 Think Tech Hawaii. Civil engagement lives here. Welcome to What's on Your Mind Hawaii. I'm your host, Tim Apachella. Today, on the street interview topic, is the same which has been seen in the headlines for the past few days, the immigration policy. We've seen the images of refugees attempting to gain access at the south border crossings, waiting for days in their attempts to apply for refugee status as they flee their home countries of Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, and other Central and South American countries where violence and poverty is intolerable. Most recently, in the past six weeks, over 2,000 children have been separated from their adult parents as a new policy direction, which is referred to as zero tolerance, has been adopted by the Trump administration and specifically the Justice Department and Homeland Security to incarcerate those parents for illegally crossing into the United States. The former policy, known as a process known as catch and release, did capture families but did not separate them. They were caught illegally crossing into the United States, would be issued a hearing date, and then they would be required to appear to address those misdemeanor charges. But now, capture and family separation is the new policy direction, a direction that has not been implemented to this scale ever before. Both Democrats and certain Republicans are opposed to this new direction of the administration which has put on its path. Strong criticism has been directed against the Trump administration for this new approach of taking children away from their parents as a political strategy to either obtain greater funding for the wall or as a means to discourage more migration to the Mexican U.S. border and the deluge of asylum applicants. Two GOP bills have recently been introduced into Congress to allow children to remain with their parents while they prepare to answer the misdemeanor charges of unlawful entry into the United States. Time will tell if new legislation will be acted upon. Until then, we watched the nightly news with new shameful images of children locked away. Images not thought imaginable or possible, but they are. Today's interview, we discussed this and other aspects of immigration reform. And now that interview. Aloha, I'm Tim Apacheva for What's on Your Mind Hawaii for Think Tech Hawaii. Today we're here with Judith and today we're going to talk about what's on the hot topic immigration. Judith, thank you very much for joining us today. And as you know, the headlines are 2000 kids have been detained and separated from their parents over the last five to six weeks. But the bigger issue is immigration. So I'm just curious what you think about the recent developments and then we'll talk a little bit about your background and what you've been studying for quite some time. Right. Okay. I know that the information that we've been seeing on the news recently about the separation of parents and children. It's a tough issue, but I think that we have to consider the facts, the reality of what immigration is doing to the United States and the citizens, the native citizens. It's a difficult situation. Immigration has been a difficult situation for so many years that it's not going to be resolved in a short period of time because it's gone on too long and been tangled up in political issues. So they thought they resolved it back in the era of Ronald Reagan in 1987 where there was kind of a carte blanche amnesty for everyone who was in the country and there was new rules and laws affecting employers about hiring people that didn't have the proper documentation to be in the country. And they thought at that time that was pretty much going to settle things out. But that wasn't the case, was it? No, it wasn't. From my perspective and a little bit of my background, I've been studying on my doctorate for about four years and I pulled up a document of the history of immigration. And that's what took me on my journey before it became the hot topic. It took me on the journey that no wonder we're so... It's such a complex issue is historically I think they've just been putting patches on a big, big problem instead of solving, taking it piece by piece. And I think in terms of the huge elephant and you got to take it one bite at a time. It's complex from a standpoint that I think a lot of citizens do not even understand. They hear the word immigration and then they have the news reports telling them about a family being split up and it takes the heart issue when they don't really understand some of the factual pieces of it. You hear... I'm sorry, you hear... Well, I guess the one of the points I wanted to kind of bring out is the biggest point about the 1987 immigration reform laws was the fact that employers were desperate to have people come in and have the labor, whether it be in the agricultural sector or some of the manufacturing sector, and they needed employment and that was being turned off, but employers continued to hire people that didn't have documentation. This went on for years, if not decades, lobbyists in Washington, D.C. and the local states basically did their best to basically not make sure that the laws were being enforced. A lot of the land was not being enforced and everyone was looking in the other direction when it came to hiring people without documentation to be in the country. So that's kind of where we started on this path. Right. Well, interesting that you brought that topic up because one of the areas that I'm looking at right now in the workers, the low-skilled workers, I have to bring up the fact that a corporation back in 2006, during the Bush administration, they sent in several immigration agents to a company