 Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to LEAD, Leading Equity and Diversity. I'm Debbie Willis, pronouns she, her, hers, and I lead the DEI certificate program here at the University of Michigan's Rackham Graduate School. We started this series because sellers wanted to hear from real people their experiences leading diversity, equity, and social justice efforts. Thank you all for joining us today. Given all this going on in the world right now, we appreciate your presence. Before we get started, please note that you can enable closed captioning, live closed captioning, by clicking the CC button on your screen. Though your audio and video are muted, we encourage you to engage in the conversation through the question and answer portal. We'd love to bring your voices into the conversation. If you see a question that interests you, please like or upvote that question as we will ask the questions with the broadest interest first. Before submitting your question, we ask that you can consider how your words might impact others. We also ask that you remain patient with us. As hundreds of you are joining us today and we have received many questions from registration, we will not get to them all in one hour. However, we are committed to continue these conversations and have dedicated this lead webinar series to address racial equity for an entire year and we invite you to join us each month. Today's conversation will address Chief Diversity Officers as Anti-Racism Advocates. As given the events of the last year, the role of diversity, I mean Chief Diversity Officer has taken an even greater importance and at least greater visibility. We have two phenomenal guests to help us lead this conversation, Dr. Robert Sellers and Dr. Katrina Wade-Goden. Let's start with brief introductions. Katrina, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey as a leader and advocate in the space of equity, inclusion and social justice? Absolutely, Debbie. And first, let me say thank you for you and your team for cultivating this space and opportunity to talk about these very important issues. And so just to give you a little bit of context in terms of how I arrived to my role currently, my interests and my work in the area really started for me as a first year student right here at the University of Michigan. And coming to the University of Michigan from a primarily, well, I won't even say primarily, all black context in terms of school environment, a family environment, church environment, et cetera. Coming to the U of M was a bit of a culture shock. And so in being in that kind of primarily African-American environment really insulated me. And so being exposed to, slights in classes, uncomfortable and insensitive interactions with peers really sparked my interest into how can I be a change advocate or a change agent in helping to resolve some of these issues? I had a prior experience in research during high school. So I sought out a research opportunity. And at that time it was very fortuitous in that the undergraduate research opportunity program was in its inaugural year. And so I was able to be a part of that program and as a result joined the Michigan student study as a first year student. And that was a study really around examining the student experiences with and perceptions of diversity at the university. And during the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s it was a time where the university was entertaining its kind of first swarming into this work with the Michigan mandate. And so being a part of the Michigan student study was a really rewarding experience. And I stayed with that study for many years through its role in supporting the university in its defense of the affirmative action policies and advocating for the educational benefits of diversity before the Supreme Court. So it was really rewarding to be a part of that team advancing those arguments. So fast forward a couple of years and now I'm in a PhD program and I'm more and more interested in the emergence of formalized structures all around the country to support the evolving what was then diversity work, right? It was, because there's a continuum in terms of, first it's diversity work and then it evolved to DNI and now we're at DE and I, right? But being interested in that, I joined forces with another individual who worked in the Office of Academic Multicultural Initiatives again here at the university. And his name was Damon Williams. He's a former CDO for the University of Wisconsin and he's currently the CEO of the Center for Strategic Diversity Leadership and Social Innovation. But we joined forces at a young age and we set out to do a really ambitious thing and that was to launch a research study with no money and no resources. We just knew we had some skillsets that we could bring to bear. We could not have known that we would have 800 institutions respond to our survey that gave us some insight nationally around the structure, the priorities and their change management processes as it relates to the Chief Diversity Officer role. Well, fast forward a couple of years that research resulted in a book, the Chief Diversity Officer, Strategy, Structure and Change Management. And so really engagement in that work really catapulted my interest in terms of studying these structures more formally and being a part of the change equation. And it was really just fortunate that by the time the book was published and was being circulated, U of M was really thinking about engaging in its own DE and I strategic plan. So enter my wonderful boss, Dr. Robert Sellers and he linked in and thought it'd be a great contribution or my efforts will be a great contribution. And so I was brought on into the team and I serve as the Deputy Chief Diversity Officer. So those are some of the key insights that kind of are key milestones in my journey to where I am now currently. Thank you so much, Rob. So in some ways my journey overlaps. Unfortunately, I came a little bit earlier to the University of