now come the next the first question is that amendment 5 312.2 in the name of Shona Robison which seeks to amend motion 5 312 in the name of Alison Johnson agreed we are not agreed we will move to a vote and members may cast a vote now the result of the vote on the amendment in the name of Shona Robison is yes 66 no 44 there were no abstentions the amendment is therefore agreed I remind members that if the amendment in the name of Annie Wells is agreed then the amendment in the name of Colin Smyth falls the next question is that amendment 5 312.1 in the name of Annie Wells which seeks to amend the motion in the name of Alison Johnson be agreed are we agreed we are not agreed we will move to a division and members may cast a vote now the result of the vote on the amendment in the name of Annie Wells is yes 28 no 82 there were no abstentions and the amendment is therefore not agreed the next question is that amendment 5 312.3 in the name of Colin Smyth which seeks to amend the motion in the name of Alison Johnson be agreed are we agreed we are not agreed the result of the vote on the amendment in the name of Colin Smyth is yes 48 no 62 there were no abstentions the amendment is therefore not agreed the next question is that motion 5 312 in the name of Alison Johnson as amended be agreed are we agreed we are not agreed we will move to a vote again and members may cast a vote now the result of the vote on motion 5 312 in the name of Alison Johnson as amended is yes 82 no 28 there were no abstentions the motion as amended is therefore agreed the final question is that motion 5 313 in the name of Joseph Patrick on the approval of an SSI be agreed are we agreed we are not agreed we will move to a vote and members may cast a vote now the result of the vote on motion 5 313 in the name of Joseph Patrick is yes there were no abstentions the motion is therefore agreed and that concludes decision time we will now move to members business in the name of George Adam and I would just ask members to leave the chamber as quietly as possible I will take a few moments to get seats