and some 900 workers were pulled away from that company, which left the company with little labor supply to get the corporation moving and going and could have lost the company. What happened is they put in ads and they began to pursue workers at a higher wage so that they wouldn't lose the company. So they paid more, they were forced to pay more, and they got the labor they were looking for. Well, that's one of the arguments that people say, look, illegal immigration is holding down wages for people who need a job and need to have a sustainable living wage. Certainly, it's a big issue here in Hawaii as a sustainable living wage. And I think there have been nice rates here in Hawaii as well. The bottom line is it's a complex, complex problem. What do you think is the major blocks of the complexity? Why isn't this being resolved in your mind? Well, I think the reason it's not being resolved is there's a lack of understanding, a lack of knowledge. I think that we have citizens that are in the United States that are interested, they're concerned, but they don't have full understanding or knowledge of how it works and how it operates from the standpoint of knowing what an illegal immigrant is, knowing what an undocumented immigrant is, low-skilled workers. There are individual citizens that are low-skilled that could be hired rather than going to the illegal avenue. I think over the course of the 18th and 19th century, there was definitely a need to bring in individuals from other countries to work to bring the United States up to the level economically that it should be. But I think we're in a different age now. I think in the 20th and 21st century, we've got to get past that mindset of what was working then is not working today. I think that we need to consider that we have young people in our universities and we're educating them and we have vocational students that are skilled that could take those jobs. And I think we have to attract those. I don't think that we have to go outside of our country in order to bring individuals in. That's saying that we're not educating them. We're not training them. Well, Microsoft and all the other high-tech companies in Silicon Valley in Seattle would argue otherwise that they need those individuals who have the education, have the skill set to jump and sit in those jobs and begin to perform and running, hitting the ground as soon as they're hired. And the education system has led us down as far as training our local citizens to take those kind of technical jobs. So isn't that a big part of this? That Microsoft and Apple, their petitioning and their lobbying Congress to increase the numbers, not decrease the numbers of allowing guest workers? I think based on what you just said, I have to say very honestly that the companies like Microsoft, the larger companies, they need to attract our young people. I've been working in education at the university level for over 13 years. And I've seen some very good, strong young people at the university level. But I've also interacted with young people enough to say that there are some skilled there's individuals that want to work. Even if they're in school, they want that job that will help them through. But with Microsoft, I guess my question to them, are you going to our universities? I don't have that background. I haven't researched that. But are you going to our universities? Are our universities that can pull in? Can you not start a job program that will cause them to get up to speed to where you want them to be? Or already be at that speed? Are you interviewing them to determine that? I bring up this point. I did a study in Germany and I was so fascinated with their educational program. They go into the high schools and they start these young people in an apprenticeship program in the high tech or high end corporations. And it's they start the apprentice right then and they look for those individuals that are that can meet their skill level and present them into that corporation. Well, you just hit the nail on the head because we used to have that in this country. That was called on the job training and that has really gone away. In fact, I remember President Trump's one of his campaigns slogans was let's bring back on the job training. Let's let's improve employment by training people and have them work, you know, as an apprenticeship of almost. And those days are gone, at least for this country and was very prevalent in the 1960s. So but the issue here now is taking a turn. And that is, we had Senator Graham Lindsey Graham at one point not long ago come to the table with what seemed to be a pretty good compromise. The Democrats came in and said, OK, we will partially fund the wall. You guys come in and let's get the dreamers act. Let's get let's take care of the dreamers, the kids that were brought across the border, all borders, not just from the, you know, the southern borders. And let's let's not penalize them for being in the country, from going to school, from, you know, growing up and let's let's make reasonable immigration laws that affect at least the dreamers. And that didn't happen. And there was a reversal of decisions and people's opinions. It didn't happen. And so of that one portion of immigration law, what do you think? What do you think that should be? What should we do about that? What should we do about those kids that are now in, you know, junior high and they're in high school and college, many of them in college now? What should we do about those folks? There's where I go back to this has been going on for so many years. Decisions weren't made effectively. So now we're in what, 25, 30, maybe 50 years into this. It's not going to be an easy decision to make. My