Michigan, the Katrina in the mid 80s. So I was here as a graduate student in the mid 80s. My journey actually goes back a little further in the sense that I, the son of two parents who were what one might call social activists, I don't know that they would call themselves that but they were community activists, father as a minister, my mother as a nurse who went on to found a community health center in the West End in Cincinnati. And just growing up in a environment and a space recognizing racism, other inequalities in the world, a sense of purpose, a sense of duty to battle those forms of oppression wherever you can just some of the lessons that they instilled throughout my life. And so I've tried going from a graduate student in psychology and one of the ironies there is at the time being involved in the BAMU car actions. My first experience in the region's room in Fleming was during a sit-in and part of the demands that came out of those actions resulted in what is now in many ways my current position. So it was at the time the vice provost for minority affairs with Charles Moody then became a senior vice provost for just about everything with Lester Mons to its present incarnation almost 35 years ago, almost 35 years ago into the chief diversity officer and vice provost. Thank you. Thank you so much for the history. And you all have been with us for a while through all of these different roles. So it's exciting to hear that. And I can attest to the chief diversity officer. The book is a great book. So the first question we have is anti-racism has gained a lot of visibility in the past year. How has your work as chief diversity officer changed in response to the racial uprising and inequities exposed because of the pandemic? You wanna start Katrina? Sure. You know, for me, what it does is that it really crystallizes really important focal areas in our work. I think though, in a central way, we see anti-racism work as an integral component of our efforts to be diverse, equitable and inclusive. So, you know, simply put, we can't be a racist organization and be a diverse, equitable and inclusive space at the same time. So, you know, even as I look at the drill down across our five-year plan, the 2,500 plus action items, many of those action items, if you were to categorize them, can be firmly categorized as anti-racism work. And so it's really important that we see this work as not tangential or on the periphery, but it really is central to what we're doing. And in many ways, as you reflect upon what's happening in the national context or the national discourse, what's happening is that the, in many ways, the e just might be elevated if you think about DE and I, right? So, earlier in my comments, I talked about the progression. So, back in like the 1980s and 90s, we're talking about diversity. And diversity, which was primarily focused on increasing the numeric representation of predominantly brown and black folks in spaces. And then we moved to DE and I, diversity and inclusion with the understanding that just bringing diverse others to a space is not enough. We have to cultivate environments that are conducive to their being in the space. And most, you know, and more recently, the incorporation of the E. And Michigan has really been out front in terms of really committing to equity being a critical component of that construct. Because even as you look nationally, many places it's still just the DE and I and the actions and the programmatic efforts align in that way. So, I think it just has quickened and amplified our commitment to build out environments where all people, you know, especially, you know, in our current context, individuals from underrepresented backgrounds have equal treatment and equal opportunity and that everybody can really thrive and grow in our environment. So, it's really just crystallized the work around the equity component, I would say. Thank you. Did you want to add, Ron? The one thing I would add is that clearly what's happened is the events this summer, well, the events this winter and summer over the past year have really elevated issues with regards to structural racism, inequalities across the spectrum of social identities and the society. And a lot of people got woke for a minute and a lot of institutions, including this one, decided that it wanted to really focus its attention with regards to anti-racist work, which has meant we've probably spent the last year less focusing on raising awareness in lots of cases and really trying to make sure that the kinds of actions that we do fit in with understanding that racism didn't start with killing of George Floyd or Breonna Taylor. And it didn't stop with him either. And that if we really are serious about making a kind of institutional change that will be needed and the structural change that needed, then it can't just be one-off programs and initiative. It's important to react. It's important to be responsive, but it can't be tokenizing. And so I think much of our work has been focused in making sure that these actions are also integrated into a longer range view of institutional change. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that. I appreciate especially that it can't be one-off. I think we just have to keep focusing on continuing the conversation. So Rob, we are pleased to see that President Biden reversed Trump's executive order barring anti-racist training. How has federal mandates affected DEI training or the need for DEI content for you? Well, so one of the things that I'm happy about is the work that this larger U of N community has been doing, particularly over the last five years in the context of the DEI. But so one of our responses as an institution was that we signed on to a lawsuit challenging ex-President Trump's executive order. And as an institution, our effort was to continue the work that we have been doing in the past and that the notion that diversity, equity, and inclusion work and training work while we would try to be, we wouldn't go looking for trouble. At the same point in time, there was no way that we were gonna let these initiatives keep us from doing what we see as the most important work at the university. Great. So the next question we have, often when we talk about anti-racism, it becomes conflated with anti-blackness. How do we help people understand that anti-racism work is for everyone and that anti-blackness work is not trying to diminish or minimize the oppression of other groups? Yeah, I'll start on this one, Rob. When I hear that question, and it comes up rather often, Debbie, my thought goes to an MLK quote, right? It's like injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, but there's a corollary. So injustice to anyone or any group is injustice to everyone and every group, right? So that's really foundational for me as I think about that. And I even reflect on the work needed to address much of the anti-racism being felt by our Asian American Asian brothers and sisters. So it's important to know that work in this space is anti-racism work across the board. While at the same time, we need to be mindful to the fact that when you look at the various indicators across racial ethnic groups, African Americans are faring the least will across any number of indicators. And literally put, are being killed in the streets by police officers or by law enforcement. So I think what it does is it just points up in some ways a greater challenge and hence a prioritization of that work in some ways for anti-black racism work, but it does not at all diminish the need and the necessity to really engage in dismantling these systems for all groups. Did you wanna add, Rob? Yeah, I would just echo what Katrina said and she said it probably better than I can. My one fear in this position and in the work that we do is not opposition from other folks, it's division within us. Too often we are taught to think in the context of a zero sum game with a small piece of pie in different groups fighting over a small slice of a pie and any advancement or any focus on another group is somehow a diminished focus on us. And that is absolutely not the way that the real struggle is. And the only way that we're going to, again, this mantle structural oppression in all of its forms, it's all linked is to be able to address it across all of its manifestations and not to see them as competing. But again, as Katrina said, as I battle in this space, I'm also moving forward in that space and vice versa. Thank you. The next question, what are some of the strategies to support students who encounter racism in this remote environment? How can CDOs help minimize harm and foster a sense of belonging in this virtual space? Oh, that's a very good question. If I jump in on that one, I am deeply worried not only about the impact of racism, I'm deeply worried about the impact of the social isolation that we as individuals and a society are facing over the past year. So as a psychologist, I'm particularly concerned about this in terms of what is not only the short-term but also the long-term consequences. So a major important source of resilience is social support and the ability to connect with other people and be with other people. And if you look at traditional forms of support, particularly for people of color but other minoritized groups, is often the collective being together, whether it's church or whether it's family, whether it's extended family, broader social networks. And so experiencing discrimination in the context where one doesn't have that social support puts folks at the greatest level of risk. And so I'm deeply concerned about that. And so one thing that we're trying to do is to, again, find ways to create senses of community in this program being an outstanding example of that, a place where people can share experiences, can trade strategies to address experiences of discrimination and other forms of inequality, to have people who understand their experiences and can help relate and sometimes give us the check to find out, well, was that really discrimination or was that me? And sometimes it's both. You were both discriminated and you did something wrong too but we need that and particularly from a developmental standpoint. So I worry again for our students who a major part of the college experience is developing those networks and understanding who you are in that larger context, not only as a function of your formal classwork but often more importantly in terms of how you interact with other students. And so any way that we can find to, I guess first, try to eliminate discrimination to the best of our abilities where we can is important. And then second to try to find ways to create communities that allow us to develop the kinds of resilience and thriving necessary. Thank you. So higher education has a history of covering things up or claiming ignorance when they are really just looking the other way. As CDOs, how are you ensuring that reports of discrimination, harassment or other forms of inequitable treatment are being addressed? So I'll start on that one, Debbie. And this is such a critically important matter at this time at institutions across the country but also at our very institution as a result of some recent events that we endured as a community. And I will say in a foundational way that this like many other areas is an area for continued improvement. And I think some of the keystone things that we're doing is to continue to work with campus partners like our Division of Student Life, the Office of Institutional Equity and then also the various schools, colleges and units to develop the appropriate systems where number one, individuals know where they need to go to report. There's been a major amount of work that went into our climate concerns of a group on campus to again, make sure individual community members know where they need to go. And also in terms of refining and optimizing processes for when someone reports incidents of harassment and discrimination, just being very clear about the channels