answer, if we resolve it based on what I've been studying is these young people come from a certain country, they come from a certain heritage. Would they not have any desire to go back to their own country and make that country better instead of staying here? I'm not saying that they shouldn't stay here. I'm just saying, can we not give them some options to make decisions where they, if they're from Europe, a country in Europe, or a country in, you know, if they're Hispanic, if they're Chinese, I mean, it's, we seem to focus more on Hispanics than any of the others, but can we not channel that in decision making to help them consider going back to their country? Well, I would argue that a lot of the kids really have spent their whole life here. So those countries would be foreign countries to them because they really have spent their entire lives here in the United States. So I mean, that's the complexity of immigration is, you know, these kids are not, it's just not black and white. It really isn't. They love them. This is what they know. You know, they've integrated into this country. Their, you know, their language skills are very adept and they are integrated. And so, but by fact that they came across, you know, years and years and years ago, as with no documentation, they're now being considered for deportation. And does, does that kind of rub the wrong way? Well, then I take it back to this, you know, that's maybe the human factor. We have the legislative branch, the executive branch and the judicial branch in America. Congress is responsible for the decisions that they made. Therefore, we go back to the rule of law. We go back to the hard facts of what's going on. And we've got to you, we've got to go back to the boundaries, the rule of law. It's hard. It's tough. And we're not going to make every, it's not a win-win situation. It's, it's a win-lose situation. But where does the responsibility lie? Well, I'm going to have you hold that thought because we're going to hit our commercial break here. But we're going to come back to the rule of law when we get back from this break. I'm Tim Appachelle. I'm here with Judith. This is for what's on your mind, Hawaii, for Think Tech Away. Are you tired of sleepwalking through life? Are you dreaming of a healthier, wealthier, happier you? You're not alone. And that's why thousands of people tune in each week to watch R.B. Kelly on Out of the Comfort Zone Tuesdays at 1 p.m. Make a change. Get the help you need. And stop sucking at life. Hello, it's 1 p.m. on a Tuesday afternoon, and I'm your host, R.B. Kelly. Welcome to Out of the Comfort Zone. The host for Young Talent's Making Way here on Think Tech, Hawaii. We talk every Tuesday at 11 a.m. about things that matter to tech, matter to science, to the people of Hawaii with some extraordinary guests, the students of our schools who are participating in science fair. So Young Talent's Making Way every Tuesday at 11 a.m. only on Think Tech, Hawaii. Mahalo. Welcome back to What's On Your Mind, Hawaii. I'm here with Judith. And we're talking about immigration, and specifically the headlines of today is the separation of kids from their parents 2000 in the last six weeks or so. But before we took to our commercial here, we're talking about the rule of law. And Judith made a very good point. And we are a nation of laws, and we have a rule of law. And let's continue that conversation. Well, again, I go back to Congress. That's where a lot of the decisions have been made. And I think we've also discussed about administrative law and the agencies that are that Congress has developed. And they delegate a lot of the activity to the different agencies. We have several different departments that work out of the executive branch. Um, so I really do believe that as entangled as we are in the political system about immigration, we have let years and years and years go by. Today, it's getting bigger and bigger in the communication, the media, it's all right on the forefront. So therefore, it has to go back to the to the Congress, it has to go back to the legislative branch, the executive branch, what gets hit hard. It's like the president is supposed to be the one who makes all the decisions. And it all falls on him when he doesn't make the right one. Well, in this case, it's falling on our Attorney General, Jeff Sessions. And he's taken some flack here recently. And I'll tell you why. And you probably know this. He recently stated as a basis for the logic of this, this policy, which really has never been implemented before in that separation of kids from parents. He did the unusual thing of quoting biblical passage, Roman 13. And this was his quote. He said, I would cite to Apostle Paul as clear and wise commandment than Roman 13 to obey the laws of the government. As God has ordained them for this purpose of order. Now, there's a reason why I personally believe in a separation between church and state. And this is a classic example where we're talking about a very, very difficult policy that's being implemented and never before, even in back in the early 1900s, Ellis Island did not separate their children from immigrating parents. They just didn't do it. They might have been quarantined because they were concerned about maybe some kind of airborne disease or they add some, you know, all sorts of things that would warrant for quarantine, but never to separate the children from the parents. So this is something rather unusual. And I'm not certain that it makes the most sense to quote Romans 13 as a basis or as a rationale for this rather difficult policy. But we are a nation of laws. And I think both Republicans and Democrats acknowledge that. In fact, that's why no one has ever said with