that one needs to engage. And another critically important part of this is education. So for those who may not know, the university did some mandatory training around sexual and gender based misconduct last year. And that was, our goal was 100% of the university, faculty and staff taking that training and we got very near, I think it was 96 or 97% to that. So I think those things in combination really helped to set the foundation for how we want to do better and we'll do better in terms of cultivating a culture where people know where to go to report concerns and to get those instances of discrimination and inequitable treatment address. So speaking of the climate culture, the university-wide climate survey found racial disparities in terms of perceived climate on campus among staff. What have we done to determine why these disparities exist and what is the university's plan to address them? Oftentimes we collect these surveys and we don't do anything with the results to address the concerns. So one of the things that we wanted to do with the surveys in particular was to make sure that the units played a significant role in addressing their particular climate because oftentimes when you talk to staff, the issue often plays out within their own particular units. A number of units utilized the reports and they were encouraged to analyze the reports, work with staff to develop practices and initiatives within their particular units to make a difference. At the university level, a number of things have come from this. One of them was the development of a staff on Bud's person. The university had had an Ons Buds person for faculty and for students, but as all too often is the case, staff's voices have traditionally been overlooked. And Jackie Bowman is our staff on Bud's person who has made a tremendous difference. Being a voice that is a voice is a voice that people can come to to understand what their options are within the university, a voice that is neutral, but by being neutral is often inherently supportive given that many of the other issues that often end up in terms of grievances and other spaces are decidedly not experienced as neutral and are not. They have a point of view in which to play. So that has been an important set of initiatives. We've also in different spaces have looked to develop opportunities around professional development and advancement. So there's been a lot of conversations in HR around looking at our current situation and how to move forward. And those conversations are still ongoing and in fact are being driven in large part by our coalition, the coalition of staff of color organizations. And I don't wanna get ahead of the process, but I'm very excited about where we're headed with regards to those conversations and larger university-wide efforts in the staff space to directly address issues of staff inequality with regards to race. And I would just jump in just to add just to really lift up the work that's happening in the units. And we know staff, as Rob suggested, is often the last constituency in many ways. And I just wanna lift up the wonderful work that's happening across the DEI strategic planning units in terms of creating really innovative opportunities for staff in particular. I reflect on some of the activities that are taking place even in, I mean, we're in the provost office, the provost office and programming in our office, you know, that's been launched by our DEI leads, that's called DEI Alive. It's a space where we come together once a month to really share and learn and reflect and build community. And, you know, it moves us out of this space of staff just putting their nose down and getting the work done, but really to explore staff as individuals and to really appreciate the many offerings that they bring to our community. But then also adding, you know, there are a number of units who are taking on a critically important work, even, you know, for example, there are a number of units who are engaging in works to better examine equity, salary equity issues at the university. So I just wanna just lift up the idea that we're addressing this work in a central way, but in many ways, the important, the most important work is happening at the unit level and, you know, where the plans actually reside. And so just wanted to spot like that. Yeah, so a couple of things, I'd have to say, the staff absolutely appreciate the addition of the staff, I'm Spudsman, and I agree, you know, Jackie Bowman has done a phenomenal job. I would be remiss not to say that she's one of my favorite people on the earth. So we appreciate that. And it was absolutely needed for staff. And also the collaborative effort of people all over campus, like you were saying, Katrina, the DEI leads, but also engaging other people and other ideas so you can do this in a way that's innovative and that they're passionate about. People are passionate about their thing and then they're more likely to do it and get buy-in from it. So I appreciate that as well. And I appreciate all the DEI implementation leads and working with them on the University of Michigan's campus is such a pleasure. Now, speaking of the efforts of DEI leaders, DEI and anti-racist efforts are prominently showed, prominently showedered by women of color who are doing this work on top of regular job duties and therefore voluntary and unpaid. Many refer to this as an invisible tax. How are we or should we be rewarding and compensating those who do DEI work on campus and make sure it's more equitably distributed as some leaders have promoted this work as reward in and of itself? You wanna start, Rob? Sure. So I'm a bit of two minds with regards to this. So I would agree 1,000% that African-American women have historically been the backbones with regards to the movement. Now, it doesn't mean that African-American men have been absent, but I think African-American women have not gotten the credit to do for the work that they've done and continue to do throughout. We've worked hard to try to do two things, to make this work more visible and doing so by working to encourage to make sure that the work that's being done is acknowledged as part of annual review processes and other spaces. We have more full-time DEI diversity leads than any other university that I'm aware of. So that's also another space in terms of the formal space. We've worked to ensure that there's recognition of the work, whether it's the Harold Johnson Award, the Distinguished Diversity Leadership Awards, the James Jackson Award, throughout the University Distinguished, sorry, University Diversity and Social Transformation Professorships. Numerous awards that say that this work is valuable and valued. And in those we try to make them as prestigious as possible. And I think that's important and that more of that needs to happen as well. The other side of this is the unfortunate fact and I always come back to my Frederick Douglass. The limits of oppression will always be set by the oppressed. Always has been, always will be. You never, at least that I'm aware of in history, have a situation where the relaxation of oppression is done by those who are doing the oppressing without a push from the oppressed. So we will always have to do the work, whether the work is paid or not, whether the work is recognized or not, if we are to move forward. Now, it's my job and our job to try to push to make sure that there are institutional support for the work where it is. But the other side of that tells me that that can't be the determinant as to whether or not we push to continue to do the work. The folks that came before us that allowed us to have this opportunity pushed even less with regards to support, et cetera. And our goal is to push to make sure that those who come after us have even more than what we do in moving forward. And that part of that legacy must also continue. So it's a both and proposition and we continue to work at it. Thank you. So I'm gonna bring in a question from our participants. It's a statement then a question. It says, it would seem that when engaging with racially and ethically diverse populations, the risk of unintentional harm due to the types of questions we ask, the responses we give or any other aspect of our engagement is high and that we could conduct our research, we need to ensure we have that we are being of service to justice. The question, with that in mind, do you think it's important for doctoral students and postdoctoral research fellows conducting research with racially and ethically diverse populations receive additional in-depth training addressing implicit racial biases? And if so, how might we encourage you of them and other universities to do this? So I would just jump in to say that I think that's just, that's good practice, you know? Like if we are in the role of building out an understanding of a phenomena or a group that we carry a level of sensitivity and knowledge and familiarity with that group. So I think those types of training opportunities are valuable, not just for postdocs or other individuals in that space. That is something I think that can add great value for sure. Yeah, and I would say from my perspective as a scholar whose career is focused on studying the role of race in the lives of African-Americans, I don't believe you can study somebody if you don't know. And it's important that we all have some understanding of the folks that we actually are studying, particularly those of us who are doing work where our work defines the reality of the people with whom we're working. And so I think it should be a requirement that, and I don't think it's just racial bias. I think it's, you can't say that you understand the experiences of Asian-American women and you don't, the only Asian-American women you know are your graduate student and the one colleague in your department, that if you're really going to do this work and understand the breadth of diversity of experiences that one has to actually get to know folks, which means that one has to venture into waters where one may say the long thing. And one will have to learn how to interact effectively, respectfully with people that are different from us. It is a skill that many people for being traditionally minoritized groups learn all the time. And so it's a skill that we all should be working at. And they should be worked at both in formal ways, whether it's through programs like IGR or some of the training programs that organizational learning is providing. But it also has to happen in informal ways. And some of those informal ways are gonna be painful across and both spaces. But if we're really talking about creating a environment and creating individuals who are competent to study or provide services to a community, they have to see and experience that community as human and not as different. Great. I'll bring in another question from the participants. Many graduate students have been frustrated with the lack of progress in the long term as you alluded to. Specifically, they found many trainings like the DEI certificate program and resources helpful, but I've seen very little progress on changes to the university policing and other measures of accountability. And the roadmap is less clear at this point. What would you suggest that graduate students can do to move institutions like the University of Michigan in substantial ways besides participating occasionally in DEI seminars? So, I'll just start here. As I reflect on the nature of the challenges around this work, right? It's this idea that or this perceived lack or the existence of a lack of a sense of agency in affecting the change equation, you know? So, knowing that, so be absolutely beyond the dialogues, beyond participate in periodic trainings, we have to ask ourselves, what can we do as individuals to impact our personal relationships, our, you know, things that are occurring within our neighborhoods or environments close to us in our community and here at the university. So, it has to be a pivot towards action. And I think that, you