everyone who doesn't have documentation needs to be deported. But there was this concept, you know, maybe six months ago of some kind of compromise of a path to immigration, a path to legal immigration. And it was going to be very, very difficult points of accomplishment for people that did not have documentation to be considered as a U.S. citizen. What do you think about that path to immigration? And whether or not that is something that is a possibility to kind of work through this quagmire? Several thoughts while you were talking. The individuals that are here, they know this. They're listening, you know, the undocumented, the illegal, the legals, they know this. They understand that they're in this situation. So I go back to a couple of things, accountability, but the legal aspect. Again, I go back to the facts. In the 80s, someone can check me on this. In the 80s, we had 600,000 legal immigrants added in the 90s, some 800,000. And now we're up to about a million a year. That's adding the 600, the 800,000 a million a year. So the facts are there that how much longer can we allow this? And yes, we can use scripture. And I agree 100%. There needs to be a separation in church and state. They're separate institutions. And we could go down that path to explain that. We're not there. We don't have time to do that. But the state, the government has a responsibility. And why we had sometimes the church has difficulty in the decisions that are being made. But we can't throw out scripture and solve the problem. That solves his ease. He feels better to have an answer for the public. I think, great, maybe you can go to sleep at night. And I respect anybody in those positions as a public servant. Their job's not easy. And it's getting harder and harder and harder. But I think that, again, it's a big, fat elephant that's been going on for so many years. We've got to make these decisions. And we've got to go back to the foundation. But currently, isn't that elephant really south of Mexico? Isn't it Central America? Isn't it South America? Be it Guatemala or Honduras or El Salvador, where there is so much violence and so much poverty that these, the people that live in those countries saying, I got to get out of there. And that's why we're having the pressure right now, at least, as they travel through Mexico and then end up at our border looking for asylum. And they're trying to apply for asylum. But that's very difficult. It takes time to process. And so we have this horrible, basically logjam of humanity trying to get into the country and try to apply for a legal process of asylum. So isn't the real problem south of our borders and south of Mexico's borders? But to what degree can we do anything about that? First thought is, why the United States? Why does the United States take on this? Why is it just us taking on this issue? And I'm not adverse enough to say what Germany is doing or what some of the other countries are doing. But why is it that it's always the United States solving these problems? Yeah. Well, that's a good argument. And I think it's a very solid one. And Germany and Italy and a lot of the European countries would say, why didn't the United States take more of the Syrian refugees that Europe was suffering the onslaught of the people arriving in boats that were capsizing and horrible, horrible deaths were taking place? And so the question was, why isn't the United States taking a greater share of its refugees that are trying to flee Syria in the war in Syria? They cited Canada as taking hundreds of thousands of refugees and the United States was very limited in that. So it's a very complex question. You've raised a good one. And I doubt we're going to be able to solve it here today for what's on your mind, Hawaii. But Judith, I want to thank you. Do you have any last thoughts about what you would like to see for a solution or a possible solution on this? Yes, I do. I think being involved citizen, I do believe that it's necessary for the citizens of the United States to take our government serious and not look at the government as the problem. I think that they should look at it as what can I do myself, feet, hands, brain, whatever, education. I think we have definitely a lack in our high schools, middle schools. And also, I think we have a lack in even the university. Some of the states in one state that I work for, you have to have six credit hours of American federal and state and local government education, help the students understand how our government operates and then say participate somewhere in your local community, in your state. It's amazing. The students that I say, write your representative, they answered me back. I said, yes, they do. We pay their salary. That's what we do. Get involved. You can make a difference. So that's my, that's what I think is important is to get the, not only the young people, but the, you know, all ages, go to the polls, go, not just vote, but where can I find the representative? Who's your representative at the local level? Who's the state representative? Don't depend on somebody else to tell you about your representative. Find out what they do with your Democrat, Republican, independent. Where's the problem that I think needs to be solved and find the representative that will help you do that? Well, Judith, that was a good way to end the conversation. I think you've made some very salient points and I want to thank you very much for appearing on What's on Your Mind Hawaii. Thank you very much. I'm Tim Appichella, What's on Your Mind Hawaii for Think Tech Hawaii. Aloha. Thank you for watching our show. That's all we have for this week. Our next show is July 3rd and hope to see you on What's on Your Mind Hawaii. Aloha.