know, from a graduate student perspective, that there are a number of different ways to engage. So, you know, there are various graduate student organizations that you can be a part of. I know SCORE there and RACM, you know, just embedded in the work of advancing, understanding, knowledge, familiarity around these issues, being able to partner with faculty in very meaningful ways. And a lot of that is happening across campus. What I fear is that not a lot of the good work that's happening with either in, with graduate students solely or in partnership with faculty or other campus partners is not highlighted. So, I think a lot of good work is going on. I just think that, I know for, I shouldn't say, I think I know a lot of good work is going on, just given our vantage point. But it's just familiarizing yourself as a student, whether that's undergrad or graduate in just what actually is occurring before making the assumption that nothing is happening because that it has not been proven true in many spaces. Yeah, I wanna sort of second that. So, you know, Einstein is absolutely right. Time is relative. And now that I've gotten old, it rings even more true in terms of, I think it's important not to be discouraged. And one way not to be discouraged is to think about your work in a broader context. So, I've always thought it's important to think about ourselves as links and chains that the best piece of advice I got in taking this position, one of the best pieces from Charles Moody, the first person in this was, it took the University of Michigan 200 years to get to be like this. And it ain't gonna change overnight no matter what you do. It's gonna take time and it's gonna take piecemeal brick by brick by brick to make those changes. And the reality is none of us, none of us on this Zoom is going to be here the day that the University of Michigan becomes completely diverse, equitable and inclusive. I don't know that anybody that is born that it will be completely diverse, equitable and inclusive and there won't be work that'll be done. As long as there's a University of Michigan, there will be work that is done. And as long as there's a United States of America, there'll be work that needs to be done. And as long as there's an Earth, there'll be work that is needed to be done. But within that, also being able to be definitive in the nature of the contributions that you wanna make. First, it's important to understand what your role here as graduate students. And I'm assuming, and I don't wanna make that assumption, but I'm gonna do it anyway, that you're a person of a traditionally minoritized group or at least you care enough about that to write the question. But you have, in my mind, two responsibilities. That's the way I was raised. One, you have a responsibility to make sure that you leave here making the University of Michigan a better place than it was for folks like you than what it was when you got here. And in ways, hopefully, that will signal change. And those ways aren't going to be that you're gonna change the University of Michigan and in discrimination in the University of Michigan or in structural racism, sexism, homophobia in the University of Michigan. It's not gonna be an open access university in your time here. But you can make differences in your own space. You can make sure that your department is opened up with regards to its admissions process by recruiting other people from your community, working with your faculty in your departments to make changes in the way in which they work with and view graduate students, particularly traditionally underrepresented graduate students. And those changes make a difference because that's the next person that comes in and keeps the door open a little bit more for two more people and four more people and 10 more people. And not only do they make a difference in Michigan, but for those of you who are graduate students in particular, they wanna make a difference in your field because you can't make a difference in your field by yourself with one or two, which gets me to the second point, then I'll shut up, I'm now in preaching mode. To understand that University of Michigan is just one stop, your job was not to completely fix the University of Michigan. Your job was to get a degree here, make it a better place and then go be successful and then go to the next place and make it a little bit better. That's how we as a people have been able to move forward and to survive and not only survive but thrive through all kinds of forms of oppression. And if you're able to do that, then you will be successful. And ultimately the University of Michigan will be successful because it will also provide more opportunities to folks that didn't because you're here. So don't always think that it's going to be one big thing that's gonna make the change. Oftentimes small things make all kinds of changes. I'll give you one small example of that. I'm sorry, I know I was gonna shut up but I couldn't help it. So basically score is a small example of that where there were six folks in a room after a party that decided that there needed to be a organization that addressed graduate students of color. That was 40, almost 30 something years ago, 1986 and it's still alive and it's still around and it's still making a difference. Absolutely. All right, I'm gonna bring it, oh, go ahead, Katrina. You know, I just wanna, since we're in this graduate student space, I just wanna present one thing and that's because I've worked with a variety of different graduate students over the years and I just want to make sure that it's centered and Rob, you spoke a little bit to this, what your role is in terms of being here and getting your degree because we have benefited from the work of a lot of graduate students as it relates to the DE and I space but many of those individuals left this institution without a degree and so just really centering the fact that you are here to get a degree and to be able to use that as a vehicle and a tool to further enhance the environments as Rob alluded to. So it requires just navigating the balance, being committed to this work but scaling it in a way that you are still attentive to your priority of being a student and getting what you need to have done because that's been one of the most disheartening things that I've observed over my time here at the university and then just underscoring again this opportunity, the idea that one person can make an incredible difference. One of the individuals that worked with me made a very impactive difference in her school as it related to the number of underrepresented students coming through and so you can affect change. Right. Okay, we have to get to at least two more questions from the participants because they've been upvoted and we have six minutes. So in the culture change, in culture change work, it is vital to have policy realignment, processes, updates, resource allocation, people info data, culture and human behavior change. All happening simultaneously, long lasting change occurs. Can you please talk more about the policy and infrastructure change you're proposing on working on to create a stronghold of DEI as an integral part of U of M? Me or Katrina? Doesn't matter. How about you start, Rob? So I'm actually trying to figure out how many, so the first one I would say is actually the DEI strategic plan. The fact that A, we're all sitting here talking about DEI and we know what DEI means, that we're all doing this as something different. B, that we have 50, so I'm talking fast because I have a lot to say but I wanna say it short. You got a structure, not volunteers but a structure, radical change where you got 50 DEI leads, well, actually closer to 200 DEI leads that are embedded in the structure. DEI is part of the budget process. So when you start talking about resources, so it's been linked to perhaps the most important accountability structure that we have at the university which is the actual budget structure. We've had numerous changes with regards to policies everything from the having DEI work be counted as part of the annual review process and some schools and colleges are working towards having it as part of the promotion and tenure process for faculty to have it embedded into hiring practices and changing training with respect to that, having the, I just lost my thought, but having numerous kinds of changes where it's part of the hiring process with regards to university leaders. So both search committees and ultimate university leaders now meet with a representative of my office, usually myself as a fundamental part of the search process. The inclusive teaching initiatives where every school and college has a faculty member who is part of a community working on developing more inclusive teaching techniques to be able to train other faculty and other GSIs on how to be more effective teachers with the support of CRLT. Numerous non, quote unquote, diversity related units having added center a diversity commitment and focus whether it's CRLT or academic innovations as just two larger examples of service units where DEI is not necessarily, should be, I shouldn't say should be, would not necessarily be seen as part of their mission. It is fundamentally written into what they do. The work at Rackham, if nothing else, the work at Rackham very few places have a Debbie Willis there very, very few places not only have a Debbie Willis but an Ephraim Brammer, all the many other people working as fundamentally a part of what they do is DEI in support of graduate students. So I'm again, I think there's a lot more work that needs to be done, but across each of those different points, I'm very proud of the work that's being done by the larger university community. Cause the other thing that Dr. Moody said is don't let them make DEI be all about you. If they're not going to give you everybody else's paycheck, then don't do everybody else's work. Make it everybody else's, make it everybody's work. So I'll shut up there. Yeah, that just highlights this idea that point leadership while important, it can't be the only thing, you know, at a unit level or even in central position, everyone has to pull the wagon and unit leadership sets the tone. Absolutely. So with that, I'll say, unfortunately, the hour always goes so fast. So, but it's one o'clock and I wanna stay within our time. So I greatly, greatly, greatly appreciate you, Rob and Katrina, I know everything that's going on. I don't even know half of the things, but I know a lot of things that you're going, that you're working on right now. So I appreciate you taking this hour with us today. I will say in the chat, lots of graduate students were very thankful for the time you spent talking about graduate students and talking directly to graduate students. So I greatly appreciate that as well. I just want to thank all of our guests who joined us today all like for the whole time, we appreciate you being here. I want to appreciate Dean Michael Solomon, the Dean of Rackham Graduate School. As you say, Rob, Rackham Graduate School is very deeply committed to this equity work. And, you know, like you said, Katrina, it starts with the leader. And so I am like very appreciative of that. And I want to invite everyone to join us. Well, we saved these questions, like some of the questions that came in today were phenomenal questions. And we will try to get to them eventually, so I'll let you know that. Next month, we have Dr. Daphne Watkins of University of Michigan and Dr. John Wallace of Pittsburgh, but he used to be at University of Michigan. And they will be talking about how universities can work their efforts towards racial equity in the community. And they're both like phenomenal examples of that. So we hope that you will join us there. Lastly, all of our webinars are on our early webinar playlist that are on the Rackham YouTube list, so you can revisit those there. With that, thank you everyone for joining us today and we'll see you next month, March 12th. Bye, everyone